Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 27 Feb 2024

North-South Student Mobility: Discussion (Resumed)

An Cathaoirleach

Before I welcome our witnesses, I want to welcome Janine Keenan from the Holy Family School for the Deaf in Cabra in Dublin 7. I hope you enjoy your time here in the Oireachtas. I know I speak on behalf of all of the parliamentary community when I say that I hope you have a very positive learning experience. Members of this committee visited the Holy Family School for the Deaf in recent months and were very impressed by the standard of education provided there. You are very welcome. It is great to have you here.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome from the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, Professor Emer Smyth, research professor in the social research division and adjunct professor at Trinity College Dublin, and Dr. Merike Darmody. The witnesses are here today to discuss the findings of their report entitled Student Mobility in Ireland and Northern Ireland. The format of the meeting is that I will invite the witnesses to make a brief opening statement. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Both Professor Smyth and Dr. Darmody will have a five-minute slot for their opening statements. Which witness wishes to speak first?

Professor Emer Smyth

We will make a joint statement. We are delighted to address the joint committee today. We wish to highlight a number of key issues emerging from our research on the potential barriers to cross-Border student mobility. Drawing on administrative data and stakeholder interviews, our study shows relatively low levels of undergraduate student mobility between Ireland and Northern Ireland. Those from Ireland make up only 2.4% of students in Northern Ireland, whereas students from Northern Ireland make up only 0.6% of students in Ireland. More students from Ireland go to study in the rest of the UK than in Northern Ireland. There is also a relatively large outflow of students from Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK, reflecting the cap on the number of places in Northern Ireland and, therefore, high levels of competition. Our study shows that these patterns of student mobility are influenced by differences in higher education entry requirements, the cost of studying and the availability of places. A substantial proportion of applications to study elsewhere are for highly competitive medical-related courses, indicating the role of availability of places in driving mobility decisions.

Students from Northern Ireland can apply through the Central Applications Office, CAO, procedure. However, to date, applicants have needed to take four A-levels to get maximum points, and only a handful of students in Northern Ireland actually do so. In addition, the language requirement for many courses limits access for students from Northern Ireland, where smaller numbers take a foreign language at A-level or GCSE level compared with leaving certificate students. Only a minority of applicants from Northern Ireland or Britain make it all the way through to being offered and accepting a place in higher education institutions in Ireland, partly they are less likely than those from Ireland to meet minimum entry requirements. However, even when they are offered a place, those from Northern Ireland are less likely to accept that place. This may be because they are using it as a safety net in securing a high-demand course like medicine or because they receive the offer for Ireland later than for UK universities. Similarly, acceptance rates for UK universities are lower for Irish applicants than those from the UK.

The decision to study elsewhere reflects the complex interaction of tuition or registration fees, financial supports and other living costs. Students from Ireland generally face lower accommodation costs by moving elsewhere, although a significant proportion of students have no such costs as they live in the parental home. There is a strong case to re-examine the CAO points equivalencies for A-levels, as has been done by Universities Ireland and which will go the academic councils of universities this year, and to look at modern language requirements, given these operate as barriers to candidates from Northern Ireland.

School-based guidance could provide greater awareness of options in other jurisdictions, supported by ongoing outreach work by higher education institutions. Decisions about where to study take place for students against a broader backdrop of rising costs and access to different levels of financial supports. Current accommodation costs and a lack of housing availability are undoubtedly barriers to students moving from Northern Ireland or from the rest of the UK. While some financial supports are in place for students in both jurisdictions, there is a broader issue around the extent to which such supports cover the cost of participation.

Stakeholders point to the value of mobility for students themselves, for student diversity in higher education institutions and for enhancing cross-Border co-operation and understanding, highlighting the importance of addressing these barriers.

I thank the committee.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Dr. Darmody wish to add anything?

Dr. Merike Darmody

No, I am okay.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Mairéad Farrell.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I thank the Chair and I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. I attended the launch of the witnesses' report a few months ago. It was fascinating and I thank the witnesses for that research. The committee had other consultations on this matter approximately two weeks ago and one of the things mentioned, which was mentioned in the witnesses' opening statement as well, was the potential for greater school-based guidance to provide greater awareness of options.

On page 10 of the ESRI report, it mentions there are two main strands to guidance provision in schools in the North, one of which is careers education, with this being provided by careers teachers, and the report details how this is done. It seems to me, and from speaking to school students two weeks ago, that what information you have is very much based on your school. I studied my undergraduate degree in Galway and my postgraduate degree in Belfast, but my dad is from Belfast, so this obviously led to better awareness. What else do the witnesses think should be done to create that greater awareness for students, if it is a question at the moment that this is done on an ad hoc basis, where the teachers are aware of it or have the ability and time to do that, which I totally understand? One thought that came from the school students was that there could be a website that would be a one-stop-shop which tells students everything they need to know. I am interested to hear the witnesses' thoughts on that.

Professor Emer Smyth

It is a good point. There is variation between schools in the type of guidance provided. All schools appear to be squeezed for time regarding guidance. It is very much concentrated on sixth year and the CAO application procedures. There is not necessarily the time to go into other options, but some schools do so. Anecdotally, some schools near the Border do so. There is a case for broader access to guidance because a lot of decisions, or even soft decisions, are made well before sixth year when they get formal guidance.

While it would be useful to have a website, there are guidelines out there - the British Academy has an interesting information booklet - but I think that is probably not going to be completely user-friendly. Certainly, if a student is looking to apply to a UK university from Ireland, there is a UCAS tariff score, but a lot of the universities will have their own specifications, and they may say two As and a C for certain courses, say the University of Edinburgh, but that could be a different requirement for a different course in the same university or for different universities. It is very hard to have that tailored approach.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Okay, that is fair. What about northern students coming to the South?

Dr. Merike Darmody

What was quite clear from our research was that there was probably limited awareness, even among the guidance counsellors, on what the options are in Northern Ireland. What could be done is to offer students an informed choice and not particularly to focus on other European countries or other universities here in Ireland but rather introduce students to universities in Northern Ireland. When we spoke to the stakeholders, some of them mentioned that students had initially gone to Northern Ireland on an Erasmus exchange and were very pleasantly surprised, saying they did not really consider a degree in Northern Ireland, but now that they had gone and experienced it, they were really considering it.

Also, on what Professor Smyth was saying about guidance counsellors in this country, while websites are useful, students would benefit from one-to-one help from a guidance counsellor. You cannot ask all the questions from a website that you may need, and some students may need more assistance than others, such as those who are not familiar with the higher education context.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Okay, that is fair. One thing I have heard anecdotally is that, since Covid-19, there has been an increase in the number of students going from the South to the North. The witnesses highlighted the issues with the cost of living and housing.

From speaking to people in universities in the North, it has come up that housing there is cheaper and, as a result, more students from the Border counties travel there. Also mentioned was a nod to the maximum aggregate student number, MASN. Out of interest, how much of an impact has this had?

Professor Emer Smyth

We just worked on the patterns. While that may be the case for postgraduate level, it is not the case for undergraduate level. That aspect has been quite stable. In fact, there has been a longer term decline since about 2010 in the number of students going from Ireland to Northern Ireland. On the MASN, we should have mentioned this in the context of the previous point. There is little incentive for Northern Irish higher education institutions to encourage applicants from the South because they are capped on numbers. There are 1.7 applicants per place in Northern Ireland, so there is this big outflow of about 13,000 or 14,000 students annually to the rest of the UK. There is little incentive, therefore, for the institutions in the North to do outreach with schools in Ireland. To be fair, they do, but the MASN is a major issue for students from Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Of course. One of my party colleagues is now the Minister for the Economy and he has a particular interest in North-South mobility. He is also interested in what I thought was fascinating about the witnesses' presentation, namely, that so many students who go to Britain do not return. This has a major impact on the wider economy and this is important.

