Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 21 Mar 2023

The Future of STEM in Irish Education: Discussion (Resumed)

An Cathaoirleach

The witnesses are probably aware that the committee will publish the opening statements on its website following the meeting.

Before we begin, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the Chair to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with this direction. Timers are located under the screens. We will probably have more committee members coming in, as we also have another session after this one. Mr. Duffy has five minutes. He will be followed by Mr. Convey and Mr. Jones.

Mr. Ciarán Duffy

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus leis na comhaltaí as an gcuireadh a bheith anseo. I thank members for the opportunity to speak with them today. The Irish Mathematics Teachers Association, IMTA, welcomes the chance to put forward the views of our members, who have serious concerns about recent developments in the direction of mathematics pedagogy. We believe that before we can adequately address the future of science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, in Irish education, we need to address the present. We also believe there are several small things that can be done to address these concerns. The IMTA is an extremely open organisation that benefits from rigorous discussion and debate. Our views are backed up by statistics, research and anecdotal evidence. Mathematics teachers in this country care deeply about their subject and know how crucial it is to the continuing development of a strong, vibrant, educated workforce and we are acutely aware of its importance in the realm of STEM subjects. Mathematics teachers, in the main, embrace change well and are open to reflecting on their teaching practice and embracing new approaches, ideas, technologies and resources. Mathematics teachers rowed in behind changes to the mathematics syllabi under the umbrella of project maths, for example. Mathematics teachers embraced the use of digital technologies in their classrooms for pedagogical purposes long before Covid made them necessary. The IMTA believes that STEM education is essential for the future of our country, as I am sure all in this room do, and we are committed to playing our part in ensuring that Irish students have access to the highest quality STEM education possible. Given that mathematics education is our primary area of concern and the basic importance of mathematics in STEM, our submission primarily focuses on mathematics education. Our submission includes a range of recommendations aimed at improving the teaching and learning of mathematics in post-primary education. We have focused on five key areas related to mathematics education, namely, junior cycle mathematics; leaving certificate mathematics; teacher education; female participation in STEM; and mathematics at primary level.

Regarding junior cycle maths, the IMTA expresses concerns over the revised junior cycle specification, which our members believe is too long and cannot be adequately delivered due to decreased class contact time in all schools. The IMTA also notes a demotion in the importance of fully understanding the topic of algebra under the new specification and calls for the reintroduction of a second exam paper, especially at higher level, with adequate choice in all papers. Furthermore, the removal of the foundation level mathematics course and examination at junior cycle is a matter of grave concern for IMTA members. We believe it has adversely affected the education of students who find numeracy and literacy challenging.

On classroom-based assessments, the IMTA suggests only one assessment, potentially in the area of statistics, should be completed in a co-ordinated and timetabled fashion with other subject areas rather than the current nine assessments students must complete in both second and third years.

We are also concerned that the gap between junior cycle and leaving certificate maths at all levels is huge. Students who do not do transition year in their schools are particularly disadvantaged by this. As there is not sufficient time at junior cycle level to drill down into the skills required and to develop the understanding needed of topics, especially in algebra, the jump to leaving certificate is massive and, we believe, is having a detrimental effect on our students and standards in general.

In the case of leaving certificate maths, the IMTA believes that the syllabus is too long to be completed in the allocated time and that some elements of choice must be introduced into exam papers. Additionally, we call for a review of the impact of bonus points for higher level maths.

The IMTA is concerned about the shortage of qualified maths teachers in Ireland and recommends incentivising teachers through financial arrangements. We also suggest ring-fencing places for STEM education courses and providing more support to newly qualified teachers. The IMTA calls for more investment in, and resources for, encouraging female participation in STEM subjects in general, and we recommend launching a large-scale advertisement campaign to attract more women to the profession.

We are calling for the reintroduction of the examination at foundation level maths at junior cycle, to support the thousands of students for whom the level 2 learning programme, L2LP, is not accessible and who find the level of literacy and numeracy too difficult. There must be an element of choice in mathematics exam papers at all levels to help reduce the huge levels of anxiety felt by many of our students.

A second exam paper at junior cycle level should be reintroduced, again with choice on papers. We call for a rigorous, independent, academic review of the current junior cycle before any work is done on reforming the leaving certificate or senior cycle. The benefits of classroom-based assessments, CBAs, while useful in many of our subjects, are questionable in maths and the voice of teachers on this issue must be listened to. In a recent survey, 98% of our members called for, at most, one CBA in maths to be done, while questioning the use of CBAs in general.

We believe the length of the course at junior cycle and leaving certificate is too long and impossible to deliver adequately in the time given to maths. A review of the impact of bonus points at leaving certificate higher level maths must be carried out.

If implemented, we believe our recommendations can help to ensure Ireland remains a world leader in STEM education and our students are equipped with the knowledge, skills, and confidence they need to succeed in the 21st century economy and, more important, to give them a love of learning in what is a beautiful subject with plenty of scope to marry both real world applications and the more abstract element of mathematics.

Mr. Barry Convey

I thank the committee for the opportunity to appear before it and make this submission today. The Engineering Technology Teachers Association, ETTA, is a voluntary administered subject association. It is a teacher professional network representing teachers of engineering, technology, and design and communication graphics, DCG. The association was founded in 1983 by engineering teachers collectively to promote engineering in education in Ireland. As a teacher professional network, we support teachers by creating networking opportunities through training, upskilling and continuing professional development, CPD. We represent teachers through various committees and communicate with a wide range of agencies on their behalf.

My primary degree is a bachelor of materials in engineering and technology education. This qualifies me to teach engineering technology and DCG.

I have also completed the professional diploma in mathematics for teaching, which qualifies me to teach mathematics. I also have experience teaching science and mathematics. This leaves me in the unique position of being able to comment on all aspects of STEM education.

First of all, we acknowledge the work done by the Department of Education, the NCCA and others, in creating a more positive experience for students of STEM and also acknowledge Junior Cycle for Teachers, JCT, and the Professional Development Service for Teachers, PDST, in the efforts made in the provision of CPD for teachers and their continuing pedagogical support and resource creation. We would like to acknowledge the SEC for the progression of our subjects through the supreme quality of the examination papers, dynamic projects and assessment tasks, and specifically the support video and materials, which ensures accessibility to all our students.

We welcome the STEM Education Policy Statement 2017-2026, while acknowledging that progress has not been at the pace hoped for in the past few years, although we are buoyed at the pace at which things are beginning to take off in recent months. We also welcome the developments at junior cycle level, specifically in the development of the new specifications for engineering, applied technology and graphics. These developments have been acknowledged on the ground in schools, with a significant increase in participation rates in all these specifications.

In this arena, we in the ETTA find ourselves coming back to the question: "What is STEM?" While having conversations about STEM, the central pillars of technology and engineering - the "T" and "E" - are regularly absent from discussions. When primary students attend open nights in our post-primary schools, it quickly becomes apparent to our members that there is an absence of knowledge and awareness and a lack of full understanding of the breadth of STEM, in particular technology and engineering. This absence of knowledge and awareness is compounded by an apparent deficit in confidence of primary teachers to deliver an holistic understanding of STEM and its associated subjects to their students. We welcome the publication of the primary curriculum framework in recent days and how it intends help to address this deficit.

The parents of the current cohort of primary students experienced a fundamentally different primary education and they are, in large part, not cognisant of the direction post-primary subjects have taken at junior cycle. The new specifications of engineering, applied technology and graphics are fundamentally different from the syllabi they have replaced. We call for a national awareness campaign to promote STEM through emphasising the new specifications and the skill set associated with each specification. The purpose of this national campaign would be to standardise the information being delivered to primary school students across the country so that we can educate parents, teachers and students of the importance of STEM in the modern Irish context. This advertising campaign, supported in a meaningful way through resources and funding, along with a move to more co-ed schools, lends itself to levelling the playing field and improving access to STEM for all students.

What we feel is required is the sharing of information with all primary school teachers, all primary school parents and guardians, and all primary school students to inform them of what STEM is, the subjects associated with STEM, the skill sets developed by engaging with STEM and the career paths and progression opportunities available. This message needs to be consistently delivered through all radio stations, national media and social media, and it must feature prominently at key times of the year to ensure students are fully aware of the links between the STEM they have experienced in primary and how it will continue through post-primary education and into tertiary education.

The model created, currently being implemented by the Advanced Manufacturing Technology Centre of Excellence in the Louth and Meath Education and Training Board, LMETB, will deliver the required CPD for primary and post-primary educators to implement and embed a meaningful STEM framework. This model identifies skill deficits and allows for the scaffolded development of bespoke training programmes for teachers. AMTCE's focus is to create programmes for students which require teacher support, while upskilling teachers in the required areas of STEM. Through a variety of student-focused initiatives, a positive STEM experience is fostered and facilitates opportunities to increase the number of students experiencing STEM. We in the ETTA are already working closely with AMTCE to support the further development of these bespoke courses and initiatives, and we endeavour to lead best practice, nationally and internationally, into the future.

The ETTA welcomes professional conversations with any and all stakeholders to progress STEM and foster positive STEM experiences for as many students in our schools.

An Cathaoirleach

Well done and thank you, Mr. Convey.

Mr. Humphrey Jones

The Irish Science Teachers Association, ISTA, is very grateful for the opportunity to speak with the committee and the representatives from the Irish Maths Teachers Association, and the Engineering Technology Teachers Association today on the future of STEM education in Ireland.

Education in STEM plays a vital role in preparing Irish second-level students for the challenges of today's society. As our world becomes more technologically advanced, there is a growing need for a STEM-literate population that can contribute to innovation and problem-solving. The skills developed through STEM education are not only essential for success in traditional STEM careers but are also increasingly necessary in other fields such as healthcare, finance and even the arts.

Moreover, a STEM-literate population can help Ireland meet the challenges of the 21st century such as climate change, public health, clean water and food production and sustainable development. STEM education equips students with the tools to understand complex scientific and technological issues, as well as the skills to analyse data, develop evidence-based solutions and communicate their ideas effectively. Furthermore, STEM education encourages creativity and entrepreneurship, which are essential for Ireland's economic growth and development. In today's rapidly changing economy, innovative ideas and technological advancements are crucial for businesses to stay competitive. In addition, STEM education can help to address societal inequalities. Women and minorities are often under-represented in STEM fields and STEM education provides opportunities to address this imbalance by promoting diversity and inclusivity in STEM-related careers.

Earlier this month, the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, launched the second implementation plan for the STEM Education Policy Statement 2017-2026. The plan outlines the Government's commitment to promoting STEM education across all levels of education from early childhood to higher education. The policy statement highlights the importance of science education and the need to create a science curriculum that is relevant and engaging and promotes the development of critical thinking, problem solving, and scientific literacy skills. There is a commitment in the document to a continued review of STEM curriculum and assessments across all levels and to conduct research on identifying opportunities and barriers that currently exist.

It is the current view of the ISTA based on our own research and research commissioned by us as well as a review of international best practice that the current model of curriculum development and syllabus design does not meet the needs of teachers and their students and forms a significant barrier to the implementation of the STEM education plan.

