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Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Feb 2023

Science, Technology, Engineering and Maths, STEM, in Irish Education: Discussion

I remind members to make sure that their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment of the House, even in silent mode. Are the minutes of our meeting of 21 February 2023 agreed? Agreed.

This morning we are meeting with school management bodies. On behalf of the committee I welcome Mr. John Irwin, general secretary of the Association of Community and Comprehensive Schools; Mr. John Curtis, general secretary of the Joint Managerial Body; and Dr. Martin Gormley, director of schools at Donegal Education and Training Board, representing Education and Training Boards Ireland. The Irish Primary Principals Network, IPPN, and the National Association of Boards of Management in Special Education were invited, but declined to attend due to other important business. The IPPN has provided a written submission for members' consideration. The witnesses are here to discuss the furthering of science, technology, engineering and maths, STEM, in Irish education.

The format of the meeting is that I will invite the witnesses to make a brief opening statement, in the following order: Mr. Irwin, Mr. Curtis and Dr. Gormley. This will be followed by contributions and questions from members of the committee. As the witnesses may be aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on our website.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the Chair to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such direction from the Chair.

I invite Mr. Irwin, Mr. Curtis and Dr. Gormley to make their opening statements. They have five minutes each.

Mr. John Irwin

I thank the committee for the invitation to speak today. The Association of Community and Comprehensive Schools, ACCS, represents 97 post-primary schools across the State. They are multidenominational schools, all but two of which are co-educational schools. They have an enrolment of more than 65,000 post-primary students. We are the representative management body for those schools. In that organisation there are a number of sub-committees that are involved in different aspects of research and work. We have an ICT sub-committee, which particularly in recent years with the Covid pandemic, has looked at how we can reach out to students in those areas. The sub-committees also look at areas across STEM. Looking at this particular piece, we welcome the STEM Education Policy Statement 2017-2026, which was put in place. We also welcome the research underpinning that, which was published in the report, STEM Education in the Irish School System. Those are two documents that looked at where we would have liked to see this go between 2017 and 2026. Like others, we acknowledge that some of the progress has been stymied or slowed in certain areas on the basis of what has happened over the past two or three years with the pandemic. We welcomed the establishment of the baseline data as an initial step. In addition, the monitoring of trends of engagement, progression and achievement are essential aspects of this particular plan and to any prospect of success. Decisions must be based on reliable and informed data. It is also welcome that many strengths in the STEM education system are identified in Ireland, but a number of challenges exist. Among those, it is important to ensure that Irish students learning in STEM disciplines significantly improve their development of skills such as problem solving, inquiry-based learning and team working to address demands from the world of work. We welcome some of the initiatives in curricular areas such as mathematics. We welcomed project maths and the manner in which it is trying to change work methodologies. We also welcomed many features at junior cycle where we have seen a greater emphasis on practical work in science. There is a need to increase the number of students choosing STEM subjects in post-primary schools. There is also a need to increases the participation of females in STEM education and careers, as well as to raise interest and awareness of a range of exciting careers in STEM. We will refer to that again a little later. We also need to ensure young people sustain their involvement in STEM education.

We have got to look at where we stand internationally, and we very often talk about the quality of our particular education system. Pillar four of the plan, the use of evidence to support science, technology, education and mathematics, STEM education, is essential. When we go out and look at both PISA and TIMSS, which are the two comparative tests that are used internationally, it is interesting to note that in STEM areas we perform below average, which is a cause for concern. That is below average for our higher performing students, for that top 10% cohort. We actually perform well for the vast majority of our cohort, but at the very top end, in the top 10%, if you take a look at the results that came in from the OECD, in mathematics 8% of students scored at level 5 or higher, well below the OECD average of 11%. In science, 6% of students in Ireland were top performers, meaning that they were proficient at level 5 or 6, again below the OECD average of 7%. When we consider that what we are trying to achieve here is the ultimate goal of the best STEM education system within the European sector and internationally, we know in that particular cohort of high-achieving students that there is work to be done.

Interestingly - and Professor Anne Looney spoke about this previously - we achieve very highly at literacy levels, and again if we take a look at literacy levels in the PISA results, 12% of students in Ireland were top performers in reading, while the OECD average was 9%. Is there a sort of cultural imprint here to a certain degree, and an idea in Ireland that we are better with words than numbers? For example, we have all heard of W. B. Yeats and Samuel Beckett, all the way to the modern day with Seamus Heaney, but can we name who our successful scientists and mathematicians are to the same degree? There could be a cultural influence here as well as a balance that need to be addressed.

That whole area of the performance of our highest performing students needs to be looked at it. In TIMSS, we have the same finding. Performance among the highest achieving students is somewhat poorer when compared to their peers in countries with similar overall performance. This is the key issue we need to address at the top level of our education system.

There are numerous strategies to promote STEM, and events such as Science Week, Maths Week, the BT Young Scientist and Technology Exhibition, SciFest, etc., all go a long way towards promoting STEM education and creating those links for young people outside of the classroom. We had a seminar a number of years ago at which an address was given by a professor of education, Professor Alan Kelly, who was originally from Donegal but ended up in the English system. He always referred to "the school outside the gate", and how important it is for the education system to look beyond the confines of the school, and look to the community. I experienced that as a principal, where we engaged with a group which was called Atlantic Corridor but which is now called Midlands Science. We brought in a major project to look at maths, which we were not scoring well at, and our STEM subjects. In the space of four years, with that intervention and by dealing with companies like Abbott Ireland and Ericsson, by working with what was then Athlone Institute of Technology and with local businesses and the community itself and by putting a focus on that with the teachers and students involved and with everybody else, we saw STEM progression increase in the school from 27% to 42%.

These philanthropy groups like Midlands Science, which are funded by the Ireland Funds and other groups, should be continually supported because they bring that relevance. We had Student Voice events on a Friday and Monday within our organisation and with the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA. One of the key things students tell us is that they want relevance. They want it relevant to their lives and their futures. By engaging them directly with employers and third level institutions, it is really worth continuing.

We have seen the wonderful success that the BT Young Scientist and Technology Exhibition can be, and the wonderful impact it can have within schools. Our own school is mentioned in the STEM Education in the Irish School System report, which included a case study of Kinsale Community School, and the actual impact it had. It has an advantage in that the pharmaceutical sector is in that area, but the school is using the resources all around it to support that for those students.

Investment in education is key here. We have got to invest, and it will remain a key priority. That has got to go from initial teacher education to continuing opportunities for staff to engage. Again, I go back to Midlands Science. We were able to bring people to our teachers in schools, both primary and secondary, in the midlands area. We were able to bring over, for example, the likes of John Mighton from the University of Toronto, who leads education in JUMP maths, or junior unidentified maths prodigies. He worked with the staff and students. We could not do that off our own bat because we would not have the finance to do it. We looked outside our jurisdiction to see what they do in other areas to really try to see where it is.

We are doing this against the background, which we will have to accept at the minute, of significant challenges and difficulties in recruiting and retaining teachers in the education system, particularly in the area of STEM. It is something that, to a degree, the Irish education system can be proud of, but our graduates are now in a global market and are prized globally. There must be something right happening in the Irish education system. However, that means we have got to be able to make sure that we provide an attractive offering for our young people coming out of our schools, so that even if they travel for a few years, which many young people want to do, they will return and bring not only the skills they have learned in our colleges, but the skills they have learned overseas to share with our students. We have got to make sure that teaching is an attractive offering, with continual opportunities for professional development. Go raibh míle maith agat, a Chathaoirligh.

