Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action díospóireacht

Climate Action Plan Review: Discussion (Resumed)

An Cathaoirleach

I have received apologies from Deputy Alan Farrell and Senator Lynn Boylan. The purpose of this morning's meeting is to discuss the review of the climate action plan 2023 with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine. The Minister and his officials are very welcome.

Before we begin, I will read out a note on privilege. I remind the witnesses of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members that they are only allowed to participate in this meeting if they are physically located on the Leinster House campus. In this regard, I ask all members who are joining online or remotely from their offices to confirm, prior to making their contribution, that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Charlie McConalogue)

I thank the committee for the invitation and the opportunity to discuss the agriculture and land use, land use change and forestry chapter of the Climate Change Advisory Council’s annual review. We have binding commitments to deliver on reducing emissions, through the Paris Agreement and as a member of the EU, and at home through our targets set out in the climate Act. The Government has committed to a whole-of-economy 51% reductions target by 2030 and to reducing by 25% the agriculture sector’s emissions by 2030. In response, Ireland’s Climate Action Plan 2023 sets outs how we can accelerate the actions and measures required to respond to the climate crisis, ensuring climate solutions are at the centre of Ireland’s social and economic development. The climate action plan commits the agriculture sector to strong climate action and I have introduced measures to achieve abatement potential in the agriculture sector.

The Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, strategic plan, with a budget of €9.8 billion, will support farmers to transition to more sustainable practices while also supporting family farm incomes. In addition, we have provided a budget of €1.5 billion for the new agri-environment scheme, ACRES, a fivefold increase in funding for organic farming to €256 million, designed to triple to 7.5% the area of utilised agricultural area for organics, and €260 million to improve the carbon efficiency of the suckler herd through genetic improvement.

I also committed €43 million for a major genotyping programme for Irish cattle in May last. This programme will enhance the environmental sustainability, health and productivity of Irish beef and dairy herds. This is a voluntary genotyping programme, which is available to both beef and dairy herd owners, and will run over a five-year period from 2023 until 2027. It represents a significant step towards genotyping of the national bovine herd. By harnessing genetic data, the programme will empower Irish farmers to make informed breeding decisions, optimise herd management and animal welfare and contribute towards Ireland’s climate action targets.

The implementation of a low methane emitting breeding programme has significant potential to harness the genetic variation for methane emissions that exists within the national herd. This, in turn, will bring about permanent and cumulative reductions in the methane output of future generations of livestock. The results of the research also highlight the potential to breed more environmentally sustainable animals while not having a negative impact on food production. Progress continues to be made in relation to feed additives, which will have a significant positive impact on reducing emissions.

This year has seen the introduction of a national fertiliser database. This will allow my Department to collect a range of information on fertiliser products as well as details of fertiliser economic operators and end users. It will also support farmers in reducing usage and engaging with industry-led sustainability measurement. Nitrogen reduction is also supported through the continuation of aid for low-emission slurry spreading, LESS, equipment. Over 5,100 applications have been paid in full under the LESS measure of the targeted agricultural modernisation scheme 2 since its launch in 2015. From 2023, funding for this measure will increase from 40% to 60% under the recently launched TAMS 3 scheme. Alongside reducing the chemical fertiliser allowances for farmers under nitrates legislation, we are encouraging the adoption of protected urea, which will help to achieve ammonia emissions targets in addition to greenhouse gas emissions reductions. These changes can have benefits for the environment as well as profitability at farm level through a reduction in input costs.

My Department is also supporting the taking and analysis of up to 90,000 samples through phase 2 of the soil sampling and analysis programme over the next 12 to 18 months. Phase 2 will build on data gathered during the initial programme by providing valuable information to farmers to inform decisions that promote the health of their soils.

Nutrient management and soil health are central to achieving economic and environmental sustainability on farms. The Department has allocated €8.8 million to this programme, on top of €2.5 million for a multispecies sward scheme next year. These supports will enable farmers to reduce chemical fertiliser inputs, an economic benefit to the farmer and an environmental benefit to society while maintaining food production.

We know that some livestock farmers will take up diversification options that are provided as part of our climate transformation including areas such as organics, forestry, tillage and the production of renewables. However, given the efficiency gains that continue to be made at farm level, I remain confident that we will continue to reduce emissions in the agrifood sector without reducing our agrifood output through the following measures. On agri-centric biomethane production, it is estimated that up to 160,000 ha of land could be needed for an expanded AD industry of 5.7 TWh, to grow feedstock of 1.3 million tonnes of dry matter assuming 8 tonnes of grass dry matter per hectare. A strategy to guide the development of this sector, co-led by my Department and the Department of the Environment, Climate Action and Communications is being finalised for publication shortly. Indeed, it is being chaired by Mr. Bill Callanan here, an assistant secretary in my Department, in terms of co-ordinating across Departments in the production of that strategy.

With regard to tillage, our target as set out in the climate action plan is to increase the area of land devoted to tillage production to 400,000 ha by 2030, building on an increased area of 6% in 2022 over 2021 to approximately 339,000 ha. This will help build in greater resilience and self-sufficiency in terms of feedstocks and food security. Under the food vision strategy, a group focused on tillage has been meeting under the chairmanship of Mr. Matt Dempsey to propose recommendations on delivering on this ambition.

The new organic farming scheme opened up for applications in autumn of this year and resulted in a doubling of the number of farmers farming organically. In addition, substantial advisory supports have been introduced for organic farming. The Agricultural Consultants Association has received funding from my Department last year and this year to upskill advisers and hold organic farm walks. Teagasc and my Department jointly fund the new growing organics monitor farm programme, which was launched in spring of this year and will run for five years promoting best practice at farm level.

With regard to forestry, carbon sequestration is one of a range of important services being provided by sustainably managed forests. The new forestry programme, which was launched in September 2023, as well as developing, adopting and assessing Coillte's strategic vision, will enable us to capture additional carbon dioxide in forestry, soils and wood products by 2050.

On knowledge transfer, the Teagasc signpost programme, supported by my Department, is working with Irish farmers and a partnership of over 60 partner and supporter organisations across the agrifood sector to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, reduce ammonia emissions, reduce nutrient losses, enhance biodiversity and improve the efficiency of food production. A cohort of 100 signpost demonstration farms is at the centre of the signpost programme and covers all mainland-based enterprises. The objective of the signpost farms will be to employ the emerging new technologies, such as new breeding programmes and feed additives, and to facilitate the transfer of knowledge from these farms to every farm in Ireland.

