Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 21 Jun 2023

Key Issues in Higher and Further Education: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

We will now continue with a discussion on the following key issues in the higher and further education sector: the key recommendations in the future of higher education report; UCD Student Union's report on student accommodation; improved public transport to enable students to commute from their home counties to college; the need for additional courses in veterinary surgery and other professions with graduate shortages; academic employment precarity; the national review of State supports for PhD researchers; the student contribution fee for 2023-24; the plans for the National Training Fund, NTF; and EuroSkills 2023.

I will invite the Minister, Deputy Harris, to make an opening statement of five minutes. This will be followed by questions from members. Each member will have a slot of approximately six minutes, given our time constraints, in which to ask questions of the Minister and receive responses. As the Minister is probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on its website following the meeting.

I again remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity inside or outside of the Houses in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

The Minister has five minutes to make his opening statement.

Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Deputy Simon Harris)

Unless the committee wishes it to be otherwise, I am going to be very brief because it has my opening statement and I would rather get into the back-and-forth exchange on the issues. Today, we published details of the expression of interest process in respect of the Higher Education Authority, HEA. This was a major body of work and everyone has worked so hard on getting us to this point. I thank the HEA. We are trying to move beyond the annual conversation concerning the scramble for additional college places in order to have a more strategic look at where we could get to in terms of the capacity of higher education in key areas, especially those relating to public services. We have started with health, in respect of medicine, nursing, dentistry and pharmacy, and with veterinary medicine.

I am pleased that we have seen the system respond, and respond well, with more than 11 institutions now generating interesting projects in this context. Ultimately, this endeavour could create around 5,000 additional enrolments. I refer as well to the opportunity to create new veterinary schools in the regions. The idea that the only veterinary school, which is a very good one and of which we are very proud, is in south County Dublin probably jars with many people in rural and regional Ireland, to be quite frank. We have an excellent school in University College Dublin, UCD, but real challenges are being faced by rural and regional Ireland and we must explore how we can examine this aspect as well. We have many young people going abroad to study veterinary medicine annually. At least a couple of hundred students are heading abroad, mainly to the eastern parts of the European Union. The EU plays an important part concerning our infrastructure, but at the same time we want to be able to provide capacity here. We need to do more in this context, so I am pleased to publish what I think is an exciting plan to expand medicine, dentistry, nursing, pharmacy and veterinary medicine.

We now intend to undertake a similar process regarding therapies, especially those for children with disabilities. The focus will be on speech and language therapy, occupational therapy and other key areas in this regard. Hopefully, we can kick this process off in early September. I look forward to working on this with the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O'Gorman, and the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. Basically, we are trying to break the cycle of having annual conversations about what we can do in this regard and turn the conversation instead into one more concerned with exploring where we can get to. I am looking forward to this. The funding of these endeavours will become a part of the conversation around the Estimates and the national development plan.

As I told Deputy Mairéad Farrell, I will be announcing tomorrow how we will move forward on the construction of student accommodation for our technological universities sector. With the exception of the Waterford campus in Deputy Ó Cathasaigh's constituency, no technological university has ever built one student bed. We must move beyond this situation and exciting plans are already coming forward in this regard. Many of the technological universities need capacity and assistance to allow them to come up with these plans. We have allocated €1 million to bring in external assistance to help them to get plans ready so we can start having conversations about moving these plans forward next year too. I am also looking forward to this endeavour.

Turning to pathways to learning, as the committee will know I want to provide opportunities for people to gain entry to college outside the Central Application Office, CAO, system and outside the points race. We have already launched several programmes where students will start their degrees in further education institutions and then complete them at a university. We will be opening these programmes for applications in the coming weeks as well.

Moving onto a national review of State supports for PhD researchers, I brought this to the Cabinet yesterday. It will be published early next week. It is the first report of several, because this review has gone into quite a lot of detail as the reviewers have delved into their work. The first report will focus on financial support issues, particularly stipends, facing non-EEA students in Ireland and career pathways. I look forward to discussing this review with the committee, especially in the context of our Impact 2030 research and innovation strategy.

Much of the discussion we had in the Dáil last night focused on the cost of education and how we can support students and their families. I confirm that I will be bringing a cost of education paper to the Government over the summer. This will show the options concerning what we could do in the budget. We have been doing this for tax and social welfare spending for several years. I am eager that we will also do this in respect of examining how we could help students and their families with the cost of education and what the options are in this regard. We can then have an honest and informed debate as well. I know this committee is considering the proposed research and innovation Bill 2023. I thank the members for the work they have done on this. I believe the pre-legislative scrutiny report on this Bill is due to be published shortly and I am looking forward to seeing the outcome of this process.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Mairéad Farrell.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Go raibh maith agat. I am aware I have six minutes so I will go as fast as possible. I wish to start by touching on the housing aspect. The report undertaken by UCD was a good one. It highlighted the impact of this issue. We previously discussed student digs and potential regulation in this regard.

There is also a potential impact on people coming in to provide the digs. I had a good conversation with someone from the students' union in Galway yesterday about the impact of digs. She told me people are sometimes getting kicked out in the middle of the night. Those are horror stories. People obviously have nowhere else to go because of the housing crisis, so there is that concern. The USI has called for regulation. I am concerned about young people being in those kinds of precarious situations. I understand where the Minister is coming from on this but when the cost-benefit analysis is being weighed up, is it not important to have regulations? I believe it is, because what are young people who do not have family in the area or anybody they can rely on supposed to do in situations like getting kicked out in the middle of the night?

The second aspect with respect to housing is third-level institutions that have shovel-ready projects. Does the Minister know how many there are, in bed capacity terms? Perhaps he could provide us with a breakdown by third-level institution afterwards. What are the main barriers for institutions that have shovel-ready projects they have not proceeded with?

Deputy Simon Harris

I thank the Deputy. Her points on digs are fair and measured. It genuinely is a matter of balancing the imperative to maximise the accommodation available to students with ensuring students are safe and treated with respect and dignity. Renting a room is working for thousands of students every year. I hear that from students but I also know purely from the numbers that go through the system with Revenue and the like. I am still concerned that if we got into formal regulation, the downside would be people saying they will not bother renting out the spare room. That is the balance. However, that is not a reason to say we should not be doing everything we can to support and help students. One of the things we are looking at this year is trying to ensure there is a less rushed approach. Between Covid, delayed leaving certificate results and the college year moving, many students find out where they are going at the last minute and there is then a huge scramble to try to find accommodation. That there will be earlier leaving certificate results this year helps. We are going to have a co-ordinated campaign this year around digs. It will be a public awareness campaign on what they are and how they work. We are also going to try to work much more closely with the universities to compile offers in order that people know where to go to find more reputable information. I would like to get to a point where we have national guidelines on digs, so people know what they are signing up to, what is expected of a person renting out a room and what a person renting a room should expect. I will reflect on what the Deputy has said and see how quickly we can get to the point of some form of national guidelines.

On the shovel-ready projects, I will send the committee a note so as to give accurate figures. As the Deputy will know, we have already approved Maynooth, the University of Limerick, UL, Galway and Dublin City University, DCU, to proceed with accommodation. These are projects that were shovel-ready and were stalled as they were viewed as unviable. There are 1,100 units in those four projects. There are about another thousand units that have planning permission between UCD, Trinity and UCC. I am expecting to make progress on the next tranche shortly and will keep members updated on that. I expect to return to Cabinet before the summer recess on what more can be done on that. Information available to us is we have about 2,000 student accommodation rooms under construction in the private sector. We expect that approximately 1,800 additional student accommodation beds have been delivered since the last academic year. That is a high-level view but I am happy to provide a more detailed note to the committee. I want to be in a position where every project that has planning permission is moving and it is realistic to be in that position quite shortly. We are intensifying our discussions - people are engaging in good faith - with UCD, Trinity and UCC and we met the Irish Universities Association on this yesterday.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I thank the Minister for that. It will be good to get those figures and look at them. On accommodation, there is the matter of providing for the accommodation to be in place and then there is the issue of affordability. Just yesterday, the figures came out for how much it is going to cost students to live in the new Dunlin Village accommodation in Galway. For a standard single, it is €815 per month. That is not realistic for anybody. When I was in college, people were paying €80 a week, so that is crazy stuff. How can we tackle that? It is a situation whereby people are going to locked out of third-level education unless they live beside a college.

