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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Jun 2003

Vol. 1 No. 9

Retail Planning Guidelines: Presentation.

I welcome Mr. Jim Marshall, president, and Ms Ailish Forde, director general, of RGDATA. We will hear a presentation from Ms Forde before taking questions from committee members.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Ms Ailish Forde

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for giving us the opportunity to come and discuss what I consider to be a very important subject. The main reason I want to address the committee is to outline the background to the introduction of the retail planning guidelines to counter an impression that they were cobbled together in order to protect small retailers. That is not the case. Many years of study went into the guidelines before they came into effect and I would like to bring the committee through the process.

The original planning guidelines were introduced by the Government in January 2001 following concerns about the impact of large-scale retail developments in out of town locations. The Government's concerns about this were largely drawn from experiences in other countries, notably the United Kingdom, where there had been an experience of hyper-markets and superstore developments. This largely happened during the Thatcher years between 1977 and 1990, during which time over 550 superstores were developed, mainly on greenfield sites in out of town centres and close to major roads. The planning system was unprepared for such an onslaught of development and while it may have led the major retailers to gain market share quite quickly, they did so at enormous expense to the social and economic fabric of society in the United Kingdom, so much so that by the mid-1990s almost half of the towns and villages in the United Kingdom did not have a shop, which remains the case today.

Part of the original motivation for permitting such a growth in out of town developments was a perceived desire to ease the traffic pressure in town centres. However, in retrospect, both in the United Kingdom and other countries, the authorities realised that policy was misguided and dangerous and resulted in many more problems than solutions. In particular, it resulted in a reduction of shopping opportunities for the less mobile, it undermined the viability and vitality of town centres and led to the destruction of valuable countryside. It also had a serious impact on employment, an important point. When we hear of large multinational operators talking about developing new large stores, they tend to major on the employment they will bring. However, the experience in the United Kingdom in the early 1990s is interesting in this regard because while 10,500 jobs were created by a catchment of 93 new superstores, nearly 25,000 were lost as a direct consequence. When I hear retailers saying they will create new jobs in a new outlet, I point out that, at the very least, that is displaced employment because the people who will work there are working in other retail outlets now. The UK experience showed that not only was it displaced employment but that the net effect was a reduction in employment by almost double figures.

Only after considerable damage had been done to the town centres did the UK Government act. In 1996 it introduced planning controls but by then the damage had been done and 42% of towns and villages did not have a shop. They are still trying to recover from that position today. This has not just happened in the United Kingdom. In France there was a rapid development of hyper-markets in the 1970s and 1980s and there are now large parts of France where there is no local shopping and where, even to get the most basic item, people must get into their car and drive to the shop. That is all very well if one has access to a car. However, if one does not, it leaves one in a difficult position.

The concern in Ireland was that some retailers had indicated they wished to develop superstores and hyper-market formats here and the Government was justifiably concerned from two major points of view. A lot of investment has been put into the infrastructure of the country to try to ease traffic congestion and there was a concern that if these types of developments were allowed, they would clog up the infrastructure and lead to added congestion. The investment was not put in place to ferry shoppers from one end of the country or city to the other. In this regard, the M50 is a good example. The Government was also concerned with urban renewal in the context of the dispersed population in Ireland. County Monaghan is the same size as greater Manchester but the population of the former is about 53,000, whereas that of the latter is about 2.4 million. We are dealing with different circumstances.

Up until the late 1990s, there was nothing to stop any retail operator opening such a large format store anywhere in the country. They had carte blanche and clearly indicated that their intent was to grow market share by developing these superstores, which are normally located outside town and city centres and adjacent to bypasses. The guidelines were introduced following the implementation of a planning directive in 1998 which capped the size of retail grocery stores at 3,000 square metres. That was introduced as an interim measure while people took the opportunity to examine the situation properly.

