I thank Mr. Ahmet Berki Dibek, the Turkish ambassador, for attending. All the members understand that the purpose of this meeting is to have an exchange of views with the ambassador. The procedure is very simple. I will ask the ambassador to make a presentation, which will be followed by questions by the members of the committee.
Visit of Turkish Ambassador.
Mr. Ahmet Berki Dibek
It is a pleasure for me to have this opportunity to address the committee, although members of the committee will be travelling to Turkey where they will note our recent developments.
I intend to share with the committee some reflections on one of the foremost priorities of Turkey, namely, our membership of the European Union. However, before trying to do so, perhaps it would be helpful if I touched upon the present state of the Turkish society and economy. As one knows, Ataturk, the founder of the Turkish Republic, was determined to create a modern, forward-looking country. His achievements were innumerable and the great changes he initiated cannot be condensed into a single speech. The great historian, Arnold Toynbee, assessed Ataturk's accomplishments as follows: "It was as if, in our western world, the Renaissance, the Reformation and the Secularist Revolution at the end of the seventeenth century, the French Revolution and the Industrial Revolution had all been telescoped into a single lifetime and made compulsory by law."
Today, Turkey is a secular state. Democracy is deeply rooted in Turkish society. With the Turkish experience, one of the familiar clichés asserted by political scientists that democracy cannot take root in non-Judeo-Christian cultures became an indefensible generalisation. The Turkish experience in building a modern, secular and effective democracy is very pertinent today.
We do not claim to have a perfect system — no country could do so — but we rightly regard ourselves as a pioneering country in the Islamic world. Equally, we have been stressing our European vocation acquired in the course of many centuries of intensive and continuous interaction with Europe. As one of the 20 largest economies of the world, Turkey has a GNP of around $300 billion and a trade volume of approximately $150 billion. The Turkish economy is most vibrant and capable of sustaining high growth rates. Turkey has a young, well-educated and well-motivated population.
Turkey has a large market serving a nation of 67 million in a country 11 times the size of Ireland. Turkish enterprise is reaching out and our private sector has established a strong presence far beyond our boundaries. Turkish businessmen are building world-class factories, shopping centres, airports, harbours and housing in many corners of the world.
Turkey is one of the seven countries in the world that are self-sufficient in food. With further irrigation, upon the completion of the south-eastern Anatolia project, Turkey is destined to become a major food supplier. Let me touch upon this project briefly. It is a €40 billion public project involving many dams and hydroelectric power plants to harness the potential of the upper reaches of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers and to irrigate the fertile plains that lie between them. The heart of the project, the Ataturk Dam, is the sixth largest rock filled dam in the world and was completed in 1992. Last year, it accounted for approximately 20% of Turkey's electricity production. The entire project sets out to add 1.7 million hectares to the irrigated area of Turkey, an area equivalent to more than the half the size of Belgium. Turkey is also poised to serve as a major energy distribution centre in this century due to its proximity to the richest oil and gas deposits of the world. In that regard, the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan crude oil and natural gas pipelines are under construction.
Turkey has shown a close interest in the European integration process from the very beginning. While relations can be traced to earlier years, the conclusion in 1963 of the association agreement in Ankara is generally taken as the point of departure. Turkey applied to the EU for membership in 1987. The Council endorsed the avis on Turkey in 1990. In line with the avis, lengthy negotiations were conducted and the customs union between EU and Turkey came into being in 1996. Thus, Turkey became the first, and so far the only, non-member country to enter into a customs union with the EU and it was materialised without any substantial transfer of funds from the EU.
The reaffirmation of Turkey's candidature for accession at the Helsinki European Council in December 1999 ushered in a new era in the relations between Turkey and the EU. Helsinki was, in a way, proof of Turkish society's European vocation and vindication of its constant quest over the past centuries for modernity and progress. However, Helsinki was also good news for the EU. By embracing Turkey, with its unique cultural characteristics, the EU member states were in fact expressing their readiness to proceed for integration at a truly universal level. In other words, post-Helsinki, the EU became philosophically more complete and with a firmer claim for leadership in international affairs.
At the Copenhagen European Council of December 2002, the EU took decisions of historic significance concerning its next enlargement. As regards Turkey, it has determined: "If the European Council in December 2004, on the basis of a report and a recommendation from the Commission, decides that Turkey fulfils the Copenhagen political criteria, the European Union will open accession negotiations with Turkey without delay." Hence Turkey has passed through a dramatic transformation process and has taken a number of important steps to meet the Copenhagen criteria.
