Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 7 Mar 2023

The Future of STEM in Irish Education: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

Apologies have been received from Deputies Rose Conway-Walsh and Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire. I remind members to ensure their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment, even when on silent mode. Are the minutes of the meeting of 28 February agreed? Agreed.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Paul Crone, director of the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals, NAPD. He is here to discuss the future of science, technology, engineering and maths, STEM, in Irish education. I will invite Mr. Crone to make a brief opening statement, followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member will be given a specific slot. As witnesses are probably aware, the opening statements will be published on the committee's website following the meeting.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be considered or regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the Chair to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with this direction.

I call Mr. Crone to make his opening statement.

Mr. Paul Crone

I thank the committee very much for accommodating me. I missed the other group last week so I really appreciate getting this opportunity.

My name is Paul Crone and I am the director of the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals, NAPD. NAPD is the professional association for post-primary school leaders in Ireland. We provide a united voice for principals and deputy principals on issues of common concern across all three post-primary education sectors. While our written submission makes comments under the five headings, I will primarily focus in my opening statement on the science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, subjects in post-primary schools.

In post-primary schools, there are a suite of STEM subjects offered to all students. At junior cycle, some of them are compulsory such as mathematics and very often science, whereas others are optional, such as materials technology wood or metal, technical graphics and technology. At senior cycle only, only maths is compulsory while physics, chemistry, biology, construction studies, engineering and design communication graphics are optional. Students get to choose the optional subjects they like and the subjects they feel they are good at. As a result, students generally do well in these subjects because they have chosen them. Having said that, we do not, of course, want to undermine the significance of the humanities subjects as we endeavour to deliver a well-rounded and holistic educational experience to all students. STEM and humanities subjects are not mutually exclusive and, I would argue, are indeed complementary. All subjects can encourage and enhance the STEM skills such as problem solving and critical thinking.

The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation, UNESCO, in a paper published in 2019 entitled "Exploring STEM Competencies for the 21st Century" outlines its belief that the core feature of STEM is the use of science, technical and engineering knowledge to solve daily or societal problems. This vision for STEM will make STEM more meaningful and relevant to all students. However, the development of the STEM skills and, indeed, the future of STEM cannot be seen as the sole responsibility of the STEM subject teacher, and the cross-curricular utilisation of the STEM skills are the key to building the culture where a positive attitude is cultivated towards STEM thereby building confidence in all students.

We are in the unfortunate position in Irish education at this time that STEM subjects are not universally available to all students. It is the aspirational intention of the Department of Education in its Statement of Strategy 2021-2023 to ensure equality of opportunity for all students. There are significant challenges around this with regard to STEM. Some schools do not have specialist rooms for some STEM subjects, for example, and this would require significant investment. In addition, there are shortages of specialist teachers trained in some of the STEM subjects. While initiatives are under way to attempt to address these shortfalls in qualified teachers, progress is ongoing and it is also becoming challenging.

The reformed junior cycle prioritises skill development and the STEM skills that I outlined earlier are central to all aspects of the junior cycle. This prioritisation of skill development over knowledge retention is lost once the students enter senior cycle. The continued significance of the terminal exam and the selection procedures for higher education continue to impact on the curriculum at senior cycle. Senior cycle is currently out of line with the junior cycle and the primary curriculum. It is a matter of urgency that we expedite meaningful senior cycle reform to bring coherence to our system and give students the freedom to explore the STEM skills of problem solving, critical thinking and collaborative learning.

In addition, to further break down the barriers to participation in higher education, the development of pathways for every student must be pursued. Removing the cliff edge of the leaving certificate, creating adequate pathways for all and affording students the opportunities to pursue their passion are key. We must give students the opportunity to explore and pursue inquiry-based learning or phenomenon-based learning and give them time to discuss, reflect and grow in confidence and competence.

Finally, in order to deliver on inclusion in our system, we need to put our heads together to remove the barriers to participation for all students. A number of initiatives are currently being undertaken to encourage traditionally under-represented groups to participate in STEM such as Pathways to Technology, PTECH, in Dublin’s north inner-city, which links students from disadvantaged backgrounds to technology qualifications and careers, the Choose Tech programme, which is an initiative of Fastrack into Information Technology, FIT, that encourages young people to work in the technology sector and the STEM Passport for Inclusion initiative that is operated by Maynooth University to encourage girls in DEIS schools to get a STEM qualification.

They are all excellent pilot initiatives and are all very successful. Is it time to look at enhancing these initiatives to broaden their reach and engage more students, and build confidence in marginalised groups in Irish society and to remove the remaining barriers and build real equity and inclusion in our education system?

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank Mr. Crone for coming before the committee this morning. He spoke about the availability of STEM subjects in secondary schools. Is it something policymakers should be concerned about because some schools simply do not have the opportunity to offer particular STEM subjects?

Mr. Paul Crone

They do not have the opportunity to offer particular STEM subjects because traditionally they were not resourced with rooms or with the teaching allocation. Our association is of the opinion that every student should have access to every subject. Unfortunately, that will require investment and teacher allocation and a flexibility and a commitment around providing those subjects and allowing for maybe curricular concession applications from schools to be able to offer the STEM subjects to all students. I do not believe we would be doing our students any service unless we can offer that broad curriculum, so, yes, it is something we need to look at.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Is it just a tradition in certain schools that they do not offer the subjects or is it more practical in that they do not have the facilities but would like to be able to offer those subjects?

Mr. Paul Crone

In general, it would have been tradition in the way the school was resourced. From going around the country and meeting principles, there is a very strong desire to be able to provide those subjects and, therefore, it is a resourcing issue. There would be a commitment from school leaders and teachers that they want to cater for the needs of all their students and if they could, they would. The resourcing issue is central to it.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Last week, one of Mr. Crone's colleagues spoke about how applied maths had fallen off the map. I am looking at other subjects that he referred to in his statement such as engineering and design and communication graphics. Are there sufficient teachers to teach those subjects or is there a need to focus on training more people to be teachers of those subjects?

Mr. Paul Crone

At the moment there are two places where those teachers are trained. One is in Limerick and the other is Letterfrack. There is a particular shortage of all teachers at the moment, especially in those subjects. Because of the location of the training of those teachers, it is a particular issue trying to entice them to come here to the east coast. That is potentially something that needs to be addressed around people who have qualifications in construction or whatever who could retrain or do a professional master's in education to be able to retrain as a teacher. There are shortages of all teachers and at the moment, especially in what I would call the practical subjects, and I would include home economics in that, there are particular issues in attracting them to the east coast.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

The shortage of teachers is not only in maths and physics but is across the board in all subjects.

Mr. Paul Crone

It is at the moment, yes.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

A traditional subject we discuss in the context of STEM is the different percentage of female students compared with male taking STEM. We are concerned, justifiably, that many female students are not doing STEM subjects. Is that changing or is there anything that we as policymakers can do to make it more equal?

Mr. Paul Crone

Looking at the gender breakdown of the 2022 leaving certificate, where STEM subjects such as maths are offered universally the take-up is almost 50:50. It is probably 45:55 where girls are taking it at higher level. If you go to construction, technology or engineering, there is a much lower take-up.

That is something we need to address. More and more girls are choosing STEM subjects and exploring the aptitudes they are discovering they have in these areas. We need to look at providing and offering these subjects universally to all students, rather than potentially making them go down the road to the boys' school just to access them. These subjects should be available in all schools.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

One of the questions I raised in the past week with Mr. Crone’s colleagues was whether a higher percentage of girls were doing STEM subjects in coeducational schools than in single-sex girls’ schools. I do not know the answer. Do we have any data on that?

Mr. Paul Crone

I do not have any data on that apart from anecdotal data but I would surmise that where the subjects are offered universally, the take-up by girls of those technical subjects will be reasonably high.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Sometimes in Ireland, we opt for over-correction. We have had issues where we do not have enough focus and commitment to STEM. Is Mr. Crone concerned in any way that by refocusing significantly on STEM, we are undermining the importance of the humanities? In fairness to Mr. Crone, I believe he said in his statement that these subjects are obviously complementary. Are the humanities also being protected in schools?

Mr. Paul Crone

We need to be very mindful of that. At a recent general assembly with our counterpart principals in Europe, we were introduced to the concept of HECI.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

What is that?

Mr. Paul Crone

It is humanities, ethics, creativity and imagination. These, I suppose, are at the other side of STEM but they are not really. They integrate with each other and we cannot ignore one for the want of the other. People are successful in STEM subjects when they have a good basis in the humanities in that they exercise ethics, are creative and can use their imagination. We have to look at the holistic and well-rounded individual which is very important for our system.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Is Mr. Crone satisfied that the commitment to humanities in secondary schools remains strong, even in those schools that are trying to refocus on STEM.

Mr. Paul Crone

The decision to make history a compulsory subject affirms that. A word of caution going forward is that post-primary schools do not serve the purpose of training people for the workforce or for university. We need to be protective of our post-primary schools, where post-primary education is what the term itself describes. We are still producing well-rounded individuals who will be capable of meeting all of the challenges they encounter. They will receive their workplace training or get their third level qualification at a different place.

I mentioned the cliff edge and pathways that can sometimes hamstring post-primary education. We look at forcing people to specialise too early, when they are still trying to find themselves and their skills and talents. We need to be mindful of that at post-primary level, in particular.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I note what Mr Crone said about junior cycle reform and the need for senior cycle reform. Do I take from what he has said that he believes continuous assessment of STEM subjects is a preferable way of assessing a student?

Mr. Paul Crone

I was a STEM teacher of woodwork and construction studies and that is how we operated. To be fair to the technology subjects in the current leaving certificate, there are projects and practical examinations and there are the written theory exams. In some subjects 50% or 60% of the course, for example, in construction studies, is assessed through continuous assessment. I would be strongly in favour of that.

When looking at the STEM subjects and the practical and skills base, this is what can be done. One needs a certain level of knowledge to be able to manipulate the information and exercise those skills, but it is about the skills. I am not undermining knowledge because that too is needed too but one needs more than knowledge retention. One needs to be able to analyse, synthesise and exercise the skills one has learned.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Mr. Crone refers in his statement to there being an obligation on all of us to remove the barriers to participation for all students. In my constituency, some of the tech companies, of which there are many in the inner city, including Google, play a significant role in providing data, support or facilities to schools in the area.

Does Mr. Crone think there is something that can be worked on by using the successful tech sector in Ireland to support secondary schools?

Mr. Paul Crone

Very much so. In a previous role I was very aware of the role that Google played with a number of schools in that particular area. The P-TECH initiative in Dublin's north inner city is tapping into the tech sector in conjunction with the National University of Ireland and a number of schools to entice and train students in that area. My experience is that there is a willingness in the tech sector to invest in the students because they will be its future workforce. If we can tap into that, we would be pushing an open door.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Does the responsibility lie with individual schools to try to build a link with individual tech companies or should it be done more centrally?

