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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 4 Mar 2003

Vol. 1 No. 4

Competiton Authority: Presentation.

I welcome Dr. John Fingleton, Chairman of the Competition Authority, and his colleagues, Mr. Andrew Rae and Mr. Colm Treanor. Dr. Fingleton has kindly agreed to make a presentation on the work of the Competition Authority on competition issues in the non-life insurance market. Members have received a copy of Dr. Fingleton's briefing note. I congratulate Dr. Fingleton and his staff on the fine work the authority has done in the past year. I have examined its annual report for 2002 and the joint committee looks forward to hearing from Dr. Fingleton on the outcome of the authority's joint study with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment on anti-competitive practices and constraints in the non-life insurance market as soon as it has been completed.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. While it is generally accepted that witnesses would have qualified privilege, the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of a long-standing parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such as way as to make him or her identifiable.

The committee has made the non-life insurance market its priority, with particular regard to the cost to small business of public and employers' liability insurance and the cost of motor insurance. We wish to hear from the authority about the issues that have come to its attention and the work it is conducting in this area. Members will then question the delegation.

Dr. John Fingleton

This is the first time the chairman of the authority has appeared before this committee. One of the things I sought in the Competition Act 2002 was the ability to meet this committee and discuss the work of the authority. I look forward to many other such opportunities.

The briefing note I have given Members has three themes. The first sets out the role and function of the authority. Drawing on the documentation that has been published on insurance and my background as an economist, I thought it was useful to put the competition issues in a broader perspective. This forms the second theme as I know of the committee's interest in the many aspects of insurance reform. The final theme will outline the authority's section 30 study on the insurance sector.

The authority has three roles: enforcement of competition law, advocacy of competition and merger reviews. Our role regarding enforcement is the enforcing of sections 4 and 5 of the Competition Act, namely, the agreements between undertakings and abuses of a dominant position. We must be conservative in what we say about investigations as breaches of the Act are criminal offences and we do not wish to prejudice any actions we might take.

In 2002, the single largest category of complaints from business and consumers related to insurance. The complaints relate to lack of choice, absolute levels of premia, increases in premia, the methods employed by insurance companies in assessing risks and allegations of discounts offered in exchange for purchasing a range of insurance products, which we term "tied selling". When we investigated these complaints many of them did not reveal a breach of the Act. However, they pointed to a general malaise in the market - the market is not working well for buyers.

We have had many complaints about refuse collection. It is clear this is another market that is not working well for consumers. Insurance last year was the number one issue and refuse was the number two issue. Whether members come from rural or urban constituencies, they will know that refuse charges have increased a lot. It is not surprising that we receive complaints when prices increase.

As is often the case, making a link between the specific issues raised by those individuals and a breach of section 4 or 5 of the Act is not necessarily an automatic link. One case is under investigation in the insurance sector where we have concerns that the Act was breached. In the normal course of events, we would bring proceedings if we did not succeed in getting changes to industry practices to address that. That investigation, which is a substantial matter, is still ongoing.

In regard to other complaints, our preferred approach in dealing with them is to undertake a section 30 study, to which I will refer in a moment. That enables us to get a deeper understanding of what is going on in the market so it is better to address these complaints to understand the context in which they occurred. Very often our experience is that what is driving consumer and business dissatisfaction with the performance of a market may have more to do with regulatory practice, the structure of the market and so on than with actual competitive behaviour by undertakings. All these can be factors.

Our second role is the advocacy one. We use the term "advocacy" to mean championing of competition, such as what I am doing here today, what we do in the newspapers and what we do in review groups in putting forward proposals to Ministers and so on regarding new legislation. We try to ensure that regulations and legislation do not impact negatively on competition unless they must. Too often in the past, restrictions on competition were used, not so much to achieve public policy objectives, but to protect incumbents in markets from competition. The taxi example is always the topical one - it never seems to go away. We have done work on pharmacies, liquor licensing, electricity, telecommunications and a whole range of other areas.

We do these studies for a number of reasons. I will refer to criteria later. If we think there is a complex issue around regulation in the market, perhaps high levels of concentration, and if it is an important market in terms of contribution to the economy, we will do a study. The study which is ongoing and relevant to insurance, other than the insurance study itself, is the study of the professions. In that context we are looking at both legal professions, barristers and solicitors. We expect late next week to publish an interim phase of the study, which is a very large report by Indecon Economic Consultants on competition in eight professions. It will include two substantial chapters on the legal profession, and the study will continue. I expect to receive questions on the professions study so I will then come back to it.

The third area of our responsibility is merger policy, for which we have just assumed responsibility. Up to January we did not have responsibility for domestic mergers. Until two years ago we had no involvement in European merger policy. It is a new function we have taken on and from now on we will be very vigilant as to mergers in this and all sectors. The process has been much more open and transparent since 1 January.

On competition issues and insurance, the sectors we are talking about, particularly motor insurance, employers' liability and public liability, including the whole area of non-life insurance, are very important. They amount to 7% of GDP. Problems in the market, particularly competition problems, can affect consumers directly. They can also affect them indirectly because they purchase goods whose prices have increased because the producers of the goods must pay higher prices for insurance. They also harm industry in terms of inward investment and the ability to price competitively, employ more people, innovate and so on. These costs are distributed widely across the economy. One of the reasons we are interested in this area is the magnitude of the problem, not just the complexity of the issues.

Having said that, our focus is primarily on addressing longer-term structural issues in the market and, not usually and not in this case, short-term issues. I want to distinguish between issues that affect long-term premia for insurance and those issues that have to do with the recent price tags, and deal with both of these separately. What we can act on in Ireland, both from a competition and non-competition perspective, are the long-term structural issues. I have identified a number of these issues in my submission, including litigation costs, fraudulent and exaggerated claims, inefficient pricing of risks, levels of compensation and variability in levels of compensation. If there is a lot of uncertainty around competition - it will be more expensive to resolve disputes. There are also issues of weak competition and accident frequency. On litigation costs, the Personal Injuries Assessment Board's work on the professions could address litigation cost issues. The current advertising campaign on fraudulent insurance claims and punishment for fraudulent claims are important measures in that area. The availability of data to insurance companies in terms of efficient pricing of risk and levels of compensation and the idea of a book of quantum are important factors is resolving the risk. Health and safety compliance in terms of accident frequency, including the penalty points system in motoring, is important.

There are many different policies, and competition policy fits in as one of the important policies. Much can be done in Ireland about all these policies. We are very supportive of the policies that are outside our remit and we are very keen in terms of competition policy, which is relevant as one of these factors, and in terms of all the other factors, because it has an important role to play as part of that process. That is why our study is timed to coincide with these other reforms.

Let me turn to the change in insurance premia. The changes in the past 18 months appear to have been driven primarily by international factors outside our control. They have helped in drawing attention to the already high level of premia in the Irish market. Our evidence is based on the fact that several other competition authorities in Europe are now looking at insurance because premia has increased. The OFT indicates that increases of up to 50% have occurred in the liability market in the UK so we are not alone in what has happened in liability insurance. There are two factors, one of which appears to be once-off events such as 11 September and climate change. The other is the decline in equity markets where insurance companies have increased their prices to shore up cash reserves to meet claims rather than sell equities, although I expect they have done both. The first of these probably affects the liability market more than the motor market. The liquidity problem probably affects both, but it may affect liquidity more. This is one of the things we will be trying to find out in the study.

