Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 14 Feb 2023

North-South Enrolment in Tertiary Education: Discussion

Chairman

I remind members to ensure their mobile telephones are switched off for the duration of the meeting. Even on silent mode, they interfere with the broadcasting equipment. Are the minutes of the meeting of 21 January agreed? Agreed.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome: Ms Heather Cousins, deputy secretary of the skills and education group at the Northern Ireland Department for the Economy; Mr. Ian McKenna, principal officer at the international co-operation unit of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science; Dr. Vivienne Patterson, head of skills, engagement and statistics with the Higher Education Authority, HEA; and Mr. Andrew Brownlee, CEO of SOLAS, and his colleague, Ms Nessa White, executive director of transformation, who is in the Public Gallery. The witnesses are here to brief us on North-South enrolment in tertiary education.

Today is a special day, with Ms Cousins joining us from the Northern Ireland Civil Service. This is the first time an Oireachtas committee meeting has had civil servants from both jurisdictions briefing members. Ms Cousins is very welcome.

The format of the meeting will be that I will invite each of the officials to make a brief opening statement in the following order: Ms Cousins, Mr. McKenna, Dr. Patterson and Mr. Brownlee. This will be followed by questions from committee members. Given the time constraints, members will each have a five-minute slot to ask questions and obtain responses from the witnesses. The committee will publish the witnesses' opening statements after the meeting.

Before we begin, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the Chair to discontinue their comments. It is imperative that they comply with such direction from the Chair.

I invite Ms Cousins to make her opening statement, for which she has five minutes.

Ms Heather Cousins

Cross-Border student mobility is important to both students and the tertiary education institutions they attend. The Department for the Economy therefore recognises the need to support such enrolments. Each academic year, many students from Northern Ireland avail of offers of study in further or higher education in the Republic of Ireland, with similar student traffic taking place in the opposite direction. I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to discuss its report and to share with members the information the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland publishes on this matter.

On higher education, figures from the UK's Higher Education Statistics Agency indicate an overall decline in the total number of both part-time and full-time students from the Republic of Ireland enrolled at Northern Ireland's higher education institutions, from 3,515 in 2011-12 to 2,095 in 2016-17. However, since 2016-17, that steady decline has plateaued, albeit with minor year-on-year variations, with the most recent figures indicating 2,170 enrolments in 2020-21. As a proportion of total enrolments at Northern Ireland's higher education institutions, the number of students from the Republic of Ireland dropped from 6% in 2011-12 to 3% in 2020-21. However, if we look at full-time Republic of Ireland student enrolments only, while the trend is similar to that for the total number of enrolments of students from the Republic of Ireland in that there was a steady decline, there has been something of a post-Brexit recovery. Of the 2,170 Republic of Ireland students enrolled at Northern Ireland's higher education institutions in 2020-21, more than half were enrolled at Ulster University. Almost two thirds of those were female.

Regarding higher education mobility in the opposite direction, data sourced from the HEA indicate that the number of Northern Ireland students enrolling at higher education institutions in the Republic of Ireland has increased yearly from 1,160 in 2016-17 to 1,625 in 2020-21. One of the barriers to cross-Border higher education enrolments is the differing admissions systems. While Northern Ireland is aligned with the rest of the UK in using the Universities and Colleges Admissions Service, UCAS, for admissions to our higher education institutions, the CAO manages the process in the Republic of Ireland. This naturally leads to some misalignment in the timing of admissions stages. This was exacerbated in the past few years due to the impact of the Covid pandemic and the delays it created in publishing results.

Regarding further education, the committee will be aware that significant numbers of students from the Republic of Ireland enrol on courses in further education colleges in Northern Ireland. The flow of students from Ireland to Northern Ireland to study in further education colleges is disproportionate relative to student flows in the other direction. Following Brexit, due to the common travel area arrangements, students from Ireland continue to be eligible to access further education on terms no less favourable than was previously the case. However, there has been a significant decline in student numbers from the Republic of Ireland in recent years. In 2015-16, which was the year prior to Brexit, 2,207 students at Northern Ireland further education colleges were from the Republic of Ireland, representing 2.7% of the entire Northern Ireland further education student population. In 2021-22, this number dropped to 1,197 students, representing 1.9% of Northern Ireland's further education student population. As has always been the case, the vast majority of these students - 68% - attend North West Regional College. It is unfortunate that there is a lack of available data on Northern Irish students enrolled in further education colleges in the Republic of Ireland. This is something my departmental colleagues would be interested in resolving.

I welcome the opportunity to engage with the committee to identify the reasons for the decline in enrolments, identify any further barriers that might be the cause and look at steps that could be taken to support cross-Border flows in both the further and higher education sectors. I hope it goes without saying that any recommendations for policy change in Northern Ireland may be impacted by the current lack of an Executive and will be subject to the views of any incoming Minister.

Chairman

I thank Ms Cousins. The next speaker is Mr. McKenna.

Mr. Ian McKenna

Rather than giving a whole lot of statistics, with the risk of some possible discrepancies between them, I propose to highlight a number of key aspects from which we take comfort. We absolutely share the sentiments expressed by Ms Cousins regarding the strong desire for collaboration that exists between the North and the South. Like Ms Cousins, we have sourced data from the Higher Educations Statistics Agency in the UK, which looks after the entire gamut of statistics across that jurisdiction. We have also sourced some data from the HEA. We were anxious to get a sense not just of North-South mobility but also east-west mobility, which likewise impinges and impacts on decisions made by students.

If we focus exclusively on the mobility and student flows that exist between North and South we find that overall it is quite stable. There is a small decline in the number of students heading North but we have seen an increase in students coming from Northern Ireland. When we look at the east-west and North-South flows together, we see that 22% of Irish students head North. Over the four-year period from 2017-2018 through to 2020-2021, there was a 4% decline in undergraduate trends. We also noticed that postgraduate numbers increased by 11%. When we looked at students coming from Northern Ireland to institutions such as UCD and Trinity over the same time period, we saw an increase in the cohort of Northern Ireland students. It was quite substantial at 68%. This was from a relatively small base but the increase is substantial.

With regard to undergraduate numbers, 75% of all students moving east-west and North-South are from Northern Ireland in particular. This number saw an increase of 45% over the same period. With regard to postgraduate numbers, 53% came from Northern Ireland and there was an increase of 52%. We are seeing positive trends in terms of mobility. As I have said, we have taken notice of the fact that the number of students heading North has plateaued. At the same time, it is still a positive given the decline that had been happening previously.

Much of our energy is going into trying to find out precisely what is informing these trends and what is informing student choices as they head towards institutions in the North or move between east and west. We have worked very closely with the shared island unit in the Department of the Taoiseach. It has worked with us to commission qualitative work from the ESRI that will look at the reasons students make decisions. When we looked at the overall trend in course choices being pursued we saw they fell primarily in health sciences, such as occupational therapy, physical therapy and nursing. Medicine also featured quite highly, along with social science, business and management and education and training. When we look at the corollary in the CAO system these courses tend to require relatively high points. This could inform some of the decisions students are making.

There are other aspects that are very important to the committee's discussion. Recently the North West Strategic Growth Partnership, which was a relatively informal body established with the support of the Department of the Taoiseach, established the north-west tertiary education cluster. This will involve substantial collaboration among all four institutes and education and training providers in the north west.

We have also had research calls that were oversubscribed. This is a very positive indication of the nature and the desire for collaboration that exists between institutions North and South. Of course we continue to work on the various commitments in New Decade, New Approach in terms of capital investment in the University of Ulster's Derry campus. A host of other engagements are also taking place. PEACE PLUS offers us an opportunity for further collaboration between both jurisdictions. We are also working on the Erasmus process for Northern Ireland students, with a view to having it in place for next September. We are working very closely with Queen's University Belfast and the University of Ulster on pursuing the possibility of using any spare capacity that may exist in medical places to assist in our own strategy.