Mr. Paul Crone

At the moment, it is very much left to individual schools. I know in the north-east inner city, P-TECH is the organisation that has brokered the deal and brought the schools in. It manages that and it works really well. However, there needs to be some co-ordination, oversight and support. If it is left to the individual school, it will be piecemeal.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I agree with Mr. Crone. I thank him and I have no further questions.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a couple of questions. Mr. Crone spoke about the lack of availability of specialised rooms and teachers. A number of years ago, it was mostly vocational schools and technical schools that had woodwork and metalwork. Now, most secondary schools do construction studies, woodwork, metalwork and so on. Is the failure to have those specialised rooms and teachers down to investment in schools? In a conversation at this committee last week, witnesses spoke about specialised teachers not being available in Dublin because of the cost of living. They are going down the country or going west or whatever. Mr. Crone spoke about training centres in Limerick and Galway.

Mr. Paul Crone

It is Clare.

An Cathaoirleach

They do not come across to the east coast. I would be interested in Mr. Crone's view on that. Fantastic work was done 20 years ago to get schools to offer woodwork and metalwork. I went to the Christian Brothers School, CBS, in Enniscorthy. I never thought there would be woodwork available there. It is available now. It is only right and proper that those subjects are available for all students.

Mr. Paul Crone

Setting up a woodwork room is a significant investment. A metalwork room is even more expensive because the machinery and tools are very expensive. I know the Department is currently working through a programme of upgrading and retrofitting existing workshops and it is a huge investment. In some schools that have not traditionally had those rooms there are two elements. One is the investment to be able to equip the room, and the second is the space. Very often, they are operating at 95% capacity so they need an additional building to house the subjects. I have been involved in school leadership for quite a while. I remember when I came out as a practical teacher there was a shortage of teachers. After a period of time there was an oversupply, then there was a shortage again, and then there was an oversupply. We know that is how it will happen.

Quite a few teachers are being turned out but what happens is that, in the boom, some of those teachers will go into the construction industry or private industry with the attraction of greater salaries or whatever the case may be. However, we need to put our heads together to look at how we can potentially train teachers on the east coast because we do not have teachers from the east coast who are travelling to Limerick and Letterfrack to train. The natural tendency is to go home or to be near home. They might come to Dublin for a couple of years and then go back to the country. That is human nature and we accept that. However, we potentially need to look at a programme where, in coming years, we can offer these practical subjects in all schools that traditionally would not have had them. Potentially, I am talking about all-girls schools.

I was a principal in a co-educational school and there was quite a high uptake of STEM subjects among the girls. They really enjoyed the subjects and were really good at them so to exclude them is not the right way. I get the point that has been made that improvements are not something that can be done with a magic wand. It will take time and investment. STEM needs to be part of our vision for 2030 or 2040. We must put a plan and procedures in place to make sure that STEM subjects are offered in every school and that we can supply the teachers for them.

An Cathaoirleach

Is Mr. Crone aware of any situation in a secondary school where if a subject is not available in one school, the student might be able to go to another secondary school to gain access to the subject?

Mr. Paul Crone

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

If there is a cohort of girls in an all-girls school who want to study woodwork or metalwork, etc., is Mr. Crone aware of such students going to an adjoining school in the same town?

Mr. Paul Crone

It does happen and happens more than it should. There are logistical issues like distance, transport and supervision on the journeys. It also happens for certain subjects such as chemistry where teachers broadcast from one school to the other thus allowing students to gain access to the subject. Yes, it happens and there is potential for this matter to be further explored. In an all-girls school where that happens, it is usually only because there is a very insistent girl who really wants to study the subject. I believe that if the subject were offered in the school, there would be a higher uptake.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Crone has spoken about first, second and third year subjects in secondary schools and then students must choose a number of subjects. Transition year falls in the middle. Some schools are fantastic in the way they use transition year to help, assist and broaden the minds of an awful lot of students while other schools do not share the same vision for transition year. Does Mr. Crone believe that transition year could be used in a better way? Can it be used to broaden the vision and appetite so students take on what they may view as a more difficult subject? Rather than students choosing to continue studying an easier subject, could schools use transition year to give students the vision and confidence to take on a STEM subject?

Mr. Paul Crone

The NCCA is doing a consultation on transition year. We have made a submission to the study and our submission is very closely aligned to what the Chairman has said. There are three types of subjects in transition year: the core subjects; the taster subjects which the Chairman has mentioned, and students are given the opportunity to do all of the leaving certificate subjects; and the transition year-specific subjects, which are not linked to the curriculum. A large number of students find their passion in transition year. Perhaps they take up construction studies, having not studied woodwork, and realise they are really good at it, like it and enjoy it. The same applies to subjects such as engineering, graphics, art or whatever. Our vision for transition year must allow exploration to happen. If we do not provide that opportunity in transition year, we have missed a trick. That opportunity must be core to our vision for transition year.

An Cathaoirleach

Is Mr. Crone referring to Pathways in Technology or P-TECH?

Mr. Paul Crone

No. P-TECH is being piloted for first, second and third years in three schools in Dublin's north-east inner city. The junior cycle is now more flexible and students are allowed to take a smaller number of subjects, thus creating space on their timetable to undertake technology modules in robotics, mechanics and more subjects, which are supported by the National University of Ireland and the technology industry. P-TECH is different and involves students from first year onwards. The plan is that it will take them through to sixth year and at sixth year they will leave with a Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, STEM qualification that will get them some credit towards a STEM course at third level.

An Cathaoirleach

On classroom teaching and the practical learning of subjects, students often enjoy the practical side more than the theory side but of course there must be both.

Can STEM subjects be made more attractive with more practical work?

Mr. Paul Crone

I know exactly where the Chairman is coming from. As a practical teacher, I know that students want to be active and involved. They learn more by doing so we can put anything on the board we want and tell students anything but if they do it then they learn about the subject. I will give a practical example. A theory lesson in woodwork might be about sandpaper. So the teacher can tell students about the different types and grades of grit. If students have made something as part of a project then they will have to sand the item so they will practically decide which grit number of sandpaper suits the job. So students practically make decisions, the teacher conveys the information and students learn how to apply what they have heard in a practical manner and there are many opportunities like that in STEM. We must create the situation where students can make mistakes because a person often learns more from his or her mistakes than from any success. That is my point about a cliff edge. The students who are studying STEM subjects for their leaving certificate are so afraid to make a mistake or take a risk that their own learning is being disadvantaged because of the high stakes exam and there is too much at stake for the students. If we can create the pathways for students then it will allow them to explore, engage in practical learning but give them more opportunities to make mistakes and embrace the learning from those mistakes.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes. Is there more that can be done at primary level to prepare students to study STEM subjects? What measures can be taken to enhance the uptake of STEM subjects in DEIS schools?

Mr. Paul Crone

My answer to the first question is "Yes". In primary school you are very reliant on the interests of the teacher. When my children went to a primary school and if they had a teacher who was interested in music then they did a lot of music and the same applied to sport. Rather than specialise too early we need to embrace STEM skills at primary level. Innovation, creativity and collaboration are STEM skills and those skills can be embraced in Irish, English, History and all subjects. We must remove the barriers from the point of view of allowing students to experience success at a younger age in maths. In post-primary school we often have students come in to us and say they are not good at maths, and they have learned that. It is about creating those opportunities for success and embracing those skills at primary level. To open minds is key at primary level. Yes, there needs to be a little bit more done, particularly on in-service training so that teachers feel more prepared and equipped for STEM subjects.

On DEIS schools, yes, there is a scheme called STEM Passport for Inclusion, and money, which was recently granted to Maynooth University, will go a huge way towards building confidence, which is what is needed in DEIS schools. Many of the subjects are available in DEIS schools but we must build confidence in students, and provide enough time and career guidance to support the students, and give students that can do and will do attitude so that they pursue these subjects further. I would love to see more time created to be able to support students to follow their passion.

An Cathaoirleach

A lot of primary schools students, when they go into secondary school, have almost convinced themselves that they are not good at maths. Are there opportunities, in Mr. Crone's experience, for them to convince themselves that they are good at maths or recover? Can they recover from their lack of knowledge of maths when they go into secondary school? I ask these questions because such students often fall behind. I confess that I always struggled with maths because I had convinced myself that I was not good at it and I had to work extremely hard on maths to get over the line. Maths is a very difficult subject to get your head around and if you do not get additional help or support then it is very difficult.

Mr. Paul Crone

Maths is a really important subject. The only way to build confidence in it is to experience success.

There are opportunities to build that confidence among the students and support them with their mathematical ability. The key is when you see relevance in what you are doing. If you are doing algebra for example, it is important to have the time to explore where algebra has practical applications that will make sense to students, and in a skills-based curriculum you have those opportunities to get students active. Where it falls down then is by the leaving certificate, where the focus is on the make-or-break exam. Teaching first year is not just a matter of looking at first year; teachers have a mind on the CAO points and that is hamstringing it all the way down. What we want to do is create the opportunities where students can experience that success and have the confidence to try it, and fail or succeed, and eventually bring them to success.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Crone for coming before the committee and I am glad we were able to facilitate him this week. This conversation will be part and parcel of our continuing work on the STEM subjects. We will suspend for a few minutes to allow the other witnesses to enter.

Sitting suspended at 11.41 a.m. and resumed at 11.43 a.m.

An Cathaoirleach

On behalf of the committee I welcome: Mr. Frank Jones, general secretary of the Irish Federation of University Teachers, IFUT; Máirín Ní Chéileachair, head of education and research and assistant general secretary of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation, INTO; Ms Moira Leydon, assistant general secretary, education and research, from the Association of Secondary Teachers, Ireland, ASTI; Ms Caitlin Faye Maniti, president of the Irish Second-Level Students' Union, ISSU; Ms Beth O'Reilly, Union of Students in Ireland, USI; and Mr. David Duffy, education and research officer with the Teachers' Union of Ireland, TUI. The witnesses are here to discuss the future of STEM subjects in Irish education. Mr. Jones of the IFUT is also representing SIPTU, which was invited. Fórsa was also invited but declined the invitation on this occasion. I would also like to welcome Ms Maeve Richardson of the ISSU who is in the Public Gallery.

The format of the meeting is that I will invite the witnesses to make a brief opening statement in the following order: Mr. Jones; Máirín Ní Chéileachair; Ms Leydon; Ms Faye Maniti; Ms O'Reilly; and Mr. Duffy. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. As members are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on its website following today's meeting.

