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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 26 Jun 2012

Wastewater Treatment Systems: Discussion with Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government

I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan. I also welcome Mr. Ivan Grimes, principal officer, and Mr. Tony Keogh, assistant principal officer, in the water services policy division in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. Thank you for your attendance.

I wish to draw your attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I also wish to advise you that the opening statements you have submitted to the committee will be published on the committee website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Before commencing with the presentations I would like to say a few words. I am glad the Minister, Deputy Hogan, has come back to the committee to discuss the implementation of the Water Services (Amendment) Act 2012. As you are fully aware the members are very concerned that the provisions are implemented in a fair and equitable way with due cognisance being given to individual circumstances and the ability to pay of various groups, including those who are unemployed and those who are on pensions. It is very important for us to clarify today what are the performance standards that will be required and how these will be measured.

We also need some clarification on the costs involved to householders and how they will be expected to meet these costs.

I ask the Minister to address the committee.

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to return to the committee to discuss the performance standards for domestic wastewater treatment systems which I am proposing to provide for in regulations made in accordance with the provisions of the Water Services (Amendment) Act 2012. The legislation was well-debated in both Houses and here with the committee and, in total, we spent more than 30 hours examining the legislation before it was enacted.

There are two main reasons for the implementation of the legislation which provides for a new system for the registration and inspection of domestic wastewater treatment systems, including septic tanks. The key objective is to enhance and protect public health and the environment which will, in turn, benefit rural dwellers in terms of a better quality of life and better quality water.

Implementation of the new system will also help to enhance Ireland's environmental reputation, with positive economic benefits for the tourism, recreation, agricultural and food-producing sectors, all of which rely on clean water. Good quality water can also be an important factor in helping to attract new inward investment to support and create employment in sectors such as pharmaceuticals and ICT.

The second reason for the legislation is to ensure compliance with the European Court of Justice ruling against Ireland in October 2009 in respect of the treatment of wastewater from septic tanks and other on-site wastewater treatment systems. The court found that by failing to adopt the necessary legislation to comply with Articles 4 and 8 of the EU waste directive as regards domestic wastewater disposed of in the countryside through septic tanks and other individual wastewater treatment systems, Ireland had failed to fulfil its obligations under that directive.

The early enactment of the legislation is a critical element in Ireland's defence against the imposition of fines by the court. The defence was filed on 3 February and the fact that the primary legislation had already been enacted at that time was received favourably by the European Commission. My officials have continued to liaise closely with the Commission regarding implementation of the legislation. I remind the committee of the implications of not implementing the legislation - the court could impose a lump sum penalty of almost €4 million and daily fines for continued non-compliance of up to €26,000.

The new legislation augments the provisions of the Water Services Act 2007, whereby owners of septic tanks and other on-site treatment systems must ensure that their systems do not cause a risk to human health or the environment. The basic standards to be met by an owner are set down in section 70C(1) of the 2012 Act, specifically that the system does not constitute a risk to human health or to the environment. The legislation also provides for the making of regulations to specify standards for performance, operation and maintenance of treatment systems, including desludging. During the debates on the passage of the legislation though the Oireachtas, a number of members expressed concerns that any regulations could potentially impose significant and unreasonable demands on owners of domestic wastewater treatment systems. At that time, I gave a commitment to publish the performance standards that I would be proposing for a public consultation in order that all interested parties could consider the consultation document and, if they had any comments, to make a submission. A consultation programme regarding the draft standards was launched on 1 March 2012 and concluded on 30 March 2012. In total, 165 submissions were received and these were subsequently reviewed by my Department and the EPA. As a result, a number of the proposals in the consultation document have been revised or deleted.

Following analysis of the submissions received, I redrafted the performance standards and it is my intention, following this meeting, to give the standards legal effect from today. I am certain committee members will agree that these standards are entirely reasonable and consistent with what owners should be doing as a matter of course to ensure that their systems are working properly. For example, the regulations will provide that there should be no leakage of effluent onto the ground or into nearby waters - no right-thinking person could disagree with this proposition.

I have also decided, arising from the submissions received, that the performance standards should avoid any provisions which could have potential health and safety requirements for owners. The regulations will require owners to ensure that rain or surface-water run-offs should not be allowed enter the treatment system because to allow such waters into the system would simply overwhelm the treatment system.

I do not consider it necessary to refer explicitly in the regulations to grey water as the existing definitions of wastewater in the Water Services Acts 2007 ensure that grey water is adequately addressed. I am aware that it is quite common in older properties to have some grey water discharged separately from the house to a soakaway. This situation is acceptable. In such cases, the owner's responsibilities regarding protection of human health and the environment will still apply and, in these cases, both the tank and the soakaway and the drain through which the grey water is discharged must be operated and maintained correctly.

The regulations will also address the requirements for the desludging of treatment systems. Householders should only have their system emptied by a permitted waste collector and the regulations will require that desludging is carried out at intervals appropriate to household occupancy and the tank's capacity.

The 2012 Act provides for payment of a registration fee which is intended to cover the costs of administration of the register by the water services authorities and of the inspections to be carried out. Householders can register their systems from today and a public information campaign, including details of how and when to register, will be rolled out.

On-line and written facilities for registration have been developed by the Local Government Management Agency on a shared service basis for the local authorities. The online facility is at protectourwater.ie and hard copies of the application forms are available from all local authority offices and from libraries and citizens information centres. Completed forms, and payment can be sent to a central processing bureau at Protect Our Water, PO Box 12204, Dublin 7. They can also be handed in at local authority offices.

The Act specifies that the maximum fee payable will be €50. However, in order to incentivise early registration, I gave a commitment that a reduced registration fee of €5 would apply for the first three months. The regulations provide that the €5 registration fee will apply to all those registering on or before 28 September. I encourage all owners of properties connected to domestic wastewater treatment systems to take advantage of the reduced fee payable for the next three months. The reduced fee provides an opportunity for householders who wish to comply with their obligations to do so at minimal cost. From 29 September next, a €50 fee will apply. The regulations also provide that owners should have registered their systems by 1 February 2013.

Inspections under the new legislation will commence in 2013 and will be based on a national inspection plan to be drawn up by the EPA. As the EPA has only recently commenced the process of preparing the inspection plan, no decisions have been made regarding the numbers or locations of inspections to be carried out, or the risk-based criteria to be used when targeting those inspections. I can confirm that there will be no charge for inspections.

Inspections will be carried out by the local authorities and they will be objective, evidence-based and aimed at identifying systems which are a risk to public health or the environment. Many rural people receive their water supply from their own well or they are members of group water schemes. They are more aware than most that poorly operated or maintained on-site systems can cause a serious risk to the health of their families and their neighbours. It is rural dwellers who stand to gain most from the identification and remediation of poorly operated or maintained systems.

If a septic tank or similar system is being operated and maintained properly, and by that I mean, that it is not causing pollution, no action will be necessary. Unless there is evidence of endangerment of human health or the environment, the system in place, irrespective of its age or type, will pass inspection. There is no question of applying new standards, for example those of the EPA's 2009 code of practice, to older on-site systems. There is certainly no question of forcing people to acquire additional land to accommodate remediation works or to apply for planning permission.

There is no doubt that remediation work to some on-site systems will be necessary. However, based on the experience in County Cavan, where over 3,000 inspections have taken place as a result of the by-laws in place in that county, this is likely to arise in only a limited number of cases. The extent of the remediation work and the timescale for completing it will depend on the precise nature of the problem and the extent of the risk to public health or the environment.

I have stated on a number of occasions that planning permission would not be required for remediation works arising from implementation of the new legislation. During our debates, I gave a commitment that this would be catered for through the planning code. I am pleased to report that my officials are putting in place the necessary exemptions before inspections begin. Officials from the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht are assisting so as to ensure that the exemptions provided will take account of the requirements of relevant EU directives on habitats required by Section 4(4)(a) and (b) of the Planning and Development Acts 2000-10.