Deputy Simon Harris

Every euro we put into student accommodation we expect to be returned in the form of below-market rents. Let us say we are funding 30% of a college's development. We then expect at least 30% of the beds to be provided and ring-fenced below market rent. We see in the data every year that student accommodation is oversubscribed, even with current market rates. I think Maynooth University has six applications for every single student bed on campus. As there are students who cannot afford these, I want to ensure that any investment made by the State is returned in full with below-market rents for these units. That is the approach we are taking. I am trying to be balanced on this because I am trying to face two different challenges here and both are equally important. One is availability and the other is affordability. I want to see as much student accommodation built as possible.

We can come at addressing affordability from a number of angles. There is the one I have just suggested, where whatever we put in we get the same amount back as a percent below market rent. There are obviously also things like student grants or other ways we can help people. We will probably agree on this next point. I am conscious about ten or 11 years ago when the SUSI grant was introduced, largely speaking people felt it met the cost of going to college and was much closer. I accept that it does not now for many students, especially those who must live outside home. Both availability and affordability of accommodation are important conversations and I need to ensure we do both. May absolute priority is getting supply up and then looking at how we can reduce the cost to the student, through the clawback with the below-market rent units or the student grant or reduction in fees.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I will finish on this. It is more a statement than a question. I am aware the accommodation is oversubscribed. There must be people taking on huge debt to put their child through college. It must be the case because who can afford €815 per month on top of everything else? On the below-market rents, how much of a percentage is that and is it based on how much this is or is it an average for that area?

Deputy Simon Harris

We are finalising those arrangements at the moment. I can give the Deputy the information as soon as we have it. We know definitively that from the proportion we fund, we will get at least that proportion of beds back below market rent. We need to work out the actual level of the rent with the institutions and I will keep the Deputy informed on that.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the Minister and his officials for coming before the committee. I will start with the accommodation issue Deputy Farrell was just dealing with. I also met the president of the UCD students' union, who came in. I also had the pleasure of going up to Grangegorman with the Chairman a number of months ago. It is a fantastic facility and campus. Is it the intention of the Department to try to ensure each technological university will have some accommodation on line and does the Minister have any specifics on Grangegorman?

Deputy Simon Harris

The answer is "Yes". Every university in Ireland needs to see the provision of student accommodation as a core part of its work. I can say that because it is not the State just saying it, as we are willing to get involved in part-funding it. In fairness to the technological universities, this is a new space for them. Institutes of technology, which the TUs were before, never built student accommodation, with the exception of Waterford Institute of Technology. Consequently, they do not necessarily have the in-house capacity. Tomorrow we will announce the details of the appointment of experts to help them come up with their plans. I hope TU Dublin can be a part of that and expect it can. On UCD, I expect to have good news in the next month to try to move forward that student accommodation with Government assistance.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

One of the issues raised with me by the students' union president was the cost of the accommodation in UCD is considerably higher than in other third-level institutions. Her concern was the accommodation had been designed to an especially high specification and was going to be more expensive as a consequence. The reason for that was the third-level institution perhaps wanted to be able to rent out the accommodation during the summer months and the higher the spec, the more likely it was that the university would be able to rent it out at a better cost. Is there any substance to that? Is there a contradictory message coming from the third level institutions? If they are upping the spec it may benefit them by getting conferences in but it can damage the ability of students to rent.

Deputy Simon Harris

I acknowledge the new president of UCD has been really proactive in this space and I thank her for that. We need to get to common design around student accommodation.

I have spoken to students and student unions about this. They often tell me they are being asked to pay for facilities that have things in them they did not ask for. We are trying to get to a point of common design and are working closely with the Minister for housing on that. We should be in a position to say what student accommodation the State funds or part funds looks like. I think we can get there quite quickly.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Okay. The committee discussed the research and innovation Bill. We finished our scrutiny of it but have yet to report. It will come back to the Minister and he will introduce it to the Oireachtas. A concern raised by witnesses before the committee was the arts and humanities may be downgraded on the basis of the proposed merger between Science Foundation Ireland and the Irish Research Council. Does the Minister have concerns about that? Can anything be done legislatively to ensure the arts and humanities are not completely overwhelmed by science research?

Deputy Simon Harris

I have heard that concern and met some of those researchers. I hope through the conversations we have had and will have as we scrutinise the Bill and go through Committee Stage we can address that. I see it as the opposite to that for this reason. The Irish Research Council, which does incredible work, does not exist in statute. It was established by a letter from a Minister. It could be unestablished in the same manner. This is a chance for the first time to put arts and humanities on a statutory footing and to set up the research agency, which is not a merger but a new agency that has parity between different disciplines. There are many ways to do that, such as a council structure or federated structure. I will be happy to engage with the Deputy as we go through that.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Hugely crucial to the success of research and innovation Ireland will be the selection of the board. Professor Nolan has been selected and is a very commendable choice. How will the selection of others on the board be approached? Will it be designated to the Public Appointments Service or will the Minister have a direct hand in it?

Deputy Simon Harris

It is my intention that anybody appointed to the board will come through a process. I am a big believer in that. Probably the Public Appointments Service is my thinking at the moment. I am happy to think further if there are informed views on how best to do that. I have an open mind on that one.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I welcome the fact we will have more university spaces for medicine students. That is a requirement for our society as our population grows and demands for medicine increase. We are seeing a phenomenon whereby many students who qualify as doctors leave the country quite quickly afterwards, many for a short period but some permanently. Can anything be done by the State to make it more attractive for medicine graduates to remain here, rather than taking the draconian step of imposing specific legal requirements on them to stay?

Deputy Simon Harris

I had the honour of being Minister for Health for four and a half years so will resist straying into the current Minister for Health’s space today, other than to say I know from conversations with him he is very much aware of the issue. As we significantly increase medicine places, that is one part of it; retaining the talent is another. I hear about positive experience in hospital training being an important part and we are working on that. I will give one example. The University of Galway submitted an interesting project today on rural and remote medicine. Senator Dolan will know of this as it is in her area. They will ensure the placements are in rural GP practices. It is an innovative way of exposing students to rural medicine at an early stage. That innovative stuff could help from our side too.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I welcome the Minister and his Department officials. It is exciting to see the HEA expression of interest. It is nearly 1,400 places on courses, if I have counted correctly. The Minister said it involves 11 institutions across medicine, nursing, pharmacy, dentistry and veterinary.

My interest is in the focus on balanced regional development. How do we ensure students are based in locations across the country? That means, hopefully, they will continue to work in such locations. The report will look at 200 doctors, 700 nurses, the guts of 200 pharmacists, over 60 dentists and 230 vets annually. That is phenomenal. The course the Minister mentioned in terms of the medical graduate entry in University of Galway is innovative. I pay tribute to the college of medicine there. They are looking to address the incredible shortages in rural areas, particularly around recruiting GPs. I have already fought on this. We fought to get Westdoc support, to provide night-time support to GPs trying to deal with spread-out rural communities and travelling at night-time to do house calls. It is a wonderful role to be based in a community but if we do not support them through technology and by bringing in people who want to work in these regions, it will be difficult.

What I really like about this model is rural remote delivery of healthcare. They based this on a successful model in northern Ontario. They are looking at what works well in the likes of Canada. They have shown that graduates from these courses are 20 to 30 times more likely to locate in the areas where they worked. The amazing thing about this course is the person does the first two years in university. They are coming in as graduates so are older, potentially. They are based in primary care networks in towns, potentially in the west. They will be working in a hospital environment for a part of that. In Saolta, for example, there are seven hospitals, including Portiuncula in my home town of Ballinasloe, Roscommon University Hospital, Castlebar, University Hospital Galway and Letterkenny. Those graduates and recruits will have incredible experience of working in these environments. It is an evidence-based model that has been proven to work. That is important.

