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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT díospóireacht -
Thursday, 1 Dec 2005

EU Environment Council: Ministerial Presentation.

I propose that we leave discussion of correspondence until later in the meeting.

I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, and his officials. These discussions in advance of the EU Environment Council meetings are now an integral part of the joint committee's annual work programme. The committee appreciates the time taken by the Minister and his officials to attend. I stated at previous meetings that the joint committee sees this as an important part of the EU scrutiny process introduced by the Government to enhance the role of the Oireachtas in the EU legislative process.

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to come before the committee. The meeting this month has an interesting agenda. There are six major items, the first of which will be LIFE+. There are also issues regarding aviation, climate change, international chemicals management, air pollution and two separate issues relating to GMOs.

LIFE+ is a new financial instrument for the environment which we have previously discussed. It has arisen at Council meetings more than once and was discussed by the joint committee with officials from my Department some weeks ago. The officials in question briefed me on that meeting. As was stated at the meeting to which I refer, there is still much to be done on the details of LIFE+ but much good work has been done in Brussels. We commend the UK Presidency because it is making a big effort to make progress on the matter.

The proposal has changed somewhat since its launch by the Commission in September 2004. It includes a separate new component on nature and biodiversity. It also includes provision for contributions to the development and demonstration of innovative policies approaches, technologies, methods and instruments. The Presidency is hoping to achieve partial political agreement on LIFE+. Full agreement will not be possible because the financial perspectives for 2013 have not yet been agreed by heads of state. The achievement of partial political agreement on LIFE+ this month will mean that when the funding issue is solved, we can proceed with implementation of the new arrangements.

Although we will adopt draft conclusions on reducing the climate change impact with regard to aviation, we have not heard from the Irish aviation sector on the matter. This sector is not normally noted for its reticence and we will probably hear from it after today's meeting. Ireland accepts, in principle, the inclusion of aviation in the emissions trading schemes but there is still much work to be done in the area of a proposal to include aviation in the scheme.

It should be noted that we have some concerns. These relate to the practical aspects of bringing aviation into an emissions trading scheme. We are also concerned that this should address the potential impact on peripheral regions such as Ireland, which are particularly reliant on air transport as a key mode of travel. Ireland is also concerned that the inclusion of aviation in the emissions trading sector should not negatively affect other sectors in the scheme by driving up the price of allowances. It is clear that if there is a finite number of allowances, price will be increased when there are more demands in the system. Ireland considers that these matters should primarily be taken into account in the functioning of the Commission working group. They should not be left to be dealt with at a later stage in the legislative process when change is more difficult. I will make these points at the Council meeting.

Specifically detailed issues such as this should be dealt with by the Commission before final proposals come to the political stage. It is not good practice to assume that matters will be resolved and that is not an approach we adopt in legislative programmes in this country. It would be a careless approach and one which has little to commend it in the European arena.

The Council will adopt conclusions on a strategic approach to international chemicals management. This is a global approach to the sound management of chemicals. We are more familiar with the EU approaches set out in REACH. The strategy approaches being adopted under REACH are in line with the aims and approaches of this global strategy, which is being developed under the auspices of the United Nations environment programme. The 2002 World Summit on Sustainable Development sought to ensure that by 2020 chemicals will be used and produced in ways that lead to the minimisation of significant adverse effects on human health and the environment. The development of the strategic approach was recognised as a major contribution to reaching this goal. The conclusions to be adopted are a preparation for the EU position for the concluding meeting in the development of this strategic approach.

This meeting will be held in Dubai next February. The strategic approach should assist in the implementation of existing international agreements relating to hazardous chemicals, including hazardous waste and the import and export of such substances. This is an issue of which we should be mindful. EU strategies are being developed or are in place in many of the areas covered by the strategic approach. Examples of these are the 2004 persistent organic pollutants regulations and the EU mercury strategy. No real discussion is expected on this agenda item.

There will be a debate on the thematic strategy on air pollution published by the Commission in September. This is the first of seven thematic strategies promised under the EU sixth environment action programme. Different themes will be the subject of different discussions. The strategy sets out a long-term perspective on cleaner air in Europe. We previously discussed the transboundary nature of many environmental problems and air quality is a particularly important example. Action by individual governments can produce positive benefits but this must be complemented by joint actions by the EU and others at international level. The proposal is such an action at EU level. It is important to recognise that although there is much to be done, Ireland's air quality, particularly in comparison with that in other European states, is generally good.

We will also consider the Commission's proposal for a new air quality directive. With a view to making better regulations, it is the Commission's intention to streamline current air quality legislation. This is intended to lighten the administrative burden and enable member states to overcome difficulties experienced in complying with current rules. The proposed directive would bring together five legal instruments and the work is much the same as that done when legislation is consolidated and when regulations are made simpler and more easily accessible. An extensive consultation process was undertaken in preparation for this strategy. An impact assessment was also conducted.

We welcome the implication of the tools of better regulation to this complex but important area of environmental legislation. The committee will recall that better regulation was part of the Irish Presidency programme which has been carried on by subsequent Presidencies. Any work that aims to achieve coherence in the application or implementation of legislation is to be commended. The cost-benefit analysis of the strategy estimates that it would deliver at least €42 billion per annum in health benefits. There would be significant benefits to ecosystems in terms of reduced risks. We should also have the benefit of a reduction in damage caused by acidification, nutrification and ozone. The achievement of the targets in the strategy is estimated to cost €7.1 billion per annum. Therefore the cost-benefit is positive. Some of the costs are already in train. For example, through the reform of the Common Agricultural Policy and other measures we in Ireland expect it to exceed our targets for reducing ammonia.

