Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht

Mental Health Supports in Schools and Tertiary Education: Discussion

Chairman

I remind members to ensure mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment of the Houses, even if on silent mode. Are the minutes of the meeting of 22 November agreed? Agreed.

We will have two sessions today. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Ms Áine Lynch, CEO of the National Parents Council Primary, NPCP; Mr. Paul Rolston, communications director of the National Parents Council Post-Primary, NPCPP; Mr. Paul Gilligan, CEO of St Patrick's Mental Health Services; and Ms Hilary McAlea, principal of Corpus Christi National School in Moyross, Limerick. The witnesses are here to discuss mental health supports in schools and tertiary education. I will invite them to make brief opening statements of five minutes each. The committee will publish the opening statements on its website following the meeting.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the chair to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative to comply with such direction. Following the opening statements, there will be exchanges with members. I invite Ms Lynch to make her opening remarks.

Ms Áine Lynch

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear today to discuss the topic of mental health supports in schools and tertiary education and, indeed, for its interest and dedication to this urgent issue. The NPC’s vision statement aspires to an Ireland where every child has the opportunity to reach his or her full potential. While the NPC’s core focus is education, it is clear that children’s mental health has a significant impact on realising this vision.

Since 2015, the NPC has been providing supports to parents to support their children’s mental health. It is through this engagement that we hear regularly, directly from parents, about the challenges they face in this area. Since 2015, the demand for our supports has risen, with just over 1,700 parents attending our sessions in 2015 and more than 3,000 now attending each year. In addition, during the pandemic we ran a four-week webinar, again supporting parents to support their children’s mental health, with in excess of 7,500 parents attending. Time and time again parents express concern about their children’s mental health, ranging from anxiety and social difficulties to more serious concerns. Each time they tell us that they cannot access any support despite numerous attempts to do so, even privately, or their child is on a long waiting list.

Ireland committed to promoting all children’s rights, including the right to health, when it ratified the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, UNCRC, in 1992. Ireland was last examined by the committee in 2016. At that time, the committee expressed several concerns relating to mental healthcare, including the long waiting times for treatment, the lack of access to out-of-hours support and children being admitted to adult psychiatric wards owing to inadequate availability of mental healthcare facilities for children. The committee recommended that Ireland improve the capacity and quality of its mental healthcare services for children and adolescents. In an evaluation for the EU Commission of the 2011 Council Recommendation on Early School Leaving, Donlevy et al. found that emotional counselling supports in and around schools are widespread in many EU countries. This research suggested that Ireland is radically behind in the provision of such services in comparison to many European countries. Despite a robust evidence base showing the value in safeguarding and promoting mental health in childhood, Ireland's child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, have a number of significant issues, which combined, diminish primary school children’s access to mental healthcare. These include a lack of services at community and school level, along with excessive waiting lists for specialist mental health treatment services. There is an urgent need for additional school-based mental health supports for primary school children in Ireland.

A relatively new service, called mental health support teams, has been developed in the UK over the past three years, which I know the members have seen and heard much about. It offers a model through which primary school children can receive the mental health awareness and support they require. The NPC believes that a service based on this model should be established in Ireland on a pilot basis as a matter of urgency, and that subject to evaluation, the service should be expanded and made available on a national basis. The service would need cross-departmental and interagency partnership, particularly across the Departments of Health and Education. Such a service would not only strengthen and support the mental well-being of thousands of children, but would also support parents and teachers, and would reduce the number of children requiring specialist mental health treatment and support from CAMHS, as has been evidenced in the UK.

The NPC welcomes the recent funding announcement of €5 million to establish a pilot mental health support service in primary schools. It is the NPC’s belief that this funding will be most effectively used piloting a robust wraparound, whole-school-community approach to mental health supports in primary school. This type of service, as demonstrated in the UK, has the potential to make a real difference to children’s lives. We caution against putting single counselling interventions into schools without the other supports offered by the mental health support teams. This has been tried in other jurisdictions and has shown to have many governance and implementation difficulties. I thank the committee again for inviting me to attend today on behalf of parents.

Chairman

I thank Ms Lynch. I call Mr. Rolston.

Mr. Paul Rolston

On behalf of the NPCPP, I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak today and to discuss this issue. Much research and numerous studies over many years now confirm that we do not look after many of our young people very well. The NPCPP welcomes the current debate in the hope that this will trigger productive action to support our young people in society, prepare them better to manage life issues now and in the future. These days, it is the whole school community that educates our children and not just our schools. Our children and adolescents learn and are influenced in class in school but also in our communities and online.

Many of the causes of mental health issues among our children stem from our non-focus on areas of personal well-being. Our education system needs, as its core purpose, to prepare, support, protect and empower the child, adolescent or student through their educational journey and for the journey to prepare them effectively for their future lives. Part of our problem is that we have too often focused on traditional education and our institutions rather than on our pupils.

We must provide an education system in which our children actually live and learn about respect, dignity and self-worth through what we teach and what they learn by way of adult and peer example. Our education system and surrounding discussions have begun to understand the critical importance of teaching about matters other than traditional subjects. Knowledge of these traditional subjects is of little value if one’s mental health is compromised and a lack of learning around any of those subjects will not result in the potential devastation or tragedy in a young person’s future that ignorance of life skills, respect or coping mechanisms might bring.

The pace at which we introduce more learning for life subjects and topics and put in place the knowledge, mechanisms and funding in our school communities necessary to address these issues needs to increase significantly. The stress and anxiety that children and adolescents experience through their youth damage their ability to live happily and will affect them for the rest of their lives. Our focus must therefore address these shortcomings as an integral part of our education system.

I will provide some hard and cold facts and statistics for consideration around adolescent stress, anxiety and suicide. Some 24% of our young people are experiencing high levels of anxiety and 14% are suffering from depression, a high proportion of them by the time they are 13 years old. A Dublin City University, DCU, research survey and study in 2019 found that four out of ten adolescents self-reported symptoms of depression and anxiety, while 57% of our leaving certificate students have experienced a physical or mental health issue as a result of the examination cycle. It has been found that 75% of students experience a lot of extreme stress around the leaving certificate and 71% have indicated anxiety as the chief issue. Stress is consistently associated with suicide ideation. Among Irish males aged under 25, suicide was the number one cause of death in 2019. For females in the same age bracket, suicide was the third highest cause of death in the same period.

On bullying prevalence and the short- and long-term effects, the NPCPP's recent survey of parents indicates that 40% of respondents have at least one child who has experienced bullying in school. This NPCPP survey also indicates that while 82% of respondents' schools have an anti-bullying policy in place, 43% of parents do not find the school policy accessible or easily understood and 35% have found their schools' response to bullying to be unsatisfactory. In childhood and adolescence, peer victimisation is frequently associated with internalising problems, such as anxiety and depression, and a decrease in self-worth and self-esteem. Children who have been the victims of bullying have been consistently found to be at higher risk for internalising problems and, in particular, concerning diagnoses of anxiety disorder and depression in young and middle adulthood.

On educational curriculums and methods of assessment, this committee and most of us at the education table have been reminded on numerous occasions that in 2016 the UN Committee on the Rights of Children recommended that Ireland reform the leaving certificate as the terminal examination was found to be causing a disproportionate level of mental stress to young people. We can remind ourselves again that education experts say that a combination of a high-stakes examination and a hugely competitive points system means there is little emphasis on a more rounded education. Our current system is lacking in crucial areas and is the cause of significant problems for many of our young people. Our third level colleges indicate that school-leavers are emerging from our exam-obsessed second-level system taught to the test and not having learned how to think or explore for themselves.

