Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Mar 2023

The Future of STEM in Irish Education: Discussion (Resumed)

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

I welcome Dr. Ruth Freeman, director of science for society, Science Foundation Ireland, SFI; Mr. Lee Reynolds, head of Ireland and Northern Ireland, Institute of Physics, IoP. Representatives of the Irish Research Council were also due to attend, but cannot do so due to other important business. The witnesses are here to discuss the future of science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, in Irish education. The format of the meeting is that I will invite Dr. Freeman, followed by Mr. Reynolds, to make brief opening statements of five minutes. This will be followed by questions from the committee members. As the witnesses will probably be aware, their opening statements will be published on the Oireachtas website following today's meeting.

Before we begin, witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in any sort of hate speech. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the Cathaoirleach to discontinue their remarks. I call Dr. Freeman.

Dr. Ruth Freeman

It is my pleasure to be here today to discuss this vital topic. The committee will have received the written submission on the future of STEM in Irish education from SFI director general, Professor Philip Nolan. That submission highlights the good work being done in Ireland to ensure we have a society that is engaging in STEM. It also puts forward suggestions of areas we believe would benefit from further attention and exploration.

Literacy in STEM is a key aspect of broad literacy and building 21st-century skills. An individual who is not being given the opportunity to understand and engage with STEM is an individual who is at risk of being left behind. Three-quarters of the fastest-growing careers in the world require a background in maths or science. Without access to STEM education, an individual will not only be at a clear disadvantage in terms of their employment prospects. There is an even greater risk. In the absence of an understanding of what STEM means and how it will influence their future and their society, individuals will be unable to participate in a meaningful way in discussions and decisions about what that future might look like.

We must ensure that diverse perspectives have the opportunity to contribute to how we shape our world through technological and scientific advances. While not everyone will go on to be a STEM professional, those that embark on careers in research are an essential component of a knowledge economy. We at SFI firmly believe in the importance of the provision of a stable and secure career track for the academic research community. After all, it is those researchers whom we depend on to educate our students and the same researchers that will make the discoveries that have the capacity to change our world for the better.

We are making progress in this regard and SFI warmly welcomes the review of State supports for PhD researchers, which was brought forward by the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Simon Harris. Urgent action must be taken in response to the findings of that review so that our research community is supported in a fair and appropriate manner. A portion of our society is at significant risk of being left behind. Fewer girls take up most STEM subjects, including physics, engineering, applied maths and computer science. Many girl’s schools offer a reduced range of STEM subjects.

Work is being done to address this gap. For example, I Wish, a volunteer-led community, is committed to showcasing the power of STEM to female secondary school students. This passionate group runs an annual showcase event and a survey which is a chance to ask girls what they think about STEM. The organisation's survey shows that female students are heavily impacted in considering STEM careers by three interrelated factors: gender stereotypes; lack of confidence in their own potential to succeed in STEM; and lack of information about STEM options. These barriers can be overcome through deliberate and strategic efforts from early years education. SFI welcomes the guidance on STEM time allocations in the new primary curriculum framework as a good start and looks forward to continuing work with the Departments of Education, Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and other partners to realise the actions associated with the STEM education implementation plan.

We must ensure that our educators are supported. We believe in supporting teachers to develop the innate curiosity of children through a hands-on, inquiry-based approach to STEM and we do this through the SFI’s Curious Minds and European Space Education Resource Office, ESERO, Ireland programmes. We believe teachers should be formally recognised for participating in these and other continuous professional development, CPD, programmes. Not only do we have passionate educators, we also have a passionate research community in Ireland whose members have already demonstrated their willingness and desire to step up and contribute to a national effort, such as during the Covid-19 pandemic. Significant expertise and insight reside within our scientific community across many areas that could inform the direction of Irish education.

The needs of the public should be central to policymaking. Through the Creating Our Future: A National Conversation on Research in Ireland initiative, the Government engaged the public in a conversation about the challenges and opportunities that people see in their lives and the role research can play in addressing them. The findings reflect a call for reform of education, whether at early years, primary and secondary, or in how we deliver postdoctoral education. Many submissions provided suggestions for curriculum additions across different levels of education, including in critical thinking, scientific logic and problem solving.

An SFI science in Ireland barometer echoes this, with a higher level of respondents reflecting that how subjects such as science and maths were taught in secondary school “put them off” the areas. A more recent such survey reflects that 79% of respondents feel capable of understanding science, but only 40% identify as the type of person who could be a scientist. We at SFI are committed to closing this gap in the public’s belief in their role in STEM and we will do this through our wide range of education and public engagement programmes. It is our belief that the gap exists due to some of the above-mentioned barriers related to how STEM is perceived and could be addressed through concerted efforts within the education journey, both informal and formal. Ní bhíonn an rath, ach mar a mbíonn an smacht. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

Mr. Lee Reynolds

On behalf of the Institute of Physics, I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee members for the kind invitation to join them today. I am the co-head of the Ireland and Northern Ireland office of the IoP. This is the professional body and learned society for physics in Ireland and the UK. It plays an active role in promoting co-operation in physics around the world and we strive to make physics accessible to people from all backgrounds. We work to ensure physics improves the daily lives of us all and our future.

One of the aims of the IoP in Ireland is to support the development of the next generation of high productivity industries to create high-value jobs to create citizen's futures.

These goals align strongly with Government policy such as Industry 4.0, Impact 2030 and the climate action plan. These are goals that will not be fulfilled without skilled people from a strong education ecosystem.

How will we create that? We need to consider a child and the tale of two systems. In the first system, we have a child who attends preschool and primary school with a focus on the child's numeracy and literacy, which is the foundation for any future in physics and STEM. The value of curiosity is instilled. The child need not know the names or full terms for the science they do because what is important is that it is building their curiosity for more. Above all, under-represented groups will develop a resilient identification with science so they can feel that science is for them. All of this is delivered by teachers empowered by their training and ongoing professional development to deliver these well. At secondary school, the child is introduced to a broad physics curriculum. They have a teacher with a physics background in a well-equipped classroom. They are excited about the future careers and occupations that physics can lead to, both at technical and graduate level. In the tertiary level, they can choose an apprenticeship in the rapidly expanding physics-based industries or go on to graduate study with the supports available to ensuring as many pursue their studies as far as they can or enter teaching. At every stage, there is a culture of inclusion delivered by whole-school equity planning that is about broadening the future paths of the child not narrowing them to traditional pathways or stereotypical roles.

I now turn to our second system. At primary level, numeracy and literacy skills of the child are more determined by their background and the quality of the school they attend. Stereotypes around subjects and careers start to be drip-fed. Teachers only deliver the STEM elements with which they are comfortable. In secondary school, the child's first proper introduction to physics is limited, taught by a non-specialist teacher within a restrictive curriculum in an under-equipped classroom. Leaving certificate physics may not be available in the school or is presented as for certain groups, elitist, solely a graduate study pathway and with few career options. At tertiary level, the child will find their skills in high demand and with student debts, further study or teaching is the less financially attractive option.

How will the child's experience be characterised? One child said:

I did continue with physics and now hold a doctorate in physics, but looking back I can see how many people tried to dissuade me. When I decided to study physics in college, my mother would repeatedly ask me if I was sure. Neighbours and acquaintances - adults - would always say "physics - what will you get out of that?"

Another said, "I love physics but hated how I was made to feel during that class and that feeling transferred over to other classes like maths, for me." Another said, "I was the only girl in my class and during experiments the boys always took the lead and did everything." These are three real student experiences.

The contrast between this current system and the best possible system highlights what has to be done. Ireland does not have an education system for physics and STEM that is fit for purpose. The building blocks of what is needed are a primary curriculum with numeracy and literacy at its core and STEM elements that teachers are empowered to deliver; whole-school equity plans at every level to build a culture of inclusion to maximise the number and range of people pursuing physics; a secondary physics curriculum that demonstrates the breadth and relevance of the subject delivered by specialist teachers receiving continuing professional development; 21st century careers advice – a system that signposts the way to the exciting, varied and rewarding careers of today and keeps pace with the rapidly changing world of work; new and growing apprenticeship options; proper PhD support and CERN membership for Ireland; and supports to enter teaching. Let this committee’s work be the start of building a system that is fit for purpose.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank both witnesses for their statements. We have discussed this subject many times. What is our current approach to PhD support? What are the negative consequences of having a PhD support system that is not fit for purpose? SFI called for urgency with regard to the PhD review. Will the witnesses expand on the urgent need to complete the review and what type of a framework they would like to see for that?

Dr. Ruth Freeman

As I flagged in my submission, the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science is carrying out an ongoing review of the structures to support PhD students. In reality, the stipend to students has remained the same for many years and it has been highlighted that it has not kept up with the cost of living for students. As a result, and to quote some of the researchers that we fund, they are either unable to attract students to take up PhD positions or the pool of students they can attract is restricted to those who can perhaps stay in their parents' homes within commuting distance of the laboratory where they are going to do their work. The rising accommodation costs and the cost of living mean that those who do not have those supports are unable to take up these opportunities. The implications for us, as a society, are that we are excluding people from certain socioeconomic backgrounds from taking up these opportunities in STEM and we are not opening up the widest talent pool we can to build a world-class research system here in Ireland. We, therefore, welcome the review.

The review will look at a number of different lenses. In other European countries, PhD students are regarded as staff members whereas here they are treated as students. I think the review may look at that aspect but certainly the level of the stipend is the urgent issue today. We would like to see it resolved as soon as possible so that we can continue to attract talent.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

The cost-of-living and accommodation crises obviously feed into that. I commend the organisation that protested outside the Oireachtas last week. It has a very co-ordinated campaign and it would benefit all of us if it succeeded. The review should be done as quickly as possible and the proper consultations done so we have an opportunity to put things right as quickly as we can.

I have a question on apprenticeships for Mr. Reynolds. Are there specific careers or areas that would lend themselves well to the apprenticeship model and for which there is currently no apprenticeship in place? Is it possible to have apprenticeships within that sphere on an all-island basis?

Mr. Lee Reynolds

There is certainly potential for co-operation on a whole range of fronts, in particular, around the issue of climate change. We are talking about a massive expansion of the green energy sector, which will require significant labour. Energy is a physics-based industry so there is plenty of potential for co-operation within that sector but it is not limited to that sector. With physics and other STEM subjects, the key point is that these sciences and this research will create jobs in five years' time that do not exist right now, so these disciplines need to be able to start training the people to take up those jobs. That is the fit. We would all like to be able to predict the future but it is not going to be a perfect science. There is going to be a massive opportunity, particularly with physics-based industries in which the number of jobs has grown by more than 40%. If that rate of growth continues, there will be 80,000 new jobs over the next ten years. However, we already know there is a skills shortage so even the current demand in Ireland is not being met. If Ireland is to fulfil its potential, that demand and future demand have to be met. A key thing in that is apprenticeships. With physics in particular, there is an assumption that it is graduate only. We did a major study into all job opportunities in physics-based industries and the physics sector. We found that half of the jobs were technical and required no graduate route. There is, therefore, a clear demand in the market that is not being met by the system we have.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

How are the opportunities identified in this area being communicated to all the primary and second-level schools and the career guidance system?