I thank Mr. Irwin and call Mr. Curtis.

Mr. John Curtis

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the invitation to participate in the discussion of this important topic. The Joint Managerial Body, JMB, represents roughly 400 voluntary secondary schools in the State.

As committee members are aware, the Department, in its annual statement of priorities 2023, has committed to publishing and commencing delivery of the STEM education implementation plan this year. The current plan, 2017-2026, frames its delivery targets under four pillars. Mr. Irwin referenced one of them, and I will speak briefly to each in this statement.

Pillar 1 deals with nurturing learner engagement and participation. The success of our students in co-curricular initiatives such as the BT Young Scientist and Technology Exhibition, Young Social Innovators, Green-Schools Ireland, Take Action for Climate Change and ECO-UNESCO, are all the more remarkable given the lack of investment in infrastructure, support staffing, and time afforded to our schools.

We have been delivering STEM education on a shoestring level of supports and urgently require the provision of laboratory assistants; dedicated time for teachers involved in STEM projects with their students; annualised equipment replacement and software upgrading grants; appropriate laboratory-class space and storage areas; and teacher leadership posts to co-ordinate STEM teaching and activities, including purchasing, and health and safety compliance. In addition, the provision of a fit-for-purpose guidance and counselling service is key to supporting learner engagement and participation, as well as career progression into STEM programmes and employment. Such guidance is particularly needed in support of improving the gender balance in senior cycle science and technology subject uptake, as well as supporting students with additional learning needs in accessing the entire curriculum.

Section 3.2 of the Department’s report STEM Education 2020: Reporting on Practice in Early Learning and Care, Primary and Post-Primary Contexts, forefronts the importance of positive engagement with STEM learning. This requires the early identification of dispositions within young people and tapping into their enthusiasms. Such identification goes beyond the science classroom and requires a school-wide responsiveness to students’ innate capacities and excitement in terms of enrichment activities.

Pillar 2 deals with enhancing teacher and early years practitioner capacity. The welcome emergence of Oide, the professional learning service for teachers, represents an opportunity to develop and deliver a range of continuing professional development, CPD, interventions, which could inform educators about contemporary pedagogies and teaching methods, as well as updating teachers in the ever-changing fields of their STEM-related knowledge areas. Any eventual STEM education policy must be coherent with the current digital learning strategy, as schools are currently overloaded with initiatives in all areas of their practice.

In all cases of CPD provision, recognition must be given to the high levels of professional development of our STEM educators, to capitalise on this resource by adopting a social, shared learning approach, to provide ring-fenced time and continuity of learning domains over years, and to offer Teaching Council-recognised out-of-field programmes which will help with current specialist teacher shortages in these areas. The JMB recognises the current challenges to schools and system in terms of teacher supply. What is needed, nonetheless, is a planned approach to pupil-teacher ratio reduction and to prioritise the supply of qualified STEM educators within this.

Pillar 3 involves the need to support STEM education practice. The reasons underpinning the severe shortage of teachers who are qualified and registered to teach STEM subjects requires investigation because it provides important indicators of the policy-level direction required for us to emerge as a high-capacity education and, ultimately, workforce contributor to the economy. Indicators that should be addressed include: the high cost of qualifying as a secondary school teacher and the risk of exclusion of particular social groups impacting on teaching workforce diversity; the duration of the teacher qualification and recognition processes and the attractiveness to graduates of career pathways other than teaching; the need to remain in constant touch with accelerating STEM-field developments; and the lack of supports in social and ethical education and their pedagogies as they relate to STEM areas of learning and life. The good news is that our educators are not short of motivation. What is needed is a coherent framework under which their innate love of their subject areas, their indisputable agency and innovative capacities and their student-centred approaches to their vocation can offer a perfectly aligned set of conditions in which STEM education can be invigorated as a national priority.

Pillar 4 relates to the use of evidence to support STEM education. Policymakers and curriculum developers are required to be constantly informed by international developments in education practice, prioritisation and policy. At school level, the embedding of an evidence-based paradigm of resource deployment, improvements in teaching, learning and assessment, decision-making about the use of precious school time and engagement with external businesses, communities and further education and training, FET, and other third-level institutions all sit perfectly with the school self-evaluation model. A review by the inspectorate of the tools of secondary school education, SSE, is required to determine their alignment with emerging policy under the digital and STEM education priorities and to support teachers in their use.

As Mr. Irwin spoke about eloquently, we are worried about the differentiation between outcomes in numeracy and literacy in the PISA figures. That is important.

I thank the committee again for its attention to this issue and we look forward to the report and recommendations that will emerge from this important conversation.

Dr. Martin Gormley

On behalf of Education and Training Boards Ireland, ETBI, I welcome the kind invitation to contribute to this meeting. ETBI is the representative body for 16 education and training boards, ETBs, nationally and it promotes their interests. I am director of schools with the Donegal Education and Training Board with responsibility for 15 post-primary schools. I have a particular interest in the STEM area of education as my primary university degree was a bachelor of technology in education and I am a former teacher of technology, engineering, metalwork, design and communications graphics and mathematics at leaving certificate higher level. I have a keen interest in this area.

To provide some context, the opportunities for children and students in ETB schools to engage in STEM education across primary, special and post-primary schools are increasing because of the variety of policies, structures and supports that have been put in place since the publication of the STEM Education Policy Statement 2017-2026. ETBI acknowledges the significant impact of this overarching policy on subsequent policies, frameworks and curriculum specifications, while also recognising the range of reforms and initiatives that informed its development. Examples of policies, frameworks and curriculum specifications helping to embed STEM education in our schools include: the digital learning frameworks for primary and post-primary schools; the Action Plan for Education 2019; Céim: Standards for Initial Teacher Education; the Digital Strategy for Schools to 2027; and both the first and second iterations of the Looking At Our School documents.

On STEM in ETB schools, I will first speak about professional development and partnerships. Increased engagement in STEM education at school level is supported through a variety of professional learning opportunities and support materials for teachers. Of particular note is support available from the STEM team of the professional development support service for teachers, PDST. Resources from the various subject associations or teacher professional networks at post-primary level have also proved to be helpful. Schools note the support they have received through partnerships with other schools as well as businesses and industry, including Intel, Lego, Science Foundation Ireland, local county councils, the technological universities and libraries. Some schools also report partnerships with schools and universities. In many cases, work experience during transition year has been a key part of the STEM experiences of our students.

Regarding approaches and resources for STEM at school level, my colleague, Mr. Curtis, has clearly set out some of the requirements. Schools note the implementation of a variety of STEM approaches and resources, including concrete and active learning approaches, such as design-and-make, maths eyes, inquiry-learning approaches, scientific investigations, forensic science projects, school tours, projects, etc. Schools also note the benefits of facilitating initiatives, competitions and awards to promote interest and engagement in STEM. I recently participated in the VEX Robotics competition that was held in Atlantic Technological University. It involved teams from all the post-primary schools in the region competing in a robotics competition. I witnessed the national competition in which a local primary school from Donegal won the national award and will travel to Dallas to represent Ireland. That would not be possible without the involvement of teachers who establish the culture in schools. At the competition, I witnessed teamwork and the best elements of STEM education. I saw boys and girls working together. We sometimes associate STEM subjects with boys. The girls' engagement with robotics was visible. I also witnessed the integration of Ukrainian students into teams. They had certain expertise from their schools they were able to share with the Irish students. It was moving for me to witness that and to see STEM in action.