With the support of my Department, Teagasc, the Irish Cattle Breeding Federation and Bord Bia are jointly developing a toolkit of tailored farm sustainability support and solutions for Irish farmers called AgNav. From 2024, it is targeted that 10,000 farmers will be utilising the platform each year. The platform will enable analysis at individual farm level of emissions and aid the farmer together with his or her climate adviser to identify the best measures on climate action and sustainability for implementation on his or her farm.

Critical to delivering our 2030 and 2050 commitments are science, innovation and knowledge exchange. Research supported by my Department and other public research funders will provide new tools and technologies to mitigate and offset agricultural emissions, which was profiled earlier this month at our inaugural Science into Action conference. Over the past ten years, my Department has allocated just under €60 million on climate, agri-environment and biodiversity research in agriculture. This is comprised of: €46.5 million on climate, greenhouse gas emission mitigation, adaptation, carbon sequestration, national inventories and climate-related co-benefit research; and €12.9 million on agri-environment for improving water quality and reducing ammonia emissions.

By way of practical example, in 2020 my Department provided funding of over €2 million for the establishment of a national agricultural soil carbon observatory by supplying the scientific infrastructure to measure greenhouse gas fluxes from soils under agricultural management. This technology will enable researchers to assess the impact of reduced management intensity on organic soils under agricultural management which is a key action area under the 2023 climate action plan. This project comprises of 30 flux towers spread across a range of soil types, under different management regimes throughout Ireland. The project is placing Ireland very much at the forefront of EU carbon sequestration research.

My officials are collaborating closely with the Environmental Protection Agency and the relevant technical experts to enhance the projections modelling on the mitigation measures identified in the climate action plan. It is important that this collaboration ensures that gaps in the research are identified and recommendations are made for the improvement of the inventory from a forestry, agriculture and land use and land use change perspective.

I thank the Chathaoirleach and the members who will speak here today. I look forward to engaging in the question and answer session.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister for his opening statement and the detail that is in it. At the outset, I commend the Minister, as I would any Minister who is leading a Department that is going through a significant change in the next few years. Agriculture certainly is one of the principal ones.

Deputy Bruton needs to leave. Does the Deputy want to come in to ask a question now? I can bring the Deputy in later if he wishes.

An Cathaoirleach

If the Deputy can come back, that would be good. I thank the Deputy for that. Deputy Whitmore is next.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

May I just make one statement? I have a real fear that when it comes to this issue and dealing with emissions within the sector, the Minister is putting his head in the sand in the same way he put his head in the sand when it came to the derogations. That did no one any good because now we have thousands of farmers who thought that things would change for them and that they would be able to continue with business as usual but Europe has come in and said business as usual is not acceptable. The fact that it appears the Minister is not even investigating this seriously indicates to me that he is walking those farmers off a cliff again and that he is still in this mode of business as usual, whereby we can try to expand the markets internationally without acknowledging or reflecting on the fact that we have to change how things happen here. Farmers have to be supported to make those changes, but there has to be honesty from the Government and from politicians as well to say that changes are needed and will have to happen. The Minister has to work with them to do that. I have a real fear, in that what he said indicates that he will not do that. Essentially, we will have a whole sector in which, when we get to 2030 and have to reduce emissions quickly, the herd will be the quickest way to do it. I issue that warning to him because he is doing the agriculture sector a disservice by not acknowledging what needs to happen and what needs to be done.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Minister want to respond to that?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

If Deputy Whitmore had been following my approach and my engagement across the agriculture sector closely, she would see that at all times I am honest about the challenges we have and what we have to do. I have been honest in the answer I have given her today as well as to where this particular proposal stands. I have been honest as well and provided solid leadership and clarity throughout the derogation piece.

The Deputy is right that is important. I am also being honest about the fact that as we look forward, food production is going to be important and we are blessed in our capacity to produce food. We can produce way more than we need domestically. I came back three or four weeks ago from a trade mission to South Korea. It is a country the same size as ours in landmass terms, but 70% of the country is mountain or forest and not in agricultural use, so only 30% of the country is used for agriculture. On a landmass the same size as ours, South Korea has a population of 51 million, so it can in no way produce enough food domestically for its population. It is therefore depending on other countries to produce the food the 51 million people need-----

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I do not think the country is depending on Ireland for that.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

-----given its land area. It is likewise in many other parts of the world. We must also be honest about the importance and the challenge coming down the tracks due to population growth and the fact countries that can must produce food. The challenge for all of us is to produce that food to the best of our capacity and productivity while reducing the emissions footprint of how we produce it and lowering it significantly to achieve the targets we have in place, just as with any other thing we do in any sector of the economy. The one thing that is certain is food is going to be needed and it is really important we do not ignore the importance of producing that food and that we try to at least maintain that, while taking the steps that are going to reduce the emissions footprint of how it is farmed and produced.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Whitmore. I will use this Government slot as no other Government members are indicating. I wish to pick up the Deputy's question on the challenge of sustainable food production and how we use land. I will focus on dairy. It is arguably the food the wider world needs and it is premium markets we are sending it to, which is certainly good for our economy and for those involved in the dairy sector, but it is arguable whether this is the food South Korea or developing nations need. The Minister might comment on that.

Picking up on Deputy Bruton's question, we are here because there is a provision built into the climate Act for a climate action plan to be published annually if we identify we are off track, and in pretty much every sector we are currently off track, so we are in a situation where we are having a revised climate action plan every year. With every such plan, new policies and measures have to be announced and added to the previous plan in order to try to get us back on track. The timing of this meeting and the meetings with the other Ministers is after the report of the Climate Change Advisory Council and the EPA report in the summer, but prior to the revision of the climate action plan. The purpose of having any Minister before this committee is to challenge the policies and for the Minister to inform us of what new measures may be coming down the track in the latest iteration of the climate action plan. The Minister has outlined in his statement what is being done currently and we welcome that, but given we are off track and acknowledging the very significant challenges that are there, what new measures does he see being added to the plan that will be published, I think, in a few weeks' time?