Mr. Lee Reynolds

Our general experience is that there is a disjoint. We provided the committee with a careers booklet. The careers include medical physicist; projects officer; financial analyst; planning and project engineer; IT risk management consultant; science communicator; PhD student; optical engineer; and an electrical apprentice. I mean no disrespect to the people who fulfil those roles but I would question how many of them would link physics to that breadth and depth of roles. Physics is seen too often as solely a graduate route, and that is the route people should go for, but it is much more than that.

I will just add this little point for physics. We have a bit of a branding issue in that if a person's career is connected to biology or chemistry, he or she will probably find "bio" or "chem" somewhere in his or her title. People can, therefore, see the direct linkage with the subject. Physics goes under 100 different names so people do not see the relationship or draw the linkages. We need to educate careers advisers of the breadth and depth of the opportunities that already exist and others that will exist.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank Mr. Reynolds. Deputy Jim O'Callaghan is waiting so I will ask further questions later.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank Deputy Conway-Walsh. I also thank Dr. Freeman and Mr. Reynolds for appearing before the committee and for their opening statements.

I will start with Dr. Freeman. When we talk about STEM, there is a tendency to recognise and overemphasise the science and mathematics part. Technology and engineering are obviously leaving certificate subjects but when do they become apparent in the primary course? Are they just included generally in maths on the primary course?

Dr. Ruth Freeman

No, I do not think they are fully included in maths, although numeracy is obviously a key part of all of those subjects. Coming back to what Mr. Reynolds said, for us it is not about necessarily labelling and the technical terms for the subjects in primary education. It is about harnessing the innate curiosity and problem-solving skills and that framework for inquiry-based learning, which we are very happy to see expanding in the new primary curriculum and, hopefully, in secondary reform more fully in due course. Therefore, we do see that. We see things like construction projects and engineering in there. We see computer science projects such as Raspberry Pi and CoderDojo. Those things are out there, although perhaps they are not labelled as such. We must, however, continue to emphasise all four elements.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

When we get to post-primary education, while I do not know the numbers of students taking technology and engineering, is it very specific? Is there a dependence on having teachers in schools who have the expertise in this area or is are these subjects more broadly available than I think?

Dr. Ruth Freeman

The biggest issue to call out is the lack of availability of the broader STEM subjects in girls' schools. Only 68% of girls' schools offer a STEM subject beyond the core subjects of biology, chemistry, physics and maths, whereas it is 96% of boys' schools. We have a clear lack of opportunity there for a whole cohort of learners to experience those broader subjects. Teacher availability will be an issue as well but there are probably creative solutions we can come up with. We learned during Covid-19 that while technological or digital solutions to teaching are not perfect, perhaps it is better than not offering the subject at all. Certainly, that gender inequality would be a cause of concern.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Is the cause of that just old-fashioned gender stereotypes or is it deeper than that?

Dr. Ruth Freeman

The honest answer is that I do not know. My sense is that it is reinforcement of things that happen from very early on. Even if we go back to toys, and that may sound very simple, but if we look at toy purchases and reviews of toy purchases, the majority of STEM-based toys are bought for boys. We can see that from the reviews. This is not an issue that exists in isolation in education.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

That is interesting. Before I come to Mr. Reynolds, one of the statistics we learned at this committee is that when we look at people who are doing PhDs, 40% or 41% of PhD graduates are women. After that, however, at professorial or high lecturing level, the numbers plummet. What can we do to try to rectify or change that?

Dr. Ruth Freeman

We have a gender strategy in SFI to try to rectify that issue. We need to do a number of things. We need to look at the overall research career and the stability and instability therein, which we know have a particular impact on those with caring responsibilities. There is, therefore, the broad research career.

In terms of the processes we use by which people are promoted and get research funding, we are looking at a number of interventions in that regard to try to level the playing field. We know that women are not peer reviewed as favourably as their male counterparts. Therefore, to redress that balance, when we have two applicants with equal scores and only enough funding for one of them, we will give preference to the applicant who is a woman. We have a number of interventions we are implementing to try to redress those imbalances. The stability of the career track is a really critical one.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Mr. Reynolds mentioned in his opening statement that it is essential for the teaching of physics that a teacher has a well-equipped classroom. From his experience of the Republic, do we have well-equipped classrooms generally?

Mr. Lee Reynolds

To answer from general experience, "No". This is where physics has its own specific problem. Physics is based around a number of principles. Therefore, much of its equipment is related to the demonstration of a principle; it is one-purpose kit. Biology, chemistry and other STEM subjects are multi-purpose and multi-use. That means that for a well-equipped physics classroom, one would buy more equipment, which takes up more storage space and requires more technical support. School budgets are what school budgets are, so there is competition, and that harms it.

I might also refer to the question the Deputy asked of Dr. Freeman.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Please do.

Mr. Lee Reynolds

I would stress issues of availability. There are schools in which the subjects just are not made available, and it goes beyond gender. The committee should look at Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools, DEIS. Our experience from engagement with students is that we also perceive that there is a rurality problem, whereby students in rural areas may be being denied it. It is not just the availability but also a secondary level of quality of teaching.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

When Mr. Reynolds talks about availability, is that primarily driven by the availability of teachers who can teach physics or is it broader than simply the availability of staff?

Mr. Lee Reynolds

It is driven by availability of staff. It is driven by the attitude towards physics being seen as an elitist subject, so schools naturally stream down the number of people they push in that direction. There are a whole range of issues. The one very important thing we welcomed in this inquiry was the breadth and depth of it. I know it is a huge topic for a committee to try to take one subject through the entire education system but the inquiry got it right in taking that step, simply because what we have within physics and STEM throughout the education system is a series of problems that become self-reinforcing and self-multiplying.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

What does Mr. Reynolds think of a proposal presented to and considered by the committee previously that, in order to ensure there is broader availability of specifically qualified teachers in physics, biology or applied maths, teachers would be employed by a series or group of schools in order that they could teach their expertise in a group of schools as opposed to being employed by one school as is the phenomenon now?

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

The IoP is a strong believer in specialist teachers. We have the Subjects Matter report, which demonstrates that the best experience for a child is to be taught by a teacher with the relevant specialist background. We are not tied up with the means of delivery but if that is the means of delivery which gets a specialist physics teacher in front of a physics class, we would welcome it.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the witnesses very much.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

How does Dr. Freeman envisage teachers being incentivised to complete continuing professional development, CPD, courses? I am interested in her view on that.

Dr. Ruth Freeman

It is certainly a challenge given the time that is available to teachers. We have hundreds of schools where we have teachers taking up the Curious Minds programme but also hundreds of schools where they are not taking it up. In working with our colleagues in the Department of Education, we believe the provision of more regional co-ordinators is the key support that is needed to work with schools. Rather than reaching out to them through email or post and inviting them to take on these initiatives, we believe they need more support because of the constraints they currently have. We aspire to grow those supports through the regional education hubs.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

A couple of issues came up in conversation with some of the witnesses at last week's meeting. What specifically intrigued me was the issue of primary education and primary school teachers. Dr. Freeman's generation might be more aware of STEM, although I do not want to be ageist in any way. Her comment to Deputy O'Callaghan about how some toys go to certain cohorts was interesting. Girls buy dolls and boys buy football games or whatever - there are different examples. How does Dr. Freeman feel we can - I am going to be careful here - inform primary school teachers about the importance of STEM subjects?

It was quite interesting last week where there were conflicting views on how to do that, with some of the witnesses pushing views on what subjects children should pick in the future while others said we should inform them at a young age of what subjects to take and encourage them to take STEM subjects. I would be interested in the witnesses views, if they understand where I am coming from.

Dr. Ruth Freeman

I think I do and I think it is really welcome that some of the conversation is moving even to the early years curriculum because that is where this begins. Education does not exist in a vacuum so any initiatives that sit around the formal education system and are supported to bring in parents and guardians are very welcome. We cannot ask teachers to do everything. It is less important that children are naming subjects they are learning but that they become comfortable with the principles and this idea of inquiry-based learning, that we are fostering curiosity, and that we are linking that to relevant topics in the world around them. It is important we support teachers to do that and that teachers understand the impact of how they are talking to children. For children under the age of ten there is no evidence to suggest that boys have innate abilities at spatial awareness or construction projects so we need to make sure teachers know that and that they are encouraging children equally. Some of that can be done through partnership with teacher training colleges. There are excellent programmes now such as student-teacher internships where teachers get the opportunity to go out to industry. There are lots of programmes and we need to keep supporting teachers and reinforcing that message across the board but also reaching out to parents and guardians.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

I will ask Mr. Lee to comment on that question as well but also, what can be gained and what impact would it have if Ireland were to gain membership of the European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN?

Mr. Lee Reynolds

From a student perspective, research positions open up, training opens up and potential careers in one of the main scientific organisations in the world open up. Contracts become available to Irish citizens, and it is contracts for everything and anything. I would also stress that there is an impression that CERN is just for physicists. I suppose I should not use the phrase, "Don't quote me" at an evidence session for an education committee but from my nearly 50 year-old memory I think that only 5% to 10% are actually physicists. There is then a huge chunk who are engineers and then there is a very large accountancy department and a very large legal department. Right now none of that is open to an Irish citizen so CERN membership buys a range of opportunities across a range of subjects. People talk about the fee. A fee is paid but it is through those different routes. It is a circular economy to a degree. We pay a membership fee but we get a lot in return and CERN as an organisation always wishes to work very closely with the country that becomes a member to ensure that it succeeds in getting that return. It is an opportunity and as the IoP is the body for the UK and Ireland, the fact Ireland does not currently have a formal membership of CERN, which is exceedingly rare in a European context, blocks joint research that could be taken forward.

