Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 24 Oct 2023

Public Service Performance Report 2022: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

As the Chair is delayed, I will stand in for him until he arrives. I welcome from the Department of Education, Mr. Gavan O'Leary, assistant secretary, Mr. Tom Whelan, principal officer in the finance unit, Dr. Paul Alexander, senior statistician in the statistics unit, Ms Valerie Kirwan, principal officer with responsibility for finance in the planning and building unit, Ms Anne Murray, principal officer in the public service reform programme office, and Mr. Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha, assistant chief inspector. The officials are here to brief us on the public service progress report and the public service performance indicators for the Department of Education.

I will invite Mr. O'Leary to make a brief opening statement of five minutes which will be followed by questions from members. Each member has a six-minute slot in which to ask questions and for the witnesses to respond. The committee will publish the opening statement on its website following the meeting.

Before we begin, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Officials are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the Chair to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I now ask Mr. O'Leary to make his opening statement.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I am one of the assistant secretaries in the Department of Education. I am accompanied by some officials from the Department. They are Mr. Tom Whelan, principal officer in the finance unit; Dr. Paul Alexander, senior statistician in the statistics unit; Ms Valerie Kirwan, principal officer with responsibility for finance in the planning and building unit; Ms Anne Murray, principal officer in the public service reform programme office; and Mr. Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha, assistant chief inspector in the Department. The Department welcomes the opportunity to provide the committee with our responses to the questions raised on the 2022 public service performance report.

The Department of Education is actively working with our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform in relation to the public service performance report process. We recognise the importance of ensuring the Department’s key indicators and outputs are provided as part of the ongoing annual Estimates process.

As has been noted elsewhere, the creation of the public service performance report is part of a process which aims to continuously improve and refine the information included in the Revised Estimates and the public service performance report itself in order to inform the consideration of these matters.

The process is undertaken with an emphasis on providing measurable and quantitative performance indicators. This includes information in regard to performance budgeting. In recent years, it has also included information in relation to equality budgeting. As part of this and other processes, the Department of Education has increased the amount of published information and data that it makes available regarding the performance of the education system in Ireland. For example, the Department regularly publishes education statistical reports such as Education Indicators for Ireland. The publication of such reports supplements the key indicators that are included in the Revised Estimates Volume. The format of the Revised Estimates Volume does not allow for the inclusion of the full comprehensive set of indicators that may be available, but instead focuses on those considered most aligned with the overall level of expenditure in the Vote.

As members will be aware, there have been a number of reforms to the overall budgetary framework in recent years in order to support greater transparency and provide the basis for a whole-of-year engagement between Departments and Oireachtas committees. These changes include performance and equality budgeting; mid-year expenditure reports; the public service performance report; spending review papers; and independent scrutiny by the Parliamentary Budgetary Office, including PBO papers.

The Minister for Education and Ministers of State in the Department have attended various committee meetings to discuss expenditure matters relating to the education Vote. The Minister has assured the committee of her commitment to accountability in relation to the management of the system and the measurement and management of performance in the system.

In relation to the performance indicators, the Department is committed to reviewing the performance indicators and related metrics included in the Revised Estimates Volumes. We have noted the comments and queries raised by members in relation to the 2022 public service performance report and will take account of these in future iterations of the report. Where appropriate, the Department will include additional indicators linked to particular strategic and policy initiatives.

Part of this process will involve taking account of the size of particular areas of expenditure in the context of the overall scale of the Vote. As members will be aware, the majority of the Department’s Vote is accounted for by pay and pensions in the education sector. The metrics outlined in the Revised Estimates Volume for 2023 will be reviewed as part of the process of drafting the Revised Estimates Volume for 2024.

The Department is very aware of the importance of the work that is done in schools across the country on a daily basis. We are committed to using processes such as the public service performance report to inform our decision-making in relation to the funding of the system and progressing the policy objectives outlined by the Minister.

I assure the committee that the Department is fully committed to further developing and enhancing the performance metrics associated with the annual Estimates process. Through this, we aim to improve clarity and transparency regarding the uses to which the resources invested in the system are put. My colleagues and I look forward to answering members’ questions.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

This is the first year this report has been published since I became a member of the committee. I am interested in how the officials consider the report benefits them. I find the information very interesting when we look at it but when the officials are planning year on year, is it helpful or is gathering all this information more beneficial externally?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

Primarily we do it to inform the committee and external stakeholders but a process like this, where we gather the metrics and look at our own performance, also has internal value for the Department and ourselves in seeing how these things align, the performance of the Department and how it changes over time. It is interesting and valuable to see how things change in the performance of the system as well as basic metrics such as the number of schools, the size of the pupil population and so on.

I will ask Mr. Whelan if he wants to add to this. Wearing his finance hat, he might have another perspective.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Maybe there is a question on the use of the word "performance". I suppose the Department’s performance is not only based on numbers is what I am trying to say.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I think one of the questions forwarded on to us raised performance and those within the system, that is, pupils, teachers etc. I will ask Mr. Mac Fhlannchadha to talk about that as the inspectorate is doing additional work as part of the inspection process, with inspectors talking to the primary stakeholders and those within the system.

Ms Murray might add a little to that in terms of the Growing Up in Ireland process. That also is a useful check-in for us as a Department because part of the Growing Up in Ireland, GUI, process is to ask the participants - the children and indeed the parents and guardians - about the experience on maybe a more qualitative basis as well as the figures and the quantitative basis. If I could ask Mr. Mac Fhlannchadha to start and to outline a little about the inspection process, the surveys, and the interaction with the pupils and all of that.

Mr. Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha

The inspectorate does collect some data on the experiences of children and young people although that data might not be communicated to the system at a system level. Surveys of children and young people have been part of some inspection models since 2010. We also meet with children and young people as part of some inspection types. The information gathered from children and young people during the course of inspections and their experiences of learning and of teaching at school is considered, together with other sources of evidence informing the inspectorate's judgments on the quality of provision in the school or the quality of the different aspects of teaching and learning. It is also used to inform the reporting back. We do not include the detailed statistical data in our inspection reports although we do refer to the engagement, where necessary, with the children and young people in surveys and during focus groups, and what they have told us.

With regard to the survey data, we share the aggregated survey data with the school.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Okay.

Mr. Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha

This is for consideration by themselves and also, that aggregated data may form part of the discussion when we give feedback to the school on the quality of provision in the school. We also use certain aggregated data to inform the chief inspector's report which, up to this, was published every three or four years and from now on will be published on an annual basis. We draw on particular aspects of what we have learned about the experiences of children and use that to inform the commentary on the provision for teaching and learning in the system more widely. As an inspectorate we continue to develop our approaches for engaging with students, pupils, children and young people during the course of inspections. For example, we have published information webinars and also information pamphlets for pupils and students on what happens during an inspection. We have also developed our approach on meeting with students and young people during the course of inspections. For example, we ensure consent and assent are provided by pupils and students during it and also rather than meeting the students coldly we engage with them in terms of building their capacity and their readiness to talk with us as outsiders about their experiences of school and of teaching and learning.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

That is good, I thank Mr. Mac Fhlannchadha. Did Mr. O'Leary want to bring someone else in?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

Would Ms Murray like to comment?

Ms Anne Murray

I thank Deputy Farrell for her question. I will speak a little about the Growing Up in Ireland study, the national longitudinal study of children and young people, which the Department is very actively engaged with. The Deputy may know that there are two cohorts of children and young people in the Growing Up in Ireland study. They are currently aged 25 and aged 15 but they have been surveyed throughout their school-going experience and we have learned some very valuable insights from the Growing Up in Ireland findings. For example, the current cohort was born in 1998 and started to be surveyed at the age of nine. Throughout their school experience they were surveyed about their attitudes and engagement with school and from the findings from a survey carried out when they were at the ages of 17 and 18 we found that young people were generally very positive about their school experience and their experience with teachers. Similar findings have been found with the younger cohort, the cohort of 2008 who are currently 15 years old but were recently surveyed at the age of 13. They were asked about their experience of settling into secondary school, for example, and the findings showed that almost all of them agreed they had a positive experience of settling in. They had found new friends. Of course, from time to time some children had a less positive experience but overall the experience was very positive.

The Department engages very proactively with the Growing Up in Ireland study, contributing to the questions that are asked of the children so that we are getting the most valuable insights we can, and the findings are disseminated widely throughout the Department.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Go raibh maith agat agus ba mhaith liom fáilte mhór a chur roimh gach duine as an Roinn Oideachas. I will start with Mr. O'Leary. Obviously the Public Service Performance Report is a new process for the Department and indeed the Oireachtas. Its objective, I suppose, is to improve public service by enabling people to see performance relative to targets. Does the Department of Education have targets in specific areas that can be assessed and, if so, could Mr. O'Leary give me an example of them?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

As the Deputy stated, the objective is to improve the overall performance and also to give more information on how we perform against the targets. I might ask Mr. Whelan and then Dr. Alexander to come in, in terms of specifics around some of the targets we set and how we are doing against those. There is some trend information regarding the 2022 report and that would be something we intend to build on as we get through further editions of this and have a greater data set. Will Mr. Whelan come in on this?

Mr. Tom Whelan

The overall Vote of the Department is approximately €10 billion and, as Mr. O'Leary said, a large portion of that is down to pay and pensions. Therefore, when we are trying to do the Public Service Performance Report and link it back to the overall spend, we are trying to get the high-level figures in there. There is a lot of other information and other targets within the Department. There is a forward action plan with 46 actions and quarterly updates are provided on that in terms of how we are progressing to meet the overall targets that link in with the strategy and goals of the Department.

In terms of the big spend, in schools it is enrolment and demand driven and the number of teachers is linked to the number of enrolments. This is the case in school transport as well. A lot of it relates to demand-driven areas in the Vote so when we are setting up our targets in the Revised Estimates for public services, REV, that are feeding back into the performance report we always asterisk them to say that a lot of the time it is projections of what it will be as opposed to in some places looking for targets. Sometimes with a lot of the main drivers of the costs we are projecting what the enrolment will be in schools and that is the driver of the costs. That is why we have to work within the parameters of this performance report, and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Reform and Delivery wants a two-page summary of the key stuff. We try to link it back to what the main drivers of the costs are because it is a cost-based process in that way.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I suppose one of the public's most frequent recognition of performance by the Department of Education is when they see a new primary school or a new secondary school being built. Obviously we are aware of demographics into the future. Are there any targets in respect of how many primary schools will be built in certain areas by a certain time? Ms Kirwan looks like she wants to answer that question.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I might ask Ms Kirwan to come in on that. She is from the planning and building unit and has particular responsibilities in there, not on individual projects but she can probably answer some of the Deputy's questions around that.