On anaerobic digestion, there is quite an ambitious plan for I think 200 digesters across the country by 2030. I cannot remember how many terawatt hours of energy that is. There is a conflict between AD and food production. The Minister must manage that conflict and I am interested to hear his thoughts on it. There is of course a conflict between biodiversity and nature protection and restoration and food production and anaerobic digestion as well, so it is not an easy one to get right. How does the Minister see that conflict being managed? We heard about a year ago from a researcher about the challenge of fugitive methane emissions from anaerobic digestion. This is an issue that is well-known in the fossil fuel industry. When natural gas or methane escapes up into the atmosphere it is, depending on the timeframe one is looking at, anything between 25 times and 85 times worse than carbon dioxide, so we must do everything we can to ensure there are not fugitive emissions from the agriculture sector as well as the fossil fuel industry. Are there measures or has the Minister's Department been thinking about how we can ensure that as we develop the AD sector in Ireland fugitive emissions do not become a future problem for us?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I thank the Cathaoirleach. Going back to dairying and whether that produces the food developing countries need, many products come out of our dairy sector. There is no doubt the food is very nutritious and a very worthwhile part of a balanced diet. It is a strong part of our diet, but also something that can really add to nutrition in many parts of the world. For example, I was in Nigeria a few months ago and while it does not buy cheese from us it buys milk powders for general consumption in small plastic packs. That is the main dairy product we send out. It is bought in shops in powder form and then mixed with water and drunk as a staple drink by people. It is a very low-cost, nutritious product in that country and there is strong market for it there. Again, Nigeria is country that is not self-sufficient in food at the moment. It had a great agricultural tradition, but because of domestic management challenges and economic challenges a country that used to be a net exporter of food is now a net importer of food. It is a country with a population of 200 million and it is growing rapidly. It is expected to have 500 million people by 2050 and become one of the largest countries in the world. That population trajectory indicates a significant food demand. The dairy product going there is not what we are used to or would find especially palatable either, but it is something that is quite popular and very economically sought-after as a nutritious food product there. Obviously, right across the sector our objective is to maximise the value from what we do, but with milk and dairy production our grass-based system, when compared with the primarily grain-based system used in the vast majority of other countries, means we have lower costs and a more sustainable model in terms of how we produce it. It therefore has an important role not just in high value markets but also as an example in relation to African markets as milk powders.

On new measures in the climate action plan, we continue to engage with research organisations, especially Teagasc, which developed the first marginal abatement cost curve, MACC, that fed into our climate action plan. Teagasc recently published an updated MACC looking at potential options and opportunities for diversification and new measures. We continue to look to see what is possible, because we want to do as much as we can and as much as we can deliver upon. For example, the very rapidly evolving research around feed additives is one of the spaces that can make a difference there. Another one is the capacity around anaerobic digestion. The Cathaoirleach is correct we must balance and consider that. We have set out targets that could see 10% of our total national gas usage by 2030 delivered through farms through anaerobic digestion. That leads to alternative land use where farmers decide to do that because it will be profitable for them to do so. As we go forward we must, in our policy environment, see how we balance one against the other.

I have no doubt that, in the decades ahead, ensuring that there is food security internationally will be balanced against how land is used for energy.

The issue of fugitive gas emissions will have to be central. Any use of anaerobic digestion, AD, is going to have to be sustainable. To drive this, it is important that the feed crop be grown in a sustainable way by using natural, good, fertile and healthy soil for natural types of legume and other plants.

Deputy Paul Murphy

It is not the Minister’s fault, but he is responsible for the No. 1 greenhouse gas-emitting sector of the economy. It has the lowest percentage reduction target to-----

An Cathaoirleach

My apologies for interrupting Deputy Murphy, but I have received a message from Deputy O’Rourke, who needs to go.

Deputy Paul Murphy

That is fine.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Deputy O’Rourke wish to contribute now? He is tight on time.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

If we are still here at 10.45 a.m., I would be happy to contribute then.

An Cathaoirleach

We can be if Deputy Murphy has lots of questions.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Then we certainly can be. Or we can go back and forth if the Deputy prefers.

I am a bit taken aback that the Minister did not at least distance himself from it.

Does the Minister accept the new research that suggests the potential for soil carbon sequestration on grasslands is much lower, and uncertain at best, compared with what was set out in previous research? Will he ensure that no carbon farming scheme is permitted to operate in Ireland on the basis of out-of-date scientific information?

Farm sizes in beef and sheep are much smaller. Our system is very different from those in other countries in Europe and across the Irish Sea, where there are much larger farms. It is not the case that the top 1% of farmers here are producing 30% of emissions; it is spread across all family farms.

Deputy Paul Murphy

An Cathaoirleach

We would appreciate if the Minister could send that note, addressing the concerns outlined from the Department's point of view, to the secretariat. Copies of it will then be circulated to members. I have a quick final question regarding the Ag Climatise action on the future of farming dialogue. Where are we at on that action at this point?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I will come back to the committee with a note on the up-to-date position on that action.

An Cathaoirleach

I would appreciate that. This has been a very interesting meeting. I thank the Minister for his engagement and for staying a little later than scheduled. I thank him for all the work he is doing in steering the sector in the right direction. There is a lot still to do but a lot is being done. I thank members for their engagement this morning.

Sitting suspended at 11.07 a.m and resumed at 1.41 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

Apologies have been received from Deputy Alan Farrell and Senator Boylan. The purpose of this meeting is to discuss and review the Climate Action Plan 2023. I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan.

As usual, before I begin, I will read out a note on privilege. I remind our guests of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members of the committee are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members that they are only allowed to participate in this meeting if they are physically located on the Leinster House campus. In this regard, I ask all members who are joining online or remotely from their offices to confirm, prior to making their contribution, that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Eamon Ryan)

I thank the Chair and members of the committee for inviting me here as part of the enhanced climate governance and reporting processes that were put in place by the Climate Act 2021. This provision in the Act supports greater transparency and accountability in how we plan and deliver our climate action. This committee has a critical role in this process, in reviewing the latest Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, and Climate Change Advisory Council, CCAC, reports before inviting Ministers to attend and discuss their performance in supporting the delivery of our climate ambition, and in meeting our sectoral emissions ceiling and carbon budgets. This is the first time we have engaged in this process under the legislative framework and it is significant in that regard.

The CCAC’s annual review and the EPA’s emissions reports play a key role in informing the Department’s preparation of the annual update to the climate action plan. They are key reference documents to inform and guide the consultation that takes place with stakeholders as part of the process to update and refine the policies, measures and actions within the plan. Following the publication of the CCAC's annual review in July, officials from my Department and members of the CCAC secretariat engaged in a series of one-to-one consultations on individual sectors at which they discussed the review, its recommendations and how this would inform the ongoing work to prepare Climate Action Plan 2024.