The most important among these is the major review of the constitution. Some 34 articles of the Turkish constitution have been amended. These amendments covers a wide range of issues such as improving human rights, strengthening the rule of law and restructuring of democratic institutions. This was only the initial step of the reform process which was soon followed by complementary legislative and administrative measures to ensure their implementation. The Turkish Parliament also adopted new civil and penal codes and introduced improvements to the freedom of association and the right to assembly, as well as gender equality and child protection. The scope of freedom of thought and expression is further extended.
On 6 October 2004, the European Commission published its reports, whereby the success of the reforms undertaken by Turkey has been recognised and acknowledged. The Commission has determined that Turkey has sufficiently met the Copenhagen criteria and made a clear recommendation to the member states to open accession negotiations with Turkey. We consider the Commission's recommendation as an historic step. We also hope that the member states, in line with their decisions previously taken, put into effect without delay the Commission's recommendation to open negotiations on 17 December 2004. We are expecting an impartial and even-handed decision. No discrimination should be made against Turkey in its negotiating process. The negotiations have one objective — to prepare the accession agreement. The only issue to be negotiated between Turkey and the EU is full membership. We do not have a plan B in this process.
Our people are demanding more prosperity and insisting on efficiency, transparency and accountability in the governance of their country. They want to see Turkish democracy firmly safeguarded, the rule of law fully assured and its secularism protected. They want to live in a more peaceful and prosperous setting, based on tolerance, understanding and respect. In a nutshell, membership will serve to their interests and there is no doubt that they will be strong advocates of the ideals and the principles of the European Union.
We have been debating ways and means of making our democracy work better and further raising our standards in every field. The Turkish people, motivated by prospective membership of the EU, are becoming more and more demanding and assertive in initiating change and progress. This is the hallmark of a healthy society and we owe the EU for these positive developments. We believe that EU membership will unlock Turkey's huge potential in every field. As one would expect, the European Union will also draw a whole range of benefits from Turkey's membership in the interconnected areas of foreign policy, security, economy and culture.
Turkey, as the closest member state to the Middle East, Balkans and Caucasus will, with her geographical location and historical links, provide a bridge, through which the EU will be able to exert its influence in these regions. In order for the EU to be a prominent actor in these regions and assist in achieving stability, it needs Turkey. Moreover, the principal elements of our foreign policy towards these regions have traditionally converged with those of the Union. Turkey's common ties with the central Asian republics such as religion, language and culture will constitute important tools for the EU to enlarge its scope of influence within this region. It would not be an overstatement to say that Turkey's membership of the EU will perform a critical role in protecting the Union's strategic interests regarding energy resources.
Turkey has the second largest army in NATO after the United States. Turkey's defence and security posture are springs of benefits which will be open to the EU and boost the Union's effectiveness in the international sphere. Today, as the world is shaken by the resurgence of ultra-nationalism and religious fundamentalism, our membership becomes ever more important. The EU and Turkey have a common interest in preserving peace and stability in the areas adjacent to Turkey.
Turkey's historical experience, cultural wealth and contemporary characteristics are unique. When Turkey takes its place among the EU members, the Union will be transformed into a truly multi-cultural and multi-religious geography. The Union will be more capable of promoting understanding and harmony among cultures and will avoid the reappearance of deeply-rooted racial and religious prejudices. Turkey's membership will certainly enrich European identity and vice versa.
We should not forget that cultures in their diversity complement and enrich one another. We should also not forget that we have a responsibility to embrace and value our diversities and to promote and uphold the universal values we share. Turkey believes in the attainability of this objective. Turkish society itself is a living testimony to the proposition that Islam, democracy and modernity are compatible. Our secular society is one in which civilisations do not clash, but where they embrace.
I would like to underline once again that Turkey wants and has chosen to become a member of the EU and has the will and the capacity to do so. I thank the committee for its attention.
I welcome the ambassador to the committee and thank him for coming before us. He clearly articulated his enthusiasm and that of Turkey for joining the European Union. An ageing Europe will benefit from and be enriched by a young Turkey in the years ahead. The ambassador referred to the impartial and open-minded discussions that he hopes will take place next month and I am confident that will be the case.
I have listened carefully in recent weeks to the views and concerns expressed about Turkish involvement in the EU. Women are concerned about the Turkish tradition of female illiteracy, crimes of honour and forced marriages. Europe left such things behind generations ago. A further concern is the link between Islam and Government. Under Ataturk, a republic was created and the state and religion were separated but a number of Islamic institutions remain under state control. That is not unusual in Europe — it happens in Britain — but concern has been voiced on it.
