Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 21 May 2024

Regulation of the English Language Sector: Discussion (Resumed).

An Cathaoirleach

Good morning everyone and good morning to the witnesses. This meeting is on the need for greater regulation and oversight of the English language education sector. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Keith Moynes, assistant secretary, higher education policy division, Mr. Padraig Hennigan, assistant principal officer, and Ms Wendy Ross, assistant principal, higher education quality unit, of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science; and Dr. Jim Murray, director of development, and Ms Mary Grennan, head of international education of Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI. The officials are here today to brief the committee on the need for greater regulation and oversight of the English language education sector. The Higher Education Authority, HEA, was invited but declined as the organisation is not directly involved in the English language sector. The format of the meeting is that I will invite Mr. Moynes and then Dr. Murray to make a brief opening statement of five minutes. The countdown clocks can be seen on either side. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member will have a six-minute slot and the officials probably are aware that the committee will publish the opening statement on its website following the meeting today.

Before we begin, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charge against a person outside the house, or an official either by name or in such a way that makes him or her identifiable. The officials are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in a way that makes him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

Therefore if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the Chair to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction of the Chair. Mr. Moynes may begin. He will have five minutes and will be followed by Dr. Murray.

Mr. Keith Moynes

I thank the Cathaoirleach and the joint committee for the invitation to meet today to discuss the need for greater regulation and oversight of the English language teaching sector. Together with my colleagues, I wish to take this opportunity to provide the committee with an overview of the key reforms that have been implemented by the Government to strengthen the regulation of the international education sector in Ireland and to give an indication of future directions for regulation.

Successive national strategies on international education, including the most recent, namely, Global Citizens 2030: Ireland's International Talent and Innovation Strategy, have recognised the importance of a high-quality English language sector both for economic reasons and as a unique way of strengthening Ireland's relationships with partner countries in Europe and beyond. I think members will have seen a very visible manifestation of that on foot of the recent visit to Ireland of Prime Minister Sánchez of Spain, who had studied in Dublin as a teenager. These strategies have also identified the need to have a high-quality, robust experience for international learners. This needs to be supported by a regulatory environment which protects and enhances the overall quality of the international student experience. This regulatory imperative extends both to the requirements for providers recruiting international students and related student immigration procedures.

I will begin with the regime currently in place, which was introduced by the Government in 2015. This set of reforms were implemented in the student immigration system in response to a range of concerning practices within certain parts of the English language education sector and following the closure of a number of private colleges. These concerns primarily related to abuses of the immigration system which, in the absence of co-ordinated action across the Government, would have resulted in significant reputational damage to Ireland as a destination of choice for international education. These abuses centred on certain education providers that were operating so-called "visa factories" or business models that were based on facilitating access to the Irish labour market for international learners first and foremost, rather than being focused on providing high-quality educational experiences. I should say that Ireland is not in any way unique in experiencing these sorts of issues. These difficulties have manifested in a number of different jurisdictions that offer language education.

The key reform introduced in 2015 was the interim list of eligible programmes, known as the ILEP. The ILEP is a more restrictive list of eligible education programmes than was in place previously and is relied upon by the Department of Justice in respect of applications for the issuance of student immigration permissions. The ILEP lists the education programmes deemed acceptable for consideration of the granting of immigration permission to non-EU, EEA and UK students to reside and study, with restricted access to the labour market in Ireland. All education providers, including English-language education providers wishing to recruit such students, are required to have their programmes listed on the ILEP and to meet certain specified conditions relating to premises, programme design, governance requirements and student protection measures. The ILEP is currently managed within the Department of Justice by a team led by a seconded professional from Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, whose colleagues are here today, with experience in issues of educational quality. QQI is the State agency under the remit of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science responsible for promoting the quality, integrity and reputation of Ireland's further and higher education system. The ILEP has served to improve the standards for the delivery of English language education in Ireland pending the introduction of the international education mark, which is a core component of the Government's policy for the English language sector.

I will turn now to the future strengthening of the regulatory environment. At this point I should say that as the committee is aware, Deputy Patrick O'Donovan has recently been appointed to the role of Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. In that context and in advance of any update which the Minister will bring to Government, I do not wish to prejudge what the Minister's policy preferences are with respect to the regulatory environment and how the international education mark should be implemented or what other supporting assurance measures may be required. In that context and having regard to the convention of not commenting on the merits of policy, I will restrict my remarks to setting out what is currently provided for in the existing legislation, namely, the Qualifications and Quality Assurance (Education and Training) (Amendment) Act 2019.

The intent of the provisions of the Act as legislated for by the Oireachtas is to protect the interests of learners including international learners, to ensure the sustainability of Ireland's international education offerings and to safeguard Ireland's reputation internationally while maintaining the integrity of Ireland's education regime. The legislation significantly strengthens QQI's role as a regulator of the further, higher and English language education sectors.

The Act provides for the introduction of an international education mark, the IEM, which is intended to deliver on these policy objectives and will contribute to promoting Ireland as a first-choice destination for international learners, researchers and innovators. The IEM is expected to assure and promote confidence in the quality of the Irish education system with international stakeholders. It will ensure that international learners enrolled with higher education and English language education providers are protected and receive a quality, consistent learning experience. The legislation provides that QQI will authorise the use of the IEM in respect of international education provision within the higher education and English language education sectors to providers who have demonstrated that they meet national standards to ensure a quality experience for international learners from enrolment through to the completion of their programme of education and training.