Ms Valerie Kirwan

Yes. From the school planning and building perspective we have a large pipeline of school building projects. We have 1,300 currently and 300 of those are in construction. Of those 300, more than 40 of them are new school buildings. There are 72 out at tendering stage at this point in time and 27 of those are new school buildings. We are continually measuring that. On top of that we have an annual target under our national development plan, NDP, commitment of achieving between 150 to 200 school building projects per annum. That is the target we have and that we have reached. This year alone more than 180 school building projects were completed in 2022 and since 2018 there have been 900. All of the time we have been adding capacity and there has been modernisation as well to improve the education environment.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Is that something that members of the public can inspect and see quite readily by going online?

Ms Valerie Kirwan

Absolutely, we update the Department's website on a monthly basis with progress on where all of those projects are across the large-scale and additional accommodation. As they change through the stages or are completed, that is updated on the website.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

It is an important area. Politicians are useful in terms of giving information as to how the public assesses Government Departments and certainly in my own constituency, where a new secondary school is being built for Harold's Cross Educate Together, there is concern about delays in respect of that school. Nobody seems to know the target for that to be built and completed. The date seems to be shifting and similarly in respect of a Gael Choláiste. There is huge demand in the constituency - in the Dublin 2, 4 and 6 areas - for a Gael Choláiste but the public does not have any understanding as to how this can be achieved other than by lobbying. These are areas that need to be worked on, in terms of trying to indicate to the public how the Department is performing in respect of a public demand.

Ms Valerie Kirwan

I cannot go into detail on those particular schools right now because I would not have in-depth knowledge of the projects but I would be happy to revert to the Deputy on them. Delays can arise for various reasons but, as it stands, there is nothing there currently that would actually be holding back the projects. A project might be out of tender or there could be other reasons for delays at construction but I am not aware of any particular problems now. Earlier this year we had 61 paused projects, 29 of which were at the construction stage. A full 28 of those projects are now in construction. A total of 32 of those projects were paused at tendering stage but of that 32, two have gone through tendering and are in construction, while 28 are out of tendering stage and two are nearly out. I do not see delays in the school building programme as such.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Finally, as part of this public service performance report process, there is performance budgeting, equality budgeting, green budgeting, and spending reviews. I notice that in respect of the recent public service report, education did not seem to have provided well-being budgeting or green budgeting information. Is that correct?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I might ask Mr. Whelan to come in on the budgeting but I want to go back to an earlier point raised by the Deputy. We can talk a little bit more about Forbairt, the annual plan. Ms Murray will speak on Forbairt and then Mr. Whelan will talk about the various iterations and forms of budgetary information.

Ms Anne Murray

I will give the Deputy a little more information on Forbairt, which is the annual statement of priorities for the Department. The Department has undertaken action planning of goals and actions since 2016 and Forbairt is our latest go at setting out the priorities for the Department. It contains 46 actions covering the breadth of activities of the Department. It is published on the Department's website. Quarterly reviews are undertaken which are also published on the website. The most recent quarterly review was for Q2 and was published last month. We are currently undertaking the review of Q3 which will be published in due course. The review of Q4 will take place as we get to the end of the year. We are currently planning for 2024 as to what the Department's statement of priorities will be for the year. That will also be published in due course.

As I said, Forbairt contains 46 actions spanning the breadth of the activities of the Department. The Deputy mentioned well-being and there is an action on well-being in Forbairt, which is to implement the Department's well-being policy, to foster the well-being of all children and young people and to ensure that well-being is at the core of the culture and climate of all schools and centres for education. Each unit with responsibility for the different priority actions will report on progress towards those actions and that is published regularly.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Senator Eileen Flynn is next.

Senator Eileen Flynn

My first question today relates to the ethnicity identifier in the context of school performance and engagement. We still do not know how many Travellers, Muslims or people from various ethnic minority groups there are in our schools. One of my first jobs was as an education officer with the Irish Traveller Movement in 2011 and 2012. At that time, it was very difficult to get information from the Department on the performance of Traveller children in the education.

I am also interested in hearing about the Department's consultation with young people. Did somebody say that the Department does not write down what young people say or did I hear that incorrectly?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

That might have been Mr. Mac Fhlannchadha who was talking about the reporting of what the young people said so that they would not be identified. I will ask Mr. Mac Fhlannchadha to elaborate further.

Mr. Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha

We use the information that is provided by children and young people when we engage with them during inspections via surveys or during meetings to inform out judgments about the overall quality of teaching and learning but in doing so we are considering other sources of evidence such as the observation of teaching and learning, the engagement with other parties in the school such as teachers and school leaders, and so on. The data we gather in the surveys is aggregated and anonymised and then shared with the school so that it can be used-----

Senator Eileen Flynn

Okay, so it is about keeping the young people safe. I understand now and thank the witness for explaining that.

Mr. Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha

The Senator is welcome.

Senator Eileen Flynn

My main question is around the identifier and why we do not have one yet for people in minority groups.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I will ask Dr. Alexander to respond to that. He is our statistics man and will be able to talk about the constraints there.

Dr. Paul Alexander

I thank Senator Flynn for her question. The primary online database, POD, is the main source of information on students at primary level and the second level equivalent is the post-primary online database, known as the PPOD. We do collect ethnicity data. However, it is a special category of information and is opt-in only. Parents have to explicitly opt in to providing ethnicity information for their son or daughter who is attending a school when they are enrolling in the school. We collect that information and have it available. Our intention is to begin adding it in as an indicator for Roma and Traveller groups but we have to be very mindful of statistical disclosure because the numbers can be very small on occasion and also because parents can opt not to provide the information. There is an opt-out option. Parents can simply say that they do not want to provide information on their child's ethnicity and that is their right under the General Data Protection Regulation, GDPR. Our intention is to start publishing information collectively on Traveller and Roma students. We already have a Traveller- and Roma-specific report on how they are doing in various stages of education. That is on the Department's website and I would welcome Senator Flynn's comments on that.

Senator Eileen Flynn

I understand what Dr. Alexander is saying but he is not talking about an ethnic identifier. Having worked with national Traveller organisations, I know this is something they are looking for in both primary and secondary school. Obviously it is a matter of choice. It is up to parents to decide if they want to clarify their child's ethnicity but it is not very clear to the Traveller community that the option is there for them to do so. It is also not very clear to Traveller organisations. Organisations like the Irish Traveller Movement or Pavee Point have been seeking specific information on young members of the Traveller community in education but since 2012, when I began working for the Irish Traveller Movement, that information was nowhere to be found. I appreciate what Dr. Alexander has said and look forward to working with him in the future. We need to be really clear around the identifier so that we can have accurate data not just on Traveller children but on children from other ethnic minority groups. Ireland is a very multicultural country now and we need to know how many children from different ethnic backgrounds are in schools and potentially at risk in schools. I thank Dr. Alexander for that update.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh is next.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I have lot of questions so I may have to save some for the second round. I want to start by picking up where Deputy Jim O'Callaghan left off. He mentioned equality budgeting, performance budgeting and well-being budgeting and I was struck by the fact that there was no specific reference to the well-being framework. That framework was updated as recently as June of this year. I understand that as part of the summer economic statement, SES, we now report on well-being budgeting. Looking specifically at the areas of knowledge, skills and innovation, the indicators there are reading and mathematics performance and life-long learning, which would be pertinent, as well as subjective well-being or the reported subjective well-being of school age children. Are we saying that this is not yet integrated into the performance reporting of the Department? I understand that the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform has issued a direction that we should be building that into our reporting in the SES.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

First, on well-being, as Mr. Mac Fhlannchadha and Ms Murray said earlier, we put questions to children and pupils within the system in terms of their own well-being. Obviously we would take the broader view that the promotion of education contributes to their well-being.

I will ask Mr. Whelan to come in on well-being and on the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform view of the brief we were given on the initial PSPR and how that will evolve and change in light of the feedback we are getting.

Mr. Tom Whelan

As part of the template we were asked to fill in on performance reporting, we were just asked to provide the equality budgeting. I am aware of, and have sat on various working groups on, the well-being initiatives and the performance around the well-being. As yet, we have not been asked to put that into our Revised Estimates indicators, but it is an ongoing process.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Has the Department been asked to report under the well-being framework as part of that preparation for the summer economic statement?

Mr. Tom Whelan

Yes. The Department would have been asked to report on all the well-being and how we feed into the well-being. Our Department would have been involved in reporting into that, yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

However, at the moment it is keeping that separate from this performance reporting mechanism.

Mr. Tom Whelan

Yes, because we are limited to two pages by the Department. The Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform asked us to fill in the equality budgeting and then our main indicators are published in the Revised Estimates. What is published in the public service performance report is a subset of that. What we are talking about here is a report in 2022, so those indicators would have been set back in November-December 2021. The well-being process has moved on a lot since then. We set targets a year in advance and they are reported the year after, and that is why we are behind on that.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I understand that. My related question refers to the sustainable development goals, SDGs. Has the Department received instruction from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to begin reporting under that framework as well? I put the same question to the representatives from the Department of Social Protection last week at the respective committee. They said they have received instructions to report under the sustainable development goals. Have the officials present received a similar instruction?

Mr. Tom Whelan

I am not directly involved in that, but the Department has been feeding into that information on the sustainable development goals.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

One of the things that was aired last week was that we get a performance report on the one hand and then we have this separate mechanism for reporting on the well-being framework and a separate mechanism to report on the sustainable development goals. As a committee member trying to analyse performance reporting, it would make eminent sense if one process spoke more coherently to the other. That is a comment more than a question, but the officials may wish to come back on it.