Furthermore, in October, in response to a letter from the Chair of the Oireachtas joint committee, my Department issued a detailed response to the recommendations set out in the CCAC's annual review. This year’s annual review highlighted how, at the current rate of implementation, Ireland will not stay within the limits of our first two carbon budgets. I will, however, outline some key points that are important to understand. Ireland’s population and economy have grown significantly over the past few years. With that come more people in employment, more people travelling to work, more business, more houses being built and more recreational activity. Given this backdrop, seeing Ireland’s emissions fall last year was welcome. When the Government started, we had forecast less population growth and less GDP growth and an increased emissions trajectory by 2030. Last year, this was forecast to drop by 29% given significantly more people and greater economic activity. I expect this year that the 2030 projections will be lower again.

We are, however, changing course. This year, our use of coal for electricity fell by 54% to the end of October, our use of oil fell by 83% and our use of gas fell by 5%. Our interconnectors are working to displace high-carbon fuel with lower carbon imports. Our fertiliser use is down by more than 25% in two years and our use of heating fuels is falling by almost 10% in the year to date. I expect that this year, Ireland's emissions will fall at an accelerating rate, given lower energy use in most sectors and lower emissions in agriculture. We should be optimistic in believing the changes we are bringing are having an impact, which I expect to accelerate each year if we stay the course.

I will start on the Minister’s point that this can be done. I agree 100% that it can be done. I am not a climate doom-monger. It think it is possible. It is important not to prettify what is actually happening, however. If we want to do it, we have to deal with the actual reality and the actual reality is that in every single sector we are off track. If we continue with the plan as we have been going we will miss the targets by a significant degree. What we need to be seeing from the Minister in his capacity here in terms of the particular sectors he is responsible for, and the other Ministers we meet, is new plans and new initiatives to make up for what we are now behind on because of the failures over the past couple of years. Does the Minister accept that we cannot just continue with the plans that have been laid out or we will end up missing the targets by a great deal?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I completely accept that. The scale of the challenge should not be underestimated. It is not an easy one. There are two or three things which will help. First, the governance structures we have are serving us. I refer to the CCAC, with its recommendations and review, and the back-up information provided by the EPA, SEAI and other entities that do the modelling for us. We have a good governance structure. We will see how this works in really making corrective action but I would not change those systems. The CCAC’s review and work is very helpful in this regard.

Then there is where I see some of the significant changes that might see a further leap or jump. I was speaking on this in Dáil questions this morning. This is not to blame our planning system or legal system but we clearly have a problem in our legal system and planning system that leads to delivery of projects in a time line that is not compatible with meeting our climate targets. It is not just planning; it is administrative as well. Between the three, we have a system that takes ten years to deliver a bus lane. The Deputy would have been involved. BusConnects started 2016. We are waiting almost two years to get some of the BusConnects projects through An Bord Pleanála. That is due to very specific projects and issues in An Bord Pleanála over the past two years. That is not to blame it but it is a reality that we in the Department of Transport have been waiting. I do not want to get into that too much, but the same applies to other things.

Take wind farms. With the meeting of our renewables target, our biggest challenge is that we have a whole load of wind and solar projects in planning. When they come through the planning process, they tend to be subject to judicial review. That involves an incredibly elongated and expensive process that does not necessarily serve the public, particularly because it is so expensive and protracted. The Planning and Development Bill, the Second Stage debate on which will taken in the House next week, is critical. We can do all we can on the administrative side but if matters are completely and endlessly jammed up in the courts, then that becomes an issue. That is the constitutional separation of powers and you cannot easily turn that but I think that is our biggest problem.

Second, one thing we have been doing to try to accelerate change is developing these six task forces which we have established to deliver on the climate action plan within central government. We recognise that the latter works best when you break out of silos and bring in outside agencies. The six that I see as critical are the offshore wind, sustainable mobility, heat and the built environment, just transition, climate communications and the land use review.

I can go into the details of any one of those. I will give an example of how it can work. I have just come from a meeting of the task force on heat and built environment in the SEAI offices. It was an opportunity to bring everyone together. We made decisions this morning on our public buildings and on district heating. We had a long discussion on the issue of anaerobic digestion. Those are examples of complex projects that have taken too long.

Regarding district heating, the Poolbeg incinerator has been pumping out waste heat inefficiently for about eight years. Five or six years ago, Dublin City Council was given €20 million to try to rectify that. That was not progressing but it will now. I am confident that we will go to the procurement stage and we will see it delivered. The task force approach, where we are not just working in individual Department silos but putting together government, outside agencies and other representatives, is a key evolution or advancement since last year. Most of those task forces were not in place when we drafted the Climate Action Plan 2023 and they are all up and running now. That is a key mechanism.

Deputy Paul Murphy

I do not deny the issue with planning, administration, etc. However, the biggest obstacle we face lies with vested interests, those who profit from the current model, including agribusiness which the Minister before us today is obviously not responsible for. However, he is responsible for the big tech sector and specifically energy usage by data centres. They currently use 18% of our electricity and are on track to use 30%. These new data centres which are coming on board are massive and the eight or nine hyper data centres will use as much electricity between them as the 70 or 80 that we already have. Does the Minister accept that if we continue on that trajectory of more and more data centres using more and more electricity and fossil fuels directly, with gas, it makes it implausible for us to electrify, meaning that we will need to electrify other parts of the economy and to shift to renewables? If we take the high-growth scenario of EirGrid, a 500% growth in electricity demand from data centres this decade would require a quadrupling of renewable electricity generation. All of that is then used by the data centres. If we are serious about meeting our electricity targets, which is the Minister's responsibility, the simplest, easiest and most rational thing to do is to decide we have had enough of data centres and focus on shifting to renewables and trying to bring our usage down, where possible.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

The advantage of this approach where each sector has to play its part is that no one gets an out. On entering government in the summer of 2020, it became apparent that we had a very large volume of data centres which were looking for connection and had been approved. We identified that we would have difficulty if we keep saying "Yes". First, we would not have the power to be able to service them or give the grid connections. Second, it would make it impossible for us to meet our emissions reductions targets. Along with EirGrid and the ESB, and with the involvement of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, we very quickly said we had to stop issuing new contracts or new connections.