On pharmacy, it is wonderful to see this is one of the courses shortlisted. I understand it is going for the next stage of review. It would be the first time in the west a university would deliver pharmacy courses. In pharmacies and prescribing pharmacists, there are shortages in regional areas and hospitals, but also in companies. Multinationals based in Galway like Medtronic want to recruit people. If we have a course delivering the likes of pharmacists annually in the west it will support academia, research, delivering for patients, communities and hospitals and on a wider scale for industry, and will embed that. We are about balanced regional development. I will be saying it over and over again. It is important to me that we see investment. Locating courses in these areas is important. Will the Minister comment on the importance of the regional perspective in what he has seen from HEA today? I thank the Minister because in the Mountbellow campus in my constituency of Roscommon-Galway, they are looking at veterinary courses. To become a rural pet and based in a community, what better place than our university campus in Mountbellow?

Deputy Simon Harris

I thank my colleague, Senator Dolan. I think she is in favour of balanced regional development anyway. She is passionate about it, as am I, and we talk about it regularly. One of the successes of the Department in its three years of existence has been trying to bring university education into the regions. I love going to the north west and west to towns that are now university towns and counties that are new university counties, seeing the sense of pride and local identification of the opportunities this presents and seeing communities and stakeholders coming together to say this is not a Dublin initiative, that they own it and how to make the most of it. It is quite infectious.

The Deputy is right that evidence-based policy is the best and probably should be the only type of policy we do. It makes sense. We know the more we keep people in the regions and provide opportunities for education and well-paid jobs, the more likely we are to see balanced regional development. People choose to keep their roots there and raise their families. I was delighted about that innovative course from Galway. We need to challenge ourselves to go even further. Sláintecare, for example, talks of moving things out of hospitals into the community, where appropriate. We need our education system to catch up with that and we are seeing examples of that in the projects coming through today. The Department of Health is looking at how to upskill pharmacists, where appropriate. It has to be about everyone working to the maximum of their scope, their licence and what is appropriate to do. There is enough work in healthcare and healthcare demands so we need everyone working to the optimum level. We need to go further. Apprenticeships for nursing provide huge opportunities. In case anybody watching this panics, I am not talking about in any way changing from the degree model for nursing. That model was important but we can deliver degrees as apprenticeships.

If we can deliver the nursing degree as an apprenticeship, it will open nursing to men and women who took time out from work to care for their family, or whatever might have been the case, and who want to return to work but cannot go to college full time because they need to earn while they are learning and need to do placements in a different way. The apprenticeship model could bring a diversification into nursing, as well as extra numbers.

We will this year provide pathways from further education and training, FET, to higher education, HE, but we need to do more. We must ensure that people who start a healthcare course - I am thinking particularly of nursing - in a college of further education are not then put into a lottery to decide if they can go on to degree level but are instead guaranteed that what they are doing from day one in FET counts towards their ultimate destination of a nursing degree.

The proposition made by the Atlantic Technological University, ATU, in Letterkenny and Mountbellew to provide veterinary medicine is exciting. That will now go through to the next phase. We do need to expand the number of veterinary places in Ireland with one eye on the importance of the regions. I will keep in touch with the Senator on that topic.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank the Minister. The piece of business he had to do in the Department of Justice was very short.

Deputy Simon Harris

That is so.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Other Ministers may have used the opportunity to escape thereafter. I am glad he has taken the time to do an "ask me anything" session with committee members. I appreciate that.

Deputy Simon Harris

Anything within reason.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I have a list of questions as long as my arm and I do not think I will get through all of them. I am going to start with the news of the day, as the Minister described it, about the HEA expression of interest process. Like others on the committee, I turned to my own region and was delighted to see that the three bids from the South East Technological University, SETU, had been judged viable to go on to the next stage of the process. Those bids related to veterinary and pharmacy places, and an expansion of the nursing places. I asked the Taoiseach about this issue on the floor of the Dáil earlier today. He expressed the opinion that in the fullness of time, we might need all of these places. I know there is now a process whereby these expressions of interest go to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform. A full business case must be developed. It is at that point the rubber meets the road. I would like an insight from the Minister as to how long he thinks that process will take. Does he have an opinion or insight as to how many of those places that have overcome the first hurdle are expected to be rolled out and the timeline for that?

Deputy Simon Harris

I thank the Deputy and join him in acknowledging the success of the SETU. I also acknowledge that he has been an enormous supporter of the university. We have gone from no university in the south east to one. We have moved from an aspiration in respect of the Waterford Crystal site to having secured it, with plans coming on for student accommodation. Whatever happens beyond this point, there have been very high-quality applications that are being seen as such not just by me or the Deputy but by independent panels that are assessing them. That is a credit to the leadership of the SETU and I acknowledge that publicly.

The Department of Health is of the view that all of the places that have been identified will be required by it in the coming years. It will be a matter for me and the Minister for Health, through the Estimates process and, more particularly, through the national development plan review process, to secure the funding and try to programmatically roll that out. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, his officials and I have a piece of work to do on identifying how many of the veterinary places the system suggests could be provided are viewed as needed by his Department. We will then engage with the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. I want to be in a position to be moving this forward in the autumn. I want to see additional capacity coming onstream across the disciplines in 2024. Where we are looking to establish new schools, we must be honest that it is more likely to be 2025 in reality. However, there is still room for us to see the expansion of courses in 2024.

I will say, in respect of veterinary medicine, that the HEA report refers to the importance of regional balance and regional development. That will have to be a factor. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine and I have said that we are not ruling in or out any project in the sense that we are not saying there will only be one project because there may be more than one. We will now work with the institutions to prepare their business cases. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine will then identify how many of the 230 additional places identified by the system it believes it will need in the coming years.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That is useful. There is a way to run yet.

The technological universities have been a driver towards the balanced regional development to which Senator Dolan referred and for which we are all striving. An issue in respect of transformational funding has been raised with me consistently. Transformational funding was extremely important in the introduction of multicampus universities and trying to integrate systems and ensuring that staffing worked out correctly. All of those were important. I understand that transformational funding is coming to an end. Several universities have expressed to me that there is still a need for it and while they have travelled very far down the road to becoming one single, combined institution, they are not fully there, and the transformational funding will still be important, going forward. What are the Minister's thoughts on that matter?

Deputy Simon Harris

I am conscious that the first job was to establish the TUs, and a great amount of work has been done by an incredible number of people to get to this point. We are now going through the process of assessing projects that are under way and may require, for example, an extension. The HEA and my own Department are considering what other funding avenues may be available. I am thinking in particular of things like the European Regional Development Fund, ERDF, where €83 million is available. There is also the national recovery and resilience fund, to which €40 million is allocated. We are doing this on a project-by-project basis. We are assessing projects that may require an extension. I am due to meet the chairs and presidents of the TUs on Thursday. There will be an opportunity to tease this through with them. I am trying to avoid a cliff edge. We want to invest in these new institutions. We have asked them to do things and start projects and no one intends to leave them hanging. However, at the same time, we need to move from a transformation fund to a more regular way of funding going forward. We will tease the issue through with the representatives of the technological universities but there absolutely must be some form of step-down funding, rather than a cliff edge, after the transition fund. We are working that through now. I hope that provides some reassurance to them.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I will stay with the TUs, which we need to function as research institutions. The Minister will not be blindsided by the following question because I have put it to him previously. I feel, as do the institutions, that there is a need to develop a professorship model so that we encourage that research facility. These institutions can be huge engines for research in each of their regions. We also need a review of academic contracts. We know that the balance of the contracts previously on offer in the institutes of technology was in favour of teaching. The teaching burden is such that it is difficult to meaningfully integrate research into such a role. What are the Minister's thoughts about where the State ought to go to restructure what the TUs, as institutes of technology, do so we can encourage that research capacity?