I am very aware of householders' concerns that they may incur significant expense in repairing or upgrading their systems if they fail an inspection. I can assure householders that, as part of the inspection process, all options to resolve the problem will be explored so that the most appropriate and cost-effective solution can be identified, and that I am committed to keep under review all options to provide financial support to those whose systems are deemed, following an inspection, to require upgrading. As inspections will not begin until next year and as it is not possible to predict the future, it is not possible for me to make any commitments on potential grant assistance for owners whose systems might be found to require remediation. Any grants scheme that I might introduce in the future must have regard to the budgetary constraints under which we are operating and the financial circumstances of the households concerned.

Thank you, Chairman, and your members for your attention and for the opportunity to address the meeting today.

Thank you very much. You were correct in your opening deliberations. There were about 30 hours spent on debating this Bill as it went through the House. I reckon that ten of those hours were spent here in the committee, and much debate and correspondence went into it.

I would like to conclude this meeting by 5 o'clock. I will take an introductory question from each of the different groups, namely, Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin, the Technical Group, the Labour Party and Fine Gael and I will composite all questions after that. The lead spokespersons will go first, as has always been the case on this committee, and the secondary commentary will be composited. I need an indication from the Technical Group as to who its spokesperson will be. I also need to know the lead person for Fine Gael. I assume that Deputy Ó Cuív is leading for Fianna Fáil on this issue, so I will call on him first.

I am pleased the Minister has attended this meeting. Even though the regulation is very short, to a certain extent it leaves more unanswered questions than answered questions. There are some answered questions and I welcome that. However, the court judgment, if we read paragraphs 74, 75, 80, 81 and 85, made it clear that SR6 was not of a sufficient standard in most of Ireland to comply with Directive 75/442. It states clearly that Ireland has failed to adopt regulations and administrative provisions necessary to comply with Article 4 and Article 8 of Directive 75/442, in regard to domestic waste waters disposed of in the countryside through septic tanks and other IWWTS. Since European law takes precedence over anything we do here, then no matter what the Minister puts into the regulation, Europe has ruled that SR6 or anything before it does not comply with the standards that they require. Therefore, it is only when we see the plan the inspectors get from the EPA will we have an idea on the standards to be applied on the ground to comply with the European law. No mater what we write into Irish law, European law takes precedent and European law seems to be very clear on this as have a case judgment on it. Can the Minister confirm that the judgment of the court was that SR6 and by extension, anything before SR6, does not comply with Directive 75/442 and that people will have to comply with that?

I presume the Minister consulted with the EPA on this and that organisation is happy with his regulation. My next question relates to the grant. The Minister was confident in what he said in his speech but towards the end he said that his Department will start the inspections next year and will ascertain the size of the problem, and if it is too expensive it will not provide any grants because we cannot afford them. He said in his speech that he does not know where the money is, but he has €1.5 billion for water and waste water services, so the source of the money is quite clear. He then states that a grant scheme he might have to introduce would have to have regard to budgetary constraints. Of course it would, but it would come out of the €1.5 billion and as we have pointed out before, there has been a mismatch in the way that money has been spent between urban and rural areas. We all agree with having clean water and I must say that the Minister has a big thing about clean water. If we really want to focus on clean water, the biggest source of the pollution in this country, according to the EPA analysis, comes from the municipal systems. If this is going to be as benign as the Minister claims, then why will there not be a grant for those who will have to upgrade? There is no doubt that there will be people who have to upgrade.

Why are rural people treated differently from urban people? When they maintain the system and take away people's sewerage in urban Ireland, they both maintain it and upgrade it at no cost to the householder. There is no means test for that. Can the Minister confirm that he will look again at ensuring a grant is put in place now, that such a grant is not means tested as it is not means tested in the cities, and that there will be a maintenance payment in lieu of the maintenance money spent from the grants to local authorities to maintain the public systems? In other words, the private systems should be maintained because the Minister is now making recommendations on desludging.

I thank the Minister for telling us that he is talking to the NPWS and that the issue of a planning exemption in environmentally designated areas is being taken seriously. I raised that issue several times and I did not get a clear answer. I know now why I did not get a clear answer, because the Minister is still in negotiations with the NPWS. It was a valid question and I am pleased he is now discussing that issue.

Is the Deputy going to claim credit for something that did not happen at all?

We are tight for time so I will ask the Deputy to conclude.

When the Minister is talking to the NPWS, can he get clarification that even if there is no need for planning, there will be no need either for environmental screening or an environmental impact analysis for an upgrade? I am pleased that the Minister has given a guarantee that no matter how small a site and no matter how deficient a waste water system, another site will not have to be bought to comply with these regulations.

The proposals that we are putting before the committee have all been agreed with the European Commission. It was the Commission that took us to the European Court of Justice for the non-compliance of Irish legislation under the waste directive. The Commission is satisfied with the proposals and has extended the time to allow us to committee to discuss them and have a period of public consultation on the issue. That is a big difference to what you proposed when you were Minister in the last Government, which was a universal-----

I did not propose anything.

Minister, please make your comments through the Chair.

I would like to draw attention to the Deputy that-----

I want to correct the Minister.

You will correct nobody. You will speak through the Chair.

On a point of information, I wish to clarify that no proposals were brought to Government. Two memorandums were brought to Government and we instructed the Minister to draw up legislative proposals but they were never progressed because the Government fell before that could happen.

The proposals were brought forward by the previous Government.

They were not brought by the Government. They were brought by the Minister.

The Government failed to get agreement with the European Commission on the proposals for a universal inspections of all septic tanks. I realise this does not suit Deputy Ó Cuív. The proposal included compliance with the EPA code of practice for 2009 and an annual inspection charge. That was the proposal of the previous Government.

The Government never-----

(Interruptions).

Stop, both of you. The last time you were at the committee, Deputy Ó Cuív, I had to suspend the meeting twice and I threatened to throw you out. I have no wish to do so this afternoon. You have had your opening five minutes without interruption.

He is telling lies.

The Minister will have his five minutes.

Deputy O'Cuív said I was telling lies.

He is telling lies.

The meeting will conclude at 5 p.m. I can conclude it with or without suspension but either way it will conclude at 5 p.m.

If the Minister insists on telling lies I will put it to him that he is telling lies.

It is disgraceful to suggest the Minister is telling lies.

I will deal with the second matter now.

It is not acceptable.

Deputy Ó Cuív has put an allegation to the Minister. He can either stand over it or withdraw it.

I stand over the allegation.

On that basis, I must ask you to leave the committee because you are out of order. If you are standing over the allegation that the Minister is a liar I must ask you to leave the committee.

I withdraw the allegation. He was stating a total untruth.

That is grand. The allegation is withdrawn.

He is being totally untruthful.

I assure Deputy Ó Cuív that the regulations before the House were drawn up in conjunction with the Environmental Protection Agency and the regulations and approvals are signed off by the European Commission. I agree with Deputy Ó Cuív that a large source of the pollution is the local authorities. During the good times we spent a good deal of money to try to do something about the particular urban and village areas with problems We need to spend more money in these areas. I have spent €50 million in Deputy Ó Cuív's county in the past year in areas such as Clifden, Tuam, Oughterard, Claregalway, Kinvara and Athenry.

The Minister has not done so.

I often wonder why these schemes were not up and running before now.

Did the Minister explain the costs in any of those areas?

I do not know what Deputy Ó Cuív was doing as a Minister for 14 years of good times when he could not do that for his own area.

We did most of the schemes. There were a few tail end schemes.

I am pleased that, in spite of the fact that we are in a bailout programme with the European Union and the IMF, we are in a position to provide these resources for Deputy Ó Cuív's county of Galway, especially for Connemara. There will be no blank cheque for the funding of any grant scheme until we see the extent of the problem. The financial situation of the country, which Deputy Ó Cuív was centrally involved in bringing about, is a clear reason no Government in future should be allowed to go down the road of signing blank cheques.