In summary, school and home must work closely together in today’s educational world. A whole-school anti-bullying programme must be implemented in all schools as a matter of urgency, and at latest by September 2023. Models are implemented in some schools and are readily available to assist roll-out. Subject and curriculum changes must create fit-for-purpose senior and junior cycles and they must be activated immediately. Methods of assessment for junior and leaving certificate must be adjusted to relieve stress and to better reflect pupils’ learning and knowledge. NPCPP assures all concerned of our commitment to assist, develop and deliver systems where student health and wellbeing is protected, where mutual respect becomes the default position and where each student’s talent is nurtured and their self-esteem strengthened.

Mr. Paul Gilligan

I thank the joint committee for the invitation to attend. Significant numbers of children aged 13 and under are experiencing mental health difficulties and are not receiving the help they require. Many others are likely experiencing difficulties that are going undetected.

Experience of mental ill-health and poor emotional wellbeing can have a significant adverse impact on a child’s experience and attainment at school, their friendships and family relationships and their day-to-day life. When problems are unidentified or the child is unsupported and-or appropriate and timely help is not provided, a child can deteriorate.

Under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, every child has a right to the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health. This right covers the full spectrum of health and wellbeing. The guaranteeing of the right require a comprehensive multisectoral response through integrated systems that involve parents, peers, the wider family and schools and the provision of support and assistance through trained staff. The United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child endorses a public health and psychosocial support approach to mental health rather than just the medicalisation or institutional approach.

In 1992, Ireland committed to promoting all children’s rights, including the right to health, when it ratified the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Ireland was last examined by the committee in 2016 and, at that time, the committee expressed several concerns relating to mental healthcare, including the long waiting times for treatment, the lack of access to out-of-hours support and children being admitted to adult psychiatric wards, owing to inadequate availability of mental healthcare facilities for children. The committee recommended that Ireland improve the capacities, capabilities and quality of its mental healthcare services for children and adolescents.

Evidence indicates that children and adolescents experiencing even the most severe mental health difficulties can, with the right support at the right time, make a full recovery and live fulfilling and productive lives. Given the limited number of community specialist mental health services and child inpatient beds, it is critical that community and school-based care for children is resourced. While the recent announcement by the Department of Education for funding of a pilot programme for primary schools to provide specialist counselling supports is a step in the right direction, it is vital to invest adequately upstream and develop a co-ordinated multi-agency response to initial presentations of need to prevent conditions worsening over time.

It is now imperative that a primary schools mental health service is established. Such a service would not only strengthen and support the mental health wellbeing of thousands of children, but would also support parents and teachers and would reduce the number of children requiring specialist mental health treatment and support from child and adolescent mental health services.

A service called mental health support teams, developed in the UK over the past two years, offers a model through which primary school children could receive the mental health awareness and support they require. A similar service being run in Moyross in Limerick is also indicating positive outcomes. It is our proposal that such a service based on this model be established in Ireland on a pilot basis as a matter of urgency, and that subject to evaluation, the service be extended and made available on a national basis.

I thank the committee members for their time.

Ms Hilary McAlea

I thank the committee for inviting me to make a statement on behalf Corpus Christi Primary School. Corpus Christi, through its Moyross education support programme, which is supported by philanthropy, Rethink Ireland and the Limerick Regeneration programme, has independently adopted a whole-school wrap-around model approach to supporting children and families. This is also known as a community partnership network model, which is, in essence, the delivery of therapeutic and family support services at our newly built and philanthropically-funded integrated wellness hub on-site in the school, namely, the Corpus Christi Family Centre.

Our model is based on models of best practice in the US, such as the Harlem Children’s Zone, City Connects and the University of Central Florida’s community partnership network model. In the United States, government policy has looked to increase the awareness of the links between adverse childhood events, ACEs, and the necessity for multi-agency collaboration that has driven the concept of intergovernmental departments working together. In Ireland, I am delighted to say I am hearing about how the Government is now looking at establishing a no wrong door policy, whereby no matter what door a person knocks on somebody will respond to his or her bespoke needs and not refer that individual to another door. In Corpus Christi Primary School, community services such as psychological interventions, speech and language therapy, occupational therapy, after-school programmes, nurture club, and employment and housing supports, address the needs of the children and families in Moyross in a way that meets them where they are at in their own community, rather than the ad hoc manner in which children in Ireland access vital public services, a system that we know first-hand has had less impact for the children and families in our school.

In tune with our new model of delivery, we are now broadening our service provision to the families and members of the local community as they face challenges in housing, training and employment, areas that have a direct and immediate effect on children. We are also looking at supporting local primary schools to develop their own community partnership network model. Regeneration in Limerick sowed the seed for dynamic system change in how we could potentially support all families in Ireland. The importance of this initial investment from the Government and European structural and investment funds, ESIF, cannot be underestimated. Once Corpus Christi began to show how our innovative model of child and family support can work in schools in Ireland, we were able to approach philanthropists both here in Ireland and abroad. Following on from this, we were chosen by Rethink Ireland as a project under the youth mental health fund. Rethink Ireland has helped us to amplify and deepen our impact in the school and begin to sow the seeds of change across Limerick.

All children and all families in Ireland should be able to access bespoke supports in their own communities. Ireland is ready for deep system change. Our model of therapeutic and family support has been achieved thanks to close community-based collaboration among other actors in the statutory, community, voluntary and private sectors. We have succeeded in providing easier access to tailored and flexible services that support the children and their families' actual needs. These supports help families to make positive changes that enable them to have productive, happy, fulfilled lives. All stakeholders involved in the project recognise the need to move past a siloed, profession-centric approach when working with vulnerable families. A moral compass permeates the relationships between key players in Limerick City and County Council, the HSE, Tusla, Mary Immaculate College, MIC, Technological University of the Shannon, TUS, University of Limerick, UL, Engage and philanthropy in Limerick.

Public funding is limited but the will among key stakeholders to change the status quo is gathering momentum in Limerick. Sheer hard work and a shared vision have brought us to where we are. Policy formulation that directly benefits the children of Ireland should be the primary statutory responsibility of Government interdepartmental partners in the areas of housing, enterprise, trade and employment, poverty, policing, social and family affairs, education and health. The Ministers and Secretaries General from each of the Departments responsible for these areas should have a statutory duty to work together as a group to streamline supports and create a working synergy, whereby supports and interventions are delivered directly on the ground in local schools and community hubs. There is a need to revise outdated and restrictive arrangements in current working practices within Government agencies that do not serve the best interests of our children. Unconditional positive regard, care and empathy are what are needed for children and families in Ireland.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I thank the witnesses for their presentations, which I found fascinating. We have had quite a number of presentations on this issue. I welcome the young people who are present to witness our deliberations because this issue obviously affects them too. We have heard quite a number of presentations from different agencies and actors over the past number of weeks. The feeling is that there is a tsunami of a mental health crisis across our school system and among our young people.

I want to touch on a few points. I am taken by the model in Limerick. It sounds like it is excellent and it is working, but what depresses me is that it took such philanthropic funding to set it up. This can be the nature of things. I will make a few points that I often make. Our educational system is not built around children. It is built around what anybody else wants, but not what is best for children. It is built around what the actors who are inherent in the education system want, including teacher unions, patron bodies or the Department. We rarely hear directly from children or their parents. The system is deliberately set up like that, constitutionally, which is a problem. The State does not feel as if it has a de facto management role. It funds the system, but it does not feel like it manages it, necessarily. The system at second level is primarily exam focused, and when we try to reform that we are met with resistance. There was massive resistance to junior certificate reform, and we are currently being met with significant resistance to leaving certificate reform. When I look at the young people in the Gallery today, I wince at the thought of what I went through as a young person in secondary school. It has not changed in all that time. It is intensely stressful to go from what can be quite a compassionate environment at primary level to a very subject-orientated environment. It is not possible for students to build relationships with 40-minute classes. The change to that type of atmosphere at second level is a difficult one for young people to get their heads around. I want to speak to how we can reform that.