Foreign languages were also mentioned as being an issue. It is one and this was very clear from the school students as well. I also query how much of an impact was found in mathematics. I refer to there being bonus points here for the subject. Students in Northern Ireland, however, will not do mathematics for their A levels unless they want to study the subject or something related to it. Do the witnesses have any views on how this dichotomy could be squared up? I ask because it is of interest. In a recent report from the Irish Universities Association, this aspect was not dealt with. The report is extremely welcome, and I am not suggesting otherwise, but I would like to hear any thoughts the witnesses might have on this point.

Professor Emer Smyth

I think it is more that there was such a shortfall from the requirement to count for A levels. Mathematics was very much at the margin. This might be more of an issue with the change and the approach. It is something we would need to keep a weather eye on.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

That is great. I thank Professor Smyth.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Ó Cathasaigh.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank the witnesses for the opening statement and, indeed, for this report, which covers this issue very comprehensively. Questions were asked in last week's committee meeting about identifying the push and pull factors in this context. I refer in particular to those four A levels, for example, the timing of offers, etc. I do not wish to rehash that debate because it was well rehearsed last week.

I do, however, wish to interrogate the research a little in terms of what baseline we would expect there to be concerning student mobility. The south east would be a very bad example because we have a lot of student mobility that we might not welcome because a great number of courses that would like to see provided in the region are not provided. This means we have an outflow of young people. Northern Ireland, in a sense, because of the cap the witnesses spoke about, probably has a similar problem. Deputy Farrell talked about people leaving Northern Ireland and staying away. We have a similar problem in the south east. The Cathaoirleach will be well aware of this issue too. People go away for their education, meet their partners and very often it takes them a long time to get back to the south east, if they manage to get back at all. It is exactly the same for Northern Ireland.

Let us compare this situation with that of the Dublin population, where a full suite of courses is available in the area. When I went to college in Cork, I did not hear a lot of Dublin accents down there. I wonder what the outcome would be if we were to undertake that kind of comparison. Do we have a baseline in this regard? In all likelihood, any courses young people in Dublin would be interested in taking are probably available in the city. Do we see more substantial mobility in that population than we are talking about here? I hope the witnesses understand my question. I am probably not phrasing it correctly. What would we expect to see in terms of student mobility in this context?

Professor Emer Smyth

That is a very interesting question. I have not looked at student geographical mobility within Ireland for a while, so I am relying on older memories. Certainly, there would be much more movement within Ireland than between Ireland and Northern Ireland in terms of undergraduate placements. We find that some groups are more constrained in their choices in that more disadvantaged groups in Ireland will place more emphasis on being able to live at home and have good transport links. In a way, they might not be optimising their choices. I think, possibly-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I wonder what is driving it. Is it a sense that I will go to a certain city to have my college experience and that is why I decide to go away from home or is it that a course is not offered in my region and therefore I have to go elsewhere?

Professor Emer Smyth

It tends to be a complex interaction between those two factors. In terms of growing up in Ireland, when we asked young people how they ranked different factors, the course itself was the highest ranked, and this was followed by the perceived quality of the institution. Other factors then come in, such as where people can live, wanting to leave their area to have a better college experience, etc. The difference between mobility within Ireland, I suppose, and mobility between North and South is that we have those institutional constraints.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Yes.

Professor Emer Smyth

We still have constraints like geography, transport links and costs within Ireland. Additionally, then, there is that extra layer of higher education entry requirements and how fees and student supports are mapped. I think this is where the difference lies. I am not sure there is an ideal level of flow there, but it is certainly lower than it would have been in 2010.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

This was the question I wanted to ask. I refer to our sense of where the baseline should be if we were to remove the institutional barriers. I know, though, that it is probably very difficult to quantify.

Professor Emer Smyth

I think it is. I guess the aim would be to optimise student choice. If students were to choose something different, that would be fine, but there should not be these visible barriers to making such a choice.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It is really only a handful of students. The figures from 2020-21 show that 1,170 students from Ireland went to study in Northern Ireland and there has not been a great deal of change since then. Do we have figures for people travelling to other jurisdictions? How many Irish kids are going to England and Scotland? Do we have many students going to Europe?

Professor Emer Smyth

About 4,000 go to the rest of the UK, other than Northern Ireland. This figure has been pretty stable over time. The way data are reported for other countries, however, mean it is hard to get a handle on the numbers in this context. Irish students, though, would not account for big enough numbers to be able to track them and this is a gap in what we know in this regard.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Okay. In terms of students in Northern Ireland, many of them have to make the choice to go away, similar to the situation for students in the south east, because there is a cap on courses and there is not the same level of choice. Substantially more of them, however, go to the UK. Geographically, the Republic of Ireland is close and it would be possible for students to get a train as opposed to a boat or plane. The entry requirements, though, are simple if people are in the UK's UCAS system. They will not have to think about anything else. Do the witnesses have any data on what the other pull factors are in this context? Are we talking about the likes of opening bank accounts and securing accommodation, for example? Is there a good example of what the mix is in terms of the choices students are making? Students leaving Northern Ireland could go to either the UK or the Republic. What are the push and pull factors involved?

Dr. Merike Darmody

Other factors mentioned include it being a different experience. In some cases, students are seeking to experience the non-academic side of student life as well.

They may want to experience another culture or other ways of learning and studying. That cultural enrichment aspect is important as well. Identifying the push and pull factors is very complicated because they tend to vary from one individual to another. For some, access to Oxbridge is really important. It may be expected that they will follow a certain route because of their family background. For some other students, the situation can be quite different. In her research, Professor Diane Reay has looked at who chooses what kinds of universities and the idea that some institutions are not for people like me. Many different factors are at play here.

Professor Emer Smyth

To go back to our discussion of guidance earlier, Northern Irish schools are, on the whole, more oriented towards the UCAS system, although some schools will cover CAO applications, so that route is taken for granted. There are also broader cultural issues. We saw from recent ARINS research on attitudes North and South that a significant proportion of people from Ireland have not visited Northern Ireland and do not have any ties there. That can be an issue as well.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Is there any sense of a class-based system, a scourge we can be thankful to be more or less free from in the Republic of Ireland? Dr. Darmody spoke about Oxbridge and certain families having certain expectations. While I am not saying that there are not families in Ireland that have certain expectations about where their children are going to end up, I think the class system is more ingrained in an English context. I would not expect it to be as ingrained in Northern Ireland. I would expect things to be more egalitarian, as I hope we find here. However, I am not operating on the basis of any great research in saying that.

Professor Emer Smyth

There are two points to make there. Despite the massive expansion of higher education in Ireland, there are still very strong differences relating to social class and background, particularly as regards entry to elite professional courses like medicine, law and so on. Those of upper middle-class backgrounds are over-represented on these courses. While it may not be as apparent, when we look at educational inequality in Northern Ireland, that is, how much your parents' education influences your education, we find much stronger inequality in Northern Ireland than in Ireland. Part of the reason for this is selection resulting in patterns of early school leaving and another part may be the migration we talked about. Really highly qualified young people do not come back to the system so the pool of graduates is smaller.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That was very interesting.

