Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 3 Feb 2009

Tesco Ireland.

We are a couple of minutes late and I apologise to the witnesses. I thank them for attending as I know they have a busy schedule. We also have a busy schedule and it is probably busier than expected due to events overnight. I ask the witnesses to be as brief as possible in summarising their submission. We have allotted five minutes for each submission but there will be an opportunity for questions afterwards.

I draw attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I see the former Minister and Deputy, David Andrews, in the public Gallery. He is very welcome as an observer to the meeting.

I welcome Mr. Tony Keohane, chief executive of Tesco Ireland. He is accompanied by corporate affairs director, Mr. Dermot Breen.

Mr. Tony Keohane

I thank Deputies and Senators for the opportunity to address them. As a retailer we are committed to offering consumers quality products at the best prices with the widest choice. This is achieved through a range of store formats that are appropriate to the local communities we serve. They range from Extra stores to our main street Express stores like the one in Camden Street, not too far from here.

In total, Tesco Ireland operates 117 stores and our business has grown every year since 1997. We now employ 14,000 people directly in stores, offices and depots throughout the country, while an additional 14,000 people are indirectly employed to supply and support the business. We look after customers through 2 million shopping trips every week and we contribute more than €2.5 billion to the Irish economy annually. We also export more than €655 million of Irish food and drink to the Tesco Group every year.

Since we last appeared before this committee four years ago, we have opened more than 40 new stores in communities around Ireland. In the last 14 months alone we have created more than 1,500 new jobs. This has included more than 400 new jobs in Mayo, 200 new jobs in Louth, more than 180 new jobs in Kildare, 100 in Meath, 80 in Cavan and some 100 in Carlow.

We are the largest employer in some towns and many communities see a Tesco store as the best chance they may have to get an inward investment project that creates jobs, protects other jobs in the community and drives the development of the town. We are often approached by communities asking us to open in their area because people see it as good for competition, jobs and so forth. We listen to these consumers and communities and we see if we can invest in land and buildings in their areas by opening new stores.

Some members might have seen the Roscommon Herald of two weeks ago. It reported that a local councillor in Castlerea, along with housewives from the town, had gathered 1,200 signatures in a petition for a Tesco for the town. Towns like Abbeyfeale, Mitchelstown, New Ross, Youghal, Roscommon, Bailieborough, Nenagh, Cashel, Kilrush, Carrick-on-Shannon, Wexford and others that have been the recent beneficiaries of Tesco shops have all told us of the positive difference they have made. Prior to our arrival, people would travel 30 km or 40 km to do their weekly shop. A good store has the potential to regenerate a town, keeping shopping local, making a town sustainable and benefiting the environment by reducing travel distances.

I would like to share a testimonial with members which we received from Mitchelstown, County Cork, about the benefits Tesco has brought to that community. Tom Whelton of the Mitchelstown Forum said:

There was concern about the potential impact on the future of other smaller retailers and while this argument has not completely gone away, the overall positive impact on the economic life of Mitchelstown cannot be refuted.

Tesco has proven to be a good employer, the leakage of retail sales out of the town has been significantly reduced and two further food multiples have invested in Mitchelstown since Tesco's arrival. Indeed, as the body representing community, commercial and other organisations, the Mitchelstown Forum would welcome further retail development.

As Tom Whelton said so well in his words from Mitchelstown, new Tesco stores bring competition and choice. More importantly, new Tesco stores help people to shop locally. New stores localise shopping and reduce the leakage of consumers to other towns. They cut down on travel distances — and therefore carbon emissions — for weekly shopping.

In December 2008 we opened a new store in Cashel, County Tipperary. On opening the store, an exit survey of 1,000 customers highlighted the fact that, prior to the opening of the store, 60% of them had previously shopped in Clonmel, Tipperary or Thurles. More than 40% of them used to travel more than 32 km to complete their weekly shopping. With a new store on their doorstep, people in Cashel can shop locally and avoid travelling long distances for their weekly shopping. By investing in towns like Cashel, Mitchelstown, Bailieborough or Claremorris and providing the modern shopping facilities consumers need, we can localise shopping and help revive these towns as trading centres. At the same time, we can positively change current travel patterns and reduce the length and duration of car journeys.

Irish rural populations who use these stores depend almost wholly on private cars for shopping, particularly for food shopping. They use these supermarkets for weekly or fortnightly shopping where they are looking for maximum value. Our Express stores like those in Parnell Street or Camden Street in Dublin are also part of the equation but the diverse nature of the market in Ireland requires a mix of stores to meet different consumer and community needs.