Following a process of selection, a two stage process was adopted which included having five sets of independent consultants examine the whole area. The first stage of the process was that a leading firm of planning consultants, Roger Kinman Partners, was appointed and prepared a comprehensive study for Government together with draft guidelines in association with Jonathan Blackwell and Associates, an Irish planning company. The experts submitted the study and draft guidelines to the then Department of the Environment and Local Government in April 1999. The committee may be interested to learn that in the course of their study, Kinman and Blackwell sought submissions from over 120 groups, including the Competition Authority, Lidl, the German discounter, B&Q and the Irish Planning Institute. They also carried out a detailed review of the experience in other countries such as the United Kingdom, France, Germany and Denmark. The draft guidelines were published by the Department for public consultation.

The second stage of the process involved a working group drawn from the Departments of the Environment and Local Government and Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The group referred the guidelines to a further set of experts to assess their impact on competition, innovation and consumer choice. These additional consultants included Goodbody economic consultants, Paddy Lyons, a former chairman of the Competition Authority and Brian Meehan and Associates, planning consultants. The group reviewed the guidelines in the context of competition within the Irish retail sector, the supply of products to consumers at lower prices and the effect on the cost of living, consumer choice and the supply base. In the light of what is being said in the media in regard to these large stores, this is an important point to bear in mind.

The study took into account a wide range of views and perspectives, including that offered by the Competition Authority and vetted the guidelines to assess their impact on competition and consumers. The group reported to the Government in November 2000. Having reviewed the draft guidelines, the Goodbody study approved the guidelines formally issued by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government in January 2001. It was important to outline that process in order that the integrity of the process for the introduction of the guidelines can be seen. It is also vital that the role of the Goodbody study into the impact of the guidelines on competition can be clearly appreciated. Those who claim the guidelines are anti-competitive ignore the fact that they were specifically vetted on those competition grounds and one of the people charged with doing so was a former chairman of the Competition Authority.

At the time they were introduced, the Minister indicated the guidelines should address all the complex planning issues. He said "the guidelines will ensure that the future development of the retail sector in Ireland will accord with the principles of sustainable development while at the same time facilitating a competitive retail sector which can only benefit the consumer." There is a misconception that Ireland is the only country with this type of planning policy. That is not true. The main difference is that the other countries which now have planning policies in the retail sector similar to this have introduced these after devastation has been wrought. We were lucky enough in Ireland to see what might happen and put something in place to prevent it. There are similar retail planning regimes in France, Portugal, Belgium, Spain, Greece, Italy, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Denmark, the United Kingdom and Luxembourg.

Now we come to implementation of the guidelines, which we must remember were only introduced in January 2001. The idea was that the local authorities would implement their own retail strategies, meaning that they could for the first time have a strategic plan for retail development rather than allowing it to be developer-led, as had previously been the experience. Of the 37 councils, so far 19 have implemented the guidelines, five are in the process of implementation and 13 have yet to finalise their local studies. What has been the impact of the guidelines to date? It is too early to tell because only about half of the local authorities have actually implemented the guidelines. Many of us would have expected a review of the guidelines in 2006, when the usual four to five year development cycle has been completed. The initial indications however are that the guidelines have had an enormously positive impact for all the stakeholders involved, including consumers.

Since 2000 there has been an unprecedented level of retail development in the State. This is because the guidelines have introduced certainty to the planning process where there were formerly inconsistencies - local authorities' concerns about rates yield, for example, plagued by developer-led planning. These inconsistencies have been taken out of the equation. Since the guidelines were first suggested we have witnessed the rapid growth of the German discount stores Aldi and Lidl - 40 stores have opened in the past three years. Tesco has continued to expand up and down the country, as have Dunnes and Superquinn, and in our own independent sector, local retailers have continued to invest in new outlets and develop new shops in many city and town centres throughout the State. We have also witnessed the rapid roll-out of Internet shopping in many parts of the State, certainly in the grocery sector.

There is more choice in the market for consumers and greater competition in the sector. Food inflation is low, about half the rate of general inflation at just 2.2%, and there is a range of offerings and prices for all consumers. It is important to note that the level and scale of development has been balanced and sustainable - we have not just seen development in the areas close to Dublin but in many of the smaller cities and large towns. It is now the norm to bring the shops to the people rather than forcing shoppers to drive out of town if they have a car. That is a positive development because it means that everybody has access to shops whether they are mobile.