The maintenance grants to which Deputy Ó Cuív referred represents a shifting of the goal posts, having stated clearly during 30 hours of these proceedings that no planning permission would be required, that a solution would be found for any given septic tank on-site, that there would not necessarily be a need to acquire additional land and that a pragmatic solution would be found, such as that found in County Cavan. I am pleased that no one has agreed these proposals more fully than those responsible in the European Commission. Deputy Ó Cuív and his party failed to achieve this when he was in a position to do something about it.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. I welcome the fact that the country filed a defence in February. We engaged in the process and we have tried to be constructive about it. Some changes have taken place along the way with the legislation. We did not get our way in some areas but I welcome the changes to the appeal fees and certain other changes. The country must comply with it because it is an EU directive. This should have taken place years ago. The fact that we are doing this in 2012 is a poor reflection on us and on those here before us. The regulations and standards are coming into being from today but I have not yet seen them. I have only seen the draft or proposed regulations and standards. We engaged in the process and we made submissions. I welcome the fact that many submissions have been made; I understand 156 were made in total.

The Minister, Deputy Hogan, has stated that he agreed the standards with the EPA and I take him at his word. Will the Minister outline, however, where the agreement with the EU Commission took place and how tight it is?

The issue of grey water was raised during discussions. The Minister suggested we need not be concerned about it but I am concerned that this will come back at us especially in the case of older developments mainly inhabited by people on low incomes.

The other concern relates to seeing the standards as quickly as possible. If they are in force from today we will probably see them later this afternoon when they are e-mailed to us but the Minister should let us know.

Another concern relates to fringe developments on the edges of towns and I call on the Minster to address it. He stated that householders will not have to purchase land but there are many houses on the edges of towns, for example, Mountmellick and Portlaoise, where septic tanks are in close proximity to each other. A large sewerage scheme was launched in Kilkenny lately. Many of these towns will need extra work carried out to try to connect these areas of ribbon development to the sewerage schemes. Will the Minister outline his thoughts in this regard?

I realise the Minster cannot write a blank cheque when it comes to grants and I would not argue for it. We need to send a signal to those in rural Ireland, however, who will be looking at the regulations and looking at the septic tanks outside their houses in the knowledge that they will be unable to comply, given the other financial difficulties they may be under as a result of job losses, negative equity and large mortgages. How are they supposed to square that circle? The Minister should not be flippant on this issue. The Minister referred to not signing a blank cheque. I respect that and I would not ask him to do so but we should send some signal to the people affected. I can think of half a dozen people in my immediate area in this exact predicament.

I welcome the exemption which means that no planning permission will be needed. This is something we sought all along and I welcome the fact that it has been secured.

I welcome Deputy Stanley's constructive comments on the efforts we have made to try to comply with the European Court of Justice judgment and to deal with the performance standards. We have tried to make it as easy as we can to ensure people are compliant and that we have good quality water.

During the course of this process we have remained in constant contact with the European Commission. It has engaged with us along every step of the way. I would have preferred to have been able to say more during the various stages of the legislation and perhaps it would have made things easier for me had I done so. Anyway, I was unable to do so because we were still in negotiations at each step of the way on the legislation on all of these standards. We have attained a reasonable outcome. People generally did not expect the European Commission to help us or provide the considerable assistance it has in order that we comply with a European Court of Justice judgment on a risk-based approach. This is the first time this has taken place in the European Union and that there has been an agreement on a risk-based approach to deal with ground water issues.

Deputy Stanley referred to people who have difficulties with their septic tanks. I imagine such people are not complying with the 2007 Act in any case. Irrespective of the view of the European Court of Justice in the past in respect of these regulations, those people are already in breach of the 2007 Act if they are polluting ground water or if there is a problem with their septic tanks.

Will they be placed under inspection?

It is a risk-based assessment. There will be a registration process. Not everyone will be inspected. Inspections will be concentrated on areas where there are rivers, streams and lakes and where there is the greatest risk to groundwater sources.

I agree with the points Deputy Stanley made on ribbon developments and group sewerage schemes. Were we in good financial times I would be happy to suggest that we could increase the grant assistance available for group sewerage schemes to the level available now for group water schemes, that is, approximately €6,400 per house. At the moment a figure of €2,200 is available for group sewerage schemes. It would be nice to bring them to parity. If there was to be financial assistance under the rural water programme during the remainder of the year, I would consider this. However, I am unable to give a solemn commitment today until I see if savings can be made. It is possible that for a relatively small sum of money people could come together to deal with ribbon development issues, including poor soakage or percolation, adjacent to a town or village which may have escaped the provision of a public supply when times were good.

Like other speakers, I am delighted the Minister is before the committee. Several promises were made that the guidelines would be announced, but we have not had sight of them. The Minister came to my county last February and announced they would be published within ten days. That night he also told the people that grey water would have to be included. At that stage he was dubbed the Minister for Confusion and he has not allayed people's fears today. I know this is the result of a decision of the European Court and that the Minister says the court is happy with these measures. I hope that is the case. We asked several times for stakeholders to be brought before the committee. Will the Minister allow stakeholders to be consulted? I suggest he bring in our friends in An Taisce also and let us know if they are happy with them. We are all for providing clean water and compliance, but a hames was made of this issue.

I must return to the issue of registration. I refer to the Minister's announcement in County Tipperary. I said it was Fiver Monday instead of Joe Duffy's Fiver Friday. He said he intended to change the registration fee from €50 to €5 and told us it would happen-----

To clarify, that is not the €5 the Deputy was collecting.

I just wanted to have that clarified.

Thank you, Chairman. We can clarify it again later if you will allow me to interrupt when others are speaking.

I just wanted to have the matter clarified..

I was not taking any fiver; I was showing what the Minister meant. He told us it was a matter for primary legislation and that the charge could not be changed, but ceremoniously, one evening in County Tipperary under pressure, he dropped the fee by €45. We are glad he chose County Tipperary in which to do so.

(Interruptions).

I had better things to do than listening to what I will not call lies.

The Deputy can see what he missed out on.

Please, Deputy.

However, I will call them untruths. We were also told that evening that the registration process would begin on April Fool's Day - what a day to pick - and on 30 June. He must have meant it as an April Fool's Day joke because when people tried to register, even up until last week, they could not do so. When I contacted the Department - perhaps the officials present might be able to explain it - I was told the registration process was not open.

I would appreciate answers from the officials on the consultation process. A total of 168 documents were received - one of which was mine and another was from my daughter who had built a house. However, we failed again. When we went to make a submission, it was closed. I went on Pat Kenny's show and asked that it be advertised to the public that the process was closing because the Department did not advertise this fact. I ask the Minister to say where the consultation process was advertised, other than in the announcement here and at his press conference. People were unable to send in their submissions. When my daughter telephoned the Department on the day use a freefone number, the person to whom she spoke said he had nothing to do with it. He gave her the number of another official who was quite irate when he was questioned and said everything was okay until Deputy Mattie McGrath had gone on Pat Kenny's show and confused matters. There has been deliberate confusion and blackguarding of the public and a waste of public money. We were told there was public consultation when there was not. People were told to register from 1 April - April Fool's Day - but they still cannot register. Now the Minister informs us that it is open from today. I want these lies - that is what they are - to be corrected today.

Please, Deputy-----

Call them what one wants, I want them corrected.

Just one moment, Deputy-----

It has been a farce from start to finish. If the Department is allowed to tell lies-----

This man cannot be allowed to continue in that way.

Excuse me, I am also a Deputy.

Please respect the Chair, Deputy.

Deputy Mattie McGrath cannot call anybody a liar.

I am not telling lies.

I am on my feet.

This is another pathetic effort by Deputy Mattie McGrath. The only people about whom he is concerned are himself and his daughter.

Please, Deputy McGrath, I ask you to desist.

He does not care about the public.

I ask the Deputy to do likewise.

What do I call it?

The Deputy is frustrated and running out. He has burned himself out.

I am not running out.

Please, Deputy.

The vista visited on the public-----

This meeting will conclude at 5 p.m. We can spend the time in this way or we can use it constructively.

It is not waffle.

We cannot spend the time in this way.

What will happen is that the sitting will be suspended and time will be lost. I object to some of the language being used by Deputy Mattie McGrath. I ask him to be more temperate and more measured in his use of language. He has used the word, "lies". That is an allegation I ask him to withdraw and if he cannot do so, I will ask him to leave the meeting.