Item 6 relates to a Commission proposal to improve a hybrid maize product for import into the Community for processing to produce products such as adhesives, synthetic rubber, porcelain coatings on spark plugs and ethyl alcohol. The proposed approval does not cover use of the product for animal feed, food or cultivation. Notwithstanding the limited nature of the proposal and the fact that the Environmental Protection Agency is the Irish competent authority for the directive and has no objection to its approval, I continue to bear in mind the doubts of other member states and members of this committee and they will abstain on the proposition. I do not anticipate a discussion on the matter at Council. The position of member states was checked at COREPER on 23 November. Tomorrow the Presidency is likely simply to ask if any member state has changed its position in the meantime. The clear indications are that there is no possibility of a qualified majority either in favour or against the product. At COREPER 104 votes were indicated in favour and 108 against; 75 votes, including Ireland, were counted as abstentions.

We have a second genetically modified organisms item on the agenda. Members may recall at our meeting before the last Environment Council in October that I referred to a point which was raised under "any other business" by Denmark about perspectives on the future use of GMOs. The current item has emerged from the discussion in the last Council. Essentially Denmark signalled a wish to explore what possibilities other states saw for highlighting the benefits that GMOs might offer to the Third World in terms of alleviating poverty and hunger. This is an interesting, if slight, shift in the traditional Danish position. At the same time Luxembourg indicated a desire to examine the decision-making process as it applies to GMOs bearing in mind the Commission's powers to approve products where no qualified majority vote emerged from the Council.

The UK Presidency has provided an opportunity tomorrow for member states to comment on GMO issues by posing the question of which aspects of policy on GMO crops and food merit further in-depth analysis and political discussion, such as potential risks and benefits of GMO technology, including the regulatory regime and the decision-making process for individual GMOs and the need for further research. If members think about it, it is a fairly loaded question.

As for the original Danish proposal which attempts to accentuate the positive in GM technology, I do not think the Community is ready for such a step. Consensus is unlikely to be reached on this matter. I am unconvinced by the Danish view, although I accept it is well intentioned, because promoting the benefits of GM should surely be a matter for the biotechnology industry and not the Community.

More importantly, the possibility of the Community highlighting a possible role for GMOs in the area of Third World poverty and hunger is likely to be fraught with danger. Members will obviously be aware there is a siren call in this proposition, namely, that something which we object to fundamentally in our world is somehow applicable to the Third World. If members think of that, they will see the inherent dangers in that approach. The position is incongruous when viewed in light of different opinions on the subject within the Community. The European Union would be open to accusations of working for the benefit of the biotechnology industry if it were to move in that direction. The Community would be open to criticism for facilitating interference in the biodiversity of countries that have few resources to deal with either the regulatory aspects of GMOs or the possible implications of such interference.

As for Luxembourg's wish to discuss the decision-making process, I can understand that some parties share unease about the Commission approval of proposals that do not have a qualified majority vote. It remains early days, however, and the scrutiny arrangements have not yet fully dealt with all types of notifications. For example, no proposal for cultivation has yet come before the regulatory commission under directive 2001/18/EC, let alone before the Council. It must be remembered that the GMO decision-making procedure simply mirrors processes that apply across many policy areas. Accordingly, any proposals for change would deserve careful consideration by all interested parties and whether we would change in this area and have different arrangements in every other decision area is a matter that requires much analysis.

In any event, it must be borne in mind that the Commission will undertake a review of these arrangements and will report in early 2006. On this basis, Ireland is prepared to accept that discussion on this aspect could be deferred until the Commission's review has been contemplated. It would be more logical if we did not have a discussion until we had the basis of the Commission's review. After all, the Commission has certain key roles in the legislative process under European law and it would appear appropriate if the Commission were to clarify its proposal in bringing it to the Council. Notwithstanding that, it is simply a request for a discussion. Obviously I would be glad to hear the views of the committee on this matter. I suspect the joint committee would share my views on it.

On tomorrow's agenda six items are listed under "any other business". We will have a report from the Commission on the EU biodiversity strategy. The strategy was adopted in 1998 to meet obligations under the UN convention on biological diversity. Ireland wishes to see an end to the review process and the early emergence of the promised communication from the Commission drawing from the Malahide analysis. This is the outcome of a major Irish Presidency conference last year.

We will also have information from the Presidency on the nanotechnology action plan. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, in conjunction with Forfás, is undertaking an assessment of national nanotechnology investment options for the country. Forfás has established a project team for the nano-Ireland study and work will include input from all the relevant stakeholders. From my Department's perspective, nanotechnology has huge potential for environmental protection in terms of reducing energy use, reducing emissions and reducing waste in process industries.

We will have information from the Presidency on green public procurement on which a conference on this theme was held in London last month. The UK Minister, Margaret Beckett, wishes to inform the Council about that conference.

At the request of the Swedish delegation we will have information from an informal ministerial meeting last month on the future of the Baltic. This arises from a consideration by ministers in that region of the EU's thematic strategy for the protection and conservation of the marine environment. Members will be aware there is a very specific marine environment in the Baltic region. The nature of the Baltic Sea requires special consideration.

The importation of wild birds into the EU is on the agenda at the request of the Belgian delegation. It is concerned that the current regulations are not adequate. Ireland considers that the CITES regulations provide an effective and sufficient instrument for addressing the genuine conservation issues in the trade in wild birds. Accordingly Ireland does not support the Belgian proposal. Many of us will have received an interesting e-mail from the Irish Parrot Association this morning. I have not had the opportunity to consider it.

So we do not care if the parrot——

I take it that is not the Minister's call.

It did not say whether it was a target parrot that met its demise or one that was still alive and kicking. Whoever sent the message was obviously not dormant because he or she was sending out e-mails this morning.

