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Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 Mar 2022

Fuel Costs: Competition and Consumer Protection Commission

I will start with a few notes on public health arrangements. The proceedings of our Oireachtas committees will be conducted without the requirement for social distancing, with normal capacity in the committee rooms restored. However, committees are encouraged to take a gradual approach to this change. Members and witnesses have the opportunity to attend today's meeting in the relevant committee room or online via Microsoft Teams. All those attending the committee room and environs should continue to wash their hands properly and often and to avail of sanitisers outside and inside the committee rooms, be respectful of other people's physical space and practise good respiratory etiquette. If they have any Covid symptoms, no matter how mild, they should not attend in the committee meeting room. Members and all in attendance are asked to exercise personal responsibility in protecting themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19. Members participating remotely are required to participate from within the Leinster House complex, as they are all fully aware. Apologies have been received only from Deputy Shanahan so far.

Today we will look at fuel cost issues and price practices related to fuel. Recent weeks have seen a rise in the cost of fuel, which has affected motorists throughout the country. These cost increases are affecting transport companies in their ability to provide services to the wider public. The current price of fuel has brought into light the matter of fuel retail, including competition compliance issues, while the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, has received a significant number of complaints about the increase in fuel prices. I am pleased to have the opportunity to consider this matter today and to assist the committee in this regard. From the CCPC, I welcome Mr. Jeremy Godfrey, Mr. Brian McHugh, Mr. Seán Murphy and Ms Gráinne Griffin.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses in respect of reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

The opening statement of the CCPC has been circulated to all members. To commence our consideration of this matter, Mr. Godfrey will make opening remarks on behalf of commission.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

My colleagues and I welcome the opportunity to brief the committee on the CCPC's role and our actions in respect of petrol and diesel prices. First, let me introduce myself and my colleagues. I am Jeremy Godfrey, the chairperson of the CCPC. I joined on 1 January this year. Brian McHugh has been a member of the CCPC for almost five years, and Seán Murphy and Gráinne Griffin are directors of our consumer protection and communications divisions, respectively.

The war in Ukraine has exacerbated pressures on the cost of living. It has led to further increases in global commodity prices, notably of crude oil and wheat. These increases can add to upward pressure on prices paid by consumers for essential items such as petrol and diesel. This affects all consumers but has a particular effect on vulnerable members of society. We fully appreciate the anxiety and concern they feel. We are conscious that the recent concern about fuel pricing may be replicated in respect of the prices of other products affected by the war and by the economic sanctions that have followed. For that reason it might be helpful if I briefly outline the general role of the CCPC in pricing. Then I will describe the complaints we have received about fuel pricing and the actions we are taking.

I will summarise the CCPC's mandate in respect of pricing as ensuring that prices are set independently by competing businesses and that those prices are then prominently displayed at the point of sale, thereby enabling consumers to make informed choices as to which supplier offers the best value. We do not tell businesses what prices to charge but we enforce laws that mean there is competitive pressure on businesses to set prices at levels that consumers will find attractive.

Let me set out the main ways in which the laws we enforce are relevant to pricing. First, it is illegal for competing businesses to form a cartel - that is, an agreement to fix prices - or to agree a common pricing policy or to carve up a market in order that they do not have to compete. It is also illegal for businesses to share information about their future pricing intentions. Wholesalers may not dictate the retail prices charged for their products by independent retailers. As long as businesses do not collude, however, they are free to set their own prices and may observe their competitors' prices and adjust their own prices accordingly.

Second, excessive pricing may be illegal if a business is in a dominant position, where it faces little competition and its customers have little bargaining power. When a business is dominant, it is not allowed to abuse its position. Most businesses, however, are not in a dominant position, and their pricing decisions are constrained by the need to compete rather than by any legal obligation.

Third, businesses must be transparent about their pricing and display accurate pricing information to consumers who may be considering buying their product. In the case of filling stations, this means they must have large-scale roadside pricing displays in order that drivers can consider the prices before they enter a forecourt and can drive to an alternative business if they are not happy with the prices offered.

Fourth, businesses must not engage in illegal unfair commercial practices in respect of pricing. For instance, they cannot claim to be offering a discount unless they have really been selling at a higher price. However, selling at a high price in itself is not defined by law as an unfair commercial practice as long as the price is accurately displayed and the consumer is not coerced into paying it.

When we receive complaints about pricing, we assess them to see if they indicate a possible breach of one of these areas of competition or consumer protection law. We can also take action on our own initiative when we suspect there may have been a breach. However, we cannot investigate behaviour that a consumer regards as unethical unless the behaviour may breach the law.

Where appropriate, we investigate suspected breaches of competition or consumer protection law and we can take enforcement action if the investigation uncovers sufficient evidence of a breach. The nature of enforcement action depends on the type of the breach and the nature of the evidence we have. It can range from referring a file to the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, for a criminal prosecution on indictment in the case of the most serious cartel behaviour through to fixed penalty notices or compliance notices for some breaches of consumer protection law.

I will now outline the complaints we have received about fuel pricing and the actions we have taken. Over the past two weeks we have received almost 200 complaints from the general public and public representatives about fuel pricing. In general, these complaints allege that filling stations have failed to pass on the excise duty reduction in a timely manner or that they have exploited the current economic situation to raise fuel prices and to increase profits.

Some complaints include allegations of collusion and a few contain information about price movements at particular filling stations. We have also received a number of complaints relating to allegations of filling stations turning off roadside pricing displays. We urge anyone who has specific information about collusion or any breach of competition or consumer protection law to provide it to us. Whistleblowers who have information about cartels can provide us with that information anonymously at report.whistleb.com/ccpc. Separately, a business or individual that is the first cartel member to provide us with information about a cartel can apply for immunity from criminal prosecution. Penalties for the other cartel members if they are found guilty of breaching competition law can include large fines and a maximum of ten years'  imprisonment for the individuals involved.

We continue to assess the complaints that we have received about fuel prices at the pump. As part of the process, we are engaging with complainants and the industry, and will assess any evidence that might indicate the possibility of collusive practices. We will be as transparent as possible about our work in this area. However, we will not be able to disclose commercially sensitive information nor can we disclose details about any investigation until it is complete. We are unable at this point to say when we will be in a position to give an update.

There are a number of other actions we have taken in relation to fuel pricing. We have written to one trade association and two fuel companies about the competition law risks of making public statements about future increases in fuel prices, and we are continuing to monitor public statements. We have updated our website to provide consumers with relevant information on price increases and our role. We have written to fuel retailer representatives to remind them of their members' obligations under consumer protection law, and we will be continuing compliance checks in relation to pricing displays.

Irish consumers are not alone in suffering from increases in the price of fuel. We have engaged with our European colleagues to discuss shared competition and consumer protection issues arising from the war in Ukraine. As in Ireland, concerns have been raised in other EU member states about pricing changes and the resulting impact on consumers and businesses. Across the EU, competition and consumer protection are just one area of law and policy that is pertinent to the impact of price rises on consumers. Taxation and social policies are also very relevant, and tax changes are being implemented or considered in a number of member states. Political leaders in the EU have also called for proposals for reducing energy dependence on Russia and have declared they will consider concrete options for dealing with the impact of rising energy prices on consumers and businesses, especially vulnerable consumers and SMEs.

