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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 25 Oct 2005

Animal Remedies Regulations: Presentation.

I welcome Mr. Seamus Healy and Mr. Richard Healy from the Department of Agriculture and Food. This meeting was scheduled as a result of issues which I raised at last week's meeting. During the past few weeks I have received a number of representations from farmers in Waterford on the proposed animal medicines regulations. Having researched the issue a little, I have a number of concerns about the response of and direction given by the Department of Agriculture and Food. Other members and I are seeking clarification of how we will deal with the regulations in terms of the EU committee's response to them during the next year and the position that response will leave us.

Following Mr. Healy's presentation, other members and I would like to raise a number of issues. Perhaps he will tell the joint committee why we have not adopted a similar approach to that of the United Kingdom? Why have we disregarded, to a certain extent, the Competition Authority's comments, particularly about the cost to farmers? My main concern is that we will not follow the United Kingdom's example. If the position is not regularised on both sides of the Border, we could end up with a black market in animal medicines. What would be the situation if we were to proceed as proposed and leave the matter to be dealt with by a select EU committee? What recourse would Ireland have in the future? If we do not adopt a similar position to that of the United Kingdom, are we leaving ourselves in a position where we will not have any come-back in the future?

I now invite Mr. Healy to make a short presentation, following which we will have a question and answer session. Members will be aware that the position has changed in the past couple of days in that since arranging this meeting, the Minister has made an announcement with regard to intramammaries, in particular, and made it clear there will be a delay until 1 January 2007. I do not wish to be political but when the Opposition motion on this matter was laid before the House last week, the Minister stated it had no substance. If that was so, why has her position shifted in the past three or four days? There does not appear to be much clarity as to how we should proceed on the matter in the next two years.

I have received many representations on the issue from my constituents in Waterford. When I spoke to the Minister last Wednesday night, she pointed out that she had an extremely busy agenda this week. Given the short notice of the invitation, I agreed members would understand the reason she was not able to attend the meeting. I welcome the departmental officials and invite Mr. Healy to make his presentation.

I will not be engaging in political comment. Members will be aware that the forthcoming regulations dealing with veterinary medicines were the subject of a detailed motion and counter motion during Private Members' business in the Dáil last week. In the course of that debate the Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Coughlan, made a comprehensive statement on the background and approach being adopted to the regulations. Consequently, apart from dealing with some of the issues raised by the Chairman, I do not propose to make a detailed statement on those aspects covered by the Minister. Subject to the committee's agreement, I propose to make a short contribution mainly on developments since the Dáil debate. After that we will attempt to deal with questions members may have. Copies of the Minister's statement from last Tuesday are available if members wish to peruse it.

Veterinary medicines in Ireland are regulated by the Animal Remedies Act 1993 and regulations made thereunder in 1996, 1998 and 2002. That legislation transposed what was then EU legislation and it also included national provisions. In recent years a major review was undertaken of the national arrangements in the regulations and, following a major review, EU legislation was amended with the adoption of Directive 2004/28. Apart from those two issues, the Irish Medicines Board also published a report on intramammary controls in December 1999. The proposed new regulations arise from the foregoing and are designed to adapt national legislation to make the provisions more operational and to transpose the EU directive into Irish law.

The proposed regulations were drawn up after comprehensive consultations with the relevant stakeholders and other interested parties. They took into account developments in veterinary medicine and consumer demands for effective regulation in food related areas. Issues, such as concerns about antimicrobial resistance, have come more to the fore. Maintaining effective regulation in the area of veterinary medicines entails keeping pace with and accommodating these and other evolving considerations in a manner which can be reconciled with the practical realities of farming and food production and processing. One of the objectives of the EU directive was to address concerns about the continuing competitiveness of the EU pharmaceutical industry and the loss of veterinary treatments. Hence the directive and the national implementing regulations include a range of measures designed to address these problems, as well as comprehensively updating the licensing process and the regulatory regime