The Government does not breach existing commitments. Where we had told a company it was in a process towards being able to develop, we do not reverse engines on that. That is not how the State works, and to my mind that is correct. However, I subsequently wrote to Gas Networks Ireland making the very strong case and giving clear direction that we cannot continue to offer new gas grid connections because we need to switch to a new way of managing, operating and delivering our data centres. I think we can do so in a way that they play their part in meeting our emissions reductions targets, but also providing many benefits for our economy. We have significant employment. Many of the companies involved in running data centres are based in my constituency with tens of thousands of people employed.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Is the Minister saying that tens of thousands of people are employed in the data centres?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

No, but tens of thousands of people are employed in the companies associated with those data centres. The data centres are the core of their business. These are all cloud-based companies now. That the cloud-based companies are here is a significant reason for other investments coming here. We have been working with the companies on the basis that any new data centres will have to live within a system where we can provide the power and the grid connections. That has been a constraint issue in the last two years. We are starting to address it with emergency power generation, new renewables coming on stream and new interconnection, all of which will help. Critically, it is to design and develop data centres that are zero-carbon. There needs to be a combination of use of renewable power, use of flexible demand and use of waste heat. For example, I believe Tallaght is using an Amazon data centre to heat some of the buildings in south Dublin. We should go further in that and look at all the flexibilities that will be needed so that data centres can empirically show they are part of the solution and not part of the problem. I think that is possible.

The country benefits not just by having the data centres here but also the Irish companies that build, service and run them are highly advanced. We are probably one of the most advanced countries in the world in building and running data centres. We should not turn our back on that. However, we should develop and will develop the expertise to do it in a zero-carbon way which is where that industry is going. No industry can get an out. Those companies cannot be in operation in ten years' time if they are not meeting the scope 1, 2 and 3 emissions targets. Why should we not look to become a world leader in that next stage of data centre development? It will take a number of years to build up that capability, get the grid connections and in particular have the power security in renewables to be able to service it. However, that demand management flexibility is key and the use of waste heat is key. The use of the backup services they have to support our grid is where we will go.

This new industrial revolution is a digital and clean energy one. The two go together. The balance in capability between variable supply and variable demand is delivered by use of those digital networks. I see us having a real advantage by being good at that. There is no open door. No new data centres have been approved in the last three years in my time in government. However, we are working with the companies to start looking at a future where that can be done in a way that is in line with our climate obligations.

Deputy Paul Murphy

I may contribute again later.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I share the Minister's positive approach. It is good that we are on track to deliver our effort-sharing commitment to the 42% reduction, taking into account a lower level of offsets. That is a significant milestone. It is short of what we set out in our legislation but it is a significant step forward and there are very positive trends there.

There is huge potential for Ireland to deliver renewable energy on a much wider scale. Representatives from the Climate Change Advisory Council recently appeared before the committee. They were pretty withering in saying some of the things the Minister has already touched on. We really need the spatial planning guidelines and the guidelines on onshore wind. I know planning delays have dogged many of our ambitions. There is also the regulatory treatment of battery storage. Those are things we should be able to move along. Quite surprisingly, the CCAC talked about how other countries are asserting overriding national interest to push through and overcome some of the planning obstacles. That has many risks but it shows how they are thinking about the urgency of this versus the planning constraints.

While we had a successful offshore auction, the subsequent RESS has not been so successful. There have been suggestions from some quarters that that indicates the market is cooling off in its enthusiasm to be part of the Irish model.

We need to hear more about that. I am looking forward to the loan scheme that is going to help people deliver retrofits. A key piece will be the interest rate. I think the ambition is that, between the grants and the loans, people can pay for the entire thing from the savings they generate, or that is the sort of model the Minister has articulated. Can we get to that? It could be a potential game-changer.

I would be interested to hear how we are going to push through on district heating. The Minister said he felt there was a breakthrough there.

On mobility hubs, it seems a very practical thing that we could have in our city and it will promote the idea of sharing vehicles using public transport and active transport from these hubs. That is something I would like to see accelerated as one of the measures that pick up speed in some of our areas. It is disheartening that, even now, the four Dublin local authorities have not yet delivered their procurement for EV charging capacity. We have a lot of estates across the city, including in my own area, for which EV charging is not going to be practical because of the configuration of the homes. They need public space EV chargers.

We heard presentations that we should be looking at the weight of cars, as well as CO2 and so on. Has the Minister given any thought to that? The huge penetration of very heavy SUVs into the motor market is perverse. Can we do anything to incentivise change?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

There are quite a few points and I will try to deal with them all. I will pick up on the two points on vehicles and retrofits as examples of where progress is possible. In both cases, we are ahead of target. Although I do not have the exact final figure, more than 37,000 houses will be retrofitted this year, which is ahead of what was planned. The low-interest loans which will kick in during January and February next year will further bolster that because it will open up the grant system to those who are not currently eligible for the warmer homes scheme. I do not see that stopping. The key thing that we have to learn is that it must not be stop-start and we have to build up the supply chain, which has been the biggest constraint, for example, with regard to getting the contractors. Retrofitting is a very good example of that.

With regard to the weight of cars, there will be heavier cars coming because the electric cars are coming and they are also heavy, but they are heavy in a different way to the large SUVs. We are now at about 28% for plug-in, 21% for full EV and 7% or 8% for plug-in hybrids. Again, I do not see that reversing. We are ahead of the UK, which is our nearest and most obvious competitor. We will have to look at the tax issue next October. One of the things I will be saying to the Minister for Finance is that we need to consider the emissions of an SUV over the ten to 15 years of its lifetime, apart from the safety issues. We need to consider what is the cost to the Exchequer if we do not meet our European commitments and targets as we would have to pay for closing the gap through statistical transfers with other countries if we do not meet our effort-sharing agreement. I hope that may change the Department of Finance's view in terms of continuing where we have been going, which is to tax more for the high-polluting and less for the non-polluting. The economic case for that becomes all the stronger when we realise that an SUV running for 15 years is costing the Irish public in terms of its emissions, which may be above target, and therefore, that may justify ongoing revisions to our tax system, which I think the Deputy is suggesting. However, that is part of the budget process and we will have to agree it in October next year.