In conclusion, may I say that the economic and geopolitical situation is putting pressure on both consumers and businesses. We cannot insulate consumers from the effects of the global upheaval but we will work tirelessly within our mandate on their behalf. We will continue to protect the interests of consumers by monitoring compliance with competition and consumer protection law, by reminding businesses that they must continue to abide by their obligations, and by taking action when we see evidence of such breaches.

I thank Mr. Godfrey and invite members to discuss the issues with the delegation. I remind members who are participating remotely to use the raise hand function in Teams and, importantly, when they finish speaking to cancel the function. We have a rota system under which Deputy O'Reilly is first and she has 14 minutes.

I thank the witnesses for the evidence that they gave us this morning.

Mr. Godfrey referenced in his submission that the commission will continue compliance checks on pricing displays. I suggest that it is not the display but the price that has caused the most consternation, much and all as I understand that is part of the commission's remit. I have not received any complaints from people about the display but more about the requests for money on it.

I wish to ask a few questions and apologise for having to leave shortly to speak in the Chamber but I will be able to look back and follow the debate when I am back. How many fuel retail companies are in the market? How many of them are fuel suppliers? What percentage of the market share is held by the top four companies?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

According to our information there are about nine different brands of fuel operating filling stations in Ireland. Some of those filling stations are owned by the companies and some of them are franchised. They are company owned and company operated, and dealer owned and dealer operated. So I do not have full information on that split but we have got information about nine brands. The top four have probably about 50% or 60% according to the number of filling stations.

Am I correct to say that between 50% and 60% belong to the top four and then the remainder is spread across the rest?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

Yes.

There is mention in the submission about the fact that the commission cannot investigate behaviour that is unethical and I appreciate that the commission is not the morality police. Is there a case for strengthening the law to make unethical practices illegal? I ask because it has been acknowledged in the submission that there are matters that might be unethical and that we would all consider to be wrong. I would venture to say that is what prompted people to get in contact. I wrote to the commission, as did loads of people, to complain that the price hikes are wrong and should not happen and detailed how much it cost them to fill a fuel tank last week in comparison with this week. Notwithstanding all of the global factors and issues, the price hikes did not make sense to people. What people have said to me is that the scale of the increase was wrong. Is there a case to be made to strengthen the law to make the practice illegal? The commission can only investigate something that is illegal. Something might be wrong, awful and morally abhorrent to everyone in the room but the commission can do nothing about it unless it is illegal. Can the commission extend its powers to take in some of this issue which is unethical?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

We have had exactly the same sort of complaints. As I said earlier, probably half of the complaints were about the timing of the excise duty reduction and when that was seen at the pump. About another quarter of the complaints were just about the level of price. We see exactly the same as the Deputy sees in terms of where the public concern is and I would echo what she said. I am grateful for her acknowledgement that as a law enforcement agency, all that we can do is enforce the law. We are definitely not the morality police.

On the question of whether law can be strengthened or whether there are unethical practices that ought to be dealt with by law, ultimately that is a policy matter for the Departments rather than for us. As we build understanding of these markets and in the course of the inquiries that we are making, we will end up with some more understanding of what the impact has been of the price rises and how the rises in the price of crude oil and of the import price of refined products and those wholesale and excise prices have affected the industry and consumers. If we see something that is widespread and unusual then we will bring that to the attention of the policymakers. We certainly are able to give advice but it would be premature for me at the moment to say that there is a case for new laws. When one thinks about what the laws might be, one must be cognisant of the possibility of unintended consequences. So, it is never straightforward. The Deputy asked a straightforward question but it has never been an easy one to answer.

I fully appreciate the unintended consequences and Mr. Godfrey is preaching to the choir on that. However, if it is a case that the law needs to be strengthened then I would hope that there would be an open door to that because that is absolutely something that we should do. The scale of the public outcry about what has happened underlines for us that when the commission concludes its investigations, and maybe it could broaden them, there might be a case for strengthening the law. That is a matter we should keep in mind, Chairperson, for future committee hearings.

Does the commission investigate whether prices for energy and fuel have risen further and more suddenly than external circumstances can justify? We are all aware of the situation in which we are operating and we all understand that but would that be the starting point for an investigation? Does the commission look at the external factors and say they should have caused an X percentage increase but the percentage was more than that and the increase cannot be justified? Is that the kind of scale used by the commission?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

Please forgive me but I do not want to go into too much detail about the way we are doing the inquiries because these are matters that could end up in court.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I do not want to compromise anything.

What we are looking for is reason to suspect that there might have been collusive practices in the setting of prices. That is what is illegal at the moment. Although we have had a handful of complaints about roadside pricing displays, they are very important in the interests of consumers as they enable them to make good choices. That is also something that we would look at.

They do not really, though, if the price is going up at every station and all they have is a display telling them they cannot afford to fill their car. I appreciate Mr. Godfrey's point but in reality what is bothering people is the fact that they just cannot afford to fill their car. It does not matter where they are stopping. I live in north County Dublin and pass several filling stations on my way in. The display is one thing and I understand the importance of that but I know from talking to my neighbours that in real life, they cannot afford it despite all the displays in the world. That is what is bothering people.

Will the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission be reviewing the quarterly financial statements from companies that dominate the market and comparing them with price increases at the pumps? I know the witnesses cannot go into too much detail but is this the kind of thing the commission is looking at? I am trying to understand what form the investigation is going to take without getting too much detail, which I appreciate Mr. Godfrey cannot give me. We are being asked about this by our constituents.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

We will be looking at wholesale and retail pricing. We will be looking to see if there are patterns in that which indicate there may have been collusion. If so, we will take the matter further forward.

A few weeks ago the commission said that traders were not obliged to pass on reductions in VAT or other excise charges to consumers. In light of the hardship that people are facing, and Mr. Godfrey will be aware of it from the letters he has received, does he think legislative change might be required to ensure that those measures are always passed on? I appreciate that we have all had a very hard lesson in global fuel price economics in the last while. We understand how prices move and so on. When the reduction in excise was announced there was a genuine feeling among people that it was not being passed on and they did not see it at the pumps. There is no obligation on retailers and fuel suppliers to do that. They have been very clear that they will do it if they can but they are not legally obliged to. Would it strengthen the commission's hand or does Mr. Godfrey think it would be a good idea if there was a legal requirement for that to be passed on to consumers in a demonstrable way?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I think that is ultimately a policy question for the Government rather than for us. I know Ministers have met with the industry and the industry made commitments that they would be passed on. I think this afternoon the industry is giving evidence to another Oireachtas joint committee. They will explain themselves to that committee.