Misinformation was disseminated to the public. We cannot put up with this. As an elected representative, I cannot put up with this charade and it is nothing but a charade.

To allow the Deputy to continue in this way-----

No, I will have to continue because-----

I am trying to help the Deputy.

He should withdraw his remarks.

I will not because it is fact.

As I am trying to help the Deputy, will he, please, listen? He will not be permitted to continue his deliberations in this way and will be required to leave the meeting if he continues to refuse to withdraw the accusation that someone was telling lies. If he wishes to use another phrase,I will allow him to continue, but-----

Go to the dictionary because it was total misinformation.

Do not be pedantic or use semantics.

It was misinformation.

I have given the Deputy an option; otherwise, I will bring this to a conclusion and the Deputy will be out the door and lose his option to continue what he was saying. Will he withdraw the term he used?

No, because it was total misinformation and a charade. I can speak for my daughter, not for others.

In all fairness, the Deputy is far more clever than this. He will either withdraw the terminology used - "lies" - or he will leave the meeting.

Please, Deputy, I do not need your assistance.

No, I cannot withdraw it because it was surreal.

(Interruptions).

The Deputy may use the word, "charade", and others-----

We were told downright lies by the Minister time and again.

I must ask the Deputy to withdraw that comment. He has just accused the Minister of telling lies. I now ask him to remove himself from the meeting or withdraw the comment. The sitting is suspended for five minutes while the Deputy leaves the committee room.

Sitting suspended at 3.45 p.m. and resumed at 3.50 p.m.

I thank the Minister for delivering on his commitment to return to the committee to update us on the issues we raised on previous occasions. We are all aware at this stage of the damage caused when groundwater is polluted. Legislation to protect the quality of our water is long overdue. As the Chairman indicated, we have clocked up some 30 hours in discussing these provisions. Despite claims by certain members that our concerns would not be taken on board, an appeals system has been put in place, there is a temporary reduction of the registration charge and there will also be an exemption in regard to planning permission. In other words, the Minister has delivered on the undertakings he made to the committee. The decision to charge a registration fee of €5 instead of €50 for the first three months was a particularly welcome initiative which will encourage people to engage with the process. Perhaps the Minister might consider applying similar initiatives in other areas.

There is still an argument for some type of grants scheme to assist individuals in difficult financial circumstances who find themselves suddenly facing a large outlay for improvement works. I very much welcome the Minister's indication that he will consider such a mechanism. We should provide some security for people in that situation.

There has been much talk of an urban-rural divide in regard to this issue. Although I come from an urban area, I would like to think I have solidarity with my rural fellows. Not everybody is aware that up to 70% of all taxation is raised in urban areas. As the Minister pointed out, €50 million is being spent on efforts to ensure a clean water supply in Connemara and Galway. There is also the equalisation fund administered through local authorities. An equalisation of taxation is essential and a vital component of the solidarity required in a civilised society. It is not helpful to make statements that serve only to create tensions between urban and rural dwellers. We are all citizens of the country. The provisions of this legislation are reasonable and the amendments thereto very beneficial. I commend the Minister and his officials for their efforts in this regard.

I wish to respond to some of the remarks made by previous speakers. In accordance with my undertaking to the committee, we published the draft regulations on 1 March. They were set out in a four or five-page document which people received for consultation. Perhaps they did not realise what it was.

That is not the case. The document before us contains the draft regulations.

I ask the Deputy to allow the Minister to continue.

Submissions were accepted until 30 March. There was some confusion in this regard as a result of certain Deputies claiming on radio programmes that the registration process would commence at that time. As we made clear, 30 March was merely the cut-off point for the receipt of submissions, of which we ultimately received 165. If one has any respect for the people who made these submissions, one will take sufficient time to examine them. That is what we did and we have made some changes as a result. I take the opportunity to thank those who made submissions.

What is more, I gave an undertaking to the committee to return to it before the registration process began. I am fulfilling that commitment today and have informed members of what has happened in the meantime in terms of taking on board certain suggestions. The registration process will now proceed, as it is obliged to do under the terms of the court ruling and the performance standards we agreed with the European Commission and the Environmental Protection Agency. A reasonable timeframe has been allowed to ready us for the commencement of the scheme.

In regard to the registration fee, the legislation allows for a charge of "up to €50". In other words, discretion on this point was always available to me. The Scottish experience in this regard, where something similar was done, is instructive. The court judgment was particularly strong on the need for a comprehensive register of septic tanks.

On Deputy Kevin Humphreys's suggestion regarding grant assistance, I agree there could be hard cases, as there are under any scheme. That is why I have not ruled out the possibility of financial assistance in such cases.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. Following the many hours of discussion we have had on this legislation, I welcome the Minister's comments today, particularly his indication that there will be no charge for inspections. That was a source of concern for many, but people should look at the legislation as an opportunity. In general, owners are anxious to resolve any difficulty with their septic tanks. They may be discouraged, however, by concerns regarding planning permission, surveys and so on. The Minister has stated clearly today that planning permission will not be required in respect of improvement works that are necessary to bring septic tanks up to standard. We must all bear in mind that the State is paying €26,000 a day to the European Union, or a lump sum fine of €4 million, which is simply unacceptable in these difficult times.

Coming from an agricultural background, I am aware that the words "inspector" and "inspection" can put the fear of God into people in rural and farming communities. We all know that individual inspectors can be as different as chalk and cheese. One might have a good experience with a particular inspector but find that another seems determined to put people to the pin of their collar. There must be some equilibrium and uniformity in inspections. It is vital that there be a right of appeal where a person believes he or she has been unfairly treated by an inspector. The Minister originally indicated that inspections would take place primarily in high risk areas. Does that remain the case?

Has the Department learned the lessons of the household charge in regard to the collection of fees? Will the process be simpler for those seeking to register a septic tank? Will An Post, for example, have a role to play? We can all point to instances where people sought to make a payment, but it was not processed properly for one reason or another. The bureaucracy levels involved in paying the household charge alienated and upset many. Where a person is willing to make a payment, he or she should be accommodated in so far as it is possible to do so.

I add my voice to the calls for a grants scheme. In this age of austerity people are experiencing enormous difficulty in accessing any form of credit. Credit unions are starved of funds and limited in what they can give, while the banks are effectively not lending. I hope the Minister will take on board the difficulties some people will encounter in seeking to finance necessary improvement works.

It is important to reiterate that the agricultural community will meet the same treatment under these regulations as it does under the terms of the nitrates regulations. People can do their own desludging and spread on their own land, but they cannot do the same for anybody else unless they have a licence to do so. However, the farming community is exempt from these regulations because the requirements are already in place under a different set of regulations.

It is vital that we compile a comprehensive register of septic tanks, but the inspections regime will be limited as to number and will take a risk-based approach along the lines of what is already in place in law under the 2007 Act. That will continue to be the case, as I outlined in previous contributions at the committee. As I confirmed, an appeals mechanism is in place.

In terms of payment methods, in the case of the household charge, we had no database and had to start from scratch. We are making significant progress in that regard. There will be several registration options in respect of septic tanks. One can register online at www.protectourwater.ie. Forms will be available in local authority offices, citizens information centres and libraries, which should be posted to: Domestic Wastewater Systems Registration, PO Box 12204, Dublin 1. Alternatively, people can pay by cash or cheque at their local authority office.

Can one give an IOU?

I do not know about that. There are sufficient mechanisms in place through the local authorities, which will be informing people about how they should proceed by means of placing advertisements in local media and distributing leaflets. Local authorities have the relevant knowledge and expertise and are aware of the location of most septic tanks. They will be taking the lead role in respect of the administration of the scheme.

The agricultural exemption applies only in respect of desludging. If it is necessary to desludge in order to deal with a problem which arose on foot of an inspection, the members of a farming community can deal with this by proceeding to desludge and then spreading on their lands.

Am I allowed to contribute at this point or has my opportunity already passed?