An Cathaoirleach

Based on the witnesses' research, are guidance counsellors across secondary schools in Northern Ireland generally aware of entry requirements in the Republic of Ireland? Are they very aware of the kinds of third-level institutions and what is available in the Republic of Ireland compared with what is available in Northern Ireland?

Professor Emer Smyth

We did not conduct our own research on that matter so our views are very much based on stakeholder reports. These point to it being quite variable across schools. Some schools have stronger relationships with particular colleges or universities on either side of the Border. That is very much a regional issue. Across the two jurisdictions, we see dissatisfaction with the scale of guidance available to young people and the breadth of opportunities they are told about.

An Cathaoirleach

Is there much collaboration between the third-level institutions in Northern Ireland and secondary education in the Republic of Ireland? How can that and collaboration in the other direction be improved upon?

Professor Emer Smyth

There is certainly some. Some of the colleges have outreach workers positioned in the South who work with particular local schools. It could be improved by devoting more time to the dissemination of information. However, the MASN cap we have talked about is a real disincentive for colleges in the North. Another disincentive relates to the timing of offers. This was exacerbated in the wake of the Covid pandemic. Conditional offers issue from universities in Northern Ireland and the UK very early, prior to the exams. Exam results come out later and places are offered. A couple of stakeholders in the North said they were keeping places open for southern candidates who had provisionally accepted them but that those candidates did not take them up and that it was then too late to fill them. Timing is an issue and it is a more intractable issue as regards the system.

An Cathaoirleach

Professor Smyth spoke about financial supports. This is an issue for some families in the Republic of Ireland. I am very aware of that even though I believe there are very great opportunities and funding available through different methods, means and avenues to give people in the Republic of Ireland an opportunity to avail of third-level education. I have no doubt that, in the past two or three years, the cost of living will have created many and varied challenges for a lot of families. Did the witnesses learn any lessons during their research that might make higher education more accessible from a financial perspective? What is available in the North that is not available in the Republic and what is available in the Republic that is not available in the North? Were any lessons learned during the research?

Professor Emer Smyth

Decision-making in this area is really complex. Tuition fees or registration fees are such that, if you come from the North to the South, it is cheaper but accommodation costs are more expensive. In Northern Ireland, as opposed to the rest of the UK, there is still a maintenance grant as well as the student loan system but that grant is quite low. We have a student grant system in the South. Historically, when it was introduced in the early 1970s, it was pitched at the same level as unemployment payments but, over time, it has fallen behind, especially in light of the housing situation, which the Cathaoirleach has pointed out. Young people and their parents have to make really complex calculations. The fact that a chunk of people can and do live with their parents in both jurisdictions also limits their horizons as regards choice.

An Cathaoirleach

During the Covid pandemic and afterwards, there was a long delay in the leaving certificate results being issued. We are still trying to get the leaving certificate results out. The examinations body is trying to reduce the delays to give students more of an opportunity to see what is available to them, to fight for points, to get accommodation and everything like that. Were there similar challenges in the North?

Professor Emer Smyth

The difference is that, because students in the North had their conditional offers before their results, the process was quicker. They knew whether they had reached the conditions of their offers. There was then some clearing where there were places available. However, in the South, we had a delay in the issuing of leaving certificate results. That has since been pulled back a little but there is still a gap. If you are from the North, have a place in the bank early on and know that you are more than likely to get the grades, you can plan and get your accommodation lined up. If you are hanging on for a place in Dublin, you will have to wait until September or late August and then scramble for a place. As I have said, given how different the systems are, I do not know how that could be solved. It is quite intractable.

An Cathaoirleach

To go back to guidance counsellors, the witnesses will know this is a big issue. During the recession in 2010 and 2011, when there were significant cutbacks, guidance counselling was one of the services that was slashed. It has not come back to where it should be. I was listening to a debate on one of our national radio stations last week. Those involved were talking about the importance of guidance counsellors but also about the lack of them and how they had to double-job and hold other roles in the school.

I have been chatting to secondary school teachers since then. There is more of a need for guidance counsellors now than ever before. There are many more opportunities out there and many more avenues for going to college. There are many more ways and means of achieving one's goals in the context of taking various avenues if one does not have the results at the start. Is that an issue in Northern Ireland? Did the availability of guidance counsellors, North and South, form part of the research? Are there ways we could improve down here in terms of guidance counsellors?

Professor Emer Smyth

We did not look at that as specifically as we might have. There has been a report on guidance in Northern Ireland. It is kind of split. They have career teachers at the school level, but then they have the Careers Service that comes in to school for one or two interventions.

Again, the impression from the published policy documents is that it is seen as less than adequate. Many young people, North and South, getting to sixth year have already made decisions about subjects or subject levels that have cut off opportunities for them. That area needs to be looked at more.

The Chair is right about there being more complex decisions. In Ireland, guidance counsellors also have a role in personal counselling, and they are split between that and the advice function. With more complex mental health needs emerging among young people, especially post pandemic, they are often pulled between the two functions. I hope that makes sense.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes. Does Deputy Ó Cathasaigh have any further questions before I wrap up?

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

No, I am good.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the witnesses for coming before us. The discussion has been very informative and beneficial. I thank both witnesses very much for their opening statements and for their replies to the questions that we put to them. Is it agreed that we suspend for a few minutes before our second sessions? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 11.42 a.m. and resumed at 12.13 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

On behalf of the committee, I welcome from the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Mr. Ian McKenna, principal officer, and Ms Anita Fitzgerald, assistant principal officer; from the Higher Education Authority, Ms Sheena Duffy, head of international, communications, and equality, diversity and inclusion; and from SOLAS, Mr. Andrew Brownlee, CEO. The witnesses are here to brief us on the implementation of the key recommendations outlined in the joint committee's report entitled North South Student Enrolment in Tertiary Education.

The format is that I will invite Mr. McKenna, Ms Duffy and Mr. Brownlee to each make a brief opening statement of five minutes.

Mr. Ian McKenna

The Department is grateful to take this opportunity to update the Chair and members on the progress that has been made on the implementation of the recommendations outlined of this committee's report on North-South mobility in tertiary education.

As members will be aware, in October 2022, the Minister provided a detailed response to these important recommendations. A further update was provided in February 2023. Drawing on the Minister's opening statement in February of 2022, a detailed response across each of the recommendations has been sent to the clerk to the committee and I trust that this has been made available to members.

The Department would like to highlight some specific issues across three key areas, namely, A-level equivalencies; bilateral engagement between the Institute of Guidance Counsellors, IGC, here and the Northern Ireland Schools and Colleges Careers Association, NISCCA; and the launch of the research co-centres.

While the question of admissions policy is a matter for each university, as an autonomous institution, the Minister has been anxious for some time that progress be made on the question of equivalency regarding A-levels. In mid-2023, this question was taken forward by Universities Ireland, which is a representative body of presidents and vice-chancellors on the island of Ireland. A working group, chaired by Professor Pól Ó Dochartaigh, deputy president and registrar of the University of Galway, undertook a detailed review of these issues and made a series of recommendations for adoption by the academic council of each university. The principal recommendation has effectively removed the need for four A-levels to achieve 600 CAO points. This will allow an A-level student, with three A-levels and an advanced subsidiary, AS, qualification, or an extended project, to achieve a maximum of 600 points. The working group recommendations have been adopted for implementation for the 2024 intake by a number of universities while the remaining institutions will implement this for the 2025 cohort. This will be monitored over the next few years, and it will be interesting to see the impact of this adjustment on the number of A-level students coming to Irish universities.