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

I am pleased to assist the committee in its consideration of the topics referred to in its letter of 12 January. On the matter of North-South student enrolment in tertiary education, the recently enacted Higher Education Authority Act 2022 states that under its functions the HEA must promote co-operation and collaboration on higher education with the authorities that have responsibility for higher education in Northern Ireland, including the promotion of co-operation between designated institutions of higher education and institutions of higher education in Northern Ireland. We have quite a bit of data on the flow of students across the Border. The HEA, through its student record system, collects student enrolment and graduate data, including the domiciliary of origin. This gives us a very good indication of the number of students coming across the Border from Northern Ireland to enrol in HEA-designated higher education institutions.

The HEA, in collaboration with the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland, published two reports on students flows between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland in 2015 and 2018. More recently, the HEA conducted analysis for the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science on the enrolment trends between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland, including cross-Border flows. The cross-Border flow of students between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland continues to be a key element of cultural and educational collaboration between the two jurisdictions.

I will highlight some areas that have not been highlighted already. By mode of study, 68% of those crossing the Border are full-time students while 32% are part-time students. As has been noted, the overall number enrolled has remained relatively steady over the past five years. The majority of Northern Ireland students, at 75%, studying in the Republic of Ireland are undergraduates whereas the proportion of Republic of Ireland students studying in Northern Ireland is much more equal, with 54% undergraduates and 46% postgraduates. Females are more likely than males to enroll cross-Border at undergraduate level in the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland. In the 2020-2021 academic year 67% of enrolments in Northern Ireland from the Republic of Ireland were female while 57% of Republic of Ireland students studying in Northern Ireland were female.

As Mr. McKenna pointed out, Republic of Ireland students studying in Northern Ireland predominantly study subjects allied to medicine, business and management while Northern Ireland students studying in the Republic of Ireland predominantly study arts and humanities, business studies and health and welfare. In the academic year 2020-2021 83% of Northern Ireland new entrants entering Republic of Ireland higher education institutions enrolled in Dundalk Institute of Technology, University of Galway, Trinity College Dublin and University College Dublin. The majority of Republic of Ireland students attended the University of Ulster and Queen's University Belfast.

The HEA also manages the Erasmus programme. In 2020, the United Kingdom withdrew from the Erasmus+ programme but it will continue to send and receive students and staff until this academic year, 2022-2023, under agreements signed before the end of 2020. This measure was introduced by the European Commission as a response to the challenges caused by the Covid-19 pandemic. Higher education institutions in Northern Ireland have taken up this option and a number will continue to send and receive students until this year. The HEA is in discussion with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research Innovation and Science to develop a scheme to allow eligible students from higher education institutions in Northern Ireland to continue participating in Erasmus+ on the basis of temporary registration at Irish higher education institutions, with implementation in September 2023.

The HEA also manages a number of funding initiatives on behalf of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. These initiatives either partly or fully promote cross-Border activity in tertiary education and research. In 2018 the HEA through its landscape funding provided €250,000 for cross-Border further and higher education partnership. This partnership was modelled on higher education clusters, as envisaged in the national strategy for higher education to 2030. It involved the University of Ulster, Letterkenny Institute of Technology, Atlantic Technological University, North West Regional College and Donegal Education and Training Board. This funding contributed to the development of a co-ordinated academic plan that exploits opportunities for collaboration and study pathways for students in the region and the development of a regional further and higher education prospectus. Landscape funding in 2019 provided €500,000 for the smart industry north-west city region.

In addition, in 2019 HEA performance funding was awarded to Letterkenny Institute of Technology to support a project aimed at supporting high-value employment opportunities and data science support for industry in the region, particularly in ICT and financial technology.

In support of this, a new data science research centre, Artificial Intelligence North West, was established.

In 2021, the shared island unit allocated €40 million over five years to the North-South research programme, NSRP, which is being delivered by the HEA. Following a very successful first call, 62 projects were funded across three strands to the value of €37.38 million. Projects are strengthening links between higher education institutions, research communities and researchers across the island of Ireland by delivering all-island approaches to research and innovation through a lens nuanced by the objectives of the Good Friday Agreement, the sustainable development goals, the national development plan, Ireland 2040, and the strategic development of research and higher education. The programme also aligns with the objectives of pillar 51 of the new national research strategy, Impact 2030. Each project is underpinned by the aims of the shared island unit in the Department of the Taoiseach and the criteria of the NSRP.

Of the 62 successful projects from call 1 of the North-South research programme, 19 projects include research students. Over a period of four years, strand 2 Department-to-Department projects focused on establishing emerging hubs of excellence will support 31 PhD students and two master's students. In addition, collaboration between higher education institutions was encouraged to establish links with relevant third-party collaborators such as NGOs and charities, hospitals, SMEs, State agencies and other public institutions.

The HEA's new legislation will provide opportunities for further collaboration with the tertiary education sector in Northern Ireland. The HEA looks forward to liaising with our colleagues in the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to establish how the HEA can play an enhanced role in furthering North-South collaboration through higher education and research.

I thank the members of the committee and we look forward to taking any questions.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

On behalf of SOLAS, I thank the Chair and the committee members for the opportunity to discuss North-South student enrolment in tertiary education.

SOLAS has responsibility for further education and training, FET, in Ireland. Through the 16 education and training boards, ETBs, and other providers, the FET system offers access to a wide range of learning opportunities and supports in every community, regardless of background or formal education level, and a learning pathway to take people as far as they want to go. It currently serves a base of approximately 200,000 unique learners every year. SOLAS also serves as the co-ordinating provider for craft apprenticeships and works with the HEA to jointly manage the national apprenticeship office to oversee the national apprenticeship system.

Developing North-South student pathways is completely aligned with the national strategy for FET and apprenticeships. Our future FET strategy, Transforming Learning, sets out a clear roadmap for development which centres on building skills, fostering inclusion and creating pathways. Under the pathways pillar, we are committed to significantly expanding pathways within FET, and between FET and higher education. In this regard, North-South links will be a key priority. The strategy is being embedded at regional level via strategic performance agreements between SOLAS and the 16 ETBs, with many identifying specific commitments to grow links with Northern Ireland partners. The action plan for apprenticeship includes a commitment to examine the potential for an all-island approach to apprenticeship, particularly in niche skills areas, with cross-Border apprenticeship programmes to be developed to enhance Ireland’s ability to respond to skills needs as an all-island economy.

The extent to which learners and apprentices from Northern Ireland access FET and apprenticeship opportunities funded by SOLAS is limited. We currently have 96 craft apprentices and 250 to 300 FET learners. Factors constraining demand for this provision include the lack of consistent financial support to avail of FET courses like traineeships and post-leaving certificate, PLC, courses, a lack of understanding of the currency of the national framework of qualifications, NFQ, level 5 and level 6 awards available via these opportunities and the relative strength of the further education college system in Northern Ireland.

There are good examples of successful North-South partnerships between tertiary education providers, however. Louth and Meath ETB recently established the All-Ireland Advanced Manufacturing Training Centre of Excellence, AMTCE, in Dundalk, which is already driving upskilling across North and South. The Northern Ireland partner to the AMTCE is the Portview Trade Centre in Belfast. They are also both part of a wider consortia seeking to build an all-island advanced manufacturing training and business network. This also includes three regional colleges. along with Manufacturing Engineering Growth Advancement, MEGA, in Dungannon and the Irish Manufacturing Research, IMR, centre in Mullingar. Louth and Meath ETB and Southern Regional College are also seeking to develop a new all-island apprenticeship in artificial intelligence, AI, and robotics.