They will, of course, at the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications this morning. I am just seeking Mr. Godfrey's view on whether legislative change would be required. As it stands we passed the resolution in the Dáil that there would be a decrease in the excise but there is still no legal obligation to pass it on. I am not saying it is pointless because clearly it is not. It will have an impact. I understand it is a policy matter but Mr. Godfrey might have a view as to whether it would be a good policy to pursue to legislate for that so that we can be guaranteed that a reduction in excise is passed on to the consumer.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I think there is a range of taxes, including VAT and excise duty. VAT cuts get passed on more or less immediately compared to excise duty cuts. There are other considerations which are way beyond the scope of the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission's mandate. If the question really is whether a policy lever is needed that will cause an immediate reduction in pump prices, then the Government can decide what is the best way of doing that. Of course, from our point of view we would always encourage policy initiatives that do not damage the competitive process. There would be a range of choices.

The one to which I am specifically referring would not damage the competitive process but would actually enhance it because everyone would be forced to pass it on. There would be an absolutely level playing field.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

There could be a question of how one might define such a power. If the Government were to consider it and wanted our advice on how best to frame it, of course we would be happy to give that advice. However, it is probably not for us to comment too much on how that policy choice should be made. We can certainly help with the framing of an intervention if that is what the Government wishes to do.

The commission is not asking the Government for that right now.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

No.

We are all aware that oil trades in a global market. There are numerous factors and moving parts that influence price increases. Does Mr. Godfrey have a view or any information from his investigations about the scale of what is driving these higher fuel costs? How much of it is down to a rebound in demand in the economy? When we were in lockdown people were not driving about in their cars and the cost of fuel went down. Now that people are back in their cars there is more demand. That is potentially one factor. Is it due to the war and the destabilisation it caused? They are obviously both going to be factors. Does Mr. Godfrey have a sense of which is driving the costs at this stage?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I do not have a sense of that. Our inquiries are at an early stage. Typically, though, Ireland is a price taker for refined fuels. The global market issues have a big impact on us. However, I could not say what the impact of those other factors might have been over recent weeks and months.

I thank the witnesses for coming in today. They have given us a very good overview. I have to confess to having some skin in this game. I grew up many years ago in a small rural filling station. I am very aware of some of the issues in recent weeks. I have great empathy for the small filling station operators and their staff, many of whom have been vilified over the past couple of weeks. I agree with Mr. Godfrey who gave a reasonable overview of the ecology of the fuel retail business. I would, however, take issue where he said that most businesses are not in a dominant position. Unfortunately a number of businesses in fuel retail are emerging as very much dominant players. Some of them capitalised on the humanitarian crisis and war in Ukraine to the detriment of Irish consumers.

I am going to give Mr. Godfrey the view of one of those very small rural retailers. There were no fuel price increases over the course of a weekend but over the five working days diesel was increased by 33 cent a litre and petrol by just under 20 cent a litre. That was in the days immediately leading up to the excise reduction, which was 20 cent on petrol and 15 cent on diesel. The forecourt operators have no control over that. As Mr. Godfrey rightly points out we are a price taker in this. I do not believe we have mentioned what I think is the big issue in this, the fuel importers and warehouses. I understand there are three in Dublin, one in Cork and one in Limerick. While we are price takers I would have a concern that the price may be coming from there rather than from global issues. Another concern which I hope will come out in the scope of the commission's investigation in the coming months is that while many of the smaller retailers operating as branded filling stations pride themselves on delivering a very good service at a fair price, they feel they are being bullied out of the trade at this point by the larger, dominant groups that are intent on gaining market share. The more fuel they are able to sell the greater their buying power. They are able to get fuel at a lower price. Is the investigation going to take in those fuel importers and warehouses? Has the commission had any engagement with those entities thus far or previously? Are they on the commission's radar in terms of any of its ongoing investigations?

I will come back to Mr. Godfrey when he responds to that.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I thank the Deputy for his question. I apologise for not being able to give too much insight into the detail of the inquiries and the assessments we are making at the moment. We have had allegations of collusion and we are assessing all of those and gathering information to help us with the assessment. We would be very interested to hear from the Deputy’s constituents and the people who have been in touch with him. If they think there has been behaviour in the industry that is a breach of competition law, we would encourage them to come forward and give us the information that we can then use as part of our assessment process.

I can talk about prior engagements. As for our prior engagement with the industry, there have been quite a few mergers in the industry so we have a role when there are mergers in any industry to assess whether the merger is likely to cause a substantial lessening of competition and to either block the merger or get it restructured. There was a merger about seven years ago involving the terminal operators at Dublin and filling stations. One of the things the CCPC did at that point was impose some conditions to make sure that there was not a reduction in competition at the Dublin Port terminal operations and to make sure that in certain local areas where it might have led to a reduction in the number in competition among neighbouring filling stations, to insist on some divestment of filling stations to preserve that competition. In this way we have been involved with the industry.

There have been subsequent mergers as well that we looked at. We have been involved in some of those issues in industry in the past. We have taken action to preserve the level of competition.

In regard to the wholesalers and warehouses, will the CCPC be looking at those? I appreciate that Mr. Godfrey is constrained in what he can say. Has he looked at those or does he intent to look at those as part of the investigation?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I really do not want to say much more than I have already said about the scope of the investigation and the scope of our inquiry and our assessment. What I will say is that where we have complaints or allegations of collusion those are things we will look at. Whatever has been alleged is something we will assess.

Very good. I wish to make one other point. I have given some oversight of it, in terms of the step up in the price increase that took place in the five-day run-up to the reduction in excise. Every dog in the street knew there was going to be a reduction in excise. The reality is that 24 hours prior to the reduction in excise, a small rural filling station would have placed its order for 13,000 l of fuel. The station would have paid €2.16 per litre for it and then with the introduction of the excise reduction, would been selling that at €1.99 per litre. Over a 24-hour period the station was forced to carry a loss of €5,100 on that delivery. In terms of equality and fairness surely there has to be some recourse for those small retailers who bought in a supply of fuel within 24 hours or 48 hours of the excise reduction. There must be some recourse for them, through their suppliers and indeed ultimately through the Exchequer. Does Mr. Godfrey have a view on that? I appreciate it is an issue for the Exchequer more than for the CCPC but as a policing authority in this area, in pursuit of equality, what is Mr. Godfrey’s view on that?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

Our mandate in regard to what the Deputy describes is if the small filling station has been put in a difficult position as a result of an anti-competitive practice or a collusive agreement, then that is something that we will investigate and take action on. If the people the Deputy has been talking to consider that is the case we would be very interested in hearing from them and gathering from them any evidence they have. Depending on the evidence and what it shows us, we can take that further forward.

I have a final point which Mr. Godfrey may have confirmed for me earlier. In regard to small independent retail stations that want to come forward, all of that is under the guarantee of anonymity on any information they provide to the CCPC, is that correct?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

We have an anonymous online platform in order that they can communicate with us and we will not even know who they are. We can go backwards and forwards like that. If they wish to communicate in that way, the option is available to them. If they are willing to put their name to the information they give us, that could also be useful to us. Sometimes if we uncover criminal offences and we want the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, to prosecute them, people who are willing to give evidence and be witnesses are also very useful. However they certainly can start anonymously and the extent to which they come forward is their choice. We are always very interested to hear from people with evidence.