In terms of the other question, we stress whole-school equity planning. This is a means to have the discussion on it. The emphasis is on the whole school it is not just about the principals or the teachers. It is about governors and parents and having that as a culture and a system so that all discussions and influences on a child are making their path as broad as it can be made. There is some OECD research that talks about how children could have chosen preferences for subjects by the age of seven. That is why it is important in primary school that we do now shut down what a child aspires to but broaden it. I also stress that in terms of equality and the delivery, the issue of gender is the canary in the coalmine to some degree. It is what we have figures on. Our experience is if we delve into a range of other representations from society we will find that gender is not alone in underrepresentation. That again is the advantage of whole-school equity planning. It impacts across the full cross-section of underrepresented groups.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I welcome Dr. Ruth Freeman and Mr. Reynolds, again. I know we had a chance to speak about all the work he does. I listened to the opening statements and I loved the way he listed out all the different careers, and one would never think physics was part of them. It is so true that so much of what we do and so many of these careers have a background and a base in science. Dr. Freeman was great in terms of some of the questions she answered there and I might come back to that in some of my questions. It is funny because at home locally there is a potential opportunity for schools to merge. When I was in school, as can be imagined, physics was in the boys' school and the boys came to our school for music, because we were obviously great at music. As well as that we had biology. It was challenging and that is what it comes down to. I do not want to count how many years ago that is but I suppose Dr, Freeman spoke about how 68% of girls' schools only have teachers in specialist subjects. There was an article in the paper yesterday about computer science and the lack of teachers in computer science and how it is now a subject. Dr. Freeman in Science Foundation Ireland there used to be programmes around teachers working with labs and researcher groups and I am curious if there is anything like that happening at the moment around that? Maybe a little bit about if there were courses, when I was an arts graduate, where one could do a subject like say biology or chemistry along with history and French. Last week the universities told us that there is the human capital initiative and things like that to encourage graduates coming through arts or other subjects such as business and so on to maybe consider the interdisciplinarity there. I do not know whether Dr. Freeman can speak to that.

Dr. Ruth Freeman

Maybe to start with teachers and the availability of subjects. It is an issue and Mr. Reynolds alluded to it as well. When we look at skills, these are skills that are in high demand in the economy when we look at vacancies around digital skills. To come back to teaching as a profession there are challenges there in terms of retaining those real specialists in teaching. However, it is so important that we do so we keep all of those opportunities open. I fully echo Mr. Reynold's comments that there are different layers of inequality in terms of access and people's perceptions of what they can do and what opportunities are open to different individuals. The schools question relates to the issue of what subjects are available. In terms of courses one thing that will happen soon is the merger of Science Foundation Ireland and the Irish Research Council and that reflects a change away from STEM existing in isolation because when we look at the role of STEM in helping us with societal challenges, technological solutions do not exist on their own. They have to be implemented by humans and by society so bringing in behavioural science and economics and thinking about things through different lenses is really important. We do see that happening in education more broadly so I would welcome that. Did I answer the Senator's first question?

Senator Aisling Dolan

That is perfect. I really like the point about funding for careers with a maths background.

Dr. Ruth Freeman

The Senator asked specifically about the teacher internship. To come back to that, there is a programme SFI is funding through its discover programme at DCU, which is student teachers as interns, the STInt programme. What that does is student teachers as they are going through their education they will do an internship in industry. It is a fantastic programme because many of those student teachers are coming form their own education and will go into teacher training education and then may go directly back to a school setting so it is really fantastic to give them the opportunity to get out and see STEM in action, I suppose. That is a fantastic programme run by DCU.

Senator Aisling Dolan

It is to keep the passion going. Is that what they want to do?

Dr. Ruth Freeman

Yes I think so and the real world implementation, showing how something can translate from the theoretical in a text book to an industry that is here in Ireland today. As Mr. Reynolds said, we do not know what the jobs of the future will be and they change all the time.

It is important we give our educators support and access to that broader environment.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Someone might have a maths or computer science background and go into the tech sector or coding. When we had the crisis in banking, for example, or when banks closed in regional areas because of consumer behaviour and so on, people from banking moved into other areas, such as caring, or came back into teaching. I am curious about bringing people in their 40s and 50s back into a teaching role. How can that be encouraged Ireland does not do well in lifelong learning. We rank very lowly on that. We are missing a huge cohort. We are great at getting people from primary school through secondary school and into third level. Hopefully, with the apprenticeship programme, we are giving people a few opportunities to get a qualification. How do we then encourage or entice people who have had ten or 15 years of a career to change into something else? I pose the question to Mr. Reynolds and then Dr. Freeman.

Mr. Lee Reynolds

The quick answer is money. Research mentioned in our submission-----

Senator Aisling Dolan

I do not agree that is the sole factor. We as a society do not encourage people in their 40s and 50s to think about two or three careers in a lifetime, which will be the case going forward.

Mr. Lee Reynolds

I concur with that as well. I was highlighting that there is research showing financial support plays a role. It is also about our broader attitudes to lifelong learning. The anticipation was of getting an education, entering a career and that is your career until you retire. That model is gone. It is highly unlikely that someone entering a career at 21 does not end up retraining at least once in their lifetime, given the job market we are in. We still have the mindset of, “That is your career now.” That is a significant challenge because someone who has had a good career and progressed is almost starting again. That person will have a certain position in life and responsibilities to fulfil. That is where the aspect of finances enters the conversation. There is a social attitude to changing careers.

Senator Aisling Dolan

There is a lot of burnout in today’s society, and mental health and stress issues. There is sometimes a way to benefit people who wish to have a change.

Dr. Ruth Freeman

Lifelong learning is particularly important in the field of STEM and we need to think about how to encourage people to see it as a viable option, accepting people have a lot on their plates already. I come back to one of my initial points around digital literacy. There will be a slew of opportunities available, perhaps free, for people comfortable working in the digital space, interacting with artificial intelligence and taking microcredentials online. I come back to the fundamental point that those who are digitally literature will have access to far more opportunities throughout their life. If we can give people those solid foundations, we will give them access to an awful lot of opportunity.

Senator Aisling Dolan

There is a step involving being able to access online courses and do things in the evening and at weekends when people are doing different roles and for people considering making career changes. That is something we probably need to look at.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

One of the greatest barriers to part-time and lifelong learning is cost. We need to look at that. If people pay tens of thousands for a master’s, what does that say about us? How many people are being excluded? Reference was made to the digital strategy. That creates all kinds of opportunities for us, including opportunities to widen the gap in terms of inequality of access. We need to be careful of that. Will SFI expand on the need to support indirect costs of research? What are those? What effect does underfunding have on researchers' and academics’ ability to conduct research? Is there a rural-urban divide in terms of the physics being taught in schools? Has analysis been done of which schools it is taught in and which it is not? Many people doing computer science, including my son, were never taught at secondary school but go on to do it at third level. It is almost in spite of the system that these people break through.

Dr. Ruth Freeman

I do not have the data on the rural-urban divide. We see a socioeconomic gap so that may well feed into that. On the indirect costs of research, education and public engagement programmes, at the moment we give approximately a 30% overhead to universities when we are funding research there, which is supplemented by the block grant for research given through the HEA. HEIs indicate that does not fully cover the cost of the research they undertake. That is challenging in maintaining the world-class infrastructure for research in place. When funding education and public engagement programmes, we do not currently provide that overhead. That is something we are considering in opening up access to those programmes. Not to overemphasise it, but it comes down to the funding available.

Mr. Lee Reynolds

We do not have data on an urban-rural split. We have our experiences of engaging with students, particularly in rural communities, where they tell us they wanted to take it to leaving certificate but their school did not provide it and when they took the option of going to the other school, it did not provide it either. We raised in our submission that there are a number of areas for which we do not have the data and we encourage the committee to ask the Department for that data. We think we know the answer but I do not want to make an accusation without proper data. Everything we have heard anecdotally indicates a problem with gender, with socioeconomic background, most likely with inclusion of LGBT and ethnic minority groups and, we strongly suspect, a rurality problem.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

We have identified those blocks. We need to see where they are and get rid of them.

Do the witnesses think associate membership of CERN would be okay or is full membership needed? Will they comment on east-west and North-South relations? Irish citizens in the North have to identify as British to access CERN membership. We urgently need to put the question.

Mr. Lee Reynolds

The considered view of the physics community we have engaged with is that associate membership now is appropriate. As I said earlier, CERN wants a country to maximise its membership and, therefore, it is better to go in like that, maximise it and then develop it. One of the issues that has developed in discussion with Senators, who have taken a number of motions forward, is that, in addition to membership, we develop a CERN strategy. That will build on membership and open the opportunity to go further later. A number of eastern European countries went in at associate membership, quickly fulfilled it and saw the benefits of going to full. The Irish physics community is of the view that associate membership right now is the appropriate level that it can maximise the benefits from and build for the future.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

I thank both witnesses for coming before the committee. It has been productive and will be of assistance and importance to the work we are doing.

Sitting suspended at 12.09 p.m. and resumed at 12.14 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

On behalf of the committee I welcome Ms Claire McGee, head of education and innovation policy at the Irish Business and Economic Confederation, IBEC; Ms Helen McMahon, senior strategy policy adviser, Enterprise Ireland; Mr. Neil McDonnell, chief executive, Irish Small and Medium Employers, ISME; Dr. Aisling Soden, project manager, talent transformation and innovation department, Industrial Development Agency; and Mr. Michael Fitzgerald, technical training and development manager, ESB Networks. I also welcome Mr. Donal Leahy, manager, strategic policy, Enterprise Ireland and Mr. Seán Murphy, senior manager, public relations and affairs, ESB, who are in the Public Gallery. Representatives from the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, were also invited but could not attend due to other business. The witnesses are here to discuss the future of science technology, engineering and maths, STEM, in education. The format of the meeting is that I will invite the witnesses to make a brief opening statement in the following order: Ms McGee; Ms McMahon; Mr. McDonnell; Dr. Soden, and Mr. Fitzgerald. They can follow one another and I will not interrupt them. This will be followed by questions from committee members.

Before I go further, witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity or engage in any hate speech. If they do, but I do not think they will, they will be directed by the Chair to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with this direction. I invite Ms McGee to make the first opening statement and timers are located under the screens.

Ms Claire McGee

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach as ucht an cuireadh teacht agus labhairt inniu. My name is Claire McGee, head of education and innovation policy at IBEC, Ireland's largest business representative organisation. It on this basis that I am delighted to join this round-table discussion on the future of STEM education in Ireland, as the outcome of these critical discussions and future policy actions will impact all people, all businesses and all regions across the Island. Talent and innovation is the burning platform for STEM. Ireland is known as a world leader in the development and manufacture of pharmaceuticals, ICT, medical technology and food products. In addition, Ireland is emerging as a leading location for biopharmaceuticals, data centres, and digital enterprises with a mix of start-ups, high-growth SMEs and large multinationals located here. The challenge now for industry is to retain its hard-earned size, scale and reputation by continuing to deliver world-class performance in all aspects of current operations. An appropriately-skilled workforce will be an important ingredient to meet that challenge. These industries need a reliable, strong, ambitious and highly qualified STEM talent pipeline to realise any future growth ambitions. Many businesses are concerned that the long-term prospects of the innovation ecosystem may be held back due to shortages of people skilled in science, technology, engineering and maths disciplines.

Why is this important? The history of Ireland’s rapid economic development across life sciences, IT, financial services, and technology industries over the last 40 years is an excellent example of how the core skills of a country can rapidly evolve to create new industries, wealth and a brighter future for all its citizens. However, unless we also invest in our ability to continue training future generations in these key areas, then the foundations on which our economic success has been built will become less resilient, less robust and less sustainable. Given the long lead times involved, we need look at investing more in addressing these skill-shortages as a matter of urgency. Talent will determine our success as a future location for business.