The final item under "any other business" is at the request of the Netherlands delegation. We expect an update on work being done by the Netherlands. The UK and Austria are following on from the key theme of the Netherlands Presidency which was eco-innovation. Ireland supports the clean, clever and competitive dialogue which is the title that was given. We believe the environment technologies action plan and proper implementation of the competitive and innovative framework programme will help the EU to become the world's most eco-efficient economy. I have said time and again this is an important area for Europe. If we are trying to lead the world debate on environmental protection and issues relating to it, we will certainly have an edge. I have no doubt that European enterprise will ultimately have an edge as a result of that. One can observe that if one reflects on the Danish experience when the Danes moved to use wind technologies. The aim is to work within the wider context of the Lisbon Agenda, in which the specific benefits to be gained and the positive side of this equation are featured.

This is an outline of the agenda for tomorrow. I thank the committee for its invitation and I look forward to hearing its members' views.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. We have had a busy week and many of the key issues were debated in the Dáil and other fora and were the subject of questions to the Minister. I will comment briefly on the forthcoming Council meeting and I wish the Minister well in his representation of the issues he will raise.

There are a number of points about which I am concerned. I will deal with the issue raised by the Irish Parrot Association first. If the Belgian delegation is indicating it is not satisfied with the regulations governing the importation of wild birds, I presume one of its concerns relates to the avian 'flu threat. I note that the Minister is happy enough with the current position. Does he not consider that the tighter the restrictions in place, the less likely there will be an outbreak of avian 'flu here and that, therefore, he ought to change his position on this issue in the interests of public health, regardless of any other views? The public health consideration ought to be the priority for the Minister when this matter is raised. I ask that he change his position on this matter or explain it further. The public health consideration is the key issue.

On the question of air quality and the Minister supporting fully whatever the new directive will bring, particularly in terms of cleaner air, in a reply to a parliamentary question this week, the Minister indicated that he had no intention at this stage of extending the ban on bituminous coal to new urban areas. There has been a significant improvement in the air quality in areas where bituminous coal has been banned and the health of the population has benefited greatly from it. I am at a loss to understand the reason the Minister will not extend that ban to further areas.

On the climate change issue, which is the most important one as it is of concern to us now and into the future, I am aware that the aviation sector has been included in emissions trading. I do not wish to delay consideration of this matter for the Minister, but the committee needs to meet the key players in industry. One of those players has written expressing a desire to meet with us. I refer to Irish Cement Limited, and other major companies involved at this critical stage of climate change. We, together with the Minister and his officials, need to meet them to inform our opinions on this issue. There is no more important issue facing the country than climate change. The issue of emissions trading on the Minister's desk for decision. I would welcome increased public awareness and debate on these issues, not only at the European Council but at this committee.

On the avian flu issue, matters have moved forward. There is a ban which deals with the public health issue. There is a temporary ban on the importation of wild birds into the EU because of the threat of avian flu. CITES is the international worldwide convention that deals with this issue. While that convention relates to the conservation side, that element and the public health issue are interrelated.

With regard to the aviation sector and Deputy O'Dowd's final point — I will return to his point on extending the ban on bituminous coal — it would be interesting for the committee to hear the views of some of the Irish major emitters. There are 105 companies in our trading sector. In the early part of the new year the final steps for these arrangements will be announced. Many of those companies have made the point that the requirements they will have to meet are onerous. They are not cost free. The Deputy mentioned the cement industry and it will have to meet onerous requirements because of the energy inputs and the nature of the industry. It has challenging targets. I touched on that point in my speech in the Dáil the night before last. This is an area where we need to be cautious. I would be interested in the committee having hearings with representatives not only of the cement industry but key energy industries such as Aughinish Alumina. If one notes the 105 companies listed, one will note there are major challenges facing the ESB and also companies such as dairy co-operatives, which will have a big cost to bear. Therefore, we need to careful in this regard. While we should all be ambitious in issues relating to this matter, we should listen to the views of the industries.

There are 105 companies involved and all the major emitters are involved in the ongoing discussions with the consultants who will put forward proposed arrangements in the new year. We have a requirement in terms of €8 million credits to meet our targets. The State indicated that, if necessary, we will purchase up to €3.7 million. Of the balance, roughly half of the overall €8 million requirement will fall on industry. We must be careful in our ambition in that regard and in how we apportion costs. We do not want to have an apportionment that would endanger industry, as some industries will have to meet very heavy costs.

On the point of extending the ban on bituminous coal, negotiations are continuing with the solid fuel trade. The general point Deputy O'Dowd made is good, namely, that urban patterns are changing and whereas previously there was opposition to the ban, there is interest among some communities in its extension. Such a measure would not be cost-free. There are ongoing negotiations with the fuel trade generally with regard to a new agreement. The last arrangements were based on a partnership approach, which was welcome because the State stepped in and picked up some of the costs. Any extension to the ban would be guided by the known air quality. The reality of the position, notwithstanding some interpretations during the week of what was stated in the EEA report, some of which were grotesquely inaccurate — I am sure these were all accidental and not politically motivated — Ireland still has very high air quality. I am conscious that particularly where there are changing population patterns, there is probably more awareness of the positive side of the ban than there was previously.

The Minister referred to the consultants' report in regard to what will happen to the industries in terms of emissions trading and so on. As I understand it, that report will not be transparent in terms of what they are actually saying, so to speak. In other words, the report will not be published before the Minister makes his decision. I accept all the points he made about sensitivity in regard to employment, the different types of industry and so on and the aspiration and commitment for change but I understand the report, and the Minister can correct me if I am wrong, will not be published before he makes his decision. While the companies will have an input into it, they will not know the recommendations of it in time. They will not have the capacity or ability to challenge conclusions reached in the report.

The Deputy is aware that the draft of the consultants' report has been published.

I understand it is being sent back.

It is, but when the consultation process is concluded, the consultants will bring back their review and they will incorporate that. I must then bring it to Government. It would be very unusual to publish a report before it goes to Government. The final allocation and detail will be worked out by the EPA. We are operating a transparent system but it would be unusual——

Members of the public have expressed concerns to me that they would like to see the report before the Minister makes his decision because they might disagree profoundly with some of the findings.