We believe there is considerable potential to develop industry-linked specialist educational initiatives of this kind to drive North-South tertiary activity, which serve employers and the upskilling needs of their employees, as well as providing pathways into exciting careers for school leavers. In this regard Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim ETB is working with South West College and the Irish Cross-Border Area Network in Enniskillen as part of a skills development cluster initiative. Donegal ETB is part of a North West Tertiary Education Cluster, which Mr. McKenna mentioned earlier.

Recently SOLAS has worked with the HEA to support the co-development of programmes by FET and higher education partners, with 13 now in development in exciting areas like nursing, computer science and culinary arts. We are happy to support the exploration of developing similar FET-higher education pathway initiatives on a North-South basis. A number of FET graduates already go on to undertake degree programmes in Northern Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales, particularly in high-demand areas like nursing and social care. Although it is more difficult to track these students when they leave this jurisdiction, we have mapped the transition pathways that exist, and there should be a very good foundation to further expand learning pathways on a North-South basis from the links already in place.

A proposal on a potential all-island apprenticeship for accounting technologists was recommended for development by the National Apprenticeship Alliance at a meeting last month, responding to a new occupational need identified by the professional body Accounting Technicians Ireland, ATI. It is positioned as a progression path for accounting technicians where advanced skills in the areas of IT and digital skills, analysis of data, governance and operations are developed. It is planned that the apprenticeship programme will be developed for implementation in both North and South, with the with Open University identified as potential co-ordinating provider for the former and Technological University of the Shannon, TUS, for the latter.

It is worth noting that SOLAS and the ETBs have joined the Four Nations Colleges Alliance as associate members. This is a network of further education providers across Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales which evolved from a commission formed to set out a vision for a college of the future. Much of this work aligned with our own development of a FET college of the future model within the transforming learning strategy, and the links developed via the alliance are already leading to active collaboration between the ETBs and the regional colleges in Northern Ireland.

In summary, there is significant potential to grow North-South enrolments into, and out of, FET despite quite limited numbers at present. Part of our challenge is increasing awareness of the many FET options, particularly at NFQ levels 5 and 6, which either take people directly into exciting careers or allow them to progress to a higher education degree. One of the recent initiatives to promote these opportunities has been a link to all available FET courses from the CAO website, including the ability to apply for any course within a few clicks. All the apprenticeship options are also there with a year-round apprenticeship helpline established to provide guidance. We will also consider how recognition of all the FET and apprenticeship pathways can be improved in Northern Ireland, building on the strong collaboration already evident between North-South partners.

I hope this provides a brief overview of the issues with regard to North-South tertiary education enrolment and the potential opportunities to grow this in a FET and apprenticeship context. I thank the committee members for their time today and look forward to further discussion on this matter.

Chairman

I call Deputy Conway-Walsh. She will be followed by Senator O'Reilly. Deputy Conway-Walsh will have five minutes. I will need to be strict because there is another coming in.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I will leave out the preamble so. I thank all the witnesses for coming today. I am particularly grateful to Ms Cousins, the deputy secretary of the skills and education group, for making the effort to be here. We are trying to create more opportunities for people of all ages to access education across the island, which can only be good. The recent survey carried out for The Irish Times and the Analysing and Researching Ireland North and South, ARINS, project found that two thirds of people in the South say they have relations and friends in the North. Over 80% said they have no relations there. The project also fund that more than half had not travelled across the Border in the past five years. That is truly shameful. The barriers to third level education contribute substantially to those statistics. In addition, economic reports tell us about the impact of the brain drain on productivity and everything else.

Today, we want to tease out some of the contents of the report we published in July and the specific things we can do to put that into action. Obviously, the big game changer is legislation giving the HEA a task that cannot be shied away from. My first question is for Dr. Patterson. With the introduction of the new legislation, the HEA now has a very clear mandate and function to promote and increase cross-Border student enrolment.

What actions has the HEA taken to increase the cross-Border enrolment or to identify and remove the barriers to cross-Border enrolment? Has that work started? Are there any pathways there?

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

The Deputy will appreciate that the HEA Act has only been very recently enacted. We are working with our colleagues in the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to prioritise areas as set out in the new Act and particularly new areas that were not covered in the previous Act. We have not started that work yet, but we will be discussing with our colleagues in the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science what actions we can take and how we will be able to promote, co-operate and collaborate. As outlined in my opening statement, we have several funding initiatives, particularly with the technological universities and the landscape funding. We are hoping to increase that further. We have not had further discussions yet on how we will deal with what is set out in our new legislation. However, it is imminent as are a number of other areas in our-----

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I appreciate that and I thank Dr. Patterson for that. Once the pathway has been set out it would be useful to share it with the committee so that we can all work together to tackle some of these things and have a plan together so we can measure that in a way that will address the issues we want to address. No matter how many statistics are put on the table, the numbers have been static since the introduction of the Good Friday Agreement and that reflects on us all.

Ms Cousins mentioned the key issue of the system of admission, which can and should be addressed immediately if we want greater levels of cross-Border enrolment. Some very easy steps could be taken to align with when results are announced and that would have a tangible impact. That is coming through repeatedly in our engagement on the matter. What does she believe the CAO can do to properly account for the differences in the two education systems when aligning the grades? What should we be doing to ensure the necessary reform is done to increase the number of students North and South? Is there scope for higher education institutions, HEIs, in the South to offer courses through UCAS and HEIs in the North to offer places through CAO?

Ms Heather Cousins

This is quite a complex area and a lot of work will need to be done on it. There is a willingness to have those discussions at least. We will certainly need to look at the timelines that both authorities are operating to and the issue of results. For example, Scotland's results came out on a different day from those in Northern Ireland, England and Wales, but we still managed to accommodate that within the UCAS system. We need to get it to align because particularly in the last couple of years institutions in Northern Ireland have held places for students from the Republic of Ireland who had received offers but then those students did not take up the places. Because clearing has finished, the universities are not able to fill those places and therefore those places are lost to them. It means they cannot recruit up to their maximum student number. It is quite a serious situation for the universities. The results and the clearing period within the UCAS system need to be aligned.

UCAS tends to have an exclusivity clause. We need to look at that and understand how exclusive it is and whether there is room for negotiation. We are also facing that with our further education colleges which are considering offering their courses through UCAS in an attempt to increase the amount of higher education in further education. We have a pilot programme and we are watching the pilot carefully to see what progress can be made. We are certainly very willing to have those discussions to facilitate discussions and try and move this on, which is in everyone's interest.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

The exclusivity clause is key. Who would be able to look at that? How can that be examined to understand the barrier that is creating? Is there anything this committee can do on that? Obviously, this is coming from the British Government. How can we help?

Ms Heather Cousins

We will mention to them that there is the interest and there is that potential for them to have some additional business if HEIs here are able to use their system. The wording is "main application method" and we need to explore exactly what that means.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Has the HEA or the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science looked at ways to reform the interpretation of A level points and turn them into CAO points for students from the North as a means of increasing access?

Mr. Ian McKenna

I can certainly respond and Dr. Patterson may wish to add to that. The admissions policy of each higher education institution is its responsibility and it is not a departmental responsibility. It is actually the regulations within each of the institutions. It was last reviewed in 2018 or thereabouts and additional points were allocated on the basis of A levels. If there have been further changes within the A levels process, that would certainly merit a review. I know it is an issue that the committee raised in the report. However, it is ultimately the responsibility of the institutions to respond to that. We can certainly raise it with the representative association, the Irish Universities Association, IUA, to find out if there is an appetite within the admissions offices.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Somebody really needs to take a hold of this. It cannot be simply left to the institutions to do it. It is a working out of the changes in the legislation there because it is one of the biggest barriers. We cannot ignore the elephant in the room and just leave it up to HEIs to do it. I feel very strongly about that. I commend all the young people and students I have talked to both formally and informally. In particular the Belfast YMCA contributed. We had interesting discussions with its members from across communities. We cannot have a situation where it is easier for students from this island to go to Cambridge and Oxford than it is for them to come down the road. This is one of the main barriers relating to points, A levels and the leaving certificate that needs to be levelled out to open the opportunity to give these students a choice.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank all the witnesses for coming today. In some ways they are coming to us too early and in other ways it is quite late. Deputy Conway-Walsh spoke about the numbers of people who feel they do not have a connection with the North. However, this should not be just about creating links with Northern Ireland; there needs to be something in it for each student. That is the reason students choose a course. They do not choose it because they feel it would be great to have a connection with the South of Ireland or with the North of Ireland. What is in it for an individual student is unclear? That may be the biggest barrier here. Do the witnesses have any comments on that? We can get the structures right to make it easier to apply through the CAO, UCAS or whatever. However, unless we get that piece right, we will not move much further.

