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Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Jan 2024

Update on Key Issues: Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science

This evening we are meeting with the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Simon Harris. On behalf of the committee, I welcome the Minister and his officials. The Minister is here to update the committee on key issues, specifically student accommodation and the cost-of-living crisis; the teaching of economics at tertiary level; progress made in implementing the relevant key recommendations in the joint committee report entitled The Future of Science, Technology, Engineering and Maths (STEM) in Irish Education; progress made in implementing the key recommendations in the joint committee report entitled North South Enrolment in Tertiary Education; plans to provide capital funding for the technological university, TU, sector; apprenticeships; and new courses to support the gaps in GP and veterinary services in rural areas.

The format of the meeting is that I will invite the Minister to make a brief opening statement. That will be followed by questions from members of the committee. A large number of Members are here, but I will not limit their time. As Members are probably aware, the committee will publish the Minister's opening statement following the meeting.

I remind Members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Minister, you may begin.

I thank the committee. It is a very long list of topics, which I am delighted to try to cover. I will cover some of them in my opening statement and then, no doubt, we will pick some of them up in the exchanges.

In budget 2024, we worked to secure what is objectively a significant cost-of-education package for third-level students. This included a €1,000 reduction in the contribution fee, benefiting 96,000 students, increases in the student grant scheme that took effect from January and, importantly, a reintroduction of postgraduate supports for the first time since the economic crash. Since the start of this year, that has meant that student grants have increased by up to €342 for the period January to May. Postgraduate maintenance grants will return on a similar basis to undergraduates, also for the first time since the economic crash. That is up to €2,384 extra being put back into the pockets of postgraduate students.

One of the changes we announced on budget day that I am most enthused about and that I think has the potential to be transformative for our education sector - we have discussed it at this committee on many occasions - is that, for the first time ever, the free fees scheme will be extended to part-time students. I would be the first to acknowledge that it is only a start, but that will mean that for any eligible student on a qualifying programme earning less than €55,924, the free fees initiative can apply. That is significant. We have heard at this committee, and the committee has held hearings, about the challenges and obstacles that can present to people who need to access education part-time, perhaps a one-parent family, a person with a disability or somebody trying to hold down a job and access education at the same time. I know the committee is very much united behind that agenda and I want to work with the committee to establish how we progress this over the year and how we monitor its impact. This will be only year one but it is something we should try to build on together in the years ahead.

In addition to that, when it comes to core funding, we have increased funding to both our higher education and our further education sectors. This includes an additional €60 million to address the core funding challenge our universities face and a further €67 million to invest in our apprenticeship system.

Since we last met, we have also progressed a significant new policy approach as regards student accommodation with the support of the Government last week. Colleagues may be aware that, on Friday in DCU, the Ministers, Deputies Donohoe and O'Brien, and I launched that policy approach. It is a significant policy change. We talk about this regularly during Question Time in the Dáil. It is a recognition by me and the Government that we can no longer have a student accommodation strategy that is so heavily reliant on the private market to build accommodation. This strategy tries to switch that dial. Effectively, for the first time, the State will now invest public money, taxpayers' money, in assisting with the construction of student housing in and near college campuses.

Our first priority is to activate projects with planning permission. In the middle of a housing crisis, to have projects that have planning permission and that can go to construction but have not is not sustainable. Two of those projects have now gone to tender, with 521 beds across Dublin City University and Maynooth, both of which will go to construction this year. The Government also gave my Department approval to advance engagement to construct a further 2,500 beds across UCD and Trinity and more in DCU. Funding will be sought to advance this through the NDP review, which has already commenced.

The next phase is even more exciting, and that is to advance plans to construct student accommodation in our technological universities. I do not need to stress to committee members here, all of whom represent the regions, that the success of our TUs is real and already impactful. To take it to the next step, however, in terms of both regional development and providing people with an opportunity to come to the regions to live and study there, we need to provide accommodation. That work starts with correspondence that will issue from me to our technological universities outlining the next steps and then a call from the Higher Education Authority for proposals, which will be assessed shortly thereafter.

We are also pursuing a long-term policy change, which the Government approved last week. This is important too. We have heard from student unions throughout the country and from parents about the importance of standardised design. It is one thing if the State is not involved in funding, but if the State is involved in funding, we need to ask what we are funding and we need to make sure we are funding the sort of student accommodation students want. Quite frankly, they do not want to pay for frills they did not ask for while then being expected to pay for them through their rent. It is a matter of working with the Department of housing to agree standardised design to ensure accommodation costs are kept down while standards are kept up. Design times and rents, therefore, should come down too.

We continue to promote and advance digs provision through the rent-a-room scheme. It is working for many students. It does not necessarily work for everybody but it is another part of the mix. We are also developing a devolved grant to help our universities repurpose appropriate vacant building stock, either on campus or elsewhere.

Another point of interest came up through the engagement with students. A total of 22,801 students took part in a survey on student accommodation. That shows the level of interest. As regards the 22,801 people who took part, I was quite taken by how strong their views and attitudes around public transport were.

It was not a surprise to me. I had heard it many times. Exciting proposals could emerge around the development of local and rural transport and could make an impact in revitalising a nearby town or village so people could live there and commute to a university. All of this would inform the development of a new student accommodation strategy and the associated schemes, which will be developed across this year in consultation with Government.

With the Chair's permission I will mention a few other items on which the committee asked me to comment. I again thank and praise this committee for its work on North-South relations and education and an all-island approach to education. I thank it for its work, and a good report came from this committee. One of its recommendations related specifically to the issue of A levels and the equivalence with the leaving certificate. As a result of that, we worked with the ESRI, which did a helpful piece of work I was pleased to launch. I also thank Universities Ireland, the representative body for all universities on the island, in particular the leadership of Professor Pól Ó Dochartaigh, who chaired a group that recommended significant and important changes. Everybody here knows admissions policies are a matter for the universities themselves, but I am pleased at how they have embraced these recommendations. The current situation states it is only possible to achieve the maximum 625 points by taking four A levels and one of them has to be maths. Colleagues will know that the majority of students do not take four A levels. There was therefore a huge barrier. Universities Ireland has recommended A level candidates be allowed use the three best A levels in combination with a fourth A level, AS level or an extended project; or with two A levels and two AS level. That is quite a change. This means applicants can attain a score of 600 points on the basis of these two scenarios, or 625 points if one of the A levels is maths. For those not familiar with the system, for it is a different system, at a high level and a basic level it means it will be easier for students from Northern Ireland to access education in other parts of the island of Ireland.

Other issues need to be worked out and other barriers came up, both in the ESRI report and the Universities Ireland work. I thank Professor Ciarán Ó hÓgartaigh, President of Galway University and chair of Universities Ireland for driving this project. This is some good progress. I welcome that a number of universities have confirmed they will implement this from next September. I understand the remainder will do so from September 2025. However, it is important that clarity is given to students quickly. My Department has also sought to progress work to secure places for students from this jurisdiction in medical schools in Northern Ireland. Under this approach, students would be eligible to apply for an internship in the HSE on graduation. My officials have been working closely with their counterparts in the departments of health and economy and, obviously, the institutions in Northern Ireland over the past 18 months to develop a proposal. This which would lead to more medical places for Irish students in the North and increase the pool of Irish medical graduates educated on the island who would be eligible to apply to work in the HSE. Final details of the proposal are being worked through, but I expect to be in a position to make a further announcement within a few weeks.

I know the committee also wishes to discuss ongoing work to increase healthcare and veterinary places across higher education. Colleagues will know that, over the past two years, we have increased the number of medicine places for EU students by 120, the number of nursing places by 290, and the number of places in key therapies by 273. We know there is more to do. We now have, as a result of an extensive expressions of interest process, which I thank the HEA for running, a list of really exciting options to consider. Many of the members will know them from their local universities. We will be looking to see how we can advance these with the Department of Health with regard to the capital review. I am working closely with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue, and the Department of agriculture on the next steps on veterinary schools. We had an excellent meeting recently and I know we are both determined to work together to increase veterinary provision in Ireland.

I will speak briefly on apprenticeships, where a large body of work is under way on apprenticeship capacity. The year, 2024, has to be the year where we talk about reform of the apprenticeship system. It cannot just be the year where we talk about capacity. It cannot just be the year where we promote apprenticeships, but I assure the committee we will be continuing to do both. We saw a record number of people register to be apprentices last year. However, we need to look at the system. We need to move to a single system of apprenticeships. We cannot and should not have, in any way shape or form, a craft system in one place, a consortia-led system in another and neither of the two meet. It is certainly not about one side becoming dominant or taking over the other. It is about picking the best aspects of both and creating a single modern system that works for everybody. Apprenticeship pay and terms and conditions and how we look after and support them will have to be a part of that conversation. I have just received draft proposals on this, and a final report is due in the coming weeks. We will then engage with the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coveney, and with trade union and business partners at the subcommittee of the LEEF. I pause there and I am happy to take questions.

I should have welcomed the Minister's officials at the start. I want to mention Dr. O'Reardon and congratulate him on his recent appointment as Secretary General in the Department. I know he goes back many years and I wish him the best of luck.

Dr. Colm O'Reardon

Thank you.

I had requested to take some of my colleague, Deputy Clarke's time.

We will give everyone a ten-minute slot and then come back.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire agus le chuile dhuine ón Roinn as teacht os comhair an choiste. We are pleased to have the Minister at committee. I forgot my glasses so I hope I will notice when the clock goes down to zero. This can in some sense follow on from the conversation we had last week as part of oral questions. I raised the fact that I felt this new student accommodation policy contained a lot of hullabaloo about something that, to me, was clearly a reannouncement of policies already in place. We had that discussion on Thursday, and then on Friday the Minister did a press launch in DCU, as he mentioned. In my opinion, he was rightly called out by the students' union for conducting a press launch and reannouncement of the 521 beds he had previously announced in March. I will quote from the students' union itself:

We were invited to attend this reannouncement, however declined for a number of reasons, including the Government's inaction on the genocide in Palestine, as well as us not having the opportunity to ask questions. We're sure there's a photo from last May they can reuse.

