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Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 25 Apr 2023

The Future of STEM in Irish Education: Discussion (Resumed).

I remind members to ensure their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of this meeting as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment, even when on silent mode. Apologies have been received from Deputy Ó Ríordáin and Senators Dolan and O'Loughlin. Are the minutes of the meeting of 18 April agreed? Agreed.

We will have two sessions today. On behalf of the committee, I welcome: Ms Evelyn O'Connor, principal officer, curriculum and assessment policy unit, Department of Education; Ms Karen Murtagh, assistant principal, curriculum and assessment policy unit, Department of Education; Ms Arlene Forster, chief executive, National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA; Mr. Diarmuid Mooney, acting director, curriculum and assessment, NCCA; Ms Andrea Feeney, chief executive officer, State Examinations Commission, SEC; and Ms Elaine Sheridan, head of examinations and assessment, SEC.

The witnesses are here to brief the committee on the future of science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, in Irish education. The format of the meeting is that I will invite the witnesses to make brief opening statements in the following order: Ms O'Connor, Ms Forster and Ms Feeney. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member has a five-minute slot, given the time constraints because we have so many members here to put questions. The committee will publish the opening statements on its website following today's meeting.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me, as Cathaoirleach, to discontinue their remarks, and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Ms O'Connor, you may begin, and the other witnesses will follow. The witnesses have five minutes each.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

I thank members for inviting the Department of Education to take part in this round-table discussion on the future of STEM in Irish education. I am the head of the curriculum and assessment policy unit with responsibility for STEM education. I am joined by my colleague, Ms Karen Murtagh, assistant principal officer, who also works in the unit and has responsibility for STEM. Nurturing children and young people’s STEM curiosity starts from early childhood, continues throughout their school learning journey, and continues beyond into further and higher education and the world of work. Along this journey we must enable learners to become active and reflective participants by providing a range of learning and formative assessment experiences that enhance their curiosity, inquiry, creativity and problem-solving abilities.

The promotion of STEM and digital learning within our education system is a key priority for the Department. It is reflected in multiple strategy documents, including our STEM education policy statement, the digital strategy for schools and the national strategy for literacy and numeracy. STEM and digital education are also supported by ongoing curriculum and assessment reform, teacher professional development, embedding of digital learning and advances in initial teacher education. It is of note that Ireland is one of only a few European Union member states that has a national policy for STEM education. The STEM education policy statement, which we published in 2017, provides a focus on STEM education in our early learning and care settings, primary and post-primary schools. The policy statement is supported by two implementation plans, the first of which was published in 2017 and the second of which - the current one - was published in March of this year.

Challenges have been identified, such as the lack of understanding of how to integrate STEM across the entire curriculum, provision of STEM subjects in post-primary schools, shortages of STEM teachers, unconscious bias and the need for further provision of professional development and resources.

The policy statement and the supporting implementation plans aim to address these challenges so as to ensure that all learners, regardless of background, gender, ability or location are given the same opportunity to develop their STEM skills. The policy statement acknowledges that school leaders and teachers require the necessary subject matter knowledge, pedagogical content knowledge and the appropriate skills, confidence and competence to embed STEM skills in learning, teaching and assessment in the classroom. It also recognises the need to encourage and inspire more of our children and young people, particularly more females, to engage with STEM during their education and training journeys. It identifies that a co-ordinated approach from the Department of Education and from the broad range of stakeholders with an interest in STEM and digital education is required in order for this to be achieved.

The digital strategy for schools to 2027 sets out the Department's policy approach on embedding digital technology across the curriculum and in all aspects of learning, teaching and assessment, and builds on the achievements of the previous strategy. Similar to the STEM education policy statement and its associated action plan, the digital strategy aims to ensure that all learners are given the same opportunity to develop their digital skills. The implementation plan for the strategy is currently being finalised.

The building and sustaining of a vibrant STEM and digital education ecosystem for all learners will require ongoing innovation in STEM and digital education underpinned by evidence. There are many areas where work is ongoing in order to further enhance STEM and digital learning within our schools. This work includes the development of a strategic framework for lifelong guidance, a comprehensive programme of work to support teacher supply with a number of measures being progressed, the development and implementation of recommendations in relation to gender balance in STEM and primary and senior cycle redevelopment. The Department will continue its work with colleagues in other Departments and with the wider education stakeholders, in order to provide a high-quality STEM education experience for all our learners that creates a positive disposition towards STEM and digital learning, and enables them to participate, influence and succeed in a changing world.

Ms Arlene Forster

I thank the Chair and committee members for the opportunity to speak today. I am the chief executive of the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA. I am joined by my colleague, Mr. Diarmuid Mooney, acting director, curriculum and assessment.

The council is a representative structure. It advises the Minister on the curriculum for early childhood education, primary and post-primary schools, and the assessment procedures employed in schools and examinations on subjects that are part of the curriculum. From a curriculum perspective, STEM education goes beyond individual or groups of subjects, courses, modules and units. It contributes to young people’s education and their lives by enabling them to acquire knowledge and understanding about how the world works; developing their critical thinking and problem-solving skills; fostering their curiosity and nurturing creativity, innovation and risk-taking; and empowering them to use all of this to respond to real-world problems. The STEM area features strongly in NCCA's work from early childhood to senior cycle education. This work is informed by research, close engagement with schools and settings, public consultation and by deliberation with the education partners, as well as by Government policy on STEM education. NCCA's current work involves the redevelopment of the curriculum for 11 years of a young person’s educational journey - their primary education and the senior cycle of their post-primary education. Today, I would like to highlight the STEM-related work planned as part of this redevelopment.

Looking first at primary education, Ireland’s first curriculum framework for primary education was launched by the Minister, Deputy Foley, on 9 March this year. The framework sets out a clear direction for the redevelopment of the full primary curriculum.

It builds on children’s early experiences supported by Aistear, the early childhood curriculum framework, and the current primary school curriculum, which dates from 1999, through introducing science, technology, engineering and mathematics education for all children from junior infants to sixth class. The framework also introduces seven key competencies, some of which relate to STEM: being mathematical, being a digital learner and being creative. These competencies will be integrated across the full curriculum and extend learning in STEM as children are supported to be curious, creative, confident and critical users of technology as well as developing and applying mathematical thinking and logic to solve problems.

Informed by the framework, the NCCA recently completed a new primary mathematics curriculum, which is with the Minister for consideration. This new curriculum is designed to foster children’s productive disposition, encourage playfulness with mathematics, emphasise mathematical modelling, use cognitively challenging tasks to stretch and challenge children’s conceptual understanding and promote "maths talk", encouraging children to express their mathematical strategies, thinking and ideas. Current plans would see this new mathematics curriculum being introduced in schools in the 2023-24 school year with work on the wider STEM curriculum area being completed in 2025.

Turning to post-primary education, a range of curriculum components including subjects, modules, short courses and priority learning units support STEM education in second level schools. As part of junior cycle, the 2015 framework supports learning through eight principles, 24 statements of learning and eight key skills, all of which play a crucial role in the development of STEM education.

Senior cycle has seen a number of developments that support STEM education now and into the future. These include the introduction in 2018 of leaving certificate computer science and a redeveloped applied mathematics curriculum in 2021. As part of the leaving certificate applied programme, STEM-related modules were recently redeveloped. These include mathematical application and information and communications technology along with a precursor module, introduction to information and communications technology.

Following the Minister, Deputy Foley’s announcement last year and her response to the NCCA’s senior cycle review advisory report, the redevelopment of senior cycle is currently a key priority for the council. As part of this, the NCCA is currently developing a schedule for the review and development of senior cycle specifications, which will include STEM curriculum components. These developments will be supported by a key competency framework, which will include key competencies that support the development of learning across senior cycle as a whole and which will contribute significantly to STEM education. Further information on the NCCA’s work on STEM education is provided in our written submission. My colleague and myself are happy to answer questions members may have.

Ms Andrea Feeney

I am the chief executive officer of the State Examinations Commission, SEC. I am joined by my colleague, Ms Elaine Sheridan, our head of examinations and assessment. I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation to attend this round-table discussion on the future of science, technology, engineering and mathematics education.

STEM education plays a vital role in preparing Irish second level students for the challenges of today’s society by equipping them with the fundamental knowledge and skills to meet the challenges of the 21st century. Education in STEM provides learners with opportunities to apply their creativity, knowledge and skills within and across disciplines and in real life opportunities, to engage in inquiry and analysis, and to imagine, question and explore. As noted in the STEM Education Policy Statement 2017-2026:

Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics (STEM) are at the heart of a technological revolution which is transforming the way we live and the way we work. If Ireland is to be at the forefront of this transformation, we must be a leader in nurturing, developing and deploying STEM talent.

The role of the SEC in supporting this policy objective is to ensure the provision of high-quality, valid and reliable assessments that encourage and facilitate the development of the knowledge and skills that are identified as important in the subject specifications in these disciplines. We also draw on our experience and expertise in assessment to collaborate with the NCCA and the Department of Education in exploring and interrogating potential enhancements to curriculum and assessment that could further contribute to continually improving the quality of student learning experiences in these areas.

The suite of technology subjects and engineering at both junior and senior cycle, in particular, have an established tradition and range of innovative assessment techniques that provide opportunities to develop and enhance key skills such as those referenced earlier. They also help to promote interest in and enthusiasm for the subjects. Recent reform at junior cycle has facilitated a further broadening of the assessment experiences for the key skills within this suite of subjects. At senior cycle, the introduction of computer science as a leaving certificate subject provides a range of assessment experiences to students, including those that require them to use their skills and content knowledge to solve problems creatively. It also provides opportunities for students to work collaboratively on project work. These key skills are essential for living and working in today's world. The assessment of this subject closely reflects both the practical and theoretical skills computer science education seeks to develop.

Although not so recent as some other developments, the changes made to curriculum, assessment and student learning under the Project Maths initiative represented a transformation in the way mathematics learning is experienced by students. While ensuring fundamental mathematical knowledge and skills remained important, the initiative significantly increased the emphasis on practical learning activities, developing students' capacity to apply their knowledge to a wide range of problems in various contexts and deepening their understanding of how mathematics is used in the world around them, including in scientific and technological contexts.

Currently, assessment of a significant majority of leaving certificate subjects includes both a written examination and a course work component. Since 2018, the SEC has moved towards digital forms of submission for coursework components across a range of subjects, as initial steps towards digital assessment. A revised leaving certificate applied mathematics specification will be examined for the first time this year. This specification has moved the subject beyond the traditional area of mathematical physics to a broader range of applications of mathematics. The assessment now includes a coursework component that provides students with an opportunity to apply key STEM skills such as engaging in inquiry and analysis. A revised specification in agricultural science was first examined in 2021. Revised specifications in biology, physics and chemistry are at an advanced stage of development and the assessment arrangements for those subjects will include both a final written examination and a coursework component.