No, we are on a cycle. We are taking three speakers at a time.

The Minister referred to the fact that the country is in serious financial difficulties. Similarly, people are experiencing such difficulties. There are those who are not going to be able to afford to upgrade. If the Minister is hoping that it will all be all right in the end, that will not be the case. As a previous speaker stated, people who do not have the money to upgrade and who approach their bank or credit union for a loan will not be facilitated. It is a great idea to upgrade septic tanks and ensure that they meet the highest possible standards. Buying a Ferrari would also be a good idea but, unfortunately, I do not have the money to do so. What is proposed is not going to work unless funding is provided.

Reference has been made to the urban-rural divide. People would probably classify me as a rural Deputy. However, I live in a town. When we had a difficulty with our waste treatment plant, no one came knocking on my door threatening me to stump up money. The State provided the funding and the upgrade was carried out. Some of the money required was, however, provided by people who live on a country lane a couple of miles from my house. It is not really a case of an urban-rural divide, it is more the case that if one lives in a town one will be all right and one will not be threatened with the imposition of sanctions at some point. There is money available to upgrade sewage treatment systems. Why not spend that money on this project?

It would be a great achievement for the Minister if all septic tanks were upgraded during his term of office. However, it will not happen unless people are given financial assistance. I accept that he is doing his best but people are not going to be able to afford to pay for upgrades. That is my only concern. I have no difficulty with the high standards required. I am sure An Taisce will come back and ram it down people's throats if they do not meet the standards. It is a matter of money. From where will the funding come?

I thought the Deputy had been a friend to An Taisce at one point.

Sometimes I am a friend to it.

I recall him being a very strong supporter of An Taisce in the past. The National Federation of Group Water Schemes is very helpful to all our communities in the context of dealing with the matters under discussion. It has agreed to work with us in respect of disseminating information relating to good practice and the appropriate way in which people can deal with these issues. Clearly, people are quite worried with regard to what is proposed. It is often the case that their concerns are unnecessary and they are driven into a state of worry by those who make outlandish comments about things that are not going to happen at all. I refer here to some of the matters we have already covered during the course of these deliberations. People are not entitled to pollute the water sources of their neighbours, their village or their town.

Who said they were doing that? To whom is the Minister talking in respect of this matter? Nobody wants that to happen and the Minister should stop repeating what he is saying in this regard. We are getting away from the important point.

It happened in Galway, where there was a serious problem in respect of cryptosporidium. One part of the problem in that regard was the potential for septic tanks to become contaminated.

May I comment on that matter?

I will allow the Deputy to come back in later.

We have a court judgment and there is evidence of a potential contamination in County Galway in the past. The latter proved very serious for householders in the affected parts of the county because they had to spend a great deal of money buying bottled water in their local supermarkets. It also had a very serious impact on inward investment and jobs in the area. I do not believe responsible citizens in Roscommon, Galway, Kilkenny and elsewhere would want to see a recurrence of the events to which I refer.

This has nothing to do with what I said. I referred to people who are worried about the cost of upgrading their tanks. We cannot drink the water in my home town at present because it is contaminated with cryptosporidium. No one wants to pollute the water supply. Will the Minister move on from that matter and explain how people are going to pay for what is proposed?

I do not believe Deputy Luke ‘Ming' Flanagan has been listening very carefully to the debate. This is his first time being present during the deliberations on this matter. There is not going to be an onerous responsibility on people in this regard.

Why does the Minister have to engage in personal attacks? Can he not just answer the question?

The Deputy does not live too far from Cavan.

If the Minister indicates how we are going to pay for it, I will leave the meeting and his job will be done.

Deputy Luke ‘Ming' Flanagan asked a question and he should allow the Minister to answer it.

The Minister has answered every other question put to him.

I reiterate that an onerous financial responsibility is not going to be placed on people. The question the Deputy is asking is, therefore, hypothetical.

I welcome the Minister and thank him for bringing forward the regulations. It is way past time this was done. The European directive should have been implemented years ago. However, that did not happen.

I come from a rural area but I live in Dublin. I know that people in rural areas and others with septic tanks on their properties want to rest assured that their water sources, supplies, etc., are safe. I am sure they will welcome what is happening. There has been great deal of scaremongering, hype and innuendo. Elected representatives should be sure of the facts before they make statements. If they are not fully conversant with the facts, they should not say anything to frighten people.

I welcome the fact that there will not be a charge for inspections. Another falsehood that was circulated was to the effect that people would be charged for registration and then charged for inspections. The Minister has continually stated that there will not be a charge for inspections. This fact is also outlined in the regulations and I have heard people refer to it on radio, etc. I thank the Minister for clarifying the position.

I received a copy of the draft regulations and I am sure everyone else did so too. In addition, a press release was issued in respect of the public consultation. In such circumstances, I do not believe the Minister can be accused of hiding behind anything.

I want to ensure that there will not be any new standards. The Minister has stated on numerous occasions that this will be the case but I want to double check. He said earlier "I can assure households, as part of the inspection process, that all options to resolve the problem will be explored so that the most appropriate and cost-effective solution can be identified". That is a most important statement. We do not any old engineer going to someone's home and informing them that A, B, C and D will have to be done and that they will be obliged to pay him for the job. I presume that when the most appropriate and cost-effective solution is identified, the relevant householder will be informed of what needs to be done to fix the problem rather than being obliged to engage the services of a third party who will state what has to be done and then impose a charge to carry out the work.

I welcome the fact that the charge for registration will remain at €5 up to 28 September next. That is welcome because it will provide people with an incentive to register.

It would be foolhardy to believe that every person in the country who has a septic tank could be given grant aid, particularly without first identifying what are the problems that might exist. Research must be carried out. People continually making promises in respect of grants got this country into the trouble in which it now finds itself. We must ensure that assessments are done. The Minister has assured those who might require assistance in order to resolve any problems that a review will be carried out. It is not possible to promise to provide grants willy-nilly. I compliment the Minister on the way he his dealing with this aspect of the matter.

The Minister stated that the Local Government Management Agency developed the online facility on a shared basis. I compliment that agency on the work it has done in this regard. Under the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2012, the Local Government Management Services Board is being dissolved. I presume these are two different agencies. We do not want the Local Government Management Agency to be dissolved, particularly as it is responsible for developing the computer services on which local authorities depend in this regard. We need to ensure that agency will remain in place and that it will continue to provide such support for the local authorities, as somebody must be responsible in this regard.

I am trying to give everybody five minutes to contribute and I must ask the Senator to conclude.

I want the Minister to confirm that any work that has to be done will be exempt from planning. I support the money in respect of Clifden being from Clifden.

There is an assumption by a number of speakers that all inspections will bring about failure but that is not the basis point from which I approach this issue. I expect some of them will pass. If there are so many failures currently, then we have a very serious problem with our ground water and, if that is the case, the people concerned are already not in compliance with the 2007 Act.

On a point of charity, it is estimated there are 400,000-----

There are roughly 500,000 systems.

There are half a million wastewater treatment systems across the country. I will not call them septic tanks; they are wastewater treatment systems that are not supervised in the way municipal wastewater treatment systems would be. Therefore, some level of inspection is required.

Some of these systems have been built in different periods. Before I bring in further speakers, and I want to wrap up proceedings at 5 p.m., I want to clarify if the Minister is indicating that the possibility of a grant scheme being put in place for remedial works to be carried out to wastewater treatment systems is under consideration and that it is not being ruled out.

I thank the Minister for that.

I have always said that. An inspection is the basis that will provide the best advice and recommendations on how to deal with a problem. We do not know the extent of the problem until we carry out inspections. Not every tank will be inspected; I was successful in getting that approved by the European Commission. I am sure every situation is different. Therefore, the solution, pragmatically, as Senator Keane pointed out, will be different in respect of each septic tank but the fundamental way in which it will be resolved is by desludging. People can take the opportunity to check the by-laws in regard to Cavan County Council, which go back to 2004, and 3,000 inspections were carried out. That is the basis on which we will be examining how we will solve many of the problems that may arise. It is a matter for the householder to select a contractor if a problem arises, but it is a matter for the local authority and the EPA to train staff to make sure that there is consistency in regard to how each inspection is carried out in each area.