There are many predictions that international rates will fall. Our primary concern is that the benefits arising from a combination of structural reform in the Irish market and a fall in international rates are passed on. There is very little point in undertaking major structural reform in the insurance market if there is not effective competition to ensure the changes are fully delivered to consumers and business buyers. We want to focus attention on the need to have vigorous competition in the market. It is probably not as important paradoxically when prices are rising internationally because that is when the domestic sector has the least opportunity to put up premia. It is when prices are falling internationally or when there is structural reform in the domestic market that we must be most vigilant about ensuring competition. That concludes my general remarks on where we see competition policy fitting in. I reiterate that we consider it important in itself, but it is also important in delivering the benefits of the reforms in other areas.

Let me now turn to the study itself. The authority is constantly asked to study various sectors of the economy. One of the difficulties is knowing where we should put our resources. Last year there were a number of requests and we drew up a set of criteria which would help us in deciding what areas we would study - I have listed them on page seven of the submission. The economic importance of the sector is one such area. I have referred to the 3% contribution of the non-life insurance sector to GDP. This is a fairly substantial sector. The second are indicators of possible competition problems. There we had the findings of the Motor Insurance Advisory Board, evidence of the price rises in the sector and the large number of complaints we got. That was a significant factor in looking at this study. The third is the existence of public or private barriers to entry - questions are also raised about barriers to entry in the Motor Insurance Advisory Board report. The fourth is the degree of public interest - no one would deny that this is a huge matter of public interest.

The insurance study came in on top regarding all these criteria. We also undertook to do a study on banking, which people can see also meets all the criteria. We did not have the money or personnel to do a study on refuse collection this year. Food distribution was also on our candidate list last year. There were other areas further down the list but those are the two we have earmarked, unless some other candidate overtakes them, for future years. Banking and insurance were the two we felt we could take on this year.

Having decided to do the study, we published, last September or October, the draft terms of reference. We see this as important when we are doing these studies. These section 30 studies are reasonably big machines once one cranks up the apparatus. We undertake a lot of public consultation and we will do a lot of data collection and so on. This is not unlike the exercise undertaken by Ms Dorothea Dowling's committee in terms of being rigorous. We like to consult on the terms of reference so we published draft terms of reference and we sought feedback on those. We suggested that the draft terms of reference for the study, which is carried out jointly with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, include motor insurance, employers' liability and public liability. There was a question about professional indemnity insurance being the other single major category in the non-life market where there was concern. We raised that as a possible question in the consultation process but the response was not overwhelming and we felt, on balance, that it was better to keep our focus narrow in the other three areas. We can return to that issue later. Much of what we discover in this study may be relevant to it.

The outcomes of the study could include advice to the Government or to specific Ministers on regulatory reform; recommendations for change by industry itself - depending on what we identify as the problems, this could refer to the insurance or brokering industries or, perhaps, the legal profession; advice to consumers on how they can drive competition; and if we come to the conclusion that competition is healthy in the industry, it is possible that we give a clean bill of health.

Having set the study out in those terms, we are planning the final document to consist of four parts. The first part will comprise an introduction and overview. This will look at the regulatory systems in place in the insurance industry. We will try to get a sense of what is happening internationally and to relate that to what is happening here so that we are able to get a good sense of whether increases in Ireland are consistent with those that are happening in other countries and, if not, the reason for that. For each of the three sectors - motor, employers' liability and public liability - we propose to do a competitive effects analysis. That involves defining the relevant markets, of which there could be many. A difficult issue will be to decide whether, for example, motorcycle insurance is a relevant product market of its own or part of the wider insurance market. That will require a good deal of consultation with purchasers and suppliers and the use of data.

Having identified the markets - let us say motorcycle insurance, for example, is a market - we must then find out who are the suppliers in that market, what are their market shares, what is their interaction with brokers and so on. We will then look at barriers to entry. We will see if people can easily enter the market and whether there has been entry. We will look at rivalry and the extent to which consumers can switch. If there is only one supplier and the relevant market is narrow is there a position of dominance? If there is a suggestion of dominance we will ask if there is a possibility of abuse of dominance. The purpose of that is to narrow down where, if at all, there are competition problems in the sector.

One of the questions the MIAB raised, which we are keen to answer, is why there has not been entry into the market. This is one of the conundrums of the industry. For example, in motor insurance there are five major underwriters and conflicting claims about profitability. If it is the case that profitability in the Irish market is relatively high why is there not greater entry? EU regulation does not prevent it. The various directives tend to facilitate entry. Is the market here so different from that in Europe? There is an argument that the way liability insurance is run in continental European countries is so vastly different from the way it is run here that companies from continental Europe might not wish to enter. However, that would still leave the question of why companies do not enter from the UK, where the system is very similar.

We are hoping to analyse questions like that and illuminate the question of how much rivalry there is in the market, what the possibilities are for entry and whether industry practices are efficient. Another EU regulation allows information sharing by insurance companies and one of the questions we will be interested in looking at is the extent to which that is fully used, the extent to which the benefits envisaged by it are passed on to consumers and whether that information is fully available to entrants so that they can price their risk efficiently. We will be examining all those various issues.

I can understand that there is a good deal of frustration abroad, and probably in this room, at how long it takes to do a study of this kind. We would love to be able to have a rigorous, considered and well argued set of findings for the committee today but those requirements are not internally consistent. It is easy to get a consultancy firm, in eight weeks, to give a reasonably superficial account of an industry but our preferred approach is to get our hands dirty in looking at the details of how this industry works. We have just put three consultancy contracts out to tender. One is for someone who is an expert in international insurance issues, one is for someone who is an expert in competitive effects analysis, which will supplement our skills in that area, and a third is for someone who has statistical or econometric skills to analyse data. Our intention is to incorporate those individuals, or whoever we select, into our team so that we will have five or six people working on this for the remainder of this year. We will not have a final report by the end of this year. I am hopeful of delivering one early in 2004. The timing will depend on how much further we feel we need to go. There is always the possibility of our publishing part of the study first if we think that would be useful.

We will be approaching, not just the insurance industry but also other industry groupings to assist us with our data collection. Our experience in the past has been very positive in getting assistance from industry. We do not have a preconceived agenda. We have a sense, with these studies, of trying to inform ourselves and the general public of what the issues are. Some of that may be good for particular segments of industry and some may be bad. It is difficult to predict which way it will be.

Ensuring that competition is working is important in delivering the overall package. The timing of the conclusion of the study will be important in coinciding with the first delivery of the structural reforms in the sector. In that sense, the timing works well. Having gone on longer than the committee may have wanted, I will pause for questions.