The recent changes to specifications in a range of subjects at both junior and senior cycle include an increasing emphasis on the development of higher-order thinking skills and building capacity to apply knowledge in familiar and unfamiliar contexts. The assessment of these subjects also reflects this emphasis. Senior cycle redevelopment will provide further opportunities to embed and build on progress to date by extending the range of assessment components and including the introduction of digital assessment where it can appropriately and feasibly enhance the assessment and learning experience.

The SEC will continue to work in collaboration with the Department of Education, the NCCA and a range of other education partners on the reform and redevelopment of curriculum and assessment at both junior and senior cycle and to ensure the focus is on providing a fit-for-purpose 21st century examinations system that maintains a high level of quality and standards. The objective of the SEC is to provide an examinations system for the future that is fair, equitable and inclusive, in which all students have equal opportunity to participate and achieve, and one that is technology-enabled rather than technology-led. The SEC is committed to playing a central and positive role in the process of curricular reform at both junior and senior cycle. My colleague and I are happy to answer any questions committee members may have.

I thank Ms Feeney.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as teacht os comhair an choiste. This is only my second week as a member of the committee. I am still learning and am looking forward to learning more. However, my questions will not be the most detailed or specific at this point.

I found all the opening statements extremely interesting. As I looked through them, it caught my eye that an issue referred to in them is one that came up in our meeting last week, namely, the whole issue of gender. Last week, all the witnesses were women and we have a good, strong team of women here again today, which I am pleased to see. We have talked about the concept of promoting women and girls going into STEM and how important that is from the perspective of early education, primary level and secondary level. I was struck by the reference to how STEM is being brought into primary schools with an emphasis on pupils being mathematical and being digital learners.

I am interested in hearing where our guests see that divergence taking place. In primary school, where everybody is in the one class, I would imagine it would not be quite so clear that STEM in general is seen in a gendered way. Thus, my question is where do our guests see that change. Does it happen in secondary school when the subject choices are picked?

To give my background, I always had an interest in maths and wanted to do economics for the leaving certificate, but I was told it would be too difficult. I ended up doing home economics, which I am dreadful at. Then I wanted to do finance, maths and economics at third level, but I was told oh no, such-and-such did it and dropped out and it would be too difficult. I ended up doing economics and then doing a master's in finance, but my point is it was not until last week and this week that I actually thought about the impact those things had on me, even though I am more into mathematical things than other areas like literature and so on. Any of our guests may answer on where they believe the change happens and where we need to place the focus accordingly.

Ms Arlene Forster

A couple of things strike me from the curriculum perspective. The first important point is that in the primary curriculum, the area of STEM is for all children. There is no choice here, so they all have access and opportunity to learn in this area. From the perspective of gender and where children begin to show what we could refer to as gendered stereotypes in the STEM area, there is research showing that by the age of nine or ten years-----

Ms Arlene Forster

-----those gender stereotypes can become very evident.

Looking then at the future of STEM in Irish education, we have some great opportunities ahead of us. I mentioned the new primary mathematics curriculum in the opening statement. One of the important messages underpinning the overall philosophy of that curriculum is mathematics is for all and everybody can succeed in mathematics. That is a very important message. As to how that transacts in terms of teaching and learning, there is a strong emphasis on children being active in their mathematical learning, talking about their mathematical learning and talking aloud about how they are thinking and collaborating with each other. We know from literature that when you use that type of pedagogy, specifically that inquiry-based approach, in maths or in any aspect of science, it motivates and captures the interest of children. I hope an emphasis on that type of approach to STEM education will help us to motivate and encourage children and to ultimately work towards a more balanced approach when it comes to the gender take-up of STEM subjects as young people move into post-primary education.

As a final point from the NCCA perspective, when we are working on the development of curriculum specifications in the STEM area, we are conscious of the gender piece and it is part of the STEM implementation plan as well. We are very conscious of it. It forms part of the brief our development groups work to when they are carrying out the detailed work on the curriculum. We strive as best we can, from the perspective of the curriculum and the development of it, to ensure that it will appeal to both male and female students and will encourage greater uptake and generally greater interest in the area.

Those are some of things relevant to the question the Deputy asked, from a curriculum perspective.

That is interesting.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

Ms Forster has set out things well there in relation to the curriculum. The Deputy is right when she points out that in primary school, they are all doing the same subjects. It is as they are getting to the stage of fifth and sixth class that they are choosing and thinking about subjects they will take at post-primary level. It is at that stage we want to capture them, create interest in STEM and ensure they have all the information needed available to them. It is not that we want to corral children and force them into STEM subjects.

Obviously, we want them to choose subjects to the best of their abilities. We are conscious of that, and some of the actions we are taking in STEM are to ensure we provide the kinds of information that they and their parents need when they are making that important transition. Other actions we are taking in the implementation plan include sponsoring the STEM passport for inclusion, and this, in particular, is to support girls who are in DEIS schools. We are providing information on careers and equity of access to role models in the early learning and care areas, because we think it is important to start early. We are looking at revising the training with an emphasis on gender balance, equity, diversity and inclusion. We are exploring the development of a national accreditation framework for a whole-school culture change, and the idea is to address gender balance and unconscious bias as well. Ms Forster outlined gender balance in all the curricula, but it is also in our own policies and strategies, and our STEM action plan aligns with other policies and strategies of the Department.

These are just some of the actions that we are taking in the plan. I would also like to advise the Deputy that we actually established a gender balance in STEM group to help us to come up with the recommendations, because we also felt it was a very important issue to consider and address.

Ms Andrea Feeney

We are coming at it from the other end, which is the examination side, making sure that nothing we are doing in the examinations acts as a deterrent to any student from undertaking a subject. When it comes to development of our test instruments, we operate within principles and protocols for the design of test instruments, and one of those principles is ensuring that we avoid bias in the design of the test instruments.

Could Ms Sheridan explain what that means?

Ms Elaine Sheridan

When we are training our setters and drafters in the development of the examination papers, we set out the principles as Ms Feeney mentioned, one of them being freedom from bias. We make sure that we brief our people so that they are conscious. If they are using particular STEM list material within questions, or if the direction or angle of the question was based on what might be perceived as male-dominated examples or male-dominated stimulus material, we are very conscious to have a balance in it. It is really interesting to look at the junior cycle technology and junior cycle graphics and the leaving certificate design and communications graphics, DCG, or engineering papers. People will actually find that there is a very broad range of material. One who has not looked at these might think they would be very male-orientated examination questions and stimulus material, and they are not. There is a very broad range. It is a key aim, particularly with junior cycle reform and the introduction of new specifications at leaving certificate, to keep a very strong eye on that. We always have done so anyway.

That is very interesting. There are a lot of very interesting responses out of that. Generally, people would not have thought of that whole concept of the examples. We all remember doing our leaving certificate, and examples that could be in a question that would lead on.

I am quite surprised, based on what Ms Forster said regarding eight- to nine-year-olds, that this shift can be seen at that point, along with the concept of trying to make sure that any examples show that it is open to boys and girls. One of the things I remember from school myself was people with careers coming in, like engineers. I went to an Irish language-speaking school, so it was limited in terms of who could come in, but an engineer came in. It was a man, but he said that engineering was open to women. He was very good on the day.

Ms O'Connor mentioned equity of access to role models, and that is really important in the context of the whole concept of, "If you cannot see it, you cannot be it". I wonder if there is a formalised approach on that, going into primary or, specifically, secondary schools? As somebody who worked in finance, there is the concept of women in finance and banking. I worked in a really good bank, Northern Trust, where a lot of women were in leadership roles, and it encouraged young women coming in to show that they could progress. They had really great buddy systems and leadership initiatives.

It would be good to have a more formalised approach to ensure that women are being seen by those girls who are looking at going into some kind of STEM subject.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

It is an important point. We will try to create that equity of access to role models. The Department supports I WISH, which I am sure the Deputy will have heard of. It does considerable work in this space. We will be looking at whatever ways we can through our guidance counsellors and links with business into industry to get those kinds of people to come in. It is exactly as the Deputy says. Unless they see it, they do not know what is open to them. We will be taking steps in that regard to do more in that space.

It would be good to have a kind of formalised approach. We all know of different workplaces and different community organisations where there could be an excellent principal who has a massive focus on this. Another principal might be dealing with something else because they are extremely busy people.

I might move away from that topic. In her opening statement, Ms O'Connor spoke about the shortage of STEM teachers. This also came up last week. Have we ever looked at people who would have done PhDs? In my own school we had a teacher who had done a PhD in biology and he was then doing the course to become a secondary school teacher. Obviously, people with PhDs have to do teaching and in third level. Someone going to teach at secondary level needs to learn the curriculum and all that kind of thing. It is a two-year course on top of having done X number of years already at university. Have we ever looked at making it easier for people who already have say a PhD with that teaching experience at third level to have a quicker route into secondary school teaching? I do not come from a secondary school teaching background so Ms O'Connor can tell me if she thinks I am totally wrong on that. However, given we have that shortage, has something like that has been looked at?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

As the Deputy will be aware, teacher supply is a challenge at the moment notwithstanding that the CAO also shows an increase of 11% in first preference applications for post-primary undergraduate initial teacher education, ITE, programmes. Currently 118,000 teachers are registered of whom 22,000 teachers are registered in the in the STEM area. The Department is taking short-term, medium-term and more long-term steps to try to address what I suppose we could call the teacher supply crisis at present. The Department is providing additional places. Places like UL and the University of Galway have provided two-year upskilling courses to create more places and get more teachers upskilled to be able to teach and fill gaps where we have them. I do not know if the particular case of teachers with PhDs has been examined. The Teaching Council has created a new route 5 which allows student teachers to teach in schools and that would count towards their qualification.

If I were an Irish and English teacher, I could do a two-year course part time to get other subjects I could teach. Is that what Ms O'Connor means?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

It is that kind of thing.

Does anybody else have a view on that?

Mr. Diarmuid Mooney

At the moment the NCCA is looking at the potential of virtual learning environments. It was built on a request that came from the Minister. Through our own research we also picked up on the physics in the Gaeltacht initiative. We are trying to build on that now and looking at what is possible.

Mr. Diarmuid Mooney

There was a shortage of physics teachers in Gaeltacht schools.