I thank Mr. Godfrey for his forthright contribution. I will pass on to the next contributor.

I thank Mr. Godfrey and his colleagues for their time this morning. There are a couple of issues I wish to raise. In regard to comments on cartels, Mr. Godfrey said he was going to act on it in respect of recent times and that he is going to investigate and check it out. Over the past 18 months, has a regular audit been carried out? What is the case in that scenario?

I might also ask in regard to the display pricing information that has to be clear, what are acceptable reasons for not doing so? If display signs are, for example, faulty or the company has issues in resolving them, are there consequences if a company is found to have breached that requirement?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

There are two questions there. The question about if a roadside display is off through no real fault or intention of the roadside operator, I will ask my colleague, Seán Murphy, to answer that question in a moment. On the question about ongoing competition activities, at the moment we have had a large number of complaints and allegations about this particular industry. Of course when we get complaints we assess them. There is a focus for us in looking into the complaints and assessing the complaints and allegations that we have received. Over the past number of years we have been very active in competition in other markets. We are not just a fuel regulator; in fact we are not a fuel regulator at all. Our remit goes across the whole economy so we have taken action on insurance, on ticketing-----

Just in relation to fuel.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

In relation to fuel, this has not been a focus in recent years, since the last time there was a merger. I will ask Mr. McHugh to comment.

Mr. Brian McHugh

When we get a merger as we do regularly in this market, we look at the market in terms of the merger and where there were any issues with that merger in terms of substantial lessening of competition. We do not regularly audit markets, we do not audit the fuel market on a regular basis. When we get complaints, as we have here, we have powers in terms of requesting information and they are quite strong. Therefore it is not a big problem that we do not audit markets to collect information. When we happen to do an investigation, we can collect that information and look at it that way so there is no need for us to audit markets, the fuel market or any other, on a regular basis to have that information.

To be clear, the CCPC acts on complaints, is that correct?

Mr. Brian McHugh

We act on complaints and we also act off our own bat when we see issues that we consider need to be looked at closer in different markets. Mr. Godfrey mentioned the ticketing investigation, the insurance investigation. If there are issues, we will look at that market and we will use our powers to collect data at that point.

I thank Mr. McHugh.

Mr. Seán Murphy

I thank the Deputy for the question. Traders are required to display their prices. There are a number of display orders out there.

What is of relevance to the question the Senator has asked is that there is a petrol and diesel display order, SI 178 of 1997, and that sets out pretty specific terms as to what traders are required to do. In the case where we have received complaints that such signs have been off or not displayed, we have sent officers out to investigate that, so there has been attendance at a couple of stations with respect to that. What the officer will assess is whether there was a reasonable excuse behind that or what was the intent behind it, and the officer will get an explanation from that trader. If there is a reasonable and plausible excuse as to why that was not on, a warning is issued and, again, the trader needs to sort that out. We can also issue a fixed payment notice for a specific breach because those display orders come under the Prices Act 1958, so they remain in vogue.

The one thing I would say is that those price displays are a very powerful consumer protection measure because, as our chairman said, it enables consumers to be fully informed before they enter that transaction, so they do not arrive onto the forecourt and get surprised and find the price displayed is not the price, which is another check we do against that. To date, we have conducted more than 150 checks on price display and in instances where we have received complaints with respect to pricing, we visited there as well. I hope that clarifies it.

In what period of time were the 150 checks carried out?

Mr. Seán Murphy

It was over the last week and a half.

I thank the witnesses for the contributions. I want to follow up on the issue raised by Senator Crowe in terms of complaints. The witnesses said in their contributions that there have been 200 complaints which the CCPC is dealing with at the moment. On a yearly basis, in terms of fuel costs alone, not the display of fuel costs, how many complaints does the CCPC get a year? For example, how many complaints did it get in 2020?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I will ask Ms Griffin to provide the Senator with that information.

Ms Gráinne Griffin

We do not regularly receive complaints in regard to general pricing at fuel stations. If we were to look at the first quarter of the year, before these issues emerged, there would have been four complaints to the CCPC about pricing at fuel stations. Again, those mainly would have related to the display of pricing, which is where we have very clear responsibilities.

Almost no one would make complaints to the CCPC in regard to the price of fuel.

Ms Gráinne Griffin

In terms of the general pricing, that is something, across the economy, that we see a relatively low number of figures on and it certainly would not appear in the top criteria. I do not have the exact figures to hand but we would be happy to follow up.

If I drove to a fuel pump today and the price was €2.60, which was totally out of sync with everywhere else in the country, who do I make the complaint to?

Ms Gráinne Griffin

Generally, for prices at individual stations, we would direct people to complain to that particular station as to why its pricing is so high. Often, what we would see is that consumers are extremely price conscious and where they feel that one station is being unreasonable in its pricing, they go to a different station and give it their business.

In his contribution, Mr. Godfrey spoke about how the CCPC has a responsibility to make sure that pricing is attractive to customers. If I drive into a fuel station and it is 50 cent higher than everywhere else in the country, who do I complain to? There is no point complaining to the fuel station. Who do I complain to?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

Let me get back to what I said. Our responsibility is to make sure there is competitive pressure and it is the competitive pressure that causes the fuel stations to set their prices at a level that is attractive.

If the fuel stations know that the CCPC does not act on a complaint, or not that the CCPC does not act but that there are very few complaints brought to it on the pricing of fuel, how is the CCPC a deterrent to companies having an increase in their prices?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

The deterrent to a company having their price out of line with all its competitors is that the customers will go elsewhere.

The argument is that there is no need for a service to regulate it, which is a strange argument to make. Everyone knows of places where, if it is perhaps not 50 cent higher, prices are much higher than other places in the country. That is sometimes because it might be the only fuel station within 20 km and there are many reasons for it, for example, the profit margins are different if it is a small business. For the consumer, apart from ringing us, as public representatives, who is accountable to make sure that filling station has a price that is attractive for the customer? That is what Mr. Godfrey said in his contribution, namely, the CCPC is there to make sure the price is attractive for customers.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

Our role is to make sure that filling stations set their prices as competing businesses, that they set their prices independently and that there is no collusion or no cartel. It is also to make sure that they display their prices so consumers do not get tricked into driving onto the forecourt and then discovering the price is much higher than they thought.

I get that. I get the display part of it. In Mr. Murphy's contribution as well as in Mr. Godfrey's, they spoke about the penalties that are there for companies that do not act accordingly. One of those penalties is up to a ten-year prison sentence. The ten-year prison sentence is not going to someone who did not display a price rise and that is clearly for a different offence. For an offence of someone totally overpricing fuel and diesel, if the CCPC is not regulating it, or if it is not protecting customers in terms of fair price, who is?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

Our mandate is to make sure the prices are set independently so the ten-year prison sentences would be for cartels. If companies get together and agree what the price is going to be on something, that is a very serious criminal offence and when we have evidence, we will prosecute or investigate and ask the DPP to prosecute those offences. However, businesses are free to set prices where they like. It is up to them to set their prices and it is up to us to make sure that the prices are set in a competitive market.