I have a specific question on school transport issues. Our office, like the office of any Oireachtas Member, has been inundated with correspondence on this. It happened in previous years as well. One of the huge frustrations we experience is we have these parallel but overlapping services. It might be that the Ukrainian kids are getting dropped to school on a school bus that has ten empty places. It might that there is a bus coming from the direct provision centre. It might be that there is a bus coming to service the need of a child with a disability. Then we have the regular school transport bus. Again, it feels like we have parallel processes that are not talking to each other. There was a bus where a child with a disability was travelling with siblings, but the first cousins next door could not get on the bus and the bus was travelling empty up the road. It is incredibly frustrating for a public representative. It is incredibly frustrating to parents who see a bus travelling around the countryside with empty seats and their children are travelling to that school. Have we any plans to streamline this process so we are actually thinking about filling buses and providing the maximum benefit to the children who are attending our schools?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

We do not have anybody here who works in the specific area of school transport, but if there are specific cases we are happy to convey them back and ask the colleagues to follow up with members via the secretariat.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It is one of the things the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform requests from the Department of Education as indicators, is it not?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I am sorry, but I did not catch that.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform asks Departments for metric that need to be clear and simple, without sector-specific jargon and initialisms. I note school transport is listed on that as some of the key outputs from the public service performance report. There is No. 4, for example, and No. 6 at post-primary. Thus, it appears within the report, does it not?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

They are in terms of the global numbers, but I was saying we could follow up for members if there is a specific case. The Minister has stated publicly there is a school transport review mandated under the programme for Government and she is hoping to have that finalised fairly shortly.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The programme for Government was written in 2020. I remember being in the room for it. Now we are in 2023.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

We are aware of that, but as I said that is work that has been ongoing. The Minister has spoken publicly about the school transport review and obviously the kind of issues the Deputy is raising will be taken into account as part of that.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I thank Deputy Ó Cathasaigh. I will ask my questions now. It is quite striking that the reporting is on things the way they are, as opposed to reporting against needs and whether the needs are being met. An example is a school where a third of the pupils are sitting out for religion tuition in the class and that is an area where the Department has no intention of building another multidenominational school because that is based on other factors and not the needs of the local community and the need to have more diverse ethoses. Do the officials believe they should be reporting on different indicators, with those being what we need from our schools and to what extent we are meeting those needs? I note one of the indicators is around the number of multidenominational, interdenominational and nondenominational schools, but again it is the number that there are and it is against the programme for Government commitment to increase that to 400. Many parents have raised with me that the fact they are not asked by schools what ethos they want their children to be taught through. CSO data look at what religion people are as opposed to what ethos they want for their family, so there is a big gaping hole there. At the very least, people should be asked that question when their child is going to school. It would give us a much better picture of what the needs are.

In addition, the examination of school transport was begun in 2021 and it is now the end of 2023, so I imagine we will not get sight of that until 2024. Is it reasonable to expect a review to take three years when we all kind of know what the problems are? One of the main problems is I do not believe climate considerations have been factored in at all with much of the work of the Department around transport. We in the Green Party had hoped that transport for education would be moved to the Department of Transport, which would have a different understanding of how to link all the various aspects of transport together, but right now we are in a situation where pupils must live kilometres away from their school to be entitled to school transport, even though we know the congestion is in urban centres. That is where the piece needs to be fixed to ensure children are not unnecessarily stuck in cars. That is one of the frustrations we all have around school transport. It just does not seem to be getting better.

Do the officials agree with some of the difficulties I see in the indicators that have been selected? Do they have suggestions for how they might improve? Do not get me wrong, it is a step in the right direction to have any kind of transparency about how the budget is spent, but do the officials have suggestions for next year on how it could be improved, bearing in mind we have an obligation to spend public money in the interests of meeting the needs of people living in our country?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I thank the Acting Chair. As I said in my opening remarks, we are open to taking on board the feedback we get. Certainly we hear what she is saying. We regard this as an evolving process where there will be other indicators brought to bear and into future publications.

Mr. Whelan has referred to the brief we got and some of the constraints there were in how we presented the data we have. We are not in any way closed to that and we are open to taking on board the feedback we have received today and in writing in what we present.

On the school transport review, as I said, I hear what the Deputy is saying. From the point of view of an official in the Department, this is the process that has been under way and my understanding is that the Departments of Transport and the Environment, Climate and Communications have been represented on the steering group as part of the school transport review. There is an effort to try to take the broader view across the various policy agendas and to see where school transport has a role to play, in urban, suburban and more rural areas, in terms of its operation.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

Mr. O'Leary is speaking about climate. I brought this up at the previous meeting or maybe the one before that. Funding was provided for solar panels a year ago but the Department has not installed even one solar panel. There is a specific problem with the lack of urgency around climate action, and transport is one of those areas. It should not take three years when we have an urgent problem. I accept that there is a representative but that is not the same as the entire Department having a focus on climate, which it should. It should not be a matter of one person being brought into a committee to represent the climate issue. Everybody, in every Department, needs to take this issue seriously.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

It is not just in transport that the Department has a climate agenda. I ask Ms Kirwan to speak about the school building programme, where there are targets and work is under way, not just on installing solar panels, an issue on which one of my colleagues addressed the committee relatively recently, but on the overall energy performance of schools.

Ms Valerie Kirwan

On climate, this year the Department published a roadmap for the delivery of the climate agenda and achieving its 2030 and 2050 targets. The Department will be reporting on that as part of the public sector sectoral carbon budgets. It is all embedded in the national development plan, NDP, allocations and funding going forward. I know there is a process for establishing the NDP funding for 2026 to 2028 and that, starting in November, there will be a similar process for 2024 and 2025 in relation to windfall receipts. We will deal with our capital pressures and climate at that point in time.

On the energy profile, we have an expanded pathfinder programme that is exploring options. We have also done the energy profile for about 600 schools and we hope to have the energy profile exercise completed during 2024 and 2025. That will give us a good view of the condition of the schools. If we then had €50 million or €100 million, we would know how best to achieve the targets. In some cases, we might pick the low-hanging fruit to do so. In addition, we are strong on the point that, going forward, we will have some element of climate action in our summer works.

A lot of work has been done this year to get solar panels up and running. I take the point that they are not in the system yet. A lot of collaboration has been done between the Department and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and we are at the stage where the systems are practically built, the processes are practically in place and the governance is there. Hopefully, we will be ready to go soon.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Pauline O'Reilly)

I hope we will see that roll-out soon.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I will pick up on that last point. I raised the point at a previous meeting that I am not sure the Department is keying into the idea of what the industry would call scope 3 emissions, which are the emissions external to the school. We are focused on solar panels and the energy efficiency of the build stock, and that is entirely appropriate, but we are not looking, particularly in new school builds, at the potential of that scale of investment within a community to be the linchpin of an active travel network. I have seen too many instances of new school builds that are predominantly car dependent in terms of access to the school. That is more of a comment than a question.

I want to take a closer look at the school books scheme. Budget 2023 provided more than €50 million for the free school books scheme at primary level. That is very welcome and it was hugely significant in all sorts of ways, particularly as a cost-of-living measure. I have a nagging concern, however. I worry about the school books mediating the curriculum, for example. When there is a reliance on a school book to dictate the terms of the curriculum, the independence of the teacher and his or her responsibility to mediate the curriculum are undermined. We can say that responsibility still rests with the teacher, and it does, but as a former teacher, I can remember the pressure of sending home workbooks that did not have chapter 6 done, for example. The question is then asked why chapter 6 was not done. It could be that the teacher decided not to cover the topic in question or wanted to do something in a different way. That creates a pressure.

What performance metrics are we applying to this spend? Are we just encouraging schools to go out and buy books that they do not necessarily need? Workbooks are something I am particularly worried about in that kind of scenario, as opposed to textbooks. There is also a concern around the concentration of the benefit of this scheme, either to larger suppliers or the publishers. I am particularly worried about that in the context of moving to secondary school. We must consider this spend and its ability to contribute to a local economy in the round. Otherwise we will have, as we are already having, smaller school book suppliers getting squeezed out of the market, particularly as larger schools look for efficiency in the administration of the free school book scheme. There have already been overtures from book publishers to supply directly to schools and that exacerbates the issues I was talking about of textbooks that are not needed and of the impact of the textbook in mediating the curriculum.

There is a significant spend here and it is one that is welcome in the round. It has been strongly welcomed by parents in particular and I am one of that cohort. I had three sons going to school this year and I did not need to sort them out for books, which was welcome in our household. Are we keeping an eye on the spend to make sure we are taking those other factors into account?

Deputy Paul Kehoe took the Chair.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I ask Mr. Mac Fhlannchadha to address the point the Deputy raised about teacher autonomy and the role of the teacher vis-à-vis using the textbook and other school resources in the classroom.

Mr. Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha

The primary guide for teachers is the school curriculum or the specifications that have been provided. The intention is always that textbooks would be one of a number of resources that can be utilised to support teaching and learning in the classrooms. Effective teaching involves the use of a wide range of resources, as appropriate, to deliver whatever the objective is for particular lessons or for whatever content-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Does Mr. Mac Fhlannchadha accept that teachers often feel a pressure from the textbook?

Mr. Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha

They may do so but teachers have professional autonomy as well. They are supported within the system and they are encouraged, as professionals, to exert their autonomy in making decisions. The curriculum is decided but they are autonomous in deciding how the curriculum can be delivered in a manner that best meets the needs of the children in their classrooms. As the Deputy is aware, the needs of the children will vary in accordance with the profile of the children and the context.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Are we taking into consideration that the benefit of this measure is concentrated on large suppliers and publishers in particular?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I will address that point.