It is imperative that the current flawed template of syllabus design be replaced with a template that reflects international best practice and where there is ample evidence that the template has been successfully implemented. The syllabus is the bedrock on which STEM education practice is built upon in schools and beyond. If this syllabus is not well constructed then successful implementation of the subject will not take place. Sadly, we have experienced the effects of a poorly constructed and vague syllabus on our students with the revised junior cycle science in 2016 and again with senior cycle agricultural science in 2019. The redevelopment of the senior cycle science curricula - biology, chemistry and physics - provides opportunities to address the issues with the design of these curricula.

In 2019,the ISTA published the report "Listening to the Voice of Science Teachers" after an extensive survey of our members - some 1,500 strong. This report highlighted the major problems encountered by science teachers arising out of their experience of teaching the junior cycle science syllabus. Among the problems highlighted was the lack of clarity on the depth of treatment of topics on the syllabus. It is simply not possible to compress an entire three-year science programme into 46 learning outcomes. The learning outcomes lacked clarity with teachers finding it difficult to agree on the depth of treatment required by the specification.

A second problem is inadequate training. Many teachers felt the training provided during the implementation of the new specification at the early stages in particular was not fit for purpose. Teachers were encouraged to “unpack” learning outcomes collaboratively but this further added to frustration as it was clear that the model lent itself to inconsistencies. A third problem identified was the lack of value placed on practical work. In the old junior certificate science syllabus, 35% of the total marks were awarded for laboratory practical work. The new 2016 syllabus has very few student experiments specified and no credit is given by the State Examinations Commission for student laboratory work as part of the final assessment of junior cycle science.

A fourth issue that arose with the implementation of the revised junior cycle science syllabus was the cut to the minimum teaching time from 240 hours to 200 hours. In reality, this means that in many schools, the time allocation for science was cut from five 40-minute periods to three periods. Fifth, there was concern that the standard of scientific knowledge required by the students was significantly lower than in the previous syllabus. Many felt the new course had "dumbed down" science.

The sixth issue is the wider gap between junior and senior cycle sciences. There is concern the gap between junior cycle science and leaving certificate biology, chemistry and physics has widened significantly since the introduction of the new junior cycle specification and this is principally down to the lowering of standards in science.

On senior cycle subject development, the learning outcomes model has also been used by the NCCA in the development of leaving certificate subjects such as computer science, my subject of agricultural science, and politics and society. Research has shown teachers have experienced similar problems to those encountered at junior cycle level, including a lack of clarity on the depth of treatment, lack of effective CPD, lack of clear guidance on the correct implementation of the syllabus, lack of timely sample examination papers and unexpected areas being examined on the final examination papers. STEM subjects are already perceived as difficult. We do not want to add to this perception by being forced to teach inadequate syllabi, with inadequate CPD training and support, as well as lack of alignment between examination papers and syllabi. Unless this problem is tackled and resolved, we will certainly see a decline in students opting to take STEM subjects at senior cycle.

The ISTA reiterates our commitment to supporting Ireland’s STEM education plan, but we feel the current syllabus design model is a significant barrier to achieving its ambitions goals. We would like the committee to reiterate that several provisions must be made for the successful implementation of STEM subjects. A new syllabus template needs to be developed for all syllabi at junior cycle and leaving certificate level. A full range of documentation must be available before implementation of the syllabi. This must include teacher guidelines, practical coursework guidelines, sample examination papers and sample marking schemes. We recommend an external, independent evaluation be carried out on the junior cycle framework and the leaving certificate subjects that have already been implemented using the same template. This external evaluation should be carried out by personnel from outside Ireland and by experts in curriculum design.

The ISTA wishes to once again express its sincere thanks to the committee for being allowed represent ourselves today.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Jones. Senator Dolan is first and will be followed by Deputy Conway-Walsh.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I thank our guests for coming in. It is great to hear feedback from our teachers on the ground about both the junior and senior cycles. They are bringing much experience to the committee and we very much appreciate it.

One of the key points I picked out from the three presentations was the need for an advertising campaign around supporting STEM. Mr. Duffy and Mr. Convey both highlighted the importance of a campaign that showcases how STEM can help or what it means for a career. The guests at our last meeting talked about careers people would never think would involve STEM but do. These included farming and extended to hairdressing, because of the chemical makeup of colours and things like that. It was very interesting to see STEM is part of every part of life and is not just out there on its own. It is about the idea that STEM is part of many things we do in our day-to-day activities. I understand what our guests mean about the idea of schools, and the Department and the State, trying to get that message out there. There may be an onus on us to bring in our partners in employment to emphasise the importance of STEM and get support around advertising it as well. It is key that children see they can achieve this. I have spoken before about the importance of role models. It is about children seeing they can achieve whatever role they decide to follow up on as a career.

Will our guests give me an example of what might be an effective way of encouraging primary school children to consider taking on science, physics or chemistry when they get to junior and senior cycle? What might that look like? Mr. Duffy and Mr. Convey may wish to respond to that.

Mr. Jones referenced the value of practical work and the gap between junior and senior cycles, which has been highlighted. I was not aware there was not as much of a weighting given to it. I see the value of practical work. Experiments are crucial. Is it that there has had to be a focus on other areas in the curriculum and that has taken away from the weighting given to practical work?

Does Mr. Convey have any other comments around the practical work? On the gap, what happens when students do not do transition year? I will put that question to Mr. Duffy as he brought it up as well if I am correct. I think he commented that if students do not do transition year they will be missing out. He might speak about the importance of transition year. My first question was for Mr. Convey on the promotion of STEM at junior level.

Mr. Barry Convey

I have three kids myself and one of them has completed her primary and post-primary education. I have a son who is currently going through the primary education system. It is a concern that there is not more of an emphasis on technology and engineering and probably science as well in the post-primary education system currently. There is a deficit in confidence among primary teachers in accessing the whole area of STEM and educating the students about what STEM is and what the STEM subjects are.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Maybe it is more about confidence. Previously we had Discover Primary and there was an opportunity through Science Foundation Ireland, SFI, for teachers to get experience in a lab for a week or two in summer. That programme was run previously with SFI. Is it more around confidence for primary-school teachers? Is that the key?

Mr. Barry Convey

I think so.

Senator Aisling Dolan

More so than an advertising campaign.

Mr. Barry Convey

An advertising campaign would address the attitudes towards STEM and inform both parents and primary-school teachers about what STEM is, what the STEM subjects are and the skill set developed by engaging with STEM. That needs to be rolled out across all curriculums in primary. There are examples such as the BBC Micro:bit and Microsoft MakeCode. Students are not being exposed to that at a young age when they are like sponges and when they can be influenced and given the opportunity to really become interested and develop a flair for the STEM subjects.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Things like Coder Dojo are not in every town but we would see them in some of the bigger towns and cities. Is Coder Dojo making an impact for young people as well?

Mr. Barry Convey

It is, and it is great to have the support of local industry and investment from local companies. However, that leads to an ad hoc approach to the delivery of STEM. It is not a nationwide, collaborative approach to delivering STEM to all of the students across the country. On our open nights we are seeing that students do not know what the STEM subjects are. We call upon the Department to conduct a national campaign to make sure all students are aware of what STEM is.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Okay. On confidence in primary-school teachers, is it okay to bring in Mr. Duffy and Mr. Jones? Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Ciarán Duffy

If I could add to that, I do think there is an issue about confidence among primary-school teachers but also about students' perceptions. When they get into second level, they already have this preconceived notion that STEM is difficult. We have to really look at where that is coming from. If I tell a taxi driver that I am a maths teacher, the response is "Oh God, I hate maths, I was useless at maths". It is like a national pastime. We are delighted celebrating how bad we were at maths. Nobody would ever say "I cannot read, I find it difficult to read". That is a huge shift in psychology that we need to make in this country. Maybe it is something we need to look at from primary school. We need to move away particularly from treating maths as a subject of being right and wrong, black and white. We need to promote the idea of students challenging themselves, trying and doing something instead of giving up just because they do not feel they can get all the way through to the final answer.

Senator Aisling Dolan

It is very true. There is a lot of value to be had. When taxi drivers are mapping their routes, the technology on the dashboard, where does that come from? It is just about showing that it is the bricks and mortar of how we make everything that we use around us. It is all down to science and STEM, and that love and passion of discovery. I very much agree.

I think we also had a question on practical work and the gap.

Mr. Humphrey Jones

On the practical work, one of the strengths of the new junior cycle specification is that there is an overarching strand, the nature of science, which has placed more emphasis on critical skills and experimental design. However, there is a real lack of specified practicals. While I am not trying to hark back or anything, the old course had a list of mandatory practical experiments that each student would complete over his or her three years. The idea was that it would develop certain critical skills that were necessary within science, be they practical laboratory skills using various pieces of equipment or just data analysis skills. A lack of a prescribed list within the learning outcomes means, first, that teachers have to come up with them. That is fine; it is a good challenge. It might mean that there are gaps among pupils within certain schools where a certain type of skill is not developed.

The Senator is right that everyone wants to do science and gets excited about doing science experiments. Although the good meaning behind the nature of science strand is to promote more experiments, it has meant that fewer experiments are being carried out in the classroom. This means that when students reach the leaving cert, they do not have some of the basic skills that are necessary for tackling a leaving cert chemistry, biology or physics course. That is certainly a concern. We would love to see some sort of reward for pupils for carrying out their work. In the old course, 35% of the overall junior cycle mark was for the practical course they carried out and 100% of their grade now is for an experiment. They have class-based assessments, CBAs, and one of those is an extended experimental design. However, it only tips the iceberg in terms of the kind of skills we would like to develop with junior cycle science.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I might bring it back as a question later if it cannot be answered now. Mr. Convey just mentioned that co-educational settings were really important for STEM. In my own area two separate schools are considering amalgamation. I am just curious about the comment he made.

Mr. Barry Convey

I mentioned that in my opening comments. Up to now there has been a disparity in access to subjects like engineering and technology. The Department introduced technology as a cheaper version of offering STEM to all-female schools. As a result of that they are not getting the opportunity to access engineering. In some regions, female students do not have the opportunity to pick a school that they want to go to that offers engineering as a subject. This is a really unique opportunity for the Department of Education to fully support STEM in providing financial access to schools to encourage them. Schools should be able to kit out a full engineering room and that engineering room will allow teachers to teach engineering or technology. It does not give the opportunity the other way around: a technology room does not facilitate the teaching of engineering. With the review of senior cycle coming, this provides a unique opportunity for the Department to really support the development of STEM in post-primary settings through introducing the subject.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Conway-Walsh, followed by Senator Pauline O'Reilly who is taking Deputy Ó Cathasaigh's slot.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank all the witnesses for sharing their expertise. This has been a really valuable session. It indicates that we ignore this at our peril. I am seriously concerned about some of the stuff that has been brought forward here but it is important to name it. The headlines will indicate that we embrace STEM, and we do this and we do that. However, some very fundamental aspects of the system obviously need to be fixed, not only because of the enormous pressure that it is putting on students, but in terms of our competitiveness, economy, problem solving, health, climate change and so many other areas. People need to sit up and listen to what the witnesses have said here this morning. I thank them for that.