There are many more, but I will prioritise four key points today. What is needed? Number one is STEM literacy for curiosity, creativity and innovation and the enjoyment of teaching and learning science. This is where professional development for teachers will be critical. Aspirations in pursuing a career in STEM is normally formed between ages of seven to ten. This demonstrates the critical need to ensure that STEM education is enhanced within the roll-out of the new primary curriculum framework. Other recent developments across junior and senior cycle, including the introduction of the leaving certificate computer science programme, are long overdue but are welcome. These developments will also be instrumental in unlocking some of the gender balance challenges that currently exist across STEM education and within STEM careers.

Allied to this is ensuring the breadth of STEM subjects is available to all students at all levels. This challenge is particularly acute in single-sex schools and prematurely closes off career opportunities, with negative wider social impacts including enhanced gender pay gaps, lower earning potentials and pension gaps. Many European and international studies have highlighted the importance of strengthening teacher competencies in STEM areas and industry can play an important role in facilitating teacher training through placement opportunities for initial teacher education and co-teaching by industry staff, as well as opportunities for career guidance and service teachers to gain an understanding of the needs of the evolving industries.

Number two is investment in enhancing high-level STEM capacity across further and higher education. In addition to improving the pipeline and enrolment numbers across the tertiary and apprenticeship system, focus must also be on delivering a high-quality STEM education experience, with a strategic capital investment programme for cutting-edge technology, equipment and infrastructure. To educate, train and empower the next generation of scientists, engineers, architects, teachers, medical professionals, artists, apprentices and so on, Ireland's universities and colleges must have state-of-the-art equipment to provide a high-quality learning experience. IBEC has long advocated for greater investment in STEM education. The current unit of resource funding does not reflect the full economic cost of delivery. This must be addressed by the provision of capital infrastructure renewal, development and upkeep. Otherwise, universities and colleges will not be able to develop critical technology and digital skills. Innovative talent development models, such as the new consortium-led apprenticeships in STEM-related disciplines, need to be accessible and financially viable for all enterprises.

Another requirement is a new strategic approach to lifelong learning. Business growth strategies will need to focus on innovation, digitalisation and strengthening the skill base. To maintain this competitiveness, businesses must be trained in future STEM-related areas. The National Training Fund must be unlocked to support businesses to develop their workforces in new emerging STEM disciplines and technologies.

Collaboration with enterprise to strengthen the STEM education experience is also vital. My colleagues will probably elaborate on this.

STEM subjects are critical disciplines that must be embedded across the continuum of education. They are now permanent features of our everyday lives that present new skills challenges. For Ireland, this requires a deeper commitment to lifelong learning for all citizens, including our educators. The future of STEM education is our future. IBEC looks forward to ongoing productive and extensive engagement with the Oireachtas and key stakeholders in advancing this important agenda.

Ms Helen McMahon

I am a senior strategic policy adviser in Enterprise Ireland, EI, leading on client skills. EI welcomes the opportunity to present to the members of the committee on the critical topic of the future of STEM in Irish education and to outline the key priorities identified by us as being essential to supporting enterprise development and individual learners' career journey.

EI’s purpose is helping Irish companies to start, grow, innovate and win export sales. We work with internationally focused Irish enterprises across a broad range of sectors of the economy, supporting them to strengthen their competitiveness and productivity, increase innovation and realise their growth potential, thereby contributing to employment and economic growth across all regions. We also work with the network of 31 local enterprise offices, LEOs, through our centre of excellence, to support the growth of microenterprises across the country.

Enterprise Ireland's strategy for 2022 to 2024 is titled Leading in a Changing World. Our mission is to accelerate the development of world-class Irish companies to achieve leading positions in global markets. Central to this strategy is the commitment to support our client companies to address their skills and talent challenges. From recent client surveys undertaken by EI and from our daily interactions with client companies, we are hearing that the most significant identified obstacle to growth is the lack of availability of human capital and a skilled workforce. This is particularly evident in the STEM skill sets. Encouraging a responsive and agile education system is central to addressing the future skills needs of Irish-owned companies and must be central to discussions on the future of STEM in Irish education.

Enterprise Ireland has identified a number of priorities as essential areas for exploration. Direct engagement between education providers and Irish-owned enterprises is critical to addressing STEM skills needs effectively. This should be supported by clear pathways for engagement, with dedicated enterprise liaison teams in the education institutions. It is critical that decisions on the future of STEM education are informed by evidence-based skills data that address regional and national skills gaps. This will facilitate the development of targeted partnerships and skills interventions between industry, key stakeholders and the education system.

Funding models and programme design structures must be flexible in order to respond effectively to future skills needs, demographic challenges and student demand. Key to achieving this agile structure is the development of microcredentials and a recognition of prior learning, RPL process. This will support ongoing workforce development, empower learners to take ownership of their career development and support companies to develop talent attraction and retention strategies.

Diverse and inclusive businesses are more innovative, creative and dynamic. Supporting diversity and inclusion is a key priority and creating further gender diversity in the student body should be a key focus. In addition, there must be a continued focus on access to and affordability of education for less privileged groups by virtue of socioeconomic background, ability, ethnicity or other factors.

As we move forward, multidisciplinary teams that can work together cross-functionally will become increasingly important in the workforce. Key to the successful growth of workforce development is embedding in-demand technical and transversal skills, such as problem-solving, design thinking and teamwork, which will help to future-proof the supply of STEM skills in the economy.

Lifelong career guidance is critical to supporting learners through their career journey and encouraging upskilling and pathways of progression. This will support the building of awareness of progression routes into STEM, such as the critical role of apprenticeships and the opportunities for research talent.

STEM education staff at all levels must be provided with continuing professional development, CPD, opportunities, particularly as skills, technology and education practices evolve. There must be a unified tertiary education system. Lifelong learning is essential to sustain and develop a skilled workforce that can adapt and respond to changing skills needs. To achieve this, there must be clear and integrated pathways between further and higher education to support pathways of progression. In addition, it is imperative that all education providers are equipped with adequate infrastructure and technology that facilitates the delivery of high-quality STEM education.

Horizon scanning and forecasting future STEM skills needs are critical to build a resilient workforce and respond to changing market needs. It is essential that Government policy and actions relating to STEM education, such as the digital strategy for schools and the new national strategy for literacy, numeracy and digital literacy, are progressed and aligned to avoid duplication of actions and to support effective implementation. I thank committee members for the opportunity to speak to them. I welcome any questions they may have.

Mr. Neil McDonnell

ISME is grateful for the opportunity to make a submission to the joint committee on the future of STEM in Irish education. Ireland is now nominally one of the wealthiest countries in the world, which is a position we have not reached by accident. The quality of our education system has played a significant role in achieving it. While the OECD's economic survey for 2020 noted high performance levels of Irish school leavers relative to the OECD average, it also noted that this attainment level declines among older age cohorts. It noted that "measured literacy skills of Irish adults remained close to the OECD average, and numeracy and problem-solving skills were significantly lower for all age cohorts". Similarly, the OECD's economic survey for 2022 identifies deficiencies in enterprise resource planning and customer relationship management, CRM. It also notes difficulties in filling job vacancies in life sciences, information technology, construction, health and financial activities. We believe at least some of these are a result of deficiencies in STEM education.

The Central Statistics Office, CSO, notes a large divergence in labour productivity between foreign direct investment, FDI, and domestic firms, with a gross value added, GVA, per hour worked of €50.70 in the domestic economy, versus €95.80 in the total economy and €484.80 in the foreign sector. While we acknowledge there are significant statistical and reporting issues around this divergence, the nature of the high value-added services provided by much of our FDI sector must be recognised. We should aspire to encouraging more of our domestic firms to scale this productivity ladder and STEM will be key in achieving this.

Indigenous enterprise will not close the productivity gap with foreign firms without better STEM performance, especially among the management cohort. While there is a regular focus on employee skills, ISME has identified significant skills shortfalls among SME owners and managers as being material in explaining at least part of the productivity gap. For this reason, we continue to recommend the adoption of the blue cert as a basic qualification for all small business owners and managers.

The OECD's economy survey for 2022 identifies the need for greater training in digitisation, especially among lower-income groups, and more focused education in green and digital skills in our higher education system. The green and digital transition targets will not be met without improved STEM performance among Irish adults entering the workforce.

While Ireland's performance at secondary and tertiary levels is good by international comparison, this comes at the expense of a significant degree of overeducation relative to job requirements. This is estimated by the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, and the Institute of Labor Economics as being at 30% in Ireland.

On its own that would not be problematic, but we see our academic education system outperforming while vocational and lifelong learning underperform. This should be at the forefront of the advancement of STEM in the Irish education system in future. I am happy to take any questions the committee has.

Dr. Aisling Soden

I am from IDA Ireland's talent transformation and innovation team and I lead on client talent development. IDA Ireland welcomes the opportunity to input into the committee’s examination of the future of STEM education. Almost 1,800 IDA client companies employ over 300,000 people across the country, which is the highest employment in IDA-supported multinational corporations ever recorded. At the end of 2022, foreign direct investment, FDI, accounted directly for 12% of the workforce. In 2021, IDA client companies spent €31.5 billion in the Irish economy, had over €315 billion in total exports and accounted for an estimated 70% of all corporation tax paid to the Exchequer. However, global competition for FDI is intensifying and it is critical we continue to focus on Ireland’s competitiveness.

Crucial to Ireland’s value proposition for FDI is the availability of a highly skilled, agile workforce. IDA clients view skills as the most positive influence on and the greatest opportunity for business performance. With that in mind I wish to highlight several points for the committee's consideration. The activities carried out by multinationals in Ireland are wide-ranging, constantly evolving and highly dependent on a workforce with a depth and breadth of scientific, technology, engineering and mathematics skills. For citizens to avail of the opportunities presented by multinationals. it is vital our STEM education system continues to produce graduates with skills aligned to Ireland's industry sectors of strength, as well as responding to skills needs as industry sectors evolve and new areas of opportunity emerge. To meet the growing demand for STEM skills and ensure a strong STEM talent pipeline into the future, we need to initiate interest in and enjoyment of STEM at primary level and encourage uptake of STEM subjects at leaving certificate level and beyond. All primary-level students must have the opportunity to participate in STEM subjects and activities and the full range of STEM subjects should be available to all post-primary schools. Developing new learning methods and demonstrating real-world application of STEM and the alternative education pathways into a STEM career are required to foster greater interest in STEM subjects and greater diversity of students opting for them at post-primary and tertiary level.