This leads to the next which the Department would like to address. It is of course important that this is communicated very clearly to students in Northern Ireland. Following its presentation to the committee in February 2023, the Department engaged with the Institute of Guidance Counsellors in Ireland with a view to establishing the nature of bilateral engagement with its counterpart in Northern Ireland. While the president of the IGC was confident that Irish schools along the Border were very au fait with the options in universities like Ulster University and Queen's University, he acknowledged that the connections could be improved.

The most recent report that we have got from the ICG is very welcome. It gives an indication of the increased engagement on a North-South basis. The Minister will welcome the proposal to establish a joint working group of the NISCCA, which is the Northern Ireland equivalent in career guidance, and IGC members who will meet regularly and pass on their deliberations across both executives, developing appropriate material for sharing with leaving certificate and A-level students.

Finally, the Department would like to highlight the recent establishment of the research co-centres. As members will be aware, following the British-Irish Intergovernmental Council last November, the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, and the Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology, Ms Michelle Donelan, and the Permanent Secretary of Northern Ireland's Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, Ms Katrina Godfrey, announced a €70 million project in joint funding to create two research centres. The funding will bring together academics, industry and policymakers across Irish Government, UK Government and Northern Ireland Government Departments to collaborate on common challenges such as food sustainability and climate change. All in all 132 researchers will work together on a North-South and an east-west basis. Both of the co-centres will be funded over six years, with up to €40 million coming from the Science Foundation Ireland and the balance coming from the UK and Northern Ireland. This complements the existing North-South research programme but the inclusion of research institutions from England will bring added research expertise to the co-centres.

These exemplars of North-South collaboration reflect not just a commitment by the Minister to act on the recommendations of the committee's report but they also speak to one of the pillars in Global Citizens 2030, Ireland's international and talent and innovation strategy. The strategy is built around six pillars but pillar 5 is of most relevance. It aims to ensure that education and research contribute to mutual understanding and seamless collaboration across the tertiary system, with purposeful collaborations in education and research underpinning enhanced co-operation on a North-South and east-west basis. The support of this committee to realise this objective is also very important.

The Department appreciates the opportunity to address the committee and I look forward to our discussions.

Ms Sheena Duffy

My colleagues and I are pleased to assist the committee in consideration of topics referred to in its letter of 2 February. I will comment on the progress by the HEA to address a number of the recommendations contained in the committee’s report. As stated by my colleague, Dr. Vivienne Patterson, last year, the Higher Education Authority Act 2022 includes an objective on the promotion of co-operation and collaboration with regard to higher education including with regard to the provision of student places and the enrolment of students in Northern Ireland, as well as the promotion of co-operation between designated institutions of higher education and institutions of higher education in Northern Ireland. There is a breadth of activities that underpin our co-operation with Northern Ireland, including our data collection in relation to Northern Ireland student enrolment in higher education in Ireland. The HEA, through its student record system, collects student enrolment and graduate data from its higher education institutions on an annual basis. This data includes their domiciliary of origin and therefore the enrolment data records of students from Northern Ireland enrolled in HEA-designated higher education institutions is captured in the system. In 2022-23 there was a flow of 1,660 Northern Ireland students to Irish higher education institutions. By mode of study, 59% were full-time students and 33% were part-time students, while 8% were remote. The overall numbers enrolled have remained relatively steady over the past five years. The majority of Northern Ireland students studying in Ireland are undergraduate at 76% and are predominantly studying business studies, followed by health and welfare and then arts and humanities. In the academic year 2022-23, 79% of Northern Ireland new entrants entering Irish higher education institutions enrolled in Dundalk IT, University of Galway, Trinity College and UCD. If Atlantic Technological University is included, the figure is 87%.

The HEA manages a number of funding initiatives for the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. These initiatives either partly or fully promote cross-Border activity in tertiary education and research with an aim of increasing student enrolments and industry collaboration. Supported by funding provided of €250,000 by the HEA in 2018, the cross-border FEHE partnership was established involving Ulster University, Letterkenny ATU, North West Regional College and Donegal Education and Training Board. This funding contributed to the development of a co-ordinated academic plan that exploits opportunities for collaboration and study pathways for students in the region and the development of a regional FEHE prospectus. With the assistance of funding provided by the HEA from the TU transformation fund, ATU has supported, among other activities, collaboration with NWRC to deliver a 15-week bridging course in electric vehicle programmes across Donegal ETB, NWRC and ATU Donegal. This involves the sharing of facilities and staff to reskill mechanics for electrical vehicles, developing a pathway from level 6 to level 7 in EV technology. It also supported the development of a proposal to the shared island unit to deliver on a skills escalator and research centre that would support upskilling and reskilling of individuals and support innovative enterprises in the region and the establishment of a cross-border working group.

HEA landscape funding in 2019 provided €500,000 for the smart industry north-west city region. This funding contributed to providing clear, cross-border smart industry learning pathways for student learners from foundation level and the establishment of smart industry research studentships. In addition, HEA performance funding in 2019 awarded to Letterkenny Institute of Technology, now ATU, supported a project aimed to support high value employment opportunities and data science support for industry in the region, particularly in ICT and fintech. Research connections with regional industry and enterprise were developed through this project, which established knowledge transfer connections with the fintech industry in the north-west region by providing data science and research support to enterprises through a cross-Border data science research centre, AI NoW.

Supported by funding provided by the HEA, DkIT is working with FE and industrial partners to identify opportunities and pathways towards achieving sustainable objectives and talent retention, facilitating the growth of industry within the north-east Leinster-south Ulster region by increasing the number of highly qualified graduates who are available to both attract multinational organisations to the region and satisfy the demand of local organisations.

In 2021, the shared island unit allocated €40 million to the North-South research programme, NSRP, over five years, which is being delivered by the HEA on behalf of the Department. Following a very successful first call in 2021, which received 367 eligible applications, 62 projects were funded across three strands to the value of €37.28 million, with project implementation having started in September 2022. Projects are strengthening links between higher education institutions, research communities and researchers across the island of Ireland by delivering all-island approaches to research and innovation through a lens nuanced by the objectives of the Good Friday Agreement, sustainable development goals, the national development plan to 2040, and the strategic development of research and higher education.

Over a period of four years, strand 2 department-to-department projects focusing on the establishment of emerging hubs of excellence will support 35 PhD students, while 18 PhD students will be linked to strand 3 institution-to-institution projects, contributing to building partnerships of scale. Furthermore, smaller strand 1 researcher-to-researcher projects with a maximum two-year duration will include 14 masters students and three PhD students. In addition to the collaboration between higher education institutions, all NSRP projects were encouraged to establish links with relevant third-party collaborators such as NGOs and charities, hospitals, SMEs, State agencies, and other public institutions.

As I am conscious that I have gone over time, in summary I will address two of the other recommendations brought forward by the committee. The committee recommended the provision of sustainable funding levels for higher education. The HEA is working in partnership with the Department. The funding for 2023 and 2024 increases the future allocation funding to €105.2 million. It will hopefully give institutions the bandwidth to engage further in North-South collaboration.

Finally, on the recommendation on additional student accommodation, the HEA is assisting the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science in seeking proposals from the sector for a supply of student accommodation. A key objective of these projects will be to provide affordable accommodation.

The HEA’s legislation provides opportunities for further collaboration with the tertiary education sector in Northern Ireland. The HEA looks forward to enhancing our collaboration through a range of initiatives, as discussed.