I ask the Minister for his views on that.

I will quote from the meeting I had with the USI the day before we announced the policy, where they described the policy as extremely welcome. People have to say in public what they say in private. If they do not, I will call them out on it. We had a meeting that lasted a couple of hours. It was a good and engaging meeting. We have listened to 22,801 students. They will contact the Deputy and they can contact me or email me in any way they want. I guarantee her, if she goes back to each of them, and there are many of them, that she will see, in the policy approved by the Government approved last week, significant elements of what they asked for being addressed. I have great respect for the Deputy, but saying something does not make it true. There is not a reannouncement here. It is a statement of fact. Before the Government decision last Tuesday, we could not press "Go" on 521 beds in DCU and Maynooth. We absolutely and 100% had permission to engage. However, as the Deputy knows, there are stages that have to be gone through in every process. The stage we were at last week, an important stage, was that 521 extra student houses will be built this year. That is really good. I think it is significant progress that there will be 521 more student accommodation beds in DCU, and I reckon students in DCU and Maynooth do too. The President of DCU does. I am sure the Deputy is in contact with him and he can tell her how significant he sees this. The President of Maynooth University can tell her how significant she sees this. It is €61 million of taxpayers' money that did not exist and was not made available until last week. There is also-----

We will be okay on the clock. I am not trying to eat the Deputy's time. There are other elements that are factually new. I had no mandate or permission from Government to ask the technological universities to put forward proposals-----

I will get to the technological universities.

-----and we now do. I am rejecting out of hand the idea that there were no new policy decisions taken by Government. The Government minutes will show that.

That is fair if that is the Minister's point of view. I can only take from what I have seen. To be honest, with regard to this Department, I have never seen so many announcements. In my view-----

We are very busy.

I am not taking from the fact-----

The Deputy is.

Well, I am to a certain extent, because there have been occasions where I have heard what in my view was money being reannounced. On looking into it further, I have seen that had been announced two years running and had been within the base of the budgets at that time. In my view, when the Minister previously announced that 521 beds, I think it was irresponsible to reannounce them because it gives hope to students. Has the Minister given any commitment? Did he give any written commitment to DCU about the rest of the beds it has planning for and which it is hoping to progress? I also mention another part of the policy, which he included, about the refurbishment of vacant and derelict buildings. I wondered what research he had done on this, so I contacted the different universities.

Not all universities have replied yet. The Minister might be able to clarify the situation with the others. I will give a flavour of the responses I have received. DCU, UCC, UCD and ATU have no vacant or derelict buildings. The University of Galway had one building, which could potentially house approximately 80 beds. From what I have received thus far, we are talking about potential for 80 additional student beds. All student beds are welcome and I am not suggesting they are not but could the Minister inform us as to how many vacant buildings the universities have and how many beds he hopes to provide in that regard?

If the Deputy would like to write to me with any specific examples of what she feels are reannouncements-----

-----I would really appreciate it because I am fed up with the generalities here. My Department is working extraordinarily hard on making real and positive impacts as regards pathways for education. A big part of what we do is communicating with citizens, often citizens who have been locked out of education. We will continue to communicate with them. I wish to be clear in that regard.

On the vacant grants or the devolved grant, this was a proposal that came from the universities themselves. If any university president is writing to say this is a bad idea, I would like to know his or her name. Any such president can call me because I have not heard one of them tell me it is a bad idea.

They did not-----

No, hang on. They asked for this grant.

How many beds-----

The universities, particularly the former institutes of technology that are now technological universities, see a real benefit to this. If I was not clear on this before, let me be clear now; it is not just about on-campus vacant accommodation. Sinn Féin's own housing policies talk about the fact that there is a lot of vacancy, particularly in rural and regional Ireland. In its policies on housing numbers, Sinn Féin talks about how it wants to bring those properties back into use. What I am saying is that I want the student accommodation sector to get a slice of that.

What the universities are saying is that we should do this. If I told this committee today that we were going to build purpose-built student accommodation in the regions, which we are, by the way, the Deputy's next comment would be that this would take a significant time, which would be fair to say because we do not have the designs or the planning permission yet. In the interim, we are going to provide a devolved grant and it will be up to each university to decide how best to spend that. That is where it currently lies.

How many beds exactly does the Minister expect and anticipate? To be clear, I asked the universities a straightforward question. I did not ask them to comment on policy. I would not expect them to comment on policy to me. I am sure they would go directly to the Minister in that regard. I asked the universities specifically how many vacant and derelict properties they have on site and how many beds that would equate to, because that was part of the announcement and I am interested in it. From the responses I have received so far, we are talking about 80 beds. I assume the Minister's Department did research on this so I am asking how many beds he expects and anticipates to come from this policy.

We do not yet know. To be clear, the universities asked for the devolved grant. I can think of one example in Mayo, not too far from the Deputy, where there is an old barracks site that could be put to good use.

That is fair. I am just wondering about the numbers and what has come back to me.

If the Deputy asked the universities how many vacant buildings they have on campus, that is a very limited question.

No, I made it clear I was asking with regard to the grant announced last week.

It is about properties in their communities. We are now putting out a call for proposals. We are asking the technological universities in particular what they believe they can do.

I have a question on them as well. I am aware that I am limited on time. This is something I am trying to get my head around. Last week, the Minister mentioned that the TUs were to submit the plans to develop student accommodation projects. Obviously, the TUs cannot borrow at the moment because they would need to be deemed autonomous public sector bodies to be able to borrow off balance sheet. My understanding is that this decision needs to be made by Eurostat on foot of a review by the Central Statistics Office. What stage is that process at? When do we expect the review to be completed? Has the CSO started it? When will it be going to Eurostat? When will that decision be made? That is my first question on the issue, which I ask for my own understanding.

Eurostat already conducted an analysis in respect of our institutions in advance of the Higher Education Authority Act 2022. I do not believe we are waiting on another piece from Eurostat.

Are the technological universities then okay to borrow?

That is a conversation we can have with the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform. There is a question as to how much appetite the State has for taking debt onto the balance sheet.

I am talking about off-balance sheet borrowing. If they have been approved by Eurostat, they can borrow off balance sheet, which means that such borrowing would not be part of the Government debt. What is the story there? Has that been approved or not?

No, it has not.

It has not been approved. Okay.

However, to be clear, as I said on Friday, I believe we should not necessarily tie ourselves to any one method of helping. For example----

I am just asking-----

No, let me give an example. While I am not saying we have, we could well decide that the best way is a public private partnership.

That is what I was thinking because I did not see the Eurostat part.

We could well decide that the best way is the devolved grant for vacant buildings. The borrowing framework is already legislated for in the Technological Universities Act 2018. I believe it is now-----

Has it been okayed by Eurostat?

-----a policy decision for the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform.

When does he expect that to happen?

I am not aware of any outstanding work from Eurostat.

Is it the case that they can borrow off balance sheet?

There is currently no proposal from the Government as to moving their borrowing off balance sheet. The question is whether we will allow them to access the State's borrowing framework.

I am aware of that as well.

That is our question.

However, it is my understanding that the TUs thought there was going to be a proposal as regards borrowing off balance sheet.

There is nothing there in that regard. It would have to be internally from the Government, presumably with - let us be frank - external financing as well. Is that what the Minister is saying? I know that decision has not been made but is that where we are.

Yes, that is right. A number of mechanisms have now been made available to universities through such bodies as the Housing Finance Agency and the European Investment Bank.

I am aware of them.

The Deputy may be aware of them but sometimes people following proceedings at home might not be as aware as the Deputy is.

I do know the education committee is the most watched committee at home.

I am sure it is.

Will the Deputy give the Minister at least a minute and half to reply to the outstanding issues she has raised?

I am very clear that we are not planning any Eurostat review on this issue.

It would be Eurostat okaying a CSO review.

There is no proposal for a review by Eurostat or the CSO. The issue now is a policy matter for the Government as to how it wishes our technological universities to access resources to build student accommodation. One way could be to allow them access to the borrowing framework. That had been the traditional way the technological universities were expecting to go. At a very useful meeting with all of the presidents and chairs of the technological universities and the Taoiseach a couple of months ago, we said that we should not be prisoners to any one way of doing it and that we should find the quickest way to get building. Truthfully and logically, the next step is for the technological universities to submit proposals by the end of March as to what they would like to do.

Does the Minister believe they will have enough time to submit proposals by the end of March? I do not know if some of them will. I know some are fully ready to go but I do not believe others will be. It is a very short period.

It is a fair question but what we are trying to get them to do by the end of March is to flesh out the projects that are there and to let us know what they believe they can do. Many of them have quite detailed plans.

I think there are some that do not.

If they do not, we will certainly work with them, but my sense is that we will be getting a flurry of applications and interest, rather than a dearth.

I am more concerned with regional balance because some may be ahead of others.

If some cannot make it for March and want to come back to us later, that is okay.

We have given the Deputy a good run.

I welcome the Minister and his team who are here with us today. Those in Galway were absolutely delighted to see the development of accommodation. Close to 600 or 700 units have been opened up. That is absolutely phenomenal. We are seeing close to 2,000 beds of on-campus accommodation for the University of Galway, which was sorely needed. The rent-a-room scheme is really crucial. Access to that scheme allows people to provide a room and get rental income without having an impact on social protection income or any other benefits. That is absolutely crucial. We need to continue seeing that. The digs experience was a big part of my own college experience, as it is for many first years. We definitely need to focus on that.