ETB schools note some challenges that need to be overcome in order to support the successful development of STEM education. Those challenges include the shortage of qualified STEM teachers. Many of those who graduate from degrees in STEM subjects go into private industry. We often find in schools that if we can get good teachers in to deliver STEM, students will pick those subjects because they often choose subjects on the basis of which teacher is teaching it rather than the subject itself. That is why it is important to have enthusiastic, passionate teachers who are experts in the STEM fields and their delivery.

Schools note a lack of resources and funding from the State to fully implement STEM education across the school curriculum. Some mentioned that they have relied on funding from partnerships with industry and businesses to fully develop these areas. For example, we welcome the school excellence fund which funded digital clusters. A local school in Donegal, Errigal College, was involved with that and linked with local primary schools. It was very successful. It involved a small amount of money, few resources but it was effective.

There is a training and curriculum or policy overload. Irish education is undergoing a period of reform at present. Schools are being challenged by the impact of subsequent curriculum and policy changes. Consideration needs to be given to the sustainable and manageable implementation of the Digital Strategy for Schools to 2027, including curriculum areas such as mathematics, science and technology at junior cycle and revised senior cycle. Another challenge facing the future of STEM education is the need to ensure all students, regardless of their background, have access to high-quality STEM education. That is important. We must not make STEM elitist. We must ensure that all students, regardless of background, have access. This is especially important for delivering equality of opportunity in schools, DEIS, schools. There is evidence to suggest that students from disadvantaged backgrounds are less likely to study STEM subjects and are therefore less likely to pursue STEM careers. This can contribute to the under-representation of certain groups, such as women and people from ethnic minorities, in STEM fields. One way to ensure students have access to high-quality STEM education is to increase the use of technology in classrooms and schools. Digital technologies have the potential to make STEM education more engaging and accessible for all.

Regarding the future of STEM education and opportunities, in the post-primary curriculum, the impending revision of the curriculum at senior cycle is an ideal platform to ensure greater cross-curricular and multidisciplinary approaches are adopted for all subjects. STEM subjects are not the only place for developing the key skills of critical thinking, problem-solving, creativity and innovation. It is a whole-school responsibility. Other subjects in schools, such as well-being, social science, business subjects, arts and modern languages can be related to STEM subjects in various ways and cross-curricular approaches to education can help students see the connections between different subjects and their application.

We also need to look at sustainability and climate change. These really are a priority with regard to the programme for government and what we are doing in schools. Revision of the senior cycle represents an opportunity to address these through the lens of STEM.

Training and support in STEM for school leadership should become part of a professional development model to ensure that all leaders have the relevant knowledge to drive the STEM agenda in schools. If leadership is not coming from the top and from management, it may not happen in a school. Oide, the new body that will encompass the professional development service for teachers, junior cycle for teachers, the centre for school leadership and the national induction programme for teachers, will also provide an opportunity. The coincidence of this integration, alongside the redevelopment and implementation of a new curriculum, a junior cycle programme and a revised senior cycle, provides a significant opportunity to harness the strength and experience of these existing services to embed and fully realise STEM.

Engineering as a junior cycle subject includes a module on mechatronics. This is very powerful because it brings together mechanisms, electronics and computation. The junior cycle includes a project on a marble return machine. This involves all of these skills and knowledge that the students must pick up on and put into practice in their projects.

The digital strategy for schools 2027 and the upcoming development of the implementation plan represents another opportunity for the future of STEM. The effectiveness-----

I ask Dr. Gormley to conclude because I want to give members an opportunity to come in.

Dr. Martin Gormley

The links between primary and post-primary schools are very important. The ETB has responsibility for the community national schools and it needs to start there. Another important area is FET, for which ETBs have responsibility. We are exploring the option of working with the third level sector on degrees whereby the first part of a degree could be achieved through the local education and training board after which people would finish them off at a technological university.

Overall, schools efforts in the context of embedding the objectives and high-level outcomes outlined in the STEM education policy are well under way. The shared responsibility approach in this policy has facilitated increased awareness, participation and learning in STEM education at primary and post-primary level. We look forward to upcoming curriculum redevelopments. It is an opportunity that we must not miss.

I thank the witnesses for their statements. I like the model being described with regard to Errigal College in Donegal and the feeder national schools. There is something in this that needs to be put in the mainstream. I very much think it is the way forward, particularly for physics. At that stage in the formation of young people's minds we can get them interested in problem-solving, what can be done and the possibilities. It is about getting children excited and passionate about these subjects. I would like to see more of this.

How many students studying higher level mathematics are having grinds? I am very concerned about the commodifying of education. It is probably linked to the issues we have with recruiting teachers and having teachers who are fully qualified. Many students find they must have grinds and private tuition on top of what is supposed to be a free education system. Inequity develops as a result of this. If people have the money to have grinds they compete with others who do not. If we do not have a standard of education in schools it will lead to all kinds of inequity. This needs to be pulled back. Are the witnesses aware of how prevalent is the practice of having teachers of STEM subjects, particularly maths, who are not qualified or partially qualified? I ask them to speak on quantifying this and the data available to us on it.

With regard to recruitment, the pathway into post-primary teaching requires a level 8 degree to meet the Teaching Council requirements. Teachers must have one post-primary curriculum subject. In most cases this degree is qualified by a two-year professional masters of education. Very few financial supports are available. Even if people qualify for Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, grants at masters level, that support does not usually cover the full cost of fees. Put simply, it is not an option for many. For others, the idea of starting a working career with a level 8 degree is more appealing than paying high fees for another two years. I would like to hear the opinions of the witnesses on this.

There is also geographical inequity. Where is the concentration of teachers? How many schools do not offer physics as a subject? Most schools offer higher maths. Are the teachers in the schools fully qualified in maths? How much data do we have available to us to be able to address these issues?

Mr. John Curtis

The question on data is very interesting. We need to get more concrete data in some of these areas. We do not have figures on grinds for maths but the Deputy is right that there is a propensity for grinds in certain subject areas. Maths and some of the STEM areas might be in there.

With regard to teaching qualifications and teacher supply, geographical inequities are beginning to emerge on this and we need to be conscious of them. We are really struggling in Dublin. I have a number of schools, and I am sure Mr. Irwin is the same, that have had to take some STEM subjects off the timetables this year because teachers are not available. We have concrete examples of this. This is the big concern we have as practitioners on the ground.

We absolutely accept that the STEM initiative is great. We need to do more work on it. Underpinning this is the fact that as we listen, and even as we speak about it ourselves, we are thinking about teacher supply and the difficulties we face. Some changes have taken place in recent years that will help us. We are moving more and more towards four-year concurrent degrees whereby people do their teacher training within a four-year programme. This is shorter than a six-year cycle, and there are also financial implications. We have seen changes in this area in recent years. The Department has developed certain programmes whereby teachers can upskill in particular areas, of which physics is one. We are looking at some issues. There are no easy answers.