Our colleagues involved in the work on the roll-out of the schoolbooks scheme have met representatives of the publishing industry and the suppliers, both large and small, on that. The first year of the roll-out was 2023 and it was announced in 2022.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Are they hearing the same things? I am hearing that the smaller suppliers are getting squeezed out by the bigger suppliers even in terms of the volume of books they have to store and arrange for the schools but particularly because of how the payment scheme works; they have to take on a large debt to receive it back from the Department. The parents used to come in and buy on a more piecemeal basis. There was revenue coming in through the door on a more constant basis whereas now many of the smaller suppliers do not find themselves in the position to spend the money upfront to receive it back from the Department or they find the administrative burden such that they are squeezed out of the market. Perhaps that is just a byproduct of increased efficiency, but are we at least thinking of it? That is the question I am putting forward.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I was going to say that an evaluation of the implementation of the scheme will be undertaken. That will be done in conjunction with our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. It will inform the future implementation and also look at things such as the cost and efficiency of the scheme and take account of the kind of points the Deputy is raising as well. It will evaluate how the roll-out of the schoolbooks has worked at primary level in practice and take account of the kind of issues that the Deputy raises and the various stakeholders involved in the supply of books and other classroom resources.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

When are we likely to see the outcome of that evaluation?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I do not know that we have a date for it. The work is ongoing but I do not have a date for its completion.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I am looking for a ballpark date. Are we talking about this year or next?

Mr. Tom Whelan

The review is ongoing. The circular and the funding for the next school year usually is planned to go out in February and March, so we are looking to have that completed before the next circular for-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The evaluation will be completed before February or March next year.

Mr. Tom Whelan

Yes. That will inform the circular and the funding.

An Cathaoirleach

I wish to come in before we move on to Senator Dolan. My apologies as I was at another event this morning. On the schoolbooks scheme and recyclable schoolbooks, there are probably fewer in primary school, but are there textbooks that can be recycled back into the school system when students are finished with them? is that envisaged or has it been thought about? Even though I absolutely welcome the free books scheme, I feel there is a scenario where we have to look after textbooks that can be reused instead of being dumped. Has that been taken into consideration by the Department?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

Yes, that is part of the scheme. The school owns the books, so it would get them returned and they would be available for reuse. Schools have experience doing that through book rental schemes and, therefore, it is not new work to them in that sense. That is part of the operation of the scheme. The review we referred to will look at that in practice.

An Cathaoirleach

That will be part of the review being carried out. To echo the words of Deputy Ó Cathasaigh, I am hearing the very same thing from the smaller book suppliers as well. Parents would have come in during the summer months but now the smaller suppliers are being totally squeezed out. The bigger book companies are now taking the large majority of the market because of what is happening. Perhaps in some DEIS school there would have been free books either way but it is definitely a big issue in other primary schools - I have heard it.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I welcome the departmental officials and I thank them for their statements.. They are going through the performance report and they have highlighted quite a lot of different areas. I wish to go through a few issues with them.

The Department is looking at school buildings and school places according to the national development plan. I have heard some of our representatives here talk about the development, the new buildings and so on. I am based in Ballinasloe and I represent Roscommon-Galway, and there is a real challenge there regarding new school builds. My question is related to that. Potentially, it is for Ms Kirwan from the school planning and building section. I ask about a particular school planning area, namely, primary schools. What is the average number of schools within a school planning area? For example, in Ballinasloe it has been indicated there are 17. I have made a number of requests, not to the Department directly but just in general to the Oireachtas liaison, to find out which schools are in that school planning area but I still have not received a response. How is this identified? The geographical information service is being used and data from census 2022 is probably feeding into the GIS as well. There are primary school capacity issues for Ballinasloe townland area. I have only recently invited the Minister and I would love to invite the witnesses to Ballinasloe as well. There are a number of excellent things happening but there are real challenges in that area in that space. The school planning report is great because it indicates the amount of work that is done. In 2022 there were 108 builds, which is wonderful. I am curious about that figure. What are new builds and what is additional accommodation? The Department has been excellent in providing additional accommodation classrooms. How does the Department connect between the school planning area for Ms Kirwan and who manages transport? I apologise as I do not know. Who manages the transport section? When Ms Kirwan says there is a capacity issue, there are no primary school places and there is no space for additional accommodation, which is the case for a number of schools, how do we then say that we need buses put in place? It has to be outside of the strict remit of school transport at the moment. We will put buses in place to ferry children from the town out to perhaps a 5 km or 10 km radius to make sure that capacity is there. How is that managed?

Regarding school transport, I believe the extra funds are at more than €90 million in the budget this year but I am open to correction. How will those funds be used to provide additional transport? What is the planning around that? How will Bus Éireann be supported and engaged with? What are the Department’s links with Bus Éireann on this? I deal particularly with the Bus Éireann transport section in Galway. It can be difficult because we have not had buses, we do not have infrastructure and there is a challenge around drivers. What is the Department’s plan to improve that? It is still a challenge. It is a challenge for many regional areas and I represent regional areas.

On the climate action fund, solar panels were mentioned. I spoke with the Minster, Deputy Eamon Ryan, who visited Roscommon County Council only last week. He indicated that this fund would open shortly. This fund was supposed to open last year. When is “shortly”? When will that happen? He indicated it would be through the Department of Education. Subsequent to that, what is the planning process? The Department is giving project managers to schools to have them manage projects. How will the Department help them manage applying for solar panels? Will there be a recommendation of X solar panels for an X-size roof? Will it be with the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI? Will the Department provide a project manager? Will there be a one-stop shop for each county area for them to apply or will it be up to a principal to do this work? Who will do the work of identifying how, getting it implemented and getting people in place and everything to do that? I am curious.

I will leave it at those three questions. If I have time to come back in, I would appreciate it. I thank the witnesses again for their attention to these matters.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I might ask Ms Kirwan to respond but before she comes in, I refer to the specifics of Ballinasloe. I am not sure the team here-----

Senator Aisling Dolan

I understand. I take that on board and hopefully the departmental officials can come back to me.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

We can pass on the Senator’s comments to our colleagues in the planning and building unit who deal with the specifics of that area. More generally, Ms Kirwan can talk a little bit about the processes behind some of what the Senator raised in how the additional accommodation or planning goes ahead.

Senator Aisling Dolan

School buildings and school places are the two in the national development plan.

Ms Valerie Kirwan

I thank the Senator for her questions. I know Ballinasloe. It is not too far away from me; I am from Birr.

On the school planning areas and how many schools are in each planning area at primary level and post-primary level, it varies.

The schools are grouped by small areas. There are 4,000 schools across the country and 314 school planning areas. At a previous meeting of this committee, at which Mr. Hubert Loftus was present on behalf of the Department, questions were asked about getting access to information relating to school planning areas. Work is ongoing at the moment to make that information available.

On the question of how we plan strategically, in regard to enrolments, we take into consideration census numbers, class sizes and projects that are up and coming in the location. We also look at housing developments in the area, which is a really important part of it. At this time, we are working through all the projects coming through the pipeline. We are looking at the gross numbers; not just the gross population number for a town but also, if it is a large town, looking at whether development is happening in, say, the east or the west of the town. We are making sure we are targeting where the school build projects need to be located.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I thank Ms Kirwan. She may know the area I am referring to quite well. We potentially have another 200 homes coming onstream before next September, which are not included in the figures from the census or the GIS. How is the Department linking in with local authorities in this regard? I have talked to all the school principals and I know the schools are full in the town area. There is a real concern there. In general, how does the Department link in with the county councils, the regional education and language teams and with colleagues to say, for example, that there is a major issue with school transport and to discuss how a plan can be worked out to address it? I am concerned right now to ensure a plan is worked out for next September. That is why I am really focusing on it in my questions. I want to understand how I can best advance the matter and how we can work together to have a plan in place for September.

Ms Valerie Kirwan

In regard to residential developments, our forward planning section gets information directly from the local authorities on planning and developments.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Does that information come from the planning offices of the local authorities?

Ms Valerie Kirwan

I can get back to the Senator on that. It definitely is one of the assessment criteria the section considers in looking at the capacity demands in an area.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Do the county councils take it on themselves to contact the Department to notify it of additional developments?

Ms Valerie Kirwan

No, we are proactive in seeking information on the number of planning applications and developments.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Does the Department have somebody who contacts the county council on a regular basis?

Ms Valerie Kirwan

Absolutely. I will have to get back to the Senator on the exact process but I know there is a structured approach to obtaining the information. It is not done on an ad hoc basis.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Will Ms Kirwan provide a response to the committee on exactly how that engagement happens and how regularly it takes place?

Ms Valerie Kirwan

Absolutely.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I would also like to know who the person is with responsibility for that in Galway and Roscommon.

Ms Valerie Kirwan

I already mentioned the different parts involved in capacity planning. After that, there is engagement with the school authorities on utilising full capacity. Then it is a question of identifying where additional capacity is needed.

Senator Aisling Dolan

At what point does the Department talk to the school transport section when there is no additional accommodation and there is a need to have access to, say, a two-teacher school in a rural area?

Ms Valerie Kirwan

Only yesterday, there was a meeting between the school transport section and the planning and building unit. There is always engagement between them but we are looking to have a more structured engagement on these issues.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Is there a regular meeting between the school planning and school transport sections on all relevant issues across the country?

Ms Valerie Kirwan

We are looking to put some structure in place. At the moment, it is probably more of an ad hoc engagement. We want to put a structure on that.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I would be delighted to support Ms Kirwan in working towards a more structured engagement. Are any of the officials responsible for the school transport section?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

We were limited in our representation to six officials and, unfortunately, there is nobody here from the school transport section. If there are specific queries in that area, we are happy to pass them to our colleagues.

Senator Aisling Dolan

My main question is when the school transport review will be published. I am sure colleagues, including the Cathaoirleach, have asked the same. Is there any idea as to when it will be available? Second, structured engagement needs to happen in crisis areas where there potentially are challenges around school capacity in September. There must be structured engagement and a highlighting of key areas across the country where there are challenges. I would really appreciate a commitment from the witnesses that this will be considered.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

We certainly will pass that message on to our colleagues. As Ms Kirwan outlined, work is ongoing in that direction.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I thank Mr. O'Leary. I have one other point to raise with Ms Kirwan. I would love to invite her to see the really positive things that are happening in Ballinasloe. Our town is growing, with nearly 1,000 children in primary school and another 1,000 at post-primary level. Both of the secondary schools are 100 years old. Garbally College, the boys' school, and Ardscoil Mhuire, the girls' school, which I attended, have submitted an amalgamation request to the Department. From what I understand, there has been a very positive response locally to the proposal, with a lot of buy-in, public engagement and consultation with all stakeholders. The next step will be working out all that is required to ensure the process of amalgamation is successful. Once the initial stage has reached a conclusion, it would be wonderful if there was an opportunity to meet with the school planning section to identify how best to proceed. The planned date for the amalgamation, I understand, is 2025. The two principals are very proactive in working to ensuring every necessary plan is put in place. Will the officials outline the normal process for amalgamations? Is there an opportunity within it for the schools to engage with the school planning section on what is required? The two secondary schools in Ballinasloe have 1,000 students between them. Ardscoil Mhuire's buildings are approximately 15 years old, which to me is new, but Garbally College is an older building with a lot of challenges in terms of maintenance.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

Before asking Ms Kirwan to respond, I assure the Senator that colleagues in the planning and building unit in Tullamore have dealt with the amalgamation of schools previously. There are processes in place. The physical structures are a part of it but not all of it. There is a lot of work around bringing together the school communities. As she indicated, the two school communities in Ballinasloe have a long history. There can sometimes be challenges in bringing an amalgamation successfully to a conclusion. However, it has been done in lots of instances around the country. Ms Kirwan might like to come in at this point.