My focus is on some of the areas mentioned here that the Cathaoirleach has outlined for the Minister and his team. The Minister knows where I am based. We talk about it an awful lot. In Roscommon, Galway and Ballinasloe, we have challenges because we are growing towns. I want to see our town double in size but we have challenges around access to GPs in rural areas. This is not unique to where I live and come from. Many people will say that there are long waiting lists and that they cannot get to GPs or that they cannot even join a GP practice's patient list. I am really delighted to see innovative proposals coming through and being submitted to the HEA. I 1,000% back those innovative proposals that are going to change the paradigm as regards what is being offered. Some of those courses are looking at how to promote graduate medical entry, with a particular focus on rural graduates.

Those courses will be delivered in, for example, Saolta hospitals. In particular, I am referencing the application from the college of medicine in the University of Galway. That application is incredible in terms of what it can deliver. We view this not just as an issue for the west, but for any rural area on the western seaboard where there is a small population dispersed over a wide area. We have challenges, and this course could be a game-changer. I would like to know the Minister’s thoughts on this matter. I would also like to hear his thoughts on what is being done about GPs in rural areas. Practice nurses are a related issue, of course, and pharmacies will be able to manage repeat prescriptions from April, a measure that has been brought in to reduce the pressure on GP practices.

Regarding veterinary courses, I know of large animal veterinary practices in rural agricultural areas that are in dire need but cannot get vets. We as a Government and the Department are fighting hard to address the skills gap. The Minister works closely with his colleagues in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, including the Minister, Deputy Coveney, in that regard. There is a skills gap, particularly in veterinary skills relating to large animals. The proposed course that links Letterkenny and Mountbellew with the expertise in Atlantic Technological University could be a game-changer for the west, although it would have an impact across a wider area. It would produce more vets. We have such a shortage. The Minister has met Dr. Edna Curley in Mountbellew. She told me about how she had students training to be vets who were doing their practical experience with her. They are training in Poland. People from east Galway are going to Poland to become vets but doing their practice in Mountbellew. We are in dire need of additional graduates now, not five years ago. We need a decision on funding soon.

If I may, I will pose some options. The HEA is considering courses across a wider area, but I will focus on the ones I have mentioned specifically, including pharmacy. I do not know whether the Minister has comments to make on them.

I do indeed. I am delighted to praise the University of Galway, which the Senator mentioned a number of times. When others felt the need to mothball student accommodation projects, Galway ploughed on. Fair enough, the students union has views on how it could be done better, but great credit is due to the management team and governing authority for ploughing on and delivering 674 more beds this year. We are working closely with them on a project to deliver 200 more beds.

I welcome the Senator’s comments on the rent-a-room or digs scheme. The survey of 22,801 students found that approximately 19% – almost one in five – of those living away from home were living in digs under the rent-a-room scheme. It is working for many people.

It is also working for many families and people living on their own. This week, the Government removed another potential barrier around medical card eligibility. That was important, as people should not fear losing their medical cards if they are renting out a room in their house to help us with housing supply and to provide shelter to people. I welcome that.

The Senator mentioned two specific areas about which she has been passionate for a long time. I am excited to be involved in and to represent a sector that is coming up with innovative and diverse ideas. When our Department sought expressions of interest and asked universities what more they could do to meet some of the key needs of our public services, particularly in healthcare and veterinary medicine, it is fair to say that we were overwhelmed and enthused by the quality and diversity of the programmes that came back. The University of Galway has provided 22 of the extra 120 medicine places. It is showing considerable leadership. The universities came to us with diverse options for doing more, including the Senator’s proposal on a rural and remote medical programme in the University of Galway. It would include prolonged immersion in rural and remote general practice and placements in integrated care hubs. It is a good project.

The honest answer is that we are in negotiations around the capital plan. We will work with the Minister for Health and his Department on that process, which I expect will conclude in the first quarter of this year, to see what projects we can move forward and in what order. The Senator can take it that we and our colleagues in the Department of Health find this idea very appealing. That is how that decision stands now.

I enjoyed meeting Dr. Curley. Her enthusiasm is infectious.

I was in Letterkenny this week. It also took the opportunity-----

Great women leaders.

-----to remind me of the importance of Letterkenny and Mountbellew’s bid. We have one veterinary school in Ireland. It is a good one, but we need more than one. We see far too many students having to go abroad to eastern Europe to get their education. Nearly all of them return and join the register here. The majority of people joining the veterinary register now are being educated abroad. That is not a good or sustainable position to be in. The Minister for agriculture, Deputy McConalogue, and his Department recognise the need to train more vets and, from an education perspective, I recognise the need to provide those pathways at home. We now have three finalists, if I can call them that, with the potential to develop new schools. There is a proposal for Limerick, a proposal for Kildalton and South East Technological University and a proposal for Mountbellew and Letterkenny. UCD has also proposed an expansion of its school. When the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, and I have clarity about our capital allocations, which I hope will be this quarter, we will ask the HEA to take the next steps.

I thank the Minister. I link in closely with these colleges and universities, as they are in my area. They are already striving ahead in terms of looking at how to expand and build the expertise and staffing required. They are planning to meet what they say is a need. There is a large gap for graduates. How will the Government support that development across the country?

We have spoken about the need for further education and an apprenticeship centre in Roscommon town. How to deliver access to students in rural areas is one of the priorities we are considering. Taster courses in, for example, veterinary and equine studies would bring people on to university, but people need to be able to access those locally, by which I mean within 20 miles or 30 miles. I cannot imagine asking anyone coming out of a school in Dublin city centre, Meath or many other areas to travel 20 miles or 30 miles to attend a course in an apprenticeship centre. I am not saying that there is a need everywhere, but there are gaps in the types of apprenticeship course being offered. We can identify those gaps, particularly in further education and in those feeder colleges that offer taster courses that lead to students doing healthcare assistant courses or moving from pre-nursing to nursing. The same applies in the case of veterinary courses. As the saying goes, if you cannot see it, you cannot be it. This is one of my priorities for Roscommon town. The Department has examined what properties are available for consideration by it and SOLAS. Projects are moving along, driven by the Galway and Roscommon Education and Training Board, GRETB, but we would like to see the centre being progressed so as to improve the offering for young people and career changers of all ages in Roscommon.

I thank Senator Dolan for keeping in close contact with me on this matter. I know how eager she and her constituency community are to get this over the line. The approach I take is similar to hers. While we rightly have pride in the fact that we now have record numbers of people registering to be apprentices, which is something we should continue to push, we need to look at the other realities beneath those headline figures. Just as the Senator mentioned, we need to ensure that apprenticeships are available and accessible to people within their communities. We need to make it as easy as possible for someone to become an apprentice and not make people go out of their way. We also need to ensure that businesses in those areas can access and benefit from a supply of apprentices. Businesses should not have to be in a large city or county to do that. We are grateful for and enthused by ETBs coming forward with ideas about how to develop additional apprenticeship capacities within their own areas or counties. Not to digress, but I was in Killybegs on Monday. The ATU campus in rural Killybegs is going to take on 190 apprentices. That will transform not just the campus in Killybegs, but the footfall of predominantly young people in Killybegs. That can only be a good thing.

The Senator’s ETB is liaising with SOLAS on what we call a business case. It has to submit a little more information, but SOLAS and my Department are keeping a close eye on the matter and we hope to bring it to a conclusion as quickly as possible. I know of the need in Roscommon.

I thank the Minister.

I thank the Minister for being here. When I first came here, I did not really understand about the technological universities. I had to learn as I went along, like many others around the table. The level of change in the past few years has been mind-blowing. Students have the opportunity now to be educated at home if they can and want to opt into that. It is absolutely brilliant.

I was hoping the Minister could give us some information on the academic precarity motion Senator Higgins brought to the Seanad eight months ago. The Minister spoke about Killybegs and the apprenticeships, but, unfortunately, there are no job opportunities in rural Ireland in the likes of Donegal. Where Billie is in childcare, there is a vacant place and the manager has to do that job herself because, unfortunately, people may have done the courses or whatever, but are not interested in the job because of the lack of payment. It just does not meet the economic demands people are living with today due to cost-of-living increases.

Does the Minister have the figures for how many colleges are universally diverse, in that they are wheelchair accessible and serve people with autism and other additional needs? Ballyfermot College is close to my heart. It is located in a very disadvantaged area. There are Crumlin, Drimnagh, Clondalkin and all the surrounding places. The staff there are looking to get a level 6 nursing course in the college. We as a committee got to visit the college last year and it has the facilities, but it is about the financial support as well for that to happen. Does the Minister see it being possible for Ballyfermot College to have the nursing level 6 course? I say again that if you cannot see it, you cannot be it. I went to Trinity College for a year. I felt I was being stopped every single day I went in there, so I went to Ballyfermot College to care for people with special and additional needs and to do the pre-nursing course. Sometimes with people from very disadvantaged communities the mental block can even be in your own head, unless you have a college like Ballyfermot that is giving you the support. It is one of the best colleges I have ever been to when it comes to special and additional needs, interpreters and that extra support. Is that possible? Is that something the Department would look into for the college?

The Minister may say that this is a matter for the Minister of State with responsibility for special education, but I do not think so. Mainstreaming children with special and additional needs has to be done at university level as well. It was very disheartening last week to see that children with special and additional needs will still be in special schools when a lot of them do not need to be there; they just need support in mainstream schools. That option should be available.

College Connect is working to a certain extent. This is something we have to look further into in order to really engage with people from the Traveller community and other minority groups. We have a lot of access to third level access nowadays, fortunately, and in the past few years people have got more access online as well. Unfortunately, some people still would not have the price of a laptop or the money for extra support. That is something we have to look at and work on with NGOs that work with people from minority groups that are disadvantaged. There is only so much higher education the Department can facilitate and then it is about employment opportunities afterwards. Even in the past three years I have seen more members of the Traveller community going to university, but when we talk about apprenticeships, could we look at making them culturally appropriate for the Traveller community? We are now talking about recycling and the importance of recycling, but the Traveller community have always recycled. For many Traveller men, it is scrap, so it is about being able to create those opportunities for, say, Traveller men. What would that look like going forward? It is positive to have the Minister here and we are moving in a positive direction in higher education, but again an awful lot more can and should be done when it comes to people from very disadvantaged communities and especially members of the Traveller community. Due to the apprenticeships and the Department as well there are members of the Traveller community working in Leinster House and apprenticeship courses, but there are not enough people in the courses. The Minister has just over three minutes to reply. I am sorry.