I remind witnesses of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not make criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity you will be directed by the Chair to discontinue your remarks and it is imperative that you comply with such directions.

Mr. Frank Jones

I thank the Chair and committee for having us before them today. STEM education and research are increasingly recognised globally as fundamental to national development and productivity, economic competitiveness and societal wellbeing. The unprecedented economic, pedagogical, cultural and social impact of the Covid-19 pandemic on higher education has led to transformations in education and academic practice in higher education institutions that are yet to be fully realised. STEM developments build on fundamental knowledge and it is now crucial that the research funding base is broad enough to support future innovation. As President Leptin from the European Research Council said in Davos this year, "Modern economies cannot afford to invest exclusively in applied research.”

There can be little doubt that these interacting factors will have a significant impact on higher education in Ireland and the working conditions of academics in the short and long term. At the same time, drivers such as increasing student numbers, widening participation, resource constraints and decreased funding have contributed to higher teaching, research and administrative loads among many academics. Academics are also under increasing pressure to publish high quality research, apply for grants, demonstrate research impact and build external links with industry and community. STEM fields, in particular, are developing at a rapid pace, boosted by technological advances such as big data and new possibilities for automation.

IFUT welcomes thoughtful discussion on ideas for STEM in Irish education and on the future of STEM in higher education, in particular. IFUT recognises that higher education builds on primary and second level education and encourages resourcing and developments in these sectors, including the current NCCA STEM education development group’s work on a new primary science curriculum.

Ireland’s skills gap is long-running and IFUT believes there is a mismatch between the scale of the problem and the solutions offered to date. In this regard, IFUT has welcomed the Oireachtas committee report on future funding, which includes an examination of the needs of those in precarious employment and atypical contracts in higher education. The report states it is imperative that Irish universities ensure their research staff have employment contracts that offer security of tenure, career progression and salary scales commensurate with their qualifications and experience. The fixed-term nature of many academic contracts contributes to the precariousness of academic careers. Continuing to employ people on a succession of short-term contracts is not acceptable.

IFUT recognises the status of women in STEM in higher education and that the sector has made strides toward gender equality, but it still has some way to go. Although coming from a very low base, support from higher education in government has led to strengthened efforts to recruit women academics and researchers in STEM. In Ireland, women continue to be underrepresented in STEM fields and leadership positions. Some 41 per cent of those graduating with a PhD in science, mathematics and computing are women, which is lower than in the EU but nevertheless is within a 60:40 definition of gender balance. However, that disappears when we look at those who are permanent STEM academics, only 35% of whom are women compared with roughly half across the EU. The picture becomes even more unbalanced at full professorial level.

According to the most recent data available from Science Foundation Ireland SFI, in academia only 31% of full-time STEM faculty and 27% of STEM deans and department heads are women. According to the most recent data available for Irish universities, only 42% of the core funded academics in STEMM - the extra "M" refers to medicine - disciplines are female and this figure is worse for ITs at 39%. The same report indicates that only 27% of university professors were female in 2020, representing only a marginal improvement on the 2017-19 figure of 25%, indicating that the scissors phenomena still continues and requires meaningful attention.

IFUT calls for fundamental, long-term, co-ordinated transformational change of the entire system so as to prepare Ireland for the future.

This transformation will require meaningful investment in STEM education, at all levels from primary to third-level, to ensure that all practitioners are supported in providing students in Ireland with the increasingly important data management and technological skills to contribute to Irish and global society. It will also require a significant reduction in the reliance of the higher education sector on precarious staff, which will improve the resilience and diversity of those employed in STEM. Finally, it will require broadening of the research funding base for STEM to ensure that Ireland is positioned to maximise any opportunity, economic and intellectual, that the increasingly fast-moving landscape provides.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Jones.

Ms Máirín Ní Chéileachair

The INTO is the oldest and largest teachers trade union in Ireland and represents almost 50,000 teachers at primary level in the Republic of Ireland and primary and post-primary level in Northern Ireland. Gabhaimid buíochas leis an gcoiste as ucht an deis an t-ábhar seo a phlé leis.

In January 2022, the INTO made a submission to the Department of Education as part of the Department’s consultation on phase 2 of the STEM education implementation plan. In February this year, a further submission was made to this committee. The Department’s STEM education policy statement provides a national focus on STEM education in early years settings and schools, and we welcome the launch of the second implementation plan on 2 March by the Ministers for Education, and Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputies Norma Foley and Roderic O’Gorman. It sets out an ambitious journey up to 2026, which will be dynamic and evolve to meet the challenges of the future, with a vision to provide the highest quality STEM education experience for learners that nurtures curiosity, inquiry, problem-solving, creativity, ethical behaviour, confidence and persistence, along with the excitement of collaborative innovation.

The INTO welcomes this opportunity to contribute further to consultation and discussion around STEM education. The foundations for STEM education begin in early childhood. Young children naturally engage in early STEM exploration through hands-on multi-sensory and creative experiences. By doing so, they develop curiosity, inquisitiveness, critical thinking and problem-solving capacities. Such is the rapid pace of change and technological development that in 2019 the OECD predicted that more than 60% of children attending school today will work in a career that does not currently exist. STEM subjects are key enablers for the economy and the development of important skills and competencies in our young people.

The Irish primary school curriculum strives to promote the holistic development of the child, with its focus on the development of learners’ skills, knowledge and dispositions in an integrated, cross-curricular way. Science in primary school should nurture these attributes and allow children to develop the life skills they need. Learner engagement and achievement in STEM is most effective at primary level when pupils are enabled to explore, investigate and create, using cross-curricular approaches that encompass a variety of subjects and activities. This was evident in the findings of the 2020 STEM report, which found that 88% of primary schools were very aware of the national STEM education agenda, with a clear articulation by schools of the importance, value and opportunities that STEM education held for students.

Findings in this research in regard to the engagement of teachers and practitioners with, and use of, STEM pedagogies in the 2020 report were very positive. Where high-quality STEM teaching was observed at primary level, it was often characterised by children’s agency in their own learning, use of the environment and opportunities to experiment. At system level, significant work in STEM education is underway in areas such as curriculum and assessment reform, teacher professional development and the embedding of digital technologies in all classroom activities.

Our current primary curriculum is the oldest in Europe, and the process of developing a new primary curriculum framework is well under way. In fact, it will be launched by the Minister the day after tomorrow. The framework will be presented in five broad curriculum areas, one of which will be STEM. When the INTO consulted with members on the draft primary maths curriculum in 2022, some expressed concern about the grouping of mathematics with science, technology and engineering, namely that some of the fundamental mathematic skills would be lost and the critical importance of the development of foundational numeracy and maths skills in the early years of primary school should be nurtured. The INTO has many recommendations for the future of STEM.

With regard to class size, we sill have large classes - some of the largest in Europe.

A reduced pupil–teacher ratio is a prerequisite for active pedagogies. The staffing schedule has reduced by one pupil per mainstream teacher for the last three years, but we are still three pupils over the EU average.

We need to support schools in the reimagining of creative spaces where STEM education methodologies and STEM-based learning can thrive. We need Increased investment for this. It is imperative, as was stated earlier by other speakers, that both practising and student teachers are provided with the training and continuous professional development, CPD, that is necessary. The INTO recommends that CPD for STEM should be provided on a continual, planned and well-resourced basis.

In order to delegate STEM-related preparation for teaching and learning to an in-school management member, school leadership posts need to be replaced. The STEM report promotes integrated experiences across curricula, which poses challenges, which we hope will be served by the draft framework.

Outdoor learning provides children with an opportunity to experience the value of the natural world and their environment. Sufficient investment must be provided to provide these spaces to facilitate the interdisciplinary nature of STEM, particularly in schools which do not have these outdoor spaces.

I will skip over the rest of my presentation because I am conscious of time. In conclusion, STEM subjects are relevant in our everyday lives, accentuating the need for effective education from the outset, which is in early years education. As the world we live in continues to change, it is important that we equip our young learners with the STEM tools to enable them to tackle these obstacles in a problem-solving, solution-focused approach. Gabhaim buíochas leis an gcoiste as ucht éisteacht liom.  Bheinn sásta aon chuid den ráiteas nó den aighneacht a phlé agus bheinn sásta aon cheisteanna a fhreagairt.

Ms Moira Leydon

Good afternoon. I thank the committee for the invitation. I always preface my remarks in this area by saying how much we value the opportunity to talk to our legislators and policymakers. It is not something we ever take for granted. The type of dialogue we have is central to good policymaking. I will not go into much detail. I want to refer to a number of key concerns of the ASTI. The committee has received a more substantive submission. I am a great believer in starting with what is working well. Unlike many other OECD and EU countries, maths and science are practically compulsory subjects. Maths is compulsory and the uptake of science is compulsory in all but name in the junior cycle. That is a strong foundation. We all know there are debates in England about making sure every student over 16 receives mathematics education. Mathematics is compulsory for all of our students right up until school leaving.

The OECD Pisa report shows that our 15-year-olds are consistently among the highest performers in maths and science. Significantly, we are not just high performers overall but the percentage of our students deemed to be low achievers is much lower compared with elsewhere, at 17% compared with the OECD average of 23%. These trends provide what one would see as a strong knowledge base or uptake of STEM. However, there is significant concern that the targets being set in the national STEM plan are not being met. Two key targets apply to second level. The first is the target to increase by 20% the uptake of leaving certificate chemistry, physics, technology and engineering subjects and to increase by 40% the uptake of STEM subjects by females. I am afraid the news on that is not so good. Regarding gender targets, progress was made on the number of female students taking STEM subjects in the junior cycle in 2019. The number of girls taking technology at junior cycle increased by 30%, while there was a 40% increase in technical graphics, 25% in metalwork, and 41% in technology. I do not wish to blind the committee with figures. I am saying there has been significant progress in the gender dimension at junior cycle.

The problems, however, start when we come to senior cycle. That is fundamental and we need to look at this. It relates to investment priorities and decisions at national and at school level. Some 94% of boys' schools provide biology, physics and chemistry at senior cycle, compared with only 82% of girls' schools. Similarly, the percentage of girls' schools offering a STEM subject other than maths or science is 68%, compared with 95% of boys' schools.

The ASTI would make the point that investment in education is a key factor, because if there are not enough teachers in the system, schools cannot offer subject choice and they certainly cannot engage with the pathways to which Mr. Paul Crone from the National Association for Principals and Deputy Principals adverted, which is part of the redevelopment of the senior cycle.