Mr. Berki Dibek
Turkish women benefited most from the modernisation process in Turkey. Female emancipation is one of Ataturk's most brilliant humanitarian victories. Political equality in terms of the right to vote and eligibility to run for election was accepted in 1930, earlier than in many other countries. Gender equality is guaranteed under the law and women hold 30% of professional positions in the workforce, a percentage that is on a par with many western countries. The urban labour force participation rate of university educated women is 78% and 14% of all women in the workforce have college degrees. Around 42% of all university students are women, indicating that the number of women in professional occupations will further increase, and women make up 34% of university professors, on a par with the United States.
Female NGOs played an important role in the preparation of the new civil and penal codes. Heavier penalties have been enacted for crimes of honour. There are still forced marriages in Turkish society but there is a lower percentage than in other Islamic societies. It is a rural custom that rarely happens in cities.
We have a secular system of government and Islam has no say in it. Religion is internalised in individuals. Islamic, Christian and Jewish schools are not permitted in Turkey.
I admire the ambassador's courage and self-confidence when he comes here without assistance. It is impressive. Regrettably, I will not be able to go to Turkey on this occasion but I have been there before.
There is a view that I share, however, that the opponents of the European Union — the United States and some eurosceptics — want to see a broad union that will not be able to act cohesively. The Economist is a fervent advocate of Turkish membership because it believes the European Union should not aspire to be anything more than a large free trade area. What type of European Union does Turkey want to join — a loose trade federation or a coherent, integrated world player that will not be a super-state but which could be a super-influence?
Mr. Berki Dibek
We actively participated in the discussions at the convention on the European constitutional treaty and we welcome the successful result. In the convention, we voiced our opinions, saying that we support a strong and integrated EU. We support the qualified majority voting system. On the composition and size of the Commission, functionality and equality among members are important and we supported the compromise reached. We support a strong EU.
The US is entitled to its own views but there is another perspective. The US has a global perception of a dialogue between Islamic and western countries. It supports Turkey's secular system and thinks that Turkey is proof that Islam and democracy are compatible. America, therefore, supports Turkey's application for membership of the European Union. A Turkey that is strongly anchored to the west benefits the entire world. I do not want to comment on the future shape of the EU.
I welcome the ambassador. He referred to the expansion of Turkey's economic base. I have seen it at first hand in Cork city where one of Turkey's major construction companies completed part of the city ring road 12 months ahead of schedule.
There is much apprehension concerning Turkey's application for membership of the EU. It is felt that the EU is expanding too rapidly and would not be able to accommodate the shock to the system that would result from Turkish accession. The Kurds in northern Iraq are concerned that Turkey may not have respect for international borders. Following the US invasion, they feared a Turkish invasion of the Kurdish region in northern Iraq. I would also be concerned if there is a lack of respect for international borders on Turkey's part. Will the ambassador gives his views concerning the Kurds in Turkish territory and northern Iraq?
Turkey has the second largest army in NATO. Will the ambassador give more detail on the link between the army and the civil administration? Has there been an erosion of the military's role in the broadcasting authority, education boards and other public bodies?
The anticipated accession talks with the EU will take place at intergovernmental level. How will Turkey approach these talks considering its refusal to recognise Cyprus? Turkey also indicated an erosion of those penal codes and other laws seen as anti-democratic, such as the code on criminal procedure and legislation dealing with judicial police. How is Turkey dealing with these issues that are a precondition to accession talks?
Mr. Berki Dibek
Developments in Iraq are a serious concern for Turkey. We have no hidden agenda towards Iraq. We want a democratic and prosperous Iraq as our neighbour and to preserve its political unity and territorial integrity. Our approach towards Iraq is shaped by a policy embracing all Iraqis. We make no distinction between Iraq's ethnic groups. It is our sincere wish that the Iraqi Interim Government should overcome the difficulties facing it. There is no hidden agenda regarding the position of the Kurds in northern Iraq. We want them to be part of the democratic Iraq and participate effectively in its democratic institutions. The future of Kirkuk is a sensitive issue in that regard. If there are designs to ascribe Kirkuk to a specific ethnic group, it could cause some problems for the Iraqis. Our kinsmen, the Turkomans, constitute the third largest group in Iraq. We believe that they can make a positive contribution to Iraq's future.
The Turkish military has played an important role in the modernisation process of the state which no one can underestimate. Our modernisation process began in the 19th century, led by the civil bureaucracy. The Turkish military strongly supports Turkey's EU accession process. With the recent reforms, civil and military relations have been brought in line with European standards as confirmed by the report of the Commission. The Turkish military did not resist but provided its positive contribution to these reforms. There is a new civilian general secretary of the Turkish national security council. All military funds are taken under the umbrella of the budget. The military accounts are open to the Turkish High Court of Audits.