I will make what might be regarded as a controversial point. On the introduction of a model at primary level that provides the wraparound services that have been discussed, the problem is that there are 3,300 primary schools in Ireland. There are a lot of schools. If we want to provide services that are going to properly assist those children, having 3,300 schools is the difficulty. A service cannot be provided in each and every one of those schools, so we have to find a mechanism that enables us to do it effectively. We need a critical mass in order to provide that service. Perhaps that is an unfair thing to say.

I have a few questions for the witnesses. First, how can we manage our education system to ensure the primacy of the child's experience in the overall policy setting? Second, I ask the witnesses to comment on the over-emphasis on exams and exam pressure at second level. Third, if we do advocate, as we should, for this type of wraparound service that is freely available to young people, teachers and schools, how do we manage that in a system that has such a multiplicity of schools right across the country? There are 4,000 schools in total, 3,300 of which are at primary level.

Ms Áine Lynch

I might leave the second issue for Mr. Rolston to comment on because he has experience at second level. In terms of where the child is in the system, I think it is excellent that the committee is meeting with students later. That is important. We also need to step beyond that and engage with primary school students as well. It is often seen as more challenging, but anybody who has worked with primary school children knows that they have a very significant voice on matters that make a difference to them. We have to make sure that we carry on doing what we are doing today by listening to students, but we must ensure that we are listening to students throughout the whole school system and being guided by their needs. I have heard mention of putting the student at the centre of education. I think we need to go beyond that and say that we accept that the student is at the centre of education. We are not putting them there; they are there. That should become a common way to discuss the matter. If a student is at the centre of their education, then it makes sense that we listen to their views on everything that matters to them.

On how the pilot or model would work, in the UK they cluster schools together. There are also small primary schools there, perhaps not as many as there are here. It is part of the system in the UK. Each cluster covers 7,000 students. The mental health support team covers a cluster of schools, going up to around 7,000 students.

Sometimes secondary schools would be clustered with feeder primary schools as well. This is about how pooling is done. We have some good examples now of how clustering is working here in respect of small schools in particular. The model being developed would be built on. It fits nicely into it.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I think Mr. Rolston wishes to comment on the examinations aspect.

Mr. Paul Rolston

This will not be the first time we have spoken about these issues and our opening statement centred on exactly this subject. We have been speaking about this to death. It is very frustrating for this to be ongoing. Much as we value this meeting, as I said, I hope it will act as a springboard to some real action being taken. In fairness, we are seeing action in some areas, for example, the whole school anti-bullying report which is due to be published in December. I refer to these kinds of scenarios, where there is implementation across the whole school community and initiatives are embedded and create a culture in schools which educates children, staff, parents and everyone in the community to look after our children and enables them to be able to look after us.

I have several points to make regarding the examination system. I already referred to the report from 2016 which stated the leaving certificate is not fit for purpose. This finding is six or seven years old now - my maths may not great but it is too long ago. It is a whole secondary school lifespan in which nothing has happened on this issue. Things are being addressed and four new subjects will be coming into the leaving certificate curriculum in two years, but, by and large, learning about geography, mathematics or English does little to help people live their lives in today's world. As beautiful as Shakespeare's prose is, it is not going to support people when they face bullying or an examination where the stress overwhelms them and they cannot even remember Shakespeare's name, let alone what they have to write in the paper.

When we speak about children in this context, the purpose of education is to educate our children for their future lives and careers. The vast majority of people working in business these days will learn as they go along. They will learn in third level education and as they develop. Fundamentally, they must have confidence built within themselves. They must learn that the core aspect of learning is to understand one's own potential and ability. We must adjust our education system to create these scenarios and bring in subjects that are only now just touched on. The changes in SPHE should be broadened out massively so that our children know how to understand themselves and interact and respect each other. These are critical aspects, yet they get a couple of token slots in a week or a year, while we hammer down on this results-based leaving certificate examination when everything people do in their lives depends on two weeks, effectively, at the end of sixth year. It is total and utter insanity.

Part of the problem was emphasised during Covid-19. The pandemic focused many of our minds on many different things. When we first suggested there was a possible alternative method of assessment, which we and many others in the education system had spoken about for many years pre-Covid as well, the resistance was unbelievable. The default position was that we would still have a seated exam, regardless of the whole country being shut down and people being unable to go outside their doors. This was insanity. From this perspective, where could we go?

What did happen during Covid was that there was a push, and it primarily came from the parents and the students together, to say that alternative methods of assessment had to be found. They were found and they were found to work, by and large. The vast majority of people were pretty okay and happy with the results. We were never going to have perfection, but we do not have it now. It is a long way away. Other methods of assessment are definitely available and have been demonstrated around Europe and the rest of the world. We have to adjust to these scenarios. We must primarily teach our children to be able to learn for themselves. That must be the key focus of our education, not the six or eight subjects pupils must choose to score as many points or as close to 100% as they can in six topics during the course of the leaving certificate examinations.

They are aspects from the point of view of mental health. We need to look after their mental health to allow them to learn.

Ms Hilary McAlea

Our model is bespoke and I accept that. We have looked at other models. I named three and each of those is unique to its district - the Harlem Children’s Zone in New York, City Connects in Boston and the community network model in Florida. What we did was to listen to our student voice, our student council and our parent voice, and then, from that, our model emerged. That is how it was built. We started with the therapeutic supports and then the family supports with regard to housing and education.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I too welcome the fifth and sixth year students who I met earlier. It is very important that they are here and I thank them for taking the time out. I saw the leaving certificate student in particular nodding to much of what Mr. Rolston was saying in regard to the anxiety and stress around the leaving certificate.

The remarkable thing in Ms Lynch's presentation was where she outlined that it was 1992 when we committed to promoting all of the children's rights, including the right to health, and that was ratified at the United Nations. None of these young people were born at that time and here we are, still talking about what we are going to do about it. When it was examined by the committee in 2016, I doubt if these young people had started secondary school, or perhaps they were just into it. I will talk about the pilot project shortly but we have had so many pilot projects that it really is disgraceful.

Even though we have been looking at this for a number of weeks in these sessions, some new issues have been thrown up today that I want to discuss with the witnesses. Ms Lynch talked about her work with parents, in particular the 3,000 parents attending the sessions each year. I ask her to provide further details on those sessions, where they are held and who they are delivered by. I will ask my questions first and then give Ms Lynch a chance to answer.

The other question I want to ask Ms Lynch is around the risks of piloting the single counselling interventions rather than the wraparound, whole-of-community approach. I too have concerns about this, in particular the way the money is allocated and the hours are bought in, and that is the job done. Here we will be in 15 or 20 years' time, again discussing the same issues around this. That is not only at primary or secondary level, but also at tertiary level. We all collectively need to guard against that. It has to be stopped because it is not a solution to what we need.

Ms McAlea spoke about the wider social issues, and housing was mentioned. With regard to the escalating housing challenges, I ask how that is impacting her work and how that has changed over the years. I will start with those questions, in particular the cost of the model that Ms McAlea is operating, how long it has been running and how we make sure it is mainstreamed and is not just contained there. I like the idea of having the cluster schools together, as we already have. I particularly like the idea of the secondary and the feeder primaries working together because there is then a history and a knowledge to be able to provide the supports that are needed and to target them in the way that is needed.

Ms Áine Lynch

The first question was around our parents sessions. In 2012, we started doing sessions with parents, supported by the Department of Education, around anti-bullying and it was part of the new action plan on bullying. When we started doing those sessions, we were talking about things like resilience with children and how to promote it. We touched on it through active listening and developing that parent-child relationship. Parents told us they wanted more of that and they wanted to know more about how to support their children's positive mental health.

At that time, we partnered with St. Patrick's Mental Health Services, and the background to why our report was written together is that we have been working together for some time on that.

