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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT (Sub-Committee on Job Creation Through Use of Renewable Energy Resources) díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Jul 2009

Renewable Energy Resources: Discussion.

I now welcome another delegation. I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I ask that the presentations should take about ten minutes as we try to ascertain more by way of questions.

Mr. Fergus Wheatley

I am the current chairman of the Sustainable Energy Association. I run a small renewable energy business called Allied Solar Limited, which is based in Coolock. I am interested in a number of small renewable energy technologies, including small wind, heat pumps, biomass and solar technologies. As my expertise is in solar technology, most of this presentation will focus on that. The same principles apply across the other technologies.

I will give the committee some background information about the Sustainable Energy Association. It was established approximately 18 months ago to represent the renewable energy sector in Ireland. It is a conduit of communication between governmental bodies, including such bodies in Northern Ireland, and installers and suppliers.

I propose to speak about three topics — the benefit of green-collar jobs to the economy, the banana skins for the industry and the ideas that will help the industry to grow. Approximately 80% of the cost of each renewable energy solution stays in Ireland. Depending on the sector, some raw materials, such as wood pellet boilers and solar panels, have to be imported. In Ireland, the cost of importing such materials is generally a small fraction of overall installation costs, which comprise the cost of distribution, warehousing, wholesale sales, local sales, delivery, administration and the actual installation. The benefit of this work is spread throughout the economy. It does not just benefit one geographical area. The work is undertaken by local tradesmen, whose expenditure benefits local economies. Kingspan Thermomax, Glen Dimplex and Potterton Myson are among the companies that are manufacturing in Ireland for the export market. This sector is likely to experience significant growth as energy prices rise.

I wish to speak about the banana skins for the industry. The effect of poor-quality installations that do not perform is by far the biggest threat for the industry. If this happens, the industry will get a bad name and will stay small. When Portugal and Greece embarked on solar water heating programmes just after the oil shock of the 1970s, Greece maintained and enforced installation standards, but Portugal was not as stringent. Today, less than 1% of Portuguese homes use solar energy, whereas 30% of Greek homes are equipped with solar panels. To date, Sustainable Energy Ireland has done an excellent job on installation standards. The stop-start nature of the provision of grants is the second most serious banana skin. If the industry is to survive into 2010, it is imperative that the current grant levels are maintained. Any reduction in grant aid should be gradual, planned and irreversible. It should not start until oil prices increase.

I will give an example of how things should not be done. In March of this year, Sustainable Energy Ireland announced the introduction of a new home installation grant and invited suitable companies to join the register. As a result, companies that had full order books suddenly found that all their orders were cancelled by customers who decided to wait to get the new grant. The companies in question had no work during the two months it took for the scheme to be rolled out.

Let me outline some initiatives that could help the industry. A VAT rate of 0% on improved products installed by approved installers should be supported. It would be counter-productive to allow any so-called renewable energy product with a green badge to suddenly benefit from a VAT rate of 0% because we need equipment to be approved. Carbon taxes should be supported. Even low values based on international carbon prices give an important market signal. Building the energy rating component into existing or future property taxes at commercial rates would further encourage energy efficiency and renewable energy expenditure. A business expansion scheme should be adopted to include new renewable energy companies. Zero-interest business loans, such as those pertaining to the UK Carbon Trust scheme, should be available. There should be decent feed-in tariff levels. The levels in Ireland at present are too low.

Offering a VAT rate of 0% on approved products installed by an approved installer has a number of advantages. It is technology neutral; it can be rolled out quickly for new technology or products without effecting budgets; it is easy to implement; and it serves as a significant incentive to installers to keep standards high because their being removed from the list would mean they would be subject to a major price disadvantage.

A carbon tax of €20 per tonne adds approximately 5.5 cent to the cost of 1 litre of home heating oil or diesel but would give an excellent signal in terms of the likely rise in the cost of energy.

With regard to property taxes, commercial rates could be reduced if a good BER rating were achieved. This would encourage BER assessment and energy-efficiency improvements. If a domestic property tax were introduced, a sliding discount based on the BER level achieved would be very helpful and would send an important signal to the market.