There is a fundamental issue that has been bothering me. We are coming out of Covid and our schools faced challenges in that time. We are seeing anxiety levels among students becoming increasingly more pronounced than they were five years ago. If we are bringing in STEM subjects and changing the culture of a school we will really need the help of mediators on the ground, such as guidance counsellors, to be able to speak to students, guide them and lead them. Unless we have room, time and resources for this type of intervention some programmes, such as the STEM initiative, may fail. We do not like to come in here to speak about resources all the time but because of the levels of what I will not cause depression but more ongoing anxiety among students, and because of the challenges we face in implementing some of these programmes, I ask the committee to look at guidance provision and help us with it. That would make all our lives an awful lot easier.

Dr. Martin Gormley

With regard to primary schools linking with local post-primary schools, this was done through the school excellence fund. It was a real opportunity to create a digital cluster. The post-primary school led and brought in the primary schools to participate and avail of the facilities and knowledge expertise. Deputy Conway-Walsh is quite right that it was a success and it provides a possibility for other places.

The Deputy mentioned the qualifications of maths teachers. The University of Limerick has a qualification in project maths for out-of-field teachers. This has significantly reduced the number of teachers in the classroom who are not qualified in maths. Perhaps a similar model for other STEM subjects might be worth considering. We have had a problem with junior cycle coding and computer science at leaving certificate level but we have been working with Atlantic Technological University on upskilling teachers to be able to deliver on it. A similar model to that for maths replicated for other subjects would be both useful and helpful.

Mr. John Irwin

I concur with my colleague, Mr. Curtis, about the concurrent degrees. There are more coming on line, which will be of assistance. The consequence of a two-year professional masters of education, PME, and its cost, is that we end up with a homogenous teaching profession that is white, Irish and middle class. Other people cannot afford to complete it. That is, in many ways, an unintended consequence. SUSI grants are provided but as the Deputy pointed out, they hardly covers the fees. We have argued for that to be reviewed and for alternative models to be considered. St. Angela's College, for example, is doing a masters programme that runs from June to August of the following year so it does not take a full two years to complete. We have to innovate and we have asked the Department to do so. However, the other argument is that the PME is now a masters programme and we have to ensure the quality of the people who are entering the profession. It is a very long cycle for somebody with a primary level 8 degree to progress to a masters. That is a problem. We have also suggested that the second year could be more of a placement in schools and that we would treat it, in some respects, as an internship to provide experience. The masters candidates could be paid during that placement. There is work for them, without any doubt.

Geographical inequality is interesting. We met 100 students and some of their teachers last Monday and Friday to discuss the major issues in education and what they feel are the problems. Geographical inequity was raised by the students. It was interesting. The first group included a speaker from the very north of Donegal who spoke about the difficulty in attracting people to more remote locations and how difficult it is. The students from Dublin responded quickly to say that they have no technology teacher. They said they would take one if one could be found. They rely on a teacher to come from Mayo on a Saturday to work with technology students in sixth year. That is an extreme example.

We have surveyed all our schools about teacher supply. We have provided all of that information to the Department. It is aware of the problem. Some 2% of vacancies in teaching professions at post-primary level in the country have not been filled. Our findings are similar to that but, as Mr. Curtis has said, the issue is more pronounced in the capital. By the same token, if a job is advertised in the west of Ireland, half the members of the teaching profession in the capital apply for it to allow them to go home. The cost of living is a significant issue in the capital at the moment. It is expensive to live in Dublin.

The Errigal College project is interesting. I would love to do that. It is similar to other initiatives. I will again mention Midlands Science, a philanthropy group. It is one of many that are involved and should be supported. It is interested in the area of mathematics and encourages clusters of post-primary schools and primary schools in localities to work together to promote and develop projects that would work. Much of that work is beneficial. However, I will echo what Mr. Curtis said. We need significant investment in education in schools themselves.

I thank our guests for their opening statements. Mr. Irwin mentioned baseline data in his opening statement. It seems as if we do not even have the baseline data at this point. I know he has done data analysis from surveys as to how many people are not taking up positions, and that analysis is welcome. Are we not where we need to be in order for the implementation plan to take its course? We cannot make data where there are no data available and we still need to get on with an implementation plan. What steps are needed to get those data?

I share many of the concerns and much of the enthusiasm that have been expressed. It is great to hear from three witnesses who have enthusiasm for STEM and teaching. It is clear that we are not on a par with our international colleagues when it comes to STEM. There are real inequalities with regard to who is getting access to STEM. It is not just about STEM teachers. It is also about access to other things, such as guidance counsellors, which we spoke about previously. We do not have enough STEM teachers or guidance counsellors to bring everybody together so students can see the real opportunities that will be available after they leave school.

Mr. John Irwin

There are some very good data for 2019. The Department published a document with good baseline data but, unfortunately, it arrived just before the pandemic. For the first part of the implementation plan from 2017 to 2020, the Department conducted a data-gathering exercise and brought together an awful lot of data. We are looking at the next phase of the implementation, which has been delayed, in essence, by three years because we have been in emergency response for two of those years. However, I must say the Department did bring together some very good baseline data.

It absolutely did. However, when it comes to leaving certificate reform, which we have looked at, data have not been brought in over recent years. That has changed things a lot. It has changed things for leaving certificate reform and we can see that knock-back today. Things have changed fundamentally and we do not have the kind of data we need in order to see how we can put it all together.

Mr. John Irwin

I fully accept that the data need to be updated. However, the Department has established a baseline. It is about trying to work off that baseline to do comparative analyses. The data are not there to do that. The current crop of students are going through unique times in Irish education. The support they need at the moment is to fill gaps in many respects. People will remember that with calculated grades and accredited grades, there was a focus on ensuring that our leaving certificate students, coming out of post-primary school, would have the opportunity to transition to further education. However, some students who were in first or second year in school had terrible experiences. Some of those lower secondary students had terrible experiences. That has consequences and we will see them in the coming years. We are going to have to work continually for those students to try to ensure we can improve their experiences.

The data do not indicate we are significantly behind other countries in respect of STEM subjects. The data show we compare very well. The very top cohort is where we are not performing to the same level as we are performing with the other cohorts of students. We will invest €2.6 billion this year on the provision of special educational needs. There is a presumption in education that while we support students with additional education needs, the brighter students will be looked after anyway. That is not correct.

Under the legislation, those students also have special needs. However, that gets dropped in schools and that is important.

Mr. John Irwin

The practice is that the students with additional educational needs are very well catered for but the very top cohort is not. It is not done to the same extent. Those are my initial thoughts on some of the questions that were asked.

Mr. John Curtis

The supply issue is interesting. We all do surveys around where the shortages are and we give the information to the Department for it to look through. Many of our teachers teach out-of-field subjects. That is one of the issues to which Deputy Conway-Walsh referred. A mathematics class might be taught by a teacher who is not qualified in the area. That can percolate across the system and sometimes makes it difficult to have definitive figures as to what is going on. We are doing more work in that regard, as is the Department. As we move into senior cycle reform, the more empirical data we have to help us in that field, the better. There is work going on in that sphere.