I will do my best.

I did not want to stop the Senator. She was on a roll.

I thank the Senator not just for her contribution today, but for her engagement with me over the lifetime of this Department so far. I very much appreciate it. Before she ever told me, I knew she went to Ballyfermot College because when I go to the college they tell me very regularly that she went there because they are very proud of their link with her. We both attended a graduation ceremony in the Helix a couple of years ago. I was out at Ballyfermot College just before Christmas, when we gave the go ahead for its capital renovation project, which the staff are very excited about. It is a superb college and has been for a very long time. It has a very long, proud track record of producing top-quality graduates in key areas with great employment prospects. The building is not what it needs to be. The staff know that and we know that and we have given them the go-ahead. I do not know the answer on the level 6 nursing course, but we will check it out and I will come back to the Senator directly on that.

On precarity, in the interests of time I will send the committee a note on this as it has done a lot of work on precarious employment in our universities. The short answer from me on this is that as we increase core funding and give our universities more money to hire more staff, with that obviously must be a move away from short-term fixed contracts and the like. Last year there was an uplift of about 1,500 people. We have to finalise the figure but this year there will be an uplift of around 1,000, subject to Government approval. We are talking about an extra 2,500 posts going into higher education. We, with the HEA and the institutions, need to monitor that in order that when the employment numbers and posts go up, precarity will start to go down.

I have a couple of points on disability. As this committee straddles both Departments of education, there is a really important piece of work we need to do that is exactly what the Senator said. There are a lot of really good courses available for people with disabilities post-school. There are not enough and we have a body of work to do around consistency of approach to supports and Deputy Farrell's colleague, Deputy Ó Murchú is doing good work with me around the personal assistance and things we need to do. Having said that, there is still a lot there, but sometimes it is like the third secret of Fatima for a parent, who has enough going on with a child who has additional needs, to navigate their way. There is a joint piece of work done by the two Departments around career guidance. For example, there is no career guidance in a special needs school. In fairness to both Departments there is now a way forward, but this committee could help us usefully monitor how we will continue to provide better pathways. We will be making a new announcement in early February on PATH 4, which is a roll-out of courses for people with intellectual disabilities across higher education. I am very excited about it. It is basically building on the model of the Trinity centre for people with intellectual disabilities and asking why we say it is great to have that in Trinity while it is not in Cork, Galway or wherever else. I am happy to keep in touch on that.

On disadvantage, such as access to laptops and the like, we did a very big investment in the form of thousands and thousands of laptops for students, so I might get a view from the institutions on how that went. We now have the Reach Fund, a dedicated fund for educational disadvantage each year. I think there is €6 million available in it. I know it is making a difference because I visit the projects and it is the way forward.

On the Traveller community, I would like to listen and learn from Senator Flynn. I have met Pavee Point and others in respect of this matter.

We are using moneys from the Dormant Accounts Fund for an apprenticeship incentivisation scheme for members of the Traveller community. The pre-apprenticeship course can be a very attractive model because it allows people to get a taste, or sample, of an apprenticeship before delving into it fully. We are very open to ideas. The one area where we are not hitting our targets in the national access plan is on Traveller participation at third level. I am being blunt. It is not just due to a lack of financial resources. There are clearly other issues on which we need to work together. I am up for listening, learning and doing more on that.

This is the final point I would like to make. I acknowledge that Deputy Clarke raised in the committee a long time ago the example of single-parent families needing to access education on a part-time basis. The Deputy said they could not do it on a full-time basis. We did listen, and for the first time under the part-time scheme we will see people from socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds being able to access education part time in higher education and without the worry of fees. That is kicking off in September. I think we need to work together to monitor the impact of it.

I thank the Minister and his officials for being here this evening. It is always a very useful session. I have six points that I want to touch on and a limited amount of time to do so. I will get straight to it.

I wish to refer to the number one issue that is raised with me by the technological universities in particular. As the Minister knows, Waterford Institute of Technology operated as a de facto university for the south east for many a long year. It operated against considerable headwinds, particularly in terms of research capacity. Now not just SETU, but all of the TUs, have been asking for professorial grades. It is a pivotal issue if we want them to function as centres of innovation and research. I believe the issue lies between the Minister and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. Could he tell me where this is and if he shares my view that it is essential that we get this grade if we want TUs to operate in the way we would all like them to do.

When I met the TU presidents and chairs with the Taoiseach recently, it is fair to say that it was one of the top three issues they raised, and which they raise consistently. My colleagues and I in the Department are doing a piece of work in relation to this and we intend to get a paper to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform this month to try and move this forward. In terms of progress, I would like to see that happen this year. That is our aim.

That is very good. The second issue I want to raise is centres of excellence in terms of teacher training education. I think a number of centres of excellence were prescribed as far back as the 1970s. An educational facility could not put on a teacher training course unless it was nominated as a centre of excellence. I am again coming at this from a regional perspective. Some 600,000 people who are within an hour of Waterford look to Waterford for services. I know the Chair will have an interest in this as well. Anybody who wants to engage in teacher training – I was one of those and I had to go to the Marino Institute in Dublin in order to do my teacher training - must go either to Dublin, Limerick or Cork if they want to become a secondary teacher. We have a perfectly functioning education department in SETU but it cannot provide teacher training. Is this something the Department is aware of and is it looking at it because we are short of teachers in many subjects? If we could provide a pathway for teacher education through TUs - to be parochial about it, in SETU, it would be very welcome both in terms of the provision of teachers and keeping young people within their own region.

On the research question, we will have TU Research and Innovation Supporting Enterprise, RISE, funding next month as well. That is specifically investment in research, and the technological universities in the south east will benefit from it.

Teacher training centres and initial teacher education is a policy matter for the Department of Education, but I will seek the views of the Department on it for the Deputy. SETU has not lacked any ambition in terms of what it can do in a short time. It wants a pharmacy school and a veterinary school. These are all good things that it is looking for, but the policy for that lies with the Department of Education. I do know it makes points about demographics and numbers and whether there are enough already. I think the point Deputy Ó Cathasaigh is making is about regional balance in terms of the locations. I will seek the Department's view on that and revert to the Deputy.

The third question I will put to the Minister is something we have spoken about before. He referred to horizon planning. I have spoken about the Acht na dteangacha and the fact that it has very ambitious targets for recruitment into the public service, whereby 20% of new entrants from 2030 are supposed to have a certain required level of Irish. An Coimisinéir Teanga has spoken about the fact that if we are serious about achieving those targets we should be considering putting on a level 8 public services course that is done through Irish. Maynooth University is doing very good work setting out the teastas Eorpach na Gaeilge, TEG, which is the common European framework, for the Irish language. I would like to see that being rolled out to more locations so that more people place themselves on the common European framework as a matter of course, as is the case with French, Spanish, German or whatever other language in order that we can easily compare and contrast the level of Gaeilge people have so that we can be serious about the targets set out in the Acht Teanga. Is this something that is appearing on the horizon as the Minister scans it? Is the Department looking at the need for us to engage in Irish language training? There is a huge issue with teacher training but I refer in particular to public services in order to hit the targets that are set out in legislation?

It is. I thank the Deputy. He has raised this issue with me a couple of times. He raised it when we discussed the HEA Bill, as it was then, through this committee. On the Deputy's recommendation, we strengthened the law around the role for the HEA in the promotion of the Irish language. There is a very strong provision in the legislation on the specific responsibility of the HEA to promote the Irish language and Irish language provision across third level.

I know from my recent engagement with the HEA that it is beginning to talk to each of the universities about what more they can do. Deputy Ó Cathasaigh knows they have autonomy. The question is how they see themselves playing their role in meeting the targets and also in meeting the major opportunities that exist. Colleagues often raise with me the job opportunities at European level in the institutions and the soft power that can bestow on our country. There is a body of work being undertaken by the HEA with the institutions. I am happy to keep the Deputy informed about it.

I will roll the final three points into one because they have been touched on by other speakers. There was great news for three universities in terms of student-specific accommodation. I know the TU sector has been a little bit further behind, but within the sector Waterford is ahead, in that it has a track record of providing student-specific accommodation. The Minister might just give me an a further update on that. I know he has replied to some of the other members in that regard.

If we are serious about the TU sector, we need to put capital investment in place. The Minister will not be surprised that I am going to ask about the engineering building in Waterford, which has long been promised. Neither will he be surprised if I mention the Waterford Crystal site, which we have acquired. It was absolutely fantastic that we acquired it for the expansion of the SETU footprint in Waterford, but now that we have acquired such a totemic site, we need to build on it.

The Minister also mentioned the decisions that are pending on a veterinary school. He said it depends on capital allocations between his Department and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

The other issue relates to a pharmacy school. A number of people are competing for those pharmacy spaces. I would like an indication of when that process will lay an egg and when a final decision will be made on the pharmacy school.

They are all very fair questions. First, I acknowledge, as it is a statement of fact, that of all the technological universities, the only one that has ever built student accommodation, albeit in its former institute of technology construct, is what was WIT. I say that regularly as I go around the country because it is a proof of concept. The process is now as I have set out. I now have a go-ahead from the Government to invite the technological universities to bring forward proposals. That is where I told them we are going to get to. I have been saying for about a year now that 2024 is going to be the year when we invite them to bring forward their proposals. I know they are up for it. Professor Campbell, the president of SETU, has done a lot of thinking on this with the governing authority. I expect those proposal to come in. We would like to get sight of them by the end of this quarter. It is important to be honest with people about all aspects of housing. Obviously, we will be starting without planning permission. I have seen some commentary on this from some of the Deputy's colleagues in Waterford. They asked why Dublin got the go-ahead last week. Dublin got the go-ahead simply because Dublin had planning permission and I was not going to prevent an active planning permission from going ahead. Kildare got the go-ahead also. What I want is to get to a stage where we have a pipeline of projects for the region, including in Waterford.