Thank you very much for coming to be with us. I assure you that we will be working closely with you over the lifetime of this committee. I look forward to working with you and your team. I know, from my experience in the midlands, that the biggest enemy of medium and small family businesses is the cost of insurance. It has become a major issue and is causing families and those who are employing ten, 12 or even more people to ask if it is worth continuing when premiums are increasing by 45% and 50%, as they have done in the past year or two. In making this issue the number one priority of this committee, we are showing the Government, the insurance industry and all associated with it that we will be the watchdog in this area for the lifetime of the Government.

Will Dr. Fingleton say whether he has a date for completion and publication of the study?

Dr. Fingleton

No, my best estimate would be early next year. We do not set precise dates for such studies because very often we need to gather more data and have more consultation with the industry. We normally present our draft conclusions to the industry when we have completed a draft version of the report. We also hold oral hearings to ensure details which we may not have appreciated - we are not the experts in the industry - are factually correct. Where a report contains recommendations which the industry should take on board, I prefer to write conclusions which say we have encouraged the industry to change a particular practice because it could have damaged competition, and include that as part of the outcome of the study rather than have a public battle to achieve that aim once the study is published. We have often obtained undertakings from an industry to change behaviour because we put forward good reasons that what they are doing is not in the public interest.

Dr. Fingleton is clearly distinguishing between the long-term and underlying structural aspects to this industry and is saying there is, in terms of the international outlook, a dependence on equity markets. I am interested to hear his views on the investment strategies pursued by insurance companies and how that impacts on the situation. Are they over-dependent on equity markets? Is this one of the main reasons we, in the short to medium term, can see no respite for the people paying for insurance? Do they now have to pay off a massive level of debt which they incurred on their investments?

Is Dr. Fingleton linking his specific study to the professions? I know there is a linkage between it and the introduction of the euro. I was impressed with that report in terms of how professions in Ireland hiked their fees on the introduction of the euro. I am interested to hear what element of the study into the professions, such as solicitors and barristers in terms of their fee-charging policies, will be imported into the insurance study? That issue appears to be a significant driver of the cost in the domestic industry as opposed to the overall general global impact. The introductory paper seems to indicate to the committee that the scope of the study is not to reduce the price but to stop the exponential increase in insurance costs witnessed in the past year or two. Do you fully accept that in terms of the international picture not being too benign for this industry the likelihood of reducing costs is insignificant as it will be only domestic measures that will take the extra amount out of the equation?

Dr. Fingleton

We do not know anything about the investment strategies of Irish insurance companies. It seems insurance companies, internationally, have suffered from the decline in equity markets. They may all have had bad investment strategies. I am not sure whether the Irish ones were more out of line.

We will, in the context of the study, look at the cost base of the insurance industry here. We know that industries that have weak competition are not necessarily high profit industries. Where a company has weak competition, there is always a cost centre for monopoly profits, whether in terms of inefficient management, higher wages than necessary or whatever. In that context the various factors within the industry tend to appropriate the profits and they appear as costs. It does not mean anything for me to hear that a company is not profitable. If there is a competition problem, I merely think that costs have risen.

The report the Deputy referred to comes from the Director of Consumer Affairs with whom we work closely. Our study of the legal profession can be broken down into two issues. The first issue is the fee per service charged by the lawyer. That will be affected by rivalry and the individual structure of the solicitor or barrister's profession. That is an issue we will hit head on in the context of the study of the professions.

The second issue relates to how the legal system is structured, the dual system of solicitors and barristers, the question of direct representation, whether an insurance company can hire a barrister who represents it in court, the court system, the allocation of costs by the taxing master etc. Those structural questions will be hit a little more obliquely by the study in the sense that they are not necessarily markets in which there is a question of entry and rivalry but rather a regulatory system that may, itself, upset competition. We will not ignore those issues. They are important issues that affect the overall structure of the legal profession outside insurance. In that context, the Indecon report which will be published late next week will at least start the ball rolling in terms of a public debate. We have a lot more work to do. It is a complex area.

On pricing and the structure of the market, our general view of high prices and price increases is that we are keen to ensure the market mechanism works to set prices at the right level. If costs rise because of insurance or refuse prices, business will, naturally, want to pass on those costs. A competitive business will have to do so otherwise it will cease operating. It is our general desire to ensure that as costs are passed on so too are cost reductions in terms of lower prices. I will give another analogy. When international oil prices increase, people complain about petrol stations putting up prices. It is when international prices are falling that we have real concerns about what the petrol stations are doing. In that context, our concern about pricing is probably diametrically opposite to that of consumers who see the headline price they are paying at the petrol station. When the price of crude oil falls by 10% and the price at the pumps falls by only 5% the consumer cannot see they are being ripped off. We are concerned to ensure the market mechanism works in that area. We would generally counsel against over-regulatory policies that try to say one must reduce by a particular amount and instead ensure free entry into these markets. If price reductions are not passed on new people will enter the market and deliver to the consumers what they deserve.

I welcome the chairman and his staff to the meeting. They will be very busy given the number of issues they have outlined, in particular those regarding financial institutions and the insurance industry, which hit the pocket more severely than others. I have no doubt everyone agrees there is a great deal of frustration with the insurance industry and I am sure the insurance industry is equally frustrated about the increases in premia in recent years. Will the study include the role of the European Union in the context of generating greater competition in the insurance sector? It was mentioned that Indecon will publish a report in respect of one of the professions in the near future. What other professions will be subject to scrutiny and report? One of the recommendations of the MIAB for dealing with small claims generally and preventing the more expensive route to court is the setting up of the personal injuries assessment board. What is the authority's view of that? Has the authority been asked for a report on any of the recent insurance mergers that have taken place? There have been many mergers, both domestic and led by international and UK concerns, among those companies now quoting for business. Is there a market leader out of the four or five that are actually quoting? Has the authority ever been asked about or has it issued a report in regard to any of the mergers that have taken place before its responsibility in January 2003 became more definitive?

I would like to be associated with the welcome to the members of the Competition Authority. Will Departments be included in the study on insurance? I am thinking particularly of recent claims made against the Department of Defence for Army deafness. The Department was left exposed to many bogus claims, many of which were driven by the legal profession. Is the authority in a position to examine such situations? Allegations were made that individual companies canvassed soldiers, former soldiers and members of the Defence Forces to submit claims against the Department. It was alleged that apart from securing their own fees they also had a percentage cut on the actual claim awarded by the Department. Dr. Fingleton's report states that it is estimated that 42% can be attributed to legal costs on top of compensation. Can the authority examine and make recommendations on this area? Many of us are concerned about this.

Local authorities, while they have their own insurance companies, are a different kettle of fish to the Departments. Many actions taken against them are also dubious. I compliment the Insurance Federation on its recent campaign to try to highlight the number of bogus insurance claims being made. I hope it is successful in that campaign because bogus claims are a scourge in this country. I also hope the Competition Authority will be in a position to assist in that area.

Dr. Fingleton

Deputy Hogan asked about the internal market. There is free movement at the moment in terms of the directives. One of the things we will do in the study is to examine whether there are any additional hidden hindrances. The EU regulation regime is particularly good in the area of insurance relative to other areas where it is sometimes more difficult to do business across national boundaries. The professions will be a counter-example. We have already seen that issue arise with the pharmacists. We are examining eight professions in our study. Two are legal - barristers and solicitors, two relate to construction - architects and engineers and four are medical professions. I lump these four together as medical, vets, dentists, optometrists and doctors.