The issue of Cyprus is a long lingering problem. It began in 1963 and since 1964 the UN peacekeeping force, UNFICYP, has been stationed there. It should be kept in mind that Cyprus is the common home of the Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots alike who should share and have an equal say over the island's destiny. The parameters of resolution on Cyprus came into existence as a result of four decades of UN-sponsored negotiations. The Annan plan was the result of these negotiations between the parties in Cyprus. It offered carefully balanced and workable solutions to the issues. The Turkish Cypriots negotiated the plan and displayed their good will to engage in a give-and-take process to reach a lasting settlement.
Turkish Cypriots heeded the calls of the international community and approved the Annan plan in a referendum on 24 April 2004, despite the many sacrifices entailed. However, the Greek Cypriots opted for no settlement and are not ready to share a common future on the basis of partnership and equality with Turkish Cypriots. After the referendum, the Turkish Cypriots were praised but the situation there has been fundamentally altered. It necessitates a new approach to the solution of the Cyprus issue, yet the UN Secretary General's report, calling on the international community to eliminate restrictions and barriers isolating the Turkish Cypriots, was not endorsed by the Security Council. Despite the European Commission's and European Council's strongly worded statements, nothing concrete has happened for the Turkish Cypriots. There were so many promises but the world has failed to reach out to the Turkish Cypriots. They are still out there waiting in the cold. They are very disappointed. The coalition government which supported the negotiations and convinced the people to vote "Yes" in the referendum has lost its political support and now there is a political crisis in Cyprus.
Cyprus does not form part of the Copenhagen criteria. In 1999 we received a letter from the president of the Council, Mr. Lipponen, accompanying the Helsinki decision and pointing out that Cyprus would not constitute a criterion for Turkey. Recently Commissioner Verheugenalso stated that recognition of the Cypriot republic is not a prerequisite for Turkey to start accession negotiations. The Commission's recommendation contained six laws and the parliament has already enacted two of them. It will enact the remaining four before 17 December.
Is one of those laws article 305 of the penal code, which specifies anti-national activities? The explanatory memorandum cited only two examples of this: demands for recognition of the Armenian genocide and support for the withdrawal of Turkish troops from Cyprus, which is punishable by ten years in prison, or 15 for publishers and journalists. Is that one of the laws to be amended or repealed by 17 December? Will Turkey officially recognise all existing EU states, by opening diplomatic relations with them and access to ports and airspace? I refer in particular to the Republic of Cyprus.
What steps are being taken to recognise the Kurdish people as a national minority making up between 25% and 30% of the population of Turkey and, for instance, to recognise their language officially? Are steps being taken to give official recognition to political parties representing the Kurds? I welcome the fact that Turkey is proceeding to become an EU member albeit it is premature and negotiations should not be opened until the Copenhagen criteria are met and the occupation of Cyprus is ended. Mr. Dibek's response on this point misrepresented the position on what has happened and is happening there.
Mr. Berki Dibek
The Turkish press claims this is the reasoning behind the articles and the Turkish penal code but as I have seen nothing official on that I cannot respond to that question. It may be unofficially debated but there has been no official statement on this. The Deputy said the Kurdish minority was 25% or 30% of the Turkish population. This is a slight exaggeration. No estimation of the Kurdish population has exceeded 20%. Less than 20% of the Kurdish population lives in Turkey.
Meeting the Copenhagen criteria fully is a dynamic process. No country will be able to meet them. It is a prerequisite to meet the political criteria sufficiently before the accession talks start and the Commission advised the Council that Turkey has sufficiently met the criteria and the accession talks can start. The negotiation process will prepare Turkey for full membership and we will focus on the imperfections of our democracy and further upgrade our implementation record and our democratic institutions.
With regard to serving Greek Cypriot ships, our customs union does not cover the services sector but we have already extended it to the new member states of the European Union.
The ambassador mentioned extending the customs union to ten new member states, including Cyprus I suppose. Vessels flying Cypriot flags are forbidden to dock in certain ports in Turkey and Cypriot flights are forbidden to fly over Turkish territory, even though Turkish flights frequently fly over Cypriot territory. The occupation — although the ambassador may not call it that — of part of Cyprus took place after the coup when Turkey planned to reinstate the constitution. That was done but the Turks are still there with 35,000 troops, a phenomenal number of troops on such a small island.