On the engineering building, I know this has been an extraordinarily frustrating time for the south east, for Deputy Ó Cathasaigh, and for other representatives in Waterford, because it has been long promised. The Deputy knows the reasons and the complexities of the case but the factual position is that PPP bundle 2, of which this is the largest project, is at tender stage and that will be brought to finality this year.

Does the Minister have any more definite timeline than just "this year".

The Deputy should let me come back to him with a little bit more specificity but this is very active at the moment.

I know the time sensitivity of it.

I also want to acknowledge the Waterford Crystal site. It is another thing which some people in Waterford at a political level said we would never purchase. We did and I thank the Deputy for his work with us on that. My understanding is that the South East Technological University is now doing a degree in master planning on that site. We stand ready as a Department to help. We are not in the business of expending taxpayers' money on a prime site without developing it. I know the importance of that site to the university but I also know the importance of that site beyond the university in city regeneration and in some of the other projects the Deputy is involved in.

On the timeline with regard to pharmacy, the Minister said that the Department of agriculture would have to look at the veterinary aspect. We would like a particular result out of that but that would be pre-empting the process. Where are we with regard to pharmacy?

They are both of a similar timeline. We ran two expressions of interest processes in the sector, one around healthcare places, which included pharmacy, and one around veterinary places - myself and the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, in the case of healthcare and myself and the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, in the case of veterinary. We are now preparing our submissions to the capital review which is under way in Government. I expect that capital review to come to a conclusion in the first quarter of this year. That will give us finality with regard to what resources we have available. That will then allow us the prioritisation of projects. What is interesting on healthcare is that from the Department of Health's perspective, all the capacity on offer is ultimately what the Department wants to deliver. It is a question of which projects we can move forward and at what pace. We should have clarity on the capital envelope we have available towards the end of this quarter.

I thank the Chair and the Minister.

I know I said to Deputy Clarke that she was before Deputy O'Sullivan. I hope Deputy O'Sullivan does not mind. My apologies if anything has been picked up wrongly.

I thank the Chair and Deputy O'Sullivan.

It is ladies first. Deputy O'Sullivan will speak after that and then Deputy Nolan.

I thank the Chair. I also thank the Minister for referring to the issue I brought to his attention about the part-time option for study. It is very important that we create the pathways for anyone who wants to go back to education to have the facility to do so. That was a real barrier so I will be following those developments with some interest.

I have three questions I wish to put to the Minister. Other contributors talked previously about the purpose-built student accommodation and I believe the Minister said that in the last quarter, over 48,000 beds were now available. What percentage of those beds are owned privately by investment funds?

Two thirds are owned privately and one third is owned by the colleges.

Are all of those two thirds owned by investment funds?

I would not have the knowledge on that but two thirds are not owned by the colleges and are in private hands.

Could the Minister back to the committee with an answer to that question, please?

Not being funny but because they are private, I would not have a database of their ownership status. I am sure it is available but it is not necessarily in my Department. Certainly, a third of the 48,000 of these places are owned by the colleges and I can provide the Deputy with a breakdown of that and where they are. Two thirds are owned privately.

My second question is that an issue emerged last year in my own constituency to do with a Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, applicant who was renting a room, was therefore not a tenant, was not a licensed holder, and could not provide SUSI with a tenancy agreement. Can the Minister give a commitment that greater clarification will be provided to SUSI because that applicant and grant application was being refused because they could not provide a tenancy agreement, despite the fact that they were never going to get one?

I can indeed. Can the Deputy send me the details, please, so that I can understand where the person was renting a room-----

Renting a room.

-----in their home.

No, renting a room in a third party's home. They were privately renting a room.

And were applying for a SUSI grant.

Yes, they were applying for a SUSI grant.

And were refused a SUSI-----

And were refused SUSI grant on the basis that they could not provide a tenancy agreement. They are never going to be in a position to have a tenancy agreement.

One does not require to have a tenancy agreement.

It was grossly unfair. The person had to go through an appeals process that took an inordinate amount of time for something which should have been very clear-----

-----and obvious to the person who was processing the application that this was information that was never going to be available.

I will be happy to get clarity and to come back to the Deputy.

As I said, this was an issue of deep unfairness which should never have arisen-----

-----and equated to a chronic waste of time.

The final question I wish to put to the Minister relates to Longford and Westmeath Education and Training Board, LWETB. I asked the Minister a parliamentary question last week on the available post leaving certificate, PLC, options. I happen to be a big believer in PLCs which are one of those fundamental pathways for people to go on to various different options they may want to do. I am deeply concerned. The response which the Minister come back to me with shows that the current student number enrolled for the years 2023 to 2024 - the response actually said 34 to 24 but I am presuming that there was a typo-----

I am hoping that is a typo. We might need to do some more classes-----

Someone has been investing in some time machines. The current amount, however, is only at 62% of capacity. That has me deeply concerned, as does the 17% drop in enrolments compared to the previous year. When I look at the courses which are provided, there are nine schools in this education and training board, ETB, and only two are providing PLC courses. Nine of these courses are in Templemichael College in Longford and seven are in Mullingar Community College. There is a 40 km odd difference if one happens to want to go from one to the other and heaven forbid one is in another part of either county.

This is a significant gap. What engagement has the Minister or the Department had with ETBs around the provision of the wider body of PLC courses which could be available? This is an area which is involved in the midlands regional transitional programme and there is absolutely scope there for the development of other PLC courses. My first question, therefore, is what engagement has the Minister had with the ETBs? There are other Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, course providers in these areas. Is there a network which could be developed there? Is this drop-off in demand for the courses being offered in Longford and Westmeath reflective of other ETB's because it is not my understanding that it is? This would be quite anomalous.

I do not have a breakdown by ETB with me but I can get one for the Deputy. Nationally the number of people doing PLC courses is up-----

-----and is up quite significantly. SOLAS has spoken about this publicly and has produced figures on it. In general, the number of people doing PLC courses has risen, the trend is rising and is likely to continue to rise because of the demographics. I am happy to try to get under the bonnet of this and I do not want to interrupt the Deputy's question. I met Education and Training Boards Ireland, ETBI, the representative group for the ETBs last week and I would consider that we have very good engagement with Longford and Westmeath Education and Training Board. There is an excellent chief executive there, Ms Liz Lavery. Mullingar, in the Deputy's constituency, has been chosen to host the new centre of excellence for electronic or e-vehicles so-----

Yet there is nothing on the list of current provided courses to do e-vehicles, EV.

I will get the Deputy more comprehensive note because I wonder if the parliamentary questions are just referring to PLCs specifically and were probably missing the mapping out in that answer with regard to traineeships, apprenticeships and tertiary degree programmes which could be available between the ETB and the technological universities. I would be very happy to ask the ETB to brief the Deputy directly but I would also be happy to get the Deputy a more comprehensive note on fresh provision in Longford-Westmeath because it was chosen. To be fair to it, as the Deputy is also, the ETB put in a very compelling case as to why the Deputy's constituency, and Mullingar specifically, should be the national home of the centre of excellence for EV training. Its logic was that there could be a mechanic with a skill set need - I believe last year more people bought new electric vehicles than petrol or diesel cars. With regard to the upskilling and reskilling agenda, there is very significant and acute need. Mullingar will host that new centre. I was in Mullingar - I cannot remember which month - towards the end of last year to make that announcement. I would be very happy to ask the CEO of the ETB to brief the Deputy.

Yes, do so please, because as an ETB with nine schools, only two of them are providing PLC courses. Some of the schools in that ETB are in very rural areas where the alternative delivery of education would not exist outside of Mullingar, Longford town or Athlone, which also has the technological university. The options for education would be quite limited. There seems to me to be a very real and tangible role for ETBs in this regard in those smaller towns.

Very much so. My impression would be that LWETB is doing that and is doing that well. We have been doing these regional dialogues, which have been quite good, where we have been going to regions and having all the education players at a tertiary level to come into a room to discuss provision and their plans for their region, whether it is an ETB, a research centre, a technological university or a traditional university. One was hosted in Athlone in the last quarter of last year. The Deputy has asked a fair question and I am happy to get her a briefing note from the ETB on the totality of provision in Longford-Westmeath. The big development on my radar, however, which I am aware of, and the big project which we have been asked to fund and support, is around those electric vehicle programmes. That is the big piece of work it worked on as a flagship project for Mullingar. I would be very surprised if the ETB in Longford-Westmeath is not working very closely with the technological university on these new tertiary degrees where one can study for a degree-----

Even with regard to the midlands regional task force, I was talking to Ms Lavery recently at one of the IBEC briefings and this is why it seems to me to be so anomalous.

Let us get clarity, because I know it to be a very proactive ETB with an excellent chief executive and with a great deal of demand. Let me just check that that parliamentary question did not too narrowly capture the information the Deputy was looking for.

I thank the Minister.

I thank the Deputy and the Minister. I now call Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan, to be followed by Deputy Nolan.

I thank the Minister for attending so late in the evening. On the alternative pathway without the requirements for points that was offered to leaving certificate students last September, will he give us an outline of how that fared? I think 23 courses were launched. How many students benefited from it? If the Minister has any information on the types of courses, he might give us a brief outline of that.

The Minister announced a mental health budget of about €5 million in Christmas week, broken down between the various universities and TUs. If I recall, UCC got €350,000 or something to that effect, while other colleges got similar sums. Does he have any trail of what specifically that money is being spent on? I acknowledge it is early days, but is it going to be primarily on personnel, GPs, nurses or counsellors, or is it going to be based more on capital projects or something else?