Can IMTA expand on why the removal of foundation-level maths has adversely affected students who find literacy and numeracy challenging? We have been told it is a grave concern. I will ask a few questions together. There was a recommendation to incentivise teachers, through financial arrangements, to encourage more towards maths to fill the current shortage. How could this be done in a manner that is equitable to teachers of other subjects? Are there any other incentives that could be used?

I also want to ask about artificial intelligence, AI, and the delivery of STEM and what it might mean. What about regional disparities and international competitiveness in STEM and advancements in STEM?

Mr. Ciarán Duffy

At junior cycle, we have a level 2 learning programme which meets the needs of students who are at a particular threshold of education and cannot access much of the literacy and numeracy that the maths exams require at level 3. What has happened is the previous foundation level junior certificate exam has been morphed with the previous junior certificate ordinary level exam. Students who do not meet the threshold for accessing the level 2 programme are now being made to do what is an ordinary level exam paper. There was a foundation level course and exam paper for them which was perfect for their needs and gave them a sense of achievement and success. Now they are accessing a mathematics exam that is riddled with literacy, left right and centre. There is no such thing as a straightforward mathematics question anymore. Everything has to have a real-world context, scenario or situation. While that is fantastic for very many of our students, there is an awful lot that is beyond the realms of the educational capacity of some of those students at this stage of their lives and of their educational journey. In a recent survey, 83% of IMTA members agreed or strongly agreed with the reintroduction of the foundation level maths course. It is something we are calling for immediately.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Who would make that decision to reintroduce it?

Mr. Ciarán Duffy

It would have to be done by the NCCA. It would be the NCCA and the SEC, I imagine.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

What about incentivising teachers?

Mr. Ciarán Duffy

I also mentioned that. Separate from that, we need to look at the idea of who is accessing places in our professional masters in education, PME, courses. When I did my equivalent to the PME, which was not today nor yesterday and which was the higher diploma in education, HDip Ed, you just applied based on the results you had got the previous year in your exams. It was nothing to do with the subject you were studying or the subject in which you were hoping to become qualified as a teacher. I wonder if that is still the situation. If so, then we might look at a way of ring-fencing the subject areas that our prospective PME students, as opposed to those doing concurrent degrees, will be doing for their post-graduate qualifications and see if we are meeting the subject requirements where we have gaps in second level schools. Might we be turning away potential maths and science teachers without realising what their skillsets are?

There are examples of financial incentives elsewhere. For example, in London some people receive additional stipends by virtue of the subjects they teach or by virtue of their working in inner cities or large urban areas. We already have examples where we give additional stipends to those working in Gaeltacht regions. You could argue there is already a disparity between people who are already in the same system. I do not see why we could not investigate the idea of financially supporting, whether by reducing or removing fees or some sort of tax incentives, for those who want to move into the area of STEM education.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Has the association discussed that with the unions at all?

Mr. Ciarán Duffy

No, not to my knowledge anyway.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I will come back in again on other things. I am conscious others are waiting.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank everyone for their contributions. There is a lot there and it is quite specific, which is good for us when we are putting our report together.

It could be divided into two, in the sense that one is about access to STEM subjects and then the second bit is about the issues around their delivery in schools. In terms of the access piece, Mr. Convey referred to co-educational schools. Having better resources there is one thing, but I am also quite conscious that when it comes to a 12-year-old, he or she has to choose a subject, usually based on his or her previous experience. That goes to his point about people not understanding what technology and engineering are. That is the case even when it comes to science because there has been limited availability of science in primary school. They know what art and music are, but they do not know what this STEM thing is. That is the challenge. I hope that the primary-school curriculum will change some of that, but is there more that can be done?

The second point Mr. Jones raises was about the delivery, which is concerning. I have looked at science papers for junior certificate, and they do seem to be quite vague compared with my day when I did chemistry and biology for leaving certificate. It is quite difficult for a student to know what is being asked and how to excel at that, and for someone who is very good at a STEM area to show that he or she knows what is being asked of him or her. That is a matter of concern being raised by so many science teachers. It is not just about the junior certificate paper or the leaving certificate paper: it is more fundamental throughout the course.

My final point is for Mr. Duffy on the question of CBAs. I am interested in that because we do want to move to a model that has more continuous assessment. Is he saying that it is not as suitable for maths or that it needs to be delivered in a different way? I know that is not all he is saying, but there is limited time and so many of the excellent points he raised were fundamental.

I see maths as a language. I do not believe people necessarily look at it like that. Sometimes people who are good at languages are also good at maths because it is something that is codified. It is not taught like that, so it is quite scary. I mean the curriculum is not like that, so it can be quite scary. Those are my first questions to the witnesses.

Mr. Barry Convey

On the first point about the experience of primary school students with STEM subjects, if we look at all of the mechanisms that are used to ascertain how students are doing on an international basis, such as the programme for international student assessment, PISA, and trends in international mathematics and science study, TIMSS, which are some of the common ones that are used, there is no reference to engineering or technology. Nobody is trying to get a handle on whether we are doing well in STEM or not. In these assessments, STEM generally is maths and sometimes a little bit of science. The data and results from the international surveys are being misrepresented as to how we are doing in STEM when that is not the case. The Department must put together a mechanism to establish where we are at and then come up with a-----

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

Does Mr. Convey mean the Department itself rather than PISA?

Mr. Barry Convey

Yes. If we look at the STEM education policy and statement, the breakdown of the STEM plan for primary education and the time allocated to deliver it, there is 15 minutes a day allocated for roll call and assembly and three minutes a day are allocated for engineering.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

That is unreal.

Mr. Barry Convey

Three minutes are allocated for technology and three minutes for science. If the Department is interested in solving the current issues we have with the promotion of STEM and increasing the participation of all in STEM, it must first look at the time and resources allocated to primary school teachers.

Some 85% of primary school teachers are female. Can we task this cohort of professionals with increasing the awareness among their students of what STEM is, what the STEM subjects are, and the skill set that students develop and carry forward into post-primary education, tertiary education, and then into a career in STEM? That is where the future is and that is where the jobs are.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank Mr. Convey.

Mr. Humphrey Jones

Mr. Convey talked about comparing ourselves internationally first and foremost. If we look at our junior cycle science curriculum, the specification document is 27 pages long, and five pages cover all of the learning outcomes. In fact, the JCT published a document which has all 47 learning outcomes on one page. When we compare that to the GCSE science syllabus produced by the Oxford, Cambridge and RSA, OCR, it is 164 pages long. The vast majority of that is going through each learning outcome, outlining the depth of treatment that is required and the experiments that need to be carried out in order to achieve the goals of the learning outcome. It links into things like literacy in mathematics and other core skills as well.

Our curriculum does not stand up internationally. That is the reality. When we look at our senior cycle specifications and what has been developed in computer science and in agricultural science and we look at courses within the international baccalaureate, IB, or A level, again, the material does not stack up internationally. The quality of the teaching in a classroom will never exceed the quality of the curriculum that is laid out. That is the bottom line. If we are starting with a really poor curriculum then we will end up with a poor product at the very end of it. We will not see the result of the poor junior cycle science specification until ten or 15 years down the line, so it does need to be addressed rather quickly. The content knowledge that is required by our junior cycle science pupils is incredibly low. We have moved from a course where I can see the sentiment behind it, which was developed with the idea of developing key skills such as communication, critical thinking and so on as well, but it has gone too far. Those who developed the curriculum did not quite understand that we can develop all the core skills and values we want but at the same time stretch our pupils cognitively by getting them to engage in meaningful counter-knowledge. That is where we need to address our balance. I am worried about the long-term effects of our junior cycle science curriculum on our competitiveness internationally and as we start moving towards a review of biology, chemistry and physics at leaving certificate, which are going to use the same flawed model. In the longer term, that gets even more worrying.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank Mr. Jones. I did have a final question but I can come back to it.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator O'Reilly should go ahead because we will not have another round.

Mr. Ciarán Duffy

Senator O'Reilly asked about the CBAs. She asked if continuous assessment is not suitable for STEM or whether it should be delivered in a different way. The vast majority of our members would say that CBAs are not suitable. However, we would probably not go as far as calling for them to be scrapped completely. What we would ask is that they would be tweaked slightly and that serious consideration would be given to the implementation of only one CBA over the two years. What we need to give serious consideration to is whether students need to do nine CBAs or possibly ten, in second year and then an additional nine or ten in third year for which they are now only getting their junior cycle profile of achievement of official results from the Department of Education in recent months. These students are now in fifth year, having done their junior cycle either last year or the year before, depending on Covid restrictions.

We have done two surveys of our members and approximately 450 people replied to each of them, one in 2022 and one just before this session today. Some 98% of our respondents replied that they would like one CBA only in the two years. Almost 90% said that they did not find the CBAs beneficial for their students, but this must be taken in consideration with what is perceived and what is actually true, namely, the loss of time of that teachers are feeling with the teaching of the specification of the syllabus for mathematics. We still have 240 hours for maths. There is no issue with that. That is great, but we are now looking at taking three weeks out in both second and third year to do this CBA.

We are looking at taking three weeks out in both second and third year to do this CBA. We know the powers that be would suggest we are using this as a teaching moment as well, but that is really not the reality on the ground.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

It is a chock-a-block curriculum.

Mr. Ciarán Duffy

It is completely and utterly chock-a-block.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

That is really what Mr. Duffy is saying and that is the reason.

Mr. Ciarán Duffy

Maybe there could be more cross-curricular links. Instead of doing something completely different with English and maths, maybe they could marry the two and they could both become part of the one CBA, particularly as both subjects are compulsory.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

That is an interesting point.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the witnesses for attending and for their very helpful opening statements. I will start with Mr. Convey. It was interesting to hear him say that when primary school students go into post-primary school, they have a lack of full understanding of STEM. What could we recommend to rectify that problem? Is it the absence of any awareness of technology and engineering or is it broader than that?

Mr. Barry Convey

Maths is compulsory at primary level. Depending on a post-primary teacher's background, that will determine whether he or she is comfortable delivering science experiments or initiatives throughout the post-primary experience. Most students in primary schools nowadays have three or four teachers throughout their primary school experience. That will vary greatly in relation to the science that is delivered to them, and that is just referring to science.

From an engineering and technology point of view, the students we see coming to our open nights are not informed about the subjects. An opportunity is being missed to give them a full understanding and to develop their understanding. As Senator Pauline O'Reilly mentioned earlier, these students are picking subjects that will determine their career for the rest of their life at 11 and 12 years of age. If we do not expose them to what these subjects are about and their importance, students are not going to pick these subjects in post-primary school.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

What level of understanding should a child in primary school who is about to enter post-primary school have when it comes to technology and engineering? Is it just an awareness of what it is involved?