My next question is about teachers. Are teachers given sufficient support? Is that not just creating more of a burden for them without the backup when they might be, particularly through career guidance, having conversations with students about possible opportunities, from our point of view, north of the Border? I would say anecdotally that students are not made aware of what is available.

How many people from the South go to England, Wales and Scotland? Obviously, the numbers of students going to Northern Ireland are incredibly low.

I would really like to see a comparison with the other countries to establish if there is something unique to this problem that needs to be addressed.

Mr. Ian McKenna

I will respond to the first two parts of the question and perhaps refer to Dr. Patterson on the statistics part of the question. In terms of what is in it for the students, the Senator is absolutely right. People pursue choices in programmes because they see a value in it and they see it contributing towards their professional and also personal formation and so on. I think we have to acknowledge the efforts of both the CAO and UCAS in terms of publicity. I know that the CAO invites institutions from the North to its roadshows, particularly when it is visiting around the Border region. All the career guidance teachers are invited in to explain what the chances of acceptance are in the CAO and stuff like that. The CAO involves them and it also sets out stands at careers opportunity events in Northern Ireland. I could suss out a bit more for the Senator with the Institute of Guidance Counsellors on exactly what level of engagement it has, its level of awareness and its willingness to share knowledge about the UK system. I think the Senator is right that sometimes it is left to the students and pupils to decide that they want to go to Queen's because they want to follow that path. They pursue it out of their own commitment and their own knowledge. We could definitely raise a query with the Institute of Guidance Counsellors just to explore that further.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

Great, thanks.

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

Following up on Mr. McKenna's comments on career guidance, one thing that the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science is focusing on in the next year is developing a kind of a common portal where not only students leaving school but also lifelong learners are able to access everything in one portal, including further education, lifelong learning, higher education, apprenticeships, traineeships and whatever. I think it is important that perhaps we recommend there is information in that portal around travel to Northern Ireland and opportunities there. To answer the Senator's question around how many students from the Republic of Ireland are going to other parts of the UK, as we have pointed out there are 2,170 going to Northern Ireland. There are 4,790 going to England, 2,375 going to Scotland and 365 going to Wales. Scotland is the only jurisdiction that has increased its enrolments from the Republic of Ireland students. The numbers going to England and Wales have declined quite a bit over the last few years, and Northern Ireland is steady. That is the comparison.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

That is interesting. There should not really be any more, in some respects, going to any one of the other countries. I think it is very welcome news that the portal will also include Northern Ireland or that is certainly-----

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

The recommendations.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

-----being recommended. It is possibly not a question for the witnesses. I think it is really welcome that the Department will follow up on the career guidance. I think it is also important that teachers feel supported in it and that it is not just a further burden, as I have said. That is what is happening to teachers. It is one thing on top of another. I think that they would welcome the information so that students had access.

Mr. Ian McKenna

While acknowledging the increase in numbers going to Scotland and so on, to which the Senator has referred, there is a caveat I would attach to that. The time period for which that data were gathered was up to 2020 to 2021. From 2021 onwards, Scotland will be charging Irish students, whereas previously they were not charged. That may start influencing some of the statistics on the numbers heading over to Scotland. We just have to wait and see.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

Again, that comes back to the idea of what is in it for students. Price point, choice and all of those elements have to be part of the conversation. I thank the witnesses.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee, and particularly Ms Cousins for coming down. I am conscious that it is difficult for civil servants in circumstances where they do not have ministerial direction at present. Ms Cousins mentioned that in the final paragraph of her statement and we are very aware of that. I want to start by asking her some questions. In respect of higher education she mentioned that there was a decline in Republic of Ireland student enrolments in Northern Ireland, but there has been a bit of a reversal since Brexit. Is that in any way linked to a decline in the number of students from outside the UK and Ireland coming to Northern Irish universities any more because of Brexit?

Ms Heather Cousins

Interestingly, looking at the figures, the enrolments from England, Wales, Scotland etc. have actually increased, so the numbers overall have not declined because the decline in the numbers from the Republic have been matched by an increase in numbers from elsewhere.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Did Northern Ireland previously have many students registering from the EU, outside of the UK and Ireland?

Ms Heather Cousins

Very small numbers.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I think there has been some decline in Britain recently as a result of Brexit, in that foreign students are not coming. Ms Cousins does not think that is affecting Northern Ireland.

Ms Heather Cousins

No. We have not felt that impact. There has also been quite a substantial increase in the numbers of international students coming to Northern Ireland.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Okay, good. Is that postgraduate or undergraduate?

Ms Heather Cousins

It is both undergraduate and postgraduate.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

On the topic of the CAO system and the UCAS system that operates in Northern Ireland at present, under the CAO system students do not get offered a place until after they have received their results, whereas in Northern Ireland and the UK, they get a conditional acceptance in advance of their results. Is that correct?

Ms Heather Cousins

Yes, that is correct.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

One of the points Ms Cousins mentioned was that students from Ireland who are given conditional acceptances do not take up the places in Northern Ireland presumably because they get offers from the CAO. I had not realised that the universities in Northern Ireland then cannot proceed to fill those places. Why is that, if it they are just conditional acceptances?

Ms Heather Cousins

It is because after the results come out, there is a period called the clearing period, where people can change courses or get a different place if they did not get the grades they wanted. Last year, because of the delay in getting the results out here that window had closed and therefore the universities could not fill those places.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Is that due to the fact that in the last two or three years the leaving certificate results have been issued very late?

Ms Heather Cousins

Yes.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Pre-Covid, was it as much of an issue?

Ms Heather Cousins

It was not as much of an issue. It would still be the case that towards the very end students decided not to take up their offers from Northern Ireland, but not as much as in the past two years. Hopefully, that was the worst of it.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

In his opening statement, Mr. McKenna mentioned that Medicine was one of the areas that the Department was looking at to see whether the demand for the course that exists in Ireland could be met by spaces in Northern Ireland. Why is it that students in Northern Ireland are not taking up places and there is not the same demand for Medicine as there is here?

Mr. Ian McKenna

I might refer to Ms Cousins on that. Our engagement with the two institutions in the North has been very positive. We are certainly working in a very positive context to try to progress this issue. On the number of places, similar to the Republic, the number of places that may be offered in Medicine in the North are limited. The institutions are indicating to us that they have some capacity to take additional places, but they are limited in terms of what the Department for the Economy has allowed them to use.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Funding.

Mr. Ian McKenna

We are seeking to use the spare capacity that exists within those institutions. That is where the discussions are taking place.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Is there in some way less demand in Northern Ireland from students to do Medicine than there is here?

Mr. Ian McKenna

No, it is highly valued.

Ms Heather Cousins

If I could add to that, it is purely a budgetary issue. The money for the medical places comes from the Department for Health to us based on its workforce planning numbers. That is capped. Even if the universities have spare capacity, it cannot be used.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Dr. Patterson mentioned the Erasmus scheme in her opening statement. Am I correct in saying that students in Northern Ireland will not be able to avail of an Erasmus scheme after 2023?