Transversal skills such as critical thinking, complex problem solving, creativity, innovation, collaboration and communication are critical skills across the industry. Industry is increasingly focused on the T-shaped employee, who has a depth of technical knowledge and a breadth of transversal skills that enable them to work across business functions and be flexible and responsive to changes. Furthermore, with the increasing complexity of problems facing society, there is a growing need for professionals who can think across disciplines and collaborate effectively. STEM education from primary to tertiary level can provide students with a strong foundation in these critical transversal skills. The STEM education curriculum should focus on developing and appraising transversal skills in addition to academic skills and knowledge. Digital and data skills are now considered transversal skills and they have become foundational in many life and work contexts. IDA client companies are incorporating digital transformation of their operations as a key component of their site’s future growth strategy. STEM education at all levels is an opportunity to provide students with an understanding of digital skills such as basic coding, algorithmic thinking, and artificial intelligence, AI, applications. All of these are becoming part of non-IT roles. People in all roles across enterprise must be data-literate; that is, they must have the ability to work with and analyse data trends, derive insight and communicate data-based decisions.

Career advisers play a significant role in guiding students towards the best options and variety of careers open to them. It is essential that careers advice at post-primary level is strengthened and invested in. Career advisers must be supported to develop their understanding of the current and emerging industry roles available to students if they are to guide them on their learning pathway. Educators from primary to tertiary level need to have the requisite level of knowledge and understanding of STEM industry developments and technologies to teach students. At the further and higher education level there should be clear pathways for industry engagement to inform future teaching and STEM course development and to respond to industry needs and opportunities.

In conclusion, continued success in attracting inward investment depends significantly on the availability of talent with strong STEM skills. The future of STEM education in Ireland should recognise the continuous evolution of STEM skills arising from the impact of technological and advancement and the fundamental analytical and transversal skills that will become core competencies for the future of work. I welcome any questions members may have and thank them for the opportunity to speak to them about this.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I thank the Chair and members for the opportunity to address the committee. ESB Networks is the owner and operator of the electricity system in Ireland as well as the transmission system asset owner. As part of our networks for net zero strategy, we are committed to future-proofing Ireland’s electricity network and making the country’s goal of net zero by 2050 a reality. The strategy will underpin an energy transition that will enable electricity customers to adopt new technologies, products and services in the decades ahead. This will change how they generate, store and consume electricity. Crucially, we will need skilled staff to deliver on this vision. As experienced colleagues retire and we further enhance ESB Networks’ capabilities, we will continue to recruit colleagues across a wide array of disciplines from finance to marketing to data analytics over the next five years, along with almost 100 apprentices each year. These will, for the most part, be based in local communities all over Ireland. For this presentation we will focus on apprentices, how we attract them, how we support their training and their importance to both ESB Networks and the wider ESB community.

For generations, the apprenticeship system has been part of our philosophy and ethos in the ESB. Our investment in apprenticeships and in-career training is critical to ensuring we have the requisite skills to maintain, develop and enhance the electricity system so it meets the needs of modern Ireland. The apprenticeship model has worked extremely well for the ESB. We have an excellent national training centre in Portlaoise. Following a multimillion euro investment, our Burnwood 38 kV station at the centre gives apprentices and other staff a real-life environment in which to undertake practical training. We have over 300 apprentices in training at any one time. Network technician apprentices complete four apprentice training levels in our national training centre over 23 weeks. This is in addition to their State training, which helps to instill high safety and quality standards in our business. We have always sought to contribute to the development of apprenticeships in Ireland and worked closely with SOLAS and other organisations in areas such as standards and progression routes. Diversity of intake is essential for ESB Networks. This year 25% of first-year apprentices are female. This is the largest group in the country.

To continue to achieve the necessary standards, we must attract the highest possible field of potential candidates at recruitment stage. Apprenticeship promotion is multifaceted. It spans primary and secondary school levels and involves working with the teaching profession while also engaging with parents via social media. At primary level, we find early positive engagement with science is important to help students to choose STEM subjects at secondary level. In addition to presenting at the national schools summits, ESB Networks supports the promotion of STEM through ESB Science Blast. Through these initiatives, we promote STEM learning to over 20,000 primary school children per year. Both staff and apprentices actively participate. At secondary school level, events such as access networks, Apprenticeship Expo’s career days, Higher Options and SkillsIreland are important engagement opportunities. ESB Networks is a sponsor of and active participant in many of these events. We showcase both male and female apprentices as role models for their peers. In 2022 we visited 55 secondary schools in 24 counties. Over 50,000 contacts were made at these events. We have an annual programme for transition year students, who attend specially prepared events in our national training centre. DEIS schools are an important element, with the active support of our third-level partners.

To support the pipeline of STEM-confident talent in the future, ESB Networks supports a summer placement programme for trainee teachers. Feedback from this group suggests that across the EU, STEM subject decisions tend to be made early and often in primary school. Parents and teachers are key motivators. Reaching the wider secondary school community, including teachers and parents, involves an active social media campaign. Apprentices advocate a diverse, attractive and rewarding way to "earn as you learn" to degree level or beyond. To achieve authenticity, the material is created on site in ESB Networks, using actual apprentices and staff. We are linking with the Irish Career Guidance Association to arrange familiarisation events in 2023 and beyond. Over the years we have invested heavily in our apprenticeship programme, including non-traditional apprenticeships. These investments have been rewarded with a stream of talent into the company that is crucial to our business and to serving the nation in a very different energy future.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

I thank all our guests. Our first member to contribute is Deputy Conway-Walsh, in place of Deputy Ó Laoghaire. As we have quite a number of guests, I ask members to direct their questions to the person they wish to respond.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the witnesses for being here today and for their statements. My first question is for IBEC. When we look at the EU, we see that we are in the class of a strong innovator, but we are not innovation leaders like countries such as Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Netherlands and Sweden. In one sense the European scorecard belies what is happening underneath and is something we need to be cautious of. While we show 118% of the EU average, that is becoming smaller as well. We have to look in terms of global innovation. On the global innovation index, we have drifted from 12th to 19th and on the International Institute of Management Development world competitiveness indicator, we have drifted from seventh to 13th. This is all despite the fact that the private sector contributes the second highest amount of research and development spending in the OECD. There is a lot going on underneath the bonnet here. The long-term economic forecasting tells us that China, India and the US are going to be positioned at the top of the field in 30 years and the EU is not going to be. What do we need to do? How concerned should we be about those trends? What do we need to improve our performance outside of what has been said today? What do we need to do to ensure our competitiveness and ensure we are driving forward for the future?

Ms Claire McGee

It is quite reassuring that there is now a political focus on Ireland's innovation capacity. IBEC has made numerous submissions to the Government around the fact that there has been a slippage, as I would call it, and as the Senator demonstrated through the various indices she referenced. We are not investing enough in the public innovation ecosystem that is required for the ambitions of the country.

We should be investing about 2.5% of GDP but we have probably stagnated at about 1.2%. That is a major challenge for us, particularly if we look at the breadth of industries that we have all spoken about here this morning. We cannot really distinguish between the innovation ecosystem, our research system, and then our STEM talent pipeline into those. On the one level we talk about high levels of educational attainment but we are not at the races when it comes to innovation capacity. We are internationally communicating that we are and that we have many high-tech industries here.

How do we improve that? First, we need to get an enhanced and renewed focus on capital investment and current investment into our innovation capacity. That could involve increasing core funding into higher education or increased programmatic funding into programmes that enhance collaboration between industry and our research community. We also need to start looking at the State supports for businesses to innovate. One of the key recommendations in our pre-budget submissions for last year was the development of an innovation capacity diagnostic tool. We also looked at doubling the Enterprise Ireland innovation voucher scheme. We would have a significant gain for a low investment quality. Looking at our investment pipeline, we have our SFI research centres. We try to ensure we have the right connection between the research coming from the research centres and the translational element as to where that research goes next and how it diffuses into industry. We try to identify pipeline gaps between the offerings of the IDA and Enterprise Ireland. There is a renewed focus needed on the translational investment area between some of the bigger supports that we currently have.

To summarise, we need to really ramp up and scale our investment in innovation and our capacity overall. That requires nearly a doubling or tripling of the current figure. We are probably looking at a €500 million investment in innovation capacity to be where we want to be. We want to be on a par with Denmark and Sweden and what is coming out of Israel and the US. That is the class of country we want to be with. At the same time, we need to ensure our higher education system, which is supporting academic research, has the capability, capacity, equipment and infrastructure to be able to do that. We can have all this great innovation, but we need to make sure that businesses and people can access it. We have all spoken about the importance of lifelong learning. We need to ensure that our research centres and our Enterprise Ireland technology centres have the opportunity to train people in business to get the diffusion of innovation.

We know we have great research centres in manufacturing. We should be making sure that nearly every apprenticeship in the country that is related to manufacturing has access to those research centres. Joining the dots and greater investment is the way we can do it.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

This point is about the apprenticeship system that the ESB uses. I think it is a really good model. There are 300 apprentices registered at the moment with the ESB and 25% of them are female, a figure that I would like to see increase. Given the huge demand for the skills that apprenticeships can deliver, what are the main barriers to increasing registration in the private and semi-State public sectors because not everybody has the ESB model? What can they learn from the ESB in order to be able to increase the numbers because we are missing our targets all the time regarding apprenticeships?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

From our experience with apprenticeships, we reap what we sow. We make a great deal of effort to promote our apprenticeships. We do this through our apprentices themselves, who are advocates to their peers and act as a bridge to parents, teachers and schools. We have a very active campaign of school visits with 55 visits to different schools in 24 counties last year. Of those schools, 21 were DEIS schools. We also have a very significant programme of work with third level partners promoting science in DEIS schools, where people come in for a day and do technical skills. The plan would be that they would then choose STEM subjects in secondary school to give them an option of becoming an apprentice. We also do an ESB Science Blast programme, which reaches 20,000 school children at primary level every year. The plan there is to make science attractive and fun and to help people to break down whatever perceived barriers they may see around practical skills. It gives students the option to pick the right subjects so they can go on to be apprentices or in our case, to go on to be engineers from apprenticeships. There is quite a bit of work involved but it is tremendously rewarding. For us, apprenticeships have been the source of very highly skilled young people coming into our business, staying in our business and eventually running our business.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I welcome all the witnesses here today. I will direct my first question to Ms McMahon from Enterprise Ireland. I am a big fan of the viewpoints she put forward regarding what we need to do about education. How would Ms McMahon see the dedicated enterprise liaison teams working in our universities?

I am in agreement around the evidence base. On the regional and national skills forum I was very fortunate in that I had an introduction to the one in the west. I know that is a great mix, but sometimes those forums are quite large. What achievements are we seeing coming out of those or what impacts are they having?

I totally agree with Ms McMahon on the cross-functional skills as well.

Regarding the micro-credentials and the RPL, how are they working out from an Enterprise Ireland point of view? Perhaps the IDA could come in on those questions as well.

Ms Helen McMahon

Thank you, Deputy. Regarding the enterprise liaison team, we are seeing that client companies are finding it extremely difficult to navigate the system.