Mr. Barry Convey

Not only that, one could introduce things like Minecraft, micro:bit or IXL maths, which is a programme that can be used to promote maths outside of school time in a competitive way. Lots of digital supports can be offered to students to support their interests and give them the opportunity to explore the subjects themselves outside of what is one their post-primary school timetables. Teachers in primary school need to be trained, upskilled, made aware and supported, through CPD and the provision of resources, in order to expose students to the subjects, and subject content, they will hopefully take up in post-primary school.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I have a question for Mr. Duffy. I very much agree with what he said about maths. Many people are intimidated by it in secondary school. Of course, they should not be. Those who are able to do it, may not find the ability to do it or are not liberated in order to understand it. What can be done to make it a more appealing subject to people who are going into secondary school?

Mr. Ciarán Duffy

I am a big believer in ensuring there is a fun element to it and that there is an opportunity for students to see that maths - I touched on this earlier - is not always about a right answer. If you were to ask students to write a paragraph on history or an English essay, they would not just give up immediately and say that they cannot do it. They would make some attempt at an opening and a middle and maybe write something for a closing remark. Whereas in maths, it seems there is a stumbling block of "I can't see my way through this answer so I am going to give up." There needs to be something done about making maths a little bit more fun as opposed to the teacher saying "These are the questions. This is an example on the board. Do these ten questions now yourself." There is an opportunity to look at some of the more real-world applications of maths and try to embed them in our teaching and learning practices as well so that students could see, as Mr. Convey mentioned, that what they are doing is both mathematics and engineering or mathematics and science at the same time. Instead of having a disconnect and saying that this is science hour or maths hour, it would provide them with a broader spectrum throughout their day.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Presumably, trying to make it more fun for students is something that should be started in primary school and not just waiting until post-primary school.

Mr. Ciarán Duffy

It should be happening in primary school and at home.

Mr. Barry Convey

If one looks at the Cartesian co-ordinates, it spans multiple subjects at both primary and post-primary level. It covers geography, science, maths and graphics. That is an area that could be introduced in primary school in a simple and fun way. It would save teachers in post-primary schools a lot of time teaching that topic.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Before I come to Mr. Jones, I note Mr. Duffy spoke about the leaving certificate syllabus being too long. What would he like to see gone from it? Not that he would like to see anything gone from the syllabus, but how could it be reduced? What would he drop or would he try to make it less intensive in terms of the broader areas that are covered?

Mr. Ciarán Duffy

First, it is clear from the surveys of our members that there must be an element of choice on all leaving certificate exam papers. That in itself is causing a huge amount of stress to students. The adjustments brought in by the NCCA over the last numbers of years, due to the Covid pandemic, have helped hugely. That is something we will be calling for into the future. In terms of making a call now on what topic should be removed from the syllabus, that is not something I would be able to answer at the minute off the top of my head.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

In his statement, Mr. Jones mentioned he believes the junior certificate science cycle is being dumbed down. Will he elaborate on that? Since I was in school, there is a new subject, physics and chemistry, that students can take for the leaving certificate. It is one subject that involves the study of both areas. Is Mr. Jones concerned that this may be dumbing down science as well?

Mr. Humphrey Jones

To clarify, is the Deputy asking whether the combined physics and chemistry course is dumbing down science?

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Yes. There is a subject for the leaving certificate that combines physics and chemistry. Is Mr. Jones concerned that this may be dumbing down science?

Mr. Humphrey Jones

No. I actually studied the combined physics and chemistry course myself when I did my leaving cert because, due to my timetable, I could not do all three separately. I was able to do the combined course and biology. I found it as a fantastic foundation for me going into a third-level science degree. It did not dumb science down. It is quite an academic course that goes into the fundamentals of each of the two subjects.

For the junior cycle course, we have a course that is a mile wide and an inch deep; that is the reality. Again, it is not outcomes based. Because there are no definitive prescriptions of what we want our pupils to know and understand by the end of the three-year cycle, teachers find it very difficult to create meaningful teaching opportunities for their pupils. Both courses are chalk and cheese, to be honest. What pupils do in physics and chemistry in the junior cycle course does not prepare them for the leaving certificate. That is a big concern.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

We are covering too much in the junior cert cycle and Mr. Jones would like to see a lesser curriculum that is examined in more depth.

Mr. Humphrey Jones

It is not that we are covering too much. They have taken a huge amount out of what was in the old course. The overemphasis on building skills has devalued knowledge. It would be great to see a course that is still knowledge-rich, challenges our pupils cognitively and still develops those skills as well.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a couple of brief questions. On apprenticeships, I am a believer this is an area in which we are missing an opportunity. How would Mr. Convey go about promoting more participation in apprenticeships in the future? He spoke about primary school and the subjects students take up when going into post-primary school. How do we prepare people, our young students, to participate in or take up apprenticeships?

Mr. Barry Convey

Up until now, we have been teaching two curricula to our senior cycle engineering and technology students. One is to prepare them for the assessment and the other is to prepare them for real life and industry and to take up apprenticeships and college courses associated with engineering and technology.

I would include PLCs with apprenticeships. They are very valuable courses. The current climate, where there is a lack of students going on to engage with apprenticeships and PLCs, has to be changed. If we look at the model of the Advanced Manufacturing Training Centre of Excellence, AMTCE, in Dundalk, through Louth and Meath ETB, the model it has introduced and are providing caters for that level 6 cohort so that, although there is a stigma attached to apprenticeships and PLCs, and the parents of the students of this nation want their children to do a university course, that is starting to change. The introduction of technological universities and upgrading the ITs in, for example, Sligo and Limerick to technological university status is welcome and is starting to change the attitude towards PLCs and apprenticeships. The apprenticeships need to be directly aligned with these technological universities.

Regarding the subjects children are picking when they are 12 years of age, they need to have a full understanding of the subjects and the career paths they will have access to. The awareness campaign that will be delivered for STEM at primary, post-primary and tertiary will be an opportunity to make the decision-makers, who are the parents and guardians of our youngsters, aware of the benefits of studying apprenticeships and the possibilities of further education to follow on from those apprenticeships.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy O'Callaghan spoke about giving the student going into secondary school a full understanding of the subjects. Many parents do not understand the subjects. Who should the onus fall upon to give the sixth class student going into first year an understanding of what these subjects will achieve for them in five or six years time and the opportunities it will create for them? Is that down to the primary school, the parent of the student going into secondary school or the secondary school when students are selecting the subjects? I am not sure if they have access to information on the subjects. I have a daughter going into secondary school this year so it will be a game-changer for me. Should that onus fall on the career guidance teacher in the secondary school or who should take on that responsibility?

Mr. Barry Convey

I take this opportunity to invite the committee members to take note of the process of a student transitioning from primary to post-primary and the limited opportunity at post-primary to inform and educate the primary-school students on the subjects that are going to be taken. With regard to the information that is required, the onus currently falls on parents and primary-school teachers. That is why I suggest the Department of Education provides a nationwide awareness campaign on what STEM is and what the STEM subjects are so a parent can have that professional conversation with the primary-school teacher about what their daughter is going to study during her post-primary experience and the pathways to tertiary.

An Cathaoirleach

Many primary-school children do not even know what career paths they are going to take when they go into secondary school. That is another obstacle in that what they might want to do going into first year could be totally changed by the time they get into second, third or fifth year, and their career paths might change. I want to drill into this. I agree with Mr. Convey but a lot of thought will have to go into the campaign he is talking about. I would welcome it if he could be forthcoming to the committee at a later date and give us a proposal that we might be able to work around to try to get the Department of Education to do such a thing.

I fully agree with Mr. Convey, but it is about drilling down into that and the thought process behind it and getting it absolutely correct for students in order that we do not bamboozle them when they are going into post-primary school.

Mr. Barry Convey

I would welcome that invitation.

An Cathaoirleach

There is a lot going on in their heads. Going into secondary school is a huge change for them, including a culture change, and now we are going to heap all of this on top of that by saying that the subjects they pick today will decide their careers in the future.

Mr. Barry Convey

Limited career guidance is offered to third year students. It is pretty much about informing students of tertiary courses and directing them on picking their college courses. First and second year students in post-primary do not get a whole pile of access to career guidance, so it is students in fifth and sixth class in primary who need to get access to information that will inform them on the subjects they are picking, which will lead to college courses, which will lead to the careers and professions that Ireland needs.

It is probable that more than one advertisement campaign is needed. One may be targeted at primary school students but this also needs a broader one that will target parents and primary teachers. That will then help and support the post-primary schools so that, when they are offering their open nights, hopefully, they will be dealing with students who are aware of what the subjects are and the skill set that is associated with each subject.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Convey. Mr. Duffy spoke about having a second paper at junior certificate for maths. Did his association get agreement with the unions in and around that? It might be a big obstacle, although perhaps it would not be and maybe they would be very much in agreement with that. One of the members spoke about maths. It is a frightening subject for someone who is not comfortable with it. A huge number of students just forget about it because they are not able to cope with the difficulties they foresee or that they think they have. I ask Mr. Duffy to expand on that. He mentioned additional bonus points. I presume that would be at leaving certificate level. What is his proposal in that regard?

Mr. Ciarán Duffy

Up until a number of years ago, there were two papers at junior certificate level.

An Cathaoirleach

When did that stop?

Mr. Ciarán Duffy

The junior cycle students who just did their exams last year were the first in mathematics to have done just one paper as they did not have the exam because of Covid. It was one of the last subjects brought in for junior cycle, other than the T4 subjects. If we think about what we are doing, we are taking a 240-hour course and reducing it down to one two-hour or two-and-a-half exam paper at junior cycle. That is actually causing more stress to students.

An Cathaoirleach

I agree.

Mr. Ciarán Duffy

They have no idea what is expected of them in that two-hour exam. I know that in English, a number of years ago, they ended up spending two or three weeks studying Shakespeare and there was no opportunity to write about Shakespeare on the exam paper. While we can say the skills are transferable and that they have learned skills they can adapt to other situations and scenarios, for a 15-year old student, they are not seeing it like that. They could very easily spend a huge amount of time learning a particular discipline or skill in mathematics and then not have any assessment element of that on their one exam paper. Obviously, by having one exam paper, we have a reduced opportunity to assess a vast array of skills. In addition, because of the unifying strand at junior cycle, everything is now interwoven with other aspects, so there is very little opportunity to just do a traditional question as we would have had it ourselves a number of years ago, for example, an algebra question or a statistics question.

Everything is interwoven, so there is a statistics question that involves a bit of co-ordinate geometry, probability and various other things. While that is fine, does it need to be for the entire examination paper? There is definitely scope for investigating both models and for perhaps having one paper that is different from the other.

I am not sure the one-size-fits-all model in the junior cycle is working as well as it could be. On bonus points, we surveyed our members on this. There is an idea that an awful lot of students are now accessing higher level maths at leaving certificate. The numbers have skyrocketed since 2012 with the introduction of project maths, which is fantastic. We certainly would not call for the removal of the bonus points but we need to be very careful that there are students who are accessing the correct level of mathematics for their ability. There is a huge number of students across the country who are insisting on doing higher level maths at leaving certificate who quite frankly probably are not able for it at that stage of their mathematical or educational development. They are only doing it for this need of the 25 additional points. In the survey of our members, the idea came back very clearly of having a scaled model, starting at 25 points for the H1 and working down in segments of five points, as opposed to 25 marks for everybody who gets a H6 or above.