We look forward to your questions and a discussion on these matters with the committee today.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

On behalf of SOLAS, I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak with it today and provide an update on implementation of recommendations outlined in the report entitled “North South Student Enrolment in Tertiary Education”. SOLAS is the State agency responsible for further education and training, FET, in Ireland. Our vision is to power the potential of individuals, communities and enterprise through lifelong learning and workforce transformation. In recent years we have led an ambitious FET strategy transforming learning and driven change across the FET system to provide easier access, simplified pathways, a consistent learner experience and a stronger identity. This has led to unprecedented growth and demand for FET, with the learner base growing by some 17% from 2022 to 2023. Indeed, we know that one in ten adults in Ireland, around 423,000 people, were engaged in apprenticeships, our construction skills schemes or other FET activity last year. Our message has been strong and consistent: FET is for everyone, regardless of your level of formal education. It is available in every community in Ireland and will offer you a valuable and recognised pathway to take you as far as you want to go.

Recommendations contained in the joint committee report specifically tasked the HEA and SOLAS with the promotion of cross-Border student enrolment. Since we last briefed the committee in February 2023, we have progressed significant collaborations with partners in Northern Ireland to support the growth of FET and to encourage a more seamless cross-Border flow of students.

Developments include engagement with the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland to discuss further education, sharing learning from our approaches and exploring opportunities to develop stronger links between both systems and the development of a new network that brings together further education providers both North and South with six regional colleges in Northern Ireland along with the education and training boards. A meeting of the network took place in Enniskillen last November at South West College, with a follow-up conference scheduled for March. SOLAS and the ETBs are also part of the College Alliance. This is a network that brings together further education leaders in Ireland, Wales, Scotland, England and Northern Ireland to share ideas and good practice. We are also working with South West College and North West Regional College in Northern Ireland to support us to increase short-term capacity for the delivery of phase 2 craft apprenticeship training. The advanced manufacturing pathways schools project is a cross-Border initiative led by Louth and Meath ETB with South West College. The initiative aims to encourage school students to consider careers in manufacturing and engineering via FET and apprenticeships.

It also gives teachers the opportunity for upskilling in key areas of advanced manufacturing technologies with a network of support and collaboration across schools. Their students also gain access to learning about new technological advancements.

We are progressing the first all-island apprenticeship for accounting technologists. This is based on a new occupational need identified by the professional body ATI, working with Open University as a co-ordinating provider in the North and the Technological University of the Shannon in the South. There is also a similar development between Southern Regional College and Louth and Meath ETB on a new apprenticeship on robotics and automation.

A range of skills initiatives have also been progressed by the north-west regional tertiary cluster as was mentioned by my colleague, Ms Duffy, involving Donegal ETB, North West Regional College, Atlantic Technological University and Ulster University, with recent work including a focus on electric vehicles. There is also potential for greater cross-Border links around community education. SOLAS supports Aontas, the adult learning organisation which works on an all-island basis, which published the first Northern Ireland community education census in September 2023. This research details the immense contribution and impact adult education has on communities, individuals and societies but also highlights some of the challenges that the sector is facing. SOLAS is committed to supporting collaborative initiatives like these that provide important opportunities to share best practice, build knowledge and enhance partnership links between North and South.

Incredible strides have been made in tertiary education development to provide more accessible pathways from further education to higher education. SOLAS and the HEA co-developed a range of programmes that support a learner to commence a course in an ETB and continue in an HEI to obtain a degree. Twenty-three courses commenced in September across 11 locations and five fields of provision. There is real potential to explore this model further from a cross-Border perspective.

The recent announcement by the Government of €800 million for shared island investment priorities includes funding for pilot programmes focused on educational underachievement. Initiatives like these are vital to help strengthen the links between North and South, increasing collaboration, sharing innovation and creating additional pathways and opportunities for learners. The developments noted above offer a platform to develop proposals in response to the fund. SOLAS will support ETBs in working with regional colleges in Northern Ireland to move this forward. In summary, we have made important progress in developing and building partnerships between North and South and that should provide a solid foundation for increasing student enrolments in the future. At the moment there are about 500 students or apprenticeships across either the FET or apprenticeship in Ireland at the moment. I hope that has provided a brief update in recent developments in North-South collaboration around FET. I thank the committee for their time today and look forward to further discussion on this matter.

An Cathaoirleach

Our first member today is Deputy Mairéad Farrell.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I thank the Chair and the witnesses for coming in front of the committee. Obviously this is something we have been looking at for some time and it is important to acknowledge that we are seeing changes in relation to qualifying criteria for students from the North coming to the South. That is welcome and it is positive that the witnesses have had a major focus in relation to this. My party colleague, Conor Murphy, has recently been appointed Minister for the Economy and as it is something he also wants to focus on, it is really good that there is so much concentration on it.

I will start with Mr. Brownlee regarding the apprenticeship aspect. I note he said he wants to build stronger links between both systems, share ideas and best practice and a positive that we can see from this is there can be the sharing of ideas and best practice. What are the differences at the moment between curriculums North and South for craft apprentices in particular and how much interaction is there between the two? How close are they to each other? How often are they updated in the North in comparison to the South, if he is aware of that? I had a recent parliamentary question which showed that it has been quite a bit of time since the curriculum has been updated in the South. I am interested in that and building on those links.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

I thank the Deputy. The curriculums across both systems are similar but are not identical. The Deputy might have heard reference in the opening statement to the fact that we have two Northern Ireland colleges that are going to deliver some phase 2 craft apprenticeship training. As we are the co-ordinators and providers, we check that the learning is aligned with our own curriculum and we check that the assessment process can be aligned as well. The curriculum is directly comparable, just not identical, but it is close enough that we are satisfied they can deliver phase 2 craft apprenticeship training to help us address backlogs and increase capacity.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

In respect of phase 2, two things arise. Are specific craft apprenticeships going to the North in terms of the phase 2 capacity? Mr. Brownlee mentioned short-term capacity for phase 2 to deal with the backlog. Is that something he can envisage as being longer term in the sense of that collaboration? Obviously if there is a backlog now, the concern is that were that capacity to be removed for phase 2, it may come back. Also, were a similar situation to happen in the North, could they use the South?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

I think so. The current arrangements are around carpentry and joinery and electrical. Like a lot of these things, getting it off the ground is the hard part. Once you have got proof of concept and proof that the Northern Ireland colleges have the capability, understanding, curriculum, resources and the workshop space to be able to do this, I do not see any reason why it could not continue to be offered. As it is an emergency response to eliminate that need for anyone to wait more than six months for craft apprenticeship training, we are very grateful to our colleagues in the regional colleges. As we now have a model agreed and a model that is due to be operational in April of this year, I do not see any reason they could not continue to play a part in meeting craft apprenticeship capacity requirements moving forward. Maybe we need to start thinking of those requirements on an all-island basis to make sure that we maximise the use of facilities and our capacities across the entire island.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I thank Mr. Brownlee. Are there any barriers for that at the moment? Let us take the case where you are in Donegal and are doing your apprenticeship in Derry. This committee is naturally trying to learn as much as possible at the moment and to think of help and solutions as well. Are there any barriers that Mr. Brownlee can see at the moment?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

I actually see the opposite. We have these facilities with the regional colleges. Sometimes apprentices can be called all over the country for phase 2 of training. So having these facilities within reach of people who live in Donegal is a massive advantage, rather than calling them to Kerry or Dublin or Cork. We try to avoid that as far as possible. When you look at it on an all-island basis, for people living in Donegal the North is far more accessible to them than coming down to certain parts of the South. Consequently, I can see no barriers. We have registered apprentices with Northern Ireland addresses. I think there are 110 currently. If the work is there and if there is an employer there to take them on, we allow and facilitate that. It works also vice versa, in that the training is accessible and there is less of an accommodation crisis there if we choose to move to the locality. I see only an upside at the moment. We need to tread carefully, as we have a very skilled instructor work force in Ireland working across the ETBs and across the HEIs. They are doing an incredible job and really have been ramping up capacity considerably since 2019. They understand this is an additional asset that can be used to help us to get to where we need to be by the end of the year.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I would like to see as much North-South mobility as possible and breaking down barriers in that sense as well.