The next speaker is Senator Ó Murchú to be followed by Senator Niall Collins.

We do not have any choice but to do what is right by the environment and to fulfil our commitments and obligations in the context of Europe. That is a given. It is a pity we ever fell foul in that context. A clean environment gives us a quality of life and it also has an economic advantage, particularly in the area of tourism. Ireland has had a very good name in that regard. On the other hand, what Deputy ‘Ming' Flanagan said is right and the Minister does not have any control over this, but it is an issue that must be considered. People in rural Ireland will be subject to this inspection and hopefully the result will be come out right for them, but if it does not, addressing the problem will be a concern. Some people almost cannot afford to buy a loaf such is the seriousness of their economic situation. We will now rightly ask them to correct whatever wrong may exist with their private sewerage system but that is not sufficient in itself. If they are not able to pay, some indication or signal should be given to these people in the early stages that grant aid will be available because, if not, we will only depress them further.

I salute Cavan and it was ahead of the posse in many ways, but what was done there is a limited yardstick by which to judge all the other counties. It seems to be suggested that because there was a low rate of failure in Cavan that the position will be similar in other counties. That suggestion cannot be considered to be scientifically correct. The Minister and his officials might do a little more checking in that regard.

The implementation of the regulations will be very important. If the tone adopted by the Minister is adopted by those who will implement them, that will be helpful. However, it does not always happen like that. Officials often believe that they must do what is laid down, it must be on their CV and they must deliver. I hope the Minister will be able to get a message across that, given the current economic circumstances, it is expected that officials will deal with this matter in a sensitive and compassionate way.

There is also the aspect of neighbour looking at neighbour in this regard. I will not go into the urban-rural divide argument but if one lives in rural Ireland the idea of a traditional village is an extended traditional village which can cover four or five miles and everybody knows everything about everyone. It is like in the past that if a person did not get a dog licence and a dog was barking in that person's yard, everyone knew that person did not have a dog licence. The same will be the position in this case. There must be some way of ensuring that people who already have their backs to the wall will be protected in this regard.

The Minister seems to be satisfied that his regulations will comply with the European court rulings, some of which seem to be pretty difficult to comply with. He might reiterate that we are fully in compliance. The worst thing that could happen is that we would bring in these regulations on top of the frustration that already exists and subsequently find we have further problems. I am sure the Minister has checked this out but if would be helpful if he could confirm that we are in compliance.

Although the Minister has not exactly said this in his statement, can we take it that the penalty will be lifted if we do what is right? He suggested that a penalty of €4 million could apply plus a major sum on a daily basis. If we do not have to pay that, is there a possibility the Minister could calculate what the daily figures would be, add that amount to the €4 million and put that sum into a fund to help people who have difficulties?

On Deputy Kevin Humphreys's point on the rural urban divide, I do not want to bring that into the discussion as I do not believe it was ever helpful. The Minister might double check there is not an anomaly in regard to rural Ireland in context of sewerage systems as against the systems in urban Ireland because no anomaly should exist. By getting rid of that type of an anomaly we would put people's minds at ease. As a fellow Oireachtas Member, I know that much of Deputy Mattie McGrath's frustration comes from what he is hearing on the ground in Tipperary. Let us get rid of the frustration because the bottom line is that we have to do what is right. The Minister might respond to those points.

I thank the Senator for his constructive comments. The Cavan experience is the only one we have to go by in terms of what happens in regard to wastewaster treatment systems of this nature. I am sure it was very unusual for the local authority to agree to introduce by-laws. They had difficulties in terms of their lakes and they were probably forced to do something about it. Some 3,000 inspections later, the experience there is the only yardstick we have to judge as to what happens arising from a regime in terms of drumlin soils, which would be very different from the soils in south Tipperary and more difficult soils with which to deal. The Cavan experience gave us a great insight in how we could deal with these issues in negotiating with the European Commission. Obviously, if it was successful in not being part of the European Court of Justice judgment, we were able to argue that the Cavan solution and its by-laws should be sufficient to deal with the issue nationally. The European Commission accepted that argument which was very helpful in giving us a risk-based approach. People will have time to resolve a problem that arises. If an inspector finds a problem, the person concerned will not be asked to solve it overnight. People will have a reasonable period in which to deal with any problem signalled following an inspection. I agree that tone is important. People will be trained to ensure consistency and quality and I hope a pragmatic view will be taken on how we can help individuals to help themselves if they have a difficulty. I refer, in particular, to elderly persons living alone who might worry about such matters.

The only body which can bring us back to the European Court of Justice is the European Commission. We have been working closely with it every step of the way in order to ensure the regulations deal with its concerns and the judgment of the European Court of Justice. I am satisfied that is the case. One way or the other, we are likely to receive a lump sum fine of €3.6 million. The legal advice is that we have neglected this regime for so long that we will have to pay a lump sum fine. We are arguing a case in our defence not to have to pay daily fines of €26,000, backdated to July 2011, a significant additional financial burden we are seeking to overcome.

I never introduced anomalies between urban and rural areas. When times were good, we had an opportunity to ensure some of the concerns expressed about the systems were addressed by spending more money in rural areas. We spent €1.5 billion over ten years, which is a lot of money. It is money we do not now have. Nevertheless, when one looks at it in proportion to what was spent in urban areas, there is a significant difference. There were serious problems in rural and urban areas. There are still serious problems in rural areas and I wish I had more money to do more in, for example, the Chairman's part of County Tipperary or any other county. We are working through the water services investment programme as best we can. I hope that in the next few years Irish Water will be able to attract private investment into the system to accentuate the programme we have introduced. The programme has been successful wherever money has been allocated for urban and rural wastewater treatment systems. I wish we had more money to prioritise schemes in County Tipperary and elsewhere, but we do not.

I welcome the Minister and wish to respond on a few issues he has outlined. I welcome the agreement on groundwater systems with the European Commission. In recent months huge outrage has been caused around the country by giving false information to people. The Minister has clarified that the fee will be €5 for the next three months and he has also explained the system of registration and inspections. In my area and many other constituencies some people who should have known better, including those who should have solved the problems we have had in the country for the past 14 to 15 years, went on a crusade and many were concerned as a result. We must protect streams, rivers and lakes from pollution. The Minister has outlined how important this is to the future of the country in terms of tourism, recreation, agriculture and the food sector. If we are to ensure there will be no pollution, we must implement the regulations that have been outlined. It is important that people are aware that they can go the local authority to pay the €5 in cash or by other means.

An issue was highlighted previously about local authorities being responsible for some of the pollution caused in various parts of the country. This was highlighted in the review that took place in County Cavan where the approach has been successful and more than 3,000 inspections have taken place. I do not know the level of problems identified, but they were not significant by comparison with what we had been led to believe was the case. It is only right and proper that we should move forward in the way the Minister has outlined. I hope it will lead to the elimination of many of the problems in rural areas. Those of us who represent rural areas are aware that people are anxious to ensure they do not cause pollution. They all have a vested interest in ensuring that is the case for themselves personally and their neighbours. It is vitally important that the position has been clarified. I thank the Minister for the clarification provided.

I apologise for not being present earlier; I was on active service in the Dáil Chamber and missed the start of the meeting as a result. I apologise and ask for forbearance if I repeat any of the questions previously asked.

Will a public information campaign be rolled out to inform the public about the registration process and will leaflets be distributed to each house on the matter? That is the best form of providing public information and increasing awareness.

Will those who will physically carry out the inspections be existing Environmental Protection Agency and local authority staff or will a panel of subcontractors, so to speak, be drawn up by the EPA or each local authority? Will the Minister outline the standards which will apply?

I am sorry; I did not catch the last question.

What standards will apply in carrying out inspections?

The Minister indicated that there would be a risk-based assessment. How will the areas and houses to be inspected be identified? The Chairman alluded to 500,000 wastewater treatment systems. Will consideration be given to the quantum of treatment systems already subject to a maintenance agreement? I refer to new wastewater treatment systems as opposed to the conventional concrete septic tank. A large number of systems require annual maintenance and inspection, under contract, by their manufacturer or supplier.