One of the reasons I am here is that there have been suggestions that certain large-scale operators wish the Government to amend those retail planning guidelines. They claim the guidelines are anti-competitive and a barrier to entry. IKEA, the Swedish furniture retailer, has stated it wants to establish a store of about 30,000 sq. m., which our planning rules do not allow. It is threatening to locate its store in Northern Ireland unless the rules are changed. Personally, I do not see how any commercial enterprise should be allowed to put a gun to the head of a sovereign Government and tell it how it should make its planning rules. It is important to note that IKEA has developed smaller formats in some countries such as Finland, Sweden and Australia because those countries had good planning policy and laws and did not want huge stores. IKEA has been able to adapt its retailing format to suit this. Its claims that it can only locate here with one huge store must be handled with extreme caution.

Many of the large format operators did make submissions to both sets of studies which formed an integral part of the preparation of the retail planning guidelines. The five sets of independent experts which I mentioned, having taken account of their perspectives, concluded in each case that proper planning and development militated against sanctioning such large stores. The large operators have never been satisfied with that finding.

It is often contended that larger stores mean more efficiencies and therefore lower prices for consumers. Again, that was one of the core issues addressed by Goodbody in its study for Government. The conclusion was that at areas larger than 2,000 sq. m., there can be no further economies of scale that affect costs and prices. If a store is larger than that the operators will benefit because the profits are larger, but that does not translate into lower prices for consumers. The report concerned is not old and its conclusions are still true today. I looked at it the other day to see the economic predictions of Goodbody at the time and in terms of growth rates it was quite precise. While large stores allow retailers to gain increased market share quickly and minimise the inconvenience and expense involved in this, they can quickly lead to the development of local monopolies in key areas.

All the studies in an Irish context, in addition to international experience, confirm that it is not possible to accommodate the ambitions of large store operators and at the same time maintain a healthy, vibrant and dynamic retail and town centre hierarchy. Experience since the introduction of the retail planning guidelines has shown that large-format operators such as Tesco and B&Q will adapt their trading formats to suit the planning regime that applies. They might not like to be forced to do so and it may well affect their profits per square metre, but they can still trade and offer competition, selection and choice for consumers. They should not be permitted to nudge the State into changing the retail planning guidelines ahead of time.

RGDATA believes the retail planning guidelines have had a largely positive impact. They were expertly and independently prepared and have played a crucial role in ensuring that we do not make the same planning mistakes that continue to blight other EU states, particularly our nearest neighbour. They have facilitated rapid retail development, as in the cases of the discount stores Aldi and Lidl, which have opened 40 stores in the past three years. This example shows that the guidelines have not acted as a barrier to entry. RGDATA also believes any review of the guidelines at this stage is premature, on the basis that only half of the local authorities have actually implemented them, and that we should be slow to amend this regime purely to cater for the operational preferences of certain large retail players.

Ms Forde has been very busy today; she had her first appointment in Montrose this morning. We will proceed to questions.

I thank the representatives for coming this afternoon and presenting a very convincing case. Having gone through the report in detail, I support the conclusions we heard. I have seen what has happened in the United Kingdom and the denuding of its villages and towns. As pointed out, it can be difficult to obtain everyday items in some villages because the large superstores have sucked the life and soul out of them. Even as we speak, stores in our own suburbs and villages are finding it difficult to survive. Close to my own area in Cork, one of the main stores recently closed because it could not compete with Dunnes, Tesco and so on. The guidelines that have been in place for a number of years now were the result of exhaustive research. I will have a question next Tuesday for the Minister about the guidelines and a statutory instrument of 1998. We discussed the issue briefly when the Minister was here recently to deal with the Estimates.

There is one issue that puzzles me however and it goes against anecdotal evidence I have heard as well as the evidence of my own eyes. Ms Forde said that food inflation in Ireland was low and that there was a range of offerings and prices for all consumers. My own impression is that over the past three or four years, food prices have gone through the roof. In some cases, they have exceeded the rate of inflation. What evidence does RGDATA have, based on that assessment?