This was an online initiative that was developed so that physics could be delivered in one school but other schools may join in at that point in time. We are engaging in a piece of research this year to examine the potential of virtual learning environments, VLEs, in particular in terms of subject spaces, the likes of transition year and non-attendees at school. Where there may be a shortage, we are considering the potential of the online environment.

That is a really good concept. I went to quite a small school and, as a result, we did not have a whole range of subject choices. One of the opening statements referred to maths and so on. Students need to do certain subjects.

I represent four offshore islands, one of which does not have a secondary school, another issue I have to raise with the Department at some point. The other three may have somebody who wants to study, for example, chemistry or something else, which presents a challenge. In this day and age, with virtual learning and so on, that should not be an issue. Students should be able to have that kind of access. Students living on offshore islands will not be able to go into Galway city on a Saturday morning to attend a grind school and spend extra hours studying to sit an exam. It prohibits them from being able to study something. That is really important. It is a really good initiative.

Another question I had may be for the next session. I refer to the concept of what we are doing to ensure that it is not just the private sector that is steaming ahead in terms of STEM and so on, while the public sector is in some ways left behind. Sometimes people do paid PhDs through the private sector and so on. We need to ensure the public sector goes along as fast as the private sector, if not faster.

I had another question on computer science for the leaving certificate, which the SEC's opening statement referenced. Last week, it said the uptake was quite small. I may not be correct, but I understood that the uptake of computer science as a leaving certificate subject was 14%. If that figure is correct, why is the figure so low? Surely, more and more young people are seeing the benefits and need for computer science and being able to learn about it. They and their families can see the jobs in the IT sector that are available. I did not study computer science for the leaving certificate. The opening statement said there is a practical as well as theoretical aspect. The success of project maths is based on the fact it is based in the real world and a practical subject. Does computer science need more of that? Is the uptake low because it is a newer subject?

Ms Andrea Feeney

I will ask Ms Sheridan to address the question on uptake.

Ms Elaine Sheridan

In 2022, approximately 1,600 candidates took computer science to leaving certificate level and, as of yesterday, we had 2,200 for 2023.

Ms Elaine Sheridan

The uptake is there. We must remember computer science and PE coincide, in that they were introduced during Covid. It was a massive achievement to introduce a new subject while were in the middle of a global pandemic. There is probably still somewhat of a knock-on effect because schools were engaged in remote learning and did not have an opportunity to set themselves up with the scaffolds, equipment and architecture they need. The lift we are getting and the increase in the entry data is positive. The number should increase in the future.

Ms Andrea Feeney

The Deputy might be interested in the assessment for computer science. Students complete coursework, which is a digital artefact they complete over a year. Even their final assessment includes an element of digital assessment. They sit an original paper and a digital examination artefact. All 2,200 candidates mentioned by Ms Sheridan will sit down at the same time on a date in May and take a digital examination. In terms of innovation, it is one of the most innovative subjects we currently provide.

Excellent. They have a chunk of it done before the actual leaving certificate. How much of it is then based on the written paper?

Ms Andrea Feeney

In computer science, the written paper is 70%.

Ms Elaine Sheridan

Some 30% is coursework and the other 70% is broken down into two pieces. Within the 70% written exam, which is marked and graded, there is a written and a practical piece that are done on the same day. There are two practical elements and a written exam. It is a very applied learning type of subject.

Ms Arlene Forster

I will add to what Ms Feeney and Ms Sheridan have mentioned about computer science. The other important thing we need to remember is that it is a brand-new subject in the STEM area. We have already gathered some data through what we call early enactment reviews. This is where the NCCA will check in with a curriculum, whether it is a new curriculum or an updated one, once teachers and the initial cohort of students have had full experience of working with it. We carried out an early enactment review in this school year. Some really positive feedback has come through from students, teachers and school leaders. To try to capture the essence of what we have been hearing from schools, it is fair to say that this is a real success story in terms of innovation in post-primary education at senior cycle.

Building on what Ms Sheridan and Ms Feeney have said about assessment and the curriculum in general, students are really positive. They talk about how motivated they are and how connected the learning in computer science is to the real world. They talk a lot about the opportunities they have to work together in a hands-on manner and to collaborate with each other. One of the teachers used a lovely phrase referring to lots of high-fives in the classroom. There will always be challenges, particularly in the early stage of implementation. There are things to which teachers and students have drawn our attention, but overall they are very positive about this new subject. Students and teachers refer to the extent to which this really promotes problem-solving. It really promotes creative and higher order thinking. From the perspective of assessment, teaching and learning, it is also a good example of where teaching, learning and assessment are very aligned. By that I mean that the assessment is really capturing the spirit and essence of what was intended as teaching and learning in the classroom. It is definitely a real success story. There is a lot for us to learn from it as we go into the rest of the redevelopment of the senior cycle.

Mr. Diarmuid Mooney

Ms Forster has pretty much covered what we have heard on the ground. As part of the early enactment review, we spoke with students who have left post-primary education and are now in third level education about their experience of computer science, having followed that pathway into third level STEM courses. One thing that came back strongly was the fact that the applied nature of the subject was a huge help. What the students were doing the classroom was so hands-on that when they moved into third level it was a seamless transition. They felt that the learning that happened in computer science really set them up for their STEM course at third level. The students and teachers we spoke to mentioned that there was so much alignment between what happened in the classroom, the applied learning tasks and the final examination. As Ms Forster said, it has come through as a real success story, which is good to hear.

Ms Andrea Feeney

We can build on that. I attended a conference recently on computer science and there were representatives from higher education there. Atlantic Technological University, ATU, has adapted the first year of the computer science degree programme at its Letterkenny campus to align more closely with computer science at leaving certificate. Lecturers found that the students coming in who had done computer science were bored by some of the stuff they were doing in first year because they had done it as part of the computer science subject at leaving certificate.

That is really brilliant

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

The Deputy might also be interested to know that one of the steps the Department took with this new subject was to put a support framework in place. This was to ensure we contributed towards developing a strong professional community of computer science teachers into the future.

The framework was brought about through collaboration with our teacher support services, with academia and various universities and higher education institutions, and with IBEC. It gave this link to business and industry. I thought this might be of interest to Deputy Farrell.

It is very interesting. I know I have taken up a good bit of time but I have another question. There are challenges and the witnesses have outlined them well. They have also outlined what they are doing to counteract them. If they had one ask of us as legislators, what could we on this side do that would assist in the work they are trying to do? This is something practical that can come out of the committee.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

We very much welcome the committee's engagement on STEM. It is a key priority for the Department and Government. It is important for the economy and future growth. We are very pleased that the committee has been taking an interest in the work we are doing. We read over the transcripts in preparation for this outing today and it was very interesting to see all of the issues raised. There were good lessons in them for us. The committee has contributed and helped us already and we very much look forward to any recommendation that will come out of its work on how we might do better and further improve on the various actions taken.

Ms Arlene Forster

To build on this I will go back to one of the points we made in our opening statement. We are redeveloping the curriculum for 11 years of a young person's education. This is significant when we think of the journey a young person takes from early years to the end of senior cycle. In this there are key opportunities for us to build on the successes we already have in STEM education and to push the boat out a little in terms of what we know about good teaching and learning. We have spoken about computer science as an example of success in this area.

We are at a time of great opportunity to build on this and to push ahead and be as innovative and creative as we can be over the next while. I refer to the work happening in senior cycle at present. One aspect of the redevelopment of senior cycle is looking at building flexible pathways for young people through senior cycle. We are in the early stages of doing this. There are great opportunities to try to find ways of ensuring that every young person has access to and an opportunity to continue their STEM education if that is the choice he or she makes. It is about looking at different ways of providing this for young people that make a stronger connection between their experience in senior cycle and the choices they make after school and pathways they follow after school. There are many opportunities in this. We have a lot we can build upon. As Ms O'Connor said, the discussions of the committee in this area will be very helpful to us.

Mr. Diarmuid Mooney

At a previous sitting, the Cathaoirleach mentioned apprenticeships and that we do not lose sight of the fact that when we speak about STEM there are multiple pathways. Third level is one and apprenticeship is another. Much of the thinking and many of the attributes associated with STEM fit very well with the apprenticeship model. It is very important for children coming through the system that there are multiple pathways once they get to the end of post-primary education.

Ms Andrea Feeney

I echo the comments made by my colleagues, in particular the reference by the NCCA to pathways and apprenticeships. In our context, the leaving certificate applied was mentioned in terms of the changes recently made to STEM subjects in it. The leaving certificate applied as a programme is dear to the hearts of the State Examinations Commission and we have said this at the committee previously. In looking at STEM and how we support it, we should not lose sight of those applied learners who are taking the leaving certificate applied programme. I note the committee has another conversation and another session with other stakeholders. Pathways to transition from second level into third level, further education and the world of work are particularly important.

I will go back slightly to some statistics on the numbers and the progression on the gender side. We can share these with the committee subsequently. We had a look at 20 years ago. The SEC is 20 years old this year. We celebrated our birthday on 6 March and we had a look at the statistics from 2023 with regard to participation. In 2003, 6% of the students taking technical drawing were female and in 2022, the figure had increased to 18%. Technical drawing was subsequently rechristened as design and communication graphics. The numbers taking DCG are at 18% of the overall cohort. Some 24% of students taking agricultural science were female in 2003 and that increased to 42% by 2022, which is quite significant. Even a more mainstream subject such as chemistry was at 54% in 2003 and that increased to 60% in 2022. That is not saying anything about the numbers taking those subjects. It is just a proportion of the overall cohort. There has been a shift. We have discussed many of the issues relating to opportunity in schools, and there are bigger contextual issues with regard to gender in schools, which feed into subject choice, selection and availability within the particular school. I thank the Deputy and the committee for their interest in this area.

Ms Karen Murtagh

In all of this, we cannot lose sight of this not just being about the world of work and pushing kids into STEM jobs. The skills they learn within STEM subjects in school are vital for everyday life such as problem solving and critical thinking. When the committee is considering this, it may consider STEM skills are needed for all learners, no matter whether they progress to the world of work within a STEM career.

That is a good point.

Mr. Mooney answered my question on apprenticeships and their importance. We visited the South East Technological University in Waterford on Friday last and in Grangegorman on Thursday. One thing that came through, especially in Waterford, was the importance of apprenticeships, what is on offer and the different avenues and pathways one can get to by taking the apprenticeship route. Ms Murtagh mentioned more joined-up thinking. Was she referring to Departments? Will she just flesh that out a little bit? I would be in full agreement, if she was referring to more joined-up thinking between different Departments and State agencies and looking at what is required. We often see different Departments and State agencies going in different directions. It is important we thread them all together and see what is required and what is a simple way of getting to where we want to get to by everybody working together. If Ms Murtagh could flesh that out a little bit, I would be interested.