My next question will be contentious but I feel as though I have to raise it. It relates to student accommodation. There was a story in the Irish Examiner over a week ago about the possible purchase of student accommodation in Cork city to be used for an alternative purpose, namely, the possible housing of IPAS applicants or Ukrainians. As I said, it is quite contentious at the moment. There was an issue just a couple of days ago in Cork where people were protesting and threatening to burn down buildings on the basis of rumour, hearsay, reports and so on. While there has not been any of that in this case for the student accommodation, my concern is that it was purpose built for students and is being used for students. We have all spoken at the committee about the lack of student accommodation and the Minister in his opening statement outlined that he is working to increase that capacity. If I am being truthful and fair, this is probably a question I should be asking the Minister for integration rather than the Minister, Deputy Harris, but I am interested in his perspective as Minister for higher education. If wants to set aside that isolated case, that is fine. What is his position on accommodation that was built for specifically student purposes? In my opinion, it should be maintained, where there is demand at the very least, for that specific purpose.

On the national tertiary office and the national tertiary degrees, which, as the Deputy said, are the first time we have provided degree programmes outside of the CAO points system, he is correct to say 23 courses were identified. I will get him a breakdown, because I do not have one to hand, but I can tell him from my own knowledge and from going around the country and engaging with people that the biggest success by a country mile has been the nursing programme. To be honest, the nursing programme was the inspiration for it. Many talented young men and women wanted to go into nursing but, for whatever reason, did not get the CAO points. They might go into a further education college, take the pre-nursing course and get the best marks possible, and then be told to go to the UK because they did not win the lottery to get a place at university. That is farcical and utterly offensive. We have enough challenges with our health service without staffing the NHS in the UK.

The nursing programme has gone really well. It is currently happening in the north west, so that includes Sligo, Donegal, Galway and other places, I am certainly hoping there will be an expansion of that. I know there are possibilities around the Deputy's region too. We will announce the expansion of the programmes next month and I will be very surprised if there is not a doubling of the number of courses next September on last September. The initial feedback is that it is going well. We wrote to every university and every ETB asking them to come forward with their ideas and letting them know we are open for business. If there is a suitable area in the Deputy's constituency, there is nothing to stop the ETB and the university working together to develop that pathway. There has been a huge appetite, enthusiasm and great leadership from a lot of people in FET and the higher education sector on this. We will get a Deputy a note on the matter.

On the mental health budget, we allocate the money and give the universities discretion as to how best to spend it, which is what they and the students' unions asked for. They know best what to do with the resources in their constituent colleges. In a lot of cases, the mental health funding has been once off, which has led to good outcomes such as capital projects but it does not lead to an ability to hire more staff. This year, with a view to helping with the staffing issue, we have tried to put more of it into the core and the base in order that the university will have certainty on the funding and, therefore, should be in a position to hire more counsellors and others to work in the mental health services. That definitely arose during the engagement with the universities. It is for UCC to decide how best to spend the allocation but, where possible, staffing is a key need in a lot of cases.

I thank the Deputy for raising the question on international protection. I am happy to answer it because it is important in this debate that we do not ever allow misinformation, as he alluded to, disinformation or worse to take hold. I am proud to be Minister in a sector that has done a lot to try to improve the humanitarian crisis. Every year outside of college term time, our sector provides thousands of beds, and rightly so. We will continue to do that and we should continue to do that, and if we can do more, we should do more. We have agreed a protocol with the Department of integration whereby student accommodation, where vacant for more than 12 months, can be considered. There could be a case where a private developer built something that had been meant to be a student accommodation block but never became it. If that is available and it has not been used in 12 months, that is fair enough. As the Deputy will know well, the Department of integration has for a long time been looking at any and all options available throughout the country, and it is true it identified a student accommodation block.

My view is it should not be used. That would require a Cabinet decision. I do not believe we should endeavour to fix one problem and cause another. If there are a few hundred students in a facility, we would need to know before there could be any conversation about using it, where they would go and whether they would be guaranteed new accommodation around the same time, for the same rent and so on. In my broader view as a member of the Government, and this is a view shared by all colleagues in the Government, we need to move to a long-term, sustainable policy on accommodation whereby we can say to communities that it is not the policy of the Government to come into a community and take a hotel or student accommodation. Some of that has been an emergency response to an humanitarian crisis, but we have to reduce the reliance on that because it is really important for social cohesion. I would have serious reservations, to put it mildly, about any proposal to purchase student accommodation that is housing students. I do not think that would be a sensible step to take. We can continue to engage with the Department of integration, however, and to be as helpful as we can.

I appreciate the Minister's directness in his answer. As I alluded to in my initial question, there were issues in Mayfield-Montenotte, which the Minister might have seen in the national news over recent days. It gave the perception that just because a building was being assessed, things had been agreed. In the case of the student accommodation block, it is probably going through the same process whereby it is just being looked at. That perception gave rise to people spreading false information. In the Mayfield case, all sorts of rumours and allegations were going around but it turned out that a developer was just developing a private building because it is his building and he has options other than emergency accommodation, which, I believe, he is also exploring. It led to an unsavoury incident over the weekend and on Monday. That is my only concern. I acknowledge we have to house people and do our best, and I commend the work of the Minister's Department on housing people temporarily in student accommodation when it is idle and ready to be occupied temporarily. Nevertheless, as I said, in the case of student accommodation, not least where there is demand for it, I would like that to be maintained.

On the courses without points, the Minister does not know my second cousin but she was that nurse who missed out on nursing by five points five or six years ago and had to go to England. She had done the course here again to try to get in and got top marks but still could not get a place here, so she went to England and is now working for the NHS. The Minister did not know that but it is a typical example that is indicative of the kind of scenario we are in, so I welcome that alternative pathway.

I appreciate that. While I do not know the Deputy's second cousin, it is generally those kinds of stories, which we have heard time and again, that have inspired the programme.

I want to be associated with the Deputy's comments. I fully commend the Department of integration and the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, on the job they are doing. It would be irresponsible of them, in the middle of a humanitarian crisis, not to be looking for a whole variety of solutions. There is a difference between that, however, and the Government ultimately deciding to press "go", and sometimes people jump a few too many hurdles and decide something has happened when it has not yet happened.

I thank the Minister for his presentation. I will focus on two issues, namely, student accommodation and apprenticeships. I believe they are linked. In terms of student accommodation, every year every Deputy and Senator hears distressing stories from people throughout the country who cannot source accommodation. There are no quick fixes or solutions to this. I can see that. I wonder, with regard to the collaboration between technological universities and ETBs which has worked very well, whether it possible to have more of a roll-out and collaboration whereby we could have hubs in our regional towns so that people do not have to go to cities. This would help to achieve regional balance. I am thinking of my constituency of Laois-Offaly where things have worked quite well with the technological university in Athlone and the ETB. There is evidence of good collaboration and results, which are important. Could we do more of this? We will not solve the accommodation shortage overnight but we need to provide other solutions for people. This would have economic benefits. We could have hubs in towns where people could be accredited with a TU qualification and yet not be under pressure to source accommodation 30 or 40 miles away. Could this be a solution?

With regard to the roll-out of accommodation and building accommodation, we can speak all we want but we need to have more apprenticeships. We need more apprentices taking up construction or we will not see delivery. With the best will in the world we can throw millions of euro at it but we need apprentices and people to build this student accommodation and these units. ETB Ireland highlighted this issue a number of years ago. I acknowledge the great work the Minister has done on apprenticeships. He certainly has ramped it up. With regard to construction, how are we faring in terms of bringing in numbers? It was said at the committee when we met apprentices there was an issue with the wet trades. There were gaps and people were reluctant to go into the wet trades. How do we ramp this up? Is there any use in looking at other education models? I am thinking of the German model which has delivered. For decades it has been doing amazing work on apprenticeships. Do we take anything from this model? Do we use any of the ideas from this model in terms of ramping up construction? This is to be constructive.

The student accommodation we have is scarce. Is it possible to put in place student accommodation officers to assist families, particularly families of first-year students? People really are under a lot of strain trying to source accommodation. They do not know where to look. Students encounter difficulties and it adds to the stress of beginning college. We could do something pragmatic and sensible, such as the roll-out of a pilot scheme whereby student accommodation officers are put in the main colleges to assist students.

I find myself in pretty much complete agreement with Deputy Nolan. I will go through the issues. With regard to the regions and remote learning hubs, Deputy Nolan is entirely correct. Relatively recently, some time last year, I attended a launch. There is a lot of talk about remote working hubs and I believe they are working reasonably well, and particularly well in some areas. There is an extension of this to come with remote learning hubs. The Technological University of the Shannon and its president, Vincent Cunnane, is involved in this. A number of universities, and particularly the technological universities, are showing an eagerness to do this.

I visited Longford Women's Link and women in Longford are studying remotely doing degree programmes with, if my memory is correct, the Carlow campus of South East Technological University. There are already examples of this and there should be more of it. So that no-one misrepresents me, this would not be as an alternative for those who wish to go to university full-time and get the full college experience but to recognise that not every student is 18, 19 or 20 years of age. The OECD report on skills tells us that more and more of the students of now and the future will be in work. They will be engaging in lifelong learning. They will be holding down a job and paying a mortgage when they need access to education. This is really where the remote learning hubs can come into their own. Yes, there is a willingness from us to do more of it. It is a very good idea.

I also think, and this is where I thought Deputy Nolan was going to go with her questions, when it comes to building student accommodation in the regions we should have an openness to building student accommodation that is not specific to this university or that university. We should have an openness to building student accommodation for the region. For example, whether people in Galway are going to ATU or the University of Galway should not matter; there should be student accommodation for people who are students in Galway. We are speaking to universities about this.