What about consultants?

Dr. Fingleton

They will come under the doctors. There may be limitations on what comes within our scope in that study. When we started the study it raised a lot of issues we had not expected. As a result, the Indecon report which we had hoped for last November is a few months late. As committee members will see next week, the report is a substantial document. It will have a good deal of material about the legal profession.

While I am talking about the legal profession I will deal with Deputy Nolan's question. Issues to do with the pricing of services and contingency fees would come under our remit and we would look at them. I know there is concern in regard to excess litigation. The idea that one would want to discourage litigation is not obviously right. Litigation can be a good thing. It protects people's rights and it is important that the legal system does not try to push up costs to prevent bad litigation. The outcome of court decisions is what stops bad litigation and alternative mechanisms can be used. In that context, the Personal Injury Assessment Board is a novel idea.

All too often when somebody comes up with a novel idea, it is easy to knock it. People were unimpressed with a levy on plastic bags 18 months ago but it proved successful. We have a lot of difficult and knotty constitutional law problems in this country. The Constitution is good about protecting rights but it often stands in the way of sensible administrative decision making. Just as the Labour Court has managed to bring about enormous benefits in dealing with certain types of claims and bringing them out of the court system, so the PIAB should be given a chance to see if it can do the same for insurance. The High Court is not the right place to resolve every personal injury claim although I know a lot of them settle. They may be much more easily resolved in the context of the PIAB.

Deputy Hogan asked about mergers in the insurance area. There is very little information known to us or anybody else about merger decisions under the previous regime because it was not particularly easy to see what was going on in terms of merger notifications. The authority was to the forefront of those arguing for reform of the system. This reform finally came in January. We are in favour of that. Historically, we have not looked at mergers in the industry. The starting point at which we are at now is that if mergers have been approved and given regulatory approval in the past, there is no prospect of unscrambling the eggs at this stage. Even if they did not get regulatory approval and fell below the notification thresholds, the courts are notoriously reluctant to revisit the issue once a merger has been consummated. This is true in other countries but has not been tried here much. While we may want to have an understanding in the study of how the market structure has developed, our primary concern will be whether the market structure at the moment is competitive and whether there is sufficient force of entry and consumer switching to keep rivalry strong with that level of players. There is no reason in principle why five players cannot deliver competition if they are vying intensely with each other for consumers' business, especially if they are threatened by a new entrant into the market. If it was the case that they were not vying intensely with each other and there was no threat of a new entrant we would have a serious concern about competition. The Deputy's question is fundamental to what we are trying to get at by examining this.

I, too, welcome Dr. Fingleton and his team. It is surprising to hear that this is the first time he has been before this committee. I do not share the view that the notion of a year long study is wonderful. I note that many studies have been done in this area. The Ministers most recent press statement mentioned the Deloitte & Touche report on the economic evaluation of insurance costs, which was published in October 1996, from which a special working group was appointed in December 1996. It reported in 1997 and again in 2001. We seem to have a lot of reports.

Many members have come in contact with the Alliance for Insurance Reform. I attended one meeting in my constituency which was also attended by representatives of 150 or more small and medium sized enterprises, who gave the most honest confession, almost, of their dilemma of any group or lobby I have ever seen. There are hundreds of small companies, which do not know how they will deal with insurance costs in the coming weeks or months. They will not get great comfort from knowing there is another study that will take a year to complete. I do not say that to be in any way critical because the Competition Authority will not be able to supply a panacea.

In order to understand the role of the Competition Authority, following investigations, how many files has it submitted to the DPP? How many prosecutions for breaches of the Competition Acts have been taken to date? Does Dr. Fingleton now feel he has adequate staff to deal with the issues he has presented to us and his authority's other statutory responsibilities? Does the appropriate skills base exist in the present staff? If not, where do deficiencies exist?

Having read all the reports and listened to factual and anecdotal information, it is clear that legal costs are a huge additional burden on insurance premia in this country. According to the paper presented by Dr. Fingleton, litigation can add as much as 42% to costs - I believe that is an MIAB figure. What are we going to do about that? As the Competition Authority is again studying the legal profession, are there any specific short-term proposals based on international practices that we can implement immediately?

The Solicitors (Amendment) Act was passed by these Houses quite recently and I was a member of the committee with responsibility for justice that supported it. Is the implementation of that Act good or bad from a competition perspective, particularly in terms of the banning of advertising by solicitors? Although it may not be in his purview, does Dr. Fingleton have anything to say about lack of consistency in judicial awards? Is it appropriate for the Competition Authority to look at the issue of training and standards for the Judiciary?

Can Dr. Fingleton give the committee an assurance that he will return with the authority's preliminary thoughts on anti-competitive activities that are still prevalent in the insurance industry and specific proposals to deal with them? Some of them are now being dealt with, for example, the timing of premia notification where people felt they got notification of renewals within days of them running out with inadequate time to shop around. Insured people have often found that claims, which they believed in their hearts to be fraudulent, were settled without their input even though they were paying the premia. There are pre-set levels of acceptable insurance payouts so that claims are uncontested below a threshold.

Dr. Fingleton specifically points to the issue of barriers to entry to the insurance market. Has he identified such barriers and can he come to us in the short-term with proposals to address them? What are the views of the Competition Authority on the insurance levy? Is it an anti-competitive device that should be removed or addressed? A system of assigned risk insurance operates in some jurisdictions whereby if somebody cannot get insurance from a number of insurance companies, the regulatory authority assigns an insurance company to provide cover at an aggregate cost that would be available for somebody with those particular circumstances. Whatever about affordable insurance it ensures that actual insurance is available to every citizen.

Because of the large number of questions posed by Deputy Howlin, I will ask Dr. Fingleton to respond and than catch his breath for the next set of questions.

Dr. Fingleton

In response to the Deputy's opening statement, I share his sentiments regarding the huge burden that has been imposed on business by rising insurance premia. When I talk to my colleagues in the UK and the Netherlands, I see this is something that is not unique to Ireland. To the extent that we can do something about it, it is the long-term structural issues that we can address. There is certainly at least enough evidence that there are things we can do.

The Deputy asked about Competition Authority files going to the DPP and other proceedings. The authority sent one file to the DPP in 1998, one file in 1999 and there was one summary prosecution in 2000. In 2001 no files were sent and last year there was one of each. The two files in question are mentioned in our annual report. For various reasons, we are not saying what industries they are because the charges have not yet been laid. The good sign there is that the authority is back on track and sending these files to the DPP. We are sending them under a new law that we feel is much more robust than the 1996 law which raised many difficult legal issues in terms of bringing criminal proceedings and in terms of our rather weak powers. I thank the Members of these Houses for the new Act last year, which I think rectified many of those problems.

The Deputy also asked about our staffing and skill base——

How many prosecutions have there been?