Ms Karen Murtagh

When the STEM education policy statement was created, it was done by the Department of Education, but we have worked with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth on the new implementation plan this year, to have a greater focus on the early years side. We are also building the relationship with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, because the skills learners develop within STEM are relevant for when they go into higher education, further education or the world of work. It is about the joined-up thinking, because much of the time on the ground, there is considerable confusion about who is doing what. There are competing things going on. Thus, it is about having more joined-up thinking. As Ms O'Connor mentioned earlier, we are working along with business and industry throughout the development of the policy statement and the implementation plan. It is about everybody working together. We are especially focused in our work with the Departments of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, and Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science.

Ms Murtagh mentioned private industry. Is there more of an appetite to engage with private industry now than there was in the past, to see what is needed out in the field and for it to assist the decision-makers and educators in producing more students with better involvement in STEM subjects?

Ms Karen Murtagh

We say we cannot do this on our own. It is an ecosystem involving everybody who benefits. Our business and industry, local libraries, the wider community and others need to work together.

Sometimes between business and industry, and Departments, there is a disconnect about what they would like us to do and what is actually possible. It is about nurturing that relationship and ensuring that we can provide what is best for, and work with, business and industry.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

To add to what Ms Murtagh has said, business and industry, and the various discipline areas, are all represented on our implementation advisory group, which oversaw, as Ms Murtagh mentioned, the development of the plan, in the first instance, but also oversee implementation. We do tend to work very closely. We have our business and industry subgroup. We have worked very closely with them to even come up with the actions in the first place.

On apprenticeships, there are a lot more apprenticeships available now than what there was in the past and the apprenticeship.ie website gives loads of information. I know, for example, that guidance counsellors are working very hard to give that kind of information to students so that students will be more aware of the various pathways, including through apprenticeships and, indeed, the pathways that lead on from that.

Ms Elaine Sheridan

Apprenticeships are very important.

To build on the commentary about the leaving certificate applied or LCA, we have all referenced our work into the future in terms of the redevelopment of the senior cycle. One of the first big steps towards that, for the apprenticeship pathway and the LCA, has been the breaking down of barriers. As part of the LCA programme there is a mathematical applications module, which would not allow a student to take an apprenticeship position in certain areas because a person must have attained a minimum of ordinary level maths. While over the years we have had local arrangements in the SAC to facilitate a candidate taking ordinary leaving certificate mathematics while studying the LCA programme, this has now been formalised. The Department, the NCCA and the SAC have worked together to revise the programme statement for the leaving certificate applied. The barriers to growth have been broken down so that a student who is studying for the leaving certificate applied has access to studying leaving certificate established mathematics at ordinary or higher levels, which opens up a range of apprenticeships. If a person is trying to undertake an apprenticeship that requires the attainment of ordinary level maths then he or she will now be able to do so. We are in the early years of that but the plan is to make that more open, easier and flexible. The provision does create timetable challenges in the school environment. This is the first year of the scheme and it is a strong, tangible example of how we are building STEM skills for students and then, in working on that, opening up opportunities for them that they would not have had previously.

That is similar to what we proposed in our report on leaving certificate reform.

Ms Elaine Sheridan

Yes.

I wish to ask a broad question about the importance of introducing STEM subjects or a conversation on STEM in primary and secondary school. I have asked many of our witnesses who attended our meetings over the past number of weeks the same question. Some people have replied that there is enough going on in the minds of children in primary school, and someone else said that there are different ways and means to introduce STEM. What are the views of the delegations on that?

Ms Arlene Forster

My first point is to ask where does all of this start, which connects back to a couple of points made earlier. In Ireland, we use the Aistear curriculum framework in early years settings. While the framework does not refer to science, mathematics, computer science or even STEM, a lot of the key skills that we have talked about, and Ms Murtagh touched on their relevance to life in general, are strongly supported in the Aistear curriculum framework. That is a good example of a curriculum that supports experiences that are not necessarily labelled as STEM but develop creativity, problem solving and inquiry-based learning in very young children. .

In the case of the primary curriculum, as I mentioned in my opening statement we are redeveloping the primary curriculum to include STEM. Beyond that there are other ways in which the curriculum across our different sectors promotes what can be called STEM thinking or learning.

I am thinking of things like key skills and competencies which are embedded across the curriculum. Examples of those include being creative, being a digital learner and being a communicator. They are all key aspects that feed into inquiry-based teaching and learning and that ultimately become important if a young person chooses to take up subjects in the STEM area. They are ways of promoting foundational skills and ways of thinking that, in turn, can further support STEM teaching and learning. They do not require allocated blocks of time because they are promoted right across the curriculum. The curriculum development that is afoot is giving us an opportunity to embed some of the latest thinking around key competencies.

The final point I will make is around the types of teaching and learning that go on in classrooms. We spoke earlier about the success story of computer science. That highlights the importance of learning activities and experiences for children, whether they are in a post-primary classroom, in an early years setting or at primary level. Opportunities for children to try out ideas, to pose questions, to solve problems and to share their thinking with one another are the types of experiences that support and nurture STEM thinking and STEM learning. Those are a few of the ways the curriculum can promote this.

I see it through my children going to school and their different ways of talking about STEM. They do more practical work and are given a few weeks to do little projects at home. I see it more in fourth, fifth and sixth class. It is interesting.

Someone mentioned transition year. I am not sure who spoke about it. What more should we be doing or how can we do more to introduce more learning in transition year? Some schools use transition year very effectively; others less so. I know something is happening in the Department of Education to streamline the approach to transition year. What is the importance of transition year and what should we be doing to ensure it is more streamlined?

Mr. Diarmuid Mooney

For information, we have a group meeting today with the intention of working on a new programme statement for transition year. As part of that, we are looking at developing the student. To pick up on something Ms Forster mentioned, whether at Aistear level, in the primary curriculum framework, in the junior cycle or in the senior cycle, the fact they are built on key skills and competencies is a huge strength for developing a STEM mindset or STEM thinking. In transition year, there is freedom to allow students to be a little more curious, take risks, try things and learn from mistakes and successes. The new transition year programme statement is working towards developing the student as a whole and building on the experience of junior cycle to allow them to become critical thinkers and problem solvers. It is important that there is a unique space in the Irish education system that is transition year to give students the freedom to engage in trial and error. That is important going forward for our new programme statement.

The SEC has seen a huge number of changes in recent years. Does it envisage further changes in the next few years when STEM becomes even more important? What challenges will that impose on the SEC?

Ms Andrea Feeney

We are providing 41 curricular subjects at leaving certificate level and all but 12 of those have a second assessment component. As we said in our opening statement, while people think about innovative forms of assessment as something that is quite recent, if we look at subjects such as construction studies, wood technology and design and communication graphics which have been around for a long time, we see that forward-thinking forms of assessment are associated with them. They test students' practical skills. I had a conversation with someone recently about the construction studies room in a school being the most creative space in a boys' school. It did not offer music or art so that was the creative space in that particular school. We are currently providing those forms of assessment. Again, as I mentioned in the opening statement regarding senior cycle reform, the three science subjects, biology, physics and chemistry, are in that development space at the moment.

Where new subject specifications are being developed it is now being tied into senior cycle reform. Part of the policy objective there is to bring in school-based formal assessment to have a second component in every subject. This adds complexity but it was a journey that we were on anyway. For a long time, the objective for the senior cycle has been to have all subjects assessed, not only by means of the written examination but by another component that allows for the assessment of skills, knowledge and competencies that a written examination simply is not capable of assessing.

We do not want to harp on about computer science because we talked about it a lot but it is an interesting model of what is possible. The feedback the NCCA has gathered on the early enactment and students' experience is that all of this is building to a love of the subject and a way of working that is more akin to what they will do when they leave school and go into to the world of work. There is no doubt there have been challenges, and there will be challenges ahead, but we will meet them.

I apologise for being late. I listened to proceedings in the car on the way up. I want to follow up on one or two questions asked by Deputy Farrell. Ms Feeney mentioned that there has already been a focus on computer science. Subjects such as computer science, which is still tech crafts to me-----

Ms Andrea Feeney

DCG.

How is teacher supply specifically for those types of subjects? What are the projections? This question is not for a specific witness; any one of them can respond. Is the projection trending upwards in terms of the number of people who are qualifying? Will we meet the demand from the student population or are there particular subjects in that area that are more concerning than others in terms of teacher supply?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

As we mentioned, teacher supply is an issue the Department is taking a number of measures to address. Computer science teachers and perhaps maths teachers are areas that are of particular concern. The Department, working with the HEIs, has already taken steps in that regard through the introduction of upskilling programmes to help registered teachers to upskill over a couple of years in order that they can go on to teach such subjects. The Department is also taking other measures such as sharing teachers between schools to try to broaden the breadth of teachers available to teach such subjects.

Ms O'Connor is satisfied that the steps being taken can meet the demand.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

There is a big programme of work under way in the Department. This is an issue the Minister takes very seriously. As to what can we do, the Department is looking at all sorts of measures. Whether it is around substitution or having route 5 student teachers in schools, a whole range of steps are being taken. The Deputy will appreciate that this is not my area of responsibility but if he would like a note on the matter, my colleagues have given us a couple of pages of bullet points with all the steps they are currently working on.

I welcome the steps being taken on substitution. I should have said that I was a teacher for nearly 15 years. Many of the measures are very welcome but my focus is specifically on projected numbers and whether we will have the teachers to meet that capacity, particularly for new subjects such as computer science.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

The report has not been published yet but the Department has been looking at our teacher supply and what the numbers are. I expect the report will come into the public domain in the future.

Mr. Diarmuid Mooney

Until this year, only two third level institutes were qualifying technology teachers. Recently, Dublin City University, DCU, and Technological University of the Shannon, TUS, joined together and that programme just finished its first year this year. This means there are now three third level institutes offering qualifications for engineering and DCG teachers. That is a positive development.

I always think back to my wife who may not appreciate my saying this. She comes from a science background and works in a hospital setting. She always thought about coming back into teaching through that route. We had a big discussion about it and I put her off the idea.