The IEM is designed to work in tandem with other legislative provisions that have also been enacted for the protection of the welfare of international students. These include a new due diligence assessment process that will examine the capacity and capability of private education providers to quality assure and deliver education programmes. The intention of these assessments is to ensure that only providers with sufficient financial resources, sound business practices and a genuine commitment and capacity to meet learners' needs will secure State recognition for the education and training provision they offer.

In addition, QQI has been given legislative powers to establish a national scheme for the protection of enrolled learners by private education providers, which is underpinned by a new statutory learner protection fund. The fund has been designed to safeguard a learner's academic journey by ensuring that a learner can complete the programme they have begun if their programme is no longer offered by their provider for any reason. This applies not just to international learners but will provide assurance to all learners who undertake a course of study that is covered by the protection.

My colleagues and I are happy to provide any assistance to the committee. Our colleagues in QQI will now provide the committee with further information on the work done to date to develop the international education mark and related codes of practice.

Dr. Jim Murray

On behalf of Quality and Qualifications Ireland, I express our gratitude for the opportunity to address the joint committee on the need for greater regulation of the English language teaching sector.

QQI is the qualifications and quality assurance authority of Ireland, established by the Qualifications and Quality Assurance (Education and Training) Act 2012. We are responsible for promoting the quality, integrity and reputation of Ireland’s tertiary education system and for ensuring that learners achieve qualifications that are valued nationally and internationally. QQI’s core statutory functions as a quality agency and qualifications authority provide the essential context for understanding QQI’s involvement in the regulation of the English language education, ELE, sector.

The 2012 Act was amended through the Qualifications and Quality Assurance (Education and Training) (Amendment) Act in 2019. One of the main intents behind the amendment was to provide a stronger statutory basis for QQI’s regulatory engagement with ELE providers. This followed a court ruling in 2015, which resulted in reducing QQI’s ability to operate the accreditation and co-ordination of English language services, ACELS, scheme and which determined that this scheme could not be used to support the impending reforms to the immigration system at this time. Prior to this ruling, ACELS had conducted triennial inspections of ACELS-recognised providers.

Under the amended legislation, as my colleague from the Department indicated, the regulatory arrangement encompasses three distinct but related elements, namely, the introduction of a new statutory quality mark – the international education mark; an associated legislative requirement that ELE providers applying for authorisation to use the IEM undergo a statutory due diligence assessment; and a requirement that IEM-authorised ELE providers will participate in a strengthened scheme for the protection of enrolled learners, including contributing to a learner protection fund.

Since 2021, and in line with QQI’s statement of strategy 2022 to 2024, the organisation has developed the necessary infrastructure to enable the introduction of this new regulatory regime, which will be implemented as soon as the relevant sections of the amended legislation are commenced. ACELS will continue to operate in a limited manner until the IEM scheme is fully implemented.

Under the amended legislation, QQI was tasked with developing codes of practice for providers of education and training programmes to international learners based in Ireland and to learners based outside the State enrolled on programmes leading to qualifications included in our national framework of qualifications. Compliance with the relevant code of practice is the essential requirement for a provider to obtain authorisation to use the IEM. Providers are also obliged to have statutory quality assurance procedures in place. To meet these requirements, QQI developed a comprehensive policy suite throughout 2022 and 2023, comprising four key documents, namely, the Code of Practice for Provision of English Language Education to International Learners; Statutory Quality Assurance Guidelines for English Language Education Providers; the Code of Practice for Provision of Programmes of Higher Education to International Learners; and the Policy on Authorisation to Use the International Education Mark.

These documents were published in 2023 following an extensive consultation, which included meetings with over 60 English-language education and higher education stakeholders and 47 written submissions. The documents, which are available on QQI’s website, are the bases upon which IEM authorisation will proceed. It will come into legal effect once the legislation commences.

It is of note that the ELE code of practice and the statutory quality assurance guidelines for English-language education providers establish for the first time a statutory quality assurance process for the ELE sector in Ireland. This represents a significant development for the sector. Feedback from national and international stakeholders has been positive and quality assurance agencies and accreditation organisations internationally have commented positively on the uniquely robust nature of the IEM scheme for ELE providers whereby every aspect of quality assurance is assessed and firmly supported by an intensive due diligence assessment and the learner protection fund.

The ELE code of practice and ELE quality assurance guidelines establish a set of principles and criteria requiring compliance from ELE providers in areas such as supports and services for international learners; ethical marketing and recruitment, including the work of agents; transparency around fees and enrolments; organisational structures and human resource management; appropriate processes for student complaints; and programme design, including the alignment of all programmes to the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages, CEFR.

QQI has developed an application portal and a range of supports for providers that plan to apply for the IEM. Once the legislation is commenced, QQI will seek confirmations of intention to apply from ELE and higher education providers in the first application window.

There will be two initial application windows that will follow consecutively in order that providers that are unsuccessful in their first application may apply again before the legacy inspection and regulatory systems, ACELS and ILEP, are closed. The two application windows will each be approximately one year in duration. During the first six months, providers will prepare their IEM application statement, IEMAS. ELE providers will also prepare to submit their due diligence application. During the second six months, the assessment of compliance with the respective code, and in the case of ELE, with quality assurance and due diligence requirements, will be conducted. QQI has appointed expert assessors to undertake the assessments, which in the case of ELE providers will also include on-site inspections. The assessors will make recommendations to QQI’s approvals and reviews committee on whether an applicant provider should be authorised to use the IEM. The approvals and reviews committee will make the final decision on IEM authorisation. This may be granted with or without conditions, or may be refused. IEM-authorised ELE providers will be monitored for continued compliance through a triennial system of reviews and through their submission of quality reports mid-cycle. A provider that is refused authorisation may appeal the decision under a statutory appeals process.