I do not doubt that there will be some comments. The Deputy is correct but they will have seen the consultants report and they will have made their submissions. I will then take the final report to Government. The final report will become the basis on which the EPA will make its allocation. There is no doubt that the public will have sight of it before the EPA makes the final allocation. The EPA will also have a further consultation process.

Yes, but some companies have expressed concern about what they see as a lack of clarity regarding the outcome of the final report before the Minister makes his decision. I will leave it at that.

They will have even greater concerns after the debate in the Dáil during the past two days.

The European Environment Agency's report of two days ago will be an interesting background to the discussions in which the Minister will engage. I am sure he will robustly defend Ireland's record. The suggestion by Deputy Gilmore that we invite representatives of the European Environment Agency to address the committee is useful. It would clarify where we are doing well and where we are doing badly. Clarity is needed in that debate.

On the subject of clarification, will the Minister explain item 2, the approval of the list of A items? I missed the comments made at the start of the meeting.

It is a procedural arrangement. The A items are those which come with agreement to the Council. These have been through the various decision processes and agreement has been worked out at other Councils and they have gone through COREPER. They come back for the formal sign-off.

Can they be accessed on the Internet?

Yes. They cover all types of topics. Under EU legislative arrangements, the final legislative body is the Council. The Deputy has inadvertently given me the opportunity to refer to the EEA report. It is a great pity people did not read even the executive summary of that report. It discusses Ireland meeting international commitments in air emissions and waste management and refers to their being priority issues. It also refers to the positive signals, including recent modest reductions in greenhouse gas emissions and some acidifying gases and long-term major reductions in serious pollution in rivers and urban air. It discusses the increasing awareness of environmental issues and a willingness to act, as shown by the success story that is the plastic bag levy, increased recycling and high compliance with the new smoking ban in bars and restaurants. Clearly, whoever wrote the somewhat sensationalist headlines in the newspapers did not have sight of that summary; it must have fallen off in the text as transmitted.

With regard to greenhouse gas emissions, the report says that the annual emissions are down for the second successive year and we have moved on since then. It also says that Ireland's energy consumption by GDP is low compared with other EEA member states. That struck me as odd because I recall reading in the newspapers that the EEA said it was high. The EEA said it is low, so I must make arrangements for some people to receive copies of the report.

The EEA also commented on renewable energy. It said that the significant increase in the total primary energy requirement in the period hides the large growth of renewable energy, rising by over 71% between 1990 and 2000. It went on to say that, more recently, the rate of growth in electricity generated from renewable resources has increased substantially, particularly from wind. A fair point could be made that it would increase substantially in view of where we started. However, we have to start somewhere. Nevertheless, the report goes on to say that in 2004 the amount of electricity generated by wind increased by 69% over 2002 levels and that the rapid increase in electricity generated by renewables is set to continue in the coming years, with wind being the biggest area of growth. It was not a comment on any of the debates in the Dáil but wind and hot air could be used to generate a great deal. We actually have negatives on emissions and acidifying statistics.

There is an interesting comment about transport which, again, was taken up quite incorrectly. The agency discusses, with regard to transport, the fact that Irish industry operates a just-in-time, JIT, delivery system which requires many transport movements. However, that is because we have companies such as Dell and Intel which operate JIT and lead the world in logistics. For example, the Dell operation in Limerick is phenomenal and it operates on a JIT system. It is something of which some of our European partners might be just a little jealous. The nature of the industry we have requires transport movements. The report makes the point that if there are many such transport movements, there will be an environmental impact. What would people prefer, that we close down those leading world companies or have transport movements? Will members put up their hands if they wish to close them down? I do not wish to close them. That is the reality.

The report goes on to refer to a continuing infrastructure deficit for dealing with municipal waste. I have made that point ad nauseam. I even bore myself pointing out that we have a grotesque deficiency in ways of dealing with municipal waste. Unless we go the route taken by my German colleague a few weeks ago and ban untreated municipal waste being put into landfill, we will live in an island with fetid heaps everywhere. Regardless of whether it is modern or old landfill, it is the worst way to proceed. I agree with the EEA that we must put a proper infrastructure in place. If we wish to attenuate methane, which is produced in vast quantities from landfill, we should be honest and make the decisions. We should reduce and minimise waste.

The report also says that serious pollution in rivers and streams has been reduced significantly. As members know, the discharges which we put into our waterways from treatment were such that in 1998-99 only 20% met the EU requirements. Now, 90% meet those requirements. The proof of that is the fact that the Lee swim was held this year for the first time in 54 years and also the fact that Dublin now has a blue flag.

Deputy Cuffe is correct. There is something bizarre about the way the EEA produced its report. It started with 250 indicators, which is fine. It was taking the totality of the environment and that is as it should be. Then, for reasons it does not explain, it boiled them down to 37. The so-called scorecard it published contained nine. One does not have to be Albert Einstein to work out that if one picks a scorecard of nine, some of the scores produced will be skewed.

One thing the agency did incorporate into this was the level of organic farming. It is true that within the definition of organic farming, Ireland would be rated relatively low. However, it is untrue and a grotesque distortion to say that Ireland has anything other than one of the best natural farming processes. We still raise a huge proportion of our animals on grassland. I am not a farmer and neither are most members of the committee but the reality is that Irish farming practices would win a test against intensive farming.

Another bizarre matter is the commentary on urbanisation. We can either build up or build out but we cannot go down. The commentary on urbanisation in Ireland, coming from countries that have intense urbanisation, struck me as odd. The final deficiency in the EEA report is that although it was very concerned about 250 indicators, one of the indicators it was not worried about was rust bucket nuclear enterprises dotted throughout the landscape. We do not have to travel too far from our shores to encounter one such rust bucket enterprise which has vomited billions of pollutants into the atmosphere over the years.