Senator Aisling Dolan

All the questions are going to Ms Kirwan.

Ms Valerie Kirwan

That is no problem. We will get back to the Senator on the amalgamation process.

Senator Aisling Dolan

After a wait of 27 years, Scoil an Chroí Naofa in Ballinasloe is getting a new building. I am always to be heard talking about this. After 27 years, planning permission is approved and the project will happen in three years. The school's pupil numbers are only going to increase, on top of the increase there has been. The amalgamation of the two secondary schools will cater for 1,000 students and will happen in 2025.

On school transport, is there any indication of when the review will be published?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I do not have a specific date. The Minister has spoken about this in the Houses and indicated she is keen to have the review finalised. However, I do not have a date at this time.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Ideally, it will happen before next year.

An Cathaoirleach

Will the witnesses come back to the secretariat with more information on that? The review has been raised a number of times.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

We certainly will come back with an update on it. I am not sure we can commit to a specific date. It will be the Minister who decides on the date.

An Cathaoirleach

Will Mr. O'Leary tell the Secretary General the committee is seeking an update on the status of the review and its expected publication date?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

Certainly.

Senator Aisling Dolan

What planning has been put in place to manage the installation of solar panels in schools when funding is announced under the climate action fund, which is expected to happen shortly? Is that within the remit of any of the officials?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

Again, it is a matter for the planning and building unit

Senator Aisling Dolan

Ms Kirwan seems to be doing everything. I hope she has an excellent team.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I understand it is not her specific responsibility but I know she has been involved.

Senator Aisling Dolan

How is it going to work practically? I deal with principals day in, day out who are at their wits' end trying to manage getting either emergency accommodation or repairs, dealing with summer schools and getting additional people in. On a project management level, how can this be streamlined? What are the Department's plans?

Ms Valerie Kirwan

I am conscious that this was announced some while ago. It is a collaboration between the Departments of Education and Environment, Climate and Communications. It is, as the Senator said, from the climate action fund. There has been a rigorous process with regard to due diligence and governance. We have been building the systems for it and developing the technical work, which is also progressing well. I will say that it is imminent.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Is that quicker than shortly or is shortly better than imminent?

Ms Valerie Kirwan

I will get out the thesaurus and see.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Imminent sounds positive.

Ms Valerie Kirwan

Yes. It is very near being ready. The work we have done across the Department is to make it as simplified as possible for schools.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Is that for principals? We need to indicate the person who will do the work here.

Ms Valerie Kirwan

For principals, absolutely. We are developing a system between the school and the Department that is very interactive. When it is launched, it should be very straightforward.

Senator Aisling Dolan

On the implementation of that and getting someone in, will the Department have recommended contractors to do this within each county?

Ms Valerie Kirwan

Yes, absolutely. I am not sure about what framework is there regarding contractors but we will have the SEAI's assistance also in this. The contractors will have to be registered with the SEAI. There is a process with regard to that but it is straightforward, and it is the 6 kW of solar panels.

Senator Aisling Dolan

That would be really wonderful. It will bring down costs, particularly the cost of heating and everything else for schools. It is much-needed but the implementation process is a concern. On my last question-----

An Cathaoirleach

Very briefly, Senator.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I will be very brief, and Ms Kirwan might reply to us again separately. It is on counselling. It was mentioned in the report that there are no results because it started in 2023. At the moment, there is a pilot for seven counties around counselling in primary schools. What is the plan to expand that pilot? When is that going to happen? I do not know if the Department has time to respond to that but that is my question. The Department might come back to us separately on the State Examinations Commission and measures being put in place to support it with the new subjects and the review of the new subjects. I do not know if the witnesses can briefly say anything around the expansion of the pilot on counselling, and then come back to us about measures being put in place to support the commission?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

We can come back to the Senator with a fuller briefing note. I am conscious of-----

An Cathaoirleach

On those issues?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

We will take note of all the issues but we will include those and also the specifics of-----

An Cathaoirleach

Does anyone have a reply on the counselling issues before-----

Senator Aisling Dolan

The expansion of counselling.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

Mr. Whelan can talk to that.

Mr. Tom Whelan

We got funding last year for counselling and for the pilot. We have also secured funding for the continuation of that pilot for the next school year as well.

Senator Aisling Dolan

For the seven counties?

Mr. Tom Whelan

For the same areas, yes. There will be an evaluation of those pilots in strands 1 and 2 in different regions and counties. The pilot is ongoing. It has only started for the 2023 and 2024 school years, so the first year of it has even been completed. There will be an evaluation of that. We will be rolling it out again, and we have funding secured to go beyond that. As part of that-----

Senator Aisling Dolan

Is that just within those seven counties?

Mr. Tom Whelan

That is it, yes.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Is there no funding to expand?

An Cathaoirleach

Is it the same schools or different schools?

Mr. Tom Whelan

My understanding is that the pilot is to continue for 2023 and 2024 school years for those schools. On the extra funding, a final decision has not been made on that. We have an envelope to go forward again. Before we goes to the next step, we has to evaluate. With any pilot scheme, we want to make sure that the next step is right. We do the evaluation first, make the decision and then go forward to the next step.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I thank Mr. Whelan.

An Cathaoirleach

For outstanding issues, witnesses can reply to the clerk to the committee with a full briefing note. I thank the officials for coming here today, and we will now suspend ahead of the second session.

Sitting suspended at 12.24 p.m. and resumed at 12.32 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

If witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the Chair to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. I call Dr. Lillis to make her opening statement. She has five minutes.

Dr. Deirdre Lillis

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the invitation to meet with the committee today to discuss the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science’s public service performance review, PSPR, indicators. This is a particularly timely session as the Department is nearing completion of a review of our performance and equality indicators. That review acknowledges the evolution and significant advances in the Department’s agenda and will ensure we provide a clear focus on our performance rather than just on our activity. The evidence for policy unit in the Department is undertaking this review, during which it has been very cognisant of the helpful work undertaken by members' colleagues in the Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO.

In reviewing our PSPR indicators, we are focusing on the link between funding and outcomes. This is a focus for the Department as we are working to improve the evidence available for policymaking in a number of ways. These include connecting policymakers with researchers in our universities, implementing new science advice structures and appointing a Government science adviser, investing in solving national grand challenges in climate, digital and other key areas and enhancing the impact of public investment in research and innovation so that the most people can benefit. We are working to ensure we can provide the best possible information so that Ireland can make the best policy decisions.

The review of our PSPR that is under way will also address our indicators in respect of equality budgeting. This involves providing greater information on the likely impact of budgetary measures across a range of areas including income, health and education, as well as information on how outcomes differ across gender, age, ethnicity and so on. The Department is very much focused on ensuring that further and higher education is accessible and equitable. As such, we are hopeful that the adoption of an equality budgeting framework will be of assistance in anticipating potential impacts in the budgetary process and that it will put equality outcomes to the fore in our reporting. This initiative is in line with the Department’s approach to gender, where the PBO has previously noted that our indicators are well developed, notwithstanding the need for improvements in respect of several other factors such as socioeconomic status, disability and ethnicity. The review process I am referring to will also act as the vehicle for these areas to be addressed.

The public service performance report we are discussing today includes detailed metrics on the Department’s activity in 2022. Across outputs and impacts and each of the high-level goals, we have performed strongly, exceeding or meeting the targets for the number of people enrolled in apprenticeships, full-time higher education students, undergraduates and postgraduates along with a range of other targets.

The Department marked the third year since its establishment this summer. In that time, the Government has overseen a significant reduction in the cost of third level education while also taking the necessary steps to bring about a sustainable funding landscape for the tertiary sector. With respect to the sector I am most familiar with, that of research, science and innovation, we are implementing the objectives of Impact 2030: Ireland’s Research and Innovation Strategy. We have established the Civil Service research network, which will connect policymakers with researchers in the university sector. In addition, we are establishing new science advice structures and improving our engagement with international organisations.

The Department is also finalising draft legislation for consideration by the Oireachtas that would see the establishment of a new research agency, amalgamating Science Foundation Ireland and the Irish Research Council. For the first time, this new agency will have an explicit function to enhance evidence for policy from our investment in research.

I understand the committee has an interest in a number of issues across the Department’s work, ranging from apprenticeships and green skills to supports for students to name but a few. I am sure the committee will want to discuss these and other matters in more depth. My colleagues and I are happy to assist the committee in its deliberations to the greatest extent possible.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as teacht os comhair an choiste. As I said earlier when the Department of Education's representatives were here, this is my first time being on this committee when this report has come out. I have been on the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach and I find these reports quite interesting and helpful. It is quite good. On page 37 of the report, there is a breakdown of various things. One of the things I have noticed has regard to apprenticeship targets and output. This is a new enough report. Would it be possible to break the apprenticeship target down into targets for craft apprenticeships and consortia apprenticeships next year? Is that something that could be included next year? It would be quite helpful for us to see because we are seeing new types of apprenticeships coming onstream. Obviously, when we are looking at tackling the housing crisis, we really need to look at those apprenticeships that can deliver in that regard.