An Cathaoirleach

I met a group regarding the challenges of recruiting physics teachers. I presume this is right across the board for all sciences but this was about a particular challenge regarding physics teachers. Where are we going and what challenges are we going to have? A lot of these people are now going into the private sector. That line of argument has come from other witnesses at the committee over the last few weeks. Where does Mr. Jones see us heading and what does the Department need to do to make sure we have sufficient teachers in science subjects?

Mr. Humphrey Jones

It is a real challenge. There is no one clear answer to it. If we reverse-engineer it, we need to make sure we have enough people doing leaving certificate physics. If we reverse-engineer it further again, is the junior cycle preparing students for leaving certificate physics? Is that a barrier for them not going on to leaving certificate physics? If they are not going from junior cycle to senior cycle, they are not going to go on to third level either. If we have a smaller cohort of physics graduates in a very competitive work environment, are they going to work in the private sector where they are well paid, or will they become teachers in Dublin schools where they are paying enormous rents and struggling to survive? In terms of our remit and our level of control, it is about going back and ensuring that we have enough people coming out of second level with a solid foundation of physics that allows them to feel confident going on to third level. I know many third level lecturers who are worried about a potential gap between second level and third level physics. The trend is that we are dumbing down our courses. We are dumbing down junior cycle and we may well dumb down senior cycle as well. That leaves us with an even greater challenge. We need to make sure, through a campaign and concerted effort, that we get more and more people studying physics and chemistry in order that we have enough graduates going into the system and hopefully providing it. It is not for me to decide whether the Government may need to do something to incentivise physics or maths teachers working in cities like Dublin where there is a higher cost of living. It is certainly a factor, however.

Mr. Barry Convey

On the time afforded to teachers in schools to collaborate, share ideas and identify opportunities to collaborate, a student studying engineering, physics, maths and maybe computer science, all at higher level, will be very well placed to handle the type of content to which he or she is exposed in tertiary.

The Department needs to put the resources and support in place for post-primary teachers to have meaningful conversations and to participate in interdepartmental meetings to plan for these collaboration opportunities.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. The discussion has been productive and worthwhile. The future of STEM subjects is an issue of huge importance to the committee. Plumbers and electricians will be the wealthy people in years to come if we do not get more apprenticeship programmes in place in our colleges. I agree with Mr. Convey's point about TUS appealing for more people to be able to participate in apprenticeship programmes. We have visited the technological universities in Limerick and Cork to see what is happening there. There is a lot done but more to do.

Sitting suspended at 12.41 p.m. and resumed at 12.47 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

We move on to the second session of our resumed discussion on the future of STEM subjects in Irish education. I welcome Professor Lisa Looney, vice president of academic affairs and registrar at Dublin City University, DCU, who is representing the Irish Universities Association, IUA; Dr. Maria Kyne, dean of the faculty of engineering and the built environment at Technological University of the Shannon, TUS, who is representing the Technological Higher Education Association, THEA; and Dr. Mary Kelly, academic dean of Hibernia College, who is representing the Higher Education Colleges Association, HECA.

The format of the session is that I will invite the witnesses to make a brief opening statement of five minutes each, beginning with Professor Looney and followed by Dr. Kyne and Dr. Kelly. The statements will be followed by questions from committee members. The witnesses are advised that their opening statements will be published on the committee website. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the Chair to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that witnesses comply with any such direction.

I invite Professor Looney to give her opening statement.

Professor Lisa Looney

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the opportunity to have an input into today's discussion. I represent the IUA, the eight members of which play a key role in STEM education. We design and deliver the programmes that provide specialist STEM capabilities and capacity. We educate the educators at all levels from early years on, including specialist teachers of STEM. We engage in research about STEM education. We are leaders and partners in activities to strengthen and diversify participation in STEM.

We acknowledge the value of STEM literacy broadly and the fundamental role of early childhood, primary, and post-primary education in shaping motivation and interest in STEM subjects and developing the associated skills. Integrated STEM education from early years on is key. Success in this is predicated on teachers having content knowledge and confidence across STEM disciplines. Diversity in STEM goes hand in hand with access to a wide range of subjects and appropriately qualified teachers. Committee members will have heard from other stakeholders about the challenges associated with each element of this recipe for success. We in the IUA support the addressing of those challenges.

While STEM literacy on completion of post-primary school is empowering for citizens generally, there is a clear need to capitalise on it in specific ways. It is important we meet skills needs across key sectors of the economy, and open the door to and sustain rich careers in STEM for individuals. This is where the role of IUA institutions primarily sits. As such, the level of interest among school-leavers in STEM programmes, and their preparedness to be successful in those programmes are important to us.

In terms of initiatives to generate interest in STEM, a multitude of which are led or supported by IUA members, we urge that policy move to provide consistency and substance in funding, so that momentum can be maintained for individual activities, our ability to evaluate impact is improved and we can seed new innovations to drive interest in STEM. Preparedness for university study is linked to competence in core underpinning subjects, such as mathematics and the natural sciences and we welcome positive trends in the uptake of higher-level leaving certificate STEM subjects, including mathematics. However, we echo concerns expressed by others to this committee that the Programme for International Student Assessment, PISA, data show the higher performing cohort in Ireland is behind its peers internationally in mathematics. The growing number of students taking computer science as a leaving certificate subject is a positive and IUA encourages Government to ensure computer science is offered broadly and that education is funded for sufficient numbers of secondary school teachers to upskill in computer science.

To capitalise on STEM education to address skills needs, including skills focused on the challenges of climate change and the digital transition, we need a policy focus on scaling the provision of STEM programmes at third level. We also need a broader strategy for lifelong learning, including reskilling and upskilling to unlock the potential for STEM participation and inclusion. IUA institutions have been proactive. We have absorbed a significant number of additional STEM enrolments over the last six years. Despite this and the support of the Human Capital Initiative, funded from the National Training Fund, shortages of STEM graduates exist very broadly. If anything, emphasis on areas such as ICT and engineering seems to have reduced and policy shifted to shortages in health-related disciplines where Government is the main employer. We cannot afford to reduce emphasis on the physics, sciences, ICT and engineering aspects of STEM. We are far from meeting the skills challenge currently and that has a very negative impact on competitiveness.

The single barrier to increased provision of places on STEM programmes is underfunding, both recurrent and capital. That funding, which is available under targeted schemes, is often allocated in a piecemeal way which does not add capacity. Funding the Future explicitly accepts that we must bring our staff-student ratios more in line with our European peers. There is no argument about where we are on funding in that sense. The agile development of new STEM programmes, teaching active pedagogies, providing more laboratories, running more research projects, providing academic supports and producing quality online resources all absorb significant time and insufficient numbers of staff limit our ambitions for all of these. In effect, because of funding, IUA members are currently stalled in our ability to do what we want to do, which is to strategically plan enhancements for STEM capacity and provide greater agility to respond to STEM skills need. This can only change by addressing the gap in core funding. The first step of €40 million towards that, while very welcome, was considerably less than that required to have meaningful impact. We call for the urgently needed investment of €307 million per annum to be fully addressed over the next two budgets with at least €150 million provided in budget 2024.

The second dimension to underfunding is capital investment. STEM-related programmes by their nature tend to have higher capital investment requirements. Investment has been very low since the financial crisis. IUA institutions have borrowed to fill that gap and most are at their borrowing limits at this point. There is very little else we can do in terms of capital investment without a focus on this. The remarks I have made about funding apply not just to taught programmes but also to research programmes in STEM at master's and doctoral level, with respect to capital investment in particular. The work that is taking place on the review of PhD supports and the new research funding agency are important opportunities to address those issues in terms of support for STEM and research.

In talking to this committee, the Union of Students in Ireland emphasised diversity and the importance of a culture of inclusion in STEM and those are priorities we in the IUA echo. As an engineer and former executive dean of a faculty of engineering and computing, this is an area of particular interest to me. There are three short points I want to make around this area.

We have had a sustained focus on women in STEM for more than 30 years. I know because I have been there for the past 30 years. This has delivered progress but at a frustratingly slow pace. We need to keep doing what we have been doing, but we need to add new thinking around things such as gendered perception of confidence, the difficulty of STEM, how we use role models and how career risk is perceived. We now have a much larger pool of young women with strong competence at higher mathematics than there was a decade ago, but that competence is not translating into a higher number of women choosing STEM at third level to the same degree. We should examine how that could be changed.

The stakes have risen compared with what they have been. We are heading into a very exciting time for science, engineering and technology, with the adoption of artificial intelligence tools. The people who will shape our society, businesses, healthcare and policymaking will be those who can navigate STEM concepts, are not intimidated by the terminology and can understand the value of STEM artefacts. Unless we effectively address lack of diversity in STEM, the technology divide will create faultlines in society and women and people from poorer families will be on the wrong side. A new level of urgency is merited on the issue of diversity and inclusion.

We have submitted some written information which I hope will be helpful.

Dr. Maria Kyne

The Technological Higher Education Association, THEA, currently represents three of the five new technological universities and institutes of technology in Ireland. Our members have a long tradition of providing education to students and apprentices of STEM disciplines. The considerable growth of STEM programmes in the higher education institute of technology sector over the past 50 years has been in direct response to industry needs in order that we are graduating industry-ready students and apprentices. We work with relevant industry groups through shared partnerships such as Explore Engineering, professional bodies such as Engineers Ireland, teachers associations such as we had here earlier, regional skills forums and others to ensure graduates have the relevant knowledge, skills and competencies. In our experience, a shortage of STEM graduates has led industry and academia to collaborate more effectively and create new initiatives to attract second-level students into STEM careers, such as the Explore Engineering showcase.

The pace of change in technology has created and will continue to create a need for workforce upskilling and reskilling. The Government Springboard and human capital initiatives have had a positive impact here with targeted programme development as well as the work of the various regional skills forums. The pace of change in technology will continue to impact on our ability to deliver programmes and graduates with the appropriate skills to industry. Investment in higher education STEM facilities, equipment and technology is now more important and urgent than in the past, where more funding targeted at providing state-of-the-art technologies is needed. Government investment in the consortiums-led apprenticeships has delivered a significant increase in apprenticeships available to students, and the access to apprenticeship programme is providing a pathway for students from socioeconomically disadvantaged areas to enter apprenticeships. These are examples of where Government investment in STEM initiatives has yielded positive outcomes. The higher education apprenticeship providers are collaborating as a sector and are proactive in support of Government policy implementation, such as the recent publication on the response to the action plan for apprenticeships.

A gender focus to encourage more females into STEM careers has the potential to grow the graduate output in these disciplines significantly. International Women’s Day on 8 March recognised the growing inequalities in the access to technology, with women being left behind as a result of the digital gender divide. It was called the DigitALL. The Higher Education Authority, HEA, has provided statistics that indicate that the gender gap is more prominent in higher education engineering, manufacturing and construction programmes. Engineers Ireland stated that approximately 12% to 13% of engineering graduates in 2018 and 2019 were women. However, since 2016, the HEA has measured that female participation in higher education STEM programmes is steadily increasing, at a very slow pace, with greater female participation at masters and PhD level.