We developed the session with St. Patrick's Mental Health Services, based on our understanding of parenting and its expertise around mental health services and supporting young people and children in that area. We now deliver those sessions in schools with groups of parents. We have a panel of trainers who do a lot of other training that we do as well and they deliver those sessions face-to-face. Over Covid we did them online. We were not quite sure whether they would be effective online but they were exceptionally effective, so we now have a mixed model. We do some of the sessions online and we do others in schools with groups of parents. They get very positive evaluations from the parents, and we evaluate all sessions. That has continued. In the last three years we have extended it to early years education, so we now provide a different session to parents of children in early years settings about how to promote positive mental health among young children and carry that on through. They have been working very well.

The difficulty with the single counselling sessions is that we are responding to two different things. We are trying to respond to early intervention and prevention, which is the model we are looking at in the clustering. We know there are many children and young people in crisis at the moment. The desire to help children who are in crisis at the moment is sometimes where the idea of single counselling sessions comes from. We know setting up a cluster model is not going to take a long time, but it is about the child experiencing the difficulty now. We are constantly balancing between trying to support the child in crisis now and developing a long-standing model, so I see where the single counselling sessions have come from. My concern about them is that it is not a well-governed system. You buy it in and it comes in, but who is responsible? Who is responsible for the qualifications of the counsellors? Who is responsible for the supervision and guidance of support in the school? Who is ensuring the student in the middle of it is getting the most effective support they need? How does the principal access it? It is not a principal's area of expertise to know which counselling services to bring in, so that is a concern.

When you look at the model that talks about clustering schools and putting wraparound services in place, you are talking about supporting teachers in their role, supporting the students in individual and group work and supporting parenting. That model for better outcomes for children has been shown in evidence to have a much bigger impact. We have shifted from understanding that the supports need to be where the child is, which is in the school and not in a health centre somewhere, to having to understand what are the best supports to have in that centre. Ensuring they are multidisciplinary and approaching that early intervention and prevention piece is essential in that. I hope that answers the question.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

It does, in part. I want to ask Ms McAlea about her model.

Ms Hilary McAlea

Our model is bespoke in that it responds to the needs of individual pupils in schools. I am currently the acting principal. I have been the deputy principal and the home-school liaison co-ordinator. I was also a junior infant teacher for years. We speak about housing and homelessness and about when the housing crisis started. There is hidden homelessness in Moyross. The houses were knocked. It was in cases of families living intergenerationally in the home that we started to see developmental delays for some of the children. There was no space to go down on the ground and learn to crawl. A child who is living between nana's house and mam's house during the day might spend a lot of time in their stroller or buggy going up and down. The public health nurses, PHNs, and the local speech and language therapists, SLTs, noticed this and pointed it out to us in school. This is where we constantly developed and evolved our model to support our families. We brought in our own play therapist and our own adult counsellor. She worked from the back of the church initially. We now have our own dedicated family centre but the counsellor became known as the lady at the back of the church.

Our current principal, Tiernan O'Neill, is seconded to the council at the moment. He was the home-school liaison co-ordinator and was going out into the homes and realising what the need was on the ground. This has constantly evolved as we have seen the need. It became apparent that housing and employment were often the fundamental reasons people came looking for counselling and supports and children were suffering from anxiety and low self-esteem. We then realised we needed a family support worker, in addition to the home-school liaison co-ordinator, dedicated to the housing and supports piece alone. Again, another philanthropic funder supported us with our family support worker.

That key worker is now working with local companies in Limerick, including Johnson and Johnson and Takumi, which offer bespoke employment opportunities. We are working with the education and training board on an apprenticeship with Moyross Youth Academy. This did not happen overnight. The school has been there since 1983 and I joined in 1987. This has grown from a philosophy and ethos.

We are very lucky that our clinical psychologist provides all the supervision to the school pro bono, and that has always been the case. Our assistant psychologist is HSE funded. We apply for a grant every year and we were very fortunate to have been the first school in Ireland to receive that grant. We keep applying for different philanthropic grants to grow our play therapy. Even those within the play therapy are unique to each therapist. They will have different training and backgrounds. We recently employed a youth mental health worker, which is very similar to another model having talked to Ms Lynch. Our youth mental health worker, who has a psychology degree, is using sport and cognitive-behavioural therapy, CBT, as well as a variety of different methodologies, to connect and build relationships with children, which is primarily focused on the transition to secondary school. We are due to publish an independent report on research, conducted through Mary Immaculate College, on this programme. One of the key findings of interviews with past pupils is that this transition piece is huge in children's lives. You have to be there to support the children.

As for the next phase, Rethink Ireland has been great to help us with strategic planning. We are teachers and we were not thinking of things from a business perspective in how to get funding. Rethink Ireland has supported us to look at different systems. For our next three-year plan, we are looking at continuing to support our teenagers in the community and to bring our past pupils back into the school hub. That is done by clustering with our local secondary school and the school's completion project.

We are using everything that is out there. It is a working synergy and we are bringing everything together. We are more like the frugal housewife, looking at what we have. It is, ultimately, built on relationships with key people on the ground who have worked together over the past 20 years and who put children at the centre.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I will come in again on the second round.

Chairman

Senator Flynn is next, followed by Senator Pauline O'Reilly.

Senator Eileen Flynn

I refer to Ms McAlea. For the past 15 years, I have seen pilot programmes rolled out, some of which work and are very effective, but they do not get the support from the Government or the funding, and it is literally a waste of time. The pilot projects we are seeing today work. What is unique for me is that this is the first time I have heard that young people, such as those from ethnic minority groups, including refugees, Travellers, and people with disabilities, are being met at home. A person's house, caravan and the living accommodation can impact on a his or her whole life. I know that from Labre Park. I know many people are homeless and living in hotels in Dublin. We very rarely meet children where they are at, be it in primary or secondary school, or are culturally appropriate. There is many a young child I know who has to be in his or her buggy all day because the space is not there for playtime. This is daunting and stressful for parents and this can carry on to the child. I really get it.

Today gives me hope. We have a pilot project that is working, so we have to look at rolling it out to every school in the country. I would advocate that we should have a counselling service in every primary and secondary school, because there is so much pressure put on young people today. It is a completely different world to how it was ten years ago. There are issues with addiction in families and with accommodation. I would love to hear more and meet up with our guests in the future to discuss how can we make sure it is not just a pilot project that ends in the coming year or two, but is a project that is kept going.

I refer to representatives of the National Parents Council Primary. Reaching out to parents was raised earlier. Does that include people from non-English speaking backgrounds and people from ethnic minority groups?

It is always the children who get left behind and that is my main concern. Was it a full school community event even though it was online? Was there participation by the others in the school as well?

Ms Áine Lynch

We advertise our sessions. The online ones are not school based; they are nationally based. Parents can attend from anywhere in the country. We only have the capacity to deliver it in English but we advertise it through many support groups for minority ethnic groups. We have done it a couple of times in direct provision centres, with the support of the direct provision centre when it comes to translation and so on. We try to reach into all the various areas of the community with it.

Senator Eileen Flynn

Brilliant. As regards St. Patrick's Mental Health Services, we know that more children under the age of 13 are being diagnosed with mental health disorders. Given that it is so important for diagnosis to be made at an early age, how should we address the waiting lists? It is probably a very wide question. How does Mr. Gilligan think we can do that for young students coming through the education system? Is it possible?