In my opening statement, I mentioned the number of resources available. STEM subjects are resource heavy. I am thinking of laboratories, science rooms, equipment and things like that. We have never looked at how to manage that properly. In some of these classes, we are dealing with a lower pupil-teacher ratio, PTR. Schools need extra resources to have some of these subjects in place. Systemically, we need to look at that to see how we can offer support in this area. The work we are doing on senior cycle reform will allow us to get more insight into what we want to do, going forward. Much of it comes back to helping us at school level. We know that principals and guidance counsellors would love to spend time, if they had it to spare, looking at the implications of some of this research. Many schools are putting some work into improving STEM education.

The school self-evaluation, SSE, model will allow schools to do that. We probably need to do a little bit of work around that to prompt schools to look at this area more but at the moment there is still that little bit of emergency mode in schools around catching up and getting out of where we are. A recalibration is starting to take place where we are starting to look to the future. It is a good time to come back and look at STEM and see what we can do. We always make this plea when we are in here talking to the politicians. It goes back to the percentage of the national pie that we get in education financially. Mr. Irwin, Dr. Gormley and I will have different views as to how that money would be spent, as would the Department officials and the Minister and her officials, but if we got a bigger proportion of the pie the likes of ourselves, with the officials and the Minister's people, could be trusted to work out how best to spend it. There is that deficit there. The point I would always make is that we have one of the most highly respected education systems in the world but the OECD figures consistently tell us we are underinvesting. Why is that?

I thank the witnesses for their comprehensive briefing. It has raised many questions around pushing forward and promoting STEM subjects. Dr. Gormley mentioned the VEX Robotics competition. I concur with that. It was very much promoted in my constituency in County Offaly. Offaly County Council had a huge role in it I commend the staff and Mr. Ray Bell. It was a huge success. Some 1,500 students participated in 60 schools last year alone. That is phenomenal. There is no doubt but that is positive. Do we have any data or evaluation report showing this positivity and progress in the area of STEM? Do we have anything that shows that competitions like VEX Robotics are paying off and that there are benefits in terms of more students, and female students in particular, taking up STEM subjects in ETB schools? This robotics competition is focused on the senior end of primary school. I would expect more of a shift towards the STEM subjects when these students go to second level but that is only an assumption. Do we have any data or an evaluation report? I would like to see the robotics competition pushed out further and extended to the junior end of primary school because it is such a success. It would be a pity not to push it out and promote it even more.

Dr. Martin Gormley

To give some ad hoc figures, in Donegal ETB we have 15 post-primary schools. Five of them now are studying computer science at leaving certificate level. That does not just happen. There has to be a culture and something has to happen down in the lower years, in the junior cycle, with regard to coding and digital technology. It has to happen with subjects like engineering, wood technology and applied technology. The students who are studying these subjects are feeding the senior cycle. You have to have it at the junior cycle in order to feed the senior cycle. Those are just some figures. There are 15 post-primary schools and five of them are now offering computer science at leaving certificate level. It is obviously having an effect there. The schools competing in the VEX Robotics competition the Deputy referred to there are the schools that are running the computer science classes. They have links with the local Atlantic Technological University, which provides the continuing professional development, CPD, for the teachers to deliver it at senior cycle. There is a very strong link there. This is an example of something that is happening in this area. There are also progression routes in the further education and training space for STEM subjects with post-leaving certificate courses and traineeships. We are looking at the minute at providing the first year of the laboratory technician course, nursing studies and engineering within the ETB and then progressing to university. It is another way of getting people involved in STEM who might not necessarily have the points initially. It is just another initiative to try to increase participation at that level.

Mr. Curtis mentioned career guidance teachers, who play a great and very important role in our schools. How can they be supported to promote STEM subjects even more than they are currently doing? I know they are doing that but more needs to be done in terms of the supports that are needed.

Mr. John Curtis

I think we can get the supports in place. Sometimes it is just about putting the emphasis on something. We need to put the emphasis on STEM nationally, through Oide or CPD, and get the guidance counsellors to engage more in that space for us. They are key and crucial. I am not that worried about getting the information to them or prompting them to get into the sphere. There is good documentation there and good research.

The STEM education report of 2020 shows that things are changing at school level, that more and more girls especially are taking up the STEM subjects. As I said, we need to recalibrate at a school level. This is a prompt for us to talk to our schools and the Department about getting a new impetus for this. An awful lot of it is about time. People have aptitudes at school level. When someone is at school at 12 or 13 years of age, who spots their aptitude? Who can say to them that they might be good in a certain sphere? They need somebody like a guidance counsellor, someone with a little bit of time who is not too tied up in teaching. We have an endemic problem in second level education at the moment and there is no easy answer to it. We cannot decrease the pupil-teacher ratio because we do not have the teachers to fill the gaps but over time we need to come up with a systemic approach whereby we need to change the pupil-teacher ratio. We have done some work on it in primary schools. If we do that in a planned manner, it will help in a number of spheres. It will help with the STEM subjects and it will allow us to have a few more guidance teachers in the schools. It is about the time, or even principals. It is about the resources in school that allow the leaders in schools and the guidance counsellors to talk to the children about their strengths and weaknesses, about the possibilities and the new possibilities that are emerging in areas such as STEM.

I fully agree with that. There should be more resources and more career guidance teachers. There are not enough of them. Every child has his or her strengths. In order to reach those students, the only thing to do is to increase resources. I fully agree with Mr. Curtis. I am very supportive of that because it is something I have called for in the past.

Mr. John Curtis

I thank the Deputy. It is something I am acutely aware of now after coming through Covid because I am seeing it at school level. There is an anxiety there. The more we can support the students at this time and the more time we can allocate to them to help them, the better. First, it is to help them after coming through Covid and second to help them to recalibrate, refresh and reframe.

Absolutely. Finally, I just wanted to ask Mr. Irwin about what approaches he thinks should be used in the area of problem-solving. I was a teacher for 12 years and I could honestly say this was always an area that many students had difficulty with, even students who were quite positive towards maths. We had strategies in the teacher training colleges such as reading the problem three times and underlining keywords and all the rest of it but it is still an issue with many children.

Mr. John Irwin

I am a qualified maths teacher. That is where I started in education. I would have to admit that I was a little sceptical when project maths came in first but once we became far more engaged with it, the approach in project maths of looking at a problem in a collaborative format with the students in the class and having more teamwork, rather than looking at it as an individual pursuit, is far more beneficial. The emphasis in project maths is far more towards understanding and not just content. When I did higher level maths as a student, I learned an awful lot of tricks for how to do different things. I could integrate and differentiate but I might not have known why I was doing it. Now, the emphasis is more on understanding why and the why is asked a hell of a lot more. Focus on the curriculum is the first thing that had to change and it has changed. That is only for the good. Methodologies are being promoted through the junior cycle for teachers, JCT, programme and through the project maths teams, who really provided a high standard of training at the time of the introduction. That should be ongoing for all teachers the moment. People must embrace that fully, take that on board and try to divert from the idea that maths is about the brilliant maths teacher who knew all and presented to the class and they just listened and were basically passive. They should be active participants who are engaged in teamwork and working together to try to self-direct their learning to a degree where they are the ones who are actually teasing out the problems and trying to get the solutions, rather than it just being a presentation all the time.