Deputy Simon Harris

We in the Department are in the same place as the Deputy on the evidence of how he has presented the situation. We need to see a step change in research capacity in the TUs if they are to achieve their full mission. That will certainly require professors. It will also require an opportunity for those contract discussions to take place. The Deputy will be aware that I brought the OECD report in respect of what contracts might look like. It was clear and stark, quite frankly, that there is a big body of work to do because Ireland's current contract structure is not comparable to the position in other TUs or their equivalents in other OECD countries. I want to be clear to anybody listening who is working in a technological university that any changes will be matters for negotiation. People sometimes say that we are having all these conversations but have not sat down and talked to them. We are trying to make sure we are in a position to have a meaningful conversation. We are working with the TUs to make the case to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform and others for the need for this change. My officials met with representatives of the technological universities last week and I will do so tomorrow morning. We will tease this through. If we get to a contract place, it will be an opportunity for people to opt in to new contracts rather than people losing their current terms and conditions. There is an interesting and important conversation to be had in that respect. We want to be able to have a meaningful conversation and that is why we have been trying to get our own ducks lined up with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform before we formally enter those conversations.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I think the Minister will get to escape for a short period.

Deputy Simon Harris

There is a vote in the Dáil Chamber.

Sitting suspended at 6.19 p.m. and resumed at 6.38 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Ó Cathasaigh asked about the inability of technological universities to appoint professors. In the current academic context, there was an OECD report. Is it ready to be published? Does the Minister have a timeline for it? This issue was raised when I visited some of the TUs. I tried to explain that there is an OECD report. The Minister is right in saying there is a journey that report must go on. When will he bring it to Government and what are the steps to be taken after that?

How would we get the technological universities to make the transition? They need to bring their standards right up. I am not saying they have low standards but there have to be specific standards. We will be depending on TUs over the next number years. With the increase in population, there will be many more students looking for places as we encourage more young people to go on to third level education. How will the Government do that?

Deputy Simon Harris

I fully agree with the Cathaoirleach and Deputy Ó Cathasaigh on this. We need to get to a point where we can have professors appointed in our TUs and offer academic contracts that are fit for purpose and reflective of the mission of the technological university. We brought the OECD report to Cabinet in December and published it then. It outlines where Ireland is at and gives suggestions as to where it believes Ireland needs to be. It also outlines international comparators which are very useful. We are now working to develop the case for the advancement of that with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform.

We have had very good engagement with the technological universities. My officials are in close contact with them and I will be meeting their representatives in the morning. We are trying to arrive at a point where we have a contract that will allow more time for research and working with industry because we are trying to deliver on the technological universities' mission. This mission is not vague; it is set out in legislation. Once we have the case built up with the Department, we will engage with representative bodies on the issue. The model will be that new staff join on the new contract, once that is in place. I reiterate that anybody who is on an existing contract will have an option to opt in or not. There will be a contract for the future for technological universities. People can then opt in if they already have a contract and new people will start on that contract.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Minister liaising with the TUs at the moment?

Deputy Simon Harris

Yes, we are liaising very closely. My officials met them as recently as last week and I will meet all the TU presidents and chairpersons to discuss a wide agenda tomorrow morning. I have no doubt this issue will come up.

An Cathaoirleach

This issue was raised with the committee on our travels.

Deputy Simon Harris

Being honest, there is a common view here among everybody. We need to advance that to a point where we can have success in the conversations we need to have with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and others.

An Cathaoirleach

I know the Minister is due to make an announcement on the accommodation issue. There are a large number of colleges with courses that are specific to the college in question and the course is not available anywhere else in Ireland. Optometry in TU Dublin is an example. I think there are between 40 and 50 students on the course. TU Dublin also offers a degree in medical science. On our visit, I asked for a show of hands of how many students were from Dublin and how many were from other parts of the country. I was amazed. There were students from every county in the country. If these courses were available in other colleges, many more people would be able to access them. Is the Department looking at what courses are available in colleges? That would help in determining where similar courses could be provided by different colleges.

The Department is considering where to offer more veterinary studies and medicine course. I will return to that issue. In TU Dublin I spoke to one girl from the west whose family is making major financial sacrifices to put her through college. If that course was offered in Galway, Kerry or Limerick, it would have been much easier for her. She might have been able to travel home each evening. That is just one example but many parents are making the same sacrifices. Dublin is a very expensive place for students to live.

Deputy Simon Harris

I completely agree. As the Cathaoirleach knows better than most, we have been trying to bring university education into the regions. Even though we have done that, there will still be certain courses for which people will need to go to certain universities to access. I am very conscious of the autonomy of the universities and obviously they decide what courses they provide. They have opportunities in their strategic statements to outline their vision. Sometimes there can be particular issues around placements. It sometimes simply does not work to provide a college course in one location if there is not a matching placement available in the healthcare system there.

My message to all of the institutes is that we will work with them. We have shown promise in that regard today. We will work with a college if there are courses the college believes it could provide to satisfy demand and regional balance. We will work with the college to tease out the various issues. Some of these may be for our Department in terms of cost and some of them may be for other Departments in terms of placements.

The second point is linked. The Cathaoirleach gave the example of TU Dublin. At the moment, TU Dublin does not have any college-owned accommodation. This is not a criticism, by any means. The college has not been empowered to do that until now but we need to fix that. This is one of the biggest higher education institutes, if not the biggest, in the country. It has a state-of-the-art campus. A person would be proud to come to Dublin to study there but it needs accommodation to go with it. Of course, when we invest Government money, which we are now doing for the first time in the history of the State, we demand in return for such investment that a certain amount of the accommodation is ring-fenced at below market rates.

We are open to and willing to support the provision of new courses in new universities where universities have not provided them before if a case can be made that there is demand for the skills in the economy and the region. We are open to working with people and where they have to travel, we want to see purpose-built college-owned, or at least college-accessed, student accommodation at affordable rents.

An Cathaoirleach

On the issue of student accommodation, the Minister spoke about Waterford. On a recent committee visit to the city, the president of SETU told us the college had a site and wanted to build. TU Dublin also wants to build. Site availability is probably the biggest obstacle in that case. When will the Minister make an announcement regarding accommodation for TUs and other universities?

Deputy Simon Harris

I want to just acknowledge that TU Dublin's master plan has identified the need for student accommodation. Tomorrow, I will announce the appointment of expertise to work with the TUs to advance their plans. Waterford is a little different and I will come back to it presently. In general, the TUs have never been able to build accommodation before. As a result, we cannot expect them to have a plan to dust down. It has been different for UCD or UCC. They have had plans. Some of them have not been viable because of the cost of construction. We are trying to help them to get those moving. I want to have a situation where all the TUs are banging down my door to build student accommodation. I want the political tension, insofar as there is any, to be around the question of why we are not funding this quicker and why we cannot get it done. We are not yet at the point where we can go back to the Department with ten, 15 or 20 plans coming in from the universities or TUs on student accommodation but we need to get there. In making these comments I am not being not critical of the sector. We need to support the universities and my intention tomorrow is to provide them with the support that will enable them to come forward with plans that we can then move through the process into planning.

Housing is the biggest crisis the country faces. Our sector has an obligation to students to try to provide solutions. I think we have a bigger obligation. The Taoiseach has been very clear. The policy is called Housing for All and is for everybody in this country. It about providing all the housing that we need. Rather than just letting the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage shoulder all the burden, it is up to every Department to consider what it can do to help address the biggest crisis the country faces. I am simply not going to accept a scenario in which I, my Department or its agencies or the colleges adopt some sort of piecemeal approach to this. We will go to Government to request funding for ambitious plans to work with the sector to significantly expand the supply of student accommodation.

I want to get to a point where, by appointing expertise tomorrow, our universities, particularly our TUs, can come back to me in early 2024 with a plan which we can help to get over the line. The second thing I want to do tomorrow is to try to have identified the requirement of each region. I had a very good meeting with the presidents of the universities yesterday and I am sure I will have a good one with TU presidents tomorrow.

I had a very good meeting with Irish Universities Association presidents yesterday and I am sure I will have a good one with technological university presidents tomorrow. We have to look at this. In certain parts of the country we should not be precious about stating accommodation is for a specific university. It should be accommodation for students in that area. We see this in other countries not too far from here. We should look at Dublin, Cork, Galway and the south east and see what are the student accommodation needs. We should get everybody to come together and meet that student accommodation need rather than institutions being precious and stating student accommodation is theirs. The scale of the challenge is too big for small solutions or small ideas. We need to challenge ourselves to be ambitious.