The Deputy mentioned the transport issue. One of the mechanisms we have to help us is the use of the climate action fund. The Deputy was there as Minister and he gave the first allocation to the district heating scheme, with €20 million to the ESB and others, and it has since built up. There are a number of projects that I believe are best funded through the climate action fund, and included in that is the widespread deployment of mobility hubs - I understand the Deputy has a similar perspective. The only example so far was the one delivered by Dublin City Council in Finglas about a year and a half ago, and it is an e-car and e-bike sharing system. There is a great benefit to be had from this. We are not just going to replace every combustion engine car with an electric car as we would still have congestion problems and we would be trading an import dependency on oil and gas for an import dependency on rare batteries, minerals and so on. Moving towards promoting car sharing as a concept is a key part of where we need to go, and one of the projects we will launch next year is the mobility hub concept spread out much more widely. It will probably start in cities, and we will probably start in one city and then develop and deploy it, and use the climate action fund to support that. Hopefully, we can create a model whereby car sharing becomes a much more convenient and cheaper option for people to have mobility.

The Deputy asked why we are not seeing the level of renewables that we want and expect. I would give three reasons or three issues that we need to address. The first is the planning issue. To answer the question as to why we got a lower number of successful projects through the latest RESS auction, the main reason is that we have not got anything through planning so there are no projects ready to go into an auction process. As soon as they come through, it will happen. The whole idea with these auctions is to have them regularly so we reduce the capital risk and, therefore, reduce the cost. I am confident that as soon as we get projects through the planning system, we will get them into an auction system. That is probably the first and most critical key constraint.

There is also a grid constraint. We have a real challenge in both the ESB and EirGrid in being able to scale up the level of grid upgrades that are needed. It is huge and unprecedented, both in terms of connecting to offshore wind and the major transmission upgrades going right down to the local level. The ESB has a very good plan where it is looking at local 10 kV substations to put in battery storage so we get local flexibility and the capability of having an adaptive grid.

I think both the ESB and EirGrid are on the right track for shaping our electricity future and their plan for the future design of the grid is the right one. They have optimised a lot of the existing grid. For example, with offshore, rather than it being developer-led, where we just chase wherever developers think they want to put in the wind farms, we instead used the designated maritime area plan, DMAP, process to say that they will bid in a certain area because that is where we can optimise the grid and reduce the amount of onshore grid reinforcement that we have to do. Similarly, they are shaping our electricity future by looking at the midlands as a potential location, particularly where we might look at hubs where we put together very efficient use of energy systems, thereby putting the use close to the renewable source and close to the grid. In shaping our electricity future, the ESB strategies are the right ones. However, everyone in the industry and elsewhere would admit that it needs to accelerate.

The third thing that needs to accelerate within our Department concerns the policy areas. We have done some very good policy work recently; the energy security package that we delivered two weeks ago was first class and it is similar with the hydrogen strategy, and so on. I constantly say to civil servants that, having delivered that, we now need to deliver the next thing, and the two on the top of my list would be storage and private wires. I know some people are critical and sceptical of private wires; they say it has never been done that way and they ask why we would change our ways. One of the reasons I am keen to do it is due to the scale of renewables that we need. I think we could quite quickly ramp up both storage and renewables generation close to industry, which would help to embed industry here and be part of a balancing system. Within our Department, I think those two policy areas are two of the clear priorities that we need to develop and deliver. I accept that is not a complete answer to the Deputy’s question.

I will point to one thing that we have learned from the offshore auctions. I think we got the offshore auctions right in terms of the price, given the inflation that existed in the market and the uncertainty. We have seen our neighbours in the UK not getting an auction out.

On the other side of the Atlantic, New York, which is quite similar to us, is getting auctions through but the projects are unlikely to be built. Our projects will be built, subject to planning timelines. Part of the reason for that is we took on the risk of the curtailment and constraint. That risk lies better with the State than with the developer. The question now for the State is how we use the approximately 13 TW hours of surplus renewable electricity we will have by the end of the decade. That is an industrial policy issue in terms of how we create the flexibility in our pricing and market systems to use that power. We can do it. It is technical, but it is the centre of the revolution.

Deputy Richard Bruton

In the context of guidelines for offshore wind, they seem to be waiting forever-----

Deputy Eamon Ryan

My apologies. I forgot to address that issue. The Deputy is correct. We have had difficulty with the guidelines for onshore wind in particular. He will be aware there was a significant amount of difficulty between the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of the Environment and Climate Action. Historically, there were different views on that. We ended up with a solution that was not workable in terms of the application of the WHO guidelines. It was not technically feasible in the context of the way they were drafted. We have a changed approach that will be delivered next year. We need to integrate our regional plans and local authority development plans with our renewable energy and shaping electricity plans. That integration of renewables into the local authority development plans will be one of the other key developments next year.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister. Deputy Bruton also asked about low-cost loans and district heating, but I want to be fair to colleagues and bring them in. I do not doubt they, too, will have questions on those areas.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

We will need both microgeneration and large-scale. It is interesting how things change. Had the Deputy asked me ten or 15 years ago whether I thought small-scale wind had a future, I would have said "Yes". Now, the answer is "Yes", but only in very isolated areas or certain inaccessible places where the wind is very strong. The reality is that larger turbines are so much more efficient and that is why the industry has gone towards that direction. It means we have fewer turbines and that helps from an environmental perspective.

We are now up to approximately 800 MW of solar already. Had the Deputy told me ten years ago we would put in 800 MW like we did in the past year and a half, I might not have believed him. That is phenomenal. We will deliver up to 5 GW in the next few years. Solar comes in two forms. There are real efficiencies. Larger solar farms are more efficient and economic, so we will see those. We will also see microgeneration. The numbers of households getting solar panels put on their roofs are flying, so to speak. It is the same with businesses.