It is not because there are not enough offers but because there are a huge amount of offers in the system. There needs to be a bridge created for enterprise. Sometimes that is quite clearly laid out in universities and institutions, and institutes of technology, ITs. In some cases, it is not. It is the same for schools, in that there is not a dedicated enterprise liaison person within a school. For instance, I was part of that STEM group that developed a pathway for enterprise into the school system. We had a beautiful structure in place but there was nobody dedicated to that role to connect to enterprise.

Senator Aisling Dolan

When Ms McMahon was linking with the schools, was it the career guidance teacher in post-primary? Who was Ms McMahon's contact within a school? Was it the principal?

Ms Helen McMahon

What we found on the ground when that was put in place - Ms McGee was part of it also - is that usually within a school system, it is a career guidance person, who is usually a teacher, maybe doubling-up in a career guidance role, who in some cases was caught up in various key areas such as dealing with social media and bullying, and not enterprise engagement. What we are finding with the universities is that they are much more fleshed out enterprise-engagement systems but they double over in some cases between career guidance and enterprise liaison.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Is that the technology transfer office that Ms McMahon is speaking of?

Ms Helen McMahon

No. This is within the universities themselves.

Senator Aisling Dolan

The tech transfer office would be based a university.

Ms Helen McMahon

This is the issue. There is a liaison person in the tech transfer office, there is a liaison person maybe in the career guidance office and also some companies have direct relationships with individuals who are over key schools. There is not in some cases a clear entry route and that causes a lack of clarity and confusion in relation to enterprise.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I suppose equity for all students, and being able to have that connection and structured network set up, is crucial.

I might bring in Dr. Soden, on the IDA Ireland side, as well. It is great to have them all here with us. I come from a small town, Ballinasloe, and I am looking at the Roscommon and Galway regional areas. What I am trying to look at is how we should work to make sure we have students and graduates in our area who can fulfil the future industry need. How does Dr. Soden see companies engaging with schools or through universities? Would it be similar to how Ms McMahon is seeing it?

Dr. Aisling Soden

Yes.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Would they work together on that?

Dr. Aisling Soden

Yes. It would be a very similar story with our multinational clients as well. It can be difficult for them to identify who they should connect in with in a third level education institution or a school. There is not a clear pathway. It is often a personal relationship where someone was in that institution and they go back and connect in with a lecturer, a teacher or whoever he or she knows.

In terms of engaging with schools, a lot of clients are very eager to engage with schools and to facilitate those kind of industry programmes or opportunities for work placement, or even people coming in to speak to students about opportunities. However, it is hard for them to identify where to go. It is kind of location based and if you are in a city location, you are close to a school, schools interact with the company and the companies know where the schools are. That is also relationship based. When you are removed from that, however, companies do not know where to start, for instance, to engage structures.

Senator Aisling Dolan

They have not the structures for engagement.

Dr. Aisling Soden

There are structures and initiatives but it needs to be clear to companies where do they go to and who can they engage with.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I thank Dr. Soden. If I might bring in Ms McGee as well. Under IBEC, the apprenticeship part of this is important. Obviously, Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland are dealing with companies, as is Ms McGee, day in, day out. They are trying to make sure that they have the skill sets, and evolving skill sets as well. Lifelong learning is crucial here. How does Ms McGee see that the businesses she is engaging with and representing can take part in promoting that apprenticeship side as well and what model would Ms McGee see would work?

Ms Claire McGee

Picking up on Mr. Fitzgerald's point around how in the ESB apprenticeship is part of your DNA and philosophy, that organisation has been built on the back of apprenticeships.

Senator Aisling Dolan

It is excellent. It is probably the star performer.

Ms Claire McGee

We now have a diverse range of apprenticeships available. The big challenge is how do we get more employers and businesses connected into the apprenticeship system because it has not been part of their DNA and philosophy.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Is the block bringing in somebody who is totally green? How do you get over that block? It is a block for a small business.

Ms Claire McGee

That is a big challenge. First of all, we need to ensure that there is a single financial model for apprenticeship in Ireland. What we have now is almost a two-tier system. We have the consortia-led post-2016 programmes and the pre-2016 ones, which are predominantly more the craft-related apprenticeship programmes.

The newer model is a completely different financing structure. It is quite expensive for some employers to engage one of those programmes because they have to carry a significant cost around the mentoring, the training, the teaching and the off-the-job training. What we need to do as a priority is support more employers to be able to engage in it and then, like the ESB, make it part of their DNA and philosophy so that in time we will have future business leaders who have come through the apprenticeship model. It is my ambition to see future chief executive officers, CEOs, who have been apprentices in the past. That is when we will get a cultural and mind-shift across apprenticeship within industry.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Will we not have to get all those employees from Mr. Fitzgerald into every other company across the country?

Ms Claire McGee

Yes.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I apologise to Mr. McDonnell as I have just run out of time but I thank him for his contribution.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

Deputy Ó Cathasaigh will be followed by Deputy Jim O'Callaghan.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank the Chair and thank those on the panel for their presentations.

I am taken by the idea that we need to drive STEM all the way back to primary school, which is where I started out. Everybody started out in primary school but I started my working life in primary schools. I am not sure that we are equipping our primary school teachers to the point where they are confident to deliver STEM. It was one of my favourite subjects to teach but I maybe had a background in it that others did not have. It is a matter of building that confidence. I refer to the idea that people go into science in secondary, or on into later science in the senior cycle, and there is already a mental block against it. Science is seen as hard to do. It is not necessarily hard to do. It is incredibly interesting and there are all sorts of careers that flow from it.

I wanted to talk about what I see as a positive blurring between the end of third level, fourth level and access into industry. We have a good example of that in Waterford and a strong history of it in the former Waterford Institute of Technology, WIT, and what is now South East Technological University, SETU. In fact, even geographically, the IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland offices physically overlook the campus. I wanted to ask the panel about that idea of a blended space in between them. In Waterford, we have Kinetic Labs, which is right within the IDA Ireland enterprise centre but has really strong research links back into the college or, as it is now, university. We have the history and culture of the college, now the university, spinning off into the likes of FeedHenry and the Walton Institute. I wanted to ask, predominantly Dr. Soden and Ms McMahon of IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland, respectively, do they see a positive move in that direction that would blur the boundaries of our universities and technological universities so that they are more joined-in and linked-in to industry from the get-go, I suppose, even before people have completed their college career?

Dr. Aisling Soden

Absolutely, we see more of that. It is really positive. It is welcome to see. The SFI research centres have kicked that off with the greater industry engagement that they have, as well as with the SFI industry fellowship and such programmes that are actively trying to link researchers into industry and give them that experience.

At undergraduate level, we see more universities looking at longer placements in, for example, the third and fourth years of a degree. Companies really welcome that. They love having access to those students. Bringing them in, training them up and giving them that experience, potentially, they are looking at a career with them. In a way, the company has that opportunity to pitch itself to the graduate, especially in a very competitive space, to attract him or her to work there. Increasingly, we are seeing that model develop and expand and companies realising that if they want to access talent, they need to also engage with the institutions and access talent early on, in the third year or fourth year part of that degree, before students have made the decision on where to go.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

A positive development I have heard reported, particularly from Enterprise Ireland, is that we are getting increasing numbers of people from a STEM background who also have that entrepreneurial spirit and the fear of failure that might have plagued people of my generation is not there. If IDA Ireland client companies want top-quality graduates, they had better get their hooks into them early. These guys coming out of college are not afraid to set up their own business straight out of the gate. They are not afraid of that business failing and moving on to the next one.

There is a real cultural change, which is exciting. Maybe it is a change from Ireland of older times. I do not know if Ms McMahon wanted to comment.

Ms Helen McMahon

We are actually working on this area. We recently ran an event with the Irish Universities Association for more effective SME engagement with the university system. It is something we would also like to look at with the ITs. It is about the SMEs being much more proactive, as proactive as the multinationals are in terms of how they position themselves or sell themselves to graduates, and also getting much more involved in co-creation of programmes. We are also linking in terms of doing internships and bringing more internships into companies so that there is a proper structure in place, and that SMEs become more aware of what the benefits of research are for them in terms of solving business needs and creating more opportunities in terms of entry-level research.

It is as Dr. Soden and Ms McGee were saying. It goes back to integrated pathways and that unified tertiary education system, and bringing in talent and skills from a variety of different sources and that they have a pathway of progression through the system and they are supported through that and engage then with enterprise in that capacity.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I have an eye to the clock as I am under time pressure. It is the European Year of Skills. One of the recurring themes of this committee is a focus on further education, and particularly apprentices. We have discussed that cultural handbrake there has been on apprenticeships and that idea of lifelong learning that people are not finished their educational journey at 22, 23 or whatever. The ESB seems to have cracked it, in that it has an apprenticeship programme that, as Ms McGee said, is embedded in its DNA.

Is ESB planning anything to push that idea of European Year of Skills? It is something that happened late last year. Certainly, I, as a committee member, am trying to get my head around what it is that we should be doing as a government to push this idea of a European Year of Skills. Has Mr. Fitzgerald any great ideas for us seeing as the ESB has done so well in it?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

It is in our interest that our staff, whether they are apprentices or have gone onwards, have lifelong learning because there are standard improvements, better ways of doing things and innovations constantly.

What we have done is we have developed a pathway to a level 7 engineering degree for network technicians. After they have qualified in Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, level 6 as staff and they have worked in the field for a number of years, they have an option of applying for a level 7 degree in industrial electrical engineering.

We have partnered with a third level institute in terms of creating content for that which is applicable to our industry. It is around the transmission and distribution system engineering, as well as all of the other excellent skills that a third level qualification brings.

This is our third year running that programme and we have three classes running through that. It is a two-year programme on the job via apprenticeship similar to every other apprenticeship. It has been an excellent programme and is the way of the future. We will look to enhance that and maybe look at further qualifications for people in terms of technical specialisms within the green and digital economy and the agility that this brings in terms of the changes that are currently coming within the transmission and distribution system which we will be dealing with every day.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank the Chair.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the Chair and thank all the guests for coming before the committee this afternoon.

If I may start with Dr. Soden, obviously, the country, through IDA Ireland, has done a remarkable job in attracting foreign direct investment. To what extent are client companies of IDA Ireland or prospective client companies expressing concern about the ability to secure suitably-qualified STEM graduates or employees from the Irish education system?