At present, the business expansion scheme is focused on expert-led goods and services in specific industries. Since renewable energy offsets emissions from imported fossil fuels, expanding the business expansion scheme to include companies in both the provision of and support for renewable energy technologies would help Ireland's balance of payments.

The UK Carbon Trust is now lending enterprises as much as £400,000 or as little as £3,000 in interest-free unsecured loans. Loans are repaid over a period of up to four years and many of the borrowers have found their energy savings are higher than the repayments.

With regard to feed-in tariffs, the current level is 19 cent per kilowatt hour for the first 3,000 units. This is still too low to encourage widespread uptake of electricity-producing technologies such as small wind turbines and photovoltaics. In the United Kingdom, the rates are 36 p per kilowatt hour for small photovoltaic systems up to 4 kW and 28 p per kilowatt hour for systems up to 10 KW. There is a rate of 23 p per kilowatt hour for small wind turbines between 1.5 kW and 15 kW but payback on a good windy site at such a rate would take approximately five years.

Oil production peaked in July 2008 and we are on the downward slope. We will, therefore, have high oil prices in the future. If the committee members have any ideas as to what to introduce in this regard, we would like them to talk to us about them.

As with many sectors in the economy, ours is finding it very difficult to do business at present. Customers are worried about money for the next year and are not easy to convince when faced with payback periods of five years and more. My business has experienced a downturn of approximately 40% by comparison with last year. We are at a level where we must choose between deferring wages and paying for stock. Having spoken to other colleagues in the industry, I note we are more or less all in the same boat. Our focus, now, is on surviving 2009. Are there any questions?

I thank Mr. Wheatley and call Deputy Mary White.

I very much welcome Mr. Wheatley's presentation and in particular his detailed analysis of the good, the bad and the ugly. He ends on the ugly, which is about trying to survive in a very tough world, particularly given that an bord snip nua is looking into every corner. I like what Mr. Wheatley had to say about solar panels being as common as satellite dishes on every house. If one visits Greece one can see that it is miles ahead of Portugal because of the tighter regulation. Indeed parts of Spain, which he does not mention and where I lived for many years, are very well provided for with renewable energy, particularly in the north of the country where wind energy and not so much solar voltaic but solar panels, are used.

His problem here is the fixed feed in tariff, again. He believes the price is too low. It is important to say that people frequently tell public representatives that they have installed systems, whether geothermal heating or solar voltaic, where the work has been done by absolute "cowboys". People have had ghastly experiences. I know of one person who installed a geothermal heating system and was charged upwards of €1,000, just for a demonstration about how to flick on the switches. That is giving the whole industry a very bad name. I know we have a good deal of regulation and this sub-committee is trying to cut through the bureaucracy and the red tape, but we have to have standards. Otherwise people will return to oil, which we know is not sustainable in the long-term.

I note Mr. Wheatley's concerns, but I should just like to know where he believes we can go in terms of this committee looking at bureaucracy, red tape and the possibilities of creating jobs, as well as the important factors within the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources on freeing up price control in terms of the tariff. I know we are rushed for time, but perhaps he could address some of those issues.

Mr. Fergus Wheatley

There are a couple of issues there for consideration, the first of which is installation standards. If anything is done on VAT rebates or zero VAT, it is crucial that the SEI or the Sustainable Energy Association are involved in supporting installation standards.

Installation standards have improved massively in the past two years. The "cowboys", by and large, have been run out of the industry at this stage, by word of mouth. Word has gone around as to who is good and who is bad. The people I sell to have changed and the good guys have lasted. Everybody is struggling at the moment, but by and large the "cowboys" have gone because they have lost money through having systems set up and working, yet having to return again and again to deal with the snags.

It is vitally important that standards are maintained. One must be on the register of the central body to be approved. If one is approved one gets help, otherwise one does not. On feed in tariffs, at the moment these are too low, at 19 cent per kilowatt hour. The cheapest good turbine I could buy and put up on the side of a hill in the west of Ireland would have a pay-back period of about eight years, which is too long. We need to drag that back towards the five-year period. We could make money at the UK rates. It would not be open season, with everybody going mad, but it could be sold quite easily at those rates and we should be able to grow the industry nicely, in the event. At the moment the only people putting up small wind turbines are those who are really committed to the technology. They want to do it, not for financial reasons but to help the environment or because they want a new toy, in effect. I hope that answers the Deputy's questions.