I have had a chance to peruse the Minister's statement. In regard to planning permission for remediation works, during the debate he gave a commitment that this would be catered for through the planning code. Will he enlighten me as to what he has in mind?

I note that the statutory instrument specifies that desludging will be carried out by a contractor authorised under the waste management collection permit regulations dating from 2007. An issue will arise in that regard in terms of what one could categorise as vulnerable persons, those of limited means, particularly in isolated parts of the country who will be asked to desludge their systems, for which they will be quoted prohibitive prices by those with a permit. The committee must examine having in place a price control mechanism and the introduction of a ceiling price. I accept the open and free market will regulate it and that competition will force down the price, but people living in isolated areas will be quoted extraordinarily high prices for desludging. This is a matter we must examine.

Reference was made to the famous urban-rural divide. Will a registration process be introduced for urban households connected to municipal wastewater treatment systems?

I thank the Minister and his officials for the information they provided. As somebody who lives in a rural area and who has a septic tank, I welcome the plans to regulate this area because this is a public health issue. We have had many childish antics in recent months from people advocating law breaking etc. and taking advantage of the misinformation circulated as a result of which people were made fearful. It is welcome that we now have the facts in front of us and can address all of those issues using the facts rather than listening to that misinformation.

I welcome the public information references in the document. Will the Minister consider, as part of his public information campaign, giving information to the regional radio stations because a huge number of people in the regions listen to them? They are a great means of getting out information, as are the regional newspapers. Will that be part of the Minister's public information campaign as well as putting leaflets in people's letter-boxes?

Will the waste collectors be able to obtain permits through the local authorities? If people want somebody to carry out this work will there be a register that they can check to be certain that the person they are asking to do it will be able to do the work?

The dialogue taking place in terms of setting rural people against urban people infuriates me. We live together on this island. Urban people have benefits. Rural people have benefits. If there is a higher concentration of people living in urban areas the chances are they are paying a lot of taxes. They get services because of that but many of those taxes spill over into rural Ireland as well. We must think about ourselves as a nation of people rather than where we live. I appeal to people not to enter into that urban-rural divide because there are enough divisions as it is, and we have many issues to solve in this country without the kind of silly beggar stuff we are seeing and listening to all of the time.

I welcome the information we have been given and hope the process will be straightforward and streamlined. The discount for the next three months will be a very good incentive, and it is a good opportunity for people to register. The window of opportunity to do that until 1 February is welcome as it gives people plenty of time in that regard.

Deputy McLoughlin correctly mentioned the difficulties we have with urban wastewater treatment systems. We are working through a programme under the 2011-12 wastewater treatment investment programme. We are spending €380 million this year. We would like to spend more to deal with this and I am aware local authorities have some difficulties in certain parts of the country, including in the Deputy's, in terms of taking up some finance because the local contribution may not be as readily available as it was in the past, but we are doing our best to get through the systems. I have noticed that until now local authorities were sending in applications for the purpose of dealing with development potential in the future, apart from dealing with the problems of the urban wastewater treatment system. We have asked local authorities, where there is a public health risk from sewage flowing into streams, rivers and lakes, to revise their plans to deal with that particular problem, and deal with the tank, rather than dealing with the pipe network or the future development potential. Hopefully, that will help us overcome some of the difficulties highlighted in the state of the environment report published yesterday by the Environmental Protection Agency.

In regard to Cavan, even after 3,000 inspections 11% was the failure rate. From my inquiries in Cavan there was nothing onerous in regard to overcoming some difficulties people experienced, which is what Deputy Flanagan might have been concerned about earlier, and the level of expenditure that might be required. There were very few cases where there was a serious problem, even thought there was an 11% failure rate. Many people passed, and I would regard it as being difficult enough to overcome some of the percolation issues in Cavan soil types. It is similar to Leitrim where there are serious difficulties also, as the Deputy is aware.

Compliant people have nothing to fear. People will know whether they are compliant and if they are not compliant, even at this stage, they are not in tune with the law of 2007. People will have looked at their septic tanks - I hope they found them - and made sure they are in working order. If they are not in working order I am sure they would quickly know about it and would have known long before now.

Deputy Niall Collins is right that there is a need for a public information campaign. Local authorities have been asked to ensure that everybody is aware of their obligations by way of leaflet distribution, messages on local radio and through their staff. Deputy Corcoran Kennedy spoke on the same issue. Existing local authority staff in the environment sections will be trained in terms of their obligations, the information that should be put out and what they and the EPA should be saying to the public.

Anyone who has a maintenance agreement has nothing to fear. The maintenance agreement is ensuring they are in full compliance either in terms of the manufacturer's standard for the system or good practice in terms of doing what they need to do to ensure there is no pollution or damage to public health or the environment. The new planning code will be part of regulations that I will sign to ensure there will be no need for planning applications to be lodged, and to deal with issues that Deputy Ó Cuív raised earlier in regard to habitats also.

I agree with the Deputy that there is always a problem that people will be ripped off when dealing with these matters but the local authority will have a register of contractors and I would hope, as part of that permitting arrangement, that all local authorities - Offaly County Council is now the lead authority - will have a standardised code under which we could expect that within certain bands there would not be any opportunity to exploit rural people to the extent that some unscrupulous contractors would try to do. I do not expect that will happen; I certainly hope it will not. The National Federation of Group Water Schemes is helping us with community initiatives. There might be certain areas with scattered settlement patterns and it will help us with community initiatives to deal with some of the remote areas the Deputy rightly pointed out might be a problem.

Will the Deputy clarify his question about connections to public schemes?

Will there be a follow on scheme through which urban households will have to register with their local authority if they are connected to a public wastewater treatment system?

No. There are no plans to do that at the moment.

Will the panel of inspectors be-----

They are all local authority staff.

To reply to Deputy Corcoran Kennedy, local authority staff will be involved in the public information campaign. The register of contractors will be available through the local authority. They will be registered, and people can get the information by telephone, from the website or in writing. It will be operated on a permitting basis, just as we do for any waste system, through Offaly County Council.

Before I call on the Minister to make his concluding remarks Deputy Ó Cuív has indicated he wishes to ask a number of supplementary questions.

First, for clarification on the cryptosporidium issue, which is naturally occurring in terms of animals as well as humans, the failure in Galway related to one of the treatment plants in Galway city. The others eliminated the cryptosporidium. In terms of what happened, there was a four hour period in which excessive cryptosporidium got into the system. All modern wastewater treatment systems have a protection against cryptosporidium because there is no other way of guaranteeing it will not get into the water.

Second, it was never established from where the cryptosporidium came. Some people claimed it came from Oughterard. Others claimed that the cause was the flooding in Galway, which flooded septic tanks that previously operated perfectly but nobody knows where it came from and therefore using that as proof that there was a consistent failure in septic tanks in Galway is incorrect.

Consider the statement made by a number of speakers on the urban-rural divide. The urban-rural divide, if it exists, should be eliminated. Wishing it away and saying we should not talk about it when it does exist is fair on neither urban nor rural areas. Deputy Kevin Humphreys put forward an extraordinary theory. He stated that because one area pays more tax, it is entitled to more services. That creates an urban-urban divide because Dublin 4, where he represents, doubtlessly pays-----

Deputy Kevin Humphreys stated there are areas in the country that pay more tax than others and that they compensate other areas.

May I finish my point? The Deputy stated urban people pay 69% of tax, justifying their receipt of more services. Within the city, some areas pay much more tax than others. I would not go along with the idea that Tallaght, Ballymun or other less well-off parts of the city, which probably receive a higher proportion of social welfare and pay fewer taxes than other areas, are less entitled to services. As far as I am concerned, one pays tax according to one's means. Everybody present on the same salary pays the same tax-----

The Deputy is misquoting Deputy Kevin Humphreys.