I join Deputy Allen in welcoming the delegation from RGDATA and thanking Ms Forde for her submission. Like Deputy Allen, I broadly agree with the submission and support the retail planning guidelines and the cap placed on retail outlets. I recall discussions of those guidelines in the committee some years ago. Like Deputy Allen, I have tabled questions on this subject to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government for next week because there is a need for some clarity on Government thinking on this issue. Some confusing signals have been coming from Government as to whether the Groceries Order and the retail planning guidelines would be up for grabs again, either as a way of addressing inflation or facilitating particular types of development.

The particular issue I want to deal with is IKEA, which is on the agenda currently, and I will put the question in this way. Is it valid to argue that the same floor space cap should be applied to IKEA, which largely sells furniture and that type of product, as applies to a grocery outlet or is there a case for some flexibility for that type of retailing? I am aware RGDATA has made the point that IKEA has adapted its size, and mention was made of New Zealand and some other countries, but can the delegation tell us the size of outlets or whether it is possible for that to be accommodated within the 3,000 sq. m. cap currently in place because I am not sure that is the case?

IKEA has stated if it does not manage to locate in the Republic, it will locate in Northern Ireland. Regardless of whether one views that as a threat, is that not a reality that has to be addressed? People will not travel to Northern Ireland to do their grocery shopping but they will travel that distance to shop for the type of product IKEA sells, particularly if the shopping trips are infrequent. Is there not a case for the planning regulations that apply to retailing being made on an all-Ireland basis? Irrespective of whether the facility is located in Monaghan or Armagh, there will be a sucking away of the business from retailers on both sides of the Border. We should examine this area on an all-Ireland basis. People may take the ferry across to England to do some shopping, but there is a possibility of two separate jurisdictions here being exploited by retailers playing off each other. That is an area the two Governments should examine with a view to producing planning regulations which would apply on an all-Ireland basis.

Ms Forde

I will respond first to Deputy Allen's question on food prices. As the Chairman said, my first appointment this morning was in RTE. The Deputy is right in that there is a perception that food prices have gone through the roof but the figures from the Central Statistics Office, which carries out a statistical exercise every month on the basis of 170 products in 150 outlets, based on what consumers spend their money, show that while general inflation is now at a rate of 4.3%, food inflation is at 2.2%. This has been a consistent trend since our general inflation rate went through the roof. This is based on the CSO figures. It is important also to remember that the Government has said it wants to get inflation down to 2%. That is its target and the rate at which food prices are currently. People are conscious that there are spiralling prices in some sectors but these have also occurred in the area of doctors' and dentists' fees, hairdressing, restaurants, pubs and other health charges. These are the areas where there has been an increase in inflation, not in food.

I will address some of the questions raised by Deputy Gilmore. With regard to IKEA and hardware stores etc., the hardware cap is 6,000 sq. m. whereas the food store cap is 3,000 or 3,500 sq. m. There is a distinction in that regard. In the smaller stores in countries where IKEA has developed, the cap has been lower than ours but it would allow them to develop similar stores here. They have been of that order, less than 6,000 sq. m.

I take the Deputy's point about Northern Ireland where for some time our counterparts have been trying to get in place legislation very similar to our retail planning guidelines but they have been hampered a great deal by the infrequent sessions of the Assembly. There would be enormous benefit in having an all-Ireland policy in this area but as to whether this is achievable, the people in this room would be more expert than I am. The Deputy is right. Business will get sucked from either side of the Border.

We cannot be held to ransom by any commercial organisation which says it can only develop a store of a particular size, and the country must adapt to that. I understand the Minister's point of view in terms of a company saying it will locate north of the Border if he does not agree to its request. If some kind of a joint policy could be implemented in that regard, RGDATA would be very supportive of it.