We have been here before to talk about guidance counselling in education. One fundamental dimension of equality in education at second level is making sure that, from the moment students enter second level education, they have that scaffolding, nurturing, pastoral care and guidance about and consequences of subject choice from the very start. At the moment, the allocation ratio means that a school of 500 pupils will get a person in the post for 18 hours. The typical teacher's post is for 22 hours a week. A school of 500 pupils is allowed a guidance counsellor for 18 hours, which is not a full post. That increases to 26 hours, which is a teacher and a quarter, for a school of 700. Our guidance system needs massive investment. We acknowledge the Department has put in place innovative, out-of-field training programmes for teachers in physics and chemistry, which is welcome. We need to keep up that because it is critical.

I will conclude on this point. An interesting dimension of STEM education in Ireland which is remarked on internationally, including at the BT Young Scientist and Technology Exhibition, is what we call enrichment activities, including at the BT Young Scientist and Technology Exhibition, SciFest, the Spider Awards, and so on. These are great. They are not just confined to transition year, which is important. As the trade union representing teachers, we would make the point that for these to be successful, they should be integrated into the curriculum rather than being just little add-ons in which children with cultural capital, in particular, can engage. We need to have teachers with the time to engage in this type of planning.

I have gone on a bit. I thank the committee. I wanted to capture some of the typical trade union demands, which are for investment, support for the work of our schools, and to follow on the good policy advice, which is already available to the State.

Ms Caitlin Faye Maniti

Caitlin Faye Maniti is ainm dom agus tá mé mar uachtarán ar Aontas Daltaí Iar-bhunscoile na hÉireann. I thank the committee for the invitation to present today. The Irish Second-Level students Union, ISSU, is the national representative body for second-levels students in Ireland. One of our core aims is to actively address the challenges and worries faced by students on a local, regional, national and international level. The ISSU is fully committed to working alongside all stakeholders to find solutions to the issues that face students. It is in this spirit that I speak before the committee today.

The study of STEM subjects opens up a variety of different doors for students in progressing to further and higher education. However, we recognise that the opportunities for all students to learn a STEM subject have significant barriers including lack of resourcing and funding, the accessibility of these subjects, and female stereotypes and biases. On the lack of resourcing and funding, newer, smaller subjects such as computer science need to become more mainstream. To do this, we need the infrastructure and teacher supply. Computers and coding are popular among students as hobbies, but to properly support leaving certificate computer science and junior cycle coding, we must look at the bigger picture. To put it simply, we do not have enough teachers available. Students can enter a plethora of different computer science-related competitions from the BT Young Scientist and Technology Exhibition to SciFest to VEX Robotics. However, the majority of students will not get an opportunity to study computer science as a subject because it will not be offered at their school. The ISSU recommends that there be an increase of investments in facilities for carrying out these STEM subjects.

I will address the accessibility of these subjects. The lack of resourcing and funding of these subjects contributes to their inaccessibility. Schools such as DEIS schools in disadvantaged areas and rural schools often suffer the short end of the stick when it comes to funding. The cost of materials needed to facilitate subjects such as technology or graphics may be unattainable for these schools, therefore excluding these cohorts of students from many opportunities and-or reducing the quality of their education. Notably, during Covid, when schools closed due to high cases, teaching and learning reverted to online learning, where students were left behind in their education, in rural areas where broadband and WiFi was inadequate. Since then, the use of technology has significantly increased and schools began using these systems of automation to advance the teaching and learning experience. However, due to the accessibility issues I have outlined, students in these areas are still being left behind.

The ISSU recommends more support for students in rural areas to access digital learning tools by providing infrastructure for students to purchase technological devices, along with improving broadband connections in rural Ireland. The ISSU also recommends an increase in funding and resources for DEIS schools and schools in disadvantaged areas to facilitate STEM subjects.

STEM has been always a typically male dominated field. Currently 73% of workers are male and 27% are female and this attitude is fostered in schools. STEM subjects such as woodwork, metalwork and technology are available only in a select number of schools and the majority of these schools are single-sex, male schools. Even at the early stages of life, girls are not given the opportunity to develop a love for STEM as they do not have the access to study the subjects in school. Female students may attend coeducational schools as they would have more of an opportunity to study these subjects. However, many of them are then exposed to sexism and discrimination due to gender stereotypes and biases. This ultimately discourages female students from joining in and means they are significantly less likely than their male peers to pursue education in STEM. This heavily contributes to the massive barriers to females entering STEM careers. The ISSU recommends the creation of initiatives to encourage female students and ensure they feel welcomed and supported in pursuing practical STEM subjects to leaving certificate level. In order to ensure that educational equity is established, the ISSU further recommends the creation of new initiatives to ensure a long-term impact. Emphasis should be placed on informing and supporting girls’ career and third level education choices. Support should be given to all-girls schools to gain facilities and resources to teach more STEM subjects, notably engineering, metalwork, woodwork, and technology.

The ISSU welcomes the plan to implement the updated subject curricula mentioned in the senior cycle redevelopment publication in relation to the STEM subjects of biology, chemistry and physics. STEM needs to be more relevant to students. Many are just rote learning chemicals and experiments and not actually understanding what it is they are studying. Even laboratory subjects are taught to the exam. Some chemistry students may never perform a titration and can still get a H1 despite this. This is a massive oversight and senior cycle redevelopment presents an opportunity to rectify this and make STEM subjects engaging and relevant for students. The new leaving certificate climate action and sustainable development subject presents a rare opportunity for students to study a fast-evolving science relevant to their daily lives. The ISSU would like to take this opportunity to mention our recommendation for climate science to be included on the course which would further develop young people's passion for STEM.

There is huge potential and demand for an increase in STEM subjects and the current inequalities in these subjects should no longer be tolerated. I thank members for listening and am happy to address any questions they may have.

An Cathaoirleach

I now invite Ms O'Reilly to make her opening statement.

Ms Beth O'Reilly

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for this opportunity to participate in the discussion on the future of STEM in Irish education. My name is Beth O’Reilly and I am president of the Union of Students in Ireland, US, the national representative body for third level students in Ireland. We have consulted with our member organisations from third level students’ unions across Ireland to prepare for this discussion.

As we look to the future, STEM will continue to play a critical role in Ireland’s economic and social development. With the growth of the tech industry, Ireland has become a tech hub for major players like Google, Facebook and Microsoft. This has led to increased demand for skilled STEM professionals in fields such software engineering, data science and cybersecurity. Despite this increased demand, the Minister for Further and Higher Education warned in June of 2021 that there were skills shortages in key STEM industries like IT and engineering. To continue to meet the demand, Ireland must continue to invest heavily in STEM education and training. After the warning of the skills shortages, several initiatives were aimed at increasing the number of STEM graduates including the addition of 10,000 free spaces on almost 300 Springboard+ courses to allow learners to upskill in cybersecurity, virtual reality, health innovation and logistics.

Ireland's STEM policy aims to foster the development of a highly skilled workforce to enhance Ireland's image as a top education and training environment for all Europeans, to facilitate entry into career fields related to STEM, and to promote the development of computational thinking and digital skills. However, there is still room to further increase our levels of STEM education and, in that context, USI is calling for a number of measures, including increasing funding for STEM education, encouraging diversity in STEM fields, creating a culture of inclusivity in STEM, working towards unconscious bias training, increasing the availability of degree programmes, increasing access to STEM, improving student retention rates, supporting apprenticeships and vocational training programmes and increasing PhD funding.

One of the most effective ways to create more STEM graduates is to invest more resources in STEM education. This could involve an increase in funding at primary and post primary level, where STEM should be integrated into the curriculum in primary school. Furthermore, there should be increased funding for scholarships and bursaries for STEM students and additional resources provided for STEM-related extracurricular activities across all levels of education.

Studies have shown that women and other underrepresented groups are less likely to pursue careers in STEM fields. To address this, the Government should implement policies that encourage more diversity in STEM such as offering targeted outreach and mentorship programs for women and other underrepresented groups. The Government should launch a public awareness campaign that highlights the achievement of women in STEM, provide mentorship and offer targeted scholarships and bursaries for underrepresented groups in STEM education. STEM programmes in further education and higher education institutions should adopt policies and practices that foster a culture of inclusivity. This includes providing training for teaching staff on how to create an inclusive classroom and developing curricula that are more diverse and culturally responsive. Unconscious bias perpetuates stereotypes and limits diversity in STEM. The Government needs to work with further and higher education institutions and employers to develop training programs that help people to recognise and overcome unconscious bias.

There is also a need for an increase in the amount of STEM-focused programmes available at third level. This could involve creating new degree programmes in emerging fields like data science and cybersecurity, creating additional optional modules for students in these areas or expanding existing programmes to accommodate additional students.

Financial barriers have a visible effect on access to STEM courses at third level, especially for students from low-income backgrounds. The Government needs to provide financial assistance for education, improve access to online resources and create more opportunities for people to study STEM subjects in community colleges and further education institutions.

Many institutions have academic writing centres and mathematic centres that help students who may be struggling and need extra guidance. However, dropout rates in some STEM courses are as high as 80%, with students saying that the complexity of the courses was a reason for withdrawing early. Serious investment in academic supports in STEM is essential to retain students. There are hidden costs associated with attending third level and this is particularly the case with STEM courses where the cost of things like equipment, mandatory field trips and software can cause massive problems for student retention.

Given that not all students can, or wish to, attend a traditional university or college, support for apprenticeships and vocational programs should be improved by providing financial incentives to industry players to encourage them to take on apprentices. We need to see an expansion in the apprenticeship system to include more STEM fields, as well as financial support aimed at apprentices and trainees.

Funding needs to be increased for research grants, fellowships and other programmes that support STEM research. Collaboration between academia and industry is essential. By providing funding for joint research projects, the Government can create incentives for companies to work with higher education institutions on research. The Government must also expand STEM research facilities by investing in the laboratories and research centres in our education institutions. This would allow researchers to access the latest technology and equipment needed to conduct cutting-edge research. It is also crucial that researchers are paid a living wage for their time.

An Cathaoirleach

I now invite Mr. Duffy to make a statement on behalf of the TUI.

Mr. David Duffy

On behalf of the TUI, I thank the committee for the opportunity to make this submission on the topic of STEM education. Ireland rightly recognises the work of peacemakers like Hume, writers like Casey and Wilde, poets like Yeats, artists like Le Brocquy and musicians like U2. However, how many of us speak of Nobel laureates like William Campbell or Ernest Walton? How often do any of us speak of Tyndall, Hamilton or Kelvin?

Every subject and programme has value. The post primary curriculum should continue to be broadly based. School and college timetables are finite and hence, a zero sum game when students are choosing subjects. Choosing one subject means not choosing another - possibly STEM - subject. If new and valuable subjects are added to a curriculum, schools and colleges need resources to prevent the loss of resources from existing subjects and courses.