Somehow this objective analysis of the environment by the EEA did not take that on board. I find that amazing, as will members since we all subscribe to the view that the nuclear option is the madcap option. The EEA takes a strange view. I will be making this point to Professor McGlade, who chairs the body, that a tad of balance would be great in this respect.

The final point is interesting. The director of the EEA speaking subsequent to the publication of the report said that "compared to countries at similar stages of economic development, Ireland was in the middle of the pack, ahead in some areas, behind elsewhere". By the way, one other point Professor McGlade et al forgot to mention was that in electronic-based recycling we are now significantly to the lead in Europe. I thank members for giving me the opportunity to clarify that.

It is good that we are not dealing with the EEA.

Would that we were.

Maybe we can ask a series of questions to avoid interruptions.

Without imposing on Deputy Cuffe, one of my officials has just whispered in my ear that that was the best answer ever to a question that was not asked.

I commend the Minister on the depth of his initial response to my question.

The Deputy should attend the lunch tomorrow to hear what I will say.

I will take the Minister up on the offer of a hard copy of the report. It bedevilled me to download bits and pieces, including graphs and tables.

The Deputy is right. The way in which the material was presented — and in particular some of those strange graphs across the top — was bizarre and made it difficult to read.

There is a huge density of information in the report, but I would love to get a hard copy of it.

I will arrange for the Deputy to get a full copy of the 250 page report.

And the appendices.

If one wants to get a balanced report, one must look at the whole picture.

I feel that one was at a disadvantage because as the day unfolded a lot more information was coming out from the press conference, as well as the commentary and speeches. It was therefore hard to keep up with the story that was unfolding.

While we appreciate his comments, I ask the Minister not to interrupt the Deputy.

We will leave the argument about indicators for another day. Yes, we are doing well in some areas, but we are doing quite badly in what I would tend to think are some of the more serious ones, such as waste and climate change emissions. As regards climate change emissions, I listened carefully to the Minister's speech in response to our Private Members' Bill the other evening. I noted that the one word he omitted from his script beforehand was "agreement" — the fact that the European Council of Environment Ministers has agreed to 15% to 30% reductions by 2020, and 60% to 80% reductions by 2050. This is really the elephant in the corner concerning the kind of discussions the Minister is having. I am sure that over a coffee break there must be some discussion as to how we can engage with one of the more serious issues of our time. Whatever about the 2012 date, we can have a fine argy-bargy as to whether we will be on or over target, but I suspect we will be quite a bit over target. I would be interested to see where that debate is going in Europe, whether it be in the aviation sector or elsewhere.

I note with interest the Minister's thoughts that we have not heard much from the main players in the industry in Ireland so far. Where are we going on the substantive issue of climate change within the Council? The next issue is GMOs and I note that the Minister said he intends to abstain on this proposal. I am little bit concerned about the inconsistency here. Essentially, the Government is in favour of GMOs and this has emerged strongly as Government policy through published reports. There is a touch of economy with the truth in talking about abstention and having TDs such as Deputy Mulcahy saying how virulently opposed he is to GMOs, when Government policy is to favour GMOs. Abstention is a slightly dishonest response. I would much prefer the Minister to vote against the proposal.

In the debate, the Minister refers to Third World countries, although I prefer the term "developing countries". It must be recognised that developing countries are the most vulnerable in this context. If we look at the record of GMOs in developing countries, we can see that farmers are being held hostage by biotech companies. In India, they are taking away their livelihoods as they are being prosecuted for saving their seeds from year to year. That is what Irish farmers did for generations, yet along come the biotech companies with their patented seeds and take farmers to court for trying to do what comes naturally to them, which is saving seed from one generation to the next. We must examine the negative implications of that. The advantages of GMOs are far outweighed by the problems they create, particularly when large companies can effectively hold small farmers hostage. We have seen that happen not too far from here. I would be interested in whether the Minister can clarify the Irish position on GMOs.

No. 7 on the agenda concerns air pollution. Can the Minister enlighten us as to where he stands concerning the European Court of Justice action against Ireland with regard to the drawing up by local and regional authorities of air quality plans? We still seem to be quite far behind on that matter. It is an important issue. Benzine levels from the transport sector in central Dublin are exceeding guide values. Another aspect goes back to the coal ban, although it is the sale, not the use, of bituminous coal that is banned. Will the Minister examine banning the use of smoky coal and other substances in urban areas? A week ago, we had the classic low-pressure conditions with an absence of wind. In Dublin city and I am sure in other areas around the country, to the best of my knowledge, there was quite an increase in smoke in the air. I am not convinced that the ban is working 100%. Perhaps it should be extended to cover the use, as opposed to the sale, of smoky substances. Will the Minister also refer in his reply to the ECJ issues regarding the fact that we are being lax in the preparation of air quality management plans?

I have one last point, which is a brief one concerning the discussion of the Baltic area. A few years ago, I was in Kaliningrad and it seemed to me to be an incredible example of eastern Europe's appalling record of chemical, nuclear and biological pollution. Is there anything the Minister can do through the European Union to increase the aid going to Russia and Kaliningrad in particular? They are pouring filth into the Baltic, which is an area where the Tasis programme has begun to make an impact. If the European Council can add to that impact, I would welcome it.

I will start with the last point regarding the Baltic area and Kaliningrad. The Deputy is right in saying that is where one finds a real rust bucket nuclear fleet; it is frightening. That is what the EU Baltic states have been focusing on. I suspect that is very much at the core of the issues that will come back to us. I think it would be wise to support any regional move in that regard because there is a great danger there. There are a great deal of old armaments and ships, many of which are nuclear.

It will be interesting if the aviation industry group appears before the committee. It is important that key industries are aware of what is happening in Europe and that they make their views known. It is a bit late in the day to come in when one is on the point of signing up to a directive, so I welcome the fact that the joint committee will be hearing from the Irish aviation industry.