The IEM is a voluntary scheme. However, for any provider that intends to recruit international learners requiring visas or study permissions, IEM authorisation will be obligatory.

The IEM has been designed to ensure a quality learning experience for ELE learners from pre-enrolment through to the completion of their programme. ELE providers that apply for the IEM will be assessed for the quality of the provision of their programmes and other services and will undergo a robust due diligence assessment. International learners will be fully protected by the PEL scheme and the learner protection fund. Ultimately, the scheme will help the ELE sector to continue its development in a sustainable way and contribute to national strategies for international education, immigration, employment and tourism.

Authorised ELE providers and higher education providers will have access to a new IEM brand, namely, TrustED Ireland, which will be supported and endorsed by the State. It will signify to prospective international learners and other stakeholders that they are trusted education providers.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

This is a valuable opportunity to dig down into this issue. One of the phrases used by Mr. Moynes was "visa factories". That is one of the very serious and genuine concerns people have. We know that a lot of students were left high and dry by some of these providers winding up at very short notice. While it is a great financial loss to Italian or Spanish students who are coming here to learn English, there are serious consequences for people who have travelled from Brazil and have been left high and dry, with all the consequent implications in terms of visa and their right to be in this country.

TEFL, as it was called back then, was actually my first job in education.

I did it here in Dublin, Waterford, Italy and Glasgow, strangely enough; there was a difference in pronunciation. I used to be terribly shocked when I heard poor young Italians repeating phrases back to me with the broadest, flattest Waterford accent I have ever heard. I did them a great injustice, I am sure. When I first walked into a TEFL classroom, I had 40 hours of training behind me. There is no doubt that it is a bit of a wild west. I subsequently went to 70 and 110 hours. What level of training qualification is now needed to walk into a classroom? I had a primary degree but it was just a one-week, 40-hour course, three, two, one - off you go. I would not want to speak to the quality of education I was putting across in my first couple of years doing it.

Another issue I would like the witnesses to address is regulation. I am a qualified primary school teacher. I maintained my registration through the Teaching Council. I pay my yearly registration fee. I also have Garda vetting. It has ensured that all my qualifications are kept up to date and of a sufficient standard. Is there anything like that to make sure the teacher who stands at the head of a classroom has that level of qualification? There is huge pressure on this system because we are the only English-speaking member of the European Union. That has been a huge change and additional pressure in recent years.

Another issue is around work. It does not apply to an EU student; if they arrive here, they can work their lights out. There is freedom of movement but a Brazilian student, for example, has a restriction on the number of hours they are legally allowed to work. In practice, which is an open secret, there are riders working through platforms, be it Deliveroo or whatever other company, who share licences on those platforms. The effect is that we cannot see who is actually working and doing the deliveries. I refer to a visible sector of the economy because we can all see them on bicycles cycling around. We know that a lot of the kids who turn up here, nominally on an education visa to learn English, end up working in the black economy. When we lose sight of them entirely, there is a very vulnerable student who may have poor language skills and knows that a condition of their remaining in this country is to keep quiet about whatever work they do. It is predominantly kids and young people. Are we making sure that the kids who arrive here for English language learning or to do a bit of work on the side and send a bit of money back home are adequately protected in the economy? My questions are about the quality of teaching and learning and how we regulate that and how we make sure we protect some very vulnerable people who arrive on our shores.

Mr. Keith Moynes

Qualifications and training, to which the Deputy referred, was the first question my Minister asked me, so it is pertinent. I will ask colleagues from QQI I to touch on that and I will come back and talk about work.

Ms Mary Grennan

The TEFL course to which the Deputy referred - the 40-hour course which was prevalent in the nineties and noughties - has developed considerably since that time. For the new scheme, IEM, teachers will be required to have a recognised qualification of at least 120 hours, with six hours of assessed teaching practise, a series of assignments and input into learner needs and different types of language analysis-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It is a month-long course - 120 hours.

Ms Mary Grennan

It is a month-long, full-time course. It is 120 hours. It is often done as a five- or ten-week part-time course.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

What qualifications do they need to have going into that course?

Ms Mary Grennan

For that typical qualification - a QQI certificate in TESOL - there is a level 7 entry requirement.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

So not even a primary degree is required.

Ms Mary Grennan

Level 7 is like an ordinary degree level.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Not an honours degree.

Ms Mary Grennan

For the academic manager level, the requirement is for an Ofqual level 7, which would be the equivalent of a level 9 masters level diploma in English-language teaching.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

On the specifics of the level 7 qualification, is there any prescription around what area that level 7 would be in? Is there any requirement for it to have a linguistic element? Can someone have a level 7 in whatever it is, take a month-long course and they are then a qualified English-language teacher?