Ireland has a well respected education system despite historic under investment. Ireland performs well on international comparisons regarding STEM and has the highest level of STEM graduates of any member of the EU. In the Programme for International Student Assessment, PISA, 2018, students in Ireland were significantly above the OECD average in science and mathematics. Equally, performance by students in Irish schools was strong in Progress in International Reading and Literacy, PIRLS, in 2016, with students in Ireland performing very highly in digital literacy. Second year students in Ireland were among the highest performers in both science and maths among the more than 30 countries that participated in the Trends in International and Science Study, TIMSS, in 2019.

The one notable negative for Ireland is our performance in terms of whether very high-achieving students in Ireland are being sufficiently challenged.

Learner engagement with STEM is very high in post-primary, further education and training and higher education. Schools, colleges of further education and the institute of technology-technological university sector play a key role in this. Apprenticeships in the institute of technology-technological university sector also play a key role.

There is widespread recognition of a teacher supply crisis. Studies by management bodies, teacher unions and State agencies all speak of this. Student numbers in both post-primary and further and higher education are continuing to rise significantly, thereby increasing the need for qualified teachers and lecturers. The TUI has long made clear that the duration and both financial and opportunity cost of initial teacher education discourages people from choosing teaching careers. Precarious employment, especially in tertiary education, makes teaching and lecturing even less appealing, as do large class sizes.

The education system at all levels is performing very well in the area of STEM. We can, however, improve. I started by saying that we need an education system that is funded and equipped to nurture great figures such as Hamilton, Kelvin, Walton and Campbell. However, we also need an education system that can nurture towering figures in music, art, sport, humanities, etc. The only limit to achievement in STEM in Ireland is our imagination and, of course, the resourcing available.

The TUI would like to make a number of recommendations to the committee. There needs to be smaller student-staff ratios in all sectors of the education system. Exchequer funding of the education system must be dramatically increased starting with a gradual move over three years upward towards the international average for investment in education as a percentage of GDP. Additional targeted teacher allocation should be given to schools so that small schools can provide STEM subjects with small classes and thereby equitably maintain student choice and equality of opportunity. This additional teacher allocation could be provided by way of curricular concession. Curricular concession should also be provided where schools wish to provide new subjects such as computer science. Additional supports should be given to schools that do not have access to business locally. Equity across the education system is important. Additional staffing of guidance services in schools, further education colleges, higher education institutions and the adult guidance service would be helpful. The combined physics-chemistry course in the leaving certificate should continue to exist. More progression pathways should be recognised. More teacher continuous professional development, CPD, should be available within schooltime and that CPD should be of the highest quality. Society needs to cease being proud of being poor at maths or science.

There needs to be a significant increase in the quantum of middle management posts. The forthcoming TG4 children’s channel should broadcast educational and entertaining shows about STEM. Society needs to recognise that STEM does not just happen in multinational companies; it happens in every hospital laboratory testing patients for cancer, in food safety centres and in medicine. Schools should be allowed to pay the subject association membership fees of their staff. Additional support should be given to gifted and talented students. Apprenticeships should be valued more by society.

I thank the committee for listening to this opening statement. The TUI would be more than happy to answer any questions that members may have. The TUI would also like to direct the committee to the more extensive written submission we made to it last week, which provides more detail on the issues outlined above.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I welcome all the hard work the witnesses put into their opening statements. I know I speak on behalf of the Cathaoirleach and the rest of the committee when I say they are very helpful to us in deliberating on our work.

I have a few questions for Mr. Jones. There is a serious issue in third-level education with precarity in academic careers. I think we discussed that previously. It is an ongoing issue. Is it the case that because of the precarity in third-level education, a lot of people are deciding to get jobs as teachers in second-level education or is that a misreading of the problem?

Mr. Frank Jones

I do not think it is a misreading. By repeatedly rolling over fixed-term contracts, we are not keeping the best people in higher and further education. The Deputy is correct. The committee will be well aware of the situation and has made strong recommendations with timelines. Unfortunately, for the committee and for all of us in the sector, they have not been applied.

If there was more certainty of employment and less precarity across the sector, we would retain the best.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

For the purpose of ensuring that STEM in Ireland is promoted and developed as much as we want it to be, we must ensure that the best people remain in third-level education and excel there. Is that correct?

Mr. Frank Jones

Absolutely. We have a lot of people who make commitments far beyond what has been recognised in salary or a contract and remain within the sector at enormous personal cost. In many cases, we are coming across members who are in their late thirties before they secure contracts of indefinite duration or tenure and it is only then that they can start to purchase houses and start families. We are not losing them all but those we are keeping are being kept at enormous personal cost to themselves. A lot can be done. If the recommendations and decisions of this committee were acted upon, a lot would be done.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Are many of them going into second-level education because of precarity?

Mr. Frank Jones

Some are leaving education altogether. A fairly low percentage of those with qualifications in STEM remain in academia even on completion of PhDs. The figure is approximately 23% and covering primary, secondary and third-level education.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

So many of them are being lost to the education system completely. It is not the case that because they cannot get careers in third-level education, they are going into second-level education. Many of them are just moving out of education.

Mr. Frank Jones

Yes. They are moving into industry. We do not expect all PhD completions will end up in academia. We know they are required in industry but more should be remaining in academia.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Another major issue the committee wants to look at is trying to ensure more women study STEM in secondary school and third-level education. In his statement, Mr. Jones said that 41% of those graduating with a PhD in science, mathematics and computing are women. I was quite surprised by this as I did not think it would be quite as high. Obviously, the figure should be higher. My concern was that it would be lower. He went on to say that part of the difficulty is that after completing a PhD, their involvement drops. Why is that?

Mr. Frank Jones

They are the statistics. I do not know why that is the case. I would have expected that it would not be that way. I am not sure of the reasons.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I suppose the argument that women are not interested in STEM seems to be completely disputed by the fact that 41% of people with PhDs in science, mathematics and computing are women. Unfortunately, when it gets to higher-level professorial level, that is not being reflected.

Mr. Frank Jones

We had a wonderful occasion yesterday celebrating six female university presidents at the same time but we are missing out on a lot of grades in between. Professorial roles are disproportionately male.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I have a few questions for Ms Ní Chéileachair regarding her statement on behalf of the INTO. When someone is teaching primary school students, it is different from teaching secondary school and third-level students. One point she made was that many teachers believe there should be more time devoted to teaching just mathematics as opposed to getting caught up in other science subjects.

Ms Máirín Ní Chéileachair

There was a concern that mathematics is not a stand-alone subject in the revised curriculum. There would be five subject specification areas and mathematics will be included with STEM, which is new for primary education. Teachers were worried that mathematics itself may not get enough time within that subject specification. We are very conscious that for all of STEM, a good mathematical foundation is also needed and we are concerned that with the time allocations for the revised specifications, there may not be enough time given to mathematics. This was a concern they raised in our consultation with them.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

That is a reflection of primary schools' understanding of the importance of mathematics for children going through the system. Is there any issue with the quality of teaching of mathematics? Sometimes the committee can be concerned about the quality of teaching of Irish to primary school teachers. Is there any concern or is Ms Ní Chéileachair satisfied that people-----

Ms Máirín Ní Chéileachair

There does not appear to be. In my submission rather than my opening statement, we would have looked, as did Ms Leydon and Mr. Duffy, at the performance of fourth-class pupils in PIRL and TIMS studies.

At primary level, our performance is extremely high across OECD countries and the EU when it comes to science and maths. There do not appear to be concerns. That was in the submission we made last week. There do not seem to be the same concerns we would express around the teaching of the Irish language, for instance. I know, over the years, the Teaching Council has engaged with some of the teacher education colleges around the standard of maths teaching, but that seems to have been addressed.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

In terms of the ASTI, Ms Leydon gave some very interesting statistics. She said that 94% of boys' schools provide biology, chemistry and physics but only 82% of girls' schools do. Is that because, traditionally, girls' schools did not offer these subjects? Why has that not caught up yet, in Ms Leydon's opinion?

Ms Moira Leydon

It is a good question. An even worse figure is that this drops to 66% in mixed schools. It is complex. There are a number of factors, the first of which is that girls' schools are typically voluntary secondary schools, which tend to have older buildings and facilities, etc. School infrastructure is critical. If you are talking about having a wide curriculum choice, you need the space and you need modern space. I do know who referred to the old days when you sat in serried rows, but it is around a long time. You sat in serried rows and you learned. That is not the way the curriculum is enacted or taught nowadays. You need high-quality learning spaces and enough teachers in the system to be able to teach the subject. A dilemma which frequently faces schools is that they want to offer physics or chemistry, which are minority subjects anyway. To employ a physics or chemistry teacher, that teacher must also have a number of other subjects. There may not be sufficient demand to create a full-time, permanent post for that teacher. Decisions are made about what to prioritise. The unions have consistently responded that there should be, as Mr. Duffy said, curricular concessions in terms of teacher allocation and additional teachers allocated to the school to facilitate a wide curriculum. We have also made the point, which is a view the three teacher unions share, that we should be able to give teachers permanent jobs but they are shared between schools.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Different schools.

Ms Moira Leydon

That model is working very successfully in situ with resource teachers, as they were called in the past. The teacher has a permanent job, certainty, security of tenure and all those decent, old-fashioned things, but he or she is shared between schools. This poses a particular difficulty at second level. It is to do with what we would say are management prerogatives. We have consistently made the point that not every school can have the full complement of teachers, but surely in small areas, teachers can be shared with a bit of creative thinking and flexibility at school management level. To go back to the question, that is why there is the differential, shall we say, provision between schools. It is to do with space, infrastructure and culture. Girls' schools would typically have focused on the humanities and home economics, etc. It is also the investment environment around teacher allocation.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Ms Leydon would like to see, for example, a teacher who is an expert in physics and applied maths be able to teach in perhaps two or three schools and have permanence as though employed in one school. Is that correct?

Ms Moira Leydon

Absolutely. That is the fundamental problem. We have not given sufficient attention to what Covid-19 taught us about the capacity, as Ms Maniti alluded to very eloquently. When schools had to shut, schools, teachers and teams of teachers had to engage in delivery of learning online. It was very stressful but, on the other hand, it was liberating because they discovered there were other ways to teach, as well as being in the classroom. There needs to be a stronger dialogue between all of the parties, including trade unions, about how we can have permanent posts for teachers, with all of the important security that brings to their professional life and progressing in their career, and availability to schools of the proper number of staff to put on a wide curriculum. That is a debate which is evaded, unfortunately.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Is the hesitancy because, traditionally, the teacher was employed by one school and one school alone?

Ms Moira Leydon

Exactly.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I would have thought it does not require an enormous amount of revolutionary thought to try to develop-----

Ms Moira Leydon

It takes a few nudges, as they say. Mr. Duffy may wish to talk about the nudges.