The Turkish policy is akin to the Israeli policy for the Palestinians, namely bringing in Turkish settlers to occupy lands owned by Greek Cypriots. If there is any settlement there will be a very difficult outcome. Deputy Ó Snodaigh mentioned the role of Article 305 about which I have read a little in The Irish Times, to the effect that the Turkish justice commission provided two examples. I do not know what that commission is, or whether it is a Turkish organisation.
In 1987 the European Parliament recognised the killing of 1.5 million Armenians and in 2001 the French National Assembly voted for a law recognising the Armenian genocide. Mr Erdogan said when he was in Paris that historians would deal with this and there was no need to emphasise it. Perhaps there is not at this stage, unless one is Armenian.
Is there any possibility of Turkey entering the European Union without resolving the Cyprus problem? It will probably have to withdraw from that before the accession occurs — perhaps not. I am simply putting these questions.
Mr. Berki Dibek
The Annan plan provided the Greek Cypriots with opportunities to minimise the Turkish military presence to a symbolic number, if it was accepted at the referendum. The number of the so-called settlers to whom the Senator refers would be reduced to an agreed level which was to the best of my recollection 45,000. A serious percentage of land would have been returned to the Greek Cypriots and a considerable amount of property restored to them. The United Cyprus Republic would have been formed and spoken with one voice in international fora and have participated fully in the EU decision-making process, but unfortunately it was rejected by the Greek Cypriots. Cyprus would have spoken with one voice in international fora and would have participated fully in the EU decision-making process, but unfortunately it was rejected by the Greek Cypriots.
The word "occupation" was used. Turkey is not accused in any UN Security Council resolution of occupying Cyprus. We are there according to the rights given to us by the international agreements. The plan was rejected and we had to consider how to deal with that. We must approach the issue with a mindset of peaceful co-habitation.
As the Deputy said, I have no idea about the reasoning behind the judicial commission of the Turkish Grand National Assembly under the third and fifth articles of the Turkish penal code. I have been reading about this in the press but have seen nothing official on that matter.
Regarding Armenia, there are two key documents. One is the declaration of independence of Armenia and the other is the constitution of Armenia. In the declaration of independence, Armenia referred to Turkey's eastern Anatolian regions as western Armenia. In the constitution of Armenia, Mount Ararat, which we call Mount Are and is situated in Turkey, is described as a part of the coat of arms of Armenia. Armenia does not recognise the common border between Turkey and Armenia as established by the Kars and Gumru treaties of 1921.
The Armenians accuse us of having committed a so-called genocide. The figures differ from one source to another but we have proposed the establishment of a joint commission of historians to open up the Turkish archives and the Armenian archives in Yerevan and Boston, with research to be carried out. That was refused. We believe that history should be researched by historians but a joint commission of historians has been turned down by the Armenians. Armenia also occupies 20% of the Azerbaijani territory despite the codes of the UN Security Council.
We are trying to deal with this issue in an open-minded manner. For instance, Turkey as a founding state of the Black Sea economic co-operation organisation has invited Armenia to join. Turkey was the original proponent of the idea in the 1980s. Our Foreign Minister consults with his counterparts in Armenia and Azerbaijan from time to time. The three of them meet and discuss issues in the margins of the international meetings and conferences.
According to some figures, there are now some 40,000 Armenians illegally working in Turkey. Chartered flights continue on what is known as the H50 air corridor between Istanbul and Armenia. Armenian and Turkish Jews also meet, with Armenians participating in the festivals in the eastern provinces of Turkey. Last month, the Armenian state choir and the philharmonic orchestra of Armenia were in Istanbul where they performed for Turkish audiences. It is a complicated issue.
I thank the ambassador for attending, for answering our questions as best he can and for the positive way in which he has addressed us this afternoon.
Regarding the issue of Cyprus raised by Deputy Ó Snodaigh and Senator Lydon, no doubt the big threat from the Turkish point of view is that Cyprus is an EU member state and can veto Turkey's membership, or could veto the decision to commence negotiations. One thing we have learned from the Irish peace process is that there are two sides to every story and no percentage in getting into the blame game. The Annan plan is dead. As it was democratically rejected by the Greek Cypriots, it is a question of where to go from there.
Senator Lydon asked a number of questions regarding Cyprus. I will ask others. Will Turkey cease to veto Cyprus's accession to a number of regional and international organisations? That is an important issue for Turkey to address. Regarding free movement of labour, no doubt some people are concerned that there could be mass emigration to the other EU member states in due course. Would Turkey be disappointed if there were restrictions on the free movement of labour if and when Turkey accedes to the European Union? I know there are precedents for that.