Ms Mary Grennan

It is a level 7 qualification in any field. For a person who has recently completed one of those courses, providers will be required to offer quite a lot of training that would typically be offered for newly qualified teachers, including lesson observation, peer observation, mentoring systems and continuous professional development in order to ensure they develop as teachers.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I remember the terror of being asked for the first time the difference between a transitive and an intransitive verb, and I was coming from a language background and had a language degree - I had studied English and had done components of other languages as well. I am not at all sure that somebody who comes from, say, an engineering degree arrives with the required level of linguistic awareness. They may well do, they may well have had the devil and all of leaving certificate courses or they might be studying German in the Goethe-Institut and know all about modal verbs, inflected languages and so on. However, this is to take somebody with a basic level 7 qualification and give them one month to get to grips with the pedagogical nuts and bolts of running a classroom, running teaching and learning and going through the demonstrations and whatever terminology is to be used regarding the structure of those lessons. I find it difficult to stand over the idea that, within a month, they are going to have enough of a grasp of those grammatical structures, which is what teachers are delivering much of the time, to be able to effectively deliver on teaching and learning within the classroom.

Ms Mary Grennan

That is what a lot of people would say. I am a teacher trainer myself and I find it incredible how much people learn in that short time. I have a friend who recently completed a qualification from Cambridge and she then went on to do a two-year masters in teaching Spanish. She said she used, as she called it, the toolbox of teaching techniques and tools on classroom management, how to manage students and how to help students learn more than she used the input from her masters degree. I found it incredible but that is what she said. She actually used the practical skills that she had developed on this course more than her two-year masters. Increasingly, that typical 120-hour qualification is used as the practical teaching component of masters degrees. For example, at King's College London, that is used as the practical teaching component for its masters degree in TESOL. It is highly regarded in that sense.

Obviously, a newly qualified teacher will need a lot of support, depending on the levels, depending on the types of students they are teaching and depending on the context. It is really the job of the international education mark, IEM, to ensure that newly qualified teachers are supported and given the CPD and the training they need to meet the learner needs.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Is there a structured CPD element? There certainly was not in the past, although I know my experience of this is very much out of date. I assume a lot of this is still summertime work; for example, courses being run out of the local secondary school, where the Italian and Spanish students are dropping in. I did several years of this before I went back to train as a primary school teacher. When I entered Coláiste Mhuire in Marino, I was very far from the finished article, despite having had a couple of years in a classroom of sorts. I do not know if I am necessarily comforted by the answer that Ms Grennan has given. What requirements are there for the colleges to provide CPD in a structured manner?

Ms Mary Grennan

In the statutory quality assurance guidelines for English-language education providers, there is a requirement for regular CPD, including, for example, training opportunities such as a masters or diploma level programme.

This would include attendance at conferences and cascading to colleagues, including an observation cycle where teachers are observed and their areas of development identified, after which they work on those areas of development in order to continue developing in teaching.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

How many of the people who are teaching ESL are working all year round as opposed to people who teach in the summer? How long are people staying within the profession? If we are serious about CPD, then we are talking about people who are making this a long-term career. However, if we are talking about the students from UCD doing three months during the summer, then we may throw our hat at CPD requirements.

Ms Mary Grennan

There are temporary teachers. In my experience working with a number of different providers here in Ireland and also as an inspector of language centres internationally, I see many intensive programmes in, for example, France where Irish students are going to learn French in the summer - the opposite of what is happening here in Ireland. Very often those teachers who work temporarily in the summer may be primary and secondary school teachers who are doing something in the summer to supplement their income. There are not that many examples today of, as the Deputy just mentioned, students coming from UCD to work in the summer. That does not really happen anymore. They would be more working as activity leaders taking students to visit the National Museum or something like that.

ESL is a career for many teachers. It is very highly developed. In countries like the UK, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and, increasingly, in Ireland, it is a career. Many of my friends and colleagues have been in the sector for over 20 years and it has become their career. With the IEM, we are looking to have a system in place for continuous professional development and to help these teachers develop to ultimately become academic managers or teacher trainers, or develop in the sector as much as possible. That will become part of the requirements of the code of practice.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

However, there is not an incremental scale as such for the classroom teacher. Most of these are private operators and so would be paid an hourly wage. I understand that those looking for career progression will move into management or something like that. However, it does create concerns.

I am aware that I am well over time but I want to come back to Mr. Moynes on the protection issue for those participating in somewhat greyer areas of our economy.

Mr. Keith Moynes

That issue has been a matter of concern for some time. There are a couple of things to say. First, people are essentially here on study visas; they are here to study. Work is meant to be ancillary to that and to be able to help them to support them in their studies. The concern has been that for some parts of the sector, that has been flipped. It has effectively been a means to facilitate access to the labour market. The intent of the proposed regulatory environment is to drive up the overall quality of the system, to drive up the overall maturity of the sector and to ensure that the institutions within that regulated sector are competing on quality rather than low quality and low price and facilitating access to the labour market.

Our aim would be that once the sector is effectively ring-fenced, there would be much greater care and concern for the learners and much greater transparency for learners about what they are getting into. We would be concerned about people selling a false prospectus to international learners about the costs here, what it is like to work here, what it is like to study here, etc.

Large parts of the sector are high quality. We want to drive up that maturity so that the students who are here are only working to help support themselves. Their student visas stipulate that they are meant to have access to resources before that. That is part of it.

The other part of it is immigration enforcement and workplace enforcement through the WRC. Making sure people have access to information helps them understand their rights so they are not afraid to report bad behaviour.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Mr. Moynes does understand that a lot of this is happening in a grey area.

Mr. Keith Moynes

Totally.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

In platform working, for example, workers are all sharing the licences. They know if somebody calls the ball on that, then all of their mates' licences are gone. It is similar when people who know they are in breach of the visa requirements have an issue in the workplace. They are unlikely to go to the WRC. Despite the stated reason for these people to be here, they do not have the language skills. We see a huge amount of this in the platform working economy. People do not have the language skills to interface with a lot of the issues coming to fore there. It is a difficult sector to reach.