There is a real issue on the politics of this that we develop community energy. Deputy O'Rourke, who is sitting beside Deputy Kenny, was at the event organised by the European Commission about empowering citizens. It is really important we see more community energy. We have not developed that as much as I would like. We have certain projects that got through the renewable energy support scheme, RESS, system but they are such a challenge, particularly on the grid. Their ability to access the grid is a real constraint. One of the developments that will be coming in the next month or two is a support price for community power up to 5 MW. That will be a step change in terms of seeing some of those community projects being developed. We need both, but we cannot say no to the big projects because one of the advantages is that they bring the price down. There is an issue of affordability. We have to make sure the public get electricity that is not so expensive. Therefore, I do not think we can say that we cannot have any big wind turbines. We would have to explain to the public then why they are paying high electricity bills.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

The science is variable and very complex, and we still have a target of 51%. That target is not going to change regardless of the complexity of achieving it.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

So carbon capture and storage will probably be a component of the 2004 plan.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Yes, as an example of a measure we will have to consider. That might become something we would look to incorporate in a revision of the second budget of the sectoral emissions ceilings which is from 2026 to 2030. There will be a process where we would assess those options and come to agreement on them in time for them to be set into the climate budget for 2026 onwards.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank the Minister for being here. I made the point about the climate action plan coming out from the Bill that, whatever our criticisms of the contents or the policy decisions, the fact we have it is probably as good a measure of progress as there is in many of these institutions. It is an important feature and to be commended and welcomed.

I want to pick up on a point Deputy Bruton made about planning. After questions on foreign affairs, we will go on to Second Stage of the planning legislation which is huge and complex.

We have already pointed out the challenges in the formal planning system regarding planners, environmental NGOs and notifiable bodies and both sides of these considerations. There were provisions in the renewables directive that almost gave a green light for the fast-tracking of renewables projects, and there are risks associated with that. Other countries have taken a different approach. Can I get a sense of where that is going? Is Ireland going to employe any of those opportunities or licences?

I ask about the planning Bill that is going through the Houses, the resourcing of the planning system, and the regional renewable spatial plans that are due to be ready. I believe they are already late at this stage.

I also raise the issue of maximising the potential the grid and the hybrid policy, given that hybrid connections were mentioned in the energy security review.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

The Deputy is correct to focus on these elements. This is complicated because we have our national targets and our national legislative system, but we are also doing something similar in a European system where we have effort-sharing. Not only that, we also have the 20 pieces, I think it is now, of the European Fit for 55 legislation that will drive so much of this and place so many requirements on us.

Included in the renewable energy directive, as I recall, is that within 18 months of it being transposed, we will have to do the acceleration maps to show how we will meet it. The EU fundamentally sees it being a digital, green and renewable future and it wants every country to try to accelerate that. The regional authorities will have a key role in that, as the Deputy said, and they have a role working with the local authorities to work out those regional plans around how the local development plans have to be adjusted to give us the clear guidelines. That work is ongoing and to be concluded for first or second quarter next year. I am going on memory here now. Next year there is a timeline for us to start delivering it. There is a similar timeframe, I understand, for the issue of hyper-connection, which I very much support. This goes back to what I said earlier about where we can put it to different uses. It is not just wind and solar together. One can also look at other uses close to the development. That is a matter for the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, to deliver. It has it broken down into three parts of the work-stream and is working with EirGrid and with the system operators. It has submitted proposals to CRU and expects it to make a decision very shortly on us being able to deliver that.

I will go back to make one last point on what is happening in Europe. I spoke to Deputy Whitmore about environment being the key constraint and there is a real challenge in how we integrate the scaled development of renewables and other technologies to meet our climate targets, the existing European Union habitats and water frameworks, and other environmental legislation. It is a real challenge and the EU has recognised that. This is why the whole new legislative package is coming through so that we do not trip ourselves up, as it were. With offshore wind we must be sensitive to seabird populations to take one example. We must also consider the quality of the marine floor and the ecology there. It cites a whole range of different environmental challenges. I am hearing from European Union colleagues who are already further advanced on this. It may not be that there is a complete yes or no or black and white situation where one cannot do anything there. We may be able to use and develop technology. If, for instance, there is an area where seabird activities are critical at certain times of the day or the year with migratory patterns, we would switch off the turbines. The technology could be adjusted for nature. This gives greater flexibility to deploy the technology. It is not the case that we need to have such blanket restrictions. Similarly, I give the example that one of the most challenging aspects could be forestry. It is interesting. I met Commissioner Sinkevičius in the summer and discussed the development of our new forestry programme. There is recognition of the real challenges and conflicting interests between - let us say - the curlew and other marshland or wetland bird species, or between other farmland bird life, which is very much a threatened species. How we develop our forestry model is going to have to get this balance right. It is going to have to be an adaptive system that allows us restore nature but also meet our climate targets. Sometimes they will compete and getting the balance right on that is probably the most complicated and challenging thing we have to do.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I will make one point and then I have a follow on question in the area of residential heat. The Minister spoke about CAP 24 being very similar to CAP 23. In the area of residential heat, for our part, Sinn Féin has spoken about the opportunities, and others are in exactly the same place as we can see from the partnership on climate change and sustainable energy, CCSE, from Friends of the Earth and from others. There are opportunities and a necessity in the context of local authority homes and retrofitting for homes that use solid fuels such as turf and coal. There is opportunity in recognising that workforce is an issue in this regard, and in looking at aggregating and taking an area-based approach. Fingal County Council has an ongoing pilot and there is opportunity to significantly expand that. I will leave this with the Minister.

Heat pumps and heat pump delivery is also an area that has been identified. I have looked at the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, energy projection out to 2030, which document was published this month. Any of us dealing with this in this space for the past number of years are dealing with people who have had heat pumps installed. There are challenges around the homes that are appropriate and can take a heat pump. A heat loss indicator study is ongoing. There is also the challenge of the economics of a heat pump. It is acknowledged by SEAI that for many people heat pumps can be very expensive to run compared to fossil fuels. Will CAP 24 contain anything new for heat pump delivery either in supports or alternative options there?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I am just getting some advice from my Department officials here. It is tricky sometimes in committee when the civil servants cannot speak at all. I do not know why the rules are such. I do not want to bring the committee into private session.

An Cathaoirleach

The Minister can do that if he wishes.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Sometimes I believe we are too restrictive. I will not challenge that but it is good to hear from the civil servants sometimes because they do have the expertise.

On the broader point, we are ahead of target on the retrofitting targets. The warmer homes scheme is 100% grant funded for those on low incomes. The main criteria for that scheme is that the applicants are entitled to the fuel allowance. There were some 6,000 homes upgraded this year. This is very significant. Priority is given to those in houses that have the really worst BER rating, in the E, F or G categories. That tends to then target those who are using solid fuels because typically there would be a correlation between people with very poor BER rating for their home and the use of less efficient heating systems. There is huge demand for that not scheme. This is not surprising because it is 100% paid for. The scheme is working with some 6,000 homes upgraded in 2023. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is responsible for the social housing stock. I believe it is due to do to 2,000 houses this year. I would love to see that figure go up every year. That is a matter for the budget allocation. One of the real things we need to do is look at how we aggregate and maybe mix between public and private, social housing other housing. If one is going into an estate-----

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I believe this is what Fingal County Council is doing with the pilot it has there.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

That does make sense because the cost comes down, be the homes private, social, owned by the council or owned by the citizen. We must look at how we do it.