An Cathaoirleach

The Minister spoke about medicine and veterinary education. I will be parochial in the same way as Deputy Ó Cathasaigh. I have an interest in veterinary education. I studied at Kildalton College and I know it is very much part and parcel of SETU's application for veterinary education. I know the Minister cannot give away too much as there is a process that must be gone through. A question asked of me today was whether the process will be dragged out for months. When does the Minister believe a decision will be made? There are a number of options. Will one of the options be taken or will pieces of several of the options be chosen? When does the Minister believe this will be finalised? It will be September 2024 at the earliest. A lot of work must be done by the colleges regardless of whatever option the Minister goes with. When does he believe a final decision will be made on this?

Deputy Simon Harris

Young people are doing their leaving certificate right now and many of them will want to vets. In September, many of them will pack their bags and head to other countries in the European Union to become vets. There is always a degree of this but it is completely disproportionate in Ireland. A total of 65% of new entrants to the Veterinary Council register last year were educated abroad. We need to do something as quickly as we can while being truthful and realistic.

The HEA asked the sector what it could do. It put in place an expert panel that included members of the Veterinary Council and the chief veterinary officer. Four projects were deemed as viable with the potential to be able to deliver veterinary education. These are the expansion of UCD, the South East Technological University with, as the Cathaoirleach said, the Kildalton College campus, the University of Limerick and an Atlantic Technological University proposal for a dual campus location between Letterkenny and Mountbellew, which we discussed earlier with Senator Dolan. These are the four proposals that have been deemed as viable to proceed to the next phase of assessment, which is a preliminary business case. The national development plan, which funds capital, will be reviewed in October. I want to be in a position to have proposals, ideas and options with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine for this review process.

In the process we have gone through, the education system stated that in theory there could be 230 additional places. A key issue will be to work with colleagues in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to establish the number we believe we need. The system says it can provide 230, but what number do we and our colleagues in the Department believe we should try to put in place in the coming years? By the time of the national development plan review, I hope to be in a position, along with the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, to try to take some of these proposals forward. It is very encouraging that good solid projects have come forward and been assessed as having real potential. We will work to evaluate them further and build up the cases.

An Cathaoirleach

With regard to the Wexford campus, the compulsory purchase order is almost complete. It is going through without any major hiccups. The chief executive of Wexford County Council is in contact with the Department and the Secretary General. He very much appreciates, as do I as a public representative, what the Department is doing. Is the Department working with SETU and other partners on putting together the master plan so that we are not waiting until we get it over the line before moving on to the next step? Is work being done on other parts of the design and getting ready to go to planning as soon as possible?

How will the conversation start about what courses will be in Wexford? Who will be part of it? It will include SETU and its governing body along with the Department. In the same way as other counties, Wexford has its own strengths. The Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, is based in Wexford. There are also a large number of financial services in County Wexford. Waterford has many pharmaceutical companies. It is about working with industry. This is about the region. It is not only about Wexford, Waterford, Kilkenny or Carlow but also about the region working together. Somebody living in Carlow can get into a car and be in Waterford in 35 or 40 minutes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

There is also a great train service.

An Cathaoirleach

The Minister understands where I am coming from. It is a small region. We should work with industry and the strengths each county has.

Deputy Simon Harris

The Cathaoirleach is entirely right. We have all been making this point for a long time and, in fairness, there are many believers in this room. It is always about the region. We all wear our county jerseys from time to time and that it is important. We are elected to Dáil Éireann to represent our constituents. The regional impact of these technological universities is where the real transformation will be. The strategic plan published in recent weeks by the South East Technological University recognises this. It set out the vision for the region. It is about every part of the region playing to its strengths, as the Cathaoirleach rightly said.

I will not get into the individual veterinary college proposals but today we saw SETU recognise that Kildalton College in Kilkenny has real potential because of the tradition in the agricultural college there. It is not being small-minded but asking how we play to our advantage and then complement the work being done in each part of the region. The straight answer to a straight question is that it is a matter for SETU, and its governing authority and chair in consultation with the executive, to decide how it wishes to provide courses throughout the region. We stand ready to support it on proposals and ideas and work with it and the HEA in this regard. It is for SETU to decide quite rightly and properly what is provided in each part of the region and on what campus.

We were very clear as we established SETU that a Wexford campus would be a very important part of it. I have been on the Wexford campus with the Cathaoirleach. I am very proud of the work that is being done in Wexford. I was very taken by some of the learners I met who told me if the campus had not been there, they would not have been able to access a university education. This shows the importance of being able to provide education locally. I met some lone parents who spoke openly to me about the fact that if they had had to travel to Waterford, it would not have worked for them. It has a particularly good tradition of lifelong learning. I was very struck by this when I went there.

I am also conscious that the technological universities have a mandate in law to engage with industry. The Cathaoirleach made a point about the skills needs in County Wexford, and there is an opportunity to explore it. I express my gratitude to Wexford County Council for the role it has played. I am conscious of the CPO process needing to conclude and I do not want to cut across it. We stand ready to assist. I know SETU has been doing some thinking on the Wexford site also. We will work with it on capital applications as they are made.

An Cathaoirleach

The most important part of any capital application is the financial funding commitment. Any time I am on local radio or speaking to local reporters, I am asked whether funding will be available for the construction of the buildings required on any campus.

Deputy Simon Harris

I have not been on South East Radio with Alan Corcoran in a while so I ask the Cathaoirleach to send him my best. He always asks me that question also, and the Cathaoirleach can tell him directly from me that we remain absolutely committed. The Cathaoirleach reminds me regularly of the importance of delivering for the site. The State is not in the business of purchasing assets to leave them lying idle. This will be a significant investment in terms of securing a site. We are doing this because we want to be ambitious in terms of the campus in Wexford. When I say "we", I know that SETU wishes to be there and we wish to support it.

All capital applications have to go through various stages, as the Chair knows, but the commitment to develop the Wexford campus and secure the site is real. A great deal of time has been invested by the Secretary General, Wexford County Council, others and me in ensuring that we make progress in that regard. We are determined to do so. We work closely with the governing authority, the president, Professor Veronica Campbell, and Wexford Oireachtas Members. The next step is ensuring that a site is secured. I look forward to that happening soon.

An Cathaoirleach

I used SETU as an example of technological universities not being allow to take the lead in teacher training courses, but students could save a great deal of money by doing their masters in education to qualify as secondary school teachers at technological universities across the country. They could do part of their courses in a technological university and the other part in a university in Limerick, Cork, Galway or Dublin. Many families are struggling and, while the Government is doing a great deal to help them with the cost of living, we need to think outside the box and use technological universities as a means of assisting families and students. These students would get the same qualifications at the end of their courses and the technological universities would be elevated a step in the quality of the work they turned out. Is this something that the Minister would encourage or something his Department would consider? The HEA would have to be part of any conversation or decision in this regard. Has the Minister plans to address the matter or has it been discussed with him by any of the technological universities' presidents or governing bodies?

Deputy Simon Harris

Teacher education policy is a matter for my ministerial colleague, Deputy Foley, in the first instance but there is an openness from her and the Department of Education to engage on this issue. As far as I am aware, that Department's policy is one of developing centres of excellence in teacher education, but perhaps that can be advanced through technological universities working with established providers. We have seen examples of that in the west. We spoke about St. Angela's and how the home economics teaching there was going to be incorporated in a technological university. If the question is whether there is an openness from us to having the conversation, there is, but we will be led from a policy point of view by the Department of Education. Without straying into its work, my sense is that it is in the space of partnering with existing providers and the like, which would, in theory, address the Cathaoirleach's point around being able to access such education in his region. I will engage with the Minister, Deputy Foley, on the matter. I am satisfied that we can both revert to the committee with a view.

An Cathaoirleach

I apologise, as I took a little over six minutes.