Last autumn we opened our first eco store in Tramore, County Waterford. Designed to the highest environmental standards, it is a blueprint for the stores of the future. A timberframe store, it uses 45% less energy than a conventional supermarket of a similar size and will save 420 tonnes of carbon each year, the equivalent to the amount that 2,500 homes would produce in a single year. This is a significant signpost for our plan to reduce our carbon footprint, through which we can also help consumers reduce their carbon footprint.

It is with that background of new store openings that we have been invited to appear before the committee to give our views on the retail planning guidelines and their impact on our new store development. We develop our stores by looking at consumer needs, local demographics, site availability and land costs. Once we open, there is no town where we do not increase consumer choice and competition resulting in lower prices. We also bring benefits in facilitating recycling. We engage actively with local planners and communities to determine what will work best for the locality and we work within the planning regulations and structures.

It may come as a surprise to the committee, despite what others may say, that the majority of our existing stores, some 68%, are located in town centres, that is seven out of every ten of our stores. This is more than any of our competitors. In fact, 95% of our stores are either town-centre, edge-of-centre or out-of-centre, and not out-of-town as many believe.

We welcome the opportunity to continue to develop new stores in town centres and wherever we develop, we do so in consultation with the local planning authority. We would seek to continue to develop in town centres where sites can be found and provided it does not add to existing traffic congestion problems, both of which can be severe limitations. That is why there also needs to be scope for edge-of-centre and out-of-centre developments.

Without this scope, some communities and consumers will not benefit from retail investment and all the positives this brings, such as new competition for long-standing incumbents, consumer choice, lower prices and most especially in these challenging times, jobs. Proximity, accessibility and convenience for consumers are important factors to consider. Communities and the economy generally would benefit from resources being directed to improve the pace of planning decisions. However, with a reported slowdown in planning applications, this may well arise.

I urge the committee to reaffirm policies that foster and promote these outcomes. Any move towards further restriction on size or location in the guidelines will inhibit investment, job creation, consumer choice, and lower prices.

Consumers and communities would benefit from a refocusing of the existing guidelines which might allow for speedier decision making, more suitably zoned sites in and near towns, more weight given to the views of local professional planners, more recognition for the role of consumers in the process, and recognition of many planning objections for what they are — in many cases purely commercially and competitively driven.

I would now welcome any questions.

I thank Mr. Keohane.

I welcome the Tesco presentation. If Mr. Keohane would furnish the committee with his definition of "town centre", "edge-of-centre", "out-of-centre" and "out-of-town", it would be helpful to our deliberations. While 68% of Tesco stores are located in town centres, of the 40 new stores opened in recent years how many fall into the category of town centre, edge-of-centre or out-of-centre?

I do not have a difficulty with the operations of Tesco Ireland but I am concerned about its parent company in England and the way it would operate in an unfettered planning environment if we removed this cap. Last week we visited developments in Banbridge and we have also received a number of submissions from communities in England about the substantial impact of out-of-town shopping centres and clone stores. The New Economics Foundation states: "Clone stores have a triple whammy on communities: they bleed the local economy of money, destroy the social glue provided by real local shops that holds the community, and they steal the identity of our towns and cities." That cannot be done here because of the cap. Does Mr. Keohane have a view on removing this specific cap or is he happy to operate within the current system?

Mr. Tony Keohane

We are here to speak about Tesco Ireland and Tesco's operations in the Republic of Ireland. That is our area of accountability and responsibility. Our group recognises that Ireland is a different jurisdiction with dissimilar demographics and communities. We are happy to work with planning authorities to be directed to the most suitable sites in towns and communities.

I too welcome the representatives of Tesco. I take it the reference in their submission to "speedier decision making" means the planning process and appeals to An Bord Pleanála. How do they envisage such a process? The submission also states: "Recognition of many planning objections for what they are (in many cases purely commercially and competitively driven)". This statement neglects the fact that many small retailers live over their shops in towns and villages, as well as ignoring the issue of sustainable development. Some people hold the ideological opinion that towns should be created around shopping centres and retail outlets located not on the edge of town but in town centres. A caveat is needed to the phrase "purely commercially and competitively driven" because some people object to Tesco stores on the grounds of sustainable development.

Other people are concerned about the degree to which farmers are suffering and the costs of importing food. I can visit Tesco stores to purchase beans which are imported from Kenya or asparagus from Peru. Our agricultural and horticultural centres could be growing these products and Tesco would gain greater consumer support by sourcing locally. This is particularly pertinent in the context of climate change and reducing food miles. Greater support could be offered to local and artisan food. Especially given the economic downturn, people are crying out for some way to work at home to produce goods that Tesco stores could sell. As someone with experience of the retail sector, I have heard anecdotal evidence of the difficulty of putting local produce on supermarket shelves and I would like to hear the representatives' opinion on this.