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

There are still some discussions ongoing.

Mr. Ian McKenna

We are engaging with the institutions in the North to address that. The Government has committed to protect Erasmus mobility for Northern Ireland students.

We are working with the institutions to have a scheme in place for next August.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

On the point that Senator O’Reilly raised, this is not a political issue. This is about trying to recognise the benefit of students availing of cross-jurisdictional study, whether they go to Northern Ireland or not or elsewhere. Does Dr. Patterson think there is a benefit in that?

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

Yes, absolutely. There are students who come down specifically to study certain subjects that they may not be able to avail of in Northern Ireland – that is a fact – for example, veterinary or some specialised kind of arts and humanities. If we look at student engagement, we see that international students have a good experience in the higher education institutions in Ireland. There is a benefit for them. Many people stay in the country afterwards and work. We see that they are integrated, there is good engagement with Republic of Ireland students and engagement within the institutions. It seems to be a positive experience for anybody coming into the country to study higher education.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Mr. Brownlee mentioned that many students in Ireland go on to do further education in Northern Ireland, particularly in popular courses such as nursing and social care. Do we know what happens to them after they get their degrees in Northern Ireland? Do many come back here? Does Mr. Brownlee have any data on that?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

We do not have exact data on how many go back. However, taking nursing, for example, we have about 800 post-leaving certificate, PLC, graduates every year from further education, which is a level 5 on the national framework of qualifications, NFQ. About 26% of them go directly into the higher education institutions in the Republic of Ireland. Another 600 go somewhere else. We can track them to some degree. An awful lot of them go to UK universities. Generally, they will come back. There are no quality issues, so they will come back after three, four or five years, perhaps after working in Australia or somewhere else. The key is to try to address that through places and placements. The HEA is running a process at the moment to look at that.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

The qualifications to work are similar in both jurisdictions.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

Yes, they absolutely are.

Deputy Carol Nolan

I thank everyone for the briefing. What can SOLAS do to promote apprenticeships and traineeships here to students in the North? What is being done currently or what measures are being taken to make sure that students understand how the NFQ levels translate? Is a body of work already taking place? What needs to be done to ensure that apprenticeship requirements and legislation recognising qualifications are in place in both jurisdictions?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

We have a job of work, not just in terms of increasing the attractiveness of further education and apprenticeships to Northern Ireland students, but also to our own students. It is a very complex system. Nobody in Northern Ireland, for example, would understand what a PLC is, a traineeship is or what specific skills training is. However, they are courses that can take a person into interesting careers and occupations. There are also courses that have currency in higher education, where higher education institutions would recognise the qualifications a person gets. A bit of it is awareness raising and a bit of it is trying to simplify those courses and say, for example, this course in mechanical engineering will take you into year two of a degree in Atlantic Technical University, ATU, or whatever, whereas another course will take you directly into employment with the manufacturing sector. We need to simplify it. Again, that is not unique for trying to attract Northern Ireland students; we need to focus on that more widely.

There is a big opportunity for further education and training and apprenticeship around that centre of excellence idea. I mentioned that the Louth and Meath ETB developed a consortium around advanced manufacturing that works both North and South. Cavan-Monaghan have good links as well and they are involved in engineering. They have a great employer, namely, Combilift, that attracts workers North and South and it is a good apprenticeship programme. In Donegal, there is one at Pramerica around software engineering. We have specialisms that we could use to drive that cross-Border activity and serve as a resource for the whole of the island. That is the niche that further education and training needs to focus on. If people can see the pathway into interesting careers and interesting industries, that is what will make them come.

Chairman

I wish to ask the panel of witnesses about the huge issue at the moment regarding the shortage of vets. There is talk of the location of a veterinary college in southern Ireland. Perhaps I could get both North and South views on it. Does the North have the same shortage of vets as the South does?

Mr. Ian McKenna

I do not have sufficient knowledge of that to offer an opinion. My colleagues on the higher education side would and I can certainly get them to respond to the Chair directly on that, if that is okay with him.

Chairman

Yes, absolutely.

Mr. Ian McKenna

I appreciate the point about additional veterinary places and the possibilities there. I refer to the North-South perspective on opportunities for collaboration on the provision of places. It is something that has been explored in the context, if you like, of medicine, and that is a positive context. Whether the same appetite would be there for veterinary would have to be explored as well in that same guise.

Ms Heather Cousins

I am aware that there have been some conversations in the North about veterinary medicine and the fact that is becoming increasingly difficult to get places where traditionally people would have gone to study veterinary medicine. It is the most expensive higher education course that there is. It would be a case of saying “What do you stop doing if that is what you want to do?” because there is no more additional funding. We are having difficult discussions with the agriculture department, etc. We are saying that if this is a high priority, perhaps they could contribute from their budget to that.

Chairman

In southern Ireland, a huge number of students have to go overseas. Many of them go to mainland UK. After going to mainland UK, a large percentage remain there and do not come back. There is much conversation now about where to locate another veterinary college in southern Ireland. That is an ongoing debate.

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

There is an expression of interest process ongoing within the HEA. A panel has been appointed to look at the submissions. It ranges from veterinary to dentistry, medicine and other medical areas. A process is ongoing with that and the results should be out in the next few months.

Chairman

Is Dr. Patterson aware of any collaboration between North and South on this issue?

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

I am not aware of that. I do not think so. I would have to check but I am not aware of it.

Chairman

I think there is an opportunity that there will be collaboration between North and South on the issue. Both jurisdictions will be involved because they could help each other. It is an opportunity to bring both jurisdictions closer together. Does Mr. Brownlee want to comment on that?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

We do not really deal with veterinary provision, so it is probably not one for us.

Chairman

Not yet.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

Not yet. Perhaps the Chair wants to recommend that.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

On the veterinary issue, it is critical that the accreditation covers the whole of the island. There is a responsibility to have collaboration on that, wherever that school is. There is no veterinary school in the North. We need a veterinary school that will serve all of the island. That is one of my Priority Questions to the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Simon Harris later today. It is vital. We have to get this right.

From our work and engagement with the sector, it is obvious that the single biggest barrier to students coming South is the system of converting the A-levels to the leaving certificate points. As six leaving certificate subjects are used for scoring four A-level subjects, it was determined that the leaving certificate higher qualification was two thirds of an A-level. It is broadly recognised to disadvantage students from the North. I speak to students all the time about this. The maximum number of CAO points an A-level student studying the normal number of three A-level subjects can achieve is 550 points if three A* grades are achieved, while a leaving certificate student studying the normal number of six leaving certificate subjects can achieve a maximum of 625 points.

Although students can choose to study additional subjects, three subjects tends to be the norm. However, it is kind of like expecting students in the South to do eight subjects for their leaving certificate. It can be done but very few do it. The system for providing additional points for higher level maths also disadvantages students from the North given the different systems. The need for a modern European language for many courses is another barrier. We cannot hide behind these things. We can research the matter and research it again in ten years' time but we have to listen to what students are telling us. I meet them in the car parks of Trinity and in other places. I talk to students who managed to break through all of these barriers but they really have been up against it and we have a collective responsibility to address those barriers. That is the one thing I would leave the witnesses with today. I know I have not left them much time to answer but theirs are the key organisations in making this happen and the committee will work with them to make sure that it does.

I say to Mr. Brownlee that, even though the numbers have not moved much since, I can very clearly see what SOLAS is trying to achieve and the willingness in all of the strands he outlined. I expect that we will begin to see the results of what it is doing in the numbers in further education.

I will finish up by thanking Ms Cousins for being with us today. Her presence is crucial and I hope she will continue to work with us for the benefit of everybody on the island. We are mostly talking about young people, but this involves people right across the life cycle. We are all conscious of our responsibilities and I see a willingness to work across the island to create opportunities.