The emphasis has changed, and I believe we will see improvements in that area.

Dr. Martin Gormley

Mr. Irwin is right in terms of understanding, but the process within the classroom takes longer. We hear from teachers that the course is too long, particularly at higher level. If you are involved with group work and trying to get an in-depth understanding of some of the concepts Mr. Irwin mentioned around integration, differentiation and rates of change, you need to take time with students. Teachers report that they are finding it difficult to cover the course because of the amount of content.

I thank the witnesses for attending and for their opening statements, which were very informative. Mr. Irwin mentioned, in response to Senator O'Reilly, that we are not doing very well with the top cohort of students. There is probably little sympathy for or understanding of the plight of that top cohort. They probably do not get much recognition from either the public or politicians. I would have thought there is a downside. There is a public interest in ensuring that those in the top cohort excel. What is the downside for the country if there is a top cohort whose members are not excelling as well as their counterparts in other countries?

Mr. John Irwin

We have to accept that the top cohort is excelling in literacy. The literacy strategy introduced has been extremely successful. The numeracy strategy has not had quite the same results. There has been improvement. In dealing with the top cohort, however, we must move away from the idea that, by supporting students with additional needs at the lower end of ability, it automatically means you are supporting the people at the top. We must be able to ensure, through differentiated practices in classrooms, that we are stretching the best students' abilities. We exposed teachers to the works of John Mighton, the professor of maths in Toronto, who was mentioned earlier. He came over and stated that the key element is that there is a core amount of information which you want to ensure every single student in the class can hit, but you must be able to ensure that the students at the lower end of the ability level have something they can grasp. You must also stretch the abilities of the ones at the top. He dealt with the core basic element. With first years at that time, he chose a bit of Boolean algebra, which is coding and which is quite challenging. They all had a basic understanding at the end. He gave incentives whereby even the student with the least ability had the opportunity to get onto a bonus sheet by the end and to be told they excelled. In such circumstances, everybody could experience success. There was far more stretching of abilities. You could go to five or six different levels in one class. It is about recognition of the differentiation of abilities across the class and making sure that the top is being challenged.

Dr. Gormley referred to the need for technology in the classroom. In my constituency, in which both Leinster House and a big tech sector in the south-east inner city are located, Google is very good at providing technology and software to local schools and supporting them with materials and computers. Is there anything more that can be done nationally to try to encourage the tech sector to provide supports in schools?

Dr. Martin Gormley

Schools have reported that there is never enough technology in the classroom. That is what we hear. One hears things about Chromebook trolleys, iPad trolleys and sharing resources. If we can tap into partnerships that are there that would be good. The school I mentioned earlier, Errigal College, has tapped into Optum, a local health provider, in the context of software. Optum has helped out in partnership in order to equip a lab. That is something the school went out and did. Another example is the Abbey Vocational School, which also tapped into a local company to equip a computer science lab fully. There are opportunities but if there was something more strategic at a national level, rather than schools having to go out begging, it would be better.

I presume it would be more difficult for schools in rural locations to try to develop partnerships with technological companies than would be the case with schools in the inner city?

Dr. Martin Gormley

The schools I referred to linked with Letterkenny, a major town that attracts larger companies. It would be nearly impossible for a local school in a rural area to do that. There is so much work principals, schools and school leadership have to do. A school should not have to go out begging and borrowing to try to get resources by means of a private partnership approach. There is an onus on the Department of Education to ensure that schools are fully funded to provide the curriculum.

We have been told that, historically, there has been a big gap between girls and boys when it comes to STEM subjects. Is that improving? Is Mr. Curtis still concerned about the gap?

Mr. John Curtis

It is improving. Two things are going on. If one looks at reporting on STEM, one can see that in the last number of years that it has improved and more girls are taking science subjects at junior and senior cycle level, so it has improved. There is a lot of talk about co-ed and single-sex schools, but an organic change is happening anyway. We have boys' schools, girls' schools and co-ed schools. Of the three, we have more co-ed schools than single-sex schools. A change is taking place that will also impact subject choices going forward. Schools have all sorts of contexts schools when looking at timetables and what the aptitudes of their pupils may be. It is changing, which we can see. This will impel us all to do a bit more. We all support the aspiration of STEM. I ask for patience in some respects. Ultimately, we will not be able to have a magic-wand solution whereby all schools will get to a certain place at a particular point. I was talking to the principal of a mid-sized school in Dublin yesterday. She told me she will be down 11.5 teachers next September, five of whom want to relocate to the country. We must be patient and deal with the realities. The aspirations are fantastic and we will work towards them, but at a local level, we must also be aware of context and what is going on. Change is occurring, and it is for the better.

Is there any data on the percentage of girls in co-ed schools doing STEM subjects as opposed to the number in all-girl schools who are doing them?

Mr. John Curtis

I do not have the data. Deputy Conway-Walsh also made a point in that regard. There is probably more work we can do around data, which is one aspect of the pillars. We need to do more work on it. Mr. Irwin may wish to comment.

Mr. John Irwin

Baseline data deals with males and females, but it does not go into the interesting question the Deputy posed regarding the difference between co-ed and single-sex schools. It does not go into that detail. I would also reference school size, which can, to a degree, have an impact in the context of the range of options that can be offered in schools. We look at co-operation across schools. In rural areas, local schools, if there is more than one, will often co-operate and share subject areas. When we examine trying to drive the top end, we must be able to give them access to the programme. For example, an area that seems to have nearly fallen off the charts at the moment is applied maths, which is a real shame.

It is terrible, because it is wonderful for people interested in STEM subjects.

Mr. John Curtis

There is practical application around applied maths. A number of our schools that tried to bring it in as a mainstream subject but pupils have a perception of applied maths as the extra subject.

It is a subject the top cohort would excel at.

Mr. John Curtis

You are trying to break perceptions as well. A change is taking place, but we could do more work on it.

The school outside the gate was mentioned, which is important, but a huge amount of people miss that point. Take for example the importance of transition year and students having the experience in the wider world in their engagement with employers and getting experience to see what they want to do with their lives later on and what subjects or job opportunities they want to take up.

Are there any additional things the Department of Education Doing should be doing to enhance that?

Mr. John Irwin

The projects we were involved with at local level in the midlands would be similar to those offered by Errigal College in Donegal. We had the opportunity to engage with groups such as Midland Science, which taps into the local community. Ericsson approached our school because it could not recruit enough graduates. It came to the schools and to Midland Science to ask how it could work with the schools. Midland Science, formerly Atlantic Corridor, acted as a go-between between the company and the school to help co-ordinate all of that. Having access to those types of groups, which have a particular focus on STEM, is highly beneficial. It created the links between Ericsson, the schools and what was then Athlone IT, which developed bespoke programmes that students could transfer into and then move on to bespoke master's programmes. It was dealing with local demands and local needs. As I pointed out, it was very beneficial that we could call on people outside to support what was happening inside the school. Companies and third level institutions opened their doors and were only dying to get involved. I take Mr. Curtis's point very strongly that we need to resource in the schools, but then the schools need to be open to what is outside and particularly to what is relevant in theirs.

There is one other bugbear of mine, which is-----

What about the importance of the transition year?