Mr. Paul Gilligan

To be clear, I do not come from the education system. From our perspective at the tertiary or treatment end, we have seen significant and positive change in recent years. Mental health was never discussed in schools 20 years or 30 years ago. It is certainly there now, although I would not say it is integrated. The next step is to ensure mental health and well-being are a core focus for schools. That would address some of the issues in respect of exams and the focus thereon, to which reference was made earlier. Ultimately, for those under 13 it is about prevention. It is about working with parents and children together. It is very difficult. At times, there is a need to work directly with children, depending on the needs. The reason we are involved with the National Parents Council on this initiative, however, is that it needs to be community based and the best place to put a service in the community is in schools. The example shown by the school in Moyross, which I have seen, is tremendous simply because it is working at wellness, prevention and early intervention levels. Those are not the same things. It very often means that young people do not need to be referred on to more specialist services where there are serious difficulties.

Senator Eileen Flynn

A general point is that we are talking a lot about parents but, unfortunately, not every student has both parents with them. Some children are in foster care and so on. Perhaps the language could be looked at as well. Those are my questions for the moment. Obviously, mental health is all around us and it is being spoken about more. Exams are still an issue, however. As a committee, we have looked at reform of the exams. We are just back from a trip to England to see how it works over there in terms of providing mental health supports to young people. What we need to do is to listen to young people, provide the services and care for them and look after them. I thank the witnesses for coming in. It has been an eye-opening and enjoyable session and it is good to meet young people where they are at.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I have read the witnesses' opening statements and very much appreciate them coming in. I have just come from a meeting of the climate committee at which we discussed education in the context of climate. There is a sense of desperation among young people when it comes to their future in that regard. One thing that was raised from a sociology of education point of view is that the facts do not really change people's behaviour. What we often encounter at this committee is a desire to add more to a curriculum. We are getting further away from the underlying wellness of students; we are actually causing them anxiety. The facts do not stick but what sticks is giving people a sense of confidence and self.

I hope that is what will come out of some of our reports.

I want to speak briefly about the programmes. Mr. Gilligan mentioned the inspirational programme in Moyross, but there are others around the country as well. I think the ones that are successful are those that are very much peer-led or have a heavy peer influence included. When I say that, I refer to programmes in which Travellers are involved rather than something coming from outside. Ms Lynch mentioned direct provision. There is a sense that we have to make sure that people who understand their own culture are those who, first and foremost, are delivering the programmes or working with people. I would love to know Ms Lynch's thoughts on that. How successful is a programme that is delivered in this way, versus a programme that does things to people or informs people?

I certainly take on board Senator Flynn's point that not every family is the same. When people have a family with one or two parents or a guardian, there is often a sense of despair because of the separation between home and school. Even in the best schools I see, there is still this separation because young people are moving out from their families. Is there more we can do to make sure parents feel included in the process around their children's mental health so that they can support it at home?

Lastly, I will talk about self-harm. We heard previously - maybe two weeks ago - how self-harm does not give young people priority status when it comes to some of the supports provided through child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS. That is because of the high instance of self-harm in Ireland. It cannot be seen as a priority because the services are simply not there. From his clinical understanding, why does Mr. Gilligan think there is such a high level of self-harm now? Is that something to do with the experience of young people at the moment?

Mr. Paul Gilligan

I will deal with the self-harm issue. I think there are a couple of factors at play here. Self-harm is driven by distress. There are many reasons young people are experiencing very high levels of distress. If you reflect on your own experience over the last three or four years, and then transfer that to young people who are only really emerging and beginning their lives, you will realise that they have had to put up with very serious restrictions and have not had the opportunities other young people would have had. There was a great deal of stress regarding whether their exams were going to happen, or how they would happen. Now with high levels of stress, we enter another year where there is talk of war and of environmental disasters. Young people are living in an environment of very high anxiety.

The second issue is that more of this is being disclosed, which is fantastic. In the past, we tended to brush it under the carpet. Self-harm was one of those things that were connected with the stigma around mental health. For that reason, it was hidden away, particularly with young people. Parental expectations and child expectations have gone up and that is a fantastic thing to say. Young people expect to live a mentally healthy life and their parents expect them to live that. More and more young people are presenting for help because they know they have a right to be given the opportunity to live mentally healthy lives. Self-harm is considered a risk factor but there are other risk factors involved as well that get priority. We have a problem with CAMHS. It is under-resourced and under-developed. It is not going to be fixed in the next five or six years because the staff are not there. The answer to all of this is to work in the schools and build preventative initiatives that focus on things like self-harm and those areas that are still regarded with a level of stigma. I think you will see massive outcomes if that is done.

Ms Áine Lynch

I might take the other two questions, at least initially. There is evidence that peer-led and co-created programmes make a huge difference. It is important-----

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I do not mean to interrupt. Co-creation is really important, but I think the delivery of programmes by your own peers and people you recognise from your own culture is also extremely important.

Ms Áine Lynch

Yes, that has been shown to be the case. From our perspective, we are a very small organisation with limited resources but wherever we can, we do that. We might not have the ability to do so in all instances but we do large consultation pieces. As a result, we know that what we are developing is in response to what people are asking us to develop. Co-creation and co-delivery are really important. We do a programme where we bring parents in to meet student teachers, whether they are from the Travelling community or other communities, so that the teachers can see where parents are at. As much as we can, we provide that.

There is more to be done to involve parents and children in their mental health. These services work better in schools. One of the reasons for saying this is that it is the ideal place for schools, parents and children to be. We have to work much harder at the partnership between home and school. There is a large body of evidence from the last 30 or 40 years which shows that when schools are working better with families children do better. It is important we start making sure the structures are in place for families to work closely with schools. Mental health and education will come under that umbrella. As Ms McAlea stated, it is actually the relationships that exist in those situations. One cannot just do a one-off piece of work with parents. Relationships have to be built over time with parents and students. It is when a trusting relationship is there that things happen very positively around mental health and other education issues.

Senator Eileen Flynn

Is culturally appropriate training with communities such as LGBTQI+, refugees or Travellers being done? Are the various bodies reaching out to organisations such as the National Traveller Mental Health Network and the Traveller Counselling Service? It would be interesting to meet communities to find out where they are at with the training.

Ms Áine Lynch

We work with many different groups. Sometimes it can be very hard for us to access parents and children directly. In that case, we would reach out to different groups. We have limits to what we do. We are not involved in delivery or linking up of therapeutic services. We reach out to groups as a way of reaching out to parents and young people. We also do this to inform when we are speaking on behalf of parents to Government, the Department or other stakeholders. We want to ensure we are hearing directly from those parents and are not guessing what they feel or think and that we include their voice authentically in the consultations we do.

Chairman

As an acting principal in a school, how beneficial does Ms McAlea find parental involvement and giving parents access to psychotherapy services? I do not want to talk about the deprivation in a specific area of Limerick or what people there have been through, as we have all seen that in recent years. I spoke to a member of staff of the school on a recent visit to the Technological University of the Shannon. How beneficial has that service been to the parents? Has Ms McAlea seen a difference in the way the pupils react to that in terms of their behaviour and social skills?

Ms Hilary McAlea

It has been hugely beneficial. The service has been in place for a number of years so it is now openly spoken about in the community. People come in looking to access the service. Corpus Christi Primary School has always had an open door policy for parents. Through the home school liaison programme, we have always had family initiatives such as family reading, baking and woodwork.