Ms Sarah Miley

Absolutely. We get information on registrations per programme so we can look at including more of a breakdown. That is no problem.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I know the target is for the number of persons enrolled in apprenticeships and that the report tells us the number that has been delivered. However, I am worried that we may not be meeting the targets for those types of apprenticeships that will assist in solving the housing crisis. I hope the witnesses will correct me if I am wrong on that. On the targets for these groups, am I correct that, in 2016, a target of 9,000 new registrations a year was set?

Ms Sarah Miley

The current target we are working towards is 10,000 per year.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I am sorry; I asked about 2016.

Ms Sarah Miley

I can double-check the target for 2016 but we are working towards this target, which is based on what we are projected to need to meet the Housing for All targets. Those projections are contained in a report we released last year. We are working towards those projections through the current target of 10,000 per annum.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I just ask so that we can use this information regarding targets and delivery. Can the Department confirm whether the targets were reached in 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019?

Ms Sarah Miley

I can send the Deputy a breakdown of the targets compared with registrations in those years.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

The actual delivery, in terms of the-----

Ms Sarah Miley

Yes, from 2016 to-----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

To 2019. From 2020, it was a registration of 10,000, was it not?

Ms Sarah Miley

It was.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Did we fail to hit those targets in 2020, 2021 or 2022?

Ms Sarah Miley

The pandemic did impact-----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

We did not-----

Ms Sarah Miley

Absolutely, yes.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Obviously, 2023 is not yet finished, but are we on track to hit the target of 10,000?

Ms Sarah Miley

We are ahead. We are approximately 6% ahead of where we were at this time last year. We are on track to meet the target.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

To meet the target of 10,000.

Ms Sarah Miley

This year, yes. Sorry, to meet this year's target for the craft apprentices. Are we talking about-----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Okay. How much is that?

Ms Sarah Miley

-----the actual 10,000 target?

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

No, sorry. I am asking about the craft apprenticeships.

Ms Sarah Miley

Yes. We are on target for the craft apprenticeships.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

What is the target for new registrations in 2024?

Ms Sarah Miley

We are working towards the 10,000. At the moment, we are looking at the projections for the registrations and targets based on the higher than anticipated number of registrations across the apprenticeship suite of programmes. We are revising the projections at the moment.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

That will be interesting to see. If we can get further detail on it, that would be helpful. I have concerns regarding the backlog. I asked the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, in the Dáil last week about the current backlog in those awaiting training. He stated that at phase 2 there were 7,096 apprentices waiting, of whom 5,194 were waiting longer than six months. I understand Covid had an impact - we are all aware it did - but it is a concern. Could waiting times for craft apprenticeships for off-the-job training be looked at? That is an important metric in the context of the delivery of housing. Could that be included in this report?

Ms Sarah Miley

We are certainly looking at all the data we capture in respect of the backlogs, which, as the Deputy stated, are those waiting more than six months. We are currently looking at how we capture all the information related to that and, more important, how we are using it to tackle the backlog.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

That is good. I am asking these questions because I was finding it difficult to get the breakdown through submitting parliamentary questions. It made it more difficult to get all the information. I realise this is a one-page summary and obviously the Department is considering far more than that but, given there is a housing crisis, it would be worth looking at the backlog and the different types of apprenticeships that have a backlog. It is important that people be made aware of what the backlog is, especially while we are trying to deal with a housing crisis. Obviously, it also impacts on the lives of people who are trying to continue with their apprenticeship, finish it and get into full-time employment.

I will move on to the issue of PhD targets, including those funded by SFI. There has been a decrease in that regard and, in addition, the number of postdoctoral students funded did not hit the target there. I acknowledge that work has been done in terms of a stipend for PhD students but I know from speaking to people doing PhDs and so on that much of the difficulty in the area relates to housing. Does any conditionality apply to funding provided by the Department to universities to advance student accommodation projects? I had an interesting discussion in respect of graduate-entry medicine during oral questions last week, for example. The funding for that course of study has increased, which is welcome, but the cost for students is increasing, too. How does that work in terms of conditionality when there is funding from the Department directly to universities? What kind of conditionality can be put on such funding, especially in the context of housing and the accommodation crisis?

Mr. Paddy Howard

On the specific issue of student accommodation, neither I nor any of my colleagues present are expert on that aspect. I do not doubt there is-----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

That is okay. That is fair.

Mr. Paddy Howard

On the specific point in respect of PhD numbers, it is worth noting that indicator measures new PhD enrolments on foot of new calls. There was a timing issue in respect of that year. Some calls went out later than we expected. We expect the number to recover in the round and in future years.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

That is fair. I ask Mr. Howard to explain it further. What was the cut-off? When would they-----

Mr. Paddy Howard

In particular, there were calls for each of the big SFI research centres. We had a plan to put them out in 2022 but they went out in 2023. That is the issue in that regard. In the round, the number of PhDs supported is approximately 2,000. That figure is still there in the background.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I ask Mr. Howard to touch on the issue of conditionality, which is of interest to me. I am still learning in this brief. How does it work in terms of funding in general? What kind of conditionality can there be? What bacanna or stops are there in the context of conditionality? It would be interesting for those of us who are not-----

Mr. Paddy Howard

To clarify, conditionality in respect of what-----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

It could be in general. It could be any kind of funding, depending on the background. I referred to the example of graduate-entry medicine, the funding for which is increasing-----

Mr. Paddy Howard

Yes.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

-----every year, which is welcome. The problem is that the fees for those who are trying to study graduate-entry medicine are increasing as well. Is it possible to put conditionalities in place? How does it work? Obviously, the institutions are independent. I get that. I am trying to figure out what kind of conditionality can be put on funding. Is it impossible for that to be done? How does it work?

Mr. Paddy Howard

I understand. We can give some illumination on that, although it is not my area of expertise. There is a block grant and that has to be done in a manner that is consistent with the independence of the institutions. In my division, however, we have oversight of our competitive research funding agencies. The funding they give out is by competition. Typically, they structure a competitive call and that is where the conditionality is specified. They will say it is a research call for a certain purpose and specify the features they are seeking in the context of that call. There are different structures. For research centres, it may be a big structured investment over a long period, while for some of the Irish Research Council, IRC, work, it might be more individual awards and that kind of good stuff. The conditionality will then apply to what the research is meant to deliver. Does that paint a picture for the Deputy?

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I get that, yes.

Mr. Paddy Howard

In those competitive calls, that is the area we can influence. As it is a competitive process, we are able to specify the features we are seeking. A competitive process will then sort out all those issues in respect of independence. There is no obligation on a college to apply for a particular call. If it applies to go into a call, it is consenting within that to the conditionality.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Within that framework, yes. Do any of the other witnesses wish to come in on that point?

Dr. Deirdre Lillis

As part of the process outlined by Mr. Howard, the peer review panels would need to satisfy themselves regarding the research environment in the universities. If, for example, they are going to hire ten postdoctoral researchers and recruit 15 PhD students, those students would have to be well looked after. We have never gone as far as telling an institution it must provide accommodation as part of that. They are autonomous institutions and are probably balancing the need of first-year undergraduates with those of PhD students and international students. That all goes into the mix. There is a mechanism to impose conditions on the grant of research funding but we have never gone that far.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I was not really asking about it in that context; I just meant in general. I take the point in respect of specific student accommodation and that is fine. Having to pay €12,000 in rent is crazy stuff, however. I am aware there have been funding increases and so on.

At the same time, I have visited different student accommodations that are extremely high end. There can be a balance. Colleges, at the end of the day, have to operate a for-profit model to deal with the funding gap. It is interesting.

Ms Fiona O'Byrne

A new model of student accommodation is being introduced with State funding. A part of it is the subsidisation of specific beds. That is at an early stage and, unfortunately, nobody here is working on it directly.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

That is fine.

Ms Fiona O'Byrne

We could get the Deputy a note on that issue.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

That would be great.

Ms Fiona O'Byrne

The model includes the provision of State funding in return for subsidised beds.

An Cathaoirleach

I will call Senator Pauline O'Reilly next because, in fairness, she was in the Chair for the best part of an hour when I was missing.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I appreciate that. I thank our guests for coming in. My questions are similar to those I asked of the last panel. There is an awful lot missing from this report. An awful lot of indicators that I would think of including are not here at all. It feels that this just includes bare numbers that we do not need to be included in a report such as this because we all know those bare numbers. The indicators should ask what we need and how we are measuring up against that need, for instance, in respect of inclusion. I am asking if our guests agree with that and if they will be making recommendations for next year's report. We must consider inclusion, for instance, and how many people from direct provision or the Traveller community are going through courses. Do we have a target? Are we meeting that target?

I see no mention of climate or nature at all. I am not only speaking about courses that might align with green thinking and green jobs. How are we meeting the targets for carbon and emissions reduction that we have set as a country? Things feel siloed and this reporting structure is making me anxious about the amount of siloing there is. Departments seem to think they are not responsible for climate or nature and that those considerations are only for the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. We will never reach our targets if that is the kind of approach we are taking to transparency.

The other big issue we hear all the time is the challenging situation that students are faced with as a result of the cost of living. We need a measurement for that each year so we can ask how the budget, year on year, is improving or disimproving the lot of students. Is this the best place to have that or would it be best in another section of the repot?

Dr. Deirdre Lillis

I thank the Senator. We absolutely acknowledge and recognise those challenges. As part of the next phase of the evolution of the Department, we are looking at that. Ms Duffy heads our evidence for policy function and is undertaking a review of our indicators at the moment. This discussion is timely as we look at well-being and climate indicators. Ms Duffy is the expert so I will hand over to her.

Ms Trudy Duffy

We are in agreement that it is timely for us to look at what we are reporting on. The Senator has pointed out that some areas are very focused on inputs, what we are putting in and the bare basics of what we are getting out. As Dr. Lillis referred to earlier, we are trying to move to ask what are the results. Are we looking at outcomes and impacts? At the moment, we are taking everything that the Department is reporting on and going through it to see if we consider it still fit for purpose and whether the policy units consider it fit for purpose. We are also taking into account the sustainable development goals, SDGs, well-being, green and inclusion measures. The finance unit of the Department has already gone through and tagged our green expenditure. We are involved in the well-being interdepartmental group and we are ready to roll our well-being measures when the Department of Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform is ready to move on the issue. We are in a good position to move quickly, particularly because we are doing this review at the moment.