Mr. Tony Keohane

We are massive supporters of Irish agriculture. Every year we facilitate the export of €655 million of Irish food and drink to our international businesses and we actively support the procurement and sale of Irish products. Last year we organised road shows in Galway, Limerick and Cork in order to seek out local producers and commit to stocking their products provided they meet the requirements. We are still actively pursuing that policy and, if members can assist us in identifying local producers, we would be more than happy to respond.

On the question of decision making, I was referring to it being absolutely clear that the democratic process allows people to submit objections, particularly if they live locally and feel our proposed development in some way impacts on them. As I stated earlier, we work very closely with the local authorities because we do not want to waste time and our money in pursuing something that is not suitable locally. We also must judge that whatever we bring, whether it be a small or a medium-sized shop, is fit for purpose in that community.

What I am looking for here would help the cost equation. It can take us up to seven years to get a store from initial site identification right through the planning process which is an incredibly long period of time. So much changes in those seven years that anything the committee could do to help us see that process speeded up without removing the democratic rights of people would be helpful.

There are many examples of planning objections by our competitors to slow the process up. There is no doubt about that. Tesco is at the receiving end of that more than anybody else. That is a fact.

Mr. Keohane stated that the cap inhibits investment and lower prices. Could he explain that comment?

Mr. Tony Keohane

I did not say that.

He did. He stated the cap inhibits investment.

Mr. Tony Keohane

No. I stated any further restrictions would inhibit investment.

Does he consider the current cap to be restrictive?

Mr. Tony Keohane

No.

Therefore, Mr. Keohane is happy to live within it.

In terms of development, what would be Tesco's optimum store size in square metres? Many people have concerns, to which Deputy White alluded, about the environmental sustainability of developing out-of-centre stores. Would Mr. Keohane comment on that?

He stated that 14,000 people are employed by Tesco in the State. Can he indicate how many of those 14,000 positions are full time and part time?

I think Mr. Keohane corrected the comment that Tesco has the lowest prices in Ireland. Tesco has the lowest prices in this State, he might claim. There are a couple of stores near my home that are in Ireland but are not——

A Member

That is tomorrow's discussion.

We shall wait until tomorrow.

In fairness, the gentlemen are here today to discuss planning guidelines.

Mr. Tony Keohane

On the optimum size, because we are multi-format, as I described earlier, our optimum size is what suits the local community and the local area. The optimum for one town is not the optimum for another. That is why we are quite reluctant to average things out because there is not an average Irish town, village or community. It is whatever we, obviously with the approval of the local authority, deem as appropriate for that location.

In terms of employment, I do not have a figure off the top of my head but we have 14,000 people employed. My guess would be a 60:40 ratio of full-time to part-time jobs, but I do not know what the number is.

Mr. Dermot Breen

Under law we are not permitted to discriminate between full-time and part-time workers. We must treat them in the same way under law.

To take up the point about the environmental sustainability of out-of-town stores, we have been showing that most or practically all of the stores we have opened in recent years, some of which are town centre, some of which are edge-of-centre, and just two or three out-of-centre, have had a major impact on sustaining towns. In all cases we moved into towns where anything up to 40% or 60% of consumers would leave the town, driving perhaps 30 miles to do their weekly shopping. With a store now in their locality, such as that in Cashel which is located just outside the town, it means people are travelling less than a mile to do their shopping instead of travelling 30 miles. That has kept shopping local within the Cashel area rather than Cashel consumers disappearing into Clonmel, Tipperary or elsewhere. That has had a major impact on the sustainability of Cashel as a district, area and town.

I thank the gentlemen for their contribution. Perhaps they could give us an idea of the most important factors in Tesco deciding on a location. My own experience would be in the urban context of Dublin city and its surrounds. For instance, Clare Hall is located within a couple of miles of two other major shopping centres. While there is residential development taking place around it, much of it was prompted by the store. Is parking an issue? I am aware that a substantial number of parking places is provided at Clare Hall. What are the main factors in the location of a store in a particular area?

Mr. Tony Keohane

At Clare Hall specifically?

No, in general.

Mr. Tony Keohane

As I stated, much depends on the community we are attempting to serve. We must consider what would be an appropriate store for it. What is most important to us, with regard to location, is consumer convenience and the consumer agenda at a particular location. That is absolutely critical. Also, we must take on board planning authority guidelines, but the single most important aspect for us is the consumer agenda and convenience in terms of whether people will shop at that location. We know from experience that consumers will vote with their feet. If we are not doing a good job and the store or site is not convenient, they will go somewhere else, as is their right.