Mr. Ian McKenna

The point about the A levels is well made. We will certainly take that away with us.

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

Having looked at the most recent CAO booklet, I believe the maximum points available are actually 625 and 600. It may have been revised a little bit since 2019.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

So, is it 600? Will Dr. Patterson go through that?

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

It is 625 if you take in additional points for A level maths. If you are looking at universities and associated colleges, the maximum number of points is 600.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Students in the North can achieve 600 points with three A* grades. Does Ms Cousins know if that is correct? I had a lower number but I stand to be corrected.

Ms Heather Cousins

I am afraid I do not know. That would be a matter for the Department of Education.

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

I am just quoting from the CAO handbook.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

If the gap is narrowing, that is certainly a good thing. That is the way to go. There should be an equivalence in matriculation across the board. I am very conscious that the leaving certificate results will be coming out at the beginning of September again this year, which will have an impact on what we are trying to achieve here. The committee has work to do to bring that forward and get those results out more quickly.

Chairman

I reiterate that there is an issue regarding veterinarian training that both Deputy Conway-Walsh and I have mentioned. It has been mentioned in this committee a number of times. I thank the officials for coming today and briefing the committee. It has been very informative and beneficial. I thank Ms Cousins for coming from Belfast today to share her knowledge and expertise. It is very much appreciated. I hope she found the meeting beneficial and worthwhile, just as the committee found hearing her perspectives. We will now suspend for a few minutes before bringing in our other witnesses.

Sitting suspended at 12.14 p.m. and resumed at 12.21 p.m.

Chairman

On behalf of the committee at the start of session 2 I welcome Mr. Frank Jones, general secretary of the Irish Federation of University Teachers, IFUT, who is also representing the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU; and Mr. Colm Kelly, general secretary of the Teachers’ Union of Ireland, TUI.

The University College Union, UCU; the Union of Students of Ireland, USI; the National Union of Students, NUS; the Union of Students of Ireland, USI; and SIPTU were invited to appear before the committee today but none was able to attend due to other business. The NUS sent a written submission to which the USI contributed and it will be uploaded to the Oireachtas website.

I welcome Mr. Eoin Griffin, assistant general secretary of the TUI who is in the Public Gallery. The witnesses have been invited to discuss North-South enrolment in tertiary education. The form of the meeting is that I will invite both witnesses to make brief opening statements in the following order. Mr. Jones will speak first and then Mr. Kelly. The statements will be followed by questions from members of the committee who each have a five minute slot. As the witnesses are likely aware, we will publish their opening statements on the website following today’s meeting.

I have already reminded members of the long-standing parliamentary practice with respect to parliamentary privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the chair to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative to comply with such direction.

Mr. Frank Jones

The IFUT welcomes the opportunity to take part in this discussion on a matter that is of great importance to those we represent across the sector. Our membership extends across many key levels of higher education and includes lecturers, tutors, librarians and researchers in the Republic of Ireland. While we do not represent those working in the sector in Northern Ireland, the IFUT is affiliated to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, the all-island union federation that represents workers in all areas of the economy, North and South of the border. The IFUT is affiliated to the British and Irish Group of Teacher Unions, BIGTU, as is the TUI. As such, we bring an essential perspective to this important debate.

We welcome the report on this subject produced by the committee last July and indeed the work of the rapporteur in formatting and compiling the report in such a clear and concise manner. This report has been shared with our membership and has been the subject of some discussion. The IFUT has published material on the issue of university entrance requirements as far back as the late 1970s and we note that some of the challenges we identified then remain a core part of this committee’s report. While the recent research carried out by The Irish Times and Analysing and Researching Ireland North and South, ARINS, does not specifically investigate the differences between those living North or South of the Border, it informs us that two thirds of people in the Republic say they have no friends in Northern Ireland; more than 80 % say they have no relations there; and more than half have not travelled across the Border in the past five years. These statistics must resonate with us and point to the fact that every effort should be made at every level to ensure greater integration between all people on our island.

The significant funding crisis across further and higher education in the Republic is matched in Northern Ireland and their situation is made ever more dire by repeated calls on the Education Authority to make additional cuts in spending. Despite the significant efforts of this committee to address the key problem of funding by way of its comprehensive and commendable report entitled The Future Funding of Higher Education, those of us working in the sector can confirm that the situation remains largely unchanged. This in turn hampers all efforts to build and develop a sustainable sector that can accommodate and cater for the needs of all who work and study within it, whatever their origins. Indeed, the committee’s report on North South Student Enrolment in Tertiary Education acknowledges this fact, noting that many of the proposals outlined in the report will be contingent on putting a sustainable funding model in place for third level education. The report goes on to state that it is vitally important the investment is made without delay. Regrettably, I can advise the committee that despite the acceptance by government of the recommendations contained in the report on future funding, it is evident to us in the IFUT and the ICTU that the necessary urgency required to tackle key issues such as widespread precarity of employment across the sector has been largely absent to date. Again, we cannot hope to build a sustainable sector on the basis of widespread insecurity.

The Employment Control Framework for the Higher Education Sector 2011-2014 remains the go-to excuse to explain why vacancies are not filled properly and why short fixed-term contracts of employment are preferred over permanent contracts, even in cases where the vacancies are permanent. The persistence of what is ultimately a self-defeating policy for the sector creates a myriad of fundamental problems for all who work and study in further and higher education. Thus, student:staff ratios have not improved and currently stand at 23:1 in stark contrast to the OECD average of 15:1 and many of the staff are engaged on precarious employment contracts and paid only for the hours that they spend in front of students. Recommendation No. 9 from the future funding report points out that the employment control Framework, ECF, is completely arbitrary and needs to be abolished, yet almost one year later it remains in place. It impedes the progress of many positive initiatives undertaken across the sector, including progress on issues relating to North-South enrolment, as set out and identified by this committee.

The IFUT and the ICTU recognise and share the ambitions of this committee but feel compelled to highlight the urgency with which the issue of sustainable funding needs to be addressed as it is the root of the many problems evident in our sector and, as already noted, acts as a barrier to the progress of essential initiatives such as that being discussed here today. We look forward to continued dialogue and engagement with the committee on this issue.

I thank the committee for its attention and welcome the opportunity to discuss any points arising from this.

Mr. Colm Kelly

The TUI represents more than 21,000 teachers, lecturers and staff in education and training boards, ETBs, voluntary secondary schools, community and comprehensive schools, Youthreach programmes, institutes of technology and technological universities and those working in out-of-school services. As noted by the National Plan for Equity of Access to Higher Education 2015-2019 “as a country we have everything to gain and nothing to lose by increasing levels of participation in higher education”. The TUI believes higher education should be available as a public good to all who want it. The TUI’s position in this regard includes access for citizens of Ireland to the further and higher education institutions in the North of Ireland and also access for Northern Irish students to our institutions here in Ireland. The TUI is particularly proud of its involvement in both the education and training board sector and the technological university sector, formerly the institutes of technology sector. These sectors focus on regional provision of a broad and accessible range of education and training options and provide for both progression and employment. The regional mission of the technological university, TU, sector is not only enshrined in all relevant agreements, but is underpinned by the TU legislation. It is also recognised that the technological university sector provides an economic and social benefit as well as providing access for priority groups, such as the Traveller and Roma communities, through the type of flexible learning routes that are a mainstay of the sector. Equally, the current further education and training, FET, strategy adopted by SOLAS seeks to ensure that ETBs have regard to broad accessibility which is potentially supportive of a complementary system of North-South student enrolment in tertiary education.