What is the level that is not competitive, in Mr. Godfrey's view?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

It is not a level of pricing. It is if businesses collude and if they reach an agreement about what price they are going to charge. If that is the way the prices are set, then that is unlawful, that is illegal, and we would take action against it.

I am conscious of time. Mr. Godfrey's argument is that it is unlawful for them to have a cartel and to work with each other to set a price, but there is nothing the CCPC can do if I drive into a filling station and I spend way over the odds, for example, €2.50 per litre on diesel today. If I make a complaint to the CCPC, that complaint is pointless, really. Mr. Godfrey said people should make complaints. He said three times today that people should make complaints to the CCPC where they see fit. If I made a complaint today about the price of fuel, nothing is acted upon.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

If the Senator made a complaint to us about the price of fuel at a filling station, we will assess the complaint and the other evidence that we have to see whether that might indicate there was collusion that we should-----

The CCPC will check collusion but it will not check the price.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

We enforce the laws as they are and the law we enforce is a law against collusion and it is a law that requires price displays. That is what we enforce. Our advice to consumers is around having the price displayed. I take the Senator’s point that there may be isolated filling stations where there may not be much alternative but, in general, our role is to make sure that consumers have a choice and that businesses that are competing set their prices independently. Mr. McHugh referred to the mergers we have dealt with, and that is another thing we do. We make sure that when there is a merger, that does not result in a substantial lessening of choice for consumers. Our role is to make sure that within the mechanism by which a number of businesses are competing, they set their prices independently and the consumers know the prices before they buy. That is our role: to make sure that mechanism works and there is pressure on those businesses to set their prices at a level that is dictated by those competitive pressures. We do not tell people what level of price to charge. We do not control the level of price.

Mr. Godfrey does not know who does.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

No.

I thank the witness.

Deputy Bruton is next and will be followed by Deputy Stanton. They have five minutes apiece.

Apart from the individual complaints - Mr. Godfrey indicated how these are dealt with - I am interested in hearing a little of the general position in the sector. Looking online, it seems that Ireland's pricing is approximately in the middle of the range across the European Union. There are approximately ten countries charging higher prices for motor fuels and eight that charge lower prices. The tax element is approximately the same, with eight countries having a higher charge and the rest charging a lower amount. Ireland is approximately in the middle of the table.

Over the past two or three months since the issue has put big pressure on people, has the commission tracked how Irish prices are rising compared with other countries? Is there evidence that there is more profit-taking going on that may be signalled by higher prices in Ireland than in other EU countries? What are margins like in this sector? Is it a sector where excessive margins are, in general, being taken that may justify a review even if it is not an investigation or specific prosecution?

How is the issue of dominance defined in the motor fuel sector? In a region or county where there are very few suppliers, could pricing be challenged on grounds of dominance or is that just too complicated? Related to this, is there a concept of price gouging whereby prices are going up and people take advantage to gouge out more margin? Is that something we could develop a code of practice around even if we could not individually prosecute people, so at least there could be some trail of evidence to indicate that gouging went on during a period of volatility that one could seek to investigate over time?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I thank the Deputy. I will try to answer his questions but if I miss one, please let me know and ask it again. With the information we are gathering, we have been motivated to look at the matter by the recent very high level of public concern and anxiety over fuel prices. With the information we are gathering, as well as being able to assess collusion, we will get a better sense of what is happening to margins in the industry by looking at wholesale and retail pricing. When we have that sense and are in a position to provide an update, we will do so.

"Dominance" is a technical term that has much case law around what it means. In the case of the fuel sector, in the past we have looked at mergers and at the retail level the market is very local and not even as big as a county. We have tended to look at markets in urban areas as having a neighbourhood of approximately 3.2 km or 2 miles. In rural areas, we have tended to look at markets where people are willing to drive a little further to get a good deal on petrol. We looked at markets in those areas of approximately 5 miles or 8 km. Those issues in retail are, as one of the Deputy's colleagues alluded to, very local. There may be plenty of competition in one part of a county and perhaps less competition in another part. There are also markets for wholesale selling of fuel and importing fuel for services one gets at terminals. We looked at all of those with respect to mergers. There are several players and there is no evidence at all of one dominant player in those markets.

The definition of dominance is really quite extreme, with a company able to act without care and it does not matter what competitors do. The company does not need to care or worry about competitors or customers and it would have almost complete freedom to act. It is very rare to find dominance in any market. I would not want to say to the committee that issues of dominance in this market were very likely to be found. With the case law on excessive pricing and dominance, the courts have held that, really, the pricing must bear no relation whatever to the cost before they are willing to uphold an accusation of excessive pricing. We are not in that position in this market.

I welcome our guests and congratulate them on the work they are doing. Is the commission satisfied there is sufficient public awareness of its existence, its role and powers? Does it have a campaign in place to alert consumers to its existence, what it can do, how it can assist and how people may make complaints to it? Has it carried out any surveys on public awareness of its role? I asked a number of people before this meeting and they were not aware at all that the commission even existed. This may be something on which the Mr. Godfrey might revert.

Will Mr. Godfrey speak about the commission's staff resources? I note that up to the end of May 2020, it got some extra staff but is Mr. Godfrey happy there are enough resources in place and are there any vacancies that the commission is struggling to fill? Does the commission need more resources?

In the submission it is indicated the commission wrote to one trade association and two fuel companies about the competition law risks of making public statements about future fuel prices. What is that about? I am not too sure about that impact or why it is so important.

Is collusion very difficult to prove and what must we have in order to prove that collusion exists? If a town's fuel outlets all have the same high price but the price in the next town is lower, would that be sufficient for the commission to suspect collusion? Is the Competition (Amendment) Act fully commenced and working to the commission's satisfaction?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I thank the Deputy. His first question was about awareness of the commission. We certainly believe it could be raised higher. We are doing some work on how best to do that. We are planning a number of campaigns for this year to inform consumers about their rights. Those campaigns will also raise awareness of our existence.

On the question of resources, like anybody else we can always have vacancies and sometimes we struggle to fill them. The labour market has been quite buoyant. We are in constant communication with our Department about what resources we believe we might night. Again, that is always set in the context of other pressures on Government expenditure. It is an ongoing conversation that we have.

The Deputy asked about warnings given to trade associations and companies about discussing price intentions. Price signalling is also a breach of competition law. Rather than having a complete agreement on what prices to charge, companies may, through public statements, signal to one another or trade associations about intentions. In normal circumstances, a company considering increasing its prices may think there is a bit of a risk if it increases prices and its competitors do not follow. If a trade association states that everybody will have to increase prices, the competitive risk would be reduced. That is why price signalling is harmful to competition. Sometimes people do this without having particular ill intentions. Often, we like to give people a warning when we see it in order that it does not happen again.