In relation to the HEA opening statement, one thing that stood out to me and which I thought was quite interesting was that by mode of study, 59% were full-time students and 33% were part-time but 8% were remote students. That is quite fascinating because you would think that if I was working remotely, it would not matter where I was studying; I would just study wherever the course was that I would like to do.

What does the Higher Education Authority, HEA, see as the barriers to that? Is it, perhaps, that people do not look further?

Ms Sheena Duffy

Is that for the remote learning?

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Yes. It is such a low figure.

Ms Sheena Duffy

Many of the campuses have returned to on campus education, so if one is pursuing a full-time programme, there are not as many remote opportunities as there would have been during the Covid-19 period. By and large, students will be on campus so will have to be living adjacent to the campus. From a mobility point of view, it would be nice to be able to offer some sort of blended opportunities where people can perhaps spend some time on a campus and also engage remotely. That is something we tried to do with the Erasmus programme. It is something we could probably look at in a mobility programme going forward, in that there could be blended opportunities for people so they could perhaps stay at home but also avail of a short mobility placement.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

That is very interesting. The more we can do on that, the better.

The Department and the co-centred programme are quite interesting. It is good to see. I have met with different researchers who work collaboratively North and South in different universities and they have talked of the full benefits of doing that research in the longer term. Those co-centres are a recent thing. They are new and everything has a teething stage and so on, but how is the Department finding that? What is the type of feedback it is receiving on those co-centres at this point?

Mr. Ian McKenna

My understanding is that the response to the proposals that came in and were evaluated is very positive. They were of a very high quality. One of the big selling points with all of this is that it allows us to identify areas where Ireland has particular strengths. When I talk about Ireland, I am looking at the representation of the island and bringing that capacity together to start addressing those key areas like climate change and food security. The fact we are bringing the wider UK into this process helps us because of its research capacity. It allows us to tap into some of the expertise there. All in all, it is a very positive outcome. They will start their operations this year and will very much start to ramp up their operations. There is substantial money behind it, so that will aid the entire process.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

That is good. I will finish on a question on accommodation. It is obviously something that keeps coming up for students from the North and their ability to come to the South, together with a whole range of other issues. This is something that is coming up more. When I spoke to a university in the North, it said a reason it saw more students coming to that university was that it was cheaper to live in the North. There are two things I would like to ask on that. On the strategy for student accommodation, does the Department have a date as to when that would be published? I know there has been talk about that for some time. The Department’s opening statement, states that:

The refurbishment of vacant properties for student accommodation will have a significant impact in the regions and will further our balanced regional development agenda.

Refurbishment of vacant commercial property will also be considered in addition to repurposing vacant properties on HEI land.

The reason I am interested in that is that I have contacted many of the universities. Not all of them have come back to me but many of the universities, after that announcement had been made, came back to say they did not have vacant buildings available for student accommodation purposes. I raised that with the Minister at the time and I have put in a freedom of information, FOI, request. It does not seem there has been that sort of correspondence with the universities on that. On commercial property, is that something that is definite or is it something that could be looked at?

On the technological universities, TUs, the Department’s opening statement states that funding of € 1 million was approved in November 2022 to assist the TUs in developing a student accommodation programme. Programmes do not house people, unfortunately. I understand the Department has to have assessments and all of that kind of thing done. There has been an understanding, a thought process or a belief, that there would be the ability at some point for TUs to borrow. My understanding is that is not something that is currently being progressed or considered and that a move towards public private partnerships will be looked at, especially given the fact there was an announcement on funding for student accommodation in the budget. I am aware of the €400 million from the European Investment Bank, EIB, and all of that but that involves borrowing and TUs cannot borrow. What exactly is the plan there? Is it a situation where that €400 million is good where we have a programme? We are doing an assessment, which I think is fantastic, but the concern for parents who are looking to send their children to the Atlantic Technological University, ATU, in Letterkenny is around what the courses their children want to do will mean for them for next year.

An Cathaoirleach

I am worried that question is a little bit outside of the scope of what we are-----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

The Department mentioned this a lot-----

An Cathaoirleach

I understand, Deputy, but I do not expect the Department to have the full reply-----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

If the Department does not have every response-----

An Cathaoirleach

If the Department does not have all of the information, perhaps it might come back to the Deputy later with it.

Mr. Ian McKenna

I do not have the full reply other than what is in my statement but I will take what the Deputy said away and will get in touch with my colleagues who are dealing with the accommodation. We will come back to the Deputy with this information.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I have questions with the Minister this evening. As reference was made to this in the statement, I thought I would ask about it. If Mr. McKenna could back with some information, that would be fantastic and I thank him.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy and Mr. McKenna. I call Senator Flynn.

Senator Eileen Flynn

I thank the Cathaoirleach. All of our witnesses are very welcome to the committee this afternoon. I would disagree with the comments of our witnesses that they do not see any obstacles for young people in Donegal. I live in Ardara in Donegal. In the last week, for example, and it may be somewhat off-topic, a young woman from Donegal was on placement in St. Catherine's vocational school in Killybegs. She had to think about her accommodation and the costs of her being there for a few days. She is a fifth-year student.

Some people in places such as Glenties, Killybegs and Ardara would not have those opportunities because it is two hours away from the North. It takes me three hours to get to Belfast or Dublin and it takes nearly two hours to get to Derry. When we are talking about obstacles for young people in places such as Donegal, transport is one of them. There is also the cost of education, which is another one for young people in rural communities such as in Donegal. Unfortunately, young people in Ardara do not have the same opportunities young people in Letterkenny would have or those who are close to the Border. There are issues, such as accommodation, transport and cost, which are very real for those young people of Donegal.

That is also the case for apprenticeships. Much of the time there is only so much available for young people in Donegal in terms of placements and apprenticeships because, economically, the county would be not as good as some other counties. We could have a committee meeting alone on the minimum wage for young people in rural Donegal. I know it is the same in other rural parts of Ireland. These comments are not intended to dismiss or put down the points made by our witnesses. We are not ambitious enough for young people in rural Ireland, such as in Glenties, Ardara and Killybegs. I see young people with much fewer opportunities, including some working-class young people. Sometimes, we have this idea in our heads that rural people are rich.

I will move on to my questions around the meeting in Enniskillen which Mr. Brownlee spoke about. I welcome that meeting and the changes around networking for the South West Regional College. A meeting is scheduled for March. Perhaps SOLAS could outline the proposed agenda around that meeting.