Very definitely. That is true of transition at both stages, from primary to post-primary, and from post-primary to tertiary as well. However, to answer the question asked, the service does not necessarily always follow from primary to post-primary. In fairness, efforts to address that are beginning and hopefully it will happen. Critically within the broader spectrum, what I spoke about earlier was that there is no doubt schools are a centre of the community. They are an education centre of a community. Moyross and lots of the pilot schemes are demonstrating how when you work with the community, with the school at the centre, but also reach out to incorporate everybody, those kind of supports naturally follow through. There is an automatic link from primary to post-primary into the community. That is why I said in our presentation that it is not necessarily just about schools. Unfortunately with the best will in the world, while our schools can demonstrate brilliant systems, they tend to be institution led. This is particularly the case at post-primary level. I am conscious that a lot of the conversation is about primary, but we have that traditional scenario where each school is an entity unto itself and does not necessarily reach out. It looks after the institution in many instances rather than the pupils. However, there are brilliant schemes out there within the teaching council. There is the BEACONS project, which is beginning to roll pilots out now. That is about parents, schools and community right across the board working together to educate the children. Real life nowadays does not happen like it did in our day, when you were in school and then you come out and you go to play or you do whatever. Life is now lived right across the community, not just in school. It is critical that we all work together, parents supporting schools as well as schools supporting parents and community. Moyross is a brilliant demonstration of that happening spectacularly well. There are pilot schemes around the place on various different aspects. One of the bigger questions that has been made repetitively is how pilot schemes, which are supposed to pilot things, end as soon as the pilot scheme finishes. The pilot scheme is there and designed to see if something can work and then expand out to everybody else. Our pilot schemes take place, are looked at, get stuck on a shelf somewhere and are not rolled out. These things have been there for many years as we have been speaking now, and it is time for action to deliver these across the education system. This will facilitate and support all families, but particularly our students. It is critical from the point of view of helping them to be in a better place and to learn better from the point of view of the education side of things. Education is about us, and is about us personally in the first instance.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses for attending. This has been a very important and productive discussion. This is ongoing work within the committee. The witnesses' contributions will feed greatly into the committee's report.

Given that we have representatives from the primary schools with us, I wish to mention one matter.

It is not often we do this but we will do it because of the tragedy that happened in Wexford to that nine-year-old boy, Alejandro Mizsan. He is a pupil of the biggest primary school outside Dublin, St. Aidan's Primary School in Enniscorthy, where my own kids go to school. It was a terrible tragedy. I know I speak on behalf of everyone on the committee when I wish him a very speedy recovery. We are thinking of his family, friends and the school community at this meeting and we remember him in our prayers. I again thank the witnesses.

Again, our school is fortunate to have a strong pastoral care system which engages daily with students and is quick to act on issues. Our senior students have the option to engage in two student programmes - the meitheal programme or our senior prefect programme. As part of these programmes, senior students who have undertaken training are assigned to first and second year base classes to help students in all aspects of school life. They are a wonderful asset to our base class teachers as students often see and hear things in our school which teachers do not and it can help us spot issues more quickly. Student councils can also be an effective way to promote positive messages and encourage student engagement within a school setting. It is essential that students have a voice within their school community and that they feel that voice is being taken seriously by management. Modules such as YSI, Green Schools, Global Citizenship Education and civic, social and political education, CSPE, all have the potential to give students a sense of purpose and the opportunity to effect change. Not all students excel in or enjoy the classroom setting. For some, the sporting arena is their comfort zone. Schools must have adequate facilities and equipment to offer these opportunities to all students. Appropriate funding must be made available to schools to fund these.

Mr. Darragh Rawson

We have a number of recommendations. A full-time counsellor should be available in all schools and the referral process to that counsellor should be clear and straightforward for all parties.

A streamlined referral process for counsellors and schools with a much improved waiting time for an appointment must be available. Outside the HSE system, from the recent experience reported by colleagues, Jigsaw is the only support that engages promptly but it has an average waiting time of eight to 14 weeks. An increase in funding for these support agencies is essential. Teachers should receive regular training in the area of mental health awareness.

Ms Annie Sheppard

More funding and timetabling provision for one on one or buddy programmes for students experiencing difficulties are needed. A standardised LGBTQI+ support strategy should be in place in schools to ensure full equality and access to all students. This includes, but is not limited to gender-neutral bathrooms and changing rooms, a choice in terms of what gender uniform to wear and clarity on which pronouns to use being clearly communicated to all staff. VSware is the database used by the majority of secondary schools in Ireland and it currently only has the option of male or female in a student’s personal details section. This needs to change. The student council in Coláiste Bhríde has been fighting for this change for over two years and is currently working with Deputy Whitmore and the Irish Second-Level Students Union on this issue. After speaking to many mental health professionals in our research, the word "resilience" came up frequently. As a direct result of the pandemic and as a general shift in society, it is felt that many young people today lack the resilience required to tackle many of the daily obstacles in life. Our school has a comprehensive social, personal and health education, SPHE, curriculum that covers many of these topics and this should be implemented in all schools with a specific focus on building resilience.

Ms Molly Hynes

Schools are busy and noisy places and this does not suit all students. Funding should be available to schools to invest in supervised lunchtime programmes that offer quiet spaces to students during busy times. The funding made available to school libraries by the Minister, Deputy Foley, has the potential to greatly help in this area but regular funding of this nature should be available to all schools. Quiet rooms and reading rooms are features in many schools abroad.

Considerable investment in the high-speed broadband network in Ireland to ensure students have equal opportunities for online learning is long overdue. Slow Wi-Fi can cause a considerable amount of stress for students as they are either unable to complete or submit work through no fault for their own. This creates an unequal learning environment and requires immediate attention.

Training facilitated by the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, should be mandatory in all schools.

Mr. Darragh Rawson

Full training should be given to all staff and students regarding the correct terminology to use around special education needs, SEN and autistic spectrum disorder, ASD units to ensure an inclusive and respectful learning environment.

Many of the supports which reach out to the home of the student, for example, home-school liaison officers, should be available to all schools. Funding for programmes such as breakfast clubs should also be available to all students. Just because there is an adequate level of finances in a student’s home does not mean that parents ensure a healthy breakfast has been eaten each day. A student who is hungry is unlikely to get his or her head around a quadratic equation in maths class.

Ms Annie Sheppard

In conclusion, the young people in our post-primary schools today are not being adequately supported by the current structures in place. These structures and supports appear to vary widely between schools, which creates massive inequalities in our society. A national streamlined strategy with a greater injection of funding is long overdue. Full transparency and clear communication are required at all stages. Our young people are our future and they deserve every opportunity and assistance that can be given to them.

Ms Molly Hynes

To make decisions regarding mental health supports for young people, young people must be consulted. Anyone older than 25 does not understand the daily pressures that exist in a student’s life. TikTok and similar apps, have changed the daily landscape of young people’s lives. How can someone who has never been on TikTok best decide how to make supports available to students who have experienced bullying or trauma as a result of these sites?

Mr. Darragh Rawson

Our school mission statement reads, "Caring, challenging and achieving together". The word "caring" should be first and foremost in the focus of our Government but it does not appear to be at present.

Mr. Ryan Sharpe

I thank members of the committee for the invitation to speak here today. I am a past pupil of the Life Centre, an alternative education centre in Cork. Sitting next to me is Ms Tami O'Leary, who is a current sixth-year student at the Life Centre and will speak after me.

We are glad to hear mental health supports in schools and third level education is a subject under review by this committee. Many students who have attended the Cork Life Centre have experienced mental ill-health at one time or another. In fact, 20% of all young people in Ireland will experience a mental health problem in any one year. Are the necessary services and supports in place? Unfortunately, we feel that the answer is "No". It is fair to say mental health awareness advanced in Ireland as we grew up and went through school. Mental health, as distinct from physical health, is a topic that is now referred to openly. Various charities try to spread awareness about mental health issues. Movember is in full swing, raising awareness for suicide in men, among others. Not all, but many, feel more comfortable and safe discussing these topics. However, are the supports available once the discussion is started? In our experience, the answer is "No".

We are speaking from our experience but have asked for the input of our friends and peers, and they echo our experiences. For us, counselling services did not exist at primary school level. That is not to say mental health issues did not. Looking back on it, I can see the mental health issues I had in later life began when I was in primary school. Counselling was not available and mental health was not discussed. Mental health issues do not magically begin once you enter secondary school. Why does it seem that systemic supports think that way?