Mr. Keith Moynes

I would not demur from that. This has to be done using a suite of methods, but the best one is to have a sector where people are genuinely concerned with bringing in learners to learn, and the English language school is a place where people can get help if they get into trouble rather than operating in a grey space. We agree 100% with the Deputy on that.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I thank the witnesses for attending. I will follow up on a statement made by Mr. Moynes. I understand where he is coming from in terms of safeguarding reputations, the high quality of education and the false prospectus that has been put out there. One issue raised both with the committee and also with me is that students are restricted to working between the hours of 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. on their visas. This is a barrier to them accessing a supplementary level of education that may have been identified as a need when they arrived or of accessing some courses they wish to pursue. Has any consideration been given to having greater flexibility in that regard? Maybe "rebalancing" is the correct term to use when it comes to those restricted hours.

Ms Grennan may want to take my next question as she mentioned that she is also an inspector. She spoke of legislative guidelines around CPD and supporting and nurturing younger teachers coming through. Are they guidelines or are they enforced recommendations? Will this sector ever get to a point where there will be the equivalent of the whole-school evaluation that takes place in primary and post-primary education?

Mr. Keith Moynes

I will take the first question, which is a really good one and one that we have grappled with. In an ideal world, there would not be rules that create such an inflexible environment. The reason they were introduced was essentially as a compliance mechanism. What was happening when that flexibility was not provided for was that you would go to the school looking for the students and be told they came in the evening. It was essentially ducking and diving for that sort of agenda of visa factory access to the labour market. The rules are there to enable an inspector to arrive at the door and be told the people are actually there.

As the sector matures and a new regulatory environment is introduced, there will be much greater confidence in the quality of the sector and that people are genuinely here to study. With that in place, there will be greater assurance as regards providing greater flexibility because there will not be the same concern. If there is confidence in the operators and confidence that the teachers have the right qualifications and that people are here to study rather than primarily to work, as they are entitled to do for a certain number of hours, there will be greater assurance on the part of the State. That will enable it to say there are different models it would be comfortable with. I do not think we would be comfortable now because we do not have that confidence. However, the Deputy is right to say that is somewhere we would ultimately like to get to, if that makes sense.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I have quite a few qualifications, all of which I obtained as an adult learner in evening programmes rather than in full time education.

A lecturer would often come forward and ask someone whether they are free to come in for a few hours on a Saturday to take a section of a course that we are not doing great on. At the moment, these learners would be excluded from such opportunities.

Mr. Keith Moynes

Yes, at the moment. That is the trade-off that is being made because of the concerns or abuses that existed. We definitely want to get to a much more mature sector that is enabled through regulation to focus on learners. Parts of the sector are on that journey and are of a very high quality, but there is not a universal assurance on the State. That model absolutely applies to the type of more specialised training that MEI spoke to this committee about last time. One would be bringing in people who want to top up and do exactly what the Deputy, and many others, have done by engaging in lifelong learning. Such people want a flexibility that suits them as grown-ups, rather than being stuck in a classroom. We would like a system where we have an assurance that if we do that, it is not going to facilitate abuse. We will never have a perfect system but if we can get a very high degree of assurance across the sector, we will be in a much more comfortable space.

Dr. Jim Murray

The Deputy mentioned the statutory quality assurance guidelines which, critically, are enforceable by QQI once we start the scheme. The thing to remember is that QQI has operated formal quality assurance across all public and private higher education and further education for over a decade and, before that, the predecessor agencies did that. There is a wealth of experience and expertise. What we have got to think about in terms of the English-language sector is that we are integrating them into that system. I am not sure that the whole school evaluation is the model we are trying to imitate. It is the institutional review model that has operated across our universities, and across further and higher education, that we are working with. We will integrate the English-language education sector into that broader tertiary system where there will be huge learning for the sector. We will start including English-language education providers in all of our enhancement activities. We do an awful lot of work on assessment across all of the sectors. Once they are formally part of our system, they will be part of all of that and this will cut into the issue around CPD. Over time we will look at the necessary qualifications for the sector. If we see that there are deficiencies, we will remedy them over time. The critical thing is that we get the scheme going because that is the gateway to helping the system to mature, as Mr. Moynes has said, and to raising all the boats together into a very high-quality system. It will be part of our tertiary system so we will bring to bear all of the tools and processes that help to elevate quality.

Ms Mary Grennan

The QA guidelines are guidelines, but providers will be required to meet the guidelines. As part of their assessment, they will be assessed on compliance with the code of practice that Dr. Murray mentioned earlier and they will be assessed on their ability to meet the QA guidelines. The QA guidelines are quite robust. They include areas around organisational structures, staffing, communications, governance of quality assurance and quality assurance systems reviews. There are policies on learner welfare, staff welfare and safeguarding for younger learners. There are academic management structures in areas like teaching, learning and assessment. There is programme design, as Dr. Murray mentioned, which is aligned with the common European framework of reference. There are opportunities for students within the English-language education providers to consider progression to HE. We are very interested in finding those progression pathways. Academic integrity is a huge area for students coming to Ireland to study.