The Senator covered some areas in her contribution. We want to be quite cautious about focusing on where we are getting value for money and what is actually happening, the outcomes and the impacts as covered in this report. We also deliver a report in collaboration with the Department of Education at the end of every year. It includes indicators around the numbers of people who are going through education and the numbers who are achieving qualifications. Ideally, we would like to focus the metrics on the outputs to ask what we are getting out of the system, how many people are going through it and how many institutions we have. We would like to focus on that in a statistical report. Ideally, we would like this report to focus on where we are getting value for money.

The Senator asked about cost-of-living measures. It is not my particular area but I can get more information on it. Colleagues of mine on the equity of access side publish a cost-of-living paper every year. That is to inform the work on grants and grant allocations. It could be something that I could get hold of and send to the Senator after the meeting.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

That would be useful. I might have a look at that. Overall, my message is that unless everything is included in the same report, there is siloing. The Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action is next door discussing finance and climate. At this committee, we are discussing finance and education but there is no mention at all of climate and nature. The contrast is stark.

One small point I wanted to ask about is whether we know the drop-out rate. Is that something that will be covered in the statistical report Ms Duffy was speaking about? I do not think it is included for every area in this report. Some areas are included but others are not.

Ms Fiona O'Byrne

We can look at including that. The Higher Education Authority, HEA, publishes non-progression data every year for the number of students who begin first year and do not continue into second year. That is published on the HEA website. The trend we have seen over the past decade is a gradual decrease in that rate from approximately 16% to approximately 12%. In the year of Covid-19, the rate was lower again, which was a bit of an anomaly and links to other opportunities that were there for students. That is something the HEA publishes on an annual basis. We can have a look at whether that statistic belongs in this report.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I thank everyone for coming to the meeting. It is amazing to think the Department of Higher and Further Education, Research, Innovation and Science has only been in existence for two years. It has been in place for three years but we have only had two years of the performance report we have before us. Well done to the officials. This is a brand-new organisation and Department. There is a lot of excitement and ambition. I know there are new systems and all of those take time to bed down.

There are some positives in the report around the apprenticeship figures. The Department is over its target in that regard. It is an easy target to look at. It is hard for people to meet the targets they set. It is wonderful that the Department has gone over and above its target for apprenticeships. I see an increase of 26,325. I ask the officials to speak about that. Where and in what programmes are the increases? We have over 70 types of apprenticeship at the moment. In what areas are we seeing increases?

Mr. Howard spoke about PhDs and postdoctorates. The issue has already been explored at the committee.

I would like to ask a little about GDP, GNI and all these wonderful terms we use. I want to identify how much is going into third level research. We sometimes have figures for research and development that include industry, corporates and everything else. What figures would the officials identify to show what is going to third level research? Of course, we now have Science Foundation Ireland and the Irish Research Council. There are also other organisations, such as Teagasc, the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland and Geological Survey Ireland, GSI, all of which have smaller pockets of funding. They are all competitive programmes that are out there to support research across many different areas. I will ask the following of whomever it is most relevant to. What is the correct measure that we should be looking at? What is it at the moment and where should it be? Ireland's ranking in terms of innovation is falling. That is a key area on which the committee wants to focus. We will be doing that when we have our new research and innovation Ireland agency. Some of those questions may be for Dr. Lillis. When will we see the research and innovation Ireland agency?

What are the steps for us to get there? We had all the legislation only a little while ago in the Seanad and the Dáil.

The Government science adviser is one of the key issues for me. I worked previously in Science Foundation Ireland and in Enterprise Ireland as an administrative person but I know the importance of, and the key role, played by the chief executive. At that time, that was a dual role, with the Government science adviser role. It is something we are lacking. We need a voice telling us in government what it is that we need to see at third level and sometimes it can be difficult for people within Departments to do that. That voice is missing at present. I am aware, from the Minister, Deputy Harris, that that role is out there. I believe it is being actively worked on. Is there an update around the Government science adviser role and when will we see that put in place?

I might leave those questions for a moment with Dr. Lillis. If I have time, I might continue.

Dr. Deirdre Lillis

On the funding question, our latest ranking is the European Innovation Scoreboard. We are still in the strong innovators group. We are told really not to worry too much if we are ranked seventh, eighth or ninth. It is more that we stay in the category that we are in. We are still very much a strong innovator. What is really important is that we benchmark against other small advanced economies, not the UK, the US and Germany but maybe Finland, Denmark and countries that are more like us, to get good benchmarking on that.

We had the highest level of overall expenditure on research ever in 2021. It was 81% since 2010.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Is that not incredible?

Dr. Deirdre Lillis

It is a success story, to be fair. The expenditure on higher education research and development, R&D, which, typically, is the funding into the universities, increased by 8% since 2018. There is a challenge in that our expenditure is fixed under the national development plan, NDP, but we are also looking for alternative sources. We have done well, for example, from the shared island fund, building collaborative research links there. We have a new programme, Innovate for Ireland, which is tapping into enterprise funding for research. We have done well on European schemes as well-----

Senator Aisling Dolan

Well done.

Dr. Deirdre Lillis

-----and are being a little bit more creative as well. The work that Ms Duffy is doing, building the Civil Service research network, bringing in other Departments, helping them run research funding calls and connecting that back to their policy, all will assist there.

With regard to the research Bill, we are near finalising a draft with Office of the Parliamentary Counsel, OPC, in the next few weeks, we would hope, and bringing the stamped Bill. I am reluctant to give a date because it is not in our control fully. We will be establishing the agency as soon as practicable once the Bill works through the Houses.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Apologies, I do not know the OPC. Is there a timeframe? Are we talking six months or a year?

Dr. Deirdre Lillis

I would say maybe three months. It has to go through the Oireachtas and we are not in control of that piece of it. Mr. Howard is closer to this.

Mr. Paddy Howard

As Dr. Lillis said, we are engaged in the legal drafting work at the moment. That is coming along fine. Like Dr. Lillis, I am a little reluctant to give an absolute deadline but I suppose our broad picture would be I expect we will publish a Bill this year assuming we get the approval, enactment, as one would say, if the Oireachtas is willing, hopefully early in the new year, and maybe two months after that might be a date that one could see the new agency in existence. To be clear, the administrative process of bringing the two agencies together has commenced.

Senator Aisling Dolan

That is good to hear.

Mr. Paddy Howard

In anticipation of the feeling that the new agency will come into being, we are doing that kind of work in terms of-----

Senator Aisling Dolan

Integrating systems.

Mr. Paddy Howard

Exactly.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Because an awful lot of the competitive funding is online.

Mr. Paddy Howard

Correct. It is not a surprise to anybody. The decision has been made but while we are formally constituting the body, we will find that the processes have been done.

Senator Aisling Dolan

In terms of the peer review funding, I do not want to see any impact to the existing programmes that are being run and how they are being run. With this plan over the next year to two years, how is the Department planning to ensure the minimum impact to existing peer review processes, funding and competitions that are out there at present, particularly for the stellar centres of excellence across the board? Is there a magic group somewhere that has a big plan that is working on this, both at an operational level and at a strategic level?

Mr. Paddy Howard

Yes. The way I will put it is that what we have sort of said is that we look for continuity in funding in existing programmes at the moment. Obviously, when the new body comes into existence, the new body will then be stirring the lid. In previous conversations around this, we have noted that word of "balance", that a job the new agency will have is to find a balance between the different kinds of research and all that kind of good stuff, but no big shocks in the immediate period until the new agency is actually in existence.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I thank Mr. Howard. That is good to know. That will bring relief to many other groups as well.

The other question I was asking Dr. Lillis was on the Government science adviser role. What are the actions to date on that and when is that planned?

Dr. Deirdre Lillis

On the CEO, we have appointed a CEO-designate and we have advertised for the board of research Ireland, which is the new research agency. That is in train as well.

Senator Aisling Dolan

is that for the new agency?

Dr. Deirdre Lillis

For the new agency, yes.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Fantastic. That is great news. That is really good.

Dr. Deirdre Lillis

We are moving as much as we can for it.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Good.

Dr. Deirdre Lillis

On the Government science adviser, the good news there is it has been advertised by the Public Appointments Service, PAS. The Public Appointments Service, PAS, is conducting an international search and that will go through the PAS process, probably over an eight-to-ten week period. I am guessing. It is the Top Level Appointments Committee, TLAC, process.

Once appointed, the Government science adviser will establish the national science forum, which will be maybe 12 experts in various different fields. As part of that as well, we are looking to increase our connectivity into some of the main international organisations, such as the European joint research centre. It is not only Irish advice; it is international advice.

Senator Aisling Dolan

There will, therefore, be international people and industry people on this as well as academic experts across the fields of the arts, science, humanities, etc. Is that how we would see it being structured? Is the Department is linking in with how to get non-Exchequer funding as well as funding from other partner agencies within this national science forum, or is it more citizen science?

Dr. Deirdre Lillis

It is more experts' view on science and certainly a balance between academic and enterprise. We would also be looking for people who have experience of the policymaking process. Just because it is the right answer from a science perspective does not mean it is the right political answer or that it will be acceptable to citizens, etc.

One of the first tasks of the Government science adviser will be to come up with the appropriate composition of that forum. There is also a dual role for the Government science adviser to work across Departments to develop their science advice capacity as well. Fully recognising that many Departments have their own expert sources as well, there would be a role to pull all that together.

Senator Aisling Dolan

The Department is in the middle of recruitment. Hopefully, there is a big advertisement out now to anybody who wants to apply for the Government's science adviser role in Ireland. It is wonderful in terms of how we are performing in terms of research and the amazing excellence that we have here. When may that person be in situ, ideally, if all went to plan?

Dr. Deirdre Lillis

Probably, the best case may be March-April. Presumably, we will be getting somebody quite senior and he or she will have a period of notice to give, etc. Maybe the best is March-April or as soon as possible after that.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I have one or two other questions. On ETBs, there were different things mentioned here around the apprenticeship programme.