Dr. Aisling Soden

In terms of them being suitably qualified, all our clients are very happy with the level of quality that is coming out of the Irish education system. As for whether they would like there to be more graduates, they would as there is obviously no competition for talent. We very much encourage them to look at alternative pathways as well and to look at apprenticeships to access more of the talent pool than only the traditional routes. In terms of the suitability of the candidates who come through, however, they are very positive about that. They view them as very agile and very responsive candidates that come through. They are very highly-technically skilled but it is just that issue of the pipeline and ensuring that pipeline over the longer term. To do that - we have all touched on that - involves us ensuring that we encourage more children into STEM at an early age and have them progress through all of the various levels and move into those disciplines. We must also look for diversity within the talent pool to broaden it through alternative pathways, not only in the traditional degree route but in looking at apprenticeships, for example, the unified tertiary system, and at further and higher education linking up and developing programmes so that people can move through to their chosen career.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I suppose part of the problem is as a result of our success. Presumably many of these highly qualified people who are going into business previously would have gone into the education sector and would have been teachers. Is an issue that Ms McMahon is concerned about that all or a significant percentage of the talent from STEM seems to be going into business and is not available to provide the education that we all need?

Ms Helen McMahon

That was highlighted yesterday in the research that came out of the University of Galway in relation to computer science, in that there is not enough attraction of teacher talent in that area because of that competition because you will get more money and benefits working in industry than you would potentially as a teacher. There is definitely a squeeze in terms of skills in that area in terms of attracting and retaining.

It is also about promoting that career opportunity. There are benefits in teaching and learning that suit certain individuals in a different way. It should be encouraged and grown. It is about promoting career pathways and empowering lifelong learners, and also creating that talent pipeline in teachers, as well as in terms of STEM professionals going into industry.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Mr. McDonnell mentioned in his opening submission about how there was this productivity gap. Interestingly, Mr. McDonnell said that it is not necessarily only with the employees. It also exists at management level. What is Mr. McDonnell's concern about the shortfall amongst SME owners and managers in explaining that part of the productivity gap?

Mr. Neil McDonnell

I suppose it is around the fact that, not dissimilar to our Programme for International Student Assessment, PISA, scores in our university education outcomes, a great many of us have letters after our name very soon after graduation but lifelong learning is not coded into how we operate. I refer to the skill set of owners and managers. A great many small business owners will not have gone to college. Even those who do or those who are in management positions in business think that a BComm, an MSc or something like that is a lifelong qualification, and it is not. They are decaying faster than they ever did before. That is where the microcredentials bit comes in.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Okay.

Mr. Neil McDonnell

Could I drop in two things that have come up previously that I need to chip in on behalf of the small business sector?

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Yes.

Mr. Neil McDonnell

On apprenticeships, we have brought in many different sectoral representatives to say that the supports available for post-2016 apprenticeships are not sufficient to allow a lot of small businesses take on an apprentice. That really needs to be looked at.

In terms of the research and development tax credit, if you look at the figures for that you will find that those businesses availing of the research and development tax credit are highly concentrated among the large enterprise sector and almost exclusively in the FDI sector. Among small businesses availing of the research and development tax credit, it is found to be administratively very heavy and tends to provoke a Revenue audit very soon after the credit is availed of. Therefore, businesses do not want to do it. I would suggest it needs to be looked at.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I will ask Ms McGee about IBEC. Does IBEC think that businesses in Ireland have or could have a role to play in enhancing the capacity and ability of schools to teach STEM, in particular, in secondary schools?

Ms Claire McGee

Absolutely. I was racing through my contribution.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I note Ms McGee mentions it.

Ms Claire McGee

I have it there. Many of the great challenges we are all facing which have been clearly articulated, such as the transition to the low-carbon economy and digitalisation, are big issues that will not be solved on our own. Therefore, we need to collaborate. It is important for enterprise and for business to collaborate with the education system because we are there in the vanguard of many of these changes.

How do we empower the teachers and the career guidance services, as Ms McMahon pointed out, who are very much dealing with the urgent issues of pastoral care in many cases and do not have the capacity, timewise, to focus on this evolving economy and outside? How do we keep them up to pace then? It is very important for industry, which has the capacity, to be able to go into the classroom and help students and the educators come up out of the curriculum and see the world and the opportunities around them.

Industry is doing this and I would very much like to do a project on adding up the value in both that in-kind and cash contributions the ESB referred to there, such as the ESB Science Blast and the BT Young Scientist & Technology Exhibition. How do we also support smaller enterprises to get more out of the education system and get the schools to get more out of smaller enterprises in that engagement? There are great opportunities to do this. We are probably disorganised in how we do it and it is a little of an ad hoc approach. It depends on the school and the principal. Some school teachers and leaders were also mentioned. We very much need to support school leaders as they are dealing with a great deal of change and many external factors. Enterprise also has a role there. How do we manage change on a peer-to-peer basis? I believe there are great opportunities there.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank Ms McGee very much. On the apprenticeships given out by the ESB, are they given to people when they just finish secondary school or does the ESB try to encourage the apprentices to go on to third level?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

The apprenticeship is completely open to everybody who meets the requirements of SOLAS for an apprenticeship generally, and for this type of apprenticeship, in particular. Everybody over the age of 16 who meets those qualifications can apply and there is no upper age limit. Of those candidates we receive as apprentices, some are school leavers and others are graduates who previously had a career. We have people in from various ages. Some are quite senior people in other professions who go back and then decide to take on an apprenticeship. We are a very wide and diverse group.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

That is very interesting and I thank Mr. Fitzgerald.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

I thank the Deputy and call Deputy Nolan to speak now, please.

Deputy Carol Nolan

I thank everybody appearing before the committee. My first question relates to apprenticeships. This is an area I am interested in. A total of 25% of the participants or of people taking up apprenticeships are female in the first year. That is certainly to be commended but is there any plan to increase this figure further and how can that be achieved?

My next question then relates to our witnesses' engagement with secondary schools. I understand that the ESB has visited 55 seconds schools in 24 counties. How can the ESB promote apprenticeships further? I also ask how its engagement with the 55 seconds schools went? Did the ESB feel that there was a change in mindset from the focus on academic subjects to a more open and positive culture towards apprenticeships within those secondary schools? Were ESB staff in discussion with career guidance teachers as part of its campaign to promote apprenticeships in that manner when they visited secondary schools?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

We are very proud of the 25% of apprentices made up of female candidates who joined us as part of our diversity campaign. We try to increase the number of applicants every year and we build on our numbers of applicants with a view to increasing diversity through that. We now have a policy in the company that up to 2030, we will be looking to take in 40% female applicants across every role, including apprenticeships.

On secondary schools, the Deputy asked how we can promote apprenticeships further. As referred to by her, we visited 55 schools in the past year in 24 counties and in all of those, our apprentices were our chief advocates. They were there meeting with their peers, and linking with parents and teachers as well, and creating a bridge to that cohort. These were very positive engagements with the result that every year we have 5,000, 6,000 or 7,000 applicants for our apprenticeships. This is a very diverse group of applicants.

The mindset towards apprenticeships, which the Deputy mentioned, is changing because people now see it as a valid career. When we look at the people who join us as apprentices, they are not all school leavers by any means. There are people who join us who have had other careers and forms of education. They see apprenticeships as a valid career opportunity where people earn as they learn and, from day one, they are within the area within which their industry is based. There is no sudden shock when one finishes education where they get a job and it is not what they thought it would be. They are in the industry they have joined from day one so they reach an understanding of it in that way.

On career guidance teachers, we have created a link with the Irish career guidance teachers group. We will inviting its representatives to familiarisation sessions in our training centre this year and we hope to build on that.

Finally, we support a programme where we do summer internships for teachers. This year we had a primary and a secondary teacher in a role within our training centre to try to further engage on how we can improve our own engagement with schools and with teachers, to make our apprenticeship more relevant and attractive to people generally across schools.

Deputy Carol Nolan

I have just one lead-on question if I have time to put it. Certainly, these developments are very positive and are to be welcomed. It is also great that there is a direct link with career guidance teachers and that they are in the picture as to what is available and so forth. That is very important.

Mr. Fitzgerald mentioned that there are between 5,000 and 7,000 applicants annually, which is also to be welcomed, but what percentage of those who start would he say will stay until the end? Do a high percentage stick with the apprenticeship until they are qualified?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

Of the 5,000 to 7,000 candidates, we have approximately 100 starters every year who are taken on as apprentices and who get through the process. Of those, we have a high retention rate of everybody, pretty much, who passes their exams, get their various qualifications through the apprenticeship and get to the end. Obviously, it is not 100%, nor is it in any sphere, because there is a quality requirement right the way through. Almost everybody gets through.

Deputy Carol Nolan

That is great and I thank Mr. Fitzgerald very much.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

I will come in now as I have a couple of questions to put to Mr. McDonnell. In respect of college, apprentices depend greatly on the small and medium-sized businesses through which to do their apprenticeships. Quite a number of businesses may not take on apprentices but what changes - and I appreciate that he has mentioned some of these in reply to Deputy Jim O’Callaghan - are needed and perhaps required to make it more attractive for businesses to take on apprenticeships and to promote them? As he will know, the Government has made apprenticeships and colleges a priority over the past 12 to 18 months because it sees the challenge that lies ahead in filling vacancies in different companies. If Mr. McDonnell was to have the Minister’s ear - and the committee will make recommendations in this regard - what are the recommendations he believes, coming from his sector and listening to his clients, should be put in place to make it more attractive?

Mr. Neil McDonnell

This is a sectoral problem and it differs in each one. On a separate committee, I have had feedback from the chairwoman of the Hair and Beauty Industry Confederation about the support for apprentices when they are away in college or doing other training, and not on-the-job training. This represents a significant financial burden and drag on a service business. The service businesses are the worst affected because, not alone is the business paying a person who is not working on the premises, but, in some cases, it is paying someone else to fill in for that person.

If that burden is going to be there in a tight-margin service business, the temptation is not going to be to take the apprentice through. It is going to be to hire someone else's apprentice. It is a lose-lose for everyone if we do not do that. The funding arrangements pre-2016 were higher. I will send the committee our previous submission on that.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

Does ISME get many inquiries - I will not say "complaints" - from small and medium-sized businesses which cannot recruit people in specific roles and cannot expand because the staff are not available?

Mr. Neil McDonnell

Yes. That is a perennial issue. We have a helpline where people ring in and raise issues. Part of it is a competition and remuneration issue. SMEs find themselves in intense competition with either large enterprises or the State sector. Down the country, the semi-State or State sectors, or the local authorities, typically will have a considerably better package available than many small enterprises. It is a competition and a cost issue for them.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

I thank Mr. McDonnell. Mr. Michael Fitzgerald is here from the ESB, which I compliment on its apprenticeship programme. I have no doubt that a large number of people want to get into the ESB apprenticeship programme. It receives a high number of applications and does not take in enough people. That is the nature of the game. Of those who complete the apprenticeship programme and become fully qualified, what percentage remain with the ESB?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

At the moment, pretty much all of them do. We have roles for everybody who qualifies. There is an interview at the end and people are then taken on. We take the full complement at the moment.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

Will the ESB increase the number of apprenticeships it takes? The number of houses is increasing and there is greater demand from ESB Networks. Does Mr. Fitzgerald expect the ESB to increase its apprentice intake going forward?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

From a training perspective, it is possible. However, from a practical perspective, an important part of the training is that trainees get field experience out in the network. They spend quite a lot of their time attached to local ESB depots where they have a mentor and competent network technicians looking after them every day. We cannot flood the market and local areas with apprentices and trainees all at once, so one would have to do that gradually over a period to ensure they are safe and can be correctly supervised and monitored.