Dr. Fingleton

There has only been one. We brought one summary case, Estuary Oil, in 2000. The DPP has not proceeded with either the 1998 case or the 1999 case and obviously the cases from late last year have not yet got to court. So there has only been one prosecution and that was under the 1996 Act.

Are we highly compliant or just inefficient in tracking breaches of the Act?

Dr. Fingleton

I would say that for a full-scale cartel case it takes two people about one year to complete the investigation. They are highly complex conspiracies involving many parties. The law is new. There are many difficult technical issues. Even when we get the case to the DPP, that office has a further range of questions from its legal perspective of bringing these cases.

Our cartels team was fully staffed from about May or June of last year, or at least 80% staffed which was pretty good compared to what happened previously. So getting two cases out last year was quite an achievement. I think the complexity and scale of them is pretty big. I would point out, for example, in respect of incitement to hatred legislation, I think it was 1987 or 1988 when the Act came in and the first successful prosecution was two years ago, which was then overturned on appeal. With new law it can sometimes take a long time to get the prosecutions into court. I am pleased that under the 2002 Act we initiated two matters in the year of its enactment.

On the staffing and skills base, since this time last year, we have gone from 25 to 38 or 39 people and we have a number of other people arriving later this year. We will shortly advertise for more. That is about as much growth as I want to cope with within the organisation over a 12-month period. While I think there is more work we could do in the longer term, I certainly think that our ability to go out into the market and hire people is always going to be constrained. I see it as a period of building our capacity and skills base within our existing staffing allocation. We have economists, lawyers, forensic investigators, including two gardaí, and administrators as the four main groups within the office.

With regard to the question on legal costs, the PIAB is a response to that and there are also other responses. We cannot march in and say insurance companies should have direct representation, including the employment of barristers, without a detailed analysis of that issue and consultation with all interested parties to ensure we have a good understanding before we make that recommendation. However, as in the case of advertising by solicitors, there is nothing to prevent Ministers and the Houses of the Oireachtas from bringing forward legislation in that regard. On the particular issue of advertising, I question the desirability of banning advertising in any market. All the evidence tends to indicate that advertising is good for consumers. To the extent that consumers are being duped in this market, I would prefer to have measures put in place to stop the hoodwinking of consumers by solicitors, if that is indeed happening. Certainly, one could require solicitors to advertise passively, in terms of being obliged to specify fees for particular services on request or, perhaps, provide for a restaurant type menu outside every law firm, showing the charge for a will and so on. Obviously, some services may be complex.

Dentists are going to do it now.

Dr. Fingleton

I see that as a welcome development and in our study of professions next week there will be reference advertising by dentists. As it is outside our remit to look at training and standards for judges, I will decline that nugget. In these preliminary thoughts on insurance, I am being very cautious not to prejudice our final findings or to damage the co-operation I would like to achieve with the industry in carrying out the study. Some measures have been brought in already, such as the renewal——

I apologise for interrupting, but a vote has just been called and we are not sure what it is.

Will one of the clerks please check the position?

Is Dr. Fingleton setting his face completely against an interim arrangement? A number of measures are in the pipeline from Government. I wonder about the one year time lag, although I fully understand his anxiety to get involved in the issue. Is there not some scope for indicative recommendations, not necessarily of a hard nature, but on issues arising immediately?

Due to a vote in the Dáil, we will have to suspend proceedings until 6.10 p.m. Is that agreed? Agreed. I apologise to Dr. Fingleton for this break in the proceedings.

Sitting suspended at 5.45 p.m. and resumed at 6.08 p.m.

Is Dr. Fingleton satisfied with his reply or is there anything he would like to add?

Dr. Fingleton

I was asked about the understandable desire for an interim report. I am not inclined to give any commitment in that regard.

Dr. Fingleton has been praising the MIAB, which takes the view that there should be an interim report.

Dr. Fingleton

The interim report of the MIAB was not particularly helpful, particularly in comparison with its final report. The information it needed was not available when it produced the interim version. It is possible that the publication of an interim report may have delayed the production of the final report. My preference would be to conduct reasoned analysis before publishing a report. If the desire is for something immediate, it is possible to ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to hire a consulting firm to provide it, but the result would be superficial. Only a root and branch examination of the sector will provide the answers required. If something becomes immediately obvious, it is possible to communicate the fact to the Minister in the context of her legislative reform agenda. As the study is a joint venture with her Department, the Minister's officials are very much part of the group carrying out the study and they will be able to bring proposals to her.

The Minister will attend the committee tomorrow morning.

Is assigned risk insurance to be a mechanism?

Dr. Fingleton

That mechanism exists in terms of motor insurance through the declined cases committee. It happens when a person is refused motor insurance which it is compulsory to have.

It is not quite the same mechanism. This refers to the regulator rather than the industry. In California the state authority is the regulator who chooses and instructs a licensed insurer to make provision for somebody who has been denied legally mandatory insurance by three companies. It is done on a random basis.

Dr. Fingleton

According to my information, the mechanism the Deputy describes is very close to the system operated by the Motor Insurance Advisory Board. If a person is refused by five companies, one of them will be required to make provision. I am not certain a better deal would be forthcoming if a regulator were involved. Regulators impose their own costs on the system.

However, you would get a quote, which is Deputy Howlin's point.

Dr. Fingleton

Yes.

If a person does not receive a quote, where can they go? I am mindful that there will be another vote at 6.45 p.m.

There are five major players in the motor insurance market and three of them control 67% of it. Can we be sure that the five companies are independent or is each one part of a group?

I am told that one company, which I will not name, is offering a 20% reduction for young drivers if they are prepared to take a test that it suggests. Should the national driving test not be the be all and end all, or is the suggestion that it is inadequate fair? This might be acceptable in the case of provisional licence holders, but in the case of drivers who have already passed their test, it is unfair. It is an unusual way to attract business.

In terms of public liability insurance, there is, unfortunately, a culture of compensation here. Court costs mean that insurance companies settle many cases which might not have stood up had they proceeded. I compared quotes from two brothers, one who lives in Scotland and the other who lives here. The Scottish quote was £800 and the quote here was €4,000.

Does the Deputy have those examples for the committee as per our advertisement for submissions last Sunday?

I do not have them today, but I will provide them to the committee. Another unusual quotation I got was from a fellow who was off the road for a year, but had been driving for four years previously. After getting his licence back from the court, he was quoted €15,550, which inclines me to think that the company did not intend to insure him. It would be more decent to tell him. Figures like this makes the public, particularly young people, angry because they feel they are being done, whether that is true or not. I am delighted that this sector is to be investigated by such high powered people. I wish them success.

I join the other members in welcoming Dr. Fingleton. I hope the next time we see him we are all far more informed rather than reliant on hearsay. A friend who deals with sexual harassment tells me that in 99% of cases, those who feel they are being subjected to this behaviour are correct in their assessment. If people feel they are being unjustly treated by insurance companies, it is probable that in 99% of cases they are right.