With regard to student accommodation officers, the short answer is that we should do this. To be very honest, when we spoke to the universities a number of years ago, not now and I am not speaking about the current leadership to be fair, people saw student accommodation not as the core part of the job of a university. They saw it as the universities doing education and the market or the Government doing housing. This does not really work because if people do not have a roof over their head and clarity on where they are living it is very hard for them to focus on their education. As the universities get more involved I do not think it is fair to leave it to the students' unions and local Deputies, particularly student unions which have to scramble to find solutions for people. Building up capacity in the institutions on accommodation is key. As part of our new policy approach we are looking at the idea of student officers. We are engaging with the technological universities specifically on this.

Deputy Nolan is right in what she said about apprenticeships. All of us here speak about building houses. It is very important that we need to build more. None of us will build houses. We need approximately 50,000 more people to work in construction by 2030. There are some encouraging signs. Deputy Nolan asked a direct question as to how we are doing on the trades and crafts registration. The answer is that we are doing pretty well. Last year 8,717 new apprentices registered. Of these, 6,588 were in the crafts or trades. We are a little ahead of target on where we want to be. I must also be honest and say the targets need to increase. As the targets for housing increase we are going to need to increase these figures also.

We are looking at some reforms. For example, the painting apprenticeship takes four years and there is now a belief that it could be provided in two and a half years without impacting quality. We will roll out a pilot on this later this year. Last August we published a careers in construction action plan which looks at how we promote more people taking up careers in construction. This year we will launch a €750,000 campaign to promote careers in construction.

On the German model, the short answer is that we look at many different countries for best practice. What appeals to me about the German model, and I think it appeals to many Irish people, is with regard to, if we are to be blunt, a snobbery about third level education. Let us be honest; many mums and dads in this country have decided that somebody else's sons and daughters will be apprentices and their sons and daughters will go to university. We need to align universities and apprenticeships. People can now go to the Technological University of the Shannon and do an apprenticeship there. They can have a graduation the same as everyone else and access the library the same as everyone else.

We need to move beyond this conversation I hear all the time of asking people whether they are going to third level or doing an apprenticeship. An apprenticeship is third level. It provides people with a qualification under the national qualifications framework. When it comes to an apprenticeship in Ireland people can do a PhD or a masters as an apprentice. They can do a level 8 qualification as an apprentice. With regard to the German model and what we can learn from it, it has this integrated system whereby when people go to third level education they might go one way or the other but they are still in the third level education system. This is something we are working on.

I thank the Minister.

I thank the Minister for his continuing engagement and I also thank his officials. I am a member of the Oireachtas transport committee. This afternoon Mr. Jim Meade, the chief executive of Irish Rail, came before the committee. I do not know whether the Minister is familiar with his CV but he began as an apprentice mechanic. He went in at 18 years of age and worked his whole way up from a tool bag to chief executive of the organisation. It is fantastic, as is the colour with which he can speak about Irish Rail when he is before the committee. He understands every role in the organisation. Even nicer than this, three or four times a week when I get the train to Dublin and meet the staff at Colbert Station in Limerick they speak very fondly of their chief executive. I would say this is quite rare in an organisation. He has literally worked from the floor up. He has a very important role and a busy role. I ask the Minister to tap into his resources once or twice a year. The Minister is doing great work advocating for apprenticeships. This is someone who should be flanking him on one or two of these occasions to speak about his experience.

Indeed, he should be used to some degree in marketing or whatever campaigns the Department has.

One of the issues we raised with him is the idea of students commuting. I agree with the Minister that students should have the on-campus experience where at all possible. Those are the four best years of your life, if it is four years. For some it is longer and for others it is shorter. It is not all the academic stuff; it is falling in the door at 4 a.m. and going places with your friends. It is so important. Life gets serious very quickly afterwards, as probably all of us in the room know.

At a time of an accommodation crisis, many students are commuting. There are many specific and bespoke constraints to each campus. I can think of one in the University of Limerick. There is the black bridge, as we call it. It is a bridge that links counties Clare and Limerick. It was built during the 1940s when Ireland believed it was heading into a world war. Our Defence Forces built it as a quick way of moving the Defence Forces across one county to the other. I am a bit of a local history buff. It was built in the 1940s and it has withstood floods and everything one can imagine. I do not know who made the executive decision but in 2019, the university, both local authorities, the Department of Defence and the OPW collectively decided it needed to be closed down because it was not safe as floods travel down the River Shannon in the winter. If that bridge was reopened, there is a population of 15,000 in Clare who could access the university campus without having to come through the city environment every day. There are bus and train services that cease to operate at 7 p.m. and 8 p.m. I am just thinking of the mid-west but I am sure it is the same everywhere in the country. If students have finished their lectures and want to fraternise with the people on the course and go for a meal or a few drinks on campus, they cannot because they have to rush to get the train.

The solutions for much of this lie beyond the Minister’s Department but I hope at Cabinet he could speak up and say, particularly to the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, that there has to be a way of adjusting things. We do not have to revamp or flip everything over head on heels but surely make an adjustment.

The next issue I wish to raise is QQI verification for individuals who undertake the famous green certificate course to become a farmer. This has an agricultural heading to it but also belongs in the realm of Revenue because a young farmer under the age of 35 who has completed a green cert qualifies for young trained farmer relief with Revenue. This means that if your mam, dad, uncle or whomever is passing a farm over as a farm succession, the young farmer gets a huge discount in stamp duty. It makes it very viable. I did a green certificate myself many moons ago. The problem is not the Department of agriculture or Revenue; rather it is QQI, which verifies the level 5 and level 6 examinations. It has damn-all concern to a 28- or 29-year-old doing that course. He or she can wait five or six years. However, I came across a few scenarios since I have become a TD where 34-year-olds wait for months for QQI to verify their grades and exams and, suddenly, they reach their 35th birthday, and all hope of getting this reduced stamp duty goes with it. This administrative delay stacked on someone’s desk somewhere means that a young man or woman reaches their 35th birthday and that stamp duty relief that Cabinet approved just disappears in front of them. It is devastating. In October, I saw a youngster get a €28,000 stamp duty bill when it should have been next to zero. It is an administrative issue. Perhaps the Department can issue a circular to QQI stating it should do an age audit and if there is someone in that stack who is aged 33 or 34, they need to pulled and verified, for better or worse, and then move them into the approved phase.

I am nearly finished. I just want to squeeze in two quick questions. There are many language schools in all Irish cities. It is a survival skill; you have to have language when you come to a country. People spend a couple of years there and then come out with really good language skills. However, I have never been sure what the pathway is thereafter. It is a ripe, fertile ground for the Minister because he is always promoting continued education, be it apprenticeships or third level. There must be some pathway. None of us are sure where people go when they have completed a language course. I would love to know whether there is something next.

Finally, the UL presidential house in Killaloe, County Clare sold for €790,000 prior to Covid. A second presidential home was then built for €2.2 million and there was then a third presidential home. Much of that was built with philanthropic funding. The latest I heard is the third presidential home is not being lived in on a full-time basis. Will the Minister make inquiries? At a time youngsters are couch surfing and sleeping on the backseats of cars on campus at night, do all third level presidents have accommodation provided and is it being used? There is the whole ethical issue and the optics. We live in a world of optics. We get crucified by optics. If they have luxurious, superfluous accommodation on campus, they should be using it or at least selling it on. If they do sell it, that money should go into the accommodation pot of the campus.

I thank the Minister for all his efforts. I am sorry about the curveball question at the end.

I thought the Deputy was going to ask about the ministerial suite over in the Department.

I am lucky to have an office.

I thank the Deputy and welcome him back after his surgery. I will check that issue out. My honest answer is that I do not know. I have a dim view of any sort of vacant property in the middle of housing crisis, to make that point more generally. I have no knowledge of that but I will endeavour to find out for the Deputy.

I thank him for paying tribute to Jim Meade and Irish Rail. I consider him and the company champions of the apprenticeship programme. The Deputy is correct that it is such a case. I had a different case where the CEO of the Irish branch of the Zurich Insurance Group was in a DEIS school in my constituency in Bray. I witnessed the power he spoke with to the students there about his apprenticeship pathway, and now he is the boss of the organisation. The more we can show people how the apprenticeship is not a lesser route but just a different way of learning, the better. In many ways, it can present a more rounded employee or leader within an organisation. I am pleased that both the CEO of Irish Rail and Irish Rail are very involved in Generation Apprenticeship, which is our programme that promotes apprenticeships, and I will continue to ensure that they are. I also thank them because they are an organisation that has provided 18 places to assist us with capacity as we deal with the Covid backlog in respect of apprenticeships. They do not just talk the talk. They have really stepped up and I acknowledge and thank them for that.

I am glad the Deputy brought up the students commuting issue. I had an excellent meeting with the Minister for Transport on this last week. When we were bringing our student accommodation policy to Government, certain issues became clear when we talked to students. Through a survey, we talked to 22,801 of them, which is a lot of people. We were hoping approximately 10,000 would do the survey. It was interesting the number of times public transport and transport links came up when we were asking people about accommodation. Then you stop and think and realise that it is not actually that interesting at all; rather, it is logical. We know from the survey that 50% of students live at home. Many commute, including in my constituency. We have reasonably good public transport links. Approximately 50% of students commute to college from wherever. However, even among the 50% who do not and even when they live near college or in college accommodation, transport becomes a big part of their life for all the reasons the Deputy said, for example, to get to a part-time job, have a social life, move safely in and around a city or get from accommodation that might be a bit of a distance from the campus. Public transport links affect every student. What we agreed with the Minister for Transport and his officials as recently as last week is that we will work on an action plan specifically on how we develop these links in regional areas. The National Transport Authority agreed that it will collaborate regionally with universities. This should be done regionally. There needs to be contact points in the regions for the universities to make their views known and to be fed into the plans. We kind of knew this but now we have the weight of the evidence. Students view this as key to helping ease their accommodation challenge but also to improve their student experience. I am happy to keep in touch with the Deputy on this as we roll it out. He gave up a couple of regional and local examples in the mid-west that I will feed back as well.