The ambassador said that Turkey is a secular state and a democracy. In my view there are moderate and fundamentalist Muslims. There is concern in the west at the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. Is that an issue in Turkey and, if so, is the country concerned with it? How does it deal with it?
Mr. Berki Dibek
Regarding the veto of Cyprus's membership, I will read from the text I have with me regarding Turkey's political and legal position.
We thought that the unilateral accession of the Greek Cypriot side to the EU contravened the 1959 agreements and 1960 treaties on Cyprus because these instruments contain provisions precluding membership of Cyprus in international political and economic unions to which Turkey and Greece do not both belong. These treaties placed a special responsibility on Turkey along with Greece and the United Kingdom to prevent such an eventuality. According therefore to the legal texts and the international treaties, Cyprus could not become a member of organisations to which Turkey and Greece do not belong. That is the main point I can make in this area.
Regarding free circulation of labour, Turkey will not create a big problem for the EU. Foreign direct investment in Turkey is currently exceptionally low, and many independent research institutes have suggested that if we start accession negotiations, this will have a very positive effect on the Turkish economy, which will mean less unemployment and less emigration to the European countries. As we saw from the last enlargement, almost all of the 15 EU members decided to bring some kind of transition periods to the newcomers regarding free movement of labour. It would, therefore, be possible to apply such a transitional period to Turkey, which could be agreed during the accession negotiations. There is no need to over-emphasise Turkey's population in that regard. Some say that the young population will be a solution to the ageing population of the European Union in the long run. It is not right to express fear.
When it comes to the fear of Islam, are Europeans afraid of Turkey, or will it be a handicap for Turkey when it comes to joining the European Union? I would like to quote the European Parliament on that issue.
No one has a monopoly on these universal values of democracy, rule of law, human and minority rights, and freedoms of religion and conscience — values which can perfectly well be accepted and defended by a country where the majority is Muslim. The European Parliament believes, therefore, there are no objections in principle to Turkey's European Union membership.
Islam belongs to the family of Abrahamic faiths, together with Judaism and Christianity. With regard to their philosophies, moral values and visions of life there are not many differences between those religions. I therefore believe that it would be a great mistake to divide the world into the west and the rest. No moral or political grounds justify such an approach.
It is not possible for the EU to hide behind the high walls of a castle; that is not wise either. The alternative is to reach out and embrace Islam through the concept of the unity of human civilisation. If that concept is adopted, it will also facilitate the modernisation process in Islamic countries. We are trying to convince other member states in the Organisation of the Islamic Conference to modernise. If the concept of the unity of human civilisation is adopted by us all, it will facilitate the task of Islamic countries in their modernisation efforts.
We are not afraid in that regard. We are a secular country, and our modernisation process started in the 19th century at the same time as that of Japan — 1839 to be precise. We have therefore been modernising our country for a long time, and Islam does not constitute a threat to our regime. We see ourselves as living testimony that Islam and democracy are compatible.
I thank the ambassador for attending. Many of the questions regarding Cyprus that I wished to ask him have already been answered. I have only one question, regarding the Kurdish population. There are UN guiding principles on internal displacement. The Turkish Government has been criticised for failing to reach an agreement with the United Nations and the European Union regarding partnerships to facilitate the return of displaced Kurds. Our own briefing document refers to 380,000 people in that category. I will be going on the trip to Turkey and I look forward to finding out more about that. Perhaps the ambassador might tell us what is preventing that partnership from being created.
The second matter, which has not been touched on, except perhaps a little by Deputy Haughey, is the economy. I wonder how Turkey will adapt to the economic requirements of membership. Going by our briefing document, Turkey has a very serious problem with foreign debt. I do not expect the ambassador to tell me how Turkey will solve it, but perhaps he might tell us how it intends to get over that problem to satisfy the requirements of membership.
I hope that when we go there we will talk to trades union representatives, women's groups and farmers' groups. Does the Turkish agriculture sector fear the implications of reforms of the Common Agricultural Policy? What is the state of debate on that? I am sure there is a significant Turkish agriculture sector.
Mr. Berki Dibek
In the reform process, we have, as the Deputy mentioned, started a dialogue with international organisations, including the European Commission, regarding internally displaced persons. We have also enacted a law to compensate terror victims. The Deputy referred to 380,000. My figure is that, as of July 2004, 121,450 people, constituting more than one third of the displaced persons, had returned to their villages.
That is still a large number. We are relying on the Department of Foreign Affairs.