The 15% to 30% figures are the reduction targets. This is probably one of the most misunderstood agreements ever. It is an agreement for a negotiating stance, which is the point I was making in the debate.

That is misusing the word "agreement" because it has not been agreed.

It is an agreement on a negotiating stance. As I said in the debate, however, it would be madness to try to put what is a negotiating stance into law, which becomes justiciable now or next year in Ireland.

Sweden has just done so.

With all due respect, Sweden set a target of 4%, which is below its targets. The Deputy is asking me to accept a law that would require a movement of 55 percentage points from where we are today. I do not disagree with the sentiment that we should try to be ambitious. However, to try to incorporate that ambition into law that is justiciable would be madness and would close many Irish industries. I am glad the Deputy will shortly hear from the cement industry because he will begin to hear what the impact of the requirements will be in practical terms. Whether in Government or in Opposition, we must be conscious of that. Deputy O'Dowd knows the importance of that industry in his area. We all have views on that industry and mine might not be a million miles from Deputy Cuffe's in terms of the need to clean up acts and so on. However, being ambitious and having consensus on what we would like to see is one thing but to put that ambition into law is another, particularly when it is only a negotiating strategy.

The agreement is that in the post-Kyoto period, the strategy for Europe will be to negotiate for 15% to 30% but that would be for all developed countries. It has been made absolutely clear that Europe, which counts for 14% of the world's emissions, has stepped up to the plate and shown that it is willing to take on what are very onerous requirements. When the overall package is negotiated, whether it is 15% or 30%, the Europeans will have to sit down and work out a country by country burden sharing arrangement, which is what was done on Kyoto. That is why we were plus 13. We were 13 percentage points above the 1990 base year level. If we were to go from 13 points above to 30 points below, that would be a 43 percentage point change. In fact, from where we are today, it would be a 55 percentage point change. That would close down the cement industry and the aluminium plant in Aughinish. Without a doubt, we would destroy the dairy co-operatives in this country.

While I agree with the Deputy's sentiment that we should be ambitious, we must also be realistic. To put into Irish law a requirement that we go there would mean that nobody in their right mind with an energy hungry industry would look at Ireland for foreign direct investment. We should consider the impact of a decision by Microsoft or Intel into the future. We must be very careful. We should be ambitious and strongly support the European Union's efforts to bring some logic to the way the developed world deals with Kyoto. We should be very active in trying to persuade the Americans, in particular, the Australians and others that they have moral obligations. We should also encourage China, India and Brazil to step up to the plate.

Europe, with 14% of total world emissions, cannot conceivably carry the entire burden. Ireland, which is responsible for a small fraction of the European figure, could not possibly agree to carry the burden in the way the Deputy's legislation, well intentioned though it was, suggested. Perhaps it would not have been difficult for parties to support a proposal but to put it into law would have been a very dangerous way to go. However, we have had that debate.

I have never voted positively for GMOs since I came into this Ministry. We have abstained. We are with Germany, where one of the Deputy's Green Party colleagues has just left office, on that issue. The individual in question is a man with impeccable credentials in all matters. We are also with the Czech Republic and Spain on the issue. On the other hand, those in favour include the United Kingdom, Sweden and Finland. Sweden, which is always cited as a country we should support, voted in favour, as did France, the Netherlands and Estonia. The remaining countries are against them. The Government's policy, as has always been the case, is precautionary. I am probably being over precautionary on the GMO issue because it does not involve food. It involves the introduction of a maize product to create, inter alia, coatings for sparking plugs. However, I am taking this particular line on principle.

I gave my views on bituminous coal to Deputy O'Dowd. It is difficult because the European Court of Justice case in ongoing. The fact a country is before the European Court of Justice means nothing other than that a charge has been made. It does not mean that the country in question is necessarily guilty. The European Court of Justice case relates to ozone depletion substances. I can confirm that we are due to report to the Commission shortly. Given the volume of cases pending against Ireland, I spoke to senior personnel in the Commission and to the Commissioner and we established a task force to go through them. There is an agreement in the Commission that many of those so-called allegations and charges against Ireland will not proceed any further. I asked if we could clear the files. I said if there are files about which it is not happy, it should get rid of them so that we can concentrate on the ones in respect of which serious concerns remain. I have done so in respect of nitrates because I anticipate that we will have the regulation up and running and signed so that we can go into the negotiations on the derogation, which is critical to Irish farming.

I appreciate the Minister's contribution on climate change. Instead of standing back and waiting for Europe to tell us what to do, we should show some vision and leadership. I acknowledge that there are winners and losers in this debate. There are sunrise industries and sunset industries. I do not think the likes of an aluminium smelter can go on forever if we are to save the planet. That is the hard reality.

When one sees an industry such as the Carlow sugar factory close and realise that there would be an obvious new way to revive it through the production of bioethanol, it is unfortunate that the Government is not providing support. In agriculture, Ireland is 1% organic while Wales is4%. When one sees that organic farming could generate employment for more people on the land, it is unfortunate that Ireland is not moving in that direction and providing encouragement.

When one considers that there are 27 types of renewable energy into which we could tap but that only two of these are being commercially used at present, one can see that the potential for employment and enterprise is not being grasped by the Government. Particularly in agriculture, where farmers are leaving the land in unprecedented numbers, one must acknowledge that meeting our climate change targets could mean more organic foods and more people working on the land. It could also mean that people could be employed to produce crops for biofuels and a huge boost not only for exporting cattle on the hoof but for production in, and added value being created in, Ireland and employing people here.

There is a very bright future for Irish farming. It would be brighter if we adhered to the type of targets Europe is setting for us in the area of climate change. There is huge potential which is, as yet, untapped. That message must be sent. The contributions from the Minister's party did not even enter into that discussion, which was a missed opportunity for him and his colleagues.