The lack of transparency and clarity in the industry that is obvious to Dr. Fingleton who has the authority to investigate it, is experienced very definitely by members of the public who attempt to acquire house, public liability and motor insurance. How far is it possible to investigate? We have seen the many reports referred to by Deputy Howlin. Even if it takes Dr. Fingleton a year to produce his report on industry structure, lack of competition and barriers to entry, will there be enough expertise in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the DPP's office to examine its findings and take cases before the courts? Prosecutions brought in this area are usually unsuccessful because of a lack of expertise, which is something Dr. Fingleton can buy.

What competition indicators are there which shout or whisper that a cartel is in operation? Have brokers restricted rather than broadened the market? I have had the average insurance experience of shopping around using the Golden Pages, whereas the majority now use brokers. I am not sure a proper flow of information exists from the insurer through the broker to the customer. How can I be certain the broker does not have an arrangement with the insurer which I am unaware of or that there are no top-up charges in place?

I am aware of the frightening example of a man who has been working for a long number of years under contract as an instrument technician for a large firm in Cork. This year he has been informed that in order to continue working for the firm he must acquire €12,000 worth of employer's liability insurance despite the fact that he employs no one. When he inquired who this covered, he was told that it covered no one. He has no insurance to protect himself and no one works for him, but he still pays €12,000.

The Deputy should make a submission to the committee outlining that example.

There is no risk to the insurer there.

How did the 11 September attacks increase the price of a three piece suite? I can understand that the property market has increased the price of replacing my house if it burns to the ground.

What is the Deputy's question?

How did 11 September increase the price of a three piece suite? The price of house and house contents insurance has increased dramatically without an explanation. The insurance industry is plucking figures out of the air. What confidence does Dr. Fingleton have in the DPP's office and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment in bringing to fruition the cases he brings before them?

Dr. Fingleton

I will try to deal with the questions individually. The data identifying the five players in question, all of which are independent companies, are taken from the MIAB report. We are concerned by the prospect of segmentation, that is, fewer underwriters for certain classes of risk. There are many more brands than players, for example, the Church and General Group includes Hibernian, while Allianz includes Cornhill, ICI and others. Each of the players has a variety of brands.

On the question on young drivers, the MIAB report identified a particular issue with regard to pricing for younger drivers. In the health insurance market, where the costs for young people are in principle lowest, they cross-subsidise old people. They also cross-subsidise older groups in the motor insurance market. I wonder whether this is because they do not vote in sufficient numbers or do not vote with their feet in the market. At any rate, it is ironic. While the risk equalisation scheme in health insurance seems to be a much more egregious insult to young people than motor insurance costs, the same issue applies in both.

That is dreadful. I drafted the legislation in question.

Dr. Fingleton

I could not resist. A question was raised about introducing a more advanced driving test. If insurance companies plan to properly assess the risk - they have means of doing so - we should not stand in the way of such an innovation. It would not necessarily mean that one would have more precise pricing of risk. One of the big difficulties insurance companies have is distinguishing careful from less careful drivers. Electing to do an additional course or showing extra dedication may be a useful indicator of this. I would leave the matter to the actuaries in the insurance companies as they are probably better at such calculations. If the insurance companies are prepared to introduce such measures and average rates fall as a result, even if costs are redistributed across drivers, I would welcome it. I share the Deputy's concerns about the cost of litigation and the matter will be considered in the professions study.

Deputy Lynch raised the issue of consumer perceptions. While I agree that consumers are generally on to something when they complain - this observation is reflected in the complaints we have received - I reiterate my earlier point that a body like ours needs to be most concerned when consumers are not aware they are being ripped off. Consumers will frequently believe they are being ripped off when they are not. I gave the example of rising oil prices internationally and petrol prices increasing at the pumps. While everybody will complain, it is possible that the cause is the threat of war in Iraq rather than an issue on the domestic market about which we could take action. Conversely, when crude oil prices come down, consumers are not as good at identifying whether the margins are low.

Let me take the example of banking. With interest rates in Europe at historically low levels, we do not have a chorus of complaints that interest rate margins are high because consumers may not perceive this to be the case in a low interest rate environment. We need to filter this around what is changing in the market place.

In terms of expertise, the DPP's role is in criminal prosecutions, while we bring cases in the courts in civil prosecutions. There is no difficulty in this regard. Where criminal prosecutions arise, the DPP's office is the body with the state-of-the-art expertise in bringing such cases. We are very happy with our relationship with the DPP's office. A large proportion of cases are brought to trial before juries which is right and proper. This imposes a high burden on us. In most of the issues we deal with there are what are called rule of reason matters which are suitable for civil litigation. These end up in the High Court, rather than in criminal litigation. Our criminal cases are focused on hard core cartels, which brings me to the Deputy's next question about indicators of cartels.

In general, the complaints we receive concern similar pricing arrangements. For example, we might receive a complaint that the price of a product such as 7 Up is the same at every shop in Abbeyleix. This is not particularly good information as it is possible that intense competition in Abbeyleix has driven the price to the bone, there are no margins and everybody is at the same level. On the other hand, it is possible that all the shop owners have got together in Morrissey's and decided to raise the price significantly. This information would be useless to us and we could not go to court with it.

What we would welcome, however, would be information that everybody selling 7 Up in Abbeyleix met in Morrissey's pub last Tuesday night and agreed to raise prices. We would then be on to something as this is useful information about cartels. The people having the meetings do not usually provide this information. However, we have an immunity programme whereby somebody who is participating in a price fixing agreement will receive immunity from prosecution by the DPP when he or she comes to us.

That sounds like a whistleÍblower's charter.

Allow Dr. Fingleton to continue without interruption.

Dr. Fingleton

Deputy Howlin's colleague, Deputy Rabbitte, proposed an amendment to the Competition Bill which inserted whistleblower's protection for individuals within companies who report on the company's wrongdoing. As a result there are two separate provisions. The company or price fixers could approach us with the relevant information or people within the company who are, in principle, protected by the Act could reveal the information to us. We would welcome information from the second source.

In terms of producing a case in court, we have to prove to a jury that the companies in question fix prices, not that prices happen to be the same because they were competing vigorously. This requires that we establish a case in which the standard of proof is beyond reasonable doubt. To do so requires documentary evidence or very strong other evidence given by people who do not have an interest in the case. Since the Gilligan trial, in particular, we prefer to have written documentation where possible.

The study will examine the role of brokers. We are particularly interested in understanding the extent to which brokers are tied or independent. There are a number of ways of tying a broker to an institution. One can sign an exclusivity agreement or offer them rebates or quantity discounts. These provide incentives at the margin to prefer the products of one company to another. In this context, there is an interesting case at the European level. Virgin took a case to the Commission because British Airways was giving commissions to travel agents. The Commission determined that such quantity discounts had the effect of tying travel agents, who were distorting the information they were giving to buyers. There is, therefore, good case law at the European level if similar circumstances were to emerge from our examination of the sector. Deputy Lynch has identified a core issue in terms of our deliberations.

The Deputy also gave the example of a technician who was forced to take out employer's liability insurance, despite not being an employer. Her frustration is not dissimilar to ours at some of the complaints we have received on the insurance side where people are telling us the most extraordinary stories. Sometimes when we press the issue with the complainant we discover they have not searched around much.