We are working with our industry partners and professional bodies to promote STEM careers to second level students, such as the Explore Engineering inspire event and others. Policy decisions to encourage more technology subjects at junior and senior cycle and investment in STEM facilities in second level schools would support the growth in students opting for STEM programmes in higher education.

Additional Government research supports would be welcome to focus on the entire STEM area to ensure Ireland is at the cutting edge of technology developments and continues to increase STEM job figures. From my own experience, I envisage that the technological universities and institutes-of-technology sector will continue to respond actively to Government policies on skills development, upskilling, reskilling, research and apprenticeships.

Dr. Mary Kelly

The Higher Education Colleges Association, HECA, welcomes the opportunity to make this submission on the future of STEM in Irish education. HECA represents the majority of established, mature, privately-funded higher education institutions, providing programmes that are validated by Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, flexible, cost-effective and focused at levels 6 to 9 on the national framework of qualifications, NFQ, with some members, including my own institution, Hibernia College, providing initial teacher education programmes across all levels. We are currently facing rapid technological advancements and societal changes, along with uncertainty over the future of work and the economy. However, it is clear to all of us here that STEM will play a critical role in all our futures and, as such, STEM education is vital for providing individuals with the skills and knowledge necessary to succeed in a wide range of careers and fields.

From early childhood education to post-primary education, Ireland has a clear pathway for developing 21st-century skills through various curriculums and frameworks. These policies contribute to an overarching vision for STEM across the education system. They outline the benefits that STEM education offers for all students, supporting children’s capacity to understand and engage fully with the world around them, facilitating deeper and more meaningful peer-to-peer learning and fostering critical communication skills. However, while institutional and teacher capacity development through policies, frameworks, and programmes is essential, achieving and advancing STEM education goals necessitates several key actions.

One of these actions is developing the future skills of teachers. Enhancing initial teacher education and providing continued professional development opportunities for in-career teachers will be crucial for the future. The quality of teaching remains one of the most important factors influencing student learning opportunities and it is crucial to explicitly develop teachers' capacity to understand, embed and assess learners' future skills, as well as recognising the role of teacher training in promoting excellence in digital and STEM education.

STEM education relies heavily on technology as one of its fundamental components. Technology is increasingly playing a significant role in classrooms, reflecting the interactive media children use from an early age. Policymakers must invest in digital resources in schools. To authentically integrate technology into the classroom, teachers need to be able to allow pupils to use familiar devices to enhance their learning and provide concrete methods for tracking individual achievements and personalising lessons. Authentic integration of technology can improve student engagement, which can lead to enhanced critical thinking.

Many studies indicate that students from underprivileged backgrounds are less likely to pursue STEM courses, leading to a lack of diversity in the field, including women and individuals from ethnic minorities. The Secretary General of the United Nations announced in 2021 that, "advancing gender equality in science and technology is essential for building a better future". Jennifer O'Brien has outlined how women are still underrepresented in STEM professions. She has noted that according to the Central Statistics Office, CSO, in 2021 there were approximately 117,800 people employed in STEM-related roles, but less than 25% of these roles are held by women. Ms O'Brien goes on to state that in Ireland, the gender gap in STEM starts to become more apparent after the junior cycle, noting that the optimal age for pursuing STEM topics is between nine and 13 years old.

It is imperative, therefore, to ensure that STEM subjects are not only available to students but are given the priority they deserve and schools have the necessary resources and teaching methodologies to deliver these subjects effectively.

Although higher education offers many specialised courses in STEM fields, it is crucial to provide not only advanced degrees and postgraduate courses in these subjects but also interdisciplinary modules that can be integrated with other areas of study. To respond to rapid digital and STEM changes, we at HECA believe that national regulation should be flexible and time-sensitive, enabling both private and public higher education institutes to quickly introduce new programmes, micro-credentials and delivery modes under the digital strategy and STEM needs. This also relates to apprenticeships. Policymakers and educators must prioritise STEM education and invest in resources to support it for students to succeed. Expansion of the Springboard programme to widen the participation of under-represented groups and upskilling should occur.

Furthermore, while a HECA member does not have representation on the recently launched artificial intelligence working group, the private education sector does not have representation on key national drivers and decision-making panels and this must be addressed. It is important to ensure that all key stakeholders in STEM education provision and digital strategy are included in national steering groups to ensure their perspectives and expertise are considered. Excluding any stakeholder, particularly a key one, can potentially hinder progress and result in missed opportunities for collaboration and innovation.

Finally, the centrality of a student in relation to the processes and outcomes of education, regardless of the methodologies used and the environment in which they are placed, must always remain the focus of policy developments.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I welcome the speakers and thank them for their opening statements. I appreciate the importance they are placing on STEM. I come from an arts background but I worked in Science Foundation Ireland for a number of years. It opened my eyes to the different careers available to so many young students and the importance of STEM in many walks of life.

I like the idea that Dr. Kelly mentioned around the multidisciplinary nature of courses we do at third level and potentially how courses could be adapted. I did an arts degree and studied French and history. I taught French afterwards - subbing - I had not done the full HDip at the time. One was able to do that at that time. Perhaps there is a way to bring in one of those subjects. I did biology, for example, for honours leaving certificate. However, it just was not feasible when I did my arts degree. One was not able to pick and choose between arts and a module in science. Does Dr. Kelly have any comments on that? I am curious about that element of somebody going down the arts route in third level, for example, having the opportunity to take on modules. Is that possible? I know in the University of Galway and so on there is an amalgamation now between colleges of engineering, science and medicine. We are seeing them coming together. Particularly, now we are seeing it potentially around our agencies. Our brand new third level department and brand new higher education authority will be funding third level. Can Dr. Kelly comment on that? I might ask the three speakers.

Dr. Mary Kelly

Yes, I totally agree. I think it will be increasingly important. If we are talking about an integrated curriculum, children will experience that sort of blended learning from a very young age and there is no reason why it should not happen at third level. Senator Dolan mentioned the arts. Music and film at the moment are all about virtual reality, augmented reality, technology and digital technologies. The film industry in Ireland is booming at the moment. It is a lot of technology that is driving that, so why would somebody who is studying an arts degree not be able to introduce and avail of that sort of technology? That is the kind of broader thinking that we will all have to embrace if we are really focused on driving STEM.

As I said, from the beginning, as a primary school teacher, you do not look at subjects in isolation, rather, you look at opportunities to bring in and develop technology across those. That needs to continue. There is something now called STEAM, which is STEM with the arts included, so we are seeing that.

Senator Aisling Dolan

It is great.

Dr. Mary Kelly

I agree that it is something we can do. All of us in third level will be able to offer micro-credentials. That will be a huge opportunity to be able to stack.

The other aspect that is important is lifelong learning. For example, just because I have done a degree does not necessarily mean that I am finished. I can go back and specialise in a particular area. We need to think about all of those sorts of things.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I very much agree with regard to lifelong learning. Ireland does not fare so well when it comes to stats in that regard, unfortunately.

Professor Lisa Looney

The Senator raised an important point. It is clear that technology will infuse all walks of life and all workplaces in the future.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Very true.

Professor Lisa Looney

On interdisciplinary and cross-disciplinary, particularly with STEM as the starting point, that intersection with other areas will be important. There is much working going on in that across the universities. The human capital initiative, HCI, has been instrumental in that. Looking at the prospectus of DCU, which is the university I know best, we have HCI-funded programmes in psychology, with disruptive technologies, and in chemistry, with AI. We have a degree in global challenges, which is led out from our school of law and government working with our electronic engineers.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Excellent.

Professor Lisa Looney

The portfolio is changing. We also rolled out a multilingualism programme. We are up to seven languages available as optional modules. The students can pick Japanese to French. It can be ab initio or, if they have done it in leaving certificate, they can pick it up and try to maintain their level. Things such as that are happening across the university sector. However, there are challenges to that. No more than somebody leaving primary school not knowing what they want to do in their career, many 17-, 18- and 19-year-olds also do not know what they want to do with their life thereafter. While traditional degrees might be something they recognise, interdisciplinary or cross-disciplinary degrees are even more vague in terms of where they might take you sometimes. That can be a challenge in recruiting students to degrees that are fully cross-disciplinary.

Senator Aisling Dolan

The issues of diversity and bringing women in were mentioned. It is funny because we had teachers here in our first session, namely, maths teachers and different representative groups. They were great speakers and all men. They highlighted that they need more diversity and more women. Coming back to my experience in college, there are many women in arts. I refer to engineering. I have never been in an engineering lecture in college but if one went to one, I can only imagine. We used to say that it was all guys. The whole idea of a multidisciplinary approach in the context of how we marry colleges within our universities is going to be absolutely key. Dr. Kyne might comment on this matter. I am conscious of time.

Dr. Maria Kyne

I agree with everything the other speakers said. The integrated curriculum is something new that is coming into the technological university area, particularly in the ICT space because that cuts across business, arts and engineering. We had an Explore Engineering “Inspire” event where we had ten women presenting to girls from all of the local mid-west schools. We brought them into the Technological University of the Shannon, TUS, in early December. Some of them went down the traditional engineering route where they got their engineering degree, went on to do a doctorate and became a lecturer or went into industry. About six out of the ten came from arts, maths or science backgrounds and ended up in engineering careers. They told the girls there are wonderful opportunities and there is great joy in ending up in an engineering environment. They talked about how, throughout their careers, they found themselves in an engineering or a STEM environment. I found that enlightening. It was good for the girls to hear that even if they start out down a particular road, such as business or arts, there are opportunities to cross over into engineering and STEM careers. We had live models and examples of that on the day.

Senator Aisling Dolan

That is the great foundation one gets from arts. That is where it comes from. It gives one the confidence to be able to approach all those other sectors as well.

I very much agree. We have two or three careers in a lifetime. Why not change sectors and have that broad experience?

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank everyone for their statements. The IUA's opening statement discussed the need for policy focus on scaling the provision of STEM at third level and a broader strategy for lifelong learning. Obviously, we have discussed reskilling and upskilling. Is the State an outlier in how we support students in part-time education? Is there a need to reduce the cost and increase supports for part-time education? What is being charged for some of the masters programmes is outrageous. It is phenomenal. It is above and beyond the reach of many. How do we look at that? I also want to ask about the overall future of funding.

Professor Lisa Looney

We need to make education accessible at all levels through to lifelong learning. The funding model to date has been focused on the undergraduate side. On the postgraduate side, there has been some subventions from the Government around fees for things such as masters in engineering or computing where there are huge skills shortages. Over the years, those were eroded. Potential learners at that level face the economic cost of a masters.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

How can higher education institutes justify a cost for a part-time masters course that runs into thousands?

Professor Lisa Looney

That does not even cover the cost of the masters programme.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Even those who are part time, one day a week?

Professor Lisa Looney

Even for part time. It is pro rata. It is stated in Funding the Future that we are actually underfunded for our students at all levels, and that includes masters level. That is particularly in research, too. There is no price gouging or whatever going on, if that is what the Deputy is implying.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

No. I think-----

Professor Lisa Looney

They are expensive courses to run. They are facilities heavy. Looking at international comparators, we are not outliers in that sense.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

We are not?