If I were one of the 1,200 people who depended for a pay package on Aughinish Alumina, what the Deputy said would put a chill up my spine. We cannot just decide to write off more than 1,000 people in part of this country for an aspiration. That is the hard reality which one must face in Government. That is the point I made yesterday to Fine Gael and Labour. While the sentiment in the Bill may be absolutely admirable, when one votes on a Bill, one votes on the content. If we were to go the way the Deputy proposes, we would close down that plant because there is no way it could bear the additional imposition. One would hear that from some of the energy emitters. To move from 13 percentage points above to 30 percentage points below would have an absolutely devastating impact on companies such as that, which has undergone a difficult process to remain in business.

The danger of the debate in that regard, although valuable, is that it sends out signals which would damage us. I will not make a political point.

However, there are tens of thousands of people employed in renewable industries in Germany and the Minister is simply not allowing that to happen here. There is planning permission on the Arklow bank for 150 wind turbines, only seven of which have been built. The Minister needs to send out signals that there will be employment.

I made the point that myself and Deputy Cuffe would be at idem on the difficulties and issues, raised in parliamentary questions to another Department, which have been thrown in the way, particularly of small wind turbine generators on farms. Everybody knows. We all are getting reports now of difficulties with the ESB but that is a matter which should be taken up elsewhere.

On the second point Deputy Cuffe made, I know his attitude towards the export of live cattle. I understand the point being made. I am fully aware of the problem. The point about it is that to simply decide to close off a certain type of Irish agriculture would have an incredible impact on an industry which is being squeezed now.

We never said that.

Both Deputy Cuffe and I are urban Deputies. In fact, I have been meeting with the IFA. It is one of the most responsible groups because it is trying to rise to and change the issue. I would advise a more moderated attitude there.

I too wish the Minister well in this meeting with his European counterparts in Brussels. I want to make two brief points. First, I echo the sentiments expressed by Deputy Cuffe, and by Deputy Gilmore yesterday, in response to the European Environment Agency. As the Minister stated, it does not tell the full picture. There would be benefit in inviting that organisation to this committee to discuss its concerns, to find out why it issued a report ranking us low in terms of protection of the environment, to find out what it would propose we should do to get Ireland back up higher on that league table and to ask the questions that need to be asked if we are to tell the full story.

In terms of urban sprawl, the Minister made the point that the economic success in this country over the past ten years has meant that one third of all Irish homes were built in the past ten years. To borrow his own phrase, I hope that he will tell the full story if that is discussed in the imminent meeting. While what the Minister stated is correct and we had a good debate on this issue with the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, in the Seanad last week, there is a considerable shortage of affordable housing in this country. The manner in which the Minister's predecessor was able to gift 80,000 planning permissions back to developers in late 2002 has added significantly to the crisis in housing in this country. There is a fuller picture. While what he states statistically is quite correct and impressive on the face of it, to borrow the Minister's phrase I hope the full story on the lack of affordable and social housing in this country will be told.

The first point I would make about affordable and social housing is that we all represent different political parties. The first action we could take, if any of us are serious about social housing, is look at the statistics I published last year. Less than one quarter of the local authorities over a ten year period met their housing output targets. That occurred under successive different Administrations. It occurred, not just under Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats Administrations but also under the Fine Gael-Labour-Democratic Left Administration. That is what occurred and it is a disgrace. If the Minister, whether he is a Deputy for Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or Labour, gives a local authority the right to build 100 houses and it builds 60, the local authority is denying 40 people homes and that is a matter for which we all must take responsibility.

I recognise that there will be special pleading from the local authorities that they were not sure what money was available from one year to the next. While that was a valid point that they could make, it is no longer a valid point because we now have — every party agrees with this because it was all agreed and subscribed to in the Estimates process — an envelop of funding.

The local authorities have been asked to produce five-year development plans for housing. Senator McCarthy, who would have more influence than I have, can see from the first two years that local authorities are behind in that regard. Senator McCarthy should look at the position in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. I have said this time and again. In talking about affordability in social housing, and with an excess between social and affordable housing it becomes really critical, one is talking about the greater Dublin area. It is not acceptable that any public authority should fail, year in, year out, over a ten to 11 year period to meet its target.

The comments on urbanisation in this report are extraordinary. For some reason, they are not one of the nine indicators. They made the comment and then did not bother to deal with it. We have experienced massive population growth. As members will be aware, when we joined the European Union we had a population of under 3 million. The population is now in excess of 4 million and is heading towards 5 million. Senator McCarthy is quite right to state that we produced massive numbers of houses. Our housing performance is more impressive than the performance in other countries.

The reality is that by and large Irish people do not want to live in high-rise schemes. As we all know, and Deputy Cuffe will know because we have had this discussion in the context of his constituency, the theory is fine but with — as is currently the case in Deputy Cuffe's constituency and in mine — more intensive use of sites, one is beginning to get high-rise, some of which is good, bad and mediocre, emerging cheek by jowl with conventional housing. The realities of the Irish housing situation are not dealt with purely by a statistical observation made by the EEA. My personal view is that the EEA would be better off to stick with more objective criteria for judgment.

My second point is not made as a partisan point either and it refers to a couple of local authorities. Laois is the one to which I have written recently stating, as I am sure most members would agree, that the proposals in its development plan are not sustainable. That is the point the EEA is making, that if there are large clusters of housing resulting in a Rochfordbridge effect, one does not have the facilities and then one must play catch-up. This results in young families living in communities where there is no school. I remember when I moved into Greystones. Incidentally, this is what got me into politics, the unacceptable fact that people did not even have water or sewerage systems. That is why we put in place the national spatial strategy why there is a planning process and why there are really good examples from some local authorities and, unfortunately, examples at the other extreme.