I welcome the delegation from RGDATA and thank it for this submission. There is no doubt in my mind that the retail planning guidelines put in place in January 2001 by the Government are very effective and have played a key role in keeping many of these hyper-markets and superstores out of this country. I do not like the threat that if we do not change our planning guidelines - something to which I would be opposed as I would make them stricter - they will move to Northern Ireland. I do not care if they move to Japan or New Zealand. The further away they go, the better. I want us to keep the current set-up because we are happy with it. I would not welcome the people concerned here and would not accommodate them in any way in regard to planning at local authority or departmental level. I would like to hear how we can strengthen our planning guidelines and ensure they will not get in through the back door or by some other means. We need to keep full and firm control over the planning guidelines.

I welcome the delegation and commend its members on the report, a solid one which I firmly support. The nub of the matter is to get clarity on the Government position and find out where the rumours and speculation that raised this hare in the first instance originate. The 1998 regulation capping the size of retail grocery outlets at 3,000 sq. m. should be maintained. I support the delegation in that regard.

I represent the Louth constituency where we have experienced this type of blackmail and threats, particularly regarding factory retail outlets. We were told that if permission was not given for them somewhere in our constituency adjacent to the main motorway, they would be built across the Border, near Newry or Banbridge. For a period of time, some councillors almost fell for it but luckily they did not succumb. People kept their eye on the ball, not just in terms of the disciplined planning needed but also the broader consequences for employment, the supply of products to people at hours outside the usual 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. and the other services to which people are accustomed.

I support the current regulations and oppose any change to them. I hope the Government will clarify this issue sooner rather than later.

I welcome the representatives of RGDATA. In the last Dáil we pursued similar policy lines to it by supporting local economic development, of which support for local retailers is part. I am attending this meeting in substitution for Deputy Cuffe. Although I am glad to be here, I regret the circumstances that give rise to my attendance.

We are glad to have the Deputy.

I represent Dublin North, a constituency which has a number of food producers as well as retailers. They provide most of this country's vegetables. I will speak with them in mind, as well as the retail sector.

With regard to the below cost selling campaign waged by a multiple in the United Kingdom, which is asking Irish farmers to make milk available below cost to try to undercut UK farmers, what is the delegation's opinion of the ICMSA's strong response that it would not be party to a campaign that was essentially trying to put other people out of business? I am anxious to find out how much solidarity there is in that regard across the retail sector in this country. The Groceries Order is generally discussed as if there was no below cost selling in this country. Is it acknowledged that many food producers——

I am reluctant to interrupt the Deputy but we are discussing the retail planning guidelines to which the Groceries Order is not relevant.

I am sorry. I will finish my point because it is relevant to the retail sector. Does the delegation believe below cost selling is taking place within the existing guidelines, given that many producers cannot get a return on the cost of producing food, particularly vegetables? Farmers in my constituency have considerable back trouble as a result of the number of hours and the weather in which they are working to produce vegetables but they are only getting €1 for a large bag of spinach. They would prefer to sell their land for housing, which is understandable. It is the only way they can see a return from the land. The tragedy is that this will have an impact on everybody, from a planning perspective as much as from a food production perspective. Does the retail sector recognise that the special offers used to attract customers are killing the goose that lays the golden egg? This should be addressed.

Ms Forde

I support Deputy Sargent's comments about below cost selling. We are extremely supportive of farmers as is recognised by the farming community. It is telling that in the case of fruit and vegetables, the ban on below cost selling does not apply at retail level. However, when one looks at what is happening one can see that the big retailers are taking a huge margin on those products. Take potatoes as an example. A ten kilogramme bag of Kerrs Pink is being sold in Tesco for €6.99. In Jim's shop in Mullingar, the same bag of potatoes is being sold for €3.99. That gives an indication of what is happening.

People who believe below cost selling will lead to those types of prices as a constant for consumers might as well believe in the tooth fairy. It is not economical for anybody. The big retailers simply use these prices as a cynical marketing tool to get people into their shops and get rid of the competition. Once the competition is gone, they increase the prices again. It is the producer who will suffer.

Deputy Sargent mentioned the UK farmer. What is happening in the United Kingdom is important. The United Kingdom is outside the euro and still has its own currency. Effectively, this has led to UK farmers seeing their farm incomes decrease by approximately 30% but that has not been reflected in any shape or form by UK retailers in their prices. I support the Deputy's comments in that regard.