I think college connect is in four universities and I have done a lot of work with it through my work in the National Traveller Women's Forum over recent years. Is that something we could look at? It is a brilliant project to have. It is funded by the HEA. I have welcomed that because it has been a lifesaver for many young people here in the Republic. Could we do something similar that brings the opportunity of college connect to the North so we have that bridge where we can come together? That is only an idea. From listening to the opening statements, we have done some really good work North-South to try to give young people the best opportunities we can, but an awful lot more needs to be done. It is the idea of bridging the gap and people coming together. How doable would it be? I believe it would be extremely doable to bring young people together and have those opportunities for our young people. That is my input to today's committee.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

First of all, can I clarify what I was trying to say? I totally agree with the Senator around access to education and facilities. I was trying to say there is no additional barrier to delivering apprenticeship training in comparison with here, but I totally get that if a person lives in Glenties, they have a massive challenge to get over to Enniskillen or Derry to access that. Apprenticeship is only a bit of what we do. It is a very important bit of what we do, but there are 400,000 other people who engage in further education or community education. Donegal is one of our lead ETBs in providing access in the smallest, most rural communities to community education or pathways into education. I hope Donegal ETB is visible where the Senator lives and she can see that, but if it is not then it is definitely something we focus on and understand. We accept the barriers around childcare and access to transport and even access to technology for online learning and things like that. We are totally on the same page with that.

Senator Eileen Flynn

Just so I can clarify as well, over the past four years I have built up a great relationship with Donegal ETB and it is very visible. Again though, we need to put measures in place for young people to have the equality of opportunity to be successful in going on to apprenticeship courses. I wanted to be really clear on that. Donegal ETB is doing absolutely brilliantly for higher and further education. I am very passionate about all the ETBs. For people from the Traveller community and other ethnic minority groups, it can genuinely be a lifeline in getting a further education.

One more question has come to my mind. It is on people from the Traveller community participating in courses in the North and how that would be supported. That is one more question and it does not need to be answered now. A reply via email would be absolutely fine.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

The Senator asked me about the agenda for the joint meeting. I saw that last week. I am wracking my brain. I think one of the items for discussion is the shared island fund of €800 million and trying to get a joint proposal together on that. There is talk about those joint apprenticeship programmes, which are very interesting. Again, if we get that model up and running, there is no reason that cannot be mainstreamed throughout. There is also work on joint staff development so the lecturers in the Northern Ireland colleges and the lecturers or teachers or instructors in the ETBs come together to upskill in new technologies, AI and things like that. That is what I remember, but I can clarify what is on the agenda.

On support for the Traveller community to access education, we do a lot here and we fund community groups through our community education programme through initiatives like the reach fund. It is an interesting question about the cross-Border aspect to that. I cannot claim we have done anything, but it would certainly be worth looking at whether we could extend it. We try to ensure community education is planned on an all-island basis, so we will look into that, if that is okay.

Ms Sheena Duffy

I would be happy to look at it from a higher education perspective as well and building on some of the initiatives the Senator mentioned and how we could extend that across. I will bring that back internally as well and we will come back to the Senator.

Mr. Ian McKenna

It is also important to note there is a new EU programme, PEACEPLUS, coming down the tracks. That is going to open things up, especially for the situation the Senator described about the broader framework or supports that can enable people from marginalised groups or people with low participation to improve their prospects, especially with respect to skills and so on. It is going to be a while. I think they hope to launch the call later in March and it will be September before there is any conclusion, so I do not mean it is a slow burner but it will be towards the tail end of this year before we start seeing the projects that emerge from that. We have encouraged that education and training providers North and South would participate and work jointly together to enable them to address some of those issues.

Senator Eileen Flynn

What about college connects? Does anyone have a view on that?

Ms Sheena Duffy

I will look into it internally and come back to the Senator.

Senator Eileen Flynn

Okay. I thank Ms Duffy.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank our guests for coming before the committee. I wish to begin with Mr. Brownlee. His statement refers to the unprecedented growth in further education and training in Ireland, in the South. Is there a similar growth in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

No. I believe it has actually been the opposite over recent years. There has been a decline in demand for further education. I think that was reversed in the past year or two, so it has kind of flattened out but it is relatively stagnant. As such, it has not been replicated there. There is a lot of concern in Northern Ireland, similar to ourselves, that people do not just default to going to university at the age of 17 or 18 because there are other pathways and choices. There is a big role for further education in adult education, upskilling and reskilling to meet the needs of the future world of work. I do not believe the trend is replicated, but it is testimony to the work we have been doing to try to raise the profile.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Is there any reason we do not see the trend replicated in Northern Ireland or is it simply that credit is deserved in the South because of the efforts we have made to expand it?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

There are a whole range of reasons. I do not want to speak for the Northern Ireland Executive, but funding has been a challenge and obviously there has been a political vacuum over the past couple of years. There are funding models based on a rigid full-time provision model. I think that is being looked at as we speak. The history of further education and training in Ireland has been that it has grown up from VECs, grown up from FÁS and grown up at a community level. so there are further education facilities in pretty much every village throughout the country. Northern Ireland has moved to a regional college model where there are multiple campuses, but they are concentrated in the major urban centres, so our growth has been more rural and organic.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Yes. If we are trying to improve cross-Border co-operation in the area of further education and training, what political steps should Government or the Oireachtas take to try to facilitate that?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

Funding is a big part of it and cross-Border funding. Mr. McKenna talked about PEACEPLUS and we talked about the shared island investment fund. I suggest incentivisation to work in partnership with the North. We all have a million things to do daily and weekly, but an actual incentive to build those networks could be considered.

We are already seeing the fruits of that labour. There are now joint apprenticeship programmes North and South. Northern Ireland colleges are delivering craft apprenticeship training for us to address the backlogs. Once the networks are built, it is then just about making sure there is investment behind them to make things happen.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Is there any issue in respect of co-operation between the two political jurisdictions on the island? Is there any benefit in trying to get the North-South Ministerial Council to expressly deal with third-level education? Is that something that is the ambition of the Government?

Mr. Ian McKenna

I am conscious of not straying into the area of developing policy, or anything of that nature, at this point. There is an openness about looking at options such as those mentioned by the Deputy. There are pluses and minuses to it. In some respects, it would formalise much of the collaboration already taking place. It is putting a formal structure in place such as already exists within the education sector. There is an education sectoral ministerial council, contingent on which is Ministers meeting twice every year on a cross-Border basis. The Minister, Deputy Harris, has already reached out to his counterpart in the Northern Ireland Department for the Economy, Conor Murphy, and had a conversation. It is something where there is a willingness on both sides to look at how we can progress the collaboration. Whether it comes through the North-South Ministerial Council or is allowed to grow as it has done thus far remains to be seen. Putting it in a formal structure is replicating much of the positive work that has already happened on a bilateral basis. For Ms Fitzgerald and me, reaching out to colleagues in the Department for the Economy is second nature at this stage. There is very strong collaboration in-----

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

That is very interesting. Maybe formalising that could politicise and undermine it to a certain extent. Mr. McKenna is saying that, notwithstanding the absence of formal structures within the North-South Ministerial Council, there is ongoing collaboration and co-operation.

Mr. Ian McKenna

There is. To speak to what Mr. Brownlee said, when money is put behind certain projects, it stimulates that interest. Maybe the issue is around the sustainability of that and making sure it carries forward. PEACEPLUS, for example, is causing institutions North and South to sit down together, so to speak, to ask what they can do on a cross-Border basis. That is happening already.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Does Ms Duffy have any views on that from a HEA perspective?

Ms Sheena Duffy

I echo what my colleagues said. We have seen that there is interest. Even looking at the North-South research projects, we had 367 eligible applications but funding was available for only 62 of those. The interest is there. If we could find some additional funding, we could certainly put together joint programmes. At present, under the Erasmus scheme, we cannot send students to Northern Ireland without it being quite expensive. I look forward to the proposal within the international strategy for mobility programme. These things have to be two way. We cannot just have flows going one way.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

That appears to be what is currently happening to a certain extent. We are not getting the students from Northern Ireland we did in previous decades.