Mr. David Duffy

As my colleague from the ASTI said, it already happens in some ETB areas on the west coast, particularly island schools in the Gaeltacht regions. There are logistical issues involved. If we were to scale it up nationally, we would have to see if it was actually possible.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Who is the employer in that case?

Mr. David Duffy

It is the ETB. It is a slightly different construct than a community, secondary or primary school with a single board of management for one school. We would have to examine that. The bigger issue is around the curricular concession for an individual school. That is how we can resolve the issue, to a large extent. If an additional subject is being introduced, it is seen as a priority. An example has been computer science over the last few years. Additional resources are provided to the school to ensure it is not robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I have a question for Ms Maniti related to Ms Leydon's statement. She made the point that in mixed or coeducational schools the number of girls involved in biology, chemistry and physics is below what it is in all-girl schools. Ms Maniti stated that many female students who attend coeducational schools are exposed to sexism and discrimination due to gender stereotypes and biases. Is it a problem in mixed schools that girls are suffering from sexism, which deters them from doing STEM subjects?

Ms Caitlin Faye Maniti

I would like to note that in the development of this submission and the opening statement, we issued a call through all officers in the union to volunteer to make this submission. A large proportion of them were females in all-girl schools and coeducational schools. They had the passion and highlighted the issue the Deputy raised. It is not only about access but the experience of studying in a school where the majority is male and being ostracised or left out, not being engaged with or feeling left out in general in their study of STEM subjects. We do not have many statistics on that but we have collected a lot of anecdotal data.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

It is a big question but what would the union's view be? There is a political discussion under way on whether there should be all coeducational schools in the future. Does Ms Maniti see any fear in that, in terms of the problem she highlighted?

Ms Caitlin Faye Maniti

Will the Deputy repeat the question?

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

There is a discussion going on that in the future, if we are starting up new schools, they should all be coeducational. Statistically, what appears to be presented is that girls in all-girl schools are more likely to study STEM subjects than girls in coeducational schools where, as Ms Maniti indicated, there can be some sexism. Does that raise any concerns for the committee, in Ms Maniti's opinion?

Ms Caitlin Faye Maniti

That is a good question. It something I have not thought of either. The stance and view of the union are that we are for coeducational schools and phasing out single-sex schools. That has been a discussion in our union. I do not have an answer to the Deputy's question. It is something we would also like to consider.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank Ms O'Reilly for her opening statement. What is her assessment of the third level sector at present and the participation of women at third level? Is it something she would have concerns about when it comes to the study of STEM?

Ms Beth O'Reilly

Participation is definitely increasing. We have seen a huge amount of work in local colleges with women in STEM societies promoting women's involvement in STEM courses. They engage in inter-varsity events that promote the more social aspect of being a woman in STEM because that can be one of the most isolating parts. College is a very social time. Being the only woman on a course is very isolating.

For us to really encourage women to enter into STEM courses and degrees, what we need to be doing is highlighting the women currently in those STEM courses and the women who are teaching those courses. It is so clichéd but if you cannot see it, you cannot be it. In science and technology, we have been historically shown the achievements of men much more prominently than we have been shown those of women.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

That links in with the concern Mr. Jones mentioned that even though 41% of PhD STEM graduates are women, it is much lower at a professorial level.

I will conclude with a question for Mr. Duffy. I mentioned before that sometimes we can overcorrect things in Ireland. Presumably, we have to be careful we do not completely undermine the significance and importance of the humanities in our attempts to try to increase the study of STEM. Would Mr. Duffy agree with that?

Mr. David Duffy

Indeed, it is a balancing act. We firmly believe that all students should have access to all subjects, not just in post-primary but also in further and higher education and so on. Obviously, there are resourcing issues that come with that. STEM subjects are incredibly important. They constitute about one third of the entire post-primary curriculum, for example. They are incredibly important from an economic point of view. We also need to bear in mind that other subjects are also very important. What is seen as being higher in a hierarchy of subjects now could well be different in three or five years' time. We need to balance that. What we need to recognise is that if we want to prioritise certain subjects at a point in time, and I will use the STEM subjects as an example because that is the main topic for today, we need to do it in a way that incentivises those subjects but does not disincentivise something else. There are some steps that might help with that, that is, helping one subject but not necessarily making difficulty for another. The solutions are largely the same across all sectors from the further and higher education and post-primary levels. One such solution is around class size. In higher education, the class size is 23:1. The OECD average is 15:1. Another is awarding a grant for institutions to provide STEM subjects. Many of the STEM subjects require extremely expensive equipment or facilities. To use that phrase again, institutions are often robbing Peter to pay Paul. If we want to incentivise STEM subjects without disadvantaging another area, a maintenance grant for those highly expensive pieces of equipment, chemicals or whatever would be helpful. Further solutions are additional guidance services across all sectors and access to labs. Our higher education, post-primary and further education members all tell us that access to labs can sometimes be quite difficult. Buildings are obviously a finite space. The curricular concession I have mentioned is another possibility. Another thing that may be useful and to which my colleagues in the ASTI made reference, relates to the fact that physics and chemistry are often minority subjects in schools. Many schools, particularly in rural areas, do not have the numbers to provide a physics and chemistry class but there is a physics and chemistry, known as phys-chem, course as part of the leaving certificate which 500 or 600 students do each year. It is vitally important for small schools and for DEIS schools which could not put on a physics or chemistry course. Quite rightly at the moment, we are rewriting specifications in physics, chemistry and biology. We have recently done it in agricultural science, in applied maths and in computer science. I have been asking and I am at a loss to know if the phys-chem course will continue and will it be updated. For those small schools, it is a lifeline.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank all the witnesses.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I thank everyone who has come before the committee this morning and made the trip. It is a lovely sunny morning here. It is great to have their input into why and how we promote STEM subjects. My background is that I worked in Science Foundation Ireland, SFI, for a while so was involved a bit with the discover science programmes. At that time, SFI was doing research into why more girls were not taking up STEM subjects and asking what the reason was and if there was something that was not being thought about. It conducted a survey and did research into this. One of the points I took away from the report and what it came back to for me, was that the key thing for young girls was a role model. This could be someone they knew, whether it was their mum, an aunt, an older sister, or someone in either their family or friend circle who they could point to as someone who had done this. It could be someone who had gone on to study physics, become a chemist, work in the labs in a hospital or otherwise use it in her day-to-day job.

STEM subjects can be used in so many different ways. If I asked each one of the witnesses to list their careers, we would be here for a while. You could think of everything and anything and also things you would never even think of. I might do that at the end of the meeting if we have time. I might ask each of the witnesses to think of two careers they would never associate with STEM subjects or give me their ideas on that. The role model importance knocked me for six a little bit. We talk about all of these things such as investment which is crucial and bringing down class sizes and how it is always more expensive, especially at third level, in science and engineering because of all the equipment costs and the lab space. If someone is doing history or French in college, which is what I did, a huge amount of equipment is not needed to be able to do their research or study. We look at all of these things that we need to put in place, especially with a rising population, but I am also thinking about that one point; that it is the role model within the family circle that is important. How do we break into that and make an impact on young women? They are not looking to someone on "Dancing with the Stars" or a real celebrity. They are looking to someone they know who comes from the same place as them who has done something in this area. They can then see themselves in that position. That it is what I look to, particularly because I come from a more regional area. We have some excellent schools. I know schools were mentioned here. We actually got an opportunity with the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, to visit some of the schools in Roscommon town. We went to the Convent of Mercy Roscommon and they have a design lab. I was looking it up here again. This is one of the girls' schools in Roscommon - I acknowledge many more schools are co-educational now - but that school actually have a design lab and all the girls in there were learning things like woodwork and on the computer-aided design, CAD, tech side of things. It was really impressive. I had not known about it. I remember thinking that our schools, particularly our secondary schools, are really doing much to equip our students for the future. Those are just a few thoughts I had.

My question to the witnesses is around that role model aspect. Do they have any ideas around this? I understand the elements around investment and all of this but is there anything around role models, particularly, say, at national school, secondary school and maybe at third level? I direct that question to the representatives from the INTO, and to those in the secondary level space, as well as to Ms O’Reilly in term of third level and in our colleges. I point to another aspect related to our engineering courses. I worked in the research office in the University of Galway. In the science and engineering space, departments look to make sure their PhD teams and the teams working with principal investigators are balanced. Sometimes they take a lot of students from abroad, maybe because there are not as many students doing those subjects here locally in Ireland. The challenge we have is bringing that excellence and cultivating it indigenously as well. We have obviously great talent that comes from abroad as well. Those are a couple of thoughts. I thank the witnesses for their submissions. For the first of my actual questions, I ask the witnesses if anything comes to mind about the two career choices people would never think of for someone doing a STEM course - either in physics, biology, chemistry, or engineering. Second, what other elements could we do around that role model space to support teachers, parents, or parents' associations? I mention bringing students into third level institutions to visit our labs funded by the SFI and the Irish Research Council, IRC. I know an awful lot of the students go out to schools. Is there something else the witnesses think we could be doing in that particular space? I invite whoever would like to comment to please do so.

Ms Máirín Ní Chéileachair

I think of physics and snooker players actually-----

Senator Aisling Dolan

Excellent. I will have to ask for some tips.

Ms Máirín Ní Chéileachair

-----and soccer players.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I love it. That is good.

Ms Máirín Ní Chéileachair

Regarding the role model piece, we spoke earlier about business in the community and links with industry. I know business in the community exists as a concept but it needs to be more centralised.

We need to look at it on a much wider scale with engagement from a very young age, from early childhood at primary school. A number of years ago the Department of Education put in place some protocols with technology companies engaging with schools but it was at a very basic level. We need to look at that and to encourage all students to see women, be they snooker players or soccer players, in their jobs and we would not normally think about how STEM comes into jobs. I was privileged to engage in an NCCA consultation with children on STEM before Christmas and their perceptions were fascinating. They were very broad-minded in their concept of STEM.

The Senator talked about labs and the design lab. As part of our submission, we have talked about creative spaces in schools. Every school can have a lab. We need to look at providing more creative and open learning spaces. For so long in this country we have been focused on the provision of classroom accommodation only. We have travelled to other countries where they have very creative construction of their schools which allows for much more flexible use. Particularly a primary level and during early childhood that would give great possibilities from the point of view of STEM.

We also need the development of outdoor spaces. Many of our schools have outdoor space but it needs to be developed and looked at from a much more creative and educational point of view, particularly schools which do not have access to a large amount of space, such as inner-city schools which can be a bit of a concrete jungle. We need to look at how those spaces can be developed. Trinity College is only down the road. It has done fabulous things with beehives on roofs and roof gardens. Why can we not think like that in our schools? We need to be much more creative about our spaces, which would probably take less investment than we think would be required.