Professor Lisa Looney

No, we are not. The subventions we used to have are gone in the particular areas of focus for skills development. That has exposed the full cost of what it takes to have a masters. On lifelong learning, it is clear we need a new model for how we fund continuing learners, post-experience learners, graduates etc. The model is not fit for purpose in that regard. Industry is good at supporting people to upskill where they are in work. Many of our students are supported by their companies in pursuing their masters, and that is an important contributor as well as agencies such as Skillnet Ireland and Springboard. There are a number of groups.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

We have a €307 million gap. There is a possibility of at least €150 million in budget 2024 and how that needs to be done. I very much hear what Professor Looney is saying about the piecemeal approach to it. I am concerned about the waste of resources when we have a piecemeal approach like that instead of how we could maximise if we had the core funding sorted out. When I talk about the expensiveness of it, I have huge concerns across the board about how education is funded, commodified and everything else. We need some serious action around that. That does not take away from what is needed.

On the borrowing limits, IUA's opening statement said that many of its members have reached the borrowing limits and will not be able to meet the required growth in STEM provision over the next decade without capital investment. What is the current level of debt across the public higher education system? What are the risks from higher interest rates?

Professor Lisa Looney

I do not have sight of the full figures across the higher education sector. The universities are all autonomous. They are all managing their borrowings individually. What we do know is that several IUA members have reached the ceiling of what they can borrow. If one applies to the ECB, it will look at the ability to pay back, and there are limits.

Therefore we are stalled in what we can do. We saw that play out with student accommodation investment, for example.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I need to ask Dr. Kyne a question related to accessibility. Will she give an update on the borrowing framework for the technological universities? The Minister tells us time and again that the technological universities can now borrow but is this the case? Can they borrow as it is now? Is everything put in place for the technological universities to borrow?

Dr. Maria Kyne

I cannot answer that myself because I do not have access to the information. I do know that borrowing capacity has come into place but our own university has not accessed it yet. We are looking at putting in student accommodation when that borrowing framework is in place.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Would Dr. Kyne be able to get us a note on it?

Dr. Maria Kyne

I will of course.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I would appreciate it. If she could get a note to the committee on exactly what the situation is because we are hearing conflicting information. The Minister will say that they have the borrowing capacity and then we hear -----

An Cathaoirleach

We are broadening the conversation just a little bit.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I know but if the students cannot get there because there is no accommodation, it has an impact.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand but I do not expect the witnesses to have answers to a policy issue they have not come in to discuss, so we may skip over that part of it.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

That is why it would be really appreciated were somebody to get the note.

An Cathaoirleach

I will get the clerk to the committee to write to the Minister to see where we are on the borrowing framework. Is that okay?

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Okay. I will leave my questions at that. I am out of time.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank the witnesses. I will focus on the equality aspect. The reason there had been a gender focus on STEM was because of those working in industries based on STEM subjects. However, as Professor Looney quite rightly said, we are in a different phase now. We are somewhat through a digital revolution and we are into a green revolution. That means that every single human must have that underpinning and understanding. I have long been concerned by the intergenerational inequalities where older people are not able to deal with their finances because it is moving online and so on. Much of that relates to not having had the knowledge base. In the next room, I have been discussing the sustainable development goals, SDGs. Education is SDG 4. While Ireland does well in education at primary and second-level and even in tertiary education, it is life-long learning where we are not up to scratch on an international level. I am interested to hear what we can do. Will the kind of investment that has been put in over the last couple years get us to where we need to be?

We need a focus on teaching. It is teaching for everyday life, rather than for further careers at a high-level engineering or technology environment that is probably missing here. That is where girls and women miss out. A witness pointed out to me earlier that we expect teachers to have a certain level when it comes to Irish but not necessarily when it comes to maths or science. It is no wonder that we are putting teachers into a position where they do not necessarily have the education backup to be proficient in science. Children come into secondary school understanding what some subjects mean and so they choose the subjects that they understand but they do not choose the ones which they have no understanding of or basis in up to the age of 12, in technology, science and so on. The part of about teaching is where I would like to focus. Everyone here has emphasised that and for our purposes today, that is what we need to focus on.

Dr. Maria Kyne

Regarding teaching, we have been trying as universities and institutes of technology to help teachers to understand engineering in particular and the different branches of it. For some guidance teachers, it is an area they have never come across. They are much more familiar with science and maths. They find it hard to understand the different types of engineering. We invite guidance counsellors every year and show them laboratories so they are familiar with what mechanical and civil engineering, etc., look like. They can then go and teach or at least advise second-level schools. The career guidance profession had its annual conference in Sligo about a week ago, at which the chair of the Explore Engineering group gave a presentation about what the group does and our showcase, in which industry displays what it does in the engineering and STEM fields, including ICT and science. Some 44 companies displayed what they do. We had an open showcase for parents and students to come and see what engineering is. We did the same thing for apprenticeships in the mid-west region in November. We invited all students from second level up to these events to see what the different apprenticeships were, so rather than talking about it, they could see what it means. It is about educating parents, students and teachers. They have all been invited. We were on Facebook in all its forms to try to sell that so that people have access to the information they need to make informed choices, for teachers, parents and students.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I have a few points about educators of our young STEM potential. A few things struck me. Thirty years ago, I ran a course across Europe for career guidance teachers at second level, which was run completely by female engineers, to try to address some of the gender bias that may have been there around the options students took. We are still talking about that. The informal set of competitions, some national, some local, etc., are wonderful and have been part of the landscape for decades. We are not sure what impact they are having. We need to maintain them but we are still giving out piecemeal funding, year in, year out, €2,000 here, €3,000 there, or 60% of what you need. We should make sure there is funding and if there is a really good idea, such as doing robotics with girl guides, that is fantastic, give them money to do it for five years and then do a proper evaluation, look at the impact, and perhaps fund it for another five years. We are sucking the lifeblood out of people who have huge goodwill regarding this agenda. Every year, we ask them to tell us again why it is a good idea and what company they have managed to convince to give them €500. We need to get serious about garnering momentum around sustaining it and evaluating it in a professionalised way.

Regarding primary educators, there is a lot going on. In DCU, there is an amazing Lego room student teachers work from and with. There is an amazing Minecraft room, which I think was mentioned earlier today. Strands of teachers are coming through specialising in STEM, the excitement around it, the basic competencies and the skills it develops. That is certainly happening. Maths capability was mentioned earlier. There are now approximately 8,000 young women leaving the secondary school system with a higher-level qualification in maths that would equip them to do engineering, while ten years ago, it was 4,000. Many of them are going into teaching because they may have set out to do higher level maths to get the points to get into teaching. We are not capitalising on that. Many young women, in particular, do not draw confidence from that maths ability. They have it but they do not use it to pick chemistry or engineering in third level. Equally, they do not put it in their backpack and take it into the classrooms they are teaching in and say to themselves, "I am good at maths", and "You can be good at maths", to their students.

As a country, we are quick to say we are good storytellers, artists etc., but we do not claim the ground that we are good at mathematics and the foundational-type skills needed for science like teamwork and all of those other areas. The change in the uptake of higher level maths is a huge opportunity for how we signal what is important in our teachers, particularly at primary level. I jumped around a little but I hope I spoke to some of the points.

Professor Lisa Looney

I am a primary school teacher by background so I think the quality of teaching is crucial. At Hibernia College, there is a professional masters programme and we have trained more than 11,000. I have been there for the past ten years. I have seen huge growth in the number of females coming through with high-level skills in maths. Unfortunately, at post-primary, they are not choosing to become post-primary teachers in those subject areas. There is a good base of primary school teachers. The draft primary curriculum is moving towards more technology, more critical thinking and those types of skills, which will do a lot. We will never stop needing continuing professional development for teachers at a very high level. The closer we get to the teacher in the classroom, the more impactful the change will be. We must be able to model good practice with our teachers, show them what it looks like and bring industry and higher and third level into the classroom so teachers can see what it is all about. I am concerned we are not seeing that at post-primary level. It is a huge area we may need to look at collectively. We must examine upskilling programmes for teachers. We talk about teacher supply and the lack of teachers in areas. There are a cohort of teachers who are excellent at their jobs and, perhaps, with another 60 credits of upskilling, could teach maths, biology or engineering and could transfer. We need to examine more technology and using shared teachers across the system. If we do not get the teaching right, all the other things do not fall into place. We must focus on that quality at this point and investing in that, at primary, post-primary and initial teacher education level.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank all three witnesses for coming before the committee. I am very interested to hear what they have had to say. Professor Looney mentioned the higher performing cohort in mathematics in Ireland. Sometimes, we do not give sufficient attention to that higher performing cohort of students. She indicated, as did a previous witness before the committee, that we do not compare that well internationally when our higher performing cohorts are compared with international higher performing cohorts. What is the disadvantage for Ireland in that? There is obviously a disadvantage. Will Professor Looney elaborate on that?

Professor Lisa Looney

The disadvantage is most acute in the context of that highest performing cohort translating and becoming our leaders in technology, development and innovation in the future. It is us leveraging to the greatest effect the capability that exists. If they are underperforming, that translates and carries into the next level. It was mentioned that we look at the additional needs of students, and often the focus is on one set of types of additional needs. Higher performing students also have additional needs, which is recognised formally. Whether that translates in practice to supports, I am less sure. In the Centre for Talented Youth in Ireland, CTYI, based in DCU, many of those high-performing students come on Saturdays, weekends and to summer schools to try to get extra support and the extra stretch. They are the kids who will become the leaders of the future in technology and STEM and will protect Ireland in many ways. The public good was mentioned. As a player internationally, whether in cybersecurity or the green transition, we need strong individuals with strong capabilities, entrepreneurial spirits etc., who are building on the high capability they have in mathematics.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

When should we be identifying that higher performing cohort? What should we be doing to bring them up to the standard of their international peers?

Professor Lisa Looney

This is a little outside my expertise, but I know that kids as young as six, seven and eight years of age are attending the Centre for Talented Youth Ireland, CTYI, on Saturdays and have already been identified by their teachers as being particularly high in ability. Obviously, there are others where this becomes more apparent later.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank Professor Looney. Turning to Dr. Kyne, I was interested in the statistics in THEA's submission regarding the participation of women in PhD studies in STEM subjects. I thought it was relatively high, but I was surprised it was 43% of-----

Dr. Maria Kyne

That figure came from the HEA's statistics concerning STEM education, which are up on its website.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Okay. It was mentioned to us at a previous meeting, last week or the week before that. I was surprised because I did not think it would be that high. What was mentioned previously, however, was that when we then look at how people progress in their careers, and if we go to the level the witnesses are at, for example, for some reason women tend not to get to the professorial or high lecturing levels in universities. Why is this?

Dr. Maria Kyne

I do not think there are any barriers. For the most part, I think women do not put themselves forward, or they think they are not good enough to put themselves forward for these high jobs. They often have other commitments, including natural commitments at home and in other areas of their lives. They might, for example, have elderly parents. This means they do not tend to put themselves forward because of these other commitments. It is not their inability to do the job or a higher job.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Of course.