Ms Sheena Duffy

We could encourage students to come here. We know anecdotally that if people come on a mobility placement, many of them could avail of a postgraduate placement. It is about people having exposure to both education systems. That then broadens their opportunities.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

One of the factors that appears to deter students from Northern Ireland from applying to third-level institutions in Ireland is the delay in the announcement of leaving certificate results and the CAO process. Is that a significant factor in deterring students from Northern Ireland?

Ms Sheena Duffy

That is out of my area of expertise, but from the previous discussion the committee had with higher education institutions, it seems to be a deterrent. If somebody has a UCAS offer in his or her hand, that person may be happy to avail of it-----

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

It is more attractive to have an offer that has been made already. Does anybody else have a view on that?

Mr. Ian McKenna

Last year, the Minister for Education brought the date forward. We are waiting to see what the outcome of that is for this year. Looking at what happened with the publication of leaving certificate results a few years ago, there are layers of appeal structures and so on in place. Many of those structures did not exist five or six years ago but they now do. They have created substantial equity and confidence within the system. To start to unravel that to beat a deadline could be counterproductive. It is one of those issues where there is a plus and minus for it.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

The real difference between the two systems is that in Northern Ireland a student will get a conditional acceptance. No matter how much we expedite the process in respect of the CAO and leaving certificate results, we will never be able to get it back to before June.

Mr. Ian McKenna

Exactly. Every UCAS applicant has the conditional offer in his or her back pocket.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Do applicants get that early in the year?

Mr. Ian McKenna

They do. It is very soon after students apply within the UCAS system. Even for Irish students who apply, teachers offer predicted grades, which are assessed by the institution in question. Students then get an offer fairly soon, at around the middle to the end of June. They know straight away that if they get their results, they will be home and dry.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank everyone.

An Cathaoirleach

One of my questions, around leaving cert results and the time period, has been answered. Mr. Brownlee mentioned his engagement with the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland, which is very much welcome. We had a study trip to Scotland last week, when I raised the issue of apprenticeships. Scotland is having very similar challenges in encouraging people to go into apprenticeship education. Does Mr. Brownlee believe, in the context of his engagement with the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland, and the Minister, Deputy Harris, has made huge strides on apprenticeships here, that a project between Northern Ireland and southern Ireland could be done to encourage more students to go into apprenticeships?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

I think so. A few things are happening. I mentioned the work done by Louth and Meath ETB and the Southern Regional College around advanced manufacturing and engineering. That is a skills-based project. The idea is that schoolkids are offered taster programmes of apprenticeships or manufacturing skills training that it is hoped will spark their interest. As far as I know, that project covers 16 schools in counties Louth and Meath. It was widened to include four schools in Belfast last year and will move to ten schools next year. There is real potential to ramp that up and have it as a mainstream apprenticeship taster programme, which could work across the North and South. There is probably an existing structure between the ETB and the regional college. Maybe if the two Departments also gave it a little support, we could look at mainstream pathways to apprenticeship or a technical education programme.

An Cathaoirleach

I listened to a debate last week on the lack of guidance counsellors in secondary education. There is a huge deficiency in that regard. It is an area that suffered from cutbacks in 2010 during the downturn in the economy. Those counsellors were never put back in place as they should have been. Guidance counsellors need to engage in secondary schools from second and third year. If some student knows he or she wants to be this or that, somebody should be there to tell that student what is now needed, what will be required in future, and whether he or she should be doing a language or taking on biology instead of physics and so on. It is a huge issue right across our secondary education.

When we compare guidance counsellors North and South, is there a gap whereby more guidance is needed in secondary schools to prepare people? I might be straying a little bit beyond the remit of what the witnesses are here for, but it is important we cover this too.

Mr. Ian McKenna

I do not have any information on that but I would be willing to engage with colleagues in the North and revert to the committee on that. It may take a little while but I have no difficulty taking that forward and seeing what we can find out regarding the landscape there.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee

I can flag some work. The Department of Education, very much working with the Department of further and higher education, has reviewed the whole approach to guidance and there is now a cradle-to-grave guidance framework plan, given the problem is it has been fragmented. Guidance counsellors in schools have to be trained teachers, so they all come from a certain perspective and background. In further education and training, such as in a PLC college, it is kind of the same deal, but in our other services, there are professional adult guidance personnel, who come from a different background. After that, there could be a careers-type portal to help guide people, because the days of doing a block of education from the ages of 18 to 21 are gone. We are all going to have to upskill and reskill throughout our lives and careers and we need a proper guidance system to accommodate that. At the moment, there are the guidance systems for school, FET and HE but for adults, who knows? That is what we have to focus on.

An Cathaoirleach

The conversation I was listening to last week related to shared services between schools in each county. In the system we are all used to, the guidance counsellor is always based in the school, but that should not be the way. Mr. Brownlee was dead right about trained teachers going on to be guidance counsellors, or whatever the story is. In each county, there should be six or seven guidance counsellors and they should go out to different schools, with each of them having a different skill set. They would not have to talk to students individually but in first, second or third year, they could prepare them as they go along. I forget now what programme it was on, but the person was talking about shared services having to work in each county. There are not a huge number of secondary schools in each county. It could be ten, 15 or whatever. There is a need for a shared services approach.

Deputy O'Callaghan asked about leaving certificate results and the timing of them. How does it work in the North? I am not overly familiar with the results system there. How does it differ from the Republic of Ireland?

Mr. Ian McKenna

The North operates the UCAS system. It is precisely the same principle as throughout the United Kingdom. Students there will have provisional offers in their back pocket and await their results, whereas in our case, students wait for their results first and then get their offers from the universities. Within the UCAS system, students identify as part of the process that they want to study, say, architecture, arts or business studies and then identify the institutions they wish to go to. Based on the A-levels they take, with some prediction from the teachers, the institutions make an assessment and then will make a conditional offer. The students will have that before the results are published and, therefore, the final part of the equation relates to what results they actually get versus their predicted results, and if they meet the criteria, they will get a place at a UK university.

An Cathaoirleach

Last week, when we were in Scotland, we were talking about people from elsewhere in the UK coming to Scotland, because of Brexit and everything else that has caused a lot of problems. Has the Department come across that in doing any work between Northern Ireland and the Republic?

Mr. Ian McKenna

We had adopted a series of steps as part of our Brexit planning in the context of the Student Support Act. Normally, the criteria were such that someone living in Ireland or elsewhere in the EU or the EEA would be eligible for the SUSI grant, but we made a series of amendments to the legislation to make sure that would apply to somebody living in Ireland, elsewhere in the EU or the UK. We had taken steps in advance, therefore, to make sure students could continue with the same level of supports even if they were a student from the North coming to Ireland. Because they are eligible for the SUSI grant, they would inevitably fall within the free fees regime as well. That all continues for students both in the North and in England, Scotland and Wales.

Similarly, the UK adopted a principle whereby, under the common travel area, Irish students would continue to maintain access to the same financial systems as previously, and that has continued. Uniquely, a French student coming to an institution in the UK, including Queen’s University, would pay an international fee, whereas an Irish student would pay what is called the home student fee. We had agreed steps with the UK as to how to manage that process.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the officials for attending. The briefing has been very beneficial for our ongoing work at the committee and the important work on education both north and south of the Border.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.16 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 5 March 2024.