Mr. John Irwin

Transition year is significant once it is well structured. It depends on the school going out and linking with the local community. Many of the links we had were not only in transition year but right across the school and right down into the primary schools. Transition year is highly beneficial as an experimental year for students to be able to reach out and not have the pressure of continually thinking about assessment but be able to explore, look at things that interest them and get involved in more project work. I cannot not speak highly enough about it. They need to get out there in the local community working.

However, it needs to be well structured.

Mr. John Irwin

It must be.

Transition year would have been seen as a wasteful year in previous times.

Mr. John Irwin

Correct.

However, it is a great opportunity for students if it is well structured and resourced by schools and the Department of Education. I believe it is a fantastic year to allow people to get into their heads around what they want to do.

Mr. John Irwin

It is predominantly resourced by the schools. It is very dependent on their local community supporting that.

I believe Mr. Irwin wanted to add something to that.

Mr. John Irwin

I worked in Ferbane in the middle of the Bog of Allen. I am very proud to have worked there. One of the most prized things for any of our students was an apprenticeship with the ESB. Apprenticeships are greatly undervalued in this State. When we look at how the media portray achievement, it is all about going to universities. They totally undervalue different styles of learning. The apprenticeship is such a valuable manner of learning. I am delighted that ETBs are becoming more engaged in the further education area and trying to rebuild what was basically torn down 20 years ago when people stepped away from vocational education. It was one of the great regrets in education that people stepped away from vocational education and stepped away from the value of the apprenticeship. Apprenticeships were just completely undervalued as a style of learning and what they promoted. I know some of my colleagues in the media will probably disagree with me on this, but some of that was media driven because what we highlighted as being important was the university or the IT and apprenticeships were very much second class.

I pretty much agree. I have used the term that apprenticeships are no longer sexy. People feel that they have to go to university. The Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, has done an enormous amount on the technological universities. Another piece is required, which is the investment into the apprenticeship side of the technological universities. We have visited the institutions in Limerick and Cork, and we are due to visit Waterford. The strong message that comes is that Government investment that is needed into the apprenticeship side of those facilities. Many of them were built in the 1970s and have not been updated. This committee has pressed the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science on the matter and will continue to do so on behalf of the technological universities.

We have done that piece on the technological universities, but there is another part of the jigsaw, which is investment into apprenticeships. Unless the Government invests in apprenticeship schemes, we will not make apprenticeships attractive for students. Apprentices are now coming out earning much more money. In some cases, people have done two or three years in third level education at a university or whatever - no disrespect to them. There are great opportunities for young people but we need to improve the way apprenticeships are sold and packaged to them.

Mr. John Irwin

Absolutely. I commend the Minister on looking at the further education colleges of the future. It is a really good plan. So much of it is also involved with STEM. When we look at the opportunities that exist in sustainability, as Dr. Gormley mentioned earlier, the efforts to try to restore the value in that area are to be commended.

We spoke about the cost of living and teachers wanting to move to the country. Are we losing good-quality teachers because of the cost-of-living crisis in Dublin and the bigger cities who want to relocate to places like Wexford, Donegal, Offaly or Laois where it may be cheaper.

Mr. John Irwin

We are experiencing it across all our schools. People are applying for jobs down the country and looking to relocate simply because it is much cheaper.

Is it becoming a crisis in some Dublin schools?

Mr. John Curtis

It certainly is. Mr. Curtis and I have spoken to people in the Department. Some of our schools are really struggling. The schools will make do. Schools are marvellous places and they come up with innovative and creative solutions to try to ensure that the students are not being disadvantaged. In some cases, subjects have had to be dropped and teachers are required to teach beyond their own field and outside their comfort zones. We would acknowledge collectively that the Department is endeavouring to solve some of these issues. Earlier, we spoke about the four-year programmes, the concurrent degrees that are coming in. Small advancements are taking place that should help us in time.

Young teachers now tend to want to go abroad. There is the experiential aspect of that, especially post the Covid pandemic; people want to see the world after having been cooped up for so long. Then there is the financial issue whereby they want to go, get a few bob, come home and buy a house. It is difficult for us. There are no easy answers unless we were to introduce something like a Dublin rating, which obviously has implications across the public service and is a big issue. Certainly, things are difficult. I must commend the people in schools who are dealing with these crises because they come up with all sorts of innovative solutions, many of which entail principals and deputy principals going back into the classroom to take up the slack. There are problems but funnily enough those difficulties may not be visible to some extent because schools are such great places and the personnel in schools are so innovative in trying to deal with these things.

A number of months ago, I met a group who spoke to me, as Chair of Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, about the shortage of physics teachers and the crisis that is rapidly coming down the tracks. There is a lack of young people who see that as an attractive career and I am not sure why maybe. Mr. Curtis might be able to educate me on that. Is it down to the way it is being taught? Does the curriculum need to be changed, reviewed or overhauled?

Mr. John Curtis

One of the issues is with people moving in to private industry. Home economics teachers are also doing so. It has been more lucrative for them. That is what is happening. What is frustrating is that if one looks at the figures for the number of teachers who are out there, according to the Teaching Council register, technically, we should have enough teachers in all of these fields, but they have moved in to industry for various reasons and many of them have gone abroad. We are looking at trying to improve things and at more innovative solutions. Physics has been targeted, in particular, in some of the special courses the Department is putting on for people to upskill in order to teach physics. It is not that people are unaware of the difficulties. It is that it is very difficult to come up with solutions. That is where we are.

Dr. Martin Gormley

Offering a subject on the curriculum also depends on the school's size. It is very difficult to offer a subject such as physics in a smaller school and, therefore, students are not studying it.

The starting point for any apprenticeship is that one has to get an employer to take the person on and that is a real difficulty sometimes. There needs to be an alleviation for the employer to take on the young apprentice, because it is a problem. Funding is also needed for upskilling or upgrading the facilities within the education and training board, ETB, which does certain phases, and the technological university, which does other phases. However, the starting point is with the employer and something has to be looked at in this regard. The curriculum in many of the apprenticeships has to be updated. There are so many electric cars on the road now that the motor mechanic apprenticeship has to be updated. It is the same for electricity and plumbing with regard to air to water, heat recovery and all of those different systems. A real job has to be done to upgrade the various curricula.

I will ask the representatives about their experience of how we promote apprenticeships. Do students see an apprenticeship as difficult, hard work? Do they wish to work in offices and have a 9 to 5? The student has totally changed from my time or the representatives' time. We have a more softened society now, with our younger generation. When I was younger, as I presume was the case for many people here, one had to get out at 16 years of age. We do not see that now. I do not wish to use some of the phrases one hears about students today, but why are we not seeing more students go into apprenticeships?

Dr. Martin Gormley

One of the places we need to start is with the mothers of Ireland. The value placed on a career such as that needs to be part of the home, because people often measure success now in terms of CAO points and university. That is the big issue. One of the things the career guidance people are doing, within the further education space, is working with the career guidance people in the post-primary space to try to make them fully aware of its advantages and the real career paths. However, it then needs the local school and further education service to educate the mothers of Ireland in particular, because, in many cases they are helping to guide the children within their homes as to where they are going, etc. That is not to say anything against the fathers but, in many rural communities-----

Dr. Gormley is right.

Dr. Martin Gormley

-----that is the experience we have.