I am interested in any figures or trends, if the witnesses have them. It is grand to say that we are going to try to upskill from the existing teaching pool. I became an Irish teacher subsequent to doing my history and geography degree. I upskilled myself while on the job through distance learning and online. External to the existing teaching pool. what kind of numbers are attracted back in from other industries?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

We have an 11% increase in first preference applications for post-primary undergraduate initial teacher education programmes. We currently have 118,000 teachers registered and in excess of 22,000 teachers are registered to teach the STEM subjects. In science we have 11,512; maths, 7532; computer science, 49; and engineering and technology, 3088. That is all the data I have at present but obviously it is a recognised challenge-----

Is there research or data specific to people who have come from outside of the teaching sector or have been attracted back into it?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

I do not have that data available to me today

Is any body or organisation doing research in this area? People might consider a career change and we might get people in from engineering backgrounds to pick up some of the subject shortfalls that exist.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

I am not aware of that step being taken. The Department is looking at retired teachers and teachers coming back from career breaks. The Deputy could have a new job ahead of him.

No thanks. The reason I asked the question is that I am one of the 118,000 teachers still registered with the Teaching Council, but obviously I am not teaching.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

Yes, it is a valid question. A whole lot of measures are being taken. I am not sure about people coming in from industry and whether anything is happening in that regard. I know that the Department is doing research into teacher supply.

I will ask one last, possibly contentious, question. This is to do with second level in particular and the postgraduate diploma. This shows that I was a teacher. Is the two-year study programme justified? Is it really necessary? The unions and many teachers will say that two years is too long when we are experiencing shortages of teachers in certain key subjects. Is there anyway that could be front-loaded or done more quickly and better?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

In recent years the higher education institutions have developed new four-year initial teacher education programmes in a number of post-primary priority subject areas, including maths, science and technology so there are moves in that direction.

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee today. It was very much appreciated. Their contributions will feed into the work we are doing on the STEM issue. I acknowledge that each of the witnesses knows and understands the importance of the subject. As Ms O'Connor said, everyone has learned a huge amount from each other appearing before the committee. Thank you very much for your comment on that.

Sitting suspended at 12.14 p.m. and resumed at 12.27 p.m.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome Dr. Mary-Liz Trant, director, the National Apprenticeship Office; Mr. Andrew Brownlee, CEO, SOLAS; Dr. Peter Cullen, head of research and innovation, Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI; Dr. Vivienne Patterson, head of skills, engagement, and statistics, the Higher Education Authority, HEA; and Mr. Paddy Howard, principal officer, innovation, research, organisations and programmes, Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. The witnesses are here to brief the committee on the future of science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, in Irish education. The format of the meeting is that I will invite the witnesses to make brief opening statements in the following order: Dr. Trant, Mr. Brownlee, Dr. Cullen, Dr. Patterson and Mr. Howard. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee for six or seven minutes and time will be given for the witnesses to respond.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me, as Cathaoirleach, to discontinue their remarks.

I invite Dr. Trant to begin, and the other witnesses will follow. They each have five minutes.

Dr. Mary-Liz Trant

Good afternoon to all. On behalf of the National Apprenticeship Office I am very pleased to make this statement to the joint committee working on the future of science, technology, engineering and maths, STEM, in Irish education and the important contribution that national apprenticeships can make in this regard. The National Apprenticeship Office is a relatively new body. It was established jointly in 2022 by the further education and training agency, SOLAS, and the Higher Education Authority, to oversee and manage the national apprenticeship system and to drive its transformation and further expansion as set out in the Action Plan for Apprenticeship 2021-2025.

The Government is now investing significantly in apprenticeships as a route to skills development.

This year, more than €250 million has been allocated to support a population of some 26,000 apprentices and almost 9,000 active employers engaged in 66 national programmes. This compares to an investment of €55 million in 2016 for 25 programmes.

Apprenticeships are currently making a substantial contribution to STEM education, with 40 of the 66 programmes now available now in STEM areas and with more than 20,000 apprentices involved. Uniquely, given that apprentices are employed for the duration of their training, this number corresponds to more than 20,000 jobs, as well as 20,000 training places.

Later this year, five more apprenticeships in STEM areas will launch, in occupational areas that include quantity surveying, digital marketing and media, civil engineering, and precision machinery engineering. These apprenticeships have emerged in response to a comprehensive business case made by the relevant industry representatives where skills needs have been identified. The content of each programme has subsequently been designed by industry and supported by education providers. So far this year, the National Apprenticeship Office is receiving on average one new inquiry a week from industry groups who are interested in developing new apprenticeship programmes to find and retain talent.

As set out in our submission to the joint committee, the apprenticeship model of training is located at the heart of 21st century industries in Ireland. Once apprentices are hired by an employer, they are learning and contributing immediately to the needs of the business. Innovation and new technologies that emerge are being experienced in real time by apprentices during their training on-the-job. In the Irish model, at least 50% of training must be in the workplace. In general however, 70% to 80% of training on current apprenticeship programmes is on the job. The involvement and oversight by industry means that the content of programmes can remain relevant and up to date as knowledge and skills evolve.

We believe that the work of the joint committee provides a unique opportunity to illuminate the full range of learning opportunities in STEM in Ireland. We propose that additional policies and practice aim to reach learners from the earliest stages of preschool education and into primary, second level, further and higher education, and through lifelong learning while people are in-career.

In our submission, we included three practical suggestions for the future. The first was to ensure that national and regional awareness and promotional campaigns include STEM apprenticeships alongside other options and include information on the specific opportunities and benefits offered to those choosing the apprenticeship route. Second, we suggest that additional targeted initiatives are developed to promote STEM opportunities and apprenticeships in STEM areas to reach young people from the earliest age. Third, we suggest that additional incentives be created for potential apprentices and for employers that result in greater diversity and inclusion in STEM apprenticeships. Particular target groups would include women, people with disabilities and those experiencing social or economic disadvantage. Since January of this year, a national committee is in place and working on access and inclusion within the national apprenticeship system. Increasing diversity and inclusion in STEM-related apprenticeships will form a natural part of the committee’s work agenda.

We believe that it is through a holistic approach that the correct next steps will be identified to not just consolidate but to grow the numbers and calibre of those choosing learning and careers in STEM. We look forward to the discussion with the committee today on the part that the national apprenticeship system can play in achieving the State's goals in this most important area for our economy and society.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

On behalf of SOLAS, I thank the Chair and members for the opportunity to speak with the committee today and discuss issues around the future of science, technology, engineering and maths in Irish education.

SOLAS has responsibility for funding, planning and co-ordinating further education and training, FET, in Ireland.

Through the 16 education and training boards, ETBs, and other providers, the FET system offers access to a wide range of learning opportunities and supports in every corner of the country, regardless of background or formal education level, and it offers a learning pathway to take you as far as you want to go. It currently serves a base of around 200,000 unique learners every year. SOLAS also serves as the co-ordinating provider for craft apprenticeships and works with the Higher Education Authority, HEA, to jointly manage the National Apprenticeship Office to oversee the national apprenticeship system.

Much of FET is technical, vocational and practice-based by nature, and as such, STEM education is a core part of the offering. We estimate that almost 20,000 learners go through specific STEM courses in FET each year. More than 9,000 of these undertake programmes related to manufacturing, engineering or construction. Some 8,000 undertake programmes related to ICT and around 2,000 undertake programmes related to science or maths. Annual STEM provision in FET has grown by 8% since 2018, despite the significant disruption caused by the pandemic. This does not include basic numeracy training offered to thousands as part of the ETBs’ adult literacy service, which is critical to building maths competency across the adult population. On this theme, SOLAS co-ordinates the delivery of the cross-Government adult literacy for life strategy, which places a strong focus on growing maths and numeracy competency for adults over the next decade. As I noted above, SOLAS also co-ordinates craft apprenticeship provision, all of which is focused around STEM-related training, with a current craft apprentice population of 22,470. There are also exciting new STEM apprenticeships emerging in areas like cybersecurity, software development and engineering. On green skills, SOLAS and the ETBs have made an ambitious pledge that every FET course and learner will have access to a module on sustainability and green skills awareness, with level 4 and 5 micro qualifications developed and an online and open access e-college course rolled out to facilitate this.

Growing STEM education will be critical: to meeting the needs of the future world of work; to ensuring we can respond to a digitally transformed society and economy; and to delivering the green skills which can enable effective climate action. FET and apprenticeships already play a key role in this regard, with significant capacity and ambition to grow this offering further. However, we are conscious that key to success will be generating more interest and demand for STEM-related tertiary education and careers. At present, there is insufficient exposure to the types of vocational and technical options and pathways needed to encourage more post-primary students to pursue this route, and the guidance tends to steer them towards more traditional academic directions. This also has implications for gender diversity, with these options typically more sparse in female single-sex schools. SOLAS and the ETBs have worked to provide more access to taster modules during transition year to encourage interest and skills development in STEM-related areas and to signpost future potential pathways. Areas of focus have included mechanics, aviation, electrical, plumbing, green skills and healthcare. As part of their strategic performance agreements with SOLAS, all ETBs are required to develop the transition year offerings further in the next two years. We have also been working closely with the NCCA to further embed this approach.

Our future FET strategy, transforming learning, sets out a clear roadmap for development which centres on the three core pillars of building skills, fostering inclusion and creating pathways. Under the pathways pillar we are committed to significantly expanding pathways between school and FET, with one idea to use FET capability to deliver credited vocational and technical options as part of a reformed senior cycle. On this, we are exploring the potential development of school-focused offerings in areas like construction, hospitality, technology, nursing and healthcare that might encourage interest and pathways to STEM-focused careers.

FET has a significant role to play in supporting the growth of STEM education, both in offering options and pathways at school level, and in delivering the technical and practice-based courses that can take people into exciting STEM-linked careers or onto STEM higher education degrees. I thank the committee for its time and I look forward to further discussion on this matter.

Dr. Peter Cullen

Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, is grateful for the opportunity to provide evidence to the committee.

QQI is the name of the Qualifications and Quality Assurance Authority of Ireland, established by the Qualifications and Quality Assurance (Education and Training) Act 2012. Our activities fall into four categories, as follows. The first is the qualifications system. For example, we maintain the national framework of qualifications, NFQ, as a system relating different qualification levels to each other, and we advise on the recognition of foreign qualifications in Ireland and of Irish qualifications abroad. The second is quality assurance of education and training. For example, we issue quality assurance guidelines and monitor and review providers. The third is the QQI awards in which, for example, we set standards for QQI awards, in other words, qualifications, and we award qualifications and issue certificates. The fourth is engagement, insights and knowledge sharing. For example, we consult, inform and collaborate with national and international stakeholders, we conduct research and report on quality and qualifications in the tertiary education system and we develop enhancement initiatives and host events to learn from and share best practice with stakeholders.

Much of QQI’s work is independent of the field of learning. The exception to this is where QQI operates as an awarding body, which it does for further education and training and for private and independent providers of higher education.