Is 24-hour shopping proving to be an attraction?

Mr. Tony Keohane

It is at some locations. While we have adjusted opening hours at some locations, 24-hour shopping is popular in particular localities. However, it is not suitable at all locations.

Is the issue covered in the planning application?

Mr. Tony Keohane

No, it is more consumer driven. A retail store of reasonable size is a 24-hour operation with goods arriving at convenient times, thus avoiding traffic congestion at rush hour and so on. If there is consumer interest in moving to a 24-hour retail operation, that is not a huge step for us. Where it is convenient for customers, we generally provide it.

My apologies for missing the start of the presentation. Most of the questions I wished to ask have been asked.

On store size, I get the impression from Mr. Keohane's written submission and his comments that he believes a better price can be delivered by a larger store. Perhaps he will explain if that is the case.

Mr. Keohane referred to the optimum size of a store. What is the average size of Tesco stores throughout the Republic? I understand Mr. Keohane is representing Tesco Ireland. As part of our work, we have had discussions on this issue with our counterparts in the North. I understand Tesco has applied for permission to construct a 130,000 sq. ft. outlet in Banbridge which will impact on retailers along the Border. I am interested in Mr. Keohane's comments on the matter. An outlet of 130,000 sq. ft. is not required to serve a local town with 20,000 people. There must be a bigger agenda involved. Perhaps Mr. Keohane will also comment on this matter. I am sure Tesco is in negotiations with its parent company in this regard, an issue on which he may also wish to comment. It is one we must factor into our discussions as regards guidelines in the Border region.

I accept 70% of Tesco stores are located in town centres. Is it Tesco's desire to remain in town centres? If so, does Mr. Keohane believe planning authorities need to adjust the cap for town centre developments or is he happy with the guidelines? Does he believe the cap should vary to take account of town size and so on? He has stated Tesco does not wish to suck people from certain towns and that it is preventing leakage. What is the smallest town in which Tesco currently has or would locate a store?

Each multiple will state it intends to create jobs. Data provided for us this morning showed that there had been no change during the past couple of years in the percentage of people employed in the retail sector. Currently, 14% are employed in the sector. That leads me to believe jobs are being displaced, although I accept new ones are created and some people lose out. Is it the case that the same percentage of the workforce is employed in the retail sector as previously? That is what the data suggest. If the delegates do not have all the answers, we can get them another time.

We were in Banbridge where I think there is 30,000 sq. ft. of retail space in the town centre and there are negotiations on a figure of 60,000 sq. ft. Banbridge is a huge retail centre. There is a proposal in respect of a retail unit of 130,000 sq. ft. well outside the town. What informs decisions on such developments? This gives a total of 190,000 sq. ft. The 130,000 sq. ft. development would not result in any crushes because if everyone in Banbridge were to visit simultaneously, each person would have four sq. ft. As Deputy English suggested, it would be like a giant hoover on the town; people would be pulled from a huge hinterland. I understand it is preferable for people to travel half a mile or a mile to shop, rather than 20 or 30 miles. How will this fit in because I know it is the first Tesco Extra store to be planned? I know this is not strictly the responsibility of the delegates but surely Tesco Ireland is involved in such discussions because it may impact upon it. Will this development impact upon Tesco stores in Dundalk and so on?

Mr. Tony Keohane

No. As I said, that is not our jurisdiction and we do not think about it when we get up in the morning. The planning guidelines we are discussing do not relate to Northern Ireland, Great Britain or any of the other 12 or 13 countries in which Tesco operates. We are talking about the Republic of Ireland and can only answer questions relating to our area of responsibility.

With respect, we are talking to our colleagues north of the Border about the guidelines to find some common ground. An issue relating to 130,000 sq. ft. of retail space must feature in Tesco Ireland's thinking. This will suck business from Tesco in Border areas.

Mr. Tony Keohane

We never discussed it and I was not even aware of it.

Mr. Dermot Breen

The Deputy is referring to something, of which we are not aware.

Mr. Tony Keohane

That project is alien to us and we have no information on it.

Mr. Dermot Breen

We have enough information on our plate.

Now that the delegates know about it, do they share the concerns regarding the possibility that it will not serve local towns?

Mr. Tony Keohane

All I know is that Tesco's people, no matter where they are, will work with local authorities in the jurisdiction in which they are involved. We will work with local and national planning authorities in this jurisdiction. That is all I can say.

I accept that. This is an important issue, to which we will return.

Mr. Dermot Breen

It is a different jurisdiction that has nothing to do with us.