Dr. Maria Kyne

It is just that they often have other commitments, so they do not feel they have the time to do a higher-level job.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Okay. Would Professor Looney like to come in on this point?

Professor Lisa Looney

Yes, please.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I could see she was very anxious to do so.

Professor Lisa Looney

This is very complex. If we look at what happens at postdoctoral level, though, we see people enter into a career phase where there is contract-based employment. People do one postdoc, then another one and then another. If we look at the age profile of that cohort, that period begins to intersect with the time in many people's lives when they are beginning to start families, etc. What we see then is that many of those female STEM graduates move across into research support roles within universities, for example.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Okay.

Professor Lisa Looney

They also move into other professional support and management roles, etc. They may not persist in academic roles because to get such a full-time role now means people are heading towards their late 30s by the time it happens. The timing, therefore, is relevant in this context.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Is there an argument to be made that people should be given consideration for professorial roles in their early 30s or is that just not going to be feasible?

Professor Lisa Looney

The employment control framework has been a feature here which has meant it has been very difficult for institutions to hire people permanently. Many of the roles that have come up over the last ten years, therefore, have been short-term contracts.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Turning to Dr. Kelly, in terms of her sector and the HECA, could she say what percentage of lecturers in STEM in that context are female?

Dr. Mary Kelly

To follow on that point in general, I have found that while working as a woman in the higher education sector, we are probably not constrained by some of the conditions existing within the university sector. Many women, therefore, are in high positions within higher education organisations. I am not sure of the exact percentage but even within my organisation, many people in high positions are young females. This is great.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

The teaching of STEM subjects is an expensive business. Is there competition between third-level institutions when it comes to attracting appropriately qualified teachers or is there more supply than is required?

Dr. Maria Kyne

We have had a nightmare in the last ten years trying to recruit mechanical and electrical engineers because of the grade at which they are recruited. They can earn so much more if they work in industry instead of academia.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Okay.

Dr. Maria Kyne

We have stiff competition from industry because there is a shortage of people there. To attract people into the academic world, they would have to take a pay cut.

Professor Lisa Looney

Our recruitment is very internationalised because of that point. We scan the globe for the best people to come here.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the witnesses very much.

An Cathaoirleach

I have one question. It might be for Dr. Kelly but our other two witnesses might contribute on this point as well. In the last session, we spoke to witnesses about children going from primary school into secondary education. There is a huge onus in that context, whether on parents, primary school teachers or career guidance teachers and a void exists in this regard. I will not say to "educate", but to provide the student with information concerning subject matter and career choice. I know children at the age of 11 and 12 do not know what they want to do. It is important as well not to bamboozle them about what they will have to do if they pick a subject. Is there a void there and if so, how could it be filled and who would it be up to do it? Does Dr. Kelly understand my question and what I am trying to arrive at?

Dr. Mary Kelly

Transitions are always hard for children and parents, whether it is going from early childcare into primary school or from there into post-primary education. There is probably an onus on everyone in this regard. Listening to the earlier conversation, I think sixth-class teachers in future will have a view of what children's dispositions are, that is, whether they are more arts-based, tend to be more problem-solving or prefer collaborative learning. These are the sorts of things I would rather be hearing from sixth-class teachers, rather than them telling students to do biology or mathematics. It is too early at that stage. Children are still developing and growing. It is obviously important when they transition into first year that parents are then involved and brought in. I refer to the idea of taster classes and being allowed to choose everything.

I did chemistry and biology for my leaving certificate. I went on and did primary school teaching. Nothing is further from those subjects, but I was able to bring other skills because I had done those subjects. We should not, therefore, get too bogged down on labels and subjects. We should focus instead on the disposition of children and on keeping them central. There will be time. If we are committed to life-long learning, then just because students do an undergraduate degree in something will not stop them from going on to be something completely different. Equally, we are not even aware of the jobs that will exist in future. Why are we getting obsessed with this aspect? I would take a more broad-minded position to ensure children experience everything. They should have technological experiences but also experiences in art. We must guide children along the way but not tunnel-vision them into paths too quickly. This would be a much better approach.

Professor Lisa Looney

The power of an empowered primary school teacher who is confident in and around STEM subjects is great. They do not need to talk about careers or specific subjects at all. The motivation, interest and confidence they will imbue will carry through and be significant. In my statement, I mentioned risk and perceptions of risk. Culturally, there is a focus on safe options for girls in respect of careers etc. We must reshape how we talk about risk and careers, such as the idea of multiple careers. Equally, however, in a technology-infused world, we de-risk our careers by being confident around STEM and mathematics. These are concepts we have not begun to talk about.

My final point is a word of caution around role models. We have a tendency to put role models on a pedestal. I refer to saying, for example, "Here is Mary, who was always the best in her class at mathematics. She was tinkering with a motorcycle from the time she was aged three and look at her now, she is going to the moon". Most kids are sitting in their fifth classes, or whatever, thinking they are not Mary but somebody else. In reality, this approach often plays out differently in the heads of young boys and men. We must, therefore, be careful about how we use role models and what messages we get across, especially to younger students.

Dr. Maria Kyne

Academia and industry working together, however, can help to inform parents, students and teachers of what is out there, the scale and breadth of employment options and opportunities, the way the world is going and what careers will be available when students do come to the end of their studies.

There are many options. Working together, academia and industry can provide opportunities for people to be informed.

An Cathaoirleach

How are young primary school teachers educated in the context of STEM subjects and their importance? I imagine that when trying to break them into STEM, you will see that primary teachers aged 50 or older are in a different world from - and no disrespect-----

Dr. Mary Kelly

That is me.

An Cathaoirleach

I mean no disrespect to such teachers, but Dr. Kelly will understand where I am coming from. When dealing with young teachers coming through Hibernia College and late starters coming into primary teaching - an awful lot of Hibernia College students are in their mid-20s or 30s - how is that barrier broken and the importance of STEM explained without pushing it down their necks?

Dr. Mary Kelly

Very often, it is the more experienced teachers in schools who embrace a lot of initiatives, such as those based on Lego or Minecraft, because they have their classroom management sorted. They have confidence in their own teaching and so are often looking for something extra. With regard to the more junior teachers, the student teachers, we have explicit modules on the programme. The two-year professional masters in education programme includes a digital technology module that all students study. All students will also do science as a subject. With regard to the new revalidated programmes under the Céim standards, certain core elements must be encompassed by all modules. STEM and digital technology constitute one such element. It must be ensured that the area is continuously referenced, that the students are continuously taught and that they are helped to look at the opportunities to teach all of these areas across all subjects. This was mentioned earlier. If we just parcel it off into one segment of the day, it will not get the time or resources needed. It is about teaching young teachers to plan thematically and look at opportunities at all times. The biggest thing is the applied mathematical experience, that is, showing young people and young children where it applies in their lives, making it real for them and making sure that there are hands-on experiences and that pedagogies are inclusive. It is a continuous journey. From coming onto the programme at the beginning, they are hearing it continuously for the next two years . When they are out on their placement, they are assessed in it by us, as educators ourselves. It is a big piece of work but it is fundamental and we are very committed to ensuring that students graduate as good STEM teachers as well as good teachers of music, PE or any other subject.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a question for Professor Looney and Dr. Kyne. We had conversations about transition year at our past couple of meetings with secondary school teachers. Are we using transition year in such a way as to encourage people to pursue STEM subjects? We have heard a lot of views from various schools. Some schools just use transition year as another year, and some treat it really seriously. The Department of Education is doing a review on transition year at the moment and will a develop a model as to what has to be done. There is a model already but it may not be policed enough. What are the witnesses' views?

Professor Lisa Looney

Our touch point for transition year is often in the form of students arriving on campus to do a week of computers or chemistry. We see schools sending us students. We work particularly hard with DEIS schools in that regard in order to try to influence choices for the senior cycle and to have transition year students gain confidence in a particular area so that they will be open to choosing those kinds of disciplines and areas. There is variability across the country as to how transition year is approached. The value in allowing schools a great deal of freedom is undisputed. It is an important window of opportunity for us in third level to break down some barriers around what it is like to be in a chemistry lab at third level or to do some coding if you have not done it before. It is very valuable to us but there is variability. It is also sometimes the case that, when you offer something for a week, the school sends you a whole transition year class, only half of whom will potentially be interested in what is being offered.

That is worked out locally with partner schools. All of the universities work with partner schools in respect of their transition year, TY, programmes. However, this is again funded on a piecemeal basis. We are going back to a well or looking for a company to sponsor the Arduinos, tablets or whatever is needed. It is all done on a shoestring budget from our perspective. Getting some momentum behind sustained funding that can be relied on year in and year out would help in building those relationships. That TY intervention is a very useful step. We work with our access schools from the time students are in first year, providing maths support and so on. TY provides latitude to work with these schools in a different and possibly more creative way with regard to STEM.

Dr. Maria Kyne

We have had a similar experience to Professor Looney. Students come on site for a period or we go out to schools and give a module on, for example, engineering and then bring them into our labs. We help them to design a product and then bring them into the lab and let them build it. We let them use computer-aided design and computer-aided manufacturing, CADCAM. They build the product and bring it home. They then have a small little piece they created themselves to look at in their bedroom. That comes under the Engineers Ireland Engineering Your Future programme. The professional bodies help us to create these programmes and support us in offering them. We try to target girls in transition year in particular. We go into girls' schools that have no experience of the engineering subject at leaving certificate. This is completely new to them. That programme is run over six weeks. It is a long-term programme. They design something, build it in our labs and then have it at home to look at and say, "I did this."

An Cathaoirleach

I have a brief question which one of the witnesses might answer with a brief reply. Are there enough information days or fairs for second-level students in second and third year when they are starting to make up their minds about what they want to do in the future? Personally, I do not think there are nearly enough. There is the young scientist exhibition but there should be something like that, a fair day, to which all of those second- and third-year students could be brought so that they could be let go around and explore. If 30% of them got something out of it, it would be a great achievement and a great success. What are the witnesses' views?

Dr. Maria Kyne

There is WorldSkills Ireland here in Dublin every September. A lot of schools come to that but we usually reserve it for those at senior cycle. There is no reason we could not have second-year and third-year students as well because it is there. All of the apprenticeships can be seen in one go. Something like that is a very useful and simple way of doing it.

An Cathaoirleach

In second or third year, students are thinking about what they want to do for the future. It is very important to give such students information and to let them see what is available at first hand.

Dr. Maria Kyne

It is normally reserved for those in transition year or fifth year and less so for those in sixth year because we know they are busy in their leaving certificate year.

Professor Lisa Looney

What is really important to students in those years is the excitement around STEM. It is very stressful to be a 14- or 15-year-old and to be expected to have some idea of what you want to do because that is not where you are in your own head. A very small minority of young people have a very clear path. That has probably been set back even earlier and a fair will not change that. I am not sure the fair-type format speaks to where students might be at that stage of their career, but getting across what STEM delivers, its importance, the excitement around it and taking opportunities to enhance what might be happening from Monday to Friday in a classroom through various mechanisms is important.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank all of the witnesses for coming before the committee today. It has been of enormous benefit to committee members. I thank them for their attendance here today.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.54 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 28 March 2023.