Why are STEM disciplines important? Humankind’s survival depends critically on STEM disciplines. While non-STEM disciplines are important too, STEM disciplines are required to tackle some of the biggest challenges we face, such as global warming. The EU recommendation on key competences for lifelong learning has identified eight key competences, and one of these is STEM. In this context, we note that QQI, as an FET awarding body, is developing qualifications standards based on these key competences at NFQ levels 1 to 4 to guide developers of programmes of education and training leading to QQI awards at these levels.

We think basic STEM competence needs to be developed and supported from the early learning and care setting through to senior cycle and, where necessary, beyond. This does not mean teaching chemistry in preschool, but rather in developing and rewarding early learners’ curiosity, capacity to see patterns and analogues, and how these help us to predict things about the world, even where there is uncertainty. This is feasible because while STEM disciplines are extremely diverse, they are built on human traits that can be developed from a young age, namely, imagination, daring, curiosity, persistence, honesty, trust, openness, collaboration, a commitment to getting to the roots of things and, where appropriate, empiricism.

I will turn to certification, lifelong learning and the national framework of qualifications. Lifelong learning and change are already well embedded. With good educational foundations, some people can and do learn new skills without returning to formal education and without requiring further qualifications. Nevertheless, additional qualifications are sometimes necessary, and our national framework of qualifications provides the infrastructure for the creation not only of major awards, such as bachelor's degrees, but also minor, special purpose, supplemental and professional awards for lifelong learners, for example, micro-credentials.

The next point concerns access, progression and maths for STEM. Our universities and higher education institutions provide the primary educational formation for many STEM disciplines, and it is important that all members of society who could benefit from this formation can avail of it. The dominant route into higher education is via the leaving certificate. It may be useful to reflect on whether this route is overly dominant and consider further developing alternative pathways alongside it, such as those involving further education and training.

Higher leaving certificate mathematics, or equivalent, is required for some STEM programmes and, therefore, failure to achieve this type of qualification before leaving school can be an obstacle to progress. QQI established a maths for STEM qualification in 2014, which provides an opportunity for people to gain the mathematical foundations required for STEM programmes without having to go back to secondary school. However, the take-up of this qualification has been relatively low.

I next turn to STEM in the provision of education and training. Though probably not what was intended for discussion here, we think it is important to think about the potential of STEM to transform how education and training are provided and by whom.

ICT has already had a major impact on teaching, learning and assessment but we suspect this is just the tip of the iceberg, as recent media interest in artificial intelligence exemplifies. QQI will soon be consulting on draft statutory quality assurance guidelines for providers of programmes supported by digital education.

Many STEM disciplines are practical and lend themselves to being studied in the field rather than exclusively in the classroom or laboratory. Therefore, enterprise is key. QQI is planning the development of national quality assurance guidelines for work-integrated teaching, learning and assessment to help ensure learners get the most out of this kind of learning. It is noteworthy and fitting that there has been a renaissance of apprenticeship in Ireland in recent years.

I will comment on FET numbers. We classify the FET awards QQI makes using the international standard classification of education, ISCED, fields of education and training system. It is not a straightforward matter to identify whether an award is STEM from the ISCED code, but in the three ISCED fields most likely to involve STEM, the number of QQI major awards has decreased over the past decade and there is a substantial gender imbalance. This is in the context of an overall decrease in awards made in FET.

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

Good afternoon. On behalf of the Higher Education Authority, I am delighted to contribute to this discussion around the future of science, technology, engineering and maths in Irish education.

In Ireland, 30% of students entering higher education for the first time study STEM. This translates to more than 20,000 STEM graduates annually. Over the past five years, certain STEM disciplines have seen larger increases than others. Electricity and energy has seen the largest increase in the number of new entrants, up by 57%. This is followed by architecture and construction, up 55%; mathematics, up 54%; and environmental sciences, as would be expected, up 53%. Nine months after graduation, three in four undergraduate degree STEM graduates are in employment, with 94% of them staying in Ireland for employment. Importantly, 84% consider their qualification necessary for their current position. STEM graduates earn above average salaries nine months after graduation. However, STEM students are less likely to progress from first year to second year than non-STEM students. In the latest year, 11% of STEM students did not progress to second year, compared with 8% of non-STEM students. Males are less likely to progress than females, particularly male STEM students.

The creation of diverse and progressive pathways in the tertiary system is identified as a goal in the statement of strategy of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and advancing this work is critical to ensuring improved progression rates in higher education STEM courses. With the establishment of the national tertiary office in 2022, currently 50% of proposed courses commencing in 2023 are in the STEM discipline area. Promoting female participation, diversity and inclusion in STEM is fundamental to establishing and developing innovative solutions that are representative and fit for all. Overall, 30% of students entering higher education for the first time study STEM but, nonetheless, a large gender gap is evident. While 43% of men study STEM, 19% of women do so, representing a 24-percentage point difference. Through the gender equality enhancement fund in 2022, the HEA awarded more than €246,000 to advance gender equality initiatives. These were awarded across three areas, with one focusing on training programmes specifically addressing gender equality. These efforts include STEM-related initiatives such as the INDICATOR project investigating the gender dimension in computing research across the Irish HEI sector.

The national access plan was published in August 2022. Under its inclusivity goal, the plan contains an objective to consider how to achieve a more diverse student population across all programmes and levels of study. This is relevant for STEM with data in the plan showing that, for example, just 4.9% of new entrants doing mathematics in 2019-20 were from disadvantaged areas, compared with 19.1% from affluent areas. Over the lifetime of the access plan, a range of key performance indicators will be monitored to assess progress, trends and diversity across STEM fields of study.

On research funding, the Irish Research Council, IRC, supports a range of STEM education initiatives. The IRC currently has a total investment of €677,000 in STEM education projects. These supports fall under the Government of Ireland postgraduate scholarship programme, the employment-based postgraduate programme, the COALESCE scheme and the new foundations scheme. The HEA also manages the human capital initiative pillar 3, which consists of projects that aim to develop initiatives in higher education institutions, working with enterprises that are innovative and agile. These projects are five years in duration and, overall, 24 projects have been funded, with ten of these having a heavy focus on the STEM disciplines.

Upskilling and lifelong learning are imperative to ensure that our society is responsive to labour market needs and to any future challenges that may arise. Springboard+ and the human capital initiative pillar 1, managed by the HEA, offer free and heavily subsided courses in areas of high demand in STEM, such as ICT, engineering, green skills, data analytics and construction. These initiatives aim to support the skills of those in employment and to build the supply of skilled graduates to meet the current and future skills needs of the Irish economy.

A number of capital projects are being supported by the HEA capital programmes unit which will have a direct impact on the capacity of higher education institutions to recruit additional STEM students. The higher education strategic infrastructure fund, HESIF, round II initiative announced €100 million in capital funding last week on four projects, of which two will principally support STEM enrolments. The other two also have a small STEM component. Other funds, such as the higher education public private partnership, HEPPP, programme, the higher education strategic infrastructure fund and the infrastructure upgrade and refurbishment fund, could deliver up to 14,000 additional STEM student places, as well as supporting existing STEM student places. The technological sector strategic projects fund is developing a pipeline of projects that could deliver a further 3,000 additional places, as well as supporting existing places, over the next number of years.

I thank members and look forward to their questions and further discussion.

Mr. Paddy Howard

The Department is delighted to be involved in these great deliberations. The Department recognises the importance of STEM to society and the economy, which is reflected across all the main areas of our interest. We have made our written submission and I hope it is of assistance to the committee’s deliberations. I want to take this opportunity to draw out some high-level points from our Department’s perspective.

Clearly, we are conscious of skills as the central lever for a well-functioning society and economy and the continued competitiveness of Ireland on the global stage. Education, skills and continuous learning are the most robust, transformative and lasting means to ensure Ireland’s best asset remains our people. A key priority for the Department is to ensure the skills ecosystem has the agility and flexibility to adapt to changing priorities in the skills and workforce development landscape.

When turning to the specific topic of STEM, we find it important to first place the matter in its context. As is widely acknowledged, society needs investment in a wide array of disciplines and skills. We typically draw attention to the need to highlight the transversal skills needed across all sectors, such as creativity, problem solving and people skills, in responding to things like the challenges and opportunities of digital transformation. Also, whether the topic is education or my own topic of research, it is widely acknowledged that the societal challenges being faced at present require multidisciplinary approaches. That is what forms our approach when we turn to the topic of STEM.

Other colleagues from our agencies have set out the good work being done at the moment in higher and further education. I know the committee has already spoken to Science Foundation Ireland in respect of research and innovation. With that in mind, I might briefly comment on the current position with respect to STEM and higher education. I will illustrate how we conceive of things.

As our colleague from the HEA has set out, I understand enrolments are around 30% for the past few years. However, when we factor in the overall increase in student numbers in that time, we find that the number of students enrolled in STEM has increased by about 14%. Through targeted upskilling and reskilling initiatives such as Springboard+, we have seen the mainstream supply of graduates supplemented. It provides free and subsidised upskilling and retraining in areas of need. The human capital initiative, which, again, colleagues have already mentioned, also forms a strategic response to the changing workplace, has a strong STEM element and is funded through the national training fund.

We are aware that just because a learner is not enrolled in a STEM course does not mean they cannot be exposed to new technologies or scientific ways of thinking.

Also, STEM students benefit from looking outside their fields of study to learn new thinking. We believe that everyone should have the opportunity to continue lifelong learning, focusing that digital transversal skill, as we would see it, which is required in various ways through all stages of life and in all career paths.

On the issue of digital skills, dimension 3 of the national digital strategy sets out the importance of focusing our skills policy on getting digital skills at every level, including high-level digital skills, digital skills for the labour market and digital skills for society. This focus is vital in order for us to be an international leader in the digital economy. To that end, the Department has underpinned the national digital strategy by setting two overall targets. The first of these is to increase the number of learners who graduate with higher level digital skills to more than 12,400 graduates, apprentices and trainees. The second target is to increase the share of adults in Ireland with at least basic digital skills to 80%. As members can see in our written submission, achievement of these goals has been largely completed and the country continues to show significant progress in meeting the remaining elements.

We have also set out the actions and progress being made in respect of equality in our written submission and I know that other colleagues have elaborated on that. Questions of equality and access are very much on our minds in all that we do.

The Department will be developing a new science advisory structure. While located in our Department, this structure will offer a service to Government. In particular, it will work to improve delivery of cross-sectoral science advice which has the potential to illuminate pressing societal problems.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na hoifigigh as teacht os comhair an choiste. It has been a really interesting reading the opening statements before the meeting and then hearing them now. It is clear that a significant amount of work is being done involving some very exciting things.