When I was in mainstream secondary school, mental health was mentioned, but only once. Two people from Jigsaw came in to talk to us. They were good but speaking to a room of 40 lads was tough. You did not want to be the uncool one paying attention. If you focused too much, people would wonder what was wrong with you. Messing was the easier option. The topic remained taboo. The fact that when two people came in to talk about this topic was the only time it was addressed made this worse.

We do not expect all teachers to be mental health experts, far from it, but just think they should be more understanding. Teachers knew I was going through a hard time but only two ever spoke to me about it. There was a guidance counsellor but there was a huge stigma about going to them. The room was clear for everyone to see and you would be asked why you had been there. On top of that, the guidance counsellor would ask you in the hall how you were doing while your friends were there. It put you on the spot and started questions from your friends. Guidance counsellors are great, but they are not counsellors.

In the end, there was not enough support for me in my secondary school. I moved to the Cork Life Centre and loved it there. There was so much more emphasis on my social, emotional and psychological development over the academic side of school. There were counsellors who were trained psychotherapists if I needed them. I could always talk to the director and deputy director, Don O'Leary and Rachel Lucey. I completed my leaving certificate last year and am studying music at third level. So far, I have been made aware that a counselling service exists. I think it needs to be advertised and signposted better.

Mental health supports can be a key part of a young person's development. I hope that young people in the future will not have to experience the same stigma, misunderstanding and lack of mental health supports that I did in mainstream primary and post-primary education.

Ms Tami O'Leary

I am a sixth-year student in the Cork Life Centre. In my mainstream school, mental health was rarely mentioned. I remember a plaque on the wall and an amber flag to do with promoting good mental health. I do not know how the school got them as they did not seem to have any impact on day-to-day life or my time there. I experienced the same lack of understanding as Ryan. They knew I was not mentally well; they reduced my timetable. When I could not cope, I would hide in the bathroom. This was judged as bad behaviour and, as a punishment, I was put back on a full timetable. At senior cycle, the leaving certificate was mentioned in every class: "Learn this off to get maximum points", "This is what you must know." College was regarded as the only option. Gap years, trades, apprenticeships and jobs were not seen as an option. We were like machines directed to memorise and reproduce as much material as we could. Sometimes, if you had stuff going on, your attention might have drifted to that in class. You could be singled out and targeted by the teacher in front of others. It was never acknowledged openly but, for me, it was clear that exam results and points were the priority to the exclusion of all else, including mental health.

There are many areas where schools can improve their mental health supports, from providing counsellors to improving the small day-to-day interactions. My dad was called many times about my mental health. No one ever said something to me. When I moved to the Life Centre, my old school contacted my dad and said it would hate to think I would not reach my full potential. Mental health is not a priority in some schools, despite what their flags, plaques or websites say.

The small things we do at school level need to be looked at by professionals before being rolled out. For example, Food Dudes was a programme run to promote healthy eating. While the aim may have been good, at a time when I suffered from an eating disorder, I did not need a programme that focused on how much I had eaten and whether I had exercised that day.

In summary, we think schools need counsellors. A check-in for each student with a nominated teacher or guidance counsellor should happen at stages during the year. Teachers need more training in mental health. Many are scared to be told about mental health issues. They need to know how to hear what young people are saying and help them find the appropriate service. Exam results can no longer be the sole factor in evaluating success in school and a young person's worth. A system that prioritises results will never be able to fully support the mental health that is an integral part of the process.

Mr. Hugh Ahern

Is mór an onóir dom labhairt leis an gcoiste seo ar mheabhairshláinte i scoileanna agus tríú leibhéal. I am a student of the Patrician Academy, Mallow. I am currently in fourth year.

Before I begin, I would like to read out the definition of a mental illness from the American Psychiatric Association. It states a mental illness is "a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning." It adds that "Mental disorders are usually associated with significant distress in social, occupational, or other important activities".

A report by the Oireachtas Library and Research Service on youth mental health in 2018 states that 13% of young people experience mental health issues, and national research shows that by the age of 24, over one in two young people in Ireland are likely to have experienced a mental disorder.

Mental health is one of the biggest issues that people of my generation will deal with in relation to health policy. That is why the Departments of Education and Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and Health must make it one of their top priorities. We need to act on this to change the scary statistic that one in two young people is likely to have experienced a mental disorder. We must ask ourselves why it is happening and why the numbers are so bad. As all young people now grow up with social media, I believe social media and social pressures play a large role in these figures. That is why I am putting forward eight key recommendations that I believe this committee should consider for its final report.

First, there should be a counsellor for every primary school and post-primary school in every local electoral area across the country. This would result in there being one or two counsellors that would cover every school in that local electoral area. Second, every primary and secondary school should create a wellbeing charter or policy, as this would generate more awareness of wellbeing. Third, a wellbeing grant should be considered so schools could invest more in activities and services for wellbeing. Fourth, we should increase the hours for physical education in secondary and primary schools. Fifth, the number of National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, assessments and education psychiatrists should be increased to enable more children to be catered for. Sixth, access to all information services concerning support for mental health should be improved.

Seventh, there should be a joint office in conjunction with the HSE, the Department of Health, the Department of Education, the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, and Tusla established in each county. Then there should be a district liaison for each school and higher education institution in the local electoral area. This office would be responsible for ensuring that each school and higher education institution, and students, receive the correct support and services. It would monitor the service delivery for the region and it should be required to submit a quarterly report to the Minister for that responsibility.

Eighth, student engagement is a critical part of mental health as engaging with young people can help alleviate stress. That is why I believe that the Departments and agencies should develop a buddy programme for schools as the transition from primary to post-primary, and the transition from post-primary to higher education, are difficult steps for many.

I hope my contribution is of benefit to this committee and I am more than happy to answer questions that members may have.

Chairman

I thank all of the students for their opening statements. The first member to speak is Senator Aisling Dolan.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Mr. Hugh Ahern

Mr. Ryan Sharpe

You meet new people and understand where they are coming from. It is good as well for the younger crowd when they see how you can get up to that level and get your leaving certificate.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Fantastic. There you go - role models. I thank the witnesses. I thank Ryan and Tami.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Mr. Ryan Sharpe

I have always loved music but I never thought of it as an option. In my mainstream secondary school I was pushed towards something more stable - mechanical engineering - but I could not tell anyone the first thing about it.

It was just that it had good points and I would make money, and that was it. When I went into the life centre, I started to enjoy the subjects, like the Deputy was saying. Now I enjoy learning, especially music, and I took a focus to that. I am in third level now and love it.

Going back to Deputy Conway-Walsh's question about physical activity, some people are the opposite and would probably rather do schoolwork or another hobby, but physical activity, I think, is so important, even for my own well-being. If I go out and train and then try to come back and study, I find it way easier to learn that piece or to do my homework. I get it done way quicker. Even going out for a walk with my mam or something in the evening after school, I just find it so important for young people's mental health and it should be emphasised more. We are very fortunate in that we get one hour of PE in fifth year still. It is the best hour of the whole week. It is just so nice to just take a break from schoolwork. I really think physical education should be emphasised.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Thank you for that. I want to give the others a chance to come in.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I welcome all the witnesses before the committee. I thank them for coming in. As they will know, we are the education committee and we are trying to look to see what recommendations we should make to improve mental health supports in school. That is the function of what we are doing here. That is why it is so important we hear their side of the argument. This should be a very happy time in their lives. It is a great time going through school and, afterwards, college and it is a time they should all enjoy. Obviously, that makes it all the more important that we ensure that if people do have mental health challenges, which can happen, and there is nothing wrong with a mental health challenge, the supports are there.

Having said that, I am interested to hear from the students from Coláiste Bhríde in Wicklow. I was interested to hear what Ms Sheppard said about physical education. When I was growing up, physical education was not emphasised that much and was not given huge recognition. What does Mr. Rawson think? Does he get involved in sports? Does he think it should be emphasised more in school?