A more holistic view than the sort of comment that was made is necessary. I prefer the Irish traditional housing system than, for example, some of the traditional housing systems that I have seen in countries which have grown much better. The breakdown in France recently is because of the pattern of urbanisation. They have cities like Montpellie, which is a low-rise city where, suddenly, at the outskirts there are massive blocks in which people live. We are demolishing such blocks in Ballymun and I make no apologies for moving in that direction.

We cannot have a discussion on housing. I realise I allowed the question and the Minister responded comprehensively.

Due to the difficulty in accessing electronically the report from the EEA, would the Minister make a hard copy available?

I will try. I do not control the EEA — in fact, quite the opposite — but we will get it. Deputy Cuffe made the fair point that it was difficult to make a balanced comment when all one got was a negative headline. I have already complained to the commission about that. It is not a fair or proper way to work. It misled the media in this country two months ago with an entirely erroneous press release, which it subsequently withdrew stating it got it wrong. It had misinformed newsrooms, but it was not innocent. The commission telephoned the newsrooms and misled serious journalists. It never apologised for doing that. That is not an appropriate way for the commission to do its business. If it has bad news, it should tell the bad news objectively and if it has good news, it should do likewise. It should not be misleading people.

I agree with Deputy Cuffe. I will try to get Senator McCarthy a copy of the report. I will suggest that in the next report, rather than picking at random nine indicators which are bound to skew one way or the other for somebody, it let us have all 250, which is the point Deputy Cuffe made.

The committee might consider inviting the commission to come before us to put the points and get the complete story.

Depending on our work schedule.

I wish to raise another issue with the Minister. Later in the agenda the committee will deal with a letter from Donal O'Riain of Ecocem Ireland Limited regarding radical changes urgently needed to prevent emissions trading from driving green cement from Ireland, destroying industrial jobs and costing taxpayers millions of euro. He is looking for a meeting with the committee before Christmas which we will not be able to facilitate. I wish to give the Minister notice in advance that we will be referring that letter to him for an urgent response.

Certainly. The Chairman and I have had this discussion. I personally favour the industry making better use of green cement because it is a real win-win situation in many ways. Green cement means that one is using a by-product of incineration or industrial processes to make cement rather than further burning. I understand officials from my Department met representatives of that company last week. I have had a couple of meetings on green cement. When revising contracts for public jobs, the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, made specific reference to green cement being acceptable. While it cannot be used in every situation, green cement has many positive aspects. There is no reluctance officially to using it. Whether the industry is as enthusiastic as I am is another day's work. The committee will have an opportunity to discuss the matter with the industry.

I also wish to be associated with the best wishes to the Minister on his deliberations tomorrow. I wish him to confirm something for me. A figure was mentioned during the course of the debate in the past couple of days. It was stated that in trying to achieve our targets of 13%, there would be a cost of €120 million per year to taxpayers. Deputy Gilmore referred to this matter. Can the Minister confirm if what he said is the case?

He has certainly made that suggestion several times. As he is not here, I do not wish say that he wants to mislead anyone.

He is in Brussels.

Good man. Perhaps on the way he will get an opportunity to check his mathematics. The suggestion he made that we face a fine of €120 million is not correct. We have a target to be 13% above the 1990 level in the indicative period of 2008-12. The consultants' view was that we must suppress 8 million tonnes of carbon emissions to reach that point.

Deputy Gilmore is aware that the Government indicated in February 2004 that it is prepared to buy 3.7 million in carbon credits. Some 3.7 million in carbon credits at the indicative price of €15 works out at €55.5 million and, therefore, Deputy Gilmore's calculations are wrong. He has taken the entire 8 million tonnes and multiplied them by 15, which is wrong. Roughly speaking, slightly less than half the 8 million tonnes will be met from emissions trading companies, of which there are currently 105. Industry must meet approximately half of this. After that, the State must find ways to attenuate carbon. Last week, for example, the Minister for Agriculture and Food announced significant grants for anaerobic digestion. Either Deputy Gilmore misunderstands the way the system works, which is the most benign interpretation, or he is just bad at mathematics. Either way, he is wrong. It might be wrong to suggest that he is being disingenuous but he certainly would not pass primary certificate mathematics.

The primary examination was abolished.

It was not abolished in his day or mine. If one multiplies the figures, one will get a different picture. The Deputy's calculation is based on taking the whole 8 million tonnes and not attenuating any of it, then taking the worst case scenario which is that industry does nothing, that there is no emissions trading centre, that one does not introduce new targets or savings and that one has to pay at the indicative price. He has done better because he has gone beyond the indicative price. He also said it would amount to €160 million and, therefore, he has attenuated his own view, which is incorrect.

The €15 is the international consultants' indicative figure. The figure of 3.7 million arises only if one does not achieve savings. Sometimes savings are achieved because of positive policies and sometimes they are achieved because of events — for example, the closure of IFI and the disappearance of ISPAT, two big emissions companies — that could not have been foreseen. More savings can be achieved if energy production companies become more efficient. Policies can be positive and negative.

As Deputy Cuffe said, biofuels are very important. We have introduced a benign regime for ethanol in cars. One can buy a litre of ethanol in Merrion for 85 cent or 86 cent a litre, which is a significant saving. This is because the excess is written off. This energy source requires some change in the cars such as the introduction of dual-fuel models. However, this will result in savings. As I said to Deputy Cuffe, I issued a direction to my Department to convert all the vans of the National Parks and Wildlife Service to run on biofuels. Cork City Council must be congratulated on its decision, without any prompting from me, to change all its vehicles to run on biofuels, which it is doing very successfully. There are many ways to reach these targets.

I thank the Minister for his attendance and for his comprehensive replies to the questions put by members. We wish him well at the EU meeting.

The joint committee went into private session at 10.46 a.m. and adjourned at 10.52 a.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 6 December 2005.

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