Senator Aisling Dolan

That is absolutely true. What is really nice about those design lab spaces is being able to walk about rather than having to sit down in a chair. Ideas can come to people as they move around the space.

Ms Máirín Ní Chéileachair

It allows collaboration and co-operation to happen. In any workplace, we bounce ideas off each other. It gives the pupils from a very young age those skills in teamwork and bouncing ideas off each other. It is highly beneficial.

Senator Aisling Dolan

As Ms Ní Chéileachair says, it does not take too much. The Creagh National School in Ballinasloe is using all its outdoor space. It is doing gardening with vegetable patches and all of this.

Ms Máirín Ní Chéileachair

That is all STEM. There is considerable development particularly post the Covid pandemic of outdoor classrooms in many schools and we should be encouraging that.

Senator Aisling Dolan

And umbrellas.

Mr. David Duffy

I am probably the wrong person to ask about STEM careers and STEM subjects because my wife is a scientist in a diagnostic lab in a hospital.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Mr. Duffy already has a role model in the family.

Mr. David Duffy

A career we might not associate with STEM is in the area of construction studies, design, construction graphics and that sort of thing. Given the requirement for retrofitting and so on, apprenticeships in those areas are obviously incredibly important.

Regarding role models, we could certainly benefit from more diversity in the teaching profession. A number of colleagues in higher education institutions along the west coast have done a lot of work on this. The big issue probably relates to the opportunity and financial cost after a longer period of initial teacher education. In many cases it can take six years. Someone contemplating spending six years in college studying to be a teacher needs to have quite a bit of social capital and financial capital to begin with. That would help in getting a more diverse teaching profession.

Ms Ní Chéileachair rightly spoke about outdoor classrooms and so on. There are some really useful initiatives happening and I know last week's hearings looked at them in detail. It would be worth the committee's time to look at the North East Further & Higher Education Alliance initiative. It is a collaboration between the Dundalk Institute of Technology, the Louth and Meath Education and Training Board and a number of local businesses.

Many of the institutions in line with businesses in the area do a lot of QQI level 5 for students whose maths ability would not be great and in order to do a STEM subject at higher or further education they might need to do that. I note this week is Engineer's Week. However, I sound a note of caution. While supports from businesses are very valuable and important, we tend to find that it is great if the school or college is located close to a multinational company, for example. However, for a small institution and a rural area it is not always as simple. If the economy is not doing as well as it has been recently, those supports for educational institutions are often the first ones businesses cut. I absolutely understand why they do that, but if we are to mainstream something it needs to be available all the time to everybody.

Ms Caitlin Faye Maniti

I found that a hairdresser for chemistry-----

Senator Aisling Dolan

Great.

Ms Caitlin Faye Maniti

In terms of the Senator's question about role models, we have what I would call alarming anecdotal detail from our consultations. I welcome her point about studying STEM young because people are not born with the sexism and discrimination we have seen; it is taught. It is an environment that is fostered in the school system. I take the Senator's point on that.

Another way they can continue to pursue it would be in the practicals and the continuous assessment. They can take ownership of the subject and put it into their day-to-day lives as something that interests them. They can also take it with them and use it in a way they see fit. With the opportunities to be innovative and creative and have peer-to-peer collaboration, the ISSU always recommends continuous assessment. We are always advocating for students on that front.

The BT Young Scientist Exhibition and Skyfest represent non-educational forms of learning of STEM. In particular the transition year is great for seeing outside the school area and identifying the potential for a particular STEM subject. Those are the kinds of things.

Senator Aisling Dolan

It is about ambition and striving hard.

Ms Moira Leydon

The Senator has asked a very good question and all of us want to come in and give our linsights. I am conscious that the Chair is under pressure of time. I want to mention two things that are slightly off the point but are important. For me, the two are the climate activist and the farmer. When we think of a farmer, we think of a good old practical fellow or woman, increasingly - I am thinking of the new leader of the Social Democrats. We do not think of somebody who is enculturated in a science education. When we think of a climate activist, we think of somebody who is politically active. The fundamentals of farming and climate change are deeply scientific. I think there is a kind of culture change around the way we talk about STEM as if it is something out there and not integrated with our lives.

It is really important for this committee and the national report on the implementation plan to focus on gender uptake. At our peril we would omit to look at ethnic and socioeconomic uptake. These are very profound structural and systemic sources of inequality in society. I would be concerned that our policy is exclusively framed on gender. We need to remember we have those other two categories which also need to be looked at.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Ms Leydon is absolutely right. That is where the expansion of DEIS hopefully to nearly one in four schools and maybe expansion to post primary as well will be crucial.

Ms Beth O'Reilly

I studied music technology for my leaving cert. That was the only STEM with which I engaged.

If we want to look at increasing the number of role models people have, whether that is on a gender or socio-economic basis, the way to do that is by bringing the learning of STEM back into our communities. Not everybody needs to achieve a PhD on a STEM course. There should be a great amount of focus on bringing STEM into our further education, FE, institutions and ensuring that community-based learning around STEM subjects is focused on. One should not have to go into a QQI level 8 degree to engage with it. STEM can be learned at all levels. That means it should be looked at in a lifelong learning perspective and not just at primary, post-primary and degree levels.

We should have a significant focus within FE on the specific skills in which we are facing shortages in employment, and also on emerging skills. We need to look at smaller courses for things like artificial intelligence and cybersecurity so that those skills can be brought into our local communities in order to create more role models in that way.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I agree completely. It is about connected living. Lifelong learning is one of the areas where Ireland could rank a great deal higher. I thank Ms O’Reilly and everybody else in attendance.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

My apologies for being late as another committee meeting was on at the same time. I have some brief questions and I would prefer to hear the answers from our guests rather than listening to me rambling on. Having worked as a teacher in a DEIS school for 15 years, I would be particularly interested in opening this question to anybody who might wish to answer it: what measures we are taking to enhance STEM subjects at DEIS school level? As I have said, I taught in a DEIS school for 15 years. As time has gone on, there has been more emphasis on science and maths, in particular. To be fair, the schools I have been involved in have always had a great relationship with industry located nearby. They have had engineers, scientists and so on coming in and giving presentations to students and actively engaging with them. Is there anything we can do in particular to enhance STEM subjects at DEIS level?

Mr. David Duffy

I thank the Deputy for the question. For small, rural and DEIS schools, in particular, this area presents real difficulties. The first issue is around class size, which is smaller in DEIS schools than in other schools. Across the board, however, we need to be reducing this size further. There is also the issue of a maintenance grant for high-cost subjects, which are often in the STEM area. There is also the question of additional guidance. The Deputy will know as well as I do that students in DEIS schools are particularly dependent on the guidance counsellor to provide advice around possible careers. There is also the issue around access to labs and to the physics-chemistry course. I would also say that DEIS schools are somewhat limited in the number of subjects they might be able to provide.

The issue of curricular concession for new subjects would be very important so that we are not using resources from existing subjects and then trying to bring in new subjects. If we genuinely want all schools, in particular DEIS schools and small rural schools, to be able to teach things like politics and society, computer science, climate action and sustainable development, drama, film and theatre, etc., as well as a whole range of new subjects, we need to ensure those curricular concessions are available.

Ms Moira Leydon

The whole area of guidance needs to be revisited. I am particularly impressed by the manner in which the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science has moved by bringing the further education programmes into the CAO system and significantly expanding the range of programmes there. Ms O’Reilly is quite correct when she says that we do not need to be instilling in all of our school leavers the idea that they have to go on to a degree programme in order to be able to learn something more about an area they are interested in. We need the FE space which, in the past two years, has become dramatically inclusive. In the local area where I live in County Meath, some of the programmes are amazing with regard to the changes that are taking place. I reiterate Mr. Duffy’s point that unless we have adequate guidance counselling services in schools, and we are upskilling the people in those roles, we are not going to reap the potential of this system change at further education. I will leave it with that simple message.

Ms Máirín Ní Chéileachair

I will bring this question back to primary level, where DEIS has served us very well. Recent studies, in the past year in particular, have shown the success of DEIS.

I acknowledge that there has been a great focus on literacy and numeracy in DEIS schools and this is an opportune time now to widen that perspective. We are consulting at the moment on a literacy, numeracy and digital literacy strategy. That is one of the timely opportunities to focus on the digital literacy skills in all schools but also in DEIS schools.

The development of the new primary school curriculum will also help with the subject specifications as they will be configured. We can now look at a focus, which will probably be wider than it has been heretofore, especially with STEM. Rather than having just a mathematics curriculum, we can have a mathematics and STEM curriculum in the junior classes and a STEM curriculum in the senior classes in primary school.

I worked for many years in Tallaght and, in respect of DEIS schools, not only does industry need to engage with the DEIS school communities but third level also needs to do so. For many years, pupils from Tallaght were not aware that there was a college down the road and across from The Square. Most of the students in IT Tallaght, as it was at the time, were from outside of the Tallaght area. That engagement needs to happen. Fourth class level is a very influential stage for primary school pupils where they need to see the possibilities for further education, be it academic or apprenticeship, at that stage. Transition or fifth year is too late.

Mr. David Duffy

On the question of students from DEIS schools progressing to further and higher education, those routes and transitions are crucially important. The data show very clearly that the institute of technology and technological university sectors have a much higher proportion of flexible learners and flexible routes, such as students who depend on Student Universal Support Ireland grants, than the traditional universities. In respect of the institutes of technology, the technological universities and indeed the FE colleges, that area also needs funding and support.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

It is probably the typical teacher in me where I ask that we might bring it back to the schools. I have had the privilege of serving on about five or six boards of management at this stage at primary level and, as I have said, I was a second level teacher. I have seen the inside of a fair number of schools. Thankfully, none of them will be able to identify themselves from what I am about to say about basic things like the condition of labs. I was in a school recently where the labs were the same as they were 20 years ago for me in the late 1990s or the early 2000s. I had the privilege to teach in schools with brand-new extensions and state-of-the-art facilities. I would be particularly interested to ask for the witnesses' views on the differences between primary level and secondary level. Can they comment on that briefly, please?