Mr. Berki Dibek
Yes, and two thirds of them are still waiting to return. We have recognised the need to improve the return to village and rehabilitation project, as it is known. We will continue to make every effort in that regard, but it is primarily a matter of financial resources. The law on compensating the victims of terror also provided a remedy for the grievances caused by events beginning in the 1980s. We have also started a relationship with the University of Hacetepe, which is carrying out a survey with the representatives of the UN and the EU, with the participation of NGOs. We are trying to figure out how we might find remedies to the displacement issue. It is not an easy task. When members travel to Turkey, they will get better technical answers to that question, but we are doing our best, and we will rectify the wrongs of the past.
What about foreign debt?
Mr. Berki Dibek
The Turkish economy grew by 8% in 2002 and 6% in 2003. Growth in the first six months of this year was 13.5%. It is therefore growing fast.
It states in my document that there was 3.6% growth in 2004.
Mr. Berki Dibek
No, it is 13.5%, for the first six months, but by the end of the year it is estimated to be over 10%. We are doing fine in that regard. Export levels are continuing to break records and the consumer and wholesale price indices are decreasing. We will probably have a single digit rate of inflation by the end of the year.
As of January we will drop six zeros of our currency, which means that the economy will be stable. It is not easy to drop zeros from the currency. We also implement great fiscal discipline and maintain a 6% primary surplus in our budget to pay off the national debt. In the past two years we have achieved this 6% of surplus in our budget. As the committee knows we are implementing an austerity programme with the International Monetary Fund which has strict control over the financial figures.
We believe that if the accession negotiations begin next year this will be a further boost to the Turkish economy. At the moment Turkey is the second fastest developing economy, after China, the experts say. For instance, 17 million tourists visited Turkey last year, generating close to €15 million in revenue from that sector. I would say the economy is performing well but people who are more expert than I am in this area can confirm this.
Will the ambassador give his views on the Common Agricultural Policy?
Mr. Berki Dibek
Agriculture is a difficult issue. We have a large rural population. Although the rate is decreasing, it is still the highest rural population in Europe. This is a significant cause of unemployment because rural people gravitate towards the cities as the economy grows. New jobs have to be generated in the process of urbanisation and this is not easy.
As regards the Common Agricultural Policy, of course we do not have a customs union in agricultural goods. There are difficulties involved here which will present challenges in the negotiation process. Nonetheless, we have a dynamic economy. We have, in particular, the South Eastern Anatolia Project, which I mentioned previously in my official statement. When that comes into effect, then the agricultural sector will grow further.
Is the Deputy asking how we will adapt our agricultural sector to the EU?
The reform programme of the Common Agricultural Policy, which has been implemented over the last four or five years, has required Irish farmers to adapt on foot of lengthy negotiations. I wonder how that will affect Turkey.
Mr. Berki Dibek
I am sure that sacrifices will have to be made. Agriculture will not be an easy sector for Turkey, but the difficulties will have to be overcome.
I welcome the ambassador. I want to make a point and to ask a couple of questions. We have discussed Cyprus at considerable length. However, I was particularly struck by the ambassador's description of it as being a question between Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots. While that is true, by and large, I am sure he will agree that it is also complicated by the fact that significant numbers of settlers have come from Turkey since 1973, as well as by the presence of the Turkish military still, in some numbers. I am not sure I agree with Deputy Haughey that the Annan plan is dead. Clearly, there will have to be some redrawing of the map, but the basic structure is still right, I believe. We all acknowledge the generally positive approach of the ambassador's government, and that of the Turkish Cypriot government of the time, to the issue and we seek reassurance that this will continue.
I have two questions. Turkey has some continuing difficulties with Iraq and the Kurdish population there and with Armenia, as Senator Lydon described. I gather there is also some difficulty with Syria and we are well aware of the problems in Cyprus. Whatever about the Copenhagen criteria with which we have dealt in some detail, we need assurances that Turkey is committed towards recognising and maintaining the territorial integrity of neighbouring states. There was a point, several months ago, when it appeared that some Turkish troops had entered northern Iraq. It did not amount to a wholescale invasion, but it was a time of considerable concern. I find it inconceivable that the European Union could find itself in a position where one of its member states, even in such circumstances, was seeking to occupy part of a neighbouring country. We would need reassurance on that point.
I would like to make a general political comment to the ambassador, if I may. In a sense we are discussing the various criteria on which the EU as a whole has asked Turkey to state its position. In so far as it goes, that is fair enough. The real difficulty, however, from my personal viewpoint, is that I support the creation of a political union in Europe on the basis of the European social model, our common history and so on. I believe that in order to do that we need to command the support of our citizens. In order to give that allegiance and support, our citizens need to feel they have a certain amount in common with the people who are also to form part of that political union. The ambassador spoke earlier about a union of human civilisations, or whatever, as a form of "united nations". I am not in favour of a united nations in Europe. I am in favour of a union that is capable of commanding the support and allegiance of its citizens. I am afraid that if we make it more diffuse and heterogeneous, then it becomes impossible to do that. I am talking in a sense for myself, but also for a large number of people in the EU.