There are some 3,000 heat pumps going in under the grant system this year. We need to see that accelerating. This is one figure that is not going up as fast as I would like. We need to really push that. The July study referred to was the first of a pilot test where SEAI was looking at where setting of the standards was too rigid for when a house would benefit from a heat pump. Typically, they went very high in building and energy efficiency ratings. That study has started now. My officials tell me - and this is where the detail is useful - that we will have to wait until next year to see the results of it because one must look at a full year and have a full year analysis to assess how it has worked. From the people I would respect and listen to on this, my sense is that we need to be slightly more flexible. The benefit of heat pumps is so real and it is clear at this stage that they are the best technology for the Irish climate for a house that has a good level of insulation. They are the best heat, the lowest maintenance, and easiest to operate.

There are huge advantages with the use of heat pumps. We need to scale that up. We need to multiply the number of heat pumps going in.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I did not realise that. The Minister clearly has sectoral responsibility and I would be reluctant to tread on his toes in any way. I might answer the Deputy's question on the coherence of overall Government policy, for which, as climate Minister, I have responsibility. I earlier mentioned the various task forces we have set up. Three of the most significant, and they are the ones that have been set up most recently, are in communications, just transition and land use review. They are all related to this topic.

The just transition task force has been established with Mr. Kieran Mulvey, the just transition commissioner, chairing a group made up of the social partners, including representatives of the farming organisations, as well as ICTU, IBEC, environmental NGOs and social justice organisations. Just transition for Irish agriculture and farming must be central. The task force will be coming forward with recommendations to the Government in the spring, and to the Oireachtas thereafter, for how we legislate and deliver our just transition commission process.

The communications task force is also working. It recognises that we will not deliver the scale of public support required if it is top-down Government messaging that tells people what to do. We should certainly not blame or shame any one sector and tell the people in the sector they are the problem and tell them what needs to be done. The year ahead will be one of detailed engagement within and between communities and sectors as to how they see themselves and their role in this transition. We must recognise that the research shows the vast majority of Irish people want to make this leap.

The third task force, the one most recently established and which has not got much attention, relates to land use review. The land use review was the most important climate element of the programme for Government because our land use emissions are so significant and the relationship with agriculture and forestry is so real. The land use review task force is chaired by Ms Geraldine Tallon, the former Secretary General of the Department of the environment. Professor Mark Scott of UCD is providing a lot of work in the technical working group, building on the work that was done in the past two years by the EPA, Teagasc, and our own Department on the technical aspects. Dr. Rory O'Donnell, former head of NESC, is chairing the engagement part of that task force. We spoke earlier about admitting some of the uncertainty, particularly regarding land use. That provides us with an opportunity to go to the agricultural sector and other sectors, and say that we should work together and not create a divisive environment that pits the Green Party against farmers or environment against agriculture. Let us acknowledge some of the complexities and uncertainties, and work out ways in which we can address and reduce emissions, learn by doing and avail of and pay for the skills that farmers have in terms of how we manage land and make this transition. That is a completely different approach than us telling farmers they are the problem. It is an approach that the likes of the farming organisations and co-operatives are up for. The co-operatives in particular realise that if you are trading as an Origin Green brand but are not Origin Green in reality, you are goosed. The biggest crime in this world today is greenwashing. I think, therefore, that we can sit down and work collectively and build on what has already happened. As I said, the numbers of people going into organic farming has trebled. The use of nitrogen fertilisers has dropped by 25% or 30% in the past two years. That is saving farmers money. Our approach cannot be antagonistic and must be collaborative. We will systematically take that approach. We will look to engage and listen and not just tell people what to do.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

The plan for reductions in the dairy sector was a voluntary scheme and would have to have been a part of just transition. It would have given farmers an alternative. However, that work does not seem to be progressing at all, which is a shame.

I will come in. There is a difficulty. A sectoral approach is very good, in a way, to hold Departments and Ministers responsible. There is crossover, however and nature-based solutions are going to be key. How we manage our rivers is going to be important and key. I agree with the Deputy on the issue on the River Shannon. It is a big challenge for us to change that system to accommodate not only eels but also salmon. The ESB has a real responsibility to help in that regard.

It is not just the ESB, however. A programme to remove obstacles in rivers is going to be developed. There is a similar issue at the nearby Annacotty Weir. The obstacles are not always hydro dams. We will be looking to invest in removing obstacles to allow both eels and salmonoid fish to get up and down. The benefit is that it is part of an integrated system. The level of oxygen in a river is a relation of various functions, one of which is the free-flowing nature of the rivers. Nature is complicated. It is not simple. What we have to do in agriculture might vary depending on the nature of the river system. We could change the river and help farming, strangely, if the Deputy knows what I mean, and vice versa. It is all connected. In general, on the issue around hydromorphology and river basin catchment management systems, the land use review has to optimise for rural development, biodiversity, carbon storage, ammonia, nitrogen and water pollution. It is about optimisation; they are all connected. That is why we cannot completely separate the issues. They are connected.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Will the Minister communicate with the ESB in respect of that issue?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Whitmore and I thank the Minister. We are scheduled to finished just now. I thank the Minister and his officials for coming in today even if the officials could not speak. When the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue, was in earlier I commended him on the work he is doing in agriculture to steer the very difficult big ship. I also commend the Minister, Deputy Ryan, on what he is doing. A huge amount is being done but it is not easy and there is a lot more to do as. In the committee today we did get a sense of what is happening and what needs to happen. I believe I speak for colleagues when I say we can look forward to the new climate action plan when it is published in a few weeks' time and engaging with that and having the Minister in again next year to look at that and to monitor progress as we go. I wish the Minister well in Dubai at COP 28. The Minister is travelling there tomorrow and hopefully we will get good news from that in the week ahead.

The committee adjourned at 3.33 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 5 December 2023.

Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action díospóireacht - Thursday, 30 Nov 2023

Climate Action Plan Review: Discussion (Resumed)

Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action díospóireacht -
Thursday, 30 Nov 2023