With supports and services for international learners, this includes, for example, inductions on, if they are here for a while, how to get a PPSN, how to open a bank account, what the requirements are to comply with their visa requirements, advice on integrating themselves into life in Ireland, cultural programmes and activities, and advice is often offered on how to find employment. Then there are staff supports and development, HR systems, training for specific roles in the organisation, training on the syllabus, methodologies, approaches, safeguarding, development opportunities and CPD. While they are guidelines, they are quite robust. That is what will be part of the assessment.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Tertiary education has a very important role to play, not only in lifelong learning but for people who want to change careers and directions of where they want to go. Following last week’s engagement, I spoke to one of the contributors. They told me about the scams that people have been caught up in. There is no other way of describing these other than absolute scams. People have paid out thousands of euro, which has just disappeared into the ether with one of these scammers. I am in no way saying that legitimate agencies are not doing the good work that they do but there is an element that is exploiting people. With that in mind, does QQI or the Department have any oversight of these agencies that are highlighting opportunities to come to Ireland to learn English or even the potential use of, say, an escrow account where the students’ money would be secure?

Dr. Jim Murray

What we have been speaking about today is the introduction of a very, very robust regime. The due diligence assessment is a critical part of this because it will allow us to identify, from a range of evidence – everything from the business plans, financial stability and corporate governance of these entities – whether they are legitimate entities. No entity that is operating now will be in this regime unless they go through this process. What the due diligence process will enable us to do is to identify that these are legitimate entities. We will be clearly looking for evidence where they are scamming.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

By entities does Dr. Murray mean schools or agencies because they are not always the same thing?

Dr. Jim Murray

No. We will work with other State agencies, such as Enterprise Ireland, which promotes Ireland as a destination for English language education. We work closely with our colleagues in the Department and in conjunction with the Department of Justice on the immigration regime. The IEM will be one part of a suite of across-government activities which together, we are very confident, will lead to very significant improvement and ultimately a very high quality and reputable system. The key is to get it off the ground and get it into operation because we now have, in the legislation, very robust measures. Part of our difficulty at the moment is that we are talking about the old system while we are on the cusp of entering into the new system. The key is to get the new system up and running.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Transition is the correct term

Mr. Keith Moynes

The issue of agents is one of the trickiest. It is not only Ireland that experiences this. I was at a meeting more than a decade ago on this with other English-speaking countries. There will always be unscrupulous people who seek to prey on vulnerable people. There are places where agents are regulated. That is the case in Brazil, for example. There are places where they are coming from where they have greater protection. Obviously, many of them operate outside the State. The best we can do is to have two things: one is to have a sector that does not use them, that shares information and that is not in the business that uses this and the other is to have clear information for anyone who wants to come to Ireland about how they come here.

I do not think we will ever eliminate it. As recently as this year, the British Council was experiencing the same issues around agents. It is a constant, evolving issue, but the best thing we can do as a system is up our own game and minimise the extent to which people are exposed to the dodgy practices of some, but not all, as the Deputy acknowledged, of the operators. Reputable agents play a very important role as moderators in the sector, but there is a cohort that are dodgy, and it is about sharing information internationally, with colleges being alive to this and having integrity themselves.

Moreover, as Dr. Murray touched on, one model that was prevalent related to dodgy people owning both an agency and a language school. The due diligence process looking at the reputation and credibility of the people running a school will make it harder for people to act nefariously but, sadly, I do not think it will ever be impossible, and we just have to be alive to that.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Under the new IEM regime, what will be the changes to inspections? What will they look like and what sanctions will QQI have if it is found a school is not compliant?

Dr. Jim Murray

There are three distinct elements that, collectively, will bring it all together. The first is the due diligence aspect. A provider cannot get the IEM unless it goes through the due diligence, and that will look at all the features Mr. Moynes was talking about, namely, everything from corporate governance to how the school deals with agents, whether it is financially sustainable and whether the people running the institution are reputable. If there is not a clean bill of health in that regard, the school will not get the IEM, but that is only the beginning. Thereafter, the school will be assessed against the code of practice, which is a very extensive document and of which Ms Grennan outlined all the different elements. Again, each provider will have to secure a clean bill of health and there will be two elements to the process in that regard. Each provider will have to demonstrate, through its IEM application statement, how it meets every criterion in the code of practice and, similarly, how it complies with the quality assurance guidelines we have established under statute. It must demonstrate compliance and, again, if there is widespread failure in that regard, it will not be authorised to get the IEM.

Another element is that the provider will have to contribute to the learner protection fund, which is a further signal of its bona fides in being concerned about its learners, in order that in worst-case scenarios, where a provider ceases to operate or a programme ceases to be offered, we will be able to use the fund either to ensure those learners are transferred to other programmes to finish their studies or to refund their tuition fees for the year in which the programme ceases to be offered.

If the provider comes through all that, which is a very robust set of examinations that includes site visits, inspections and observations of teaching, of how the school in general operates and so forth, and is authorised to use the IEM, we will authorise it either with or without conditions. Authorisation with conditions is significant because we will have a follow-up process to make sure every condition we set is met and there will be absolute timelines or deadlines associated with that. Depending on what it is, it could be a six-, eight-, 12- or 18-month deadline. Once we have carried out the initial set of reviews, we will set those conditions.