The Deputy has about ten minutes.

I have ten minutes so I do not have much time to ask questions. I might start with Mr. Brownlee. I hate to start on a negative but it is a question I need to ask and then I will continue with all the other things. I ask about the waiting times for the block-release training. I am new to the position of Sinn Féin spokesperson on further and higher education, but this is something that has already been raised with me. I was contacted by one first-year apprentice who has now been waiting for 70 weeks. I tabled a parliamentary question that went straight back to the person in question, which is fair enough because of GDPR and all that kind of thing. That person will now not be taken on until September, which basically means waiting 21 months. We need people to go into apprenticeships, people who have an interest in this and all that kind of thing. It is incredibly frustrating for the person in question and very demoralising. The person's life is on hold as a result. I ask Mr. Brownlee to outline how that particular issue might be rectified. That was just something that was raised with me. I want to go into other matters.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

I freely admit that is our biggest challenge and the number one priority for us. The waiting list problem essentially occurred because we had to close the training centres for nine of the first 15 months of the pandemic. That led to a significant build-up of people waiting to do their after-job apprenticeship training. At one stage we had 12,000 on the waiting list. Now, by investing in more workshops, recruiting more instructors and working with SIPTU and other unions to get most of our training centres to move to a three-intake model - three intakes of apprentices during the year rather than two - we have got that figure down to about 7,000 but there is still a good bit to go and that has resulted in the circumstances the Deputy set out.

There is a plan in place. We increased capacity from 4,000 phase 2 places to 5,600 last year. We are hoping to take that to 8,000 this year. We are having difficulty recruiting instructors because the construction industry job market is so vibrant. We are opening new workshops. We have set up electrical hubs in three specific areas to focus just on the electrical backlog. We are also working with the union because that three-intake model was done on the basis of goodwill when we were in an emergency Covid situation. We are effectively going to work harder and deliver three intakes a year to help reduce these backlogs and help our apprentices who are the most important people in all this. We need to maintain that three-intake model. Discussions are ongoing with the unions to try to ensure that continues.

This person knows of other people who have gone through the system quicker.

Why is that? Should it not be based on the length of time somebody is waiting? This person could be waiting 21 months for something that should have taken seven months.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

That should not happen. If there is evidence it has happened, we would like to see it.

I will follow up directly

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

There is a national list and we are very clear that no one jumps the queue on it. Having said that, there are different apprenticeships and there is a longer waiting list for electrical than for carpentry and joinery, for example. That might explain the difference. However, people jumping the queue to access their training faster should not happen.

On the back of this, I may submit parliamentary questions seeking the waiting times in different areas. I appreciate the response. We have people with their lives on hold. We need to think about how we can stop people from emigrating. We very clearly need people who can do construction at this time.

It is quite exciting that the opening statement refers to emerging areas such as cybersecurity. It also mentioned looking into the future world of work and green skills. I was in Scotland last week with another committee looking at the potential of renewable energy. I am not going to claim I am an expert by any means but it was interesting. One place we visited had a control centre for renewable energy and offshore wind. The manager spoke of how they were looking at building an apprenticeship model for that kind of work. Is that being considered here?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

Yes, there is already a wind turbine engineering apprenticeship which is co-ordinated by Kerry ETB. It is a really exciting development. There is a plan to develop two centres of specialisation in offshore energy, one on the west side of the country around Kerry and one in Wicklow in the east. There is already one there and one operational so it is an area of real potential. The infrastructure is not as good as it is in Scotland but there is an investment fund to deal with that. We need the talent to service that infrastructure.

That is very interesting and exciting. In some ways, we are preparing a workforce when we do not even know what we need because things are changing so rapidly.

We had two apprentices before the committee last week to give their perspectives. One issue that really stood out was that they did not feel they were steered in that direction. One of the witnesses mentioned the transition year, TY, offerings. Having done TY, I think it could be a good way of developing that idea of steering students in the right direction. Has Mr. Brownlee seen any outcomes from engaging on the TY offering?

Mention was also made of having school-focused offerings for nursing. How exactly would that work? My mother is German and my cousin there is a nurse. In Germany, nurses do not go to university. They have an apprenticeship-based model. Is the idea for Ireland based on that?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

Yes, partly. We have been working very closely with the NCCA on this. We have used the further education and training modules in specialist areas like mechanics, welding, aviation, electrical, plumbing and green skills to develop an offering that could be given to transition year students. Most of our ETBs are now working with their local schools to deliver those as part of transition year. That is the easy part of it because schools are interested in filling up transition year with highly relevant practical experience, such as work placements. There are no real barriers to doing so. The real nut to crack relates to the Deputy's point about the German model which is the model in Scotland also. In this model students can do credited modules as part of senior cycle, so they could do something like engineering, nursing or electrical.

What would that mean for them after the leaving certificate?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

It means it would count towards the leaving certificate and they would get credits. If they were to go on to further education and training or an apprenticeship or higher education, they would already have accredited modules in the bag. It could potentially lead to advanced entry arrangements.

That is how it works in Scotland. One has FET colleges offering modules which are usually done on a day-release or morning-release model. Secondary school students will go to the college for a morning, do their module in one of the technical subjects and get credited for it, and it will count to their overall award when they leave school. That will then get them better and easier access into higher education, further education, or apprenticeships after that. Sometimes, they may even receive credits which will allow them to perhaps skip modules as part of that also.

I find that very interesting. I have only one minute left so I can only ask one more question. It is in respect of QQI, mathematics and people who have the opportunity to gain the mathematical foundations required for STEM programmes so that they do not have to go back to secondary school. I am interested in the size of the take-up, which has been relatively low, as Dr. Cullen has mentioned. I live in a Gaeltacht constituency and many people have to return there to study Irish. This is something that has been raised with me in respect of the maths aspect. People feel it has not been very well publicised. There was a period of time - it may well have changed at this point - where this was facilitated through Trinity College Dublin. One would go to the website where it would continue to bring one around in circles. How is the promotion of this subject going and how does QQI feel that it could promote maths in a greater way to increase the uptake?

Dr. Peter Cullen

The key thing with that qualification is that it is recognised by the universities as equivalent to the leaving certificate for entry into programmes like engineering. There is then the convincing of students that it is worth spending and investing time doing 30 credit modules, where the norm in an FET programme is 15 credits. I am not entirely sure what the solution is when it comes to improving the take-up of maths for STEM. We have had it on the books since 2014 and the numbers are very much not increasing in the way that one would expect them to.

Does Dr. Cullen believe that people are aware of it?

Dr. Peter Cullen

I am not sure what the reasons are, to be frank. Before coming here today, I had a chat with somebody from one of the ETBs. I suspect from our conversation that it is a combination of things. We need to look at promotion, which is one of these factors. We also need to look at recognition and ask if this qualification is getting due recognition in the higher education institutions.

The issue of bonus points was also raised with me. People will get bonus points if they do well in higher maths in the leaving certificate but they do not get such points for this. There are a few different things that we need to look at to try to take advantage of the opportunity this provides.

I thank Dr. Cullen and the Chair as I know my time is up.

I call Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan.

I thank the Chair. I welcome everybody here this afternoon. I have a couple of questions for Mr. Brownlee but I believe I should start with somebody else to give them the opportunity to come in first. I might return to Mr. Brownlee at the end of my contribution.

Dr. Patterson commented that we have to be responsive to labour market needs. The blunt question is whether we have we been so responsive. I will cushion the question a little bit for Dr. Patterson by asking what kind of area we are excelling in. What area can we do better in with respect to responding to market needs?

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

It is not always completely obvious within the higher education sector, where a great deal of work is done with employers to ensure the right skills, modules and types of courses are being provided. That goes on regularly. Mainstream undergraduate degree courses are changing constantly. One always has employers on the accreditation boards, and so on. That goes on but in recent times, the Human Capital Initiative is investing over €200 million in 24 projects.

The main aim of those projects is to work directly with enterprise to ensure that what is being developed within the higher education sector is relevant to the needs of employers. There are various projects that work with employers in different ways. Some of them work with employers to develop courses in which students use virtual or augmented reality to situate themselves within a company and use equipment through virtual reality that they will use when they go out into the workplace. Some of the employers are designing the courses. Some employers, particularly small and medium-sized enterprises, go into higher education institutions and work with students to solve problems.

The idea is that as things emerge and change, and things are changing very quickly, we will be able to respond because we are having those conversations with enterprise. That is working really well, particularly in these projects, the subjects of which range from cyber skills to climate to centres for climate action. We have developed a number of the offshore energy courses that are being offered this year under pillar 1 of the human capital initiative. That is in direct response to a request from enterprise to have people in those particular areas. I do not know whether I could pick out any one area in which we are excelling. We are keeping up to date and we are agile and responsive across all our discipline areas.

Dr. Cullen said earlier that there is something of a renaissance going on with regard to apprenticeships, which I acknowledge. Dr. Patterson gave us figures showing the increased number of students and courses offered, which is impressive and encouraging. I might be nit-picking here but she said the number of people dropping out increased from 8% to 11%. Is that a natural fall-off that is to be expected in most courses or is the rate higher in STEM subjects?

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

We have noticed that for males in STEM-related courses, the dropout rate is higher than for females and higher compared with any other discipline area. A lot of that is directly related to maths attainment. It is also linked in some ways to socioeconomic background, but even when we factor in socioeconomic background, it always comes down to maths.

That is interesting.

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

There is also something about how courses are advertised and the need to improve career guidance. A lot of boys think courses like computer games development look great but they do not realise the maths content is very high and quite difficult.

Of the 11% of students who drop out, do they typically stay within STEM or take a totally new course of action? Is there any research or data on that?

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

We do not have any data on that. I do not know what the answer is but I predict that they probably move out of STEM.

My next question is for Mr. Brownlee. We spoke about cybersecurity at a previous meeting, which is something in which I am interested. I have spoken to a few people in higher education who say they would like to see more course offerings in this area in different parts of the country. Does Mr. Brownlee have any idea how many courses there currently are in place dealing with cyber safety and cybersecurity nationwide, and the number of students engaged in them?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

There are 8,000 learners each year in further education and training doing ICT. I would need to find out the cybersecurity-specific numbers. There is a level 6 apprenticeship in cybersecurity and I understand there is also a higher education apprenticeship being developed. If it is okay with the Deputy, I will hand over to Dr. Trant, who might talk about the apprenticeship developments in this area.