The mothers of Ireland get children up for school and get them ready and out the door. They get that from their mothers.

Dr. Martin Gormley

We need to help to educate mothers on the advantages of and career opportunities from apprenticeships, because they are getting from the media that it is all about CAO points, leaving certificate results and how people are doing. They measure achievement as somebody progressing to third level, rather than the apprenticeship route. It is a real mistake, because there is a terrible lack of apprenticeships out there. We have a housing programme and in Donegal, we have a mica crisis. We need apprentices and skilled people in that field to deliver.

Mr. John Curtis

The apprenticeship situation is changing. Things have improved in the past couple of years. Considerable work is going on through further education and training, FET, and the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. We even have people doing work at local level in our schools. It is changing, but it can be slow. As Dr. Gormley was speaking, I was thinking the exact same thing. It has to do with cultural perceptions. Sometimes they can be slow to break down, but it has genuinely improved in the past five years.

What we heard from colleges is that these facilities were built back in the 1970s and 1980s for the population of that time, rather than the population now and the number of apprenticeships we need to go through the colleges. These colleges say they have to do an awful lot more online, to be able to facilitate the students in their workshops and the practical work. One of their biggest challenges is the space, accommodation and the working areas. That is what we get back as a committee. Was Deputy Conway-Walsh with us in one of the colleges in Waterford or Cork?

No, but I have been to some of the colleges, such as the Atlantic Technological University, ATU, with which I am very familiar and the ETBs.

It is a big issue.

Mr. John Irwin

When one is in an area where there is a culture that a value is placed on an apprenticeship, such as with ESB's history in the midlands, people value it. Going into the ESB was the prize of choice among many of the best and brightest in the community. They saw the opportunity to do a brilliant apprenticeship that would guarantee them a passport to work anywhere in the world.

That is especially so with a State company.

I am glad apprenticeships were brought up, but I could not accept the mothers of Ireland are to blame for the issue. There is a combination of things. Obviously, it speaks to what was said earlier on, in that career guidance must be in schools. It is not good enough having one career guidance teacher. As fantastic as the career guidance teacher may be, he or she could be spread over too many pupils. That is what is happening. I hear that about career guidance all the time. When we get to first year at third level, a lack of career guidance is cited as a reason for being in the wrong courses.

There is a backlog in apprenticeships. It takes six years to do a four-year apprenticeship, which is wholly unacceptable. We need to be careful we do not cover up or cover over these things. Capital investment is needed for the workshops and all of that with regard to the craft apprenticeship. I agree that the situation is turning. We need to encourage that. It is very good it is on the CAO side now, but more information than a link is needed. I hope the plans being put in place will come to fruition. I completely agree with Mr. Irwin about the ESB apprenticeships. They are in huge demand in Mayo, as well, around Bellacorick. Why were the local authorities not tasked with having a specific number of apprenticeships? We did not have that. We have all of these public bodies that should have had apprenticeships over the years, but did not. It is not just the mothers of Ireland. We need to share some of the responsibility, but it can certainly be addressed.

Today's session was valuable. We need to measure the amount of private investment that is going in to education from parents, often from families who cannot afford it. Mocks will have been done in the past couple of weeks. If parents see their child will not get the necessary grade in maths in particular, or languages and other subjects, at higher level or not, tuition is bought in. I wish to see that examined further. I am not sure how we will quantify it, but the inequality and inequity that develops really concerns me. We have to stop this.

Mr. John Curtis

It is hard to get data on it, but the Deputy is right. It is exacerbated now, because if some of our schools do not have qualified teachers in front of the children in classrooms, it creates a demand for out-of-school tuition. There is a problem, but it is very hard to get data on it.

I will finish up by thanking the schools. I know of some excellent schools. They should not have to be under the pressure they are under.

Again, they are keeping the extent of the problems covered up in one sense because they are so good at managing crisis and making do but the elastic band can only stretch for so long. If it is not resourced properly with respect to teaching time, IT equipment, the maintenance needed for those and of all that, then we are going to fall further behind. That obviously feeds into people not being able to fulfil their individual potential but also in the wider world in the form of productivity and the other things we need in order to be competitive as a nation.

I thank our guests for what they are doing. We must get away from this pilot programme situation. Dr. Gormley mentioned Errigal College there and the other one in the midlands. They are wonderful. We need to get these mainstreamed. We know exactly how to do it, what needs to be done and what it takes to do it. We must get rid of the blocks and ensure all children right across the island - as everyone knows, I am a big advocate of a 32-county approach to education - have the same opportunities. We must get rid of these blocks and we must get quicker.

In a written submission from the University of Galway, one academic noted there were only 34 qualified computer science teachers in Ireland. I am interested in our guests' views on that. Is there any proposition or proposal for remedying this issue? What is the availability of computer science in most secondary schools?

Mr. John Curtis

Computer studies is coming in now as a subject for senior cycle and we are finding it is certainly proving very popular. It is a good subject for girls and boys. That will be an issue for us, but it is not the only area where we have those pinch points with the numbers. I am aware work is ongoing on setting up the courses at third level. You need to have the resources to set up the course, including the equipment, etc. You cannot just suddenly decide you are going to run a computer studies degree in the University of Galway tomorrow.

Yes. There is a lead-in time.

Mr. John Curtis

Unfortunately, we are in this arena where there is much good work going on but it has not come to fruition yet in the context of output. We are struggling in that space. Unfortunately, there is no easy answer. We will be struggling in the next couple of years, I think, but that is not to say there is not a lot of good work going on to try to look more to the medium and long term on this.

Mr. John Irwin

There is a lot of good work going on all right but many people teaching computer science are teaching out of field, in the sense they will not necessarily have the full qualification, although they will have a huge interest. That might be because they were teaching maths or some of the technological subjects and then took an interest in computer science and brought it in and developed it within the school. Again, it is a bit like the courses that have been run in Limerick for upskilling people in mathematics and so on. It is to upskill people who are currently in the system, as that is often a better mechanism. Now it is on the curriculum we will possibly see undergraduates begin to come through into the educational sphere.

Mr. John Curtis

There are some ironies here as well. I have been speaking about guidance counsellors and teachers for the past couple of hours but even if the Department gave us the resources and allowed us an allocation to have extra guidance we would not be able to get the teachers at the moment. We need to have more upskilling programmes in place for them. Members can again see the dilemma we are in at the moment, to a certain extent. We will navigate our way through it, because as I said the teachers are fantastic and the leadership in our schools is great, but it is a challenging time.

Dr. Martin Gormley

We would not be able to produce computer science teachers without our local technological university, so it is important the post-primary sector links with the local university. The latter is providing continuous professional development and the ETB is funding it for teachers so they can get that training in order to provide lessons in coding, digital technologies and then computer science. Without that link we would not be able to do it, as we just would not have the teachers. That University of Galway data shows they are just not out there. Without the link with the TUs what we have would not be possible, so it has really been a success. What is in it for the TUs? They feel if students are doing computer science at leaving certificate level they are more likely to look at the local technological university to study computer science at degree level. They see it as feeding the third-level space also. That is the motivation for them and our motivation is we get teachers qualified to deliver it to meet the needs of our students.

I thank our guests for coming before the committee. The discussion has been beneficial and productive to our ongoing work.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.55 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 6 March 2023.
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