I thank Mr. Wheatley for his presentation. I should like to digest this further. Could we get back to him, if we have any questions?

Mr. Fergus Wheatley

We can give the Deputy our business card.

There is a substantial amount to look at here, and it is very interesting.

The terms of reference the sub-committee is concerned about focus on job creation. Mr. Wheatley mentioned oil production and on looking at his graph, if what it indicates is accurate, the prospects are frightening in the run-up to 2015. Many of us will not be here in 2015, anyway, and it will be a problem for those who come after us.

How much fuel can be created from renewable sources? The current variations in fuel prices are horrific, going up and down like a yo-yo. Can Mr. Wheatley offer any insight into the reasons for this? What is happening in the market is not very palatable for the consumer and the variations in price suggest some type of manipulation. Looking at the graph, I can see how manipulation would work. I congratulate him on the chart, which is well thought out and well presented. It indicates that by 2050, oil production in all areas will be close to zero.

Mr. Fergus Wheatley

We are undoubtedly on a downward slope. The problem with oil production is that it is very elastic. When one purchases a car to travel to work, one will have to fill the tank regardless of the cost of petrol. In an economy where people are losing jobs, it takes a long time to get to the stage where there are fewer cars being driven and thus a lower demand for petrol. For example, many people will purchase a smaller model rather than doing without a car. Therefore, there is a significant lag between a deteriorating economy and a decreased demand for fuel. We will see fuel prices rising and falling in the future in response to various economic shocks. The only way we can facilitate economic growth is by relying on renewable technologies. One pays for the capital up-front, but after that the field is free, so to speak.

I read in the newspaper in recent days that one of the major car manufacturers is spending billions on research into hydrogen-driven cars. Would hydrogen be acceptable as a fuel? Is it a renewable?

Mr. Fergus Wheatley

In the case of hydrogen-powered cars, we are talking about the storage of energy. The important question is how the hydrogen is made.

A huge amount of money is being invested in this research and I understand there will be results in five years.

Mr. Fergus Wheatley

I do not doubt it. However, to accommodate hydrogen-fuelled cars, it is necessary to ramp up the infrastructure to take hydrogen, which takes time. There may be a commercial product on the forecourt but until one has everybody driving a hydrogen car——

It might create a few more jobs in that area.

Mr. Fergus Wheatley

It might do, but we are talking about a timeframe of 15 years. Furthermore, there is the issue of making the hydrogen. There is quite a nice synergy between wind turbines and hydrogen because the electricity from the turbines can be taken whenever the wind is blowing. The hydrogen could be produced on Achill Island or anywhere else and then shipped to where it is needed.

To reiterate my question, how much energy can we create from renewable energy sources to take us away from our dependency on oil?

Mr. Fergus Wheatley

There are several ways of looking at it. My expertise is in the area of small-scale renewable energy sources. A small solar panel, typically 6 sq. m in size, produces an energy saving equivalent to 500 litres of oil per year. Some produce a little more and others a little less but that is the average. Therefore, if we covered half the houses in Ireland with solar panels, we would have some 1.8 million dwellings making a saving of 500 litres of oil each on an annual basis. There are other energy efficiency measures such as light bulbs, home insulation and so on, all of which offset the amount of oil being used. After that we get to a stage where we begin looking at electricity production.

At this point I will take off my small-scale renewable energy hat. Using large-scale wind production and smart metering, we could probably meet all of our energy needs. I used to work in a power station, so part of my background is power production, transmission and distribution. I wrote a paper on how to do this. Doing it would be easy. Much of what the Minister, Deputy Ryan, is pushing embodies this type of idea. It all depends on how much money one is willing to throw at the problem. If enough money is thrown, anything can be done. We should get the low-hanging fruit first, that is, get people on board, erect a solar panel and ensure it works before moving on to re-insulating houses properly. It would all help, but I cannot really answer the question.

I know, but I thank Mr. Wheatley. He has gone most of the way to meeting me.

He did well with a difficult question.

And a good paper. Well done.