The consultation process here was intensified recently following publication of the draft regulations in August. The consultation process involved meetings with the statutory Animal Remedies Consultative Committee and a range of stakeholders. On completion of that consultation process, the Minister confirmed in a statement on 22 October that she was finalising the regulations following her consideration of the views put forward. In her statement she said that in finalising the measures, her overall objective was to put in place a workable system for the distribution of medicines within the parameters of the EU directive which, at the same time, protects public and animal health, facilitates our food export trade and minimises costs for producers. She pointed out in particular that while the directive required that all medicines for food producing animals should be made subject to prescription, the directive also contained a mechanism for categories of medicines to be excluded from that requirement. The EU must adopt a decision on the relevant exemption criteria before 1 January 2007. The directive also provides that pending those decisions, existing national prescription arrangements can remain in place and the Minister indicated she was proceeding on that basis. That means the regulations will not require any current medicines to be made subject to prescription as of now and farmers can continue for the time being to get such medicines on the same basis as at present.

As regards intramammaries, the Minister said it was clear there was no prospect of intramammaries that contain antibiotics qualifying for exemption at EU level and, consequently, such medicines must become subject to prescription. However, in order to allow for an orderly transition to the new arrangements, the Irish Medicines Board will manage the reclassification process with a view to having it completed for all products by 1 January 2007. This new deadline will also allow further time to finalise arrangements for prescriptions to be written in the context of mastitis control programmes implemented by co-operatives and will avoid the prescription requirement applying to different products from varying dates.

The Minister confirmed that she intended to avail of the exemption clause in the directive to the maximum extent possible and would retain most of the existing prescription and distribution arrangements until the issue of the exemption criteria was resolved at EU level. As existing products "off-prescription" will continue to be available as such, the Minister stated it was not necessary at this stage to decide whether persons other than veterinary practitioners should be permitted to write prescriptions for certain medicines such as wormers and certain vaccines for which prescriptions were not required currently. She indicated that the issue would be reviewed, in particular, the qualifications needed by non-veterinarians and the categories of products that may be prescribed by them in the light of the outcome of the EU decision on the exemption criteria with a view to ensuring competition in the marketplace while at the same time protecting public and animal health.

The suggestion that we should make provision in the regulations at this stage to permit qualified professionals other than veterinarians to write prescription is at best premature. In essence, we would be throwing in the towel before the negotiations on the exemption criteria started. It is not practical to make a decision to extend the range of prescribers until we know what additional medicines will become prescription-only. It would be unwise to provide at this stage for prescriptions to be written by non-veterinarians because to do so would oblige us to designate as prescription medicines some of the medicines currently "off-prescription". More importantly, it would completely undermine our negotiating position on the exemption criteria if we were to unilaterally recategorise non-prescription medicines. Deferring the decision on whether it will be necessary to extend the range of prescribers until the exemption criteria issue is resolved is the best approach to take in the circumstances I have outlined.

The Minister's statement confirmed also that the regulations would include a number of measures to minimise costs to farmers and to foster effective competition in the supply of veterinary medicines. These include the removal of the requirement for mandatory farm visits by the practitioners prior to writing a prescription, the extension of the life of a prescription from the current figure of 31 days up to six months and the introduction of a new requirement on veterinary practitioners to issue prescriptions in all cases. In addition, the Minister indicated she would be introducing a requirement that prescriptions must indicate at least two products where a suitable alternative was available in order to give farmers more choice as to the appropriate products. Furthermore, licensed merchants will be permitted to supply certain prescription medicines for the first time from 1 January 2007.

In her statement the Minister stated that, as well as the delay in the recategorisation of intramammaries as prescription medicines, she was deferring until 1 January 2007 the abolition of the prescription only medicine — exempt — category and the extension of the sale of prescription medicines by licensed merchants. In regard to the latter, and because most licensed merchants are not currently trained to dispense prescription medicines and many of their premises do not meet the required standards, the Minister was deferring until 2007 allowing licensed merchants to sell prescription medicines to enable the appropriate arrangements to be put in place. She confirmed that it was her intention to finalise the range of products that could be sold by licensed merchants and to set down the training and standards of premises requirements in more detail early in 2006 in order to allow licensed merchants time to meet the new requirements.