With regard to liquid milk production, RGDATA's members have always been strong in their policy of not engaging in below cost selling or predatory pricing on milk. We always emphasise, even with the Competition Authority, that our members are disadvantaged in terms of milk prices. When the co-ops look for a price increase on milk, it is our members rather than the big operators who tend to pay for it. We and the farmers are the ones who tend to lose out but, ultimately, the consumer loses as well.

I welcome the deputation. The vast majority of people to whom I have spoken agree with the retention of the planning guidelines for retail development. However, outside the political arena and those directly involved in the sector, there is an element of society that would view the influx of these large superstores with optimism. They are led to believe the result will be cheaper prices. Members of RGDATA and those who support the retention of the planning guidelines should be aware of the fact that many people do not look at this issue from the perspective of ensuring there are as many independent retail operators as possible and that there is competition within the retail sector. That is a view. Lidl and other such operators have large resources available to them to push their agenda forward.

With regard to the issue of rural development and the spatial strategy, the most obvious way to counter any argument is to point out that if these superstores are opened, there will, in effect, be less competition, fewer shops and fewer services for the public. However, that is not coming across in the arguments and debates and it is important that it should. I would be most concerned if there was a dilution of the planning guidelines.

The farming organisations should also be taken on board because they must be aware that while there may be competition in the short-term, independent retailers might not be able to survive in the long-term, which will lead to the creation of monopolies in the retail sector. I support the guidelines and, to assist in the argument for their retention, an emphasis should be placed on rural development and the national spatial strategy. As a result of current infrastructural developments, access to Dublin will become easier with the result that people from Mullingar, Athlone and other towns would travel long distances to shop on a bimonthly basis if these superstores were in place. It is clear that lobbying is under way in an attempt to allow for these superstores. In view of this, RGDATA and other interested parties, including the farming organisations, independent retailers, chambers of commerce and others who have a vested interest in ensuring the continuation of a vibrant independent retail sector must act together in a cohesive manner.

I support the stance taken by RGDATA. The Government's guidelines have been approved and adopted by local authorities under the control of the Government parties. The regional planning guidelines create an avenue where this can be taken on board. In view of this, it is important that sustainable development at regional level provide an answer to the challenge posed by the superstores. I have no doubt that RGDATA will have the support of the Government parties. The local authorities which have adopted the plans are those controlled by Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats.

I welcome the delegation from RGDATA and support its proposals regarding retail planning guidelines. Fine Gael has control of my local authority and undertaken a number of retail and housing strategies in the recently adopted county development plan. Section 5 of the Planning and Development Act requires local authorities to prepare such strategies. There is also a zoning requirement, which will enable local authorities to keep a double check on developments.

Developments in this area are happening through the back door following the introduction of non-perishable goods. Many warehouse and storage facilities are being acquired for products purchased on the Internet from other European countries. This is encouraging people to change their mindset on the development of superstores. I do not support their development because I believe in the concept of smaller communities with centres of purchasing power. Regrettably, some of the infrastructure and services in these areas such as post offices, schools and small rural Garda stations are in decline, but I hope these developments will be reversed.

I support the RGDATA presentation which was most interesting and wish the organisation well. It has the support of the Fine Gael Party.

Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael are unanimous on the need to retain the retail planning guidelines, while IBEC, the Consumers Association of Ireland, farming organisations and RGDATA are also in favour of them. Given this, who is creating the major obstacle?

I am a visitor to this committee and thank the Chairman for affording me the opportunity to speak. I also join in welcoming the delegation from RGDATA. I must declare an interest in that I am its nominee. I am in total agreement with what has been said and I am pleased that my senior party colleagues have spoken. Deputies Gilmore, Sargent and Morgan have also expressed similar views.

The committee is totally united on this issue. I have strongly supported these policies in this and the last Oireachtas. RGDATA is aware of my views. I compliment the delegation on what was a fine presentation.