There is also considerable evidence in the MIAB report that where people search around they frequently receive better offers. For example, recently at a party I met a woman whose father had died. With the family home vacant, she wanted to get fire and theft insurance for it, but no contents insurance. She was quoted €1,200 by several companies before being informed by a broker that she could add it to the insurance policy on her own house. She did this for €200. Sometimes when people ask questions as consumers they get a better deal.

People often raise competition in petrol with us. Many people do not feel it is worthwhile to fill their cars at cheaper petrol stations although this is usually the case. It is important that measures are introduced to give people greater time to search around when renewing their insurance policies. Information awareness is also important. People should know that they are entitled to switch company and get their money back pro rata from their supplier if they find a better deal a week after renewing their insurance policy. It is not a decision that one can take only once a year, but at any time. We would encourage our colleague's office, the Director of Consumer Affairs and the Minister to engage in that type of consumer activism. Currently consumers are not active across the range of markets at which we looked. It is a chicken and egg situation; if the consumers are prepared to move, the industry will respond. There is no point in me cutting my prices if consumers are not going to react. It is a combination of trying to invigorate competition on the one hand and energise consumers on the other.

In response to the final question in regard to 11 September and three-piece suites, I have to confess that I am not an expert on insurance, but it is my understanding that when an unprecedented event such as that occurs, it goes from being a zero probability event to being a very low probability event. The insurance sector has great difficulty in properly pricing such events. It is difficult to predict whether the probability of a re-occurrence is .001 or .0001, but it makes a huge difference to how much money one needs to put aside. What happens is that, very often, the industry will adopt a conservative approach because the probability has become much higher than it was in the past. As time goes on and there is not a second 11 September one will have a downward or what is called a Bayesian revision and according as new information comes in that will bring that back closer to zero. Actuaries have explained to me that this is how the insurance industry operates. The initial kick-in effect is larger but later there will be a re-adjustment over time. Actuaries in the insurance sector may provide a more coherent response to the question of the effects of 11 September but that is the story we are told and it does not seem terribly unreasonable. It is one of the issues we will be looking at in the international section of our report.

I welcome Dr. John Fingleton, Andrew Rae and Colm Treanor. The contributions have been very interesting. I hope Dr. Fingleton will live up to the expectations everyone has of him in his role of chairman of the authority. He seems to be a ghost-buster in another role or even a member of the A-Team. He has a very good team around him but he is like a politician. He went to a party and he was approached so he will have to live with that particular role as well.

Do you have a question, Senator?

A witness protection programme will be required in order to activate whistle-blowers. I was in touch with Dr. Fingleton's office in regard to the beef industry and while it seemed to be very reluctant to raid the offices of the beef companies it appeared to be more enthusiastic about raiding the offices of the IFA in regard to grain prices. Although there was an investigation into the beef industry monopoly and the probability of price fixing, it is obvious that nobody is going to blow the whistle. Perhaps they meet in Kildare every Tuesday night to set prices. They do not meet in Athleague because if they did we would know about it. I understand they meet in some location but I am not going to be a whistle-blower either. This is an area that has caused great difficulty for farmers. In reality there is no actual competition in the beef industry. That is a fact and the Competition Authority should be most vigilant in this regard.

Price increases were clearly evident when the changeover to the euro occurred. Has the authority carried out a detailed examination of the price increases in that regard? Is there a case to be made for putting a maximum price on unleaded petrol or diesel? When I drove to Dublin today I saw a variety of prices advertised.

We are running out of time.

I know. I will not discuss insurance because we currently have so much research ongoing in this area.

I am delighted the authority has taken over responsibility in regard to merger policy because it is a most difficult issue for the Minister. I oppose any merger between the AIB and Bank of Ireland. It would be the worst move both from the point of view of the consumer as well as employment. I hope that, in advance of any discussions, it is made clear that such a move will not be approved.

Can Mr. Fingleton indicate if there is any comparison between the per unit profit of an insurance company operating in Britain and one operating under the same circumstances here? I have asked people at different meetings about insurance.

The second question borders to some extent on one asked by Senator Leyden. I attended a meeting with the IFA last night and there is no doubt that what a farmer gets for his produce and what is paid by the consumer is having a devastating effect on consumers and farmers. Can Mr. Fingleton give any answers as to why this should be so? For example, there is a mark-up of 400% on a half dozen eggs.

Is the immunity programme which was referred to actually working? Have people come forward?

Thank you. That was a great example of a member getting to the point.

I will try to be as brief as possible. I welcome the members of the Competition Authority. I am sure its chairman is well aware of the statement that all professions are a conspiracy against the public. I do not know how true that may be but there are huge questions in the public domain in regard to insurance costs, the legal profession, refuse collection and petrol prices.

Employer's liability is currently costing jobs. In another line of work I am in contact with the business community and I can assure the committee that within the confines of a square mile of this House many jobs are being lost due to the increase in employer's liability. I have been told that employers would welcome an opportunity to come before the committee and give detailed explanations of how jobs have been lost. The same is true in regard to public liability, which is being paid by people where there is no reason for the public to have access to premises, such as those that are used as storage facilities. One individual said to me that he could have another man on the road for the price of the insurance.

Yesterday I asked for a quote for motor insurance. Last year I had a shop-keeping business and I was quoted in respect of that. Because of my change in circumstances, I asked for a new quote. It was evident that they tried to define how much I could afford. Even though I had a quote they probed me in regard to what I could expect this year in allowances and expenses and how many miles I would cover. I stuck to my guns and said I had already got a quote. This type of behaviour in the industry has to be monitored.

I would be delighted if the Competition Authority would look at how the role of solicitors and barristers might be streamlined. There is currently a price war in my home town in regard to refuse collection, which is welcome. However, I know that will only be a short-term thing and if one person wins out it will be very bad for Thurles. We are currently paying up to €200 less per bin than similar provincial towns and I know that will not last.

In regard to petrol prices, crude oil is currently $40 a barrel. There are 28 imperial gallons in a barrel and 4.54609 litres to the gallon, which is approximately 126 litres per barrel. Since the potential for a Gulf war began there has been an increase at the petrol pump of approximately 20 to 25 cent, which is the equivalent of an increase in the price per barrel of some $30 when, in fact, the price has only gone up from $26 to $40 - in other words the price reflected at the petrol pump has been $26 when the actual increase is only $14. These are major issues and Dr. Fingleton has an important function. His work is very useful and he will be appreciated by the consumer for the work he will do over the next few years.

Dr. Fingleton

In regard to the beef industry, it has been reported in the Irish Farmers’ Journal and other places that the authority has been investigating aspects of that industry. We have come close to completing our investigation in that regard. In that context it is interesting that the IFA has consistently complained to us about cartels in the beef industry while at the same time it appears to support the beef rationalisation scheme which would increase concentration in that industry. I suggest that this is an inconsistency within that organisation, which has also been very critical of us for delaying this scheme when in actual fact, if anything, we are looking after its interests. I have come to the conclusion that it is very difficult to please the IFA even when we are acting in its interests.