Regarding the QQI, I will follow that up directly and I take on board the seriousness with which he raised it.

On the language schools, I am due to meet with their representative body shortly and I am happy to discuss this with them. We are going through a period of reform in respect of language schools and international education in general. We intend to introduce the international education mark shortly, which will basically accredit for the first time our language schools and our international education offering. However, there is, as the Deputy knows, sometimes an issue with visas, what a visa does and does not allow people to do and the length of time they can stay. I am supportive instinctively of what the Deputy said but I will need to engage with my colleague, the Minister for Justice, on that.

I have a small number of questions. Deputy O'Sullivan raised the issue of mental health supports and the recent announcement of the €5 million in supports for students in third level education. Will the Minister comment on that? Will that just sustain the current level of service there or will it increase?

He mentioned employing additional counsellors for third level institutions. What sort of numbers does he have in mind? From speaking to some of the people in third level institutions while going around the country over the past two or three years, this is a huge issue within the institutions. The generation that is going through third level education at the moment requires more and more supports within third level institutions.

What I might do is send the committee a note on this but the short answer is "Yes". The €5 million will sustain existing provision but we hope it will do a bit more than that because what we are also trying to do is put funding that had been temporary funding into the core. One of the things the universities regularly say is that all funding is welcome and makes a positive impact but if they can have certainty that this funding is recurrent and is gone in as core funding, it enables them to hire staff. It is much harder to hire someone if the funding is year to year and, therefore, we expect it to make a positive impact. The institutions are autonomous. We are not overly prescriptive of what they do and that is quite important. It does not mean we are not interested but we want to give them the flexibility locally to decide what their need is and I encourage them, as I do again today, to engage with their student union representative bodies about what the students see as a need. There is no doubt that in society generally we are seeing real challenges when it comes to mental health and there is a bit of a Covid impact as well. I meet a lot of college students now who somehow never even got to sit a leaving certificate, say goodbye in school or have a debs. There has been a whole cohort of people who found themselves plucked from the second level education system almost overnight to learn at home and then into college and we are conscious of that in our provision.

Following on from that, I refer to the suicide prevention programme to be fully implemented within tertiary education. Has the Minister any service level agreement with the HSE or the Department of Health regarding the suicide prevention programmes within third level education? There is a responsibility upon the HSE and the Department in this country and unless the Minister has some sort of service level agreement with them, they can opt-out from this responsibility. This cannot be a responsibility of his Department alone. There has to be an opt-in by both the HSE and the Department of Health but given the pressures that they are under at the moment, they will try to backtrack from their own responsibilities within the area of suicide prevention in third level education.

The Cathaoirleach raises a very important issue. We obviously have Connecting for Life, which is the national strategy that stems from the National Office for Suicide Prevention and within that are clear actions for a whole variety of parts of society and public bodies today. That is the structure through which we co-ordinate. I acknowledge that there has been very good co-operation and support from the HSE on the roll-out of certain initiatives. A 24-7 text line that is available to all our citizens if somebody is in need of mental health services and support. The HSE very kindly worked with us to tailor that, promote it within the college campuses and work with student unions and other on that. The next step is the healthy campuses initiative where we have received funding and on which we have now appointed somebody within the HEA to lead. This is to look at what needs to be done within universities. It is part of the Healthy Ireland agenda, which is a Department of Health initiative. I am not aware of any form of service level agreements. Some of the bigger universities have health clinics and the likes but it really means the healthy campus and the Connecting for Life structures and then initiatives such as the 24-7 text line can be rolled out. In fairness to the HSE, I am very satisfied that it is working hand in glove with its own people on this.

Last year, we had an evidence-based session from representative of both the active consent and the bystander intervention programme. There are different challenges for a huge number of students out there but some of the research carried out by the active consent programme in the University of Galway and the Union of Students in Ireland in 2020 has found that 42% of women in the first year of college has experienced unwanted sexual touching. In addition, 29% have said they experienced completed penetration against their own will, similar to the definition of "rape", in the previous 12 months. As I said, we heard evidence from both these programmes and it was really interesting to hear of the challenges that specifically female students are experiencing. Does the Minister has any measures or supports in place to make sure higher and third level institutions are a safe place for female students specifically? This happens to males as well but predominately the feedback came from females.

As the programme for Government states, we are living in a country where there is an epidemic when it comes to sexual and gender-based violence and we need to call it out. I do not believe our universities are any different to wider society or wider workplaces. As I always say when I speak to our university students or staff, sexual, domestic or gender-based violence is not unique to third level education but we are nearly unique in our ability to help transform culture in Ireland. First, a university campus operates like any town of village but it also has the next generation of employees, parents, employers, and leaders and therefore there is a particular responsibility on education - I do not think it should start in third level, by the way - around issues to do with consent. This is why I thank the Cathaoirleach for mentioning the active consent programme led by Dr. Pádraig Mac Neela and an incredible team of people in Galway; similarly, I acknowledge Professor Louise Crowley in University College Cork with the bystander programme which the Cathaoirleach also referenced. There are people who have been champions for years before others were talking about this at all. What we are now doing as a Department under the zero-tolerance strategy is trying to embed that good practice across our universities. It had been left to active consent and the USI to carry out surveys. It is great they do it but it is not right that it falls to them. Therefore, we now do a survey and report against it. We have national strategies. It is great that we have national strategies around tackling this violence in our universities but sometimes people can hide behind these slightly. We need to know what this means for University College Dublin, Trinity College Dublin or the universities of Galway or Cork and, therefore, now we have each of our universities publish a plan on what they are going to do on their campuses to adopt a zero-tolerance approach and they have to report against those plans to the HEA, their funder, on a yearly basis, just as they have to report on many other things to do with finances. We have also put in place staffing related to this. We have co-ordinating posts that we have funded within our universities now where there is a person in that role. I have met them. They are not the sole people responsible for creating zero tolerance as that needs to be everybody in the university but they are the people within the university who has that co-ordinating role to make sure there is somebody working on it full time rather than it being a part of somebody's job. Can I say there is no sexual violence in Irish universities? Of course I cannot because there is sexual violence in all parts of society. However, can I say we are better prepared to move towards a zero-tolerance culture than we were a few years? I think we are but the country has a huge way to go regarding this. An important point that is always pointed out to me in that survey is that these are students who are saying they have experienced sexual violence; they are not saying they experienced it on the campus. This is often a student on a night out or in a workplace and that is important to say too. It is not a problem that is in any way, shape or form unique to third level but we can play a really important role in helping move the dial culturally. We have invested a lot of energy, money and resources in staffing up our universities but I do not ever want to hear that is the job of a vice president for this or somebody for that. This has to be a job for the chief executive of every university, the president, to make sure there is a zero-tolerance approach. They have to publish their plan, support the person in the co-ordinating role, account for it in respect of their HEA responsibilities. If we do that, over time we will see third level education play a really positive role in changing the culture in Ireland.

I thank the Minister for the reply. Any form of funding going in is very welcome. There are a lot of students who leave sixth class at 17 or 18 years of age and go straight into third level education, whether they go to Limerick, Dublin, Cork, Galway, Maynooth or wherever that student chooses. It is predominantly female students affected by this. It is happening on the nights out rather than on campus but it is still very much part and parcel of university life. They have to go out, socialise and enjoy themselves.

Any funding is welcome and the work that is done by those organisations is fantastic. They are champions in their own way. This is a subject that was not always the most comfortable subject to talk about, but people are becoming more comfortable with talking about it now and raising the issue than they were in the past.

Deputy Ó Cathasaigh raised an issue about the South East Technological University. The Minister has been very supportive of the new site in Wexford. I compliment Wexford County Council. Mr. Tom Enright is retiring at the end of February. I compliment him. I know the Minister will echo me in that. His work was part and parcel of securing the site in Wexford.

The Deputy mentioned the veterinary profession, as did Senator Dolan. The Minister and Department now have to go through a process. Will they tell us what the remaining parts of the process are, before a final decision will be made about the veterinary side of it? I support Deputy Ó Cathasaigh on teacher training. There is a vote in the Dáil, so I will adjourn the meeting.

I have one question which I ask the Minister to respond to in writing. I had discussions recently with a dentist who is a member of the representative body. In other jurisdictions, such as Canada, a postgraduate model is used for training dentists. Would he consider adopting this model in Ireland? Does he believe it would encourage mature applicants and a greater diversity of students and trained dentists? He will be aware there are huge challenges in dentistry. It is an issue we hear about when migrants go into a community and there is no doctor or dentist. I would appreciate if he would come back to us on that.

I will allow Senator Dolan to ask one question because we have a vote and then I will get the Minister to reply.

My question is about the importance of local transport which the Minister mentioned at the start of his opening statement. In the SUSI scheme, the Minister expanded the radius from 30 km to 45 km or perhaps more. That is crucial for rural areas. How does the Department link in with LocalLink? For example, I am fighting for a bus route between Athlone and Ballinasloe - a LocalLink service that would bring students into the TUS in Athlone. That cannot happen without a bus going regularly on that route. Perhaps the Minister could come back to me on that.

We will write to the Senator on that. We will set up regional forums so the universities can plug in locally with the NTA and others who are beginning to unblock some of these issues. I also thank Tom Enright. I will come back to the Cathaoirleach about the dental issue, is primarily a matter for the Dental Council, and on the Wexford site on which I understand masterplanning is under way.which

I thank the Minister and his officials for coming. There is a potential for 22 votes this evening in the Dáil, so we could be there for a few hours. I am not sure whether this is the start of the voting block. It is no use for me to say I will come back in an hour.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.24 p.m. until 11.00 a.m. on Tuesday, 13 February 2024.
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