The Deputy asked whether collusion was difficult to prove. Yes, it can be difficult to prove and good evidence is necessary. The Deputy talked about observing prices that were different in two towns. The process we would go through as a law enforcement agency starts with having suspicion and assessing things. Then we would get into more detailed evidence gathering, eventually potentially leading to prosecution. The situation the Deputy described of observing unusual price patterns is not a smoking gun but it is maybe smoke. That is how I would characterise it.

On the Competition (Amendment) Bill, it has not yet gone through all Stages in the Oireachtas, so I cannot tell the Deputy how it is working. We are very pleased with the powers that Act will contain when it is passed.

I do not think anybody else has indicated so I will ask a quick question about the investigation. Mr. Godfrey mentioned the allegations of collusion. Obviously he cannot go into the details of the investigation. He did not give any timeline as to when he envisages the investigation will be completed. Does he have any idea of that? Will it be a month or a year or how long will it take?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I absolutely understand the interest that lies behind your question. The thing with these kinds of assessments and then investigations is that we have to follow the evidence where it takes us. It is really not possible at the moment to give an indication as to how long we think that will be.

Can we not even get an interim idea of where the commission is at? It did an investigation into insurance companies which took a number of years. Are we talking about a number of years here or a number of months? I assume when he came in to the committee Mr. Godfrey was expecting to be asked this question by several of us. Basically we are going to have to invite him back in again, I would imagine.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

We understand the interest. We absolutely also understand the importance of being as transparent as we possibly can about the progress we are making. I can certainly commit that we will give an update as soon as we are able to do so. I cannot at the moment tell the committee exactly when that is going to be.

Is the commission aware of any other jurisdictions that are doing similar investigations? Have they done the reports?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I am aware that in other jurisdictions there have been similar concerns raised but I do not think anybody has done that. These things do take longer than a few days or a few weeks.

I thank Mr. Godfrey. He understands where we are coming from. There is significant concern especially from consumers about being gouged. Whether it is true or not, there is a sense that there is collusion going on in setting the prices across the State. As many members have already said, we are getting calls in our constituencies and we have referred a few of them to the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission. I hope we will hear a response. Senator Ahearn has indicated.

Sarah Collins had an article on the front page of the Irish Independent this morning about how fuel and heating costs are expected to reach a 40-year record high. Is that how the commission sees it in terms of fuel costs for this year?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

We have not done a forecast of fuel costs for this year but we absolutely understand that there is a lot of inflationary pressure. Even before the war in Ukraine prices were rising. That has been exacerbated by the war. I cannot give a comment on the particular level of price rises or how long it has been since prices were at such a level. It is absolutely the case. The cost of living issues are significant for everyone in Ireland. Even before the war in Ukraine we had decided that one of the factors that would help us prioritise what to look at this year would be things that are important to cost of living. That has only been underlined by the war in Ukraine.

Does the commission expect the price of fuel to keep increasing throughout the year? Deputy Bruton was talking about the average price at the moment for Ireland. I randomly picked a day after the Government had put in the 15 cent cut in fuel prices. Our average for that day was €1.85 while the European average was €1.86 and the world average fuel price was €1.05. The European average price of fuel is way higher than the rest of the world. Is there a reason for that in Mr. Godfrey's view? When we look at some other countries, Germany was up at €2.31 per litre. Is it possible that we could get to levels like that this year?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I am not really in a position to forecast what might happen to the price of crude oil and how that might impact the pump prices in Ireland or how that differs from one country to another. I am aware of the ESRI forecasts that were also in this morning's papers that inflation across the economy is expected to reach unprecedented levels or levels not seen since the 1980s. The impact on consumers, Irish citizens and the most vulnerable in society is going to be a big issue this year. While I cannot comment on the precise levels, it is clearly going to be something that we all will need to pay attention to.

Mr. Godfrey mentioned crude oil. The argument is always made that increases in crude oil reflect the increases in petrol and diesel for obvious reasons. One would think then that the graph per year would always be the same. In 2008, however, the price of crude oil was way higher than it is now but diesel and petrol were cheaper. Why was that the case? The price of crude oil at the moment is around $130. Back in 2008 it was €170 but the price of diesel at the pumps now is much higher than it was in 2008.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

The way in which changes in the price of crude oil are transmitted into pump prices is something that I have not got a point of view on. About exactly what has happened recently, as a result of the inquiries we are making at the moment we will have more information and may get some more insight into that question. When we are in a position to give an update we will do so.

When the commission looks at complaints about prices, I assume the price of crude oil is what it looks at first. However, if it has been the case previously that the price of crude oil increased dramatically but the price at the pumps did not, it seems to be an outlier.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

Ireland is generally an importer of refined products. There is one refinery in Cork but most of the fuel in Ireland is imported as a refined product. The question is really what is the wholesale price of that imported oil. We may be in a position to have some more insight about that after we have completed our inquiries.

Most petrol stations and companies involved in diesel and petrol work off pretty tight margins, unless they are putting crazy prices up. They want people to come into the petrol station to buy other products. Hedging is popular within petrol stations. What percentage of businesses have a set price, essentially, for their diesel or petrol?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I am not able to answer that question. If I just take it back to our mandate, it is to make sure that pricing is set independently, there is no collusion, and the prices are displayed accurately. Those are the legal obligations we are responsible for enforcing. Our focus at the moment is in assessing whether all those legal obligations have been met. To the extent that information we gather in carrying out that assessment sheds some light on some of the issues the members have raised, we will be happy to provide an update.

Would Mr. Godfrey agree that if companies buy in bulk or buy for a set price for a period of time, an increase in prices should not have an effect on those companies? When there is an increase in the price of crude oil, the price at the petrol pumps goes up straight away but when there is a decrease it takes ages for the price to fall. Companies that are trying to run their business well would try to have a set price to give them certainty.

However, that should not impact the price at the pump immediately in the way we have seen over recent weeks. To go back to the questions I asked in the previous round, when I was talking about people making complaints about pricing, Mr. Godfrey said that if someone makes such a complaint, the CCPC does not look at the actual price but at whether businesses are colluding with others in respect of pricing. How many complaints does the CCPC get on that specific issue per year? How many people ring up each year to make a complaint about a lack of competitive pricing or people putting up their prices at the same time?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

As was said earlier, with regard to fuel pricing, we get very few complaints about the industry in normal times. There has obviously been a great surge in complaints recently. While the number of complaints alleging actual collusion is not large compared to the number of complaints about the actual prices or about the excise cuts, we will assess all of the complaints to see whether or not there is-----

How many times has the CCPC sent a file to the DPP based on those complaints? I am referring to complaints on fuel pricing and nothing else. I am asking for a percentage. If there were, for example, ten complaints on fuel pricing a year or if there were suspicious acts within companies with regard to------

Mr. Brian McHugh

We send a file to the DPP where we have carried out an investigation and there is evidence of a breach of the law. It is-----

How many times has that been done?