I would be confident that poor or nefarious operators would not get through that system but in the low likelihood they do, if anything else comes to light subsequent to a review in our follow-up activities, there will be an 18-month quality report and a triennial review thereafter. We will have intelligence from other sources and we will continue to liaise with our colleagues in the Department of Justice in the context of immigration and so on, and there will be other ways and means by which information will come our way, as it always does to a quality agency. If we need to, we can take action and, at any time, call for a review of compliance with the IEM if we are made aware, or if it comes to our attention, that there is a failure. The ultimate sanction is that we can withdraw the IEM. That is provided for in the legislation and it is in our policy on authorisation. There is a process to go through. Withdrawal from the IEM means the provider cannot then recruit non-EU or non-EEA learners. The process is staged and stepped, therefore, but it does escalate along the way and it is a very robust system.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a couple of questions. Our guests from QQI spoke about due diligence and so on. How many inspections or investigations have been carried out in respect of some of these poor operators, rogue or dodgy agencies or whatever we might call them? We will recall that about ten years ago, there was an extensive investigation into English language schools and a number of them closed. In light of the contributions of the witnesses who appeared before this committee last week, it seems those rogue people are starting to raise their heads again. How has that been allowed to happen? What engagement does QQI have with other Departments - Dr. Murray mentioned the Departments of Justice and enterprise - in regard to these agencies? I do not know if he watched the evidence given to the committee last week but some of it was frightening, relating to money having disappeared and so on. I cannot say for certain that is happening but I am going by what we heard last week. Among inspections that have been carried out over the past, say, two years, how many operators have been closed and how many investigations has QQI had ongoing at any one time?

Dr. Jim Murray

The key point is that, currently, until the relevant sections of the legislation are commenced, QQI does not have a statutory role to investigate any of these bodies. We have a residual administrative function, which came to us via one of the predecessor agencies, namely, the ACELS inspection scheme, but, as I said in my opening statement, there is no statutory basis for us operating it. We maintain it on a residual basis for the existing members that were part of that scheme, but we have not taken on new members in several years. The aim and focus is to get the new scheme up and running where we will have the statutory authority to go after and investigate rogue operators, as the Chairman quite rightly said we should. That is the reality.

At the moment, we run the residual review service for ACELS members and those inspections are triggered by changes in ownership, in premises and so on, but it is very much a residual function. We do not have any statutory authority and it cannot even be used or linked in to the ILEP regime, which is the current regulatory regime in large measure for international education, including English language education.

Mr. Keith Moynes

I might come in there. Under the ILEP regime, 51 inspections were carried out over the period 2016 to 2023. There was obviously a dip during Covid because we were not able to carry out inspections, so that figure was probably lower than one might have expected. Last year, five providers were removed from the register. Before that, one was removed in each year and then, before that, in 2019 and 2020, a couple.

They were not all for negative reasons. People may choose to remove themselves. It is not that there has not been a regime at all. Obviously, we want that to be strengthened; that is why we want to do what we propose. However, there has been a compliance regime in place.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Clarke mentioned the escrow accounts and it was mentioned on numerous occasions last week. Will that be part and parcel of the new regime? Will funds be secured once paid by overseas students?

Dr. Jim Murray

There is a statutory requirement that fees that are paid 40 days before the student is enrolled would be put into an escrow account.

Mr. Keith Moynes

There will also be a protection of enrolled learners fund. Essentially it is a levy on these fees. That will be paid into a central fund managed by QQI. That will protect learners whose programme fails. The aim would be to get them on a different programme. There are two planks to the protection.

An Cathaoirleach

Remuneration and qualifications of teachers, and inspections of schools were key issues raised by the witnesses who appeared at last week's meeting. Has the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science engaged with the Department of Education and the Teaching Council regarding the qualifications of teachers and everything like that?

Mr. Keith Moynes

The English language providers are not recognised schools and would not fall under the regulatory environment that the schools system operates under. Dr. Murray mentioned the different models earlier. The school inspection regime and Teaching Council is one model. The model that pertains in the tertiary sector more generally is a different model, as Dr. Murray outlined. What is proposed is more aligned with the tertiary model rather than the highly State-controlled and connected model. The fundamental difference is the recognised schools are emanations of the State, whereas the English language schools are private operators. It is legitimate to have a different regulatory environment. I would not say the aim is the same, but the aim is to have that enhanced regime where people have the right qualifications and work in good environments in legitimate operators that look after the interests of students.

An Cathaoirleach

Another issue raised last week was the provision whereby incoming international students can apply for their social security number well in advance of their arriving in the country. The Canadian model was mentioned at that meeting. Has any consideration been given to adopting a similar model in Ireland? Does the Department have any engagement with other stakeholders, such as the Departments of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Justice and Social Protection on this matter? They were also talking about evening classes, which would mean they would be able to work because they would like to be able to earn money when they are here.

Mr. Keith Moynes

It is an interesting question. In principle, I agree it makes sense to have as smooth an operating environment for learners as possible. Those going to Canada to study the English language are not allowed to work. Canada allows people to work if they are studying for a degree programme. I looked at last week's committee meeting and found it interesting. The chances are that those just coming to study English will not be allowed to work. Each model has something different. In principle, it absolutely makes sense that we should make it as smooth as possible for people to come here. There will be considerable engagement with other Departments to try to make the experience as smooth as possible. That manifests itself with the Department of Justice for visa applications, re-entry permissions, etc. A continual engagement takes place.

The numbers are big. A figure of 120,000-odd was referenced. Many of those are EU students. There are administrative constraints that come with that. We always want to be slightly careful. With, say, the Department of Social Protection public services card there are legitimate reasons for people being expected to turn up in person to validate their identity. In the past, there were far more public service cards than there were people.