More generally, the Minister stated that, reflecting what was contained in the EU directive, the new regulations would also include a range of measures which would have a positive effect in securing an innovative pharmaceutical industry and the continued availability of an adequate range of treatments. Some of the measures, particularly those relating to the mutual recognition and cascade regimes, will bring particular benefits to small peripheral markets such as Ireland. The Minister stressed that the forthcoming regulations would be reviewed next year in light of the outcome of the exemption criteria issue and practical experience and she undertook to provide a suitable regime for intramammaries. She has also indicated that there will be full consultation with all the stakeholders on the range of matters involved before a final decision is taken.

A number of specific issues were raised. On exemptions, the Commission has undertaken to submit the exemption criteria early in 2006. We have made a submission to the Commission requesting that all medicines currently off-prescription be accommodated, namely, that we retain the status quo other than for intramammaries, which, because they contain antibiotics, fall into a different category. The proposal from the Commission will be submitted to a standing committee and a decision will be taken by a qualified majority. The Minister has made it abundantly clear that in the event of our not being successful, she will revisit the issue before 2007 with a view to allowing for non-veterinarians to issue prescriptions for certain medicines.

As stated earlier, if we were to allow that all non-veterinarians could prescribe, we would, in effect, have to provide that medicines currently not subject to prescription, namely, wormers and so on, be so prescribed. I do not believe that is what people want. The arrangement to push for criteria which will allow our range of medicines to remain exempt is the best approach. We do not believe there is a risk of a black market in this area. While the UK is going in a slightly different direction, it has, in effect, given up on the prospect of obtaining exemptions. We, however, are seeking to retain the current regime until 2007. The Minister has given her assurance that if we are not successful she will change the regime in the course of 2006.

The UK has gone a different direction and has effectively given up the prospect of having certain medicines exempted. We do not believe the prospects are remote. In any event, we would not necessarily follow the UK all the way down the line on this. We are aware of its experience with a range of diseases and so on in recent years. The issue is not one of whether we follow the example of the UK or that of the continental market, which has a much more rigid approach to veterinary prescriptions. We have a major interest in ensuring that our regime is effective and that regulators and consumers have confidence in our products. We tend to seek a much tighter regime than would be the case in a small number of member states. The vast majority of the current 15 EU member states operate tighter regimes than we would contemplate. This is about striking a balance between achieving a reasonably flexible regime with strong controls and having a tight regime.

I am not sure if I have answered all the questions raised. The Competition Authority was under the misapprehension that a raft of medicines would immediately become prescription only. In addition, there was a great deal of misunderstanding or exaggeration as to what the regulations would entail. We have since clarified the position for the authority. We wish to maintain competition. Some of the measures included in the regulations will contribute towards maintaining a competitive market.

I would like the delegation to outline the background to this issue. Is there a problem in Ireland with dispensing animal medicines? I read that approximately 90% of the impurities in food, which are the type of ingredients or chemicals one does not want to find in food, come from outside the EU. That will create a huge problem. Why is it important and safer for a vet to dispense these medicines? Is there a problem with those who currently dispense these medicines but who are not veterinary practitioners?

The main batch is covered by the 1996 regulations, which are almost ten years old. They were in gestation for a period. It is timely to look at the regime in place. We have examined the regime and loosened the requirement that a vet must go to a farm before a prescription is written. We require vets to write prescriptions and to prescribe two products where there are alternatives. The system is working well here. We have a residue monitoring programme and all the results suggest that the rules are generally being complied with.

The system is working well.

Yes. However, the requirement that all medicines for food producing animals should become subject to prescription is an EU requirement. We did not seek or support it; we opposed it. We and one other member state got the provision included for this derogation.

The former Minister, Deputy Walsh, a member of this committee, opposed it.

We did not seek this provision. However, it is the norm at European level. The directive does not prescribe that only a vet can write a prescription but that a suitably qualified professional person can write it. The regime where only current medicines are subject to prescription will remain in place. There will not be any additional medicines made prescription only until 1 January 2007.

Mr. Healy mentioned the UK. The latter has designated vets, pharmacists and licensed merchants to issue prescriptions, which is entirely within the remit of the directive.