Mr. Fergus Wheatley

I thank Deputy O'Keeffe.

I congratulate the Sustainable Energy Association, SEA, on an important contribution to our work from the point of view of sustainable energy and its potential for jobs. Practitioners in the field have given the committee practical ideas. The BES condition should be eliminated immediately, as placing that restriction on our guests makes no sense.

While we all mention the potential for jobs, are the SEA's members recruiting plumbers and so on and converting them into people who can make useful contributions to the SEA's work?

Mr. Fergus Wheatley

Ahead of another submission approximately eight months ago, we telephoned and e-mailed everyone we could on the SEI list. Most told us that they had let people go, but that they could ramp up to twice their current size quickly. In this light, the number of jobs in the industry could double without causing inflation in the industry or significant cost increases to the consumer. There is an issue of supply and demand, but there is a significant, but pent up, installer base. Some installers are doing other things and others are on the dole.

There is a perception that the SEA's members might be the only people in the economy who are recruiting, but that is not the reality.

Mr. Fergus Wheatley

No, we are struggling. Last year was a good year. Oil was at $147 per barrel and, this time last year, our telephones were hopping. I have had two telephone calls today. I am not complaining, but the calls in question are long-term projects and I must quote a figure. Last year, 15 orders could be made in the space of an afternoon. While that was exceptional, we were wondering from where we would get the equipment.

We are examining new products and we are trying to rob more of the pie, given the fact that it is getting smaller and we do not want our slice to shrink too much. It is a tough situation. Everyone would ask for more help. Since oil will increase in price, our return is inevitable, but we want to get there without too much damage being caused in the meantime.

How many members does the association have?

Mr. John Hardy

We have grown to more than 100 members in 18 months. The range is broad and includes large companies like Kingspan, the Glen Dimplex Group, Balcas and their suppliers and small companies and installers. The latter include among their number plumbers who have decided to train as installers. We are focused on micro-generation as opposed to large wind farms or the large-scale renewable energy sources with which committee members might be more familiar.

How would a plumber train to be an installer? What is the process?

Mr. John Hardy

There are specific courses for each of the solar, wind, biomass and heat pump technologies. As well as being the owner of a company, Mr. Wheatley is a course trainer. Generally speaking, the courses are registered and administered by Sustainable Energy Ireland and Action Renewables in the North. The Renewable Energy Installer Academy is an all-island entity. Generally, they develop a training manual which is sold to various different training groups around the country and courses are laid on. Last year Mr. Wheatley trained people every other week or so and now the work is significantly down. Now it is every few months that he trains new people. There is a skills base there. People have been trained and may not have used those skills yet, but the skill base is there.

I thank Mr. Hardy and Mr. Comerford for their assistance in our deliberations. They have made several very interesting practical observations and submissions. I agree with the zero rating of VAT. If one wants to promote and stimulate a business, that is important. That this should be installed by approved people is important.

We are talking about developing a Solarteur school here. Such a school in Gussing was part of the project in Germany. This school is specifically devoted to introducing people to the technology involved.

Some of the things the delegation have spoken about, such as the BES as Senator Ryan says, is new and certainly makes us think. My colleagues were very interested in the presentation as it was very well structured.

When it comes to saving energy, an all Ireland approach is the one we should take and it will provide optimal value for everyone and that is important. The sun shines everywhere. From the perspective of economies of scale and use of natural resources that is the way we should go.

The association is playing an important role and obviously pointing us in the right direction but, the taxes and incentives need to be reviewed. Every job lost in this area as the delegates say, slows us down not alone in the implementation of something in which we are miles behind. The feed in tariffs came up in the three presentations today. A nod is as good as a wink to a blind ass. We got several nods today. Of all the issues raised today, that seems to be the critical issue here and we had better deal with it.

I thank the delegation for their presentation. There are a number of issues we can take on board in presenting our report and we appreciate the time you have given. We wish the delegation every success.

Mr. Fergus Wheatley

Do we leave our contact details with somebody?

Yes, you may leave them with the clerk. I welcome Deputy Sean Power who is a former Minister with expertise in this area and we look forward to his contribution to the committee.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.35 p.m. sine die.
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