There is a balance to be struck between making it smooth for the student and protecting the integrity of State services. I would not want to mislead the committee by saying this is something we have done but, broadly speaking, as we improve the quality of the sectors and the State's assurance of that quality, that stuff gets easier. Many of the regulations at the moment are premised on the idea we have to have compliance, which may or may not be there. As the sector matures, it will undoubtedly be easier for the State to provide services because it will have the assurance there are fewer operators trying to game the system.

An Cathaoirleach

As a result of Brexit, are more European students coming to Ireland to study English than pre-2016? Has that given an opportunity for British schools offering the same service to relocate to Ireland to take advantage of Brexit?

Mr. Keith Moynes

I do not have the numbers to hand; maybe colleagues do. Erasmus, for example, is the European scheme and the UK has opted out of it. There are significant levels of interest, so there are opportunities for Ireland. There is an opportunity for us to be seen as a friendly, welcoming place where people can get a high-quality education. That is why we are doing what we are doing. In the past, UK and international operators looked to locate here. We have an open economy from that perspective, provided they meet the regulatory environment. We can look to see if we have any statistics.

An Cathaoirleach

If it has them, will the Department forward them to the clerk of the committee?

Mr. Keith Moynes

Absolutely.

Ms Mary Grennan

We can say there has definitely been an increase in Erasmus+ interest in Ireland since Brexit. Enterprise Ireland has supported that with members of MEI in Europe to recruit more students for Erasmus+ programmes. Some 70% of students come from the EU, many of them on Erasmus+, whether they are teenagers or adults.

An Cathaoirleach

When QQI has the structures in place to fully investigate, Dr. Murray said it takes 18 months for a report to come back. Am I right in saying that or did I pick it up wrong?

Dr. Jim Murray

No, sorry, once a school is authorised to use the IEM, the statute provides for a triennial system of reviews. We will also have a midpoint quality report from each school as part of the monitoring.

An Cathaoirleach

When QQI is investigating operators it could call rogue, dodgy or whatever the story is, at what point does it decide it warrants a Garda investigation? If funds go missing, I presume QQI calls An Garda Síochána, as it is the statutory body which would come in to conduct a statutory investigation. A school cannot be going on for 12, 18 or 24 months trying to prove it is not rogue or dodgy.

Dr. Jim Murray

If we were aware of any crime or misdemeanour, we would be obliged to report it. We would have to have a standard of proof that would satisfy-----

An Cathaoirleach

Absolutely. I understand that. What I am perhaps trying to get at is whether QQI could see somebody trying to operate for months and carrying on before they would be reported to An Garda Síochána, or does it depend on the amount of evidence it has?

Dr. Jim Murray

It depends on the nature of the failing. If it is criminal, we would immediately report it but if was a quality assurance failing, we would go through the regular process. Some failings are not nefarious; they are just weaknesses. We operate on the basis of approval but we have a series of measures put in place. I spoke about the conditions which can look like a very bureaucratic thing but it is actually quite serious. We are the statutory body. We set conditions and they have timelines. They will not be on the never-never. They are very tightly defined and we work through those systematically. If a provider did not meet those conditions, leaving aside criminal issues, they could potentially lose the IEM authorisation which would be a serious business in respect of their recruitment of international students. That is the ultimate sanction. That sanction is there and it is clear. We have made it clear to all providers in all of our documentation and our engagements. However, we also want to look on it more positively. We want to build up this sector to make it something of which Ireland can be proud and that it is a quality offering and that it enhances our reputation for education more generally. As Ms Grennan said, we hope there will be opportunities in the future, once there is greater trust in this sector across all of the education sector, for progression pathways and so forth, and the system will be more integrated.

An Cathaoirleach

I have one final question for Mr. Moynes. I started off my question earlier on about there being quite a number of English language schools ten years ago but then an awful lot of them closed. Does he have figures on how many actually closed? It could have been on a "Prime Time Investigates" programme. I am not sure. How many schools or colleges do we have at the moment that are actually registered, are operating legally and where everything is okay?

Mr. Keith Moynes

I do not know. Mr. Hennigan may know the number.

Mr. Padraig Hennigan

A number will be operating exclusively privately but there are 125 providers, between higher education and English language education, on the interim list of eligible programmes and around 90 of those would be English language providers.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. When we bring in witnesses before the committee, we always hear the negatives. I am sure there are some really good positive stories out there as well. I do not want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say it is all negative as it is not. I know some well-operated English language schools are doing an absolutely fantastic job. I do not know any rogue ones but I have been made aware of some of them and of the differences between the approach they take and the way they treat their students. However, I presume the positives far outweigh the negatives. It is about getting at the negative side and trying to improve it. It is like any Department agency or anything like that. The negatives will always be there and trying to root them out is the big issue.

Mr. Keith Moynes

Totally. There are some really good, small and medium-sized Irish enterprises many of which are long-standing, multi-generational family businesses doing a great job. I mentioned Prime Minister Sánchez of Spain at the beginning of the meeting. There was a time when there were three of four prime ministers in Europe who had all had some form of English language education in Ireland. I used to work in Japan. There were tonnes of people there. There are businesses that are doing a great job employing people and giving a great experience to learners. What we, and also what they want, is a strong regulatory environment where they can go internationally and recommend this as a good place universally to do business. The Cathaoirleach is absolutely right and it is a very fair point to make that there is a very strong set.

An Cathaoirleach

As a closing remark, some of our universities also have absolutely fantastic English schools and they do a fantastic job.

That has to be recognised as well.

I thank the officials and witnesses for coming before today's meeting. It was greatly appreciated and will feed into the work from our witnesses last week and to the report we will complete.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.25 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 28 May 2024.