Why do we not do that?

As I explained, we are not adding any new medicines to the prescription list under the regulations we are introducing. Our approach is to get the non-prescription medicines left in that position. We must negotiate that at European level.

We are gambling that a particular decision will be made about those exemptions. This is the core of the issue.

We will pay money if we go the way the Chairman suggests. We will make these wormers and other medicines prescription only now.

Mr. Healy said that the current system is working well.

We are not subject to prescription at this stage.

Is he saying that there is not a problem with that issue?

Once a medicine is made prescription only, I suspect there will be some additional cost involved. Farmers suggested that it would cost €80 million to make the remaining medicines prescription only. I do not believe that figure. However, once a medicine becomes prescription only, whether it is prescribed by a vet or someone else, there will be a mark-up. We do not want to add to the list of prescription medicines other than intramammaries.

That is fair enough and I accept it. Is it not the case, as I said, that we are gambling on the EU special committee making a particular determination and that we could be left out in the cold? It has been explained to me in a couple of ways what Ireland's reaction would be. The Minister has stated that if that occurs — if we do not get what we want essentially — she will go about rewriting the regulation, if necessary. Only two or three countries out of the 25 member states would agree with Ireland on this matter. I remind Mr. Healy that he has stated many other European countries have made very strict determinations with regard to the regulations under discussion. Why would those countries agree with us? Why should we make the analysis now that we will get what we want when approximately 22 other countries disagree? I presume Ireland's strategy would be to rewrite the regulations. However, it is not the behaviour of a good European that when one does not get what one wants, one goes back to the table and decides to rewrite the regulations to suit oneself, regardless of what was said at a meeting. It is an unusual strategy.

I like gambling when I know I cannot lose, which is, in effect, what we are doing. We are saying we will fight for more medicines — for the current range of medicines other than intramammaries — to remain non-prescription. If we do not achieve this, within the regulations we will be forced to make them prescription-only medicines, but not necessarily to be written by vets; on the contrary, if we lose everything and none of the current range of non-prescription medicines is exempted, there is no question but that non-vets will be prescribing them and that this will come within the regulations. However, we should not throw in the towel at this stage. We should, at least, try to keep some medicines non-prescription.

Other members may have questions about the timescale involved. If what I have described occurs, the timescale of the subsequent process will be important. Why has the Department changed its position within the past week on intramammaries? I read the Minister's contribution to the debate in the Dáil last week. I am not making a political point but she said the Opposition motion was entirely without substance and that there was no point in bringing it to the House. However, within the past six days the position has changed. Ireland has entirely changed its position on intramammaries and sought a delay until 1 January 2007. Will the Department explain why this happened?

I also do not wish to deal with the politics of the situation.

Neither do I.

The Fine Gael motion was comprehensive. The Minister made one change to an element of the counter motion and this change applied to intramammaries. The consultation process continued up to the day before the debate on the motion commenced. The statutory animal remedies consultative committee met on 17 October, at which stage the Minister had not arrived at a final position as she had not given full consideration to all the views received. She is obliged to consult the committee. She also consulted other stakeholders. Based on the views she had received, because it would have taken the Irish Medicines Board some time to provide for the recategorisation and to ensure a uniform date, intramammaries will not become prescription-only until 1 January 2007. This is a reasonable decision.

The note circulated by the Department to the joint committee last week stated there was no prospect of "securing exemption status for intramammaries at EU level". Is that still the position?

We believe that is the position on intramammaries which contain antibiotics. Ireland and Luxembourg were the only countries which did not have such intramammaries subject to prescription. Under the new regime, the United Kingdom will have intramammaries subject to veterinary prescriptions. I do not see a prospect of securing exemption status.

There is a slight contradiction in that while we accepted the proposal to place intramammaries under veterinary prescription, we have decided in recent days not to do so.

We have decided to put them under prescription but not until 1 January 2007.

We have delayed the decision.