Deputy Gilmore referred to the possibility of proceeding on an all-Ireland basis. If agreement could be secured on that basis, it would be wonderful. If and when the Northern Ireland Assembly returns, the Chairman of this committee should meet his counterpart in the Assembly. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business should do likewise and I will take the matter up at that forum.

I support the retail planning guidelines. I made my own representations to the then Minister, Deputy Dempsey, independent of RGDATA and others and was pleased with the Government's measures. I do not favour any change in the guidelines. While I do not support Aldi and Lidl, they have worked well within the guidelines and secured almost 5% of the market. More power to them, although what happens beyond the farm gate should be investigated. However, regrettably, apart from one brand of butter, they do not appear to stock any Irish products. That is not the fault of anybody in this country.

I call on Ms Forde. She must be delighted to learn she have so many supporters here.

Ms Forde

It is very heartening. Identifying those who are for and against the retail planning guidelines and the Groceries Order tells its own story. Farmers, independent retailers, manufacturers and the consumer are in favour. The big international operators want to develop these huge stores. They are putting pressure on the Minister, while the Competition Authority maintains it does not make good economic sense, at least in theory. Our response is that experience shows that while it may not work in theory, it works in practice. It has always been the case in these debates that all those involved in the practicalities - retailers, consumers, farmers, etc. - believe in this as a way forward and it is the people who look at it merely from an ideological point of view rather than anything else who have a problem with it.

Are there any further questions?

The Government is not short of ideology of that kind.

Has the director general any suspicion that the Government speaks out of both sides of its mouth on this issue?

Ms Forde

I do not know if the director general should comment on that. As the Chairman reminded us, I do not have privilege. Therefore, I will abstain from answering.

I am not sure I should even allow that sort of question.

They will never sue her.

Phone a friend.

The Competition Authority states the guidelines are a hindrance to competition, but does it furnish any evidence? I find that the authority is often hung on an ideological hook without having any substantive reasons to back up its views. Has Ms Forde approached it to ascertain the reason this would be a hindrance to competition? Is there evidence to show this would be the case? If not, perhaps we should invite the director of the Competition Authority to come before the committee?

Surely we should ask the Competition Authority to come to explain its position on this matter.

On the changing pattern of retail activity, mention was made of Internet shopping and Argos catalogue-type shopping. What is Ms Forde's assessment of how that will drive the agenda or the pattern of retail activity? It strikes me that a sizeable segment of the market is not going anywhere near stores anymore, but is simply shopping on the Internet or from catalogues.

Ms Forde

Certainly in my experience the Competition Authority does not provide any evidence. It is clear to me that we have never had as many operators in the grocery trade, despite the fact that the authority would say both the retail planning guidelines and the Groceries Order are barriers to entry. My response to that is that if they are such barriers to entry, how come Aldi and Lidl have rolled out 40 stores in the past three years and how come the big UK multiple, Tesco, is in the marketplace? There are also the Irish multiples, Dunnes Stores and Superquinn, and 6,000 independent operators. Therefore, there is no shortage of newcomers in the market, but the authority has never been able to provide the evidence to which we referred. It would be interesting for the committee to ask it to provide it.

There is a problem where warehouse facilities are being rented for goods purchased on the Internet. This has been the case for the past five, six or seven years. Will we be in an unstoppable situation in four or five years' time? This is happening on a large scale. Is this the root of a problem which will develop two or three years from now?

Ms Forde

That ties in with Deputy Gilmore's question about Internet shopping which in Ireland is really only in its infancy. It will only grow, to answer the Deputy's question.

I take the Senator's point about warehouses. It is one of the issues with which we have been dealing with the local authorities in terms of their retail strategies. I believe this is the way to deal with this matter because the retail planning guidelines do cater for it. The Senator is quite right. We do not want this type of hyper-store - for want of a better word - to come in through the back door. However, the way to address it is through the local authorities and their retail strategies.

On behalf of the joint committee, I thank Ms Forde and Mr. Marshall from RGDATA for meeting us, making a presentation and the comprehensive way they dealt with the questions raised by members.

Ms Forde

Thank you.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.50 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 25 June 2003.
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