Mr. Brian McHugh

It has been done a number of times. There was-----

I am not asking about insurance but just fuel pricing.

Mr. Brian McHugh

There was previously a case in respect of home heating fuel. A case went to the courts. That was a number of years ago. Where we see-----

There has been nothing in terms of the price of fuel. If I make a complaint about the price of fuel at the pump, the CCPC will not deal with the actual price because that is independently set. It investigates whether the supplier is acting incorrectly or colluding with other groups. No prosecution has ever been brought in that regard. A file has never been sent to the DPP in respect of such collusion.

Mr. Brian McHugh

The Senator is asking about petrol stations.

Yes, I am asking about petrol stations and fuel prices.

Mr. Brian McHugh

Where there is evidence of collusion, we will investigate but-----

The CCPC has never had any evidence of that.

Mr. Brian McHugh

We have not seen evidence of breaches of the law in respect of petrol stations.

While asking people to make complaints, the CCPC has never found evidence of anything.

Mr. Brian McHugh

In terms of evidence required to send a file to the DPP in respect of activities in that particular market, that is correct. We are always looking for evidence. Where people have concerns or where there might be employees working within the companies-----

The CCPC has never found evidence, however. Has it never found it because it does not exist or can it just not find it?

Mr. Brian McHugh

We never say it does not exist. We are always open to listening to anyone with information on, or evidence of, potential collusion in any market. We are very keen to hear from people about it. We really want to get evidence so that we can open cases, investigate, put an end to any collusion and, ultimately, have prosecutions and sentences where there is evidence of collusion. Again, as we have touched on earlier, although today's meeting is about the fuel market, anyone in any market can come forward to provide us with evidence. There are a number of avenues to do that and we really encourage people to do so. In bringing cases in respect of collusion, we need evidence.

There has never been any evidence of collusion, however.

The Senator's time is up. It is clear from Mr. McHugh's answer that we definitely need legislation in this area because it cannot be the case that nobody is being prosecuted.

There is just no way that is the case. It must be that the CCPC cannot find the evidence because it does not have the necessary powers or that it is just not doing its job correctly, although I doubt that is the case.

The Senator is way over time. I call Senator Crowe, who has seven minutes. He will be followed by Deputy Bruton, who will also have seven minutes.

I will raise two issues. My colleagues raised a number of concerns. For the general public and the people who contact us every day, we need to send a message out about the timeline for investigation, a matter the Chair raised. It is a fair question. Surely the CCPC representatives can give us a timeline. We are now at the end of March. They should be able to say it is going to take two months, three months or six months. That is fair question that needs to be answered. Otherwise, we are all wasting our time.

I will also raise an issue that has been brought up this morning and which has come across in the discussion, which has been helpful. Based on the information currently available, it certainly seems there are going to be further significant increases in fuel costs and energy costs throughout the year. None of us can see into a crystal ball but we can consider where we and Europe as a whole are. At this stage, people are at their wits' end. We all see it across communities, particularly in my own community in west Galway. The increase proposed in the carbon tax for 1 May needs to be deferred because it is just not possible for people to pay. A family was on to me yesterday with regard to home heating oil. They filled their tank fully for €600 less than 12 months ago but could only fill it halfway yesterday for the same amount of money. I am asking for the witnesses' opinions on those two issues, if they will give them to me. I will leave it at that for now.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I thank the Senator very much for that. On the second issue he raised, we absolutely understand that the pressures on consumers are very extreme compared to what they were previously. The Senator is quite right that competition and consumer protection law is just one of the tools available to ameliorate those pressures. It is good that other things are being considered but, of course, those are matters for the relevant Departments rather than for us.

With regard to the timing, as I said before, we are not sitting on our hands. We do not want to waste time. We are committed to being as transparent as we possibly can and to providing information and updates on where we are going but I am not in a position to say when we will next be able to give the committee an update. However, I absolutely take the message about how anxious the Deputy is that this should be done sooner rather than later. We will provide updates when we are in a position to do so.

The CCPC seems to have as much information as it is going to have. We are now coming towards the end of March. Does Mr. Godfrey expect a conclusion and some report within three months? There is no point in saying it is going to take six months, a year or 18 months because people out there are getting very frustrated. There is also the side of it that Senator Ahearn outlined. There is clear evidence from genuine people on the ground. We know that there are significant issues in our own communities. There is a Government in place that is trying to bring in measures to deal with this problem but these cuts are not being passed onto the consumer. It is not fair to kick the issue down the road. Surely Mr. Godfrey can say that he will be in touch within three or four months and that there will be a conclusion to the matter. There has to be a timeline. As other members have alluded to, if the CCPC needs more resources or staff, it needs to say so. We need to make progress because it is too serious an issue not to.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

The Senator is absolutely right that it is a very serious issue. We do not have all of the information we need to complete the assessment of the allegations of collusion or to determine the extent to which there might be instances of collusion that are worth investigating further.

That is something that we are gathering information about and we will assess that information. I really do not want to compromise where the investigation might go by saying too much about that process or how long it is going to take. We are a law enforcement agency. It is important that we do not provide too much information about the way we carry out investigations until they are complete. I absolutely understand the desire of the committee and of the public to get as timely an update as possible on these matters. I have heard exactly what the Senator and his colleagues have said about the timeframes they would expect or would like to have an update. That is something we will take very seriously. We have heard that message. I do not want to give a commitment on a particular timeframe at the moment because I fear possibly compromising a matter that might come to court in due course. We are on the side of the committee and on the side of consumers in wanting to deal with these issues but please allow me to protect the integrity of our investigation.

Mr. Godfrey stated this morning that he believes that the current price is unsustainable and that the increase in carbon taxes should possibly be deferred. Do I take that from his comments?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I did not make any comment at all on carbon taxes. That is a policy matter for the Government.

What is his own personal opinion?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I am here as the chair of the CCPC, not to express my personal opinions. What I would say is of course the impact on consumers of the global upheaval and the rises in commodity prices is a wider issue than just competition and consumer protection.