Deputy Simon Harris

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

I will give my two colleagues the same leeway. I know that Deputy Ó Cathasaigh wants to leave, so if Senator Dolan does not mind, I will let him contribute first.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Before I ask my questions, I support the Chair's view on teacher education. I am not saying that the centres of excellence model is outdated, but the list of centres available within the State is old. If I am right, it dates back quite a number of years. It could be updated. There is a history of education, particularly lifelong education, at the Waterford campus of SETU. It is a space I would like to see SETU getting into, as quite a number of the young people who leave the south east do so to engage in teacher training. Everyone would like to see that flow of young people reversed.

I wish to ask a number of questions that arise from my engagement with the Postgraduate Workers' Organisation, PWO. I am sure the Minister has received the same correspondence and seen the questions already. They relate to a review that his Department has been undertaking in respect of PhDs. A number of issues have been identified, but chief among those we should examine if we are serious about expanding research capacity is the need to make a decision about employee status for PhD students. They are in an undefined space and we are probably out of step with most of our European partners in how we define it. Similarly, we need to examine how we provide residency visas for PhD candidates and students from outside the EU. I believe they have to update their visas annually, meaning there is a yearly cost, even though we know they will be in Ireland for four years. They also receive minimum rates of pay. How do we make the four-year process of earning a doctorate affordable for people and reward the incredibly valuable research work they do during their studies? I am sure this matter has come across the Minister's desk already, but I wanted to put the question, seeing as how I had the opportunity.

Deputy Simon Harris

I thank the Deputy for raising it. This is an area where I am determined to make progress. Our country's future economic and social well-being is dependent on human capital. We spend a great deal of time in the Oireachtas speaking about capital, but we do not speak enough about it in the context of human capital. An example of what we can do in this regard is to invest in research innovation, the ability of that to translate into academia, industry and the regions, and the contribution that Ireland Inc. can make to meeting some national and global challenges. This is why we decided to commission an independent review. I am grateful to its co-chairs. I believe it was yesterday that I brought the first output of the review to the Cabinet. It will be published early next week, probably on Monday.

We need to make progress on the stipend. I cannot get into budget day commitments and the like – we all know the process we have to go through – but the stipend is an issue. We have made some progress. When I entered this Department, we moved to equalise the Irish Research Council, IRC, and Science Foundation Ireland, SFI, stipends. The IRC one was much lower. We have seen some increase in the stipends, but we have more to do. Let us say that we will all be shocked if the report does not indicate that.

As the Deputy rightly said, work also needs to be done on how we support PhD researchers in mitigating the challenges they experience with the visa system, spousal access to the labour market, etc. The review's first output will address these matters as well and make recommendations, on which my Department will have to liaise with the Department of Justice.

I have met researchers and it is fair to say that people have strong views on the question of employee status. I have an open mind on it, but the most important issue is how we support people and address matters like maternity benefit, paternity benefit, career pathways, healthcare supports and stipends. Some of the countries that do this well classify their PhD researchers as employees while others do not. The most important thing we can do is to ensure that the supports for PhD researchers become much better than they are today. There are equally strong views on both sides of the debate and I have heard them both. Let us see where the reviews bring us, but my approach is that we must support PhD researchers better. We must keep people in Ireland, and attract others from outside, to do research so that the best and the brightest are working here. Something that came out of the stakeholder engagement was that we needed to ensure that some of the supports in place through universities were available to PhD researchers as well and that that information was known to them.

The stipends need to increase, we need to support PhD researchers better financially and we need to consider supports outside the stipend, particularly those having to do with maternity. We need to address career pathways and making the visa process easier and more streamlined. We have much to do.

I am not approaching it from an ideological viewpoint but from the point of view that we have to make real progress here and the practical steps we can take. The first step is the publication next week, and then we will go forward to the Estimates process.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank the Minister. That is very helpful.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I thank the Minister for staying with us as I know it is a busy time for him. On some of the things the Minister mentioned, he spoke about pre-entry nursing and apprenticeships, and the importance of people, students and young people, knowing there are all of these different routes to getting the career they would like. In the years ahead, when one thinks about the future and how the world of work will change, how are we preparing our students now? Part of my question is around the different careers someone will have in his or her lifetime. We are preparing students to be resilient and everything else, hopefully in our secondary schools. At third level we are building resilience into our students. I know the Minister is doing an awful lot around mental health, well-being and so on. Ireland is excellent and nearly 60% of 18- to 24-year-olds go on to third level and further and higher education, which is among the highest in Europe. However, we do not rank so highly when it comes to lifelong learning. I really appreciated that the Minister highlighted that he has a real interest in part-time students and lone parents. He talked a little about online access and other innovative ways to reach those people. What I am trying to look at here is lifelong learning and how we try to see that people can have all of these routes to college and that they can do a course and have a career for ten years but can also change and come back in and maybe there is another opportunity to do that. I have one question on that and if I have another few minutes, I might ask one or two other questions, if I may. Is that okay?

An Cathaoirleach

Go ahead. That is okay.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I appreciate the Minister is doing the national review of State supports for PhD researchers. As I mentioned before, I was a research contract for a good bit. We need some flexibility here. I agree in that we get a lot of Exchequer and non-Exchequer funding for awards that are for four or five years. We build excellent research teams. These research teams may stay in college, and they may then progress to industry, or they may just be in Ireland for a short period. Flexibility is needed around that and I agree with that point.

On tomorrow's announcement about student accommodation for the technological universities, TUs, that is very welcome and I look forward to hearing about that. I know there are more than 600 units in the city of Galway and that will be incredible. There is the University of Galway. They are working with the local authorities to provide more accommodation. I really appreciate the innovation shown by university presidents, boards and so on to work with local authorities around this. It will relieve the pressure on rental accommodation within the city. All of this will be of benefit. As the Minister said, it is housing for all and it will benefit the city as a whole.

The Minister spoke about the cost of education review. The part-time or lone parent student were mentioned. Along with the questions on resilience, career changing and all of this, I will ask a question about transport. Improved public transport was raised. Does the Minister's Department link in with Iarnród Éireann, Bus Éireann or Local Link? A lot of changes were made by the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan. I refer to regional areas and TUs and campuses. In Mountbellew, for example, there is a new bus service that goes from Ballinasloe, which is a train station, to Mountbellew and to Castlerea. It is linking our towns. If we are looking at making our campus cities and towns viable and being able to get students there, it is a challenge. If we are looking at veterinary places, how will we get students there? Is there a role for the Minister's Department in terms of how it works with the Department of Transport around this and in feeding into this? At a local level, I am trying to fight hard for a Local Link service. I am sure people will remember there used to be a lot of traffic on the old Dublin to Galway road before we got the motorway. There are a lot of students who would have caught a bus on the old Dublin to Galway road but now the bus does not go that way as it uses the motorway. There are a lot of areas where students may not need accommodation if they can get to and from university.

I also have a huge issue around train services. One cannot get out of Galway to go east on a train or a bus sometimes after 6 p.m. or 7 p.m. One is waiting until midnight or 1 a.m. to get a bus that goes to the airport. How does the Minister see how his Department could input into the Department of Transport? I know it is not his remit or area but when we are building these regional bases and hubs, transport is a real challenge in the areas I am in. I had to deal with school bus transport as well.

My final question is about the National Training Fund, which was raised. Does the Minister have any comments to make on it or any plans? I thank the Minister for his time.

Deputy Simon Harris

Go raibh maith agat Senator Dolan. There are a couple of things there. The Senator is right on resilience. I say in a complimentary fashion about the Department of Education rather than anything else but a lot of the skills we learn, we learn them before we arrive in third level, in terms of how we are prepared for third level education and to pick a discipline, to focus and the likes. I very much welcome the work the Department of Education and my colleague the Minister, Deputy Norma Foley, is doing in terms of senior cycle reform. It is a real effort to rethink how we prepare students and to move beyond just rote learning. What used to be rather disparagingly called soft skills, which are now called transversal skills and are now seen as being in big demand, are important. I note a number of universities, as they review their curriculums and programmes, are looking at how to embed those transversal skills in programmes. That is what employers look for as well. There is interesting stuff going on there.

We are very excited to launch our National Tertiary Office in the coming weeks. I am delighted that Dr. Fiona Maloney has been appointed to head that up. This will be a structure that we will now have in place to look at that piece the Senator talked about, namely, different pathways to getting a third level qualification. I am excited about that.