I wonder whether the ambassador's citizens feel that they are European. Do people in Anatolia and on the borders of Iraq feel themselves to be European? Would they want to give their allegiance to a European political union or do they see it as a means to prosperity and of bedding down democracy? Obviously, those are good things in themselves, which I am sure the ambassador and I both support. However, they do not require membership of the European Union. Does the ambassador understand my difficulties?
Mr. Berki Dibek
Yes, I do. Ataturk's dictum to us was, "Peace at home, and peace abroad", and that is the principle that guides our foreign policy towards the regions around us. It has been clear and consistent every since Ataturk dictated our foreign policy. We have always advocated the resolution of disputes through peaceful means and dialogue. We always try to contribute to the peaceful settlement of outstanding disputes.
We liquidated an empire after the First World War and we could easily have become a revisionist country, but we never adopted such a stance. We always defended, if you like, the status quo. Turkish foreign policy always favours peace and stability and we have done our best to achieve that objective. We have troops in Bosnia and Kosovo and we will be working again for UNICEF in Afghanistan in 2005. We have already served as a lead nation for it there last year under the auspices of the International Narcotic Control Board, and we will be repeating this exercise next year. We have always participated in peacemaking and peacekeeping efforts.
As regards Turkish public opinion, there is strong support for the EU membership process. Close to 80% of Turkish people support Turkey's application for EU membership. The Turkish people feel they are European. What defines a European? Is it a people who share a geographical area, a culture, a common history or religion? We believe the consciousness of being a European emanates not from geographical boundaries, religion, or political history but from common values — universal values. Europe is an ideal that depends on universal values, which are not the monopoly of any group.
The European Union is a model for integrating a diversity of cultures to a common and contemporary identity. There are approximately 20 million Muslims living in Europe. Europe is already a multicultural society. We believe that Europe is ready to commit itself to a union of diverse races, cultures and religions, bound together by common rules and regulations. I do not think multiculturalism will be a handicap for Europe.
The general public in the European Union is not well informed on Turkey's aspirations and this gives rise to problems. Turkey has reformed its systems and carried out a programme of modernisation. The European Commission in its recommendation to the Council deemed it necessary to have a third pillar in order to strengthen political and cultural dialogue between the EU member states and Turkey. Political and cultural dialogue must be established and people brought together. It is incumbent not only on Turkey but on European governments to inform their citizens on the assets that Turkey will bring to the EU. As I mentioned, the only approach to take is the unity of civilisation and shared values. We believe that Europe is ready to accept that Islam will be the religion of the majority.
I thank His Excellency, Mr. Berki Dibek, for appearing before the committee. We look forward to travelling to Turkey.
As Mr. Berki Dibek is aware, the Irish electorate has had some very strong opinions about accession. What would he say to an Irish person, who did not have a great grasp of European affairs, who asked him why Ireland should support the accession of Turkey?
Mr. Berki Dibek
I find the Irish public very open-minded and I believe it welcomes the fact that Turkey will start negotiations to join the EU. Every year close to 60,000 Irish tourists travel to Turkey and they know the country well. Of course, the embassy must work hard to get the support of the Irish public. There are scares in member states that Turkey will suck the European Union of funds. Turkey is aware that the funds in the European Union have diminished and it is not the same as it used to be.
What would Mr. Berki Dibek say to an Irish farmer?
Mr. Berki Dibek
Let me reiterate that we have achieved the customs union without the transfer of much funds from the European Union. People said it would be impossible for Turkey to compete with European industry, but it has happened and now almost half of our trade is with the European Union. The process of negotiations will take a long time and in due course Turkey will be ready. As the idea of the negotiation process is to prepare the accession state for membership, Turkey will become a member when its economy is ready. I do not think there is any need to fear Turkish membership. I think the Irish public will be ready to welcome Turkey, when the time comes for Turkey to become a member state.
I thank His Excellency, the ambassador, Mr. Berki Dibek, and appreciate the help he has given us in the past three weeks. We look forward to visiting Turkey and again thank him for his help in arranging our visit.
Mr. Berki Dibek
I thank the Chairman for the invitation to speak to this committee.
I propose we go into private session. Is that agreed? Agreed.
The joint committee went into private session at 3.30 p.m. and adjourned at 3.50 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 18 November 2004.