The Government has the same problem.

Dr. Fingleton

Chairman——

I could not resist saying that.

Dr. Fingleton without interruption.

Dr. Fingleton

We have had cumulative price increases of almost 20% over a three-year period. People associate the increases with the euro although it has nothing to do with it. It has just served as a focal point. We are living in a period of moderately high inflation and even if we did not have the euro there would be concern about prices because, on average, everything is 20% more expensive than it was within relatively recent memory.

The Forfás study highlighted that certain commodities, particularly domestically produced ones such as eggs and potatoes and some seasonal and non-seasonal ones, were much more expensive in shops in Ireland than in other countries. This is very interesting. We thought we might be able to do a study on food distribution this year, although we do not have the capacity. We would like to know more about what is going on in that sector. However, there is a limit to how many pies we can bake at one time and we are trying to focus our resources on particular ones. I have outlined the basis on which we choose these.

I cannot accept the invitation to pronounce in advance my views on any particular merger. The High Court would, no doubt, be displeased if we showed ourselves to be prejudiced on the issue. Last July or August, when AIB and Bank of Ireland proposed a joint venture on information technology, the authority was instrumental in an Article 9 request to bring the case back to Ireland. That deal was withdrawn when that request became known. We are vigilant and wish to examine carefully and with an open mind any proposal to merge in any industry, particularly if we think there could be serious competition implications.

In response to Deputy Dempsey's question, there is no per-unit comparison of the costs. The difficulty with doing price comparisons in the insurance industry, particularly in terms of liability, is the question of the excess. There is considerable evidence that excess has been increasing. This means that firms are insured for very large claims, but are self-insured for their smaller claims. If one increases the excess one is buying less insurance, but this is not obvious in the price. Moreover, it is not obvious how prices can be compared across either countries or time, thus leading to considerable difficulty.

Why would that be the case in a comparison between Belfast and Dublin?

Dr. Fingleton

Consider a case in which exactly the same business is in operation in Belfast and Dublin. If the Dublin business settles claims under €10,000 itself and the insurance company settles its claims above that amount and if the business in Belfast settles claims below €5,000 itself and the insurance company settles claims above that amount, it becomes very difficult to compare the prices both businesses are paying and to work out the net margin of the insurance company. In one sense, one is buying two very different levels of insurance.

If the excess is €10,000 in each area, why should the premium in one area be double that in the other? That is the point made by Deputy Dempsey.

Dr. Fingleton

Our preliminary information suggests that the differences in the liability insurance increases in Ireland compared to those in the UK are much more pronounced than the similarities. Both countries have had enormous increases, at least 50% in the UK, but excesses have increased in the UK so the analysts are finding it very difficult to calculate the exact increase. One needs to compare like with like. Anecdotal evidence suggests that the ballpark figure has increased by at least 50%, but we do not have definite figures. We hope the study will point out if there is a difference and we will try to shed light on whether there is a difference between the net margin here and in the UK. Our immunity programme is active and we are happy with how it is working.

Senator Hanafin asked about mileage. Insurance companies are asking people about their mileage, which could be a very good proxy for measuring risk. Stationary cars are probably less prone to causing accidents than mobile ones. I drive about 3,000 to 4,000 miles per year and would benefit enormously from more precise pricing. However, my parents, who live in the country and drive 25,000 to 30,000 miles per year, and members from places such as Thurles, Wexford and Cork who clock up considerable mileage, are obviously at higher risk. Therefore, it is reasonable for insurance companies to be asking about mileage.

My question concerned the fact that the insurance company probed to see how much mileage I was paid expenses on.

Dr. Fingleton

Complaints of that kind would be better taken up with the Director of Consumer Affairs because it seems to be a consumer issue.

Refuse collection in Thurles is an issue of which I am aware. I will say no more on the subject for the moment, nor will I discuss the conclusions of our substantial work on petrol prices. However, I will be able to talk to the committee about work we have done on refuse, petrol and beef once I am in a position to make the results of our investigations public.

Notwithstanding that the Competition Authority and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment are co-sponsors of this study, has Mr. Fingleton a view on whether the Department should be involved at all as a regulator of the insurance industry?

Is it inconsistent to have both the Department, which makes policy, and the independent Competition Authority conducting this investigation? We know the Department has a unique role in relation to competition policy but, at another level, it is a regulator. Is there a design flaw in the joint study?

Dr. Fingleton

No. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has two very distinct roles in insurance, namely, a policy role and a regulatory role. We are doing the study with the policy division of the Department.

Mr. Andrew Whitaker, who is in the Visitors' Gallery, wrote an article when we announced the joint study stating that the authority had traded influence for independence. It was a clever headline, but I disagree with him. We are maintaining our independence.

Dr. Fingleton should refrain from mentioning people who are not in a position to defend themselves.

(Interruptions).

Dr. Fingleton without interruption.

If Dr. Fingleton is to make recommendations for legislative action, there will be an inconsistency because the Department, even the policy division, will have its own organic view of legislation in this area. Will he address that?

Dr. Fingleton

The primary purpose of our study is to inform us about the industry. I do not see an inconsistency in terms of the Department's wishing to be informed. I have received the assurance of the Department that our independence and the recommendations we wish to make about competition will not be compromised by this study. I stand over that. The one thing that I will guard above all else is the independence of the authority from that type of influence. It is useful to note, in terms of resources and the ongoing structural issues, that competition has an important role to play in the delivery of the benefits of the other structural reforms. Therefore, it is important that we are up to date with the thinking of the Department. It would be undesirable if we were to produce a study that did not fit well with the Department and meant that it was not well informed.

I am happy with the approach we have adopted, which is novel. We will assess it when the study is concluded to see if we are prepared to use it again either with our own parent Department or another. I am happy to conduct a joint study as an innovation and it is the first time we have done so. When it is finished, I will happily report back to the committee and outline if its fears were justified.

If we were cynical about this issue, the reason this committee is investigating this is because the Department has failed as a regulatory authority.

I do not want this meeting to end without making an observation that has nothing to do with insurance. I will have much to say on another occasion about waste issues. Dr. Fingleton has told us he is engaged in a study in this area. Waste management goes well beyond a normal industry. Members will be aware that the Health Research Board published a substantial paper on the health impacts of waste management. How the Competition Authority will evaluate the health implications of a regulated area such as waste management will be a difficult task. It is a complicated area that will make even the insurance industry look straightforward.

We will, no doubt, meet with Dr. Fingleton and the authority in the future and allow them to respond to those issues. I thank Dr. John Fingleton, chairman of the Competition Authority, Mr. Colm Treanor and Mr. Andrew Rae for meeting with us today. I look forward to meeting with the authority again. This meeting was informative and I wish the authority well in its deliberations during the lifetime of this Dáil. I assure the delegation that we will work as hard as we can in the national interest.

Dr. Fingleton

I thank members for their kind comments and thoughtful questions.

I remind members that the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, will meet the committee tomorrow morning to make a presentation on insurance market reforms.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.55 p.m. until 9.20 a.m. on Wednesday, 5 March 2003.
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