To go back to what Senator Crowe and others are saying, I see two distinct roles that the commission has. One is to prosecute offences and I understand how that requires time and diligence to assemble evidence and being careful not to foul a potential prosecution. However on the other hand, it also has a role of consumer protection and I do not see why it could not at a very early date give an indication of what is happening in the Irish market. What are the trends in pre-tax prices of fuel in Ireland compared with other EU countries? Is there evidence that in general, Ireland is being exposed to some gouging? Also, in my view Mr. Godfrey articulates some principles of good consumer codes of practice for suppliers in this period that do not represent new offences that they potentially can commit. However advice to both consumers and to suppliers as to what a consumer should expect as reasonable protection in this arena would be useful. Consumers would be reassured if the CCPC could offer some general assessment of what is happening in that marketplace, separate to the care that must be taken around prosecutions. That is what I suggest could be done. Some guidance about avoiding price gouging could be delivered because people will want to act responsibly if they get leadership from people like the witnesses.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

Deputy Bruton is quite right. Of course prosecuting competition offences is only one part of our mandate. In this case our first priority is to assess whether or not that is something that we ought to take further because businesses colluding to increase prices in a key commodity like fuel at a time like this would be a really unconscionable thing for them to do. That is our first priority. The information we gather in that process may well shed light on some of the issues the Deputy raises. When I say we need to give an update, that does not necessarily mean we have to wait until all the competition issues have been resolved but I do not want to give a particular timeframe. We will have to consider quite carefully what we can say and what use we can make of the information we have in a way that addresses the issues the Deputy has raised but in a way that does not compromise anything that might happen in court in the future. Forgive me, I know I may be frustrating members of the committee but I really do not want to say anything more specific than that. I assure members that we have heard the message loud and clear and we share the view that this is an issue of great importance to the public, to consumers, to vulnerable members of society, to public representatives and to all of us. Providing what information we can as soon as we possibly can is something that we are committed to doing. We hear members want this but we do not want to be pushed into giving a specific timeframe for that at this meeting.

I accept the point. I still believe that some general guidance on things like price gouging would be useful in the marketplace because people's behaviour is enforced not just by being arraigned before court on grounds of offences but if they know what is socially acceptable and if others around them can see unacceptable behaviour, that acts as a check and the commission could provide some good leadership by articulating some general views at an early date. I take the point and I am not going to push it further.

I thank the witnesses for the presentation. To quote Mr. Godfrey in his opening statement, he said "Most businesses ... are not in a dominant position, and their pricing decisions are constrained by the need to compete rather than by any legal obligation." In other words, the pricing decisions of most businesses are not constrained by any laws apart from the law not to operate as a cartel. Basically it is the law of the jungle and they are free to set whatever prices they choose to set.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

Yes, that is the law.

That includes war profiteering. It includes the examples of Energia with three price increases in the first six months of last year, a 51% increase in profits; the ESB had big price increases and a 27% increase in profits; Bord Gáis Energy, owned by Centrica, doubled its profits last year set against a 39% increase in the cost of gas coming up shortly. All of that is perfectly legal.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

It is legal for companies to make their own pricing decisions as long as they do not collude. In regulated markets, and there are parts of the energy market where there are some regulations, there are parts of the telecoms market where there are regulations particularly about wholesale pricing, so there are constraints in some markets on pricing but in general, businesses are free to set prices at whatever level they choose as long as they do not collude and as long as they are transparent about the prices so that their customers are able to make an informed choice about who to do business with. That is the law as it stands and that is the law that we enforce.

I accept that. It is not Mr. Godfrey’s fault; it is his job to enforce the law and the law is problematic in terms of not actually protecting people at all. Mr. Godfrey said people are free to make a choice but is there really a choice if, let us say I am a consumer and I am driving around trying to find petrol but petrol everywhere is extremely expensive? What choice do I really have, as a consumer?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

We see the pressures on pricing. We see the pressure that puts on ordinary people. We cannot insulate people from the consequences of the global upheavals that are going on. We can make sure that the prices they pay are set by businesses that have independently set their prices and the prices are properly displayed so that people can make a choice. It may not be possible, the competition may end up with everyone making independent decisions that prices need to be higher.

That is not illegal, but at least the competitive pressure will still constrain the extent to which the prices rise. Our job is to ensure there is competitive pressure by ensuring we do not have unscrupulous traders colluding on their prices or unscrupulous traders misleading consumers about what the prices are.

Even the word "unscrupulous" involves a certain moral consideration. While I agree that price-fixing and so on are unscrupulous, I would argue that taking advantage of a war situation to increase profits is also unscrupulous. It is not illegal. It is perfectly legal within the framework of the capitalist market as we currently have it. However, I also think that is unscrupulous behaviour. People do not have a choice. People in many areas have no access to public transport and rely on driving private cars. They cannot afford to buy an electric vehicle, for example. They have no choice. They are the ones paying the price for massive increases in petrol and diesel prices. The whole discussion today has gone back and forth with people asking Mr. Godfrey to be in favour of changing the law. Obviously, he is not going to do that and I understand that. However, for me it confirms the point that we need to have price controls. If we were to pass price controls, which can be done by ministerial orders, presumably they would then be enforced by the CCPC. That is the kind of thing we need but I accept that Mr. Godfrey is unlikely to comment at this stage.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

The Deputy is quite right. I am unlikely to comment on that at this stage.

Mr. Godfrey has spoken about people having choice. He is correct that people have choice but Deputy Paul Murphy has a point. If I wanted to buy a shirt, I could buy it in my home town of Clonmel, in Donegal or in Dublin depending on price. Most people like me fill up the car when the fuel gauge light comes on. As I can only travel a limited distance, I cannot look at the price in Donegal or Galway. I cannot get to those places because I do not have enough fuel in the car and to get to them would cost too much anyway. When Mr. Godfrey talks about freedom of choice, it is a very limited freedom of choice compared with other products that people buy. For that reason, the Government needs to do something. There must be some acknowledgement that the freedom of choice is more limited for fuel than it is for most other products. That is not something for Mr. Godfrey to solve today, obviously. However, when we talk about freedom of choice it needs to be acknowledged that it is not really full freedom of choice.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

The Senator is quite right; it is not a national market. People cannot buy their fuel online and have it delivered. As he rightly said, people buy it when they need it and they need to buy it locally. We have looked at these markets in the context of mergers. This is where we have a mandate to preserve the amount of choice people have. As I mentioned, when we have looked at this, we have used a radius of 2 miles or 3.2 km in urban areas and 5 miles or 8 km in rural areas as the distance people might travel. When we have done competition assessments, we have looked at the amount of choice that exists within those quite small radii. Where we have seen that in a particular area the amount of choice might be reduced by a merger to a level that we think is against the interest of consumers, we have required that the particular petrol stations be divested as a condition of allowing that merger to continue.

I completely agree with the Senator that a petrol station in Donegal does not compete with one in Dublin. Where the choices are limited by the geographical area, we do not have a mandate to increase choice, but we have a mandate to prevent choice being substantially reduced when a merger takes place. That is something we have done. If we are asked to consider future mergers, we will continue to do that.

That concludes our consideration of the matter for today. I thank the representatives of the CCPC for appearing before the committee. I imagine they will appear before us again. Many questions remain unanswered. In fairness, there were some the witnesses could not answer. In some cases, I think they could have answered some version of them. Deputy Bruton made a good point in suggesting they could provide an interim answer for us.

I am led to believe that we need more legislation or more resources put into the CCPC. I know no public servant will come to the committee and say they need more resources, but the CCPC probably does need more resources. It is not credible that there has been no prosecution over fuel price gouging or anti-competitive practice. I again thank the witnesses for appearing.

The joint committee went into private session at 11.06 a.m. and adjourned at 11.17 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 30 March 2022.
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