Ms Máirín Ní Chéileachair

We said earlier that we would be hard-pressed to find a science lab in a primary school. We need to look at how we design learning spaces. We spoke earlier about creative multipurpose spaces, which are sadly lacking in our schools at primary level. We are very good at providing classroom accommodation and perhaps, if one is lucky, God save us, a halla. Aside from that, there are no flexible learning areas in our schools which can be used for creative learning, and for things that require movement and collaboration. Classrooms, to a certain extent, can be used for these purposes but there needs to be a look at creative indoor and outdoor spaces. I realise that I am repeating myself but it is very important that these flexible spaces are made available at a very basic level, even somewhere where infants and early learners can go to play and engage with sand, water and all of those things which develop early STEM skills, such as exploration, manipulation of materials, playing with concrete materials, using their hands and working together in teams. Sometimes traditional classroom spaces do not allow for that so we need to look at the development of creative spaces and outdoor learning spaces.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

The irony of what Ms Ní Chéileachair is saying is not lost on me because I have two children at preschool at the moment and they are doing all of those things. It does not make sense that it is not being done-----

Ms Máirín Ní Chéileachair

And with much smaller numbers than one will find in a primary school classroom.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I will ask a final question. We need to move more towards the student experience. Returning to my own teaching career, certain schools did tasters.

Particularly in first year when kids came in, they did a taster programme up to Christmas and it gave them the benefit of discerning whether they wanted to do something on the arts and social sciences side versus the scientific side. Are there any comments on tasters and trial subjects?

Ms Caitlin Faye Maniti

Taster subjects are something we highly recommend. I did taster subjects for a different school where there is a competition for that. I explored many other subjects and felt it was very helpful in my choice of subjects. I was able to find what I was interested in. A lot of students find taster subjects really helpful for them. That would be something I would recommend and ISSU would recommend as well when it comes to STEM subjects.

On the quality of the laboratory, machinery or resources in DEIS schools, I would bring it back to broadband specifically. There is a massive gap that we saw during Covid when the learning and teaching experience went to online learning in an innovative way. Those students from DEIS schools or rural or disadvantaged areas were left behind in their education for those two years during Covid. That is something I really want to highlight.

Mr. Frank Jones

On the issue of taster and tester subjects, it ties in well with resources. I know from personal experience of first year engineering in the University of Limerick that there were several hundred of us in first year maths. For those of us who struggled with maths it was not the way to do it. It is about the resources. The idea of having tasters is to create an interest in the subject or see if there is an interest in the subject. It is not to turn somebody completely off the subject. It needs to be handled right and resourced. A lot of the issues we raise come back to resourcing.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy O'Sullivan took my question with regard to the students, as did the Senator. I have a question for the TUI and ASTI. I asked our other witness earlier about transition year. Some schools are absolutely fantastic at getting the best out of transition year students, while other schools are not as good. We have all seen different experiences in different schools around the country. Often it depends on the teacher. I find that in a lot of schools, if there is a young, dynamic teacher leading it, they will get the best out of the transition year students. How best can we use transition year to invest in and promote STEM subjects going forward?

Ms Moira Leydon

The Cathaoirleach is right about the variable quality of the transition year programme across the sector. There have not been too many evaluation reports but that is one of the common conclusions of the departmental evaluation reports. The solution to that is twofold. First, a complete review of the transition year programme, the curriculum content, is being undertaken now by the NCCA. It will bring a degree of standardisation without it becoming uniform. One of the strengths of transition year is that schools can use it to address some of the learning challenges or other types of challenges in the school community. That is good. I should not be saying this in a way, but we do have an inspectorate whose job is to make sure that the programmes are being delivered in the fashion which is required.

On how we can improve things, I will sound like a broken record on this. Schools get additional teacher allocation in terms of transition year programmes but they do not necessarily get any significant additional funding on which to deliver them. If we are talking about having more innovative transition year programmes with perhaps more CoderDojo brought in, or digital literacy skills, all of that, we are going to have to upskill the teachers, bring in concessionary teachers, pay for external services to come in or a combination of all three.

If we are talking about making STEM a more central feature in transition year, and I do not mean STEM in terms of subject base because transition year is not about a subject-based curriculum, it must be dynamic and hands-on. There must be trips to the factory, the farm or whatever. That all costs money and of course money is something schools do not have. To recapitulate, number on,e the new programme will set a kind of new standard. Number two, we need to give funding to schools, a capitation grant so to speak, to enable them to put in place innovative programmes. Number three, we really need to give teachers the support so they understand and feel competent and confident enough that they can deliver a STEM dimension throughout all the transition year activities.

Mr. David Duffy

I thank the Chair for the question. Like my colleagues from the ASTI and indeed my colleagues from the NAPD earlier, I will make reference to the really good work that is happening at NCCA at the moment around the possibility of a revised programme statement for transition year. The bit that is trying to be balanced there is between national needs and local needs. One of the great strengths of transition year is trying to balance both of those. The biggest issue in terms of provision, whether it be STEM subjects in transition or transition year generally, is around equity. Two percent of schools do not provide transition year at all and it is predominantly small schools and DEIS schools that cannot do it. My colleagues from the ASTI have said quite rightly that there is a resourcing issue here. It is possibly around extra resources being provided. I also say that the biggest single difference between transition year programmes in schools across the country is that the opportunities available to a transition year programme in a fee-charging school in a large urban area and a transition year programme in a small DEIS school in a rural area are utterly different. If we want genuine equity across the system we need to make sure we provide the resources need to the DEIS schools, rural schools, and small schools in order that they can provide a transition year programme in the same way as possibly a fee-charging school that has the resources to be able to do. I do not just mean financial resources but the social capital that comes with different types of schools.

An Cathaoirleach

Did Ms Ní Chéileachair say she worked at a DEIS school earlier on?

Ms Máirín Ní Chéileachair

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Totally accidentally, my three kids go to the local primary school in Enniscorthy town. It is the biggest primary school outside of Dublin with almost 1,000 pupils and it is a DEIS school. It is absolutely fantastic and no matter what we look for or what backup we look for, it is there. Of course they are always looking for more, that is the way it is and I applaud the teacher and the principal for doing that. How do we promote a primary education? I often find DEIS schools and specifically large town schools to be at a disadvantage when it comes to STEM in getting the best from pupils who might not get the encouragement from home or whatever the story is. If you are out in the middle of the country in a rural school, it is often easier. I hope my point is understood.

Ms Máirín Ní Chéileachair

I know where the Cathaoirleach is coming from and we had this conversation recently.

An Cathaoirleach

How do we get STEM and promote STEM in those larger schools and the DEIS schools, which may be at a disadvantage?

Ms Máirín Ní Chéileachair

I think a comprehensive CPD programme for teachers across all schools is where to start. We also need to look at resources. We had a conversation on some of the very large urban DEIS schools. A lot of them are in very old building stock where it is extremely difficult to provide non-traditional teaching experiences because of the size of the classrooms, the shape of the school and even the way the corridors work. We need to examine the provision of extra spaces in these schools. We are doing this at the moment for special education and I think we should be looking at it for STEM as well. It should be integrated into the redevelopment of any school building that if we are focusing on STEM, that needs to be brought into account in the design of schools and the design of the environment, including the physical environment both inside and outside the school. It is an opportune time to focus on CPD for teachers as well with the development of our new primary school curriculum. On teacher awareness, DEIS schools are also particularly good at working with pupils. I suggest the provision of home-school liaison to all DEIS schools, as not all DEIS schools have it.

Looking at rural DEIS and perhaps other categories of school, the connection between home and school needs to be fostered. Raising parental awareness is an important factor, as is focusing on people in the community who have succeeded and who are working locally, such as the hairdressers with the chemistry that Ms Maniti spoke about. There needs to be a more integrated society-wide approach that is not just in schools. We need to go outside the school gates when we promote this, particularly in certain communities.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Ní Chéileachair. On the challenges around availability of specific teaching posts, specifically in physics and science subjects that has come up over the last couple of weeks, when a person is looking at the attractiveness of a teaching career versus a career in the private sector, I presume the private sector is winning out. There are advantages and disadvantages of going into teaching but how does Mr. Jones find this at the moment in his position?

Mr. Frank Jones

Unfortunately we do not have the full picture. It was agreed several years ago that the Higher Education Authority, HEA would conduct a study to see where STEM graduates were going. That has not happened yet. For the progression for those with STEM qualifications leaving further and higher education it is obvious there is more quality employment in the private sector right now. As I said earlier, a lot of graduates still remain in the sector despite the challenges of short fixed-term contracts and precarious employment. They stay because of the love of the sport. That is not good enough. That was the theme of our submission; that it is not good enough that people are staying at their own cost and we hope this changes on foot of the work of this committee and of various other projects and pieces of work we are engaged in. It is not as bad as it would be, were people just looking after themselves and their short-term interests and getting the first permanent contract they could get. I know the private sector is coming in and trying to recruit a lot, all and sundry. They come to teacher training colleges to recruit. However we are still managing to maintain a level of graduates going into academia despite these challenges.

An Cathaoirleach

I have questions for Ms Maniti and Ms O'Reilly about the male domination of the uptake in STEM subjects. Is the trend of male domination of teaching STEM subjects going further after qualification? In its opening statement, the ISSU stated there are fewer female students taking up STEM subjects in secondary schools. As for female teachers qualifying as STEM teachers, whether it be in mathematics, technology or engineering, are many of their peers saying they will teach mathematics, engineering, metalwork, woodwork or whatever?

Ms Caitlin Faye Maniti

The simple answer to that is "No". If anything, any of my peers who would like to teach would like to teach English, home economics or those stereotypical subjects where females are more attracted to teaching, because they were not in an environment where they were encouraged to learn and teach a STEM subject. There is a survey from iWish, an organisation that encourages females to take up more STEM subjects, which found that 43% of female students who are in co-educational schools are more likely to drop out of their STEM subject in the senior cycle. The Cathaoirleach said that teachers have influence and if there was a female teacher teaching STEM subjects, I would say they would be more aware of the biases surrounding females who do take these STEM subjects and of that environment.

My colleague in the USI stated that if you cannot see it, you cannot be it. Having a role model and everyone singing off the same hymn sheet is important to see.

An Cathaoirleach

Did Ms O'Reilly find the same?

Ms Beth O'Reilly

Yes. From a third level perspective, I do not know a lot of people who went into STEM-focused degree courses with the aim of qualifying as a teacher. It is mainly to work in the industry. That is something we are seeing across the board. More and more people are doing a degree as a stepping stone to getting a career and well-paid job. We are in danger of seeing that, more and more, well-paid jobs are outside of Ireland. We have an amazing higher education system and that is why so many international students come here for STEM courses. The problem is that once they have the qualification, there is a significant amount of money to be made off the island. We are seeing a large number of people who are extremely qualified emigrating as a result of the high cost of living here and the better opportunities elsewhere. It is disappointing.

An Cathaoirleach

I spoke to someone yesterday who spent the past two years in Australia and came home because of the cost of living, yet there is a huge exodus of young people from here to Australia because of the cost of living here.

I thank the witnesses for their attendance today and for their extremely beneficial contributions, which will feed into the committee's ongoing work on STEM. I also thank them for their detailed opening statements and replies to members.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.22 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 21 March 2023.