We spoke briefly about the increase. The Department is going over its targets. It is over its target as well in terms of women it is trying to target on to the different programmes on the apprenticeship side. I will talk about the role of ETBs here. In particular, I am looking at this from a Roscommon-Galway perspective. In our new constituency of Roscommon-Galway, we do not have a third level campus. Previously, we had Mountbellew, which was the third level campus integrated with the technological universities, TUs, and with the Atlantic Technological University. Now, within that constituency of Roscommon-Galway we do not have a third level training centre. My question here would be about a demand around apprenticeship training, particularly for the Roscommon area. I know that is hopefully being considered at the moment within the Department. Ms Miley might speak a little bit about the increase in apprenticeships and women.

Second, with regard to the senior academic leadership initiative, SALI, the Department is going over and above its targets in terms of women on the apprenticeship programme. The SALI is looking at targeting women into senior academic roles. Someone might talk to me about that because that is not currently reaching its targets. Targets for that seem to be higher. There were approximately 45 posts in 2022 and the figure currently stands at 31. I do not know whether these are new people coming in each year. Ms Miley might clarify that.

Third, she might address women on research teams and that programme C update. I was not sure whether that meant by each research team. Again, I know it was a target of SFI, of course, for 35%. I understand that it is more challenging in the STEM areas compared with humanities. Ms Miley might speak a little bit around the gender balance.

Ms Sarah Miley

With regard to Mountbellew, if memory serves me correctly, the Minister, Deputy Harris was there last Monday.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Yes, he visited. We were hoping to have funding, and Ms Miley might speak to this, too, for veterinary course for big animals, which I hope will happen in Mountbellew, and courses there that are really important.

Ms Sarah Miley

Absolutely. My understanding is that it is a training location for some of the new farming apprenticeships we have on offer.

Senator Aisling Dolan

That is absolutely wonderful. Our constituencies changed after the most recent census so that is wonderful. That currently sits within the Galway East constituency. I am speaking about the Roscommon-Galway constituency currently. Within County Roscommon, the ETBs are active but we currently do not have apprenticeship training. There is an increase in apprenticeship programmes and in terms of women on programmes. What are the Department's plans for expanding that to centres across the country?

An Cathaoirleach

If Ms Miley does not have a reply now she can forward it directly to the committee. It is a little bit beyond the scope of what the witnesses have been brought in for; it is a little bit parochial. Ms Miley can reply directly to the clerk to the committee.

Ms Sarah Miley

Sure. I can give a headline reply if that is okay..

An Cathaoirleach

That is okay.

Ms Sarah Miley

What I can say is that SOLAS accepts capital proposals from ETBs around the country. With regard to apprenticeship training, they are then considered and passed on to the Department. If a submission is to be made, it can be considered either by SOLAS or the Department.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I believe that the process hopefully will be happening again. I thank Ms Miley very much. I appreciate that time might be short. I might come in later, Chair, if there is time at the end.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Ó Cathasaigh.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

My first question is one I put to the witnesses' colleagues from the Department of Education this morning. The witnesses have detailed some of the work they do around equality budgeting. Have they had direction from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform with regard to reporting under the well-being framework and also under the sustainable development goals, SDGs? I believe that Departments have been instructed to begin reporting under those metrics as well. Do they see their role in terms of allowing Members like me to have a better helicopter view of exactly what it is we are doing with the money we spend? Has the Department considered trying to integrate that into the performance reporting?

Ms Deirdre Lillis Ms Duffy heads up our evidence for policy unit and will speak to that.

Ms Trudy Duffy

I thank the Deputy very much. In July 2023, we received a request from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to start looking at the SDGs. Obviously, as a Department, we are involved in the delivery of a number of the SDGs at the moment in terms of the participation rate of youths and adults in formal and non-formal education, the proportion of the population achieving fixed proficiency in literacy and numeracy skills and persons aged 25 to 60 who are over the third level education qualification. We are, therefore, already reporting and prepared to report on some of those metrics.

We are on the interdepartmental group on well-being and we are well positioned, once we are asked by the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, to move on reporting on those areas. At the moment, we are reporting to the Central Statistics Office, CSO, on the lifelong learning rates and the research and development personnel.

In terms of green budgeting, again, our finance unit has started tagging our subheads in their applicability for green budgeting. We also have indicators in general inclusion. What we are doing at the moment is conducting a full review of all our indicators across the Department. We are actually looking at what we are reporting on at the moment, whether we are reporting on just outputs or on the value we get in terms of the actual impacts. We are conducting that review at the moment. We hope it will be finished in time for the Revised Estimates Volume, REV, discussion this year.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank Ms Duffy. That was a very helpful answer. That tagging process is a really interesting idea. We do not want to end up in a situation where all these parallel reporting mechanisms are being done and it creates more regulatory burdens on the Department. Speaking as a Member of the Oireachtas trying to oversee spending, we are just getting this piecemeal picture. If that tagging exercise was applied to the SDGs and the well-being framework, it would be really useful to me as a Member of the Oireachtas.

There was a report on lifelong learning in the performance review this morning with the Department of Education. It is not referenced by the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. Does the Department of Education have the direct responsibility for lifelong learning or does it lie with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science?

Ms Deirdre Lillis

We certainly have the tertiary piece of that. We may be reporting under part-time participation rates or-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It is one of the areas because generally across the board in terms of education at both primary and secondary and tertiary level, Ireland performs really well. We have a track record of which we can be really proud. We would always like more investment and to have more places and future long-term funding and all those things, but we perform very well by an international comparison in terms of education. The one area in which I would like to see improvement is lifelong learning. We are middle of the pack in lifelong learning participation rates. There was some reporting on it during the earlier session but not in the documentation I have in front of me. I was wondering whether the Department reports on that.

Ms Trudy Duffy

We certainly track and report on it, maybe not in this report but in other reports. I suspect that the education reflection this morning was based on the fact that the Department of Education has up to now been delivering a shared service in terms of statistics for the two Departments. It has actually been taking on the reporting function to the OECD on behalf of both Departments. I suspect that is how it came about.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Ms Duffy is telling me it is a function of the newness of her Department, essentially. I might be straying outside what we are supposed to be doing today but there is huge frustration with the National Training Fund, NTF. I acknowledge there has been a promise to look at the legislative provisions that surround the NTF but I know from talking to employers that they are very frustrated when they see this money going to the NTF and then not being used. There is also frustration from employees who would like to avail of in-work training and things like that. It does not seem to be working quite in the way we would like it to work. Have we any suggestions of how we can streamline this process? No politician likes to see a big pile of money not being spent. Is there a way we can streamline this process a little better so that it better discharges the function we want it to?

Ms Mary McGarry

The Deputy might recall that the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, referred to the NTF in his budget speech and his commitment to looking at exploring new ways of meeting the demands for the higher and further education sectors from the NTF and unlocking that NTF surplus. The Deputy will be aware that we and our colleagues in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment did some work on proposal during the year. However, there is an overall budgetary scenario at the moment because it is included within our ceiling. Our Minister, Deputy Harris, has written to the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, so we are ready to work with colleagues and explore the options for the framework of the NTF legislation and whatever is needed.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

This is very much a spitballing question. However, if Ms McGarry was to indicate the amount of work she sees involved in that process of reviewing and then knowing the ability of the Civil Service to apply in an agile and timely manner, how long would the Department put on that? Is that an unfair question?

Ms Mary McGarry

There has been a lot of focus on it in the past year and certainly in the run-up to the budget. We are confident that we will build on the work that has been done. When we are talking about metrics, the recent Comptroller and Auditor General chapter on the NTF sought to look at the metrics and evaluate the investment that is currently made from the fund across further and higher education. There is a lot of focus on it. We are in the hands of overall budgetary frameworks and budgetary decisions for the country but it will not be from any lack of want on the officials’ part and, indeed, our Minister is very committed to addressing the surplus.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I will move on to programme C. This is coming from someone who has a background in humanities, which is what I studied at college. Programme C concerns research, innovation and science. I have a nagging concern in this regard. Many of the metrics are performing very well, apart from postdoctorates funded by Science Foundation Ireland, which is the one area that is lagging the most. I do not immediately see an arts, culture and humanities spend within that programme. I know that given some of the current legislative provisions we are thinking about, there are concerns among people who work in the humanities that if they do not raise their voices, they might get left behind as we begin to review this area. As somebody with an interest in the humanities, when looking at this performance review, where can I find reference to the humanities?

Mr. Paddy Howard

I want to be clear in regard to the particular indicators that are there. We are currently involved in the development of a new research Bill that will create a new agency that will, for the first time, put on a statutory basis the funding of all disciplines and all kinds of research.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

There is concern in that regard because the humanities feel silent within that legislation.

Mr. Paddy Howard

To be clear about the provenance of this particular indicator, it grows out of the kind of legacy position that there is only statutory provision. SFI has a role in respect of STEM and those indicators were created in respect of that. Where a statutory goal was set, obviously, it was something that needed to be reported on. We have kept that for now as it gives a certain kind of historical perspective and all of that kind of good stuff. To be very clear, when we have a new agency with a new remit that puts all disciplines on a statutory footing, we will absolutely need to look at those indicators again.

There would be material published by the Higher Education Authority on PhD graduates in general and one will find there the annual figure for what the talent pool is, which is approximately 1,500 per year, with 60% of them typically in STEM and 40% in arts, humanities and social sciences, AHSS. We will consider how best to reflect that when we are considering the performance metrics that we need in that new world with a new agency.

Dr. Deirdre Lillis

To step outside the performance measures, what we have asked both Science Foundation Ireland and the Irish Research Council to do is maintain continuity. In that, they will be maintaining levels of funding for the foreseeable future, which is to give comfort to the communities that there will be no big shock in any of this. The programmes that are running this year will almost certainly be running next year, maybe with a few tweaks, but the balance of funding that is there at the moment for AHSS will not change. If I recall correctly, at the moment it is funded through the Higher Education Authority to the Irish Research Council, rather than showing up on the SFI side. We are very attuned to that concern. There is a lot of goodwill between the staff of SFI and the Irish Research Council to maintain that, and they are very conscious of that piece of the amalgamations.

An Cathaoirleach

That concludes our meeting. I thank the officials for coming before us today and for their work, which has been very beneficial to the committee. Our next meeting is at 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 7 November, first in private session and then in public session.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.25 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 7 November 2023.