Dr. Mary-Liz Trant

As Mr. Brownlee mentioned, there is a level 6 cybersecurity apprenticeship programme, which has been up and running for approximately three years. There are more than 100 people going through that programme at the moment. Last year, a level 8 cybersecurity practitioner award was developed and rolled out, with the University of Limerick as a lead, in direct response to the HSE crisis. Both industry and public service bodies have realised they need to find a way to upskill in this area, including by training people in career as well as by bringing people into the industry for the first time.

The number on that programme, which started last year, is fewer than ten because it was year one and began with a pilot. However, that number is going to increase. Those two programmes have access and progression routes worked out between them. Somebody who completes a level 6 apprenticeship and who then works in the industry for a couple of years can then go on and complete the level 8 qualification. It is a joined-up offering. It is interesting that we expected more take-up of the level 8 programme than we have seen. I believe it will grow. Combined with what is on offer as regards full-time academic further and higher education, I hope it will make a good contribution.

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

On what is being seen in cybersecurity, there is a human capital initiative, HCI, project with regard to cyber skills running out of Munster Technological University, MTU. This is developing a number of short microcredentials and shorter lifelong learning courses. There is greater uptake from people who have already left school. There are certainly more women upskilling in ICT than there are women taking ICT courses at undergraduate level. There are a lot of lifelong learning and upskilling courses available throughout further and higher education. There is good uptake of such courses. There are 200 to 300 people coming out of those courses every year so it is significant. The cyber skills project has a mobile unit that goes out to companies and teaches people. That has been in high demand.

Is that accredited?

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

It is, yes. They are all accredited.

I might finish up with Mr. Brownlee. Going back to the waiting lists, I understand the Covid stuff but when does SOLAS anticipate that it will catch up with that 7,000? I believe the figure has gone from 12,000 to 7,000. When will SOLAS catch up?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

If we can deliver on the plans for this year, which is dependent on getting instructors in, tuning that three-intake model and the electrical hubs opening as planned, we hope that, by the end of the year, nobody will be waiting more than six months to access training. That is the plan at the moment. There are a few interdependencies involved but, as I have said, it is our number one priority. We need to address it.

Mr. Brownlee mentioned that there was insufficient exposure. I believe he was making reference to women in particular.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

Yes. The Deputy has probably heard this from people who have spoken to the committee. It is particularly the case in single-sex schools that do not have the teaching expertise to deliver some of the vocational and technical options.

In my second level school we offered tasters to everybody in first year up until Christmas so that they would have some experience of most subjects. Is Mr. Brownlee advocating more of that kind of approach?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

Yes, I would advocate a more diverse approach using the expertise of further and higher education. If that expertise is not in the schools, further and higher education providers should be allowed to come in and help deliver such programmes and show people the pathways that are available.

I think that is me done. I may come back in after the Chair if I have anything else to say.

I have a small number of questions for Mr. Howard. On the importance of joined-up thinking, witnesses from the Department of Education were here earlier on. I am not sure if Mr. Howard heard their contribution but we spoke about that importance. From the point of view of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, because it is definitely more important for that Department's thinking to be joined up with other Departments and private industry, how can we improve in that regard?

Mr. Paddy Howard

First of all, I will acknowledge that it is a shared concern. We obviously want to have that outreach too. With regard to my own area, whose focus is on research on innovation, we have set up structures so that oversight of that policy directly involves other Departments, stakeholders and agencies that have an interest in it. We have a dialogue with our colleagues in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to keep that linkage going. As our colleagues from the Department of Education mentioned, in looking at its STEM policy, it has commenced engagement with us. We obviously partner in that area. Consultation and openness to views are very much part of our Department's approach.

I wish to ask Mr. Brownlee a question, following up on one from Deputy O’Sullivan on the issue of cybersecurity. As he knows, this will be a huge space going into the future. Is there a scarcity of the number of first year cybersecurity places? I ask about the competition for it.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

I do not believe so - not for the apprenticeship and not for the further education course. I do not think so. In higher education courses, it is a question of stimulating a demand and interest. As Dr. Patterson said, there is a key opportunity to upskill the existing workforce in cyber knowledge and cyber skills as well. There is no capacity issue; it is about demand.

It will be a very important area. As a former Minister for Defence, I know the shortage of skilled personnel in the area of cybersecurity is huge.

Dr. Vivienne Patterson

Upskilling is key. If you have somebody with a base in ICT, upskilling them in specific areas of cybersecurity gives you somebody more quickly than starting from scratch from a degree. All elements of all computer science courses within higher education and further education institutions would have cybersecurity built into them. It is not necessarily always a stand-alone course. The lifelong learning element is important.

I have a question for Dr. Cullen on the QQI side of it and the number of courses, modules and everything like that being run at the moment. Where does QQI fit into that as an organisation?

Dr. Peter Cullen

In relation to cybersecurity or-----

In the broad range.

Dr. Peter Cullen

As an awarding body for further education and training, QQI determines standards for qualifications. It is quite influential in shaping the FET offering. In higher education, it is a completely different picture. By and large, institutions themselves determine what they are going to do and QQI is not involved in the detail of that at all. In further education, we published, I think in 2020, a Green Paper on the future of the qualification system looking at, among other things, where the FET sector is going in terms of how qualifications are governed. Among the different questions that we posed is whether the current approach is a bit over-centralised and whether a more distributed approach is required. That is where we are at the moment. We are thinking about where to go next in terms of a strategy for the FET qualification system. Does that-----

Absolutely. Dr. Trant has been before the committee on a number of occasions. Apprenticeships are important and we can never promote them enough. We have visited a number of the new technological universities over the past 12 to 18 months. In our recent visit to Waterford to South East Technological University, SETU, on Friday, we learned they are doing fantastic work with apprenticeships, promoting them, educating students and everything like that. I know I have asked this question before. As we go along, how do we continue or even do more to promote apprenticeships? The Minister, Deputy Harris, and his Department are doing a huge amount of work. I refer to the fourth year in secondary schools – the transition year. There is a review going on the moment to do a more streamlined approach in transition year. It would be a formula across all second-level schools. How can we fit into that? How can the National Apprenticeship Office as an organisation do it and how can we help it do it?

Dr. Mary-Liz Trant

The Cathaoirleach is absolutely right. It is hugely important. There is much work still to be done at second level.

I would say there is a much work to be done at primary as well, and even earlier.

Could Dr. Trant flesh that out even more? We can never start talking about STEM and apprenticeships too early but there are people who have different opinions. Witnesses have appeared before the committee in recent weeks saying there is enough going on in young people’s heads in primary school without troubling them more.

Dr. Mary-Liz Trant

It is about exposing all our young people throughout the education system to what is out there and the opportunities. There are ways of doing it. For example, we have been running a competition at second level on apprenticeships and green skills. It builds awareness of how completing an apprenticeship and getting a job contributes to the awareness of green skills and to how companies develop green skills awareness. That competition has worked successfully at second level with schools, youth reach centres and early school-leaving centres. Students have loved it because it is an opportunity for them to work individually or together, explore the range of apprenticeship options available and express their commitment to green skills and climate action. The take-up has been really good. That model fits in well to transition year but other years have done it as well. It would fit into the primary curriculum for teachers working with classes on making sure there is awareness of all that knowledge. It can be built into geography and into the various civil and social areas of work that are now in the curriculum. It is not about adding on something new but integrating that exploration, a bit of fun and knowledge into what is already going on. We have examples of what is working and they can be built and developed. The challenge is how we all join up.

I was in Sligo for the national conference of guidance counsellors last month and got a great response. Sometimes the feedback we hear is it is really hard to get the message through to guidance counsellors about apprenticeships, for example. The feedback we got in Sligo was there is a huge appetite for it, wanting to know what is going on and to share the information with students. There is a body of work for us to do on the Department side and the agency side working together to figure out how to integrate awareness and knowledge. Adding further education and apprenticeships to the CAO platform last year was a huge step forward in terms of putting out all the information. We have more to do on that and on innovative ways of doing it. It is not about piling on more, but finding creative ways of building it into the experience and into what primary and secondary level students are learning in school.

I asked a question when I was in Waterford last week and found the reply interesting. We were in the motor mechanics section of the apprenticeships and it was all diesel engines. I asked where were the new electric cars we are all talking about. This probably comes in for QQI and warrants an arranged debate. They found it difficult because each maker does not want to let the others know how it is getting on. Nissan does not want to let BMW know, BMW does not want to let Mercedes know and so on. This will be a huge challenge because the Government has a commitment for a certain number of electric cars by 2030 but I am not aware of any apprenticeship specifically on electric car mechanics. The witnesses might be able to correct me on this but I believe any training done is done internally in the makers’ garages, be it Peugeot, BMW, Toyota, Audi or whatever. Has that been raised with the witnesses? Is it an issue? Where are the witnesses on it? I am interested to hear.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

We continually look at and update the curriculum so they should have access to training around electric vehicles if the co-ordinating provider is on the ball.

We are looking at putting in place what we are calling an e-mobility specialist skills centre. At the moment we are focused on what the next generation of mechanic needs to have. That covers everything from electric vehicles to electric scooters. We are working on all the types of vehicles to get around.

Will that be in one specific college?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

Everyone throughout the country will need training. That will need to be rolled out at national level. However the idea is to start to develop the specialist capability in a national centre.

Will that be linked to one of the technological universities? Will it be run through an apprenticeship scheme?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

We only have responsibility for the Education and Training Boards, ETBs. We are effectively supporting ETBs to develop this but, yes, of course they should work with the local technological universities.

Dr. Mary-Liz Trant

From travelling around the country I know what is happening. There is a motor mechanic apprenticeship. The beauty of apprenticeships is that there is a combination of work-based and off-the-job learning in either an ETB or a TU. Learning outcomes are broad. Companies say that they need their apprentices to know about electric vehicles. This is actually happening. I have seen a number of the training workshops in ETBs and in the TUs where they got an electric vehicle and worked on it. That is happening. As Mr. Brownlee said, it is about keeping the curriculum up to date. I mentioned in my statement that all the latest technologies are coming through in the workplace and what happens when that feeds into education and training. It is a good example of where there is a push and the learning is already happening. It is being recognised and accommodated in the apprenticeship programme for sure. That will only grow as we go.

Does any other member wish to add anything? Some members had other commitments today and therefore not many were here. We had a number of apologies. I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee today. I thank them for their contributions. They were actually our last witnesses on this module of STEM. It has been very interesting over the past number of weeks. We appreciate all of the witnesses who have appeared. The Department of Education has said that when watching in, it learned from the witnesses, from the different contributions, ideas and challenges and the area of linking together, the interconnection of all the Departments as well as private industry. That is so important. It has also been extremely beneficial to the committee and to the members. It will feed into the report which will be published in the next month or two.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.33 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 9 May 2023.
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