In the development of the implementation of the FET strategy, it will remain important to have cognisance of both a breadth of access options and a breadth of progression options. The FET strategy is less clear on how best to develop progression options. More consideration is required to avoid a neo-liberal drift into prioritising the labour market ahead of progression, and transitions between, further and higher education. The TUI is confident that the committee will share our concern about education being important in its own right and that progression to higher levels on the National Framework of Qualifications is as valuable to society as industry-focused courses. In regard to such progression however, the TUI notes the establishment of a specific office to manage the developing unified tertiary education policy which will seek to strengthen the progression routes between further and higher education.

It will be important as part of this valuable work to have regard both to ensuring smooth progressions and transitions between the Irish curricula and those available in Northern Ireland, and also those in Europe more broadly. Returning to regional provision, it will be important to ensure a broad curriculum for further education and training in the ETBs closest to the Border, namely, Cavan and Monaghan ETB, CMETB, Louth and Meath ETB, LMETB, Donegal ETB and Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim ETB, MSLETB. For example, the TUI notes that work in relation to the unified tertiary education strategy is commencing in some of these ETBs with a particular focus on progression to the Atlantic Technological University, ATU. This work will have regard both to the potential for students from Northern Ireland seeking access to ATU and, indeed, students from MSLETB seeking entry into courses in higher education institutions, HEIs, in Northern Ireland and the potential for transitions to and between further education and training institutions on both sides of the Border.

Regarding the provision of higher education in Ireland the TUI continues to be disappointed by the failure to ensure a pathway for Dundalk Institute of Technology, DkIT, into the Technological University Sector. It is an unconscionable failure of the State in not providing for such a provision in the north east, for students and communities on both sides of the Border. The TUI continues to demand the intercession of the Government to support such a pathway for DkIT. In short, the TUI would offer the following by way of recommendations for the consideration of the committee: that DkIT must be provided with all necessary support to secure its position within, or as, a technological university for the north east; that significant investment in access programmes is required; ongoing mutual recognition of further and higher education programmes between the North and South, despite Brexit; the size of SUSI grants and eligibility criteria for same should be significantly expanded and the TUI welcomes the current ongoing review of SUSI in this regard; Exchequer funding of higher education must be dramatically increased, it is the TUI's position that a 1% levy should be applied to corporation profits in order to generate a dedicated fund for higher education; staff-student ratios in higher education urgently need to be reduced; apprenticeships should have greater support and visibility and funding models must take account of the unique role that the technological sector plays in higher education access. I look forward to the rest of the discussion.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. There is a good deal in their statement that we can use and work on. Some of the points we will not have time to discuss here today are certainly noted. I thank IFUT for its engagement and work on this issue, and for sharing the report prepared by the committee as well. Its membership is important and I acknowledge it. I believe IFUT’s opening statement grasps the importance of the topic. It referenced the research recently published by The Irish Times and the ARINS project. I also acknowledge its references to Fr. Mícheál Mac Gréil, ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam dílis. IFUT cited some of the reports he did on prejudice and tolerance in Ireland and plurality and diversity as well. The huge amount of work he did across the Border is well documented. His legacy will live on in that.

Does IFUT believe that the barrier to students going North and South is a substantial contributing factor? Does it believe that reform in this area could make progress in addressing this? Are there any issues or challenges in regard to the increasing cross-Border enrolment from the side of the unions that we may not have anticipated? That is my main question. However, IFUT rightly places the under-funding of third level education front and centre. It is of great concern that no discernible progress has been made in regard to the student-teacher ratios or the widespread precarious employment in the sector. The current funding levels and incentive structures on both side of the Border leave no space for institutions actively to engage in promoting cross-Border enrolment at undergraduate level. Does IFUT believe that the under-funding is currently one of the reasons that the HEIs have been unable individually to put initiatives in place to help to overcome the barriers to cross-Border enrolment?

Does the TUI believe that the development of the technological universities can help to increase cross-Border enrolment, particularly from North to South? What support will the TUs and DkIT need to deliver on that potential? In its submission the TUI calls for a 1% levy on corporation profits to fund higher education. This is a TUI position which it put forward previously. Does it have additional information on this in terms of how much revenue it would generate? How would it operate alongside the national training fund? Would it operate alongside it or would it replace it?

Mr. Frank Jones

Do I know of any unanticipated obstacles as it stands right now? Have I any inside track? No, not other than what I have said already and what the TUI has covered. We covered some of the issues related to funding and travel for students. I have not read the USI’s submission as the Deputy has done, but I have no doubt that travel is included in that. There are a few positive initiatives. Let us be positive. Some North-South initiatives have worked very well. One is the Irish Association for American Studies and its projects, North and South. The concern I have about dedicated North-South projects and the funding and contracting of them, would be, particularly in research projects, not to introduce any new precarious situations. I believe there are opportunities, there is funding, and they will have to work with us in the trade unions to promote this. It will break down some of the barriers further. It is terrible that, 50 years later, after the research that Fr. Mac Gréil relied on, here we are with a situation that is not too different. We will definitely work with the committee. Do I know more than we have said? No.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Well that is a positive. As Mr. Jones said, communication is important. We must deal with any matters that arise as we go along when this is developed and new legislation is implemented.

Mr. Colm Kelly

In regard to issues and challenges the union is aware of, the speakers from the HEA and SOLAS have set out their various strategies. However, the SOLAS FET strategy is dependent on an FET staffing structure that is not in existence as yet. The TUI has for ten years been engaging on a staffing structure for the organisational design of education and training boards. As we approach the tenth anniversary of the formation of education and training boards there still is not a clear FET staffing strategy, not for the want of the trade unions - ourselves, SIPTU, FORSA and AHCPS - seeking a strategy from ETBI, from the Department of Education initially and then the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. The implementation of the FET strategy, which is a very fine strategy, will be dependent on ensuring that it has an FET staffing structure to match the requirements of that strategy, that provides programmes in an accessible and understandable way for students on both sides of the Border.

In terms of presenting those programmes accessibly, some excellent work is going on which the TUI has highlighted in its submission in the Minister’s new unified tertiary education strategy. As that work commences we are aware of projects that a number of our members are involved in, in particular a project run by the Technological Higher Education Association on recognition of prior learning, RPL. While at the moment it does not consider RPL that might be gained in the North, it is a broad project that considers the recognition of prior learning where it seeks to assess lifelong learning and other life experiences very broadly. If THEA could be encouraged to give consideration to extending that project across the Border it may be of benefit to the implementation of the committee’s recommendations. Equally, there is work going on in the HEA on microcredentials. That is work that should have cross-Border consideration.

In regard to the development of TUs, accessibility of pathways into TUs is something of which the TUI is proud. The TU sector traditionally had more access programmes and access routes have been more available, as we said in our submission, to a variety of different communities, including communities that may not have a second language.

That is an issue for Northern Irish students who have completed A Levels, in seeking access to higher education in the South. Certainly the technological universities enshrined mission to provide for regional provision highlights that. Regional provision will require consideration of Dundalk Institute of Technology's position within the technological university sector to ensure it is a core part of the sector.

In relation to the question on our position on the 1%, I do not have the facts and figures here with me, but we can send them on to the committee.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank Mr. Jones and Mr. Kelly for coming before the committee and for their very interesting contributions in their opening statements.

Mr. Jones raised some very important points in the opening part of his statement which referenced the work of Fr. Micheál McGréil. We do not emphasise this enough or maybe not sufficient attention is given to it and I am not trying to politicise the witness because he is not a political figure, but partition, if one looks at it objectively has had a very destructive impact on relationships on the island and integration that existed on the island. There is evidence for this when one looks at Fr. MacGréil's study, which came out 50 years later. Does Mr. Jones think things have improved since the 1970's in any way in terms of integration of education on the island?