Mr. Darragh Rawson

I am sport crazy at the moment. I play a lot of sport in the school. It is a breath of fresh air every now and then. Annie and I have physical education on a Tuesday. It is one hour when we can relax and not worry about whether we got the homework done, if we studied enough or if we will pass a test. As she said, we have only been in fifth year for a few months. We have been handed two Sraith Pictiúr to learn and Hamlet to read. The physical education part opens one's eyes. It allows one to relax and have a bit of craic, to enjoy oneself and play sport. We play all sports. We might play dodgeball, soccer, football, hockey or whatever else we feel like on the day. Everyone gets a share of what they enjoy.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

What about Ms Hynes? Does she get involved in physical education? Does she enjoy sports?

Ms Molly Hynes

I do, like Annie and Darragh. I play camogie, I am starting to play football and I also play soccer. There are many other sports, including basketball and all that, to get involved in and try out. I definitely love physical education. I was saying to the other students that it is my favourite class of the week. As Annie and Darragh were saying, it is relaxing. It is an opportunity not to think about whether I have the homework done for a particular class, if I have I learned something off or if the teacher is going to go crazy. There should be a greater emphasis on physical education. Our school has taken the opportunity to include physical education as a leaving certificate subject this year. With that comes two theory classes as well as a practical class per week. The two theory classes are like French, geography or any other class, in that there is homework and everything else. The practical class then is more relieving.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Are people aware that there are opportunities for them after school to study physical education through sports management or courses like that? Is that something that is brought to students' attention?

Ms Annie Sheppard

It is in some ways but is not in other ways. There is still a stigma that requires students to get great points and a great job thereafter. People are saying that the leaving certificate is changing but it is not. The way it is presented is that the leaving certificate is what one's life depends on, and it will always be that way. The leaving certificate picks the path of students' lives. I do not agree with that in the slightest.

On the point around physical education, I would love to play football as my job and get paid for it but I do not think that will be the case. As the Deputy said, more emphasis on sport management and all that would be brilliant.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Mr. Ryan Sharpe

I definitely agree. I agree that some people learn the traditional way. I could not name another school like the Cork Life Centre. If not for the centre, I do not know where I would be and that is not a good thing.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I welcome our guests. I am afraid I was one of the enemy in that I was a teacher for many years. I ask our guests to be kind in their answers. It is important for us to hear the student voice. I have served on seven boards of management. I was interested in politics and in the staffroom, that meant I was a good candidate to run the student council. I was the kind of fellow who got landed with those jobs. I loved them, to be fair. It is important that we are hearing the student voice. I was watching the meeting on the monitor in my office and our guests are doing a great job. Fair play to them.

I was in the Cork Life Centre last week with the Taoiseach, Mr. Sharpe and Ms O'Leary. He visited last Friday. We only found out afterwards that the centre takes a half day every Friday and the Taoiseach did not arrive until 4 o'clock. Students in the centre think of it as a happy place and safe space. As Ms O'Leary said, it is like a community. Discussions are ongoing with the Department to get the teachers certified and registered, and to arrange for them to be paid as they would be in any normal school. It is great to see that progress.

I read our guests' briefs and I will pick up on one or two things with Mr. Sharpe and Ms O'Leary. Mr. Sharpe said there was almost a stigma associated with going to the guidance counsellor when he was in his old school. I know things are different in the Cork Life Centre. Mr. Don O'Leary and Ms Rachel Lucey provide access to guidance counsellors or whatever else is required. How would it work in a mainstream school, if Mr. Sharpe can take himself back to what it was like in the mainstream? He said there was a stigma associated with going to a specific room to see a guidance counsellor. How could it best be rolled out if someone was available to talk to students individually about their mental health?

I do not see it. Perhaps somebody else mentioned it-----

Mr. Hugh Ahern

Mr. Darragh Rawson

My school is very much farmers and footballs for lads. We have a guidance counsellor. While a lot of us go to the counsellor, when it comes to well-being, the only way the school could get lads to talk would be if everyone had to meet up.

If everyone had to meet up and you could say what you like, you could have a conversation about football but if you want to say something, you can. I would not be one for going to a teacher and saying what I think. I would say it to my family at home but some people struggle with it. Lads struggle. In my school, we are not expressive of it but if we had a timetable where, say, once a month we went to meet someone and talk for five or ten minutes, it could make a difference. That could be the way to go at it.

We talked about hurling and football and farming and who had the biggest tractor and horsepower and everything like that.

Ms Tami O' Leary did fantastically well and I say that genuinely. It is not easy appearing before a committee for the first time. All of the people beside her have been here before and knew what it was like. Well done to her; she should be very proud of herself for having the confidence to come in here. Don O'Leary and all in the Cork Life Centre should be very proud of her and I know they are; as are her family. I praise all of their families and teachers as well. Having their teachers coming here with them is absolutely fantastic. Society, the school community, and the teachers have moved some way. That would not have happened when I did my leaving certificate back in 1992 and it was not the stone age either.

I thank the guests very much for appearing before the committee. I know I speak on behalf of all the committee members in conveying our gratitude to them for coming in. Their contributions will feed widely into our report.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.51 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 13 December 2022.

Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht - Tuesday, 29 Nov 2022

Mental Health Supports in Schools and Tertiary Education: Discussion

Ms Áine Lynch

Mr. Paul Rolston

Mr. Paul Gilligan

Ms Hilary McAlea

Ms Áine Lynch

Mr. Paul Rolston

Ms Hilary McAlea

Ms Áine Lynch

Ms Hilary McAlea

Ms Áine Lynch

Mr. Paul Gilligan

Mr. Paul Gilligan

Ms Áine Lynch

Ms Áine Lynch

Ms Áine Lynch

Ms Hilary McAlea

Ms Hilary McAlea

Ms Hilary McAlea

Ms Hilary McAlea

Mr. Paul Rolston

Ms Hilary McAlea

Ms Áine Lynch

Ms Áine Lynch

Mr. Paul Rolston

Mr. Paul Rolston

Mr. Paul Rolston

Ms Molly Hynes

Mr. Darragh Rawson

Ms Annie Sheppard

Ms Molly Hynes

Mr. Darragh Rawson

Ms Annie Sheppard

Ms Molly Hynes

Mr. Darragh Rawson

Ms Annie Sheppard

Ms Molly Hynes

Mr. Darragh Rawson

Ms Annie Sheppard

Ms Molly Hynes

Mr. Darragh Rawson

Ms Annie Sheppard

Ms Molly Hynes

Mr. Darragh Rawson

Mr. Ryan Sharpe

Ms Tami O'Leary

Mr. Hugh Ahern

Ms Molly Hynes

Ms Molly Hynes

Ms Molly Hynes

Mr. Hugh Ahern

Mr. Hugh Ahern

Mr. Hugh Ahern

Mr. Hugh Ahern

Mr. Hugh Ahern

Mr. Hugh Ahern

Mr. Hugh Ahern

Mr. Ryan Sharpe

Mr. Ryan Sharpe

Mr. Ryan Sharpe

Mr. Ryan Sharpe

Mr. Ryan Sharpe

Ms Tami O'Leary

Ms Tami O'Leary

Ms Tami O'Leary

Ms Tami O'Leary

Mr. Ryan Sharpe

Mr. Ryan Sharpe

Mr. Ryan Sharpe

Mr. Ryan Sharpe

Ms Annie Sheppard

Mr. Darragh Rawson

Ms Molly Hynes

Ms Annie Sheppard

Mr. Hugh Ahern

Mr. Hugh Ahern

Ms Tami O'Leary

Ms Tami O'Leary

Ms Tami O'Leary

Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 29 Nov 2022