I am really pleased the Senator Dolan brought up lifelong learning because we can be truthful and at the same time disingenuous in how we present education statistics. I could sit here today and factually say Ireland is one of the best performers when it comes to higher education, which we are, we have more people attending higher education in younger age groups than probably any other country in the European Union and so on. All of that is entirely factually correct.

Senator Aisling Dolan

It is pretty amazing.

Deputy Simon Harris

It is a huge credit to successive governments and officials and the work of the generation that went before us but - it is a big but - it is a very narrow view of the "word" education. All of what I said is true of one basically believes education is something one does in primary school and secondary school and then goes straight to college to do one's degree, maybe a masters and leave. When we include in education, as the Senator rightly did, lifelong learning, we are in a much more challenging position. That is the challenge of our generation. For those working in education policy now, their challenge is to recognise the word "education" and our understanding of it is different. It is not a set period of time in one's life. It is a lifelong journey. There are people in well-paid secure jobs and who are well-qualified who need to continue to dip in and out of and access to education. If we succeed, and we cannot afford not to, the profile of the student in Ireland will change very significantly. I say this all of the time but I believe it. More and more, students will be 40-odd years of age with a couple of kids, caring for a parent or whatever, but they will still need to access education. A four year full-time degree will not always work for them because they are holding down a job and paying a mortgage. The challenge for us is that the OECD skills report presents it starkly. We need to take the level of success we have had with the traditional view of the "word" education and bring that same vigour to lifelong learning. The statistics are clear.

Lifelong learning is measured by the participation of the adult population between the ages of 25 and 64 who were education and training in the last four weeks. If we start to measure at age 25 and go to 64, EUROSTAT measures that in Ireland the figure was 13.6% in 2021, which is not the worst and it is about average. Who wants to be average, right? The top EU performers are Sweden and Finland. Sweden had a rate of 34.7% and Finland had a rate of 30.5%. What does that mean? Effectively, it means Ireland's participation rate in lifelong learning is only 40% of the rate of participation in learning by adults in the top performing countries.

Senator Aisling Dolan

That is incredible.

Deputy Simon Harris

That is a wake-up call for us. That has to be flashing on all of our radars and that is why I am excited about things we have coming, such as microcredentials. Our platform launches on 12 July, looking at how to provide access in bite-size pieces, for the want of a more technical phrase. There is a large body of work to do. Jumping to the Senator's point on the National Training Fund, NTF, that is where that comes in. Every employer in Ireland or almost every employer has been paying into this, effectively paying a tax or levy to the Government to prepare for this challenge and to make sure we can upskill and reskill people. The good news is that there is a load of money sitting in an account.

It is in surplus and will hit a surplus of €1.5 billion by the end of the year. There is an onus and responsibility on the Government and the Oireachtas to come up with a plan for that. The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coveney, and I have been tasked by the Taoiseach to do just that. Our teams have been working very hard. We will try to bring forward ideas in advance of the budget as to how we can help citizens to access lifelong learning. It was very clear in the OECD skills review that there is no reluctance on the part of Irish people to access it. Far from it; they want to access it. How do we make that work, however? People are time poor. How do we support people? How do we incentivise employers? Let us be honest; there is a divide here. We are grateful for what the big multinationals do, but they may be in a position to provide their employees with access the small and medium enterprises, perhaps in the Senator's part of the world, may not be. That conversation is going on. I am very pleased the Senator raised the issue of lifelong learning.

I have special praise for the president and team at the University of Galway, who have shown real leadership on the student accommodation issue. Many people come to the Government with problems and define the problems. We are great at defining problems at great length but sometimes we need to move to solutions. The University of Galway team are powering ahead, for which I thank them, with an innovative model of partnering with the private sector to get stuff done. I thank them for that. I also acknowledge that they and Atlantic Technological University are now working together to explore options around student accommodation. Again, that is the sort of bigger, regional thinking we need.

The Senator is right that transport is not my direct area but it is an area on which I hear from students. I acknowledge the work the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, has done around reducing the cost of public transport for all people, especially young people. Obviously, that only comes into play if they can access public transport, which is the second piece I know the Minister and the Government are working on. I note from the Connecting Ireland Rural Mobility Plan that we saw the first year of implementation of Connecting Ireland last year. We saw 38 new and enhanced services launched. My understanding is 67 new and enhanced services are due to be launched this year. There are definitely possibilities and opportunities in that regard for college routes, if I can call them that, to benefit. The role of my Department is to support the Minister, Deputy Ryan, in his effort to continue to expand that, and to encourage universities and colleges to engage with local authorities and local transport providers in putting forward the applications for those new and enhanced routes.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I thank the Minister. I appreciate his response. On the opportunity around lifelong learning, whether it is about engaging part time or it involves lone parents, maybe the age of 65 is too low. I know of many people who have retired and have gone back to do PhDs and postdocs in their 70s. If we expanded that age limit, what figures would come back? Even locally, I know that. People at different stages of their lives who are re-engaging with learning, or who have a passion for a particular sector or topic or something practical, could be facilitated through the education and training boards, ETBs, or in schools or colleges of further education in their own time. It is also about mental health and well-being. Lifelong learning prevents isolation and connects people with a new group and learning environment. It provides a lot of hope for people who usually have a lot of ideas. There are a lot of wins for us in that regard.

Deputy Simon Harris

I fully agree with the Senator. The cut-off age of 64 in the EUROSTAT data is its view of the world and not ours. I met a very accomplished former public official the other day. This was somebody who had been involved in public life who had recently retired. I spoke to this person about how it was going and they said, "I am able to learn again." It is true. We all do our jobs. People go to work and do their jobs to the best of their ability but when they retire, they all of a sudden find there are opportunities to learn a language or skill. One of the things we will do as part of European Year of Skills, which I had better plug, is to launch a campaign in September to encourage everybody to learn a new skill, by picking one skill they want to learn this year - the Chair can tell me what his is later - and make a conscious effort to learn it.

I will make a final point in response to the Senator's question on PhDs. We need to have more than one model and more than one way to do a PhD. People talk about apprenticeships a lot. How many people know that in Ireland, they can do a PhD as an apprentice? There is a level 10 PhD apprenticeship in Ireland. That is one of the different routes. We need to look at work-based PhDs, as well as that traditional academic model, if we want to really embed and diversify the PhD population.

An Cathaoirleach

I will follow up on the stipend for PhD students. It is an issue raised in the Irish Universities Association, IUA, report. Will this issue be solved as part of the budgetary process?

Deputy Simon Harris

I would like to make progress in the budget. Again, you get into trouble if you announce what will be in the budget-----

An Cathaoirleach

I understand that.

Deputy Simon Harris

-----but I will put it like this. Making progress in respect of PhD researchers is a priority ask from me in the conversations I will have with the Government. Often, not everything is done in one budget but I want to put us on a pathway to get to a better place. It is important to say that many Departments are involved in this and have an interest in us succeeding in this agenda. However, there are also many Departments involved in funding. While SFI and IRC stipends come under the remit of my Department, Teagasc comes under the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and the Health Research Board is under the Department of Health. Individual universities provide their own stipends as well. There are a few moving parts in this but step one is to publish this report next week, and then engage with colleagues to try to make progress on the Estimates.

An Cathaoirleach

I will raise another issue. I recently attended a British Irish Chamber of Commerce conference in the UK. I am not sure whether anyone from the Department was present. It was very interesting. A significant number of academics from Ireland and the UK were present, including a number of university and technological university presidents and others. We know the UK is no longer eligible for European Horizon funding, as a result of Brexit, which was a big issue at the conference for both sides, including the Irish universities. I was taken aback by some of the contributions from the Irish attendees. When you think it through, it makes sense this will be an issue for Ireland as well because so many Irish students are going abroad to study.

I am not sure whether the Minister has had a conversation with his British counterpart on this issue. It is very important that the British are part and parcel of Horizon funding. I am not sure whether, as part of the autumn-winter work programme, the British Irish Chamber of Commerce will be brought in to discuss some of the issues raised at the conference and some of the challenges it saw as regards Horizon funding. I am not sure whether the Minister can say too much or what he can say. Is it on his horizon - pardon the pun - that this is an issue coming down the tracks and is a challenge for both sides? It is very easy for an Irish Government to say, "Lads, you voted for Brexit so off you go", but there are many challenges for Ireland if the UK is not part of that Horizon funding.