While the training centre could train more people in order to do that safely, trainees have to be taken through the field and supervised. Obviously, there is a limit to how that can be done and how many can be done at any particular time, given that the ESB is also taking on experienced electricians at the moment. We have a programme of taking in people from the market and training them up. They will also be within the local areas doing their training at the same time.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

I know ESB Networks has some work overseas as well. Is that still the case?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

That is still the case.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

Do any of the apprentices do their training overseas or is it all done on the island of Ireland?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

It is all done through the training centres. They are based there, and then from whatever region they are in, they go to college somewhere in the country. They are also attached to the local ESB depot, wherever that depot is. In the south east, they could be in Enniscorthy, Arklow or Waterford, for example, so they are based there.

We have businesses abroad and some of the people who work there are engineers now, or they could be technicians who would have initially come through an apprenticeship. Many people in technical roles in the ESB have come through the apprenticeship and have developed further on in their careers.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

On the participation of females, 25% is quite a high rate because it is a big challenge for women to participate in apprenticeships. Did the ESB set a target some years ago to build up to where it is today and to build on the 25%?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

We have looked to increase the attractiveness of the apprenticeship to everybody across the spectrum of Irish society. We have done that through picking role models. When we do a recruitment campaign we promote our apprentices, including our female apprentices, as role models for their peers. Through that, we get more female applicants. That has worked very well because we have very high-quality female apprentices in the system who can then attract more applicants from among their peers. That works extremely well so we have done that. We have given them the opportunity within the media, social media, various training forums and school visits in order to promote female apprenticeships. That has worked extremely well. As I mentioned, there is a company target to take in 40% females across all roles, including apprenticeships, by 2030.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

I have one last question for Mr. Fitzgerald. He mentioned that DEIS schools are a very important element of the recruitment of apprenticeships, and I commend the ESB on that. DEIS schools can often be forgotten about. How important are they in recruitment? Some people have come through DEIS schools who are very good with their hands. Would that have been part of it?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

In 2022, for example, being a typical year, 96 students from DEIS schools came into us for a day of practical skills and fun in STEM subjects and practical skills. They took part in a mock interview to give them the confidence to be able to speak about what they had just learned. This is very important to us. We have a big programme every year. In fact, one of the strongest advocates of the DEIS and access programmes is a current serving apprentice who came through that model. He appears on various media campaigns and recruitment campaigns for us.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

The committee has heard conflicting views on my next question in the past couple of weeks. At what age should students be talking about STEM subjects, their importance, the choice within STEM and the choice of careers? Some of our witnesses said we should be doing this from primary school and educating primary school teachers to educate primary school children on STEM subjects and their career choices. Some say they have enough on their minds and we should not be doing this until children are in third year in secondary school. I am interested in the witnesses' views. They may not have, let us say, the qualifications but they understand the experience of being a primary school teacher and they know the education system. I put that question to all five witnesses; I am not going to let anyone escape.

Ms Helen McMahon

It depends on the communication plan that one puts in place and how one talks to younger kids. At that stage, it is about using role models, getting involved in creative collaboration and getting children to think about the subjects in that capacity, in terms of play, when they are quite young. They will not have the cognitive ability at that stage to really grasp the concept of career trajectories. However, once they move to the next level and are in secondary school, it gets much more into life mapping of lifelong career guidance and looking at career trajectory.

Obviously, that goes further in their career in terms of career pathways. Again, it is about mapping out the age of the individual and how you interact with people through different stages of their growth. It is also then about mapping out the roles so that the career guidance professionals can have the knowledge to explain that to children and parents, who are, as everybody knows, hugely influential on their development at this stage. It is not a one-size-fits-all approach, but a different approach. It should be through the entire system. It should be a different approach depending on the stage of development of the individual to empower that person to bring it through their entire life by building their capability.

Ms Claire McGee

I wholeheartedly agree with everything Ms McMahon has said. Young babies are already playing with STEM-related disciplines, they just do not have the language and their parents do not have the language around it. What we are trying to do through our education system is inculcate inquiry-based learning so they have the opportunity to engage with it. It is not a matter of saying, "Ireland needs X number of software engineers by 2030". It is about how we facilitate an inquiry-based mind and the growth mindset that is facilitated to it.

The research suggests that females and girls actually close down opportunities around STEM careers as young as ages seven to ten. We communicate with young school children about careers and we may bring people into the classroom. We talk about traditional career profiles. Maybe now is the time to broaden those out. We in IBEC often say - as do other business organisations - that many of the jobs have not yet been created. We cannot say with any definite accuracy what the jobs of the future will be. We just need to create the opportunity for people to fulfil their career ambitions.

There is no right or wrong answer on this. It is about providing the opportunity within the curriculum and outside the curriculum to be curious about all opportunities into the future, as well as making sure the pathways are available. I mentioned single-sex schools in particular, where some subjects are not even on offer, such as technology. We are therefore closing off the opportunities for people, particularly girls, to do those subjects. Therefore, it will be impossible for them to do them at a tertiary education level. We therefore need to have a discussion at an earlier stage. However, I do not think it should be couched in terms such as "X number of these jobs need to be filled by this time". It is about creating the opportunity and the pathway.

Dr. Aisling Soden

I agree completely with Ms McGee and Ms McMahon. It is about different messaging for different ages, including for children and parents. At primary school level, you want to nurture that curiosity and creativity. All children ask questions and you want to build on that. You want to build that love of learning and that desire to innovate and to inquire. That should be done through primary school. When they progress into secondary school, there should be options there for them to look at so they can do a science or technology subject. It is a matter of ensuring we instill the love of asking questions, curiosity and the innovative mindset at that young age, as well as ensuring they have those opportunities at secondary school. As Ms McGee says, not all STEM subjects are available, so that shuts off opportunities. That will have an impact on the pipeline further down when we are looking to fill different careers.

In addition, it is important for parents to understand the types of roles - not specific roles, but the career options and career areas. We often say, "You can only be what you see". Even for people in their ordinary, everyday lives as parents, you will only see certain roles. You might say in passing to your children, "That is an option for a career" and children pick up on that. It is about educating parents about the possibilities and the various sectors children could go into.

Mr. Neil McDonnell

I do not have a qualification in education, so I could not give the Deputy a very informed answer. As someone who did courses in practical engineering in a previous career, I know that one of the best ways of introducing children to this area is through play. It is one thing to go through the theories of powers, levers, angles, etc., but it is another to let kids play with ropes, blocks, tackles and sheeves and understand the mathematical game. A small, little, light person can lift a 100 kg weight if they apply the proper mechanical principles. That is easier said than done in the education system. However, if you apply play and problem-solving to education early enough, that is in many ways far better than sitting down to talk about algebraic equations or - I am thinking about the ESB - "volts over amps = ohms", and all that sort of stuff. There are easier ways of getting this into children at an earlier age.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

One of the previous witnesses this morning spoke about how research shows that at a young age, boys play with STEM-based toys more than females. I never thought of it that way, but I can see it in my own house where there are two girls and a boy from ages eight to 12. The girls have the dolls and I will not tell you what the little fellow is at. I think we can all guess. Does Mr. Fitzgerald have a comment on that? At what age should we start talking to them?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

The answer is "early". It needs to start in primary school. The research our student teachers carried out for us - this was across the EU and not just in Ireland - showed that these kinds of decisions are made very early on in primary school. It could be a matter of boys and girls doing certain subjects. That decision is made. Parents have a strong role as motivators in what children do. A multifaceted approach is perhaps needed to educate parents on how they might influence their children to take a broader view of STEM as an attractive career option.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

Mr. Fitzgerald was speaking about communicating with the parents. It is also up to our national broadcaster to educate parents. It is all about educating the children, but it is about educating the parents as well. We had a very good conversation just last week with one of our witnesses, who spoke about the education of parents and about informing parents. You cannot do this by bringing parents together into a community centre. The only way to do this is through the media of television and radio. There is an onus on our national broadcaster to educate parents on the importance of STEM and to educate them on STEM. A huge number of parents do not have a clue about what STEM even is, about its importance or about the opportunities and careers that lie ahead for the younger generation of sons and daughters.

Does anybody want to add anything before we adjourn the meeting?

Ms Claire McGee

I thank the committee for the opportunity. While the conversation has been very much focused on STEM, we also need to reflect on the engagement with the humanities and the interplay between the two. It is really important that we do not overprioritise one area and then as a result underinvest in another area. Some of the challenges that STEM-related industries are going to face in the future will be around regulations. They are not necessarily going to be solved by scientists. They will be solved by social scientists and people with experience in the arts and humanities. Any discussion on the future of STEM education in Ireland will probably have to be viewed through that lens.

One of the Deputies raised the European Year of Skills 2023. There is a huge opportunity there for Ireland and, in particular, for this committee. We would all probably be very happy to come back again and to have a further conversation on that. Members of the committee saw how we all had a very clear consensus on the need for lifelong learning. We may have another opportunity to engage with the committee on that in the future. I think that would be very helpful.

Ms Helen McMahon

I will highlight that we are partnering with the national apprenticeship office on a project called "One More Job", to support SMEs to attract apprentices into their businesses. This particularly relates to businesses that do not have a HR function or organisational development. It supports them to put the infrastructure in place and it links them in with the apprenticeship system. An event will be coming up in early April. I can link with the committee to update it on that support. That could be helpful.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I have a note of hope. Certainly, from our experience, quite a number of apprentices come to us from non-STEM backgrounds. The entry qualification is quite low. It is junior certificate. The initial entry has been set quite low by SOLAS. We get a number of people, particularly mature students, who have come through areas such as social care, nursing and other areas into STEM and into our apprenticeships.

We assume on day one that we have to provide all training. We do not make any assumptions based on people's backgrounds, what they know, what they have done in school, or anything else. Provided they have the basic core competency, we will be able to train them as technicians and engineers in the future. Some of our finest apprentices and network technicians, NTs, have come through from completely non-traditional backgrounds. Basically, it is never too late to be an apprentice.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

The clerk has just told me we have the winner of Young Scientist of the Year 2023 coming in next week to speak on a social science project. In fairness, the committee has brought in a huge number of young people to have their voices heard like never before. We have 15- and 16-year-olds coming before the committee and it is so important to have their voices heard on a range of different subjects.

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. I say genuinely that it has been very informative for me and I know for the other members of the committee as well. The witnesses are the leaders in their field in different organisations. I compliment them again on the work of all of their organisations. It is very much appreciated. Their feedback will be part of the ongoing work we are doing in the committee.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.42 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 18 April 2023.