Mr. Frank Jones

No, I do not think there has been any significant improvement. If anything, there has been a deterioration in recent years, further compounded by the facts relayed in the report. The late leaving certificate which was mentioned in the earlier session as well, is doing nothing to help. That is something very much within the control here to address. I do not think that is an issue attached to massive funding. I do not think there is the focus on the North-South enrolment and integration that there should be.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

If one looks at some educational institutions, at the time of partition, the education of lawyers changed, obviously, because there were two different jurisdictions from then on. It seems to have happened in other educational disciplines as well that the links between the educational establishments seemed to be completely eradicated after partition. I am not trying to put blame on university establishments. This is a national question, but in terms of educational establishments themselves, does Mr. Jones think that after partition, many of them decided not to look to the links across the Border, which they previously had?

Mr. Frank Jones

I think we all did that. I mentioned that we are a part, as are our colleagues in the TUI, of the British and Irish group of teachers unions. For the first time this year, we took an opportunity with all our colleagues across Great Britain to have a look at the entry requirements into tertiary education, the differences that exist and the need for those differences. I know that is a major of focus of this committee. We all need to be talking to each other a lot more about this. We have made the barriers and we are making things a little bit more difficult than they need to be.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Perhaps those barriers were created for a specific political purpose. Many years ago, people wanted to see barriers up. As we know, when barriers are installed it is sometimes much more difficult to remove them.

Are the witnesses' colleagues in third level institutions in Northern Ireland on strike at present?

Mr. Frank Jones

Yes, the University and College Union, UCU, is on strike at the moment.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Part of the reason for that is the terms of employment and pay. Mr. Jones mentioned the precarity of employment in Ireland. A couple of years ago we had a person before this committee who was a PhD student lecturing in a third level institution in Ireland. We were shocked at what he was being paid for lecturing. Have things improved in any way?

Mr. Frank Jones

No. I do not like answering the question with just one word with two letters in it but "no". Many of the people we represent are facing that exact same situation where they get paid only for the hour that they are facing the students. The UCU is facing the same situation across the UK. Unfortunately, it has gotten no better, despite assurances arising from the great work this committee has done.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

It is a perfectly legitimate argument to say we need to fund third level education much more in order that people do not remain in precarity of employment. Are the universities using PhD students too much and not paying them enough or is it unfair to criticise the third level institutions?

Mr. Frank Jones

Of course I am going to say things could be done better. While it is an issue it is not the most serious. There are several different arrangements. If we had our preferred arrangement, PhD students would be considered to be employees and would be covered under the industrial relations legislation. Some are and some are not. Some are for some of the work they do. The real issue is the casualisation when it comes to those delivering the lectures and the abuse of the fixed-term legislation, for example, repeatedly rolling out short-term contracts to cover for where long-term needs exist.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Does the witness apportion any criticism to the third level institutions in doing that or is it all the fault of the Exchequer?

Mr. Frank Jones

No, I do not believe it is all the fault of the Exchequer. If we received a circular tomorrow to say the employment control framework is no longer in existence, would the situation be fixed? No, it would not. There are a few hurdles to be overcome and all the funding in the world without the right strategies will not do anything either. We need to do what is contained within the Funding the Future report, what the recommendations say that we should do. The commitments that were given afterwards of what would be done have not been met yet.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I address these questions to Mr. Kelly. We spoke in the previous session about the different schemes that apply for students leaving school seeking to enter third level institutions in Ireland and Northern Ireland. In the former, it is the CAO. Offers of places are made after the examination results come out. In the latter it is UCAS and one gets a conditional acceptance. Is there a way to make the two schemes compatible with each other or will it be extremely difficult to do so?

Mr. Colm Kelly

The TUI takes the position that it is time to look at the CAO system itself, with a view to establishing whether the current points system is fit for purpose given that it has not been properly analysed in the past 23 years. The CAO has made some efforts in the past few years to accommodate further education and training and apprenticeships. However, it has been very light touch and very surface level in that the CAO website simply carried what was effectively a link back to the central application process for apprenticeships and further education. In terms of Ireland, all we can do is look at the CAO system. To make it more accessible, both for students in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, it would be important to review how further education and training is placed within the CAO system.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I note the view of the TUI about Dundalk Institute of Technology and how that part of the island would benefit from a technological university.

Mr. Colm Kelly

Absolutely, yes. There are two remaining institutes of technology that have not sought technological university status. The other institutes of technology formed consortiums that then applied for technological university status thus establishing Munster Technological University, MTU, the Technological University of the Shannon, TUS and the Atlantic Technological University, ATU. Dundalk kept itself out of the process, as has the Dún Laoghaire Institute of Art, Design and Technology, IADT. The TUI views this as a mistake and that the two institutions should now be seeking, possibly under a different parts of the Technological Universities Act 2018, technological university status under any process available to them. In the last session, the HEA mentioned the technological university transformation funding, TUTF, and the landscape funding that it was issuing. The TUTF and landscape funding is going to Dundalk and IADT, and yet we see no progress in terms of moving those institutions into a technological university. It is our position that the HEA has a part to play as well in assisting the two institutions in seeking technical university status.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I want to go back to the point I raised with Mr. Jones at the start. That part of the island was particularly affected by partition because there were very strong relationships between Newry, Dundalk and Drogheda and that whole region.

Does Mr. Kelly believe that a technological university would play a role in rebuilding avenues of communication between people educationally there?

Mr. Colm Kelly

Education always plays a role in rebuilding those kinds of avenues and, indeed, as we know ourselves from our membership of 21,000, many of our members in Donegal Education and Training Board, in the Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim Education and Training Board and in the Dundalk Institute of Technology cross the Border every morning to go to work and go home. We completely see the value in those education institutions from a number of different perspectives.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank Mr. Kelly and the Chair.

Chairman

Does Deputy Conway-Walsh wish to make a further contribution?

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I invite our guests to take the opportunity to add anything else, if they wish. I very much hear what they are saying in respect of the precarious working conditions, which are quite shocking. I believe I have quoted on this committee before where one woman was on temporary contracts for 18 years with no maternity leave, ability to buy a house or to make any financial commitment whatsoever. This is about the dual aspect of the personal impact that that is having but also in respect of what we are teaching our youngsters. Who is colluding with whom to ensure that that system stays in place? This very much has to be addressed.

Deputy O’Callaghan and I, and other members of this committee, are very conscious of that and want to do something to change it as it cannot be left the way it is.

I do not have any further questions unless there is anything further the witnesses may wish to add to the statements they have already made, which are quite powerful.

Mr. Colm Kelly

There is one issue which was addressed in the earlier session which might be worth mentioning in this session and that is the guidance services. The Department of Education dismantled the National Centre for Guidance in Education in the past year with a view to changing its structure or introducing a new structure for guidance education. It remains to be seen, particularly in respect of vocational education and training, VET, guidance education, how that is going to be structured. That is again linked into the VET staffing structures within education training boards. How will the guidance provision be structured in such a way as to ensure there are suitable pathways that all guidance counsellors in secondary schools understand through further education and on into higher education?

Also, we have grades, such as the adult education guidance counsellors, which is a specific grade for further education students, to access and give them some direction in respect of their academic and career progress. It remains to be seen, as part of that organisation and design strategy, and indeed SOLAS’s VET strategy, how those guidance provisions will assist in ensuring the proper implementation of those strategies.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I am very glad Mr. Kelly brought that up because I have had conversations with people around that and am very concerned because, as Mr. Kelly knows, it is vitally important that the people who those guidance counsellors reach, above any other sector, are properly structured, resourced and given the impetus that is necessary in order for people to be able to engage, progress and fulfil their full potential. I thank the Chair.

Chairman

I thank the Deputy. Deputy O’Callaghan does not wish to make any further contribution.

I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee today during the discussions in both session 1 and session 2 which have been very productive and of great importance to our committee’s work on the North-South dimension. This meeting is now adjourned.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.54 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 21 February 2023.