Deputy Simon Harris

I acknowledge the good work done by the British Irish Chamber of Commerce. Quite frankly, the Windsor Framework now provides opportunity and clarity for these issues to be addressed. Up until that point, the conversation was always about the protocol issue needing to be resolved before those other issues, which were all tied in with Brexit, in respect of Horizon and others, could be addressed. Once the Windsor Framework was put in place and that impasse was overcome, through the British Government working with the European Union, it provided the opportunity for a conversation now about a rise in funding. Quite frankly, however, it is a matter for the British Government to decide its position. The Irish Government is very supportive of Britain being involved in Horizon because it is our nearest neighbour and we want it to do well, because we are interlinked in so many areas of research and education and we want to work with the UK on programmes through Horizon. The factual answer is it is a matter for the British Government to decide now how it wants to proceed. I have heard some issues around the UK developing its own alternative scheme and the like but it is my personal view that I would like to see it opt into Horizon, while respecting it is a matter for the UK.

I will be very clear that we continue to engage closely with the United Kingdom on many issues to do with education and research. The Chair will probably be aware that we have announced, as recently as the past couple of months, the idea of these co-centres in research. These will not just be on a North-South but also will be an east-west basis. We are funding some through SFI and the UK is funding stuff through UK Research and Innovation, UKRI. This will be an opportunity for us to develop research centres that will operate on a North-South and east-west basis. Through SFI, we are looking for opportunities through the shared island fund; the Chair will have seen the funding we announced yesterday.

Regardless of the decisions SFI makes, which are a matter for it, we are extremely eager to work with it on research and innovation opportunities. I have met the UK's Minister of State responsible for science on several occasions and am due to have a bilateral engagement. It is worth noting that the UK saw the wisdom of what we did in this country, including through this incredible new Department. It decided to copy the idea, and we wish it well. There is now a Department of State in the UK that somewhat mirrors ours, although I do not believe it has "Higher Education" in its title. I believe it covers research, innovation and science. A full Secretary of State has been appointed.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Deputy Simon Harris

We have gone global.

An Cathaoirleach

The UK is very envious of the Department we have set up here. I was speaking to a UK Minister and several people involved in university education and they wanted to know how our Department was set up in such a short space of time. Compliments to the Secretary General and all his team, including the Minister. They get plenty of kickback and criticism but credit should be given where due. I am very appreciative.

The National Training Fund was mentioned. I am aware that the Department has done some work in recognition of European Year of Skills 2023. Has it further plans for the period between now and the end of the year to recognise the very important programme in this regard?

Deputy Simon Harris

It does, indeed. The programme runs according to a European year, so it has just kicked off and does not run just for the calendar year. Therefore, we have a little longer than it might seem. "Yes" is the short answer. We now have a website in place but are also kicking off the public awareness campaign on skills and encouraging all people to adopt a skill. We are examining the idea of holding some form of skills summit at which we can really explore some of the work of the OECD skills review, which is really valuable. I am examining several legislative and policy initiatives on skills, some centred on the national training fund conversation we are having and some on the role of the National Skills Council. I thank the members of the council for the work they do in the context of the OECD skills review. Members can expect from us this year an opportunity to encourage the people of this country to get involved with the skills agenda and have a conversation about the National Skills Council and skills infrastructure and how these fit in with the implementation of the OECD skills review. There will be a skills summit also. We will be very actively involved. We had a good debate in the Dáil recently on the European Year of Skills 2023.

An Cathaoirleach

I am aware that the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, has announced mental health supports and a pilot programme for secondary and primary schools. There is a programme to provide mental health supports to third level institutions. What is the position of the Department on that?

Deputy Simon Harris

I will obtain a detailed note for the Chair on that. We have been increasing mental health funding for third level significantly. We are conscious that universities are autonomous in how they decide to deliver supports but we have worked to put in place several initiatives and examples of best practice, including the text support service. We have established the mental health website that the Chair referred to. It entails a partnership approach that I believe originated in the UK. We are continuing to prioritise student supports, and we are doing so through Funding the Future as well. One can expect, from all aspects of government, mental health supports to deal with a challenging issue that became even more challenging after the Covid pandemic and cost-of-living crisis. We will try to make more progress in the budget but I am happy that the Togetherall initiative, in whose launch I was involved, is going well. I am happy that the technical support is going well. As we travelled around the country, we met people working on mental health supports at third level. I have seen the benefit of the Covid funding in beefing up mental health supports. I need to consider how we can embed some of this in more regular core funding. This is the work we are doing under Funding the Future.

An Cathaoirleach

I have one more observation. The committee has done considerable work on STEM subjects and produced a report thereon. We have heard some absolutely fantastic contributions from both witnesses and members. The secretariat is working hard on bringing the report to fruition. There will be ten key recommendations and up to 20 altogether. The committee would very much appreciate it if the Department took this seriously. We have done a huge amount of work on what the technological universities can do regarding STEM so we would appreciate progress on this. I do not believe there is any financial burden on the Minister's Department.

Deputy Simon Harris

We are very proud in our Department to have at least three management board members who are STEM graduates. It is one of the real reasons we have been soaring as a Department.

I really welcome the report and look forward to working with the committee on the recommendations because this is a key area of focus for our economic wellbeing as a country. Only as recently as this week, I turned the sod on a major new STEM building in Munster Technological University's Tralee campus. Through our capital programmes, we will continue to support the development of STEM facilities. What this means in a practical sense in Tralee is capacity for more students, modern laboratories and modern class facilities. A phenomenal construction project is under way there.

Last week, I announced that 422 schools would win a Curious Minds award from SFI. I went into two primary schools and met small schoolchildren who were so enthused and excited as a result of the initiative. They were genuinely curious and asked me all sorts of brilliant questions that I do not believe I would ever have asked at their age. This shows the importance of the work SFI is doing in partnering with schools. I thank the teachers, principals and others who prioritised the awards. I am aware that schools are busy places and that teachers have many competing demands, but I recognise that many schools have really prioritised this. It results in a pipeline of talent and of young people who want to go on to study STEM subjects.

There are interesting questions on gender and STEM that are for another day and that may be addressed in the report. I remember being at the DCU School of Education quite a while ago and was told by staff there that when, as part of a research project, they asked the pupils of a class of mixed gender whether any of them were interested in science, way more boys' hands went up than girls' hands. It was during the Covid pandemic. When the staff asked whether any of the pupils were interested in how we could come up with vaccinations and medicines to make people safe, more girls' hands went up than boys' hands. Therefore, it is a matter of defining science and how we teach and portray it. That is an interesting area too.

An Cathaoirleach

I have two observations on that. Gender in STEM was a big issue for our witnesses, along with the importance of apprenticeships. The witnesses were regularly asked when STEM subjects should be introduced to a child. Some replied it should be in secondary school, whereas others disagreed and said it should be in primary school. The question was answered by my daughter when she was watching something science-related on YouTube. She told me she had done what was on the video in school some months earlier and that it was great fun. That is what STEM should be about at that age.

An issue that arose – it is one for the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley – is that there should be dedicated classrooms for STEM subjects. I realise there are accommodation challenges in schools but the classrooms would give every opportunity to all children, especially in bigger primary schools.

Deputy Simon Harris

As the Minister responsible for science, I believe the earlier children are exposed to science and innovation, the better. Every year at the BT Young Scientists & Technologists of the Year competition, we are blown away by the ideas of the secondary school students and even more blown away by the projects of the primary school students. The more that young people are immersed in science and understand its breadth, the more it will serve us with third level graduates in the future.

An Cathaoirleach

It also encourages females at a young age.

I thank the Minister and his officials. We have had an extremely informative and productive engagement on topical issues of national importance concerning his Department.

The meeting is adjourned. The select committee will meet in public session at 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 27 June 2023.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.40 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 4 July 2023.