The Deputy is. Deputy Kevin Humphreys is not present so I ask Deputy Ó Cuív to refer only to the comments of members in the committee room. Deputy Humphreys' point refers to the equity of the matter. In some areas, there is congestion of taxes, for want of a better phrase. The Deputy's fundamental point is that taxation gathered in specific regions is being spent in other regions.

That is the exact point I am making.

What the Deputy is doing-----

The very principle of taxation is that one taxes people according to their ability to pay and spends money according to people's requirements. Irrespective of whether one pays tax, one is entitled to services.

What the Deputy is doing is very unprofessional and unparliamentary; he is interpreting Deputy Kevin Humphreys' statement although he is not in the room. I ask him to desist from doing so.

Irrespective of any other Deputy's belief, I believe one should tax people according to their salaries or the amount of petrol they buy, for example, and spend the revenue according to people's needs, irrespective of where they are and their personal circumstances. Therefore, citizens in general should have equal access to services, irrespective of the tax they pay or the amount of tax paid in one region as opposed to another. The concept of the transfer of tax revenue is a fundamental part of the social solidarity of a nation. Therefore, we all happily pay taxes that support less well-off areas.

We call it equalisation.

Unfortunately, a principle that is accepted in an urban area, that is, that every person in an urban area is entitled-----

The Deputy is raising supplementary points more suited to a Second Stage debate.

It is important that these points be made.

The Deputy may consider them important but I must conclude this meeting at 5 p.m. I ask the Deputy to prioritise what he regards as important.

It is right that if a system in an urban area requires an upgrade costing €270 million, the area should get it. Equally, irrespective of the cost, the same principle should apply in rural areas. I will stick by that principle because it is fundamental to the debate we have had.

I ask the Deputy to conclude shortly because I want to allow Senator Landy to contribute.

Different committees operate very differently.

Deputy Ó Cuív is not a regular attendee at this one so I would not expect him to understand how it works. I ask him to conclude.

I will conclude in one second.

Allegations have been made that there were wild statements. Any statement I made was based on the court judgment, which is certainly worth reading because it lays down very clearly what the court considers to be the standard. Where planning permission is being given for house extensions, the planners are applying the 2009 code.

That is for new buildings.

I am referring to extensions to or the refurbishment of existing houses. I can provide the Minister with a copy of the documentation backing up my argument. I provided it previously for this committee.

If a system totally fails on inspection because a person has a soak-away that is not functioning, thereby causing ponding that should not occur, for example, will the owner be required to install a standard percolation area?

Deputy, I must move on to Senator Landy.

The Minister has made some progress and I am delighted about that.

That is great.

I said there were nine points on my sheet. I said at many meetings around the country-----

They were not on the Deputy's from the word "go".

They were on mine. I said that if they were dealt with one by one-----

The Deputy is like a lollipop person.

-----I would accept it and take it in good faith. There are unanswered questions arising today, particularly in view of the judgment.

The most fundamental issue has not been addressed, that is, that the maintenance and upgrade costs incurred by rural people are not being funded by the State, as happens for everybody on a mains system. Until this issue is addressed, there will still be a huge lacuna in the system. Unfortunately, that lacuna has not yet been addressed by the Minister. I do not refer to addressing the matter on a means-tested basis because it is not a question of means testing the towns and cities on a universal basis. This has not yet been addressed by the Minister.

Ultimately, as one who lives by the best lakes in the country, who has always been passionate about keeping our waters clean and who believes we were correct to spend €4 billion under the previous Government on addressing the main sources of pollution - urban municipal wastewater systems - I believe the upgrades should be carried out to the highest standard and that, out of the €1.5 billion, the Minister should pay for it.

The Deputy is out of time. I call Senator Landy.

I will endeavour to be very quick and not to be thrown out like my colleague from south Tipperary.

I have two questions for the Minister. I welcome what he said today. Last week in the Seanad, I raised the issue of the reduced registration fee of €5. The Minister clarified the matter today, which I welcome.

With regard to inspectors' reports, who will the inspectors be?

The Minister clarified that and it is on the record. They will be local authority staff.

Deputy Ó Cuív make much play over the fact that there will not be any support for those who must do remediation work. In the Minister's speech, he indicated there may be some kind of grant scheme. Could he elaborate on this a little?

That has been covered also. I ask the Minister to make his closing statement.

What I am saying to Deputy Ó Cuív is that there are site-specific solutions. We have been at pains to negotiate with the European Commission a pragmatic solution to a very difficult issue.

The solution I inherited, as the Deputy knows, involved universal inspection of every septic tank to comply with the 2009 code of practice.

That is not true. The Minister is the greatest person for twisting the truth.

I can produce the document.

The Minister should do so. Can I have the document?

The Minister is making his concluding remarks and the meeting is to come to an end.

The Minister will discover there was never such a memorandum.

Deputy Ó Cuív is the most disruptive member I have ever had before this committee, with the exception of the one I threw out this afternoon.

A bully like the other fellow.

Deputy Ó Cuív is very anxious that we have an open-ended sum of money.

Will Deputy Corcoran Kennedy withdraw her statement that Deputy Mattie McGrath is a bully? This is not a playground.

I did not hear that comment.

Absolutely; I withdraw the remark. I am sorry I have offended the sensibilities of Deputy Luke 'Ming' Flanagan.

I thank the Deputy.

I am interested in Deputy Ó Cuív's view that the maintenance and other costs associated with owners' responsibility for septic tanks should be borne by the State.

It happens in the city.

What happens if one has a problem with a sewerage pipe in one's garden in Dublin 4? One must pay for it oneself. I do not know how companies in Dublin like Drain Doctor would make a living otherwise.

May I explain to the Minister? A pipe extends from my house to my septic tank and I do not expect the Minister to do anything about that, as that is my problem.

What happens if something happens to the pipe?

In the house in which I grew up, there is a pipe from the house to the margin of the land out to the road. I do not expect anyone to do anything about that.

No, that is right.

However, I do know that in the city, the maintenance of the treatment system is maintained at public expense.

I am glad that-----

I must state, as someone who has experienced this and who deals with constituents, the householder is responsible for the sewerage system beyond the boundary of his or her property until it actually meets with the main sewerage system.

In our case, it meets at a boundary.

In other words, householders are not only responsible within their property boundaries.

Yes, in respect of the pipe.

Moreover, it does not even require an inspection because one's neighbours will tell one that it is stinking.

I make this point to clarify matters-----

It is the same arrangement-----

Please, Deputy.

Chairman, on a point of order-----

There is no point of order.

There are no points of order before a joint committee. I invite the Minister to conclude.

Will the Chairman ask Deputy Ó Cuív to stop interrupting the Minister? I was allowed 30 seconds but the Deputy already has been in for two minutes since the Minister started.

We have been here before but we will conclude now. I thank the Minister for bringing things to an end.

I confirm to Senator Landy that local authority staff will be those who are involved in the inspections. They will be trained by the Environmental Protection Agency and local authority staff to what hopefully will be a proper standard of quality, as well as consistency, notwithstanding human nature being what it is. Second, I have not ruled out a grant scheme. While I wish to ascertain the level of assistance that may be needed in the future, I can only so do arising from the inspections, which will only begin in 2013.

I will conclude by thanking all Members, including the Chairman and the joint committee staff, for their patience during the passage of this legislation and the regulations that I now have put in place. I consider them to be practical and pragmatic and they will deal with the issues of protecting groundwater, as well as the issues pertaining to job creation in rural areas. In the absence of good quality water, we will be unable to have the necessary enterprise support that is needed for the environment, for health and for job creation in rural areas. In addition, this will ensure that Ireland's is complying with the European Court of Justice judgment, rather than forking out fines. I am prepared to put in place a system that will improve groundwater quality, rather than simply spending taxpayers' money in a fruitless exercise of paying fines to the European Commission.

That brings this evening's proceedings to a conclusion. I thank the Minister, Deputy Hogan, and his departmental officials, namely, Mr. Ivan Grimes and Mr. Tony Keogh, for assisting members in their deliberations today.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.55 p.m. until 2.15 p.m. on Tuesday, 3 July 2012.
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