Mr. Tony Keohane

Earlier I addressed a question on average sizes and so on. Tesco is a multi-format business with small, medium and large stores and we do not think in terms of averages. We are anxious to have appropriate stores in appropriate communities and our smallest stores are around 2,500 sq. ft. in places such as Castlepollard and small residential areas of Dublin such as Camden Street which hosts a store of 2,000 sq. ft. Our distribution network in Ireland means we can supply small, medium and large stores.

My principal question was related to the impact of stores north of the Border, an issue with which Deputy English has dealt. Notwithstanding the response of the delegates, I would be very surprised if store planning was not conducted on an all-Ireland basis, as I worked with a cross-Border organisation. However, I understand what the delegates are saying and why they are saying it.

Has Tesco Ireland ever objected to a planning application by a competitor or is it company policy never to do so?

Mr. Tony Keohane

It is our company practice not to do so. The only time we would do so is if somebody applied to locate a store right beside us. Until we understood the nature of the scheme and any interaction affecting traffic flows into our store, we might reserve our position but we have never followed through on an objection to any competitor in the State.

Can Mr. Keohane comment on the notion that out-of-town centres have advantages over outlets in town centres because of the cost of rent and car parking in the latter? He said seven out of ten Tesco outlets were in town centres. I am from Kildare and believe Tesco has a distribution centre in Kilcock. It has several shops in the county — in Maynooth, Naas, Clane and other towns. Does Mr. Keohane describe the stores in those towns as being in the town centres?

Mr. Tony Keohane

I would describe our current store in Naas as edge-of-centre, as I would the stores in Newbridge and Maynooth.

Mr. Tony Keohane

The store in Clane is also at the edge of town.

Does he include those among the seven out of ten which are located in town centres?

Mr. Dermot Breen

It depends on the planning definition of a town centre. We do not define what is or is not the town centre — it is determined by the planners.

If that part of town is designated as the town centre, Tesco refers to its store as a town centre store.

Mr. Tony Keohane

We are trying to deal with the perception that all we ever wanted was to have out-of-town stores because that is not our position. Our position is to work with the local and planning authorities to determine the best location for the store appropriate to that town. There are advantages both ways. If the desire is to maintain and develop town centres the stores must be convenient for consumers because otherwise they would go somewhere else. We know from our experience over the years that consumers will bypass a town or shopping centre, whether it is at the edge of a town, out of town or in town, if it is not convenient. We can plan whatever we like but if it does not pass the consumer test, it is no good.

If Tesco is in a town centre it will attract people to the town and that will benefit all the other retailers in the town.

Mr. Tony Keohane

That is not necessarily true and one must consider each town individually. The bigger the town the more questionable the assumption is. Consumers will not travel from home at the edge of town to town centres to do their normal bulky grocery shop every week. They will object and drive to the next town, even if it means travelling further. We have replaced stores when customers have decided to bypass them and drive on to the next town.

Did the Competition Authority consult Tesco, formally or informally, for its report on the retail planning cap?

Mr. Dermot Breen

It has prepared various reports and surveyed us for data, as it did all retailers. It assembled its data from surveys of all the retailers.

Did it consult Tesco specifically on planning guidelines?

Mr. Dermot Breen

No, our input consisted purely of data submission.

Will Tesco accept that there is an impression that large multiples at the edge of town can draw out smaller businesses? The witnesses seem to have research that shows the opposite but can they make the evidence available to the committee?

Mr. Tony Keohane

We will do so.

We want to take a balanced look at the issue and there is a big difference between that research and the evidence of other parties. It is a fundamental issue and we must get to the bottom of it. We all want to protect existing town centre businesses and displacement does not serve anyone's interest.

I thank Mr. Keohane and Mr. Breen for appearing before the committee, assisting in its deliberations and fielding some incisive questions in a frank and forthright fashion, which we deeply appreciate. If there is any other material they wish to submit in the context of our overall deliberations we would appreciate if it was furnished to the committee in order that we have a fair and balanced view of the position. We appreciate the delegation giving of its time and helping the committee in its deliberations. Given that the delegates are returning tomorrow they are gluttons for punishment. People are entitled to the utmost respect and we hope they appreciate that.

Mr. Tony Keohane

Thank you, Chairman.

Tesco has called that votáil to get rid of us. In any event we shall see the delegation tomorrow. When our deliberations are completed and the report is completed of course the delegates will receive a copy. I thank the delegation for its assistance. I do not blame Tesco for calling the vote, that was said in jest.

Sitting suspended at 2.40 p.m. and resumed at 3 p.m.
Barr
Roinn