The statement received by the joint committee appears to differ from comments made by Mr. Healy indicating, I as I understood them, that the proposed system was working well in Europe. I do not see any such reference in the text we received. There are distortions along the border between Denmark and Germany because the former operates a rigid regime while the latter takes a more flexible approach. Differing regimes in these neighbouring countries have created a significant black market. Given that Ireland and the United Kingdom are moving towards creating an all-Ireland health regime with a view to marketing Irish food products and in the light of our shared border, what discussion took place with the UK authorities on developing a joint approach? Will our approach, especially with regard to those who will be registered to prescribe, create a similar distortion of the market along the border with the Six Counties? How will it harm aspirations towards an all-Ireland health regime and the marketing of Irish food products?

I am not sure I said the system was working well in Europe but I did say it was working well here. I also indicated that in general in Europe — at least in the 14 other pre-accession states, as I am not sure of the position in the ten new member states — the position largely was that medicines were prescribed by a veterinarian only, whether in Germany or Denmark. The latter has an extremely tight regime and while Germany perhaps has a slightly looser regime than Denmark, it is still much tighter than that in place in the United Kingdom or that contemplated by us.

We have had discussions with the United Kingdom authorities and were aware of its position throughout. In the short term we are not really changing what will be veterinary prescription between now and the end of 2007 but we will review the position before then in the light of the outcome of the discussions on the criteria to be applied. We may well change our position to move closer to that which obtains in Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. It may not become identical but may come closer. What we are attempting to do on the island is to develop equivalence and as many common policies as possible, albeit not necessarily identical in all respects. That is the normal approach in areas relating to animal health and welfare and food safety generally. The objective is to have equivalent, although not necessarily identical, measures.

Does Mr. Healy see any implications for black market activities along the Border with a consequent negative impact on the reputation of our food products?

As I explained, we are not changing anything between now and the end of 2006. Some more medicines are being made prescription-only, but we are not doing so.

There is the question of suitably qualified persons.

It is a prescription regime. The United Kingdom has stated pharmacists and others may dispense such medicines; it need not be a veterinarian. Let us consider what will happen in the long term. One cannot claim that this will not increase costs. If one is living in a Border county, one will cross over to a pharmacy on the other side to get the medicine. Why would one not think that? I do not understand how one could maintain otherwise.

If we were bringing additional medicines under prescription control, I could understand that, but we are not doing so. The status quo still applies.

Yes, but Mr. Healy is presuming everything will work out fine and that after the negotiations, we will be in the same position as the United Kingdom. However, one cannot say this.

Why are we not reclassifying the drugs rather than leaving the matter to the EU standing committee? I do not understand that either. How has the United Kingdom defined "licensed merchants" and why is there a reservation? I learned from the website today that we had been advised to examine the animal remedies regulations and provisions relating to the import of animal remedies for export. However, to be quite honest, there were so many that I could not find evidence of any rationale in the 200 or 300 pages that I printed from the website.

We are going to the European Commission to request that it make proposals to allow the existing range of medicines not subject to prescription to remain so. Otherwise, we will be faced with making them prescription-only. We could decide now that medicines such as wormers are subject to prescription. We do not want to do this, since we would prefer that they remain free from that need.

Is a prescription required in the United Kingdom?

It will be under the United Kingdom regulations, since it seems to have——

They will be available from a wide range of outlets.

They are subject to prescription.

Who are the licensed merchants in the United Kingdom?

The United Kingdom authorities have taken the route of specifying qualified professionals. I do not believe there is a category of licensed merchants. The regulations provide for suitably qualified persons.

"Pharmacists and licensed merchants" is the term used.

The regulations provide for suitably qualified persons.

What is the definition of "suitably qualified"?

The United Kingdom has stated in its regulations that suitably qualified persons will have to pass certain training courses. The regulations have not prescribed the content or nature of these courses, but this will be laid down by the British Ministry. Any person who wishes to be deemed eligible to prescribe drugs will have to prove he or she has attended and passed such a course.

Will it be equivalent to a two-month FÁS course?

No, it has given no indication of its plans.

Are our approaches being strangled by vested interests that want to maintain control of a lucrative business?

The decision was taken at ministerial level on the advice of our officials and in the context of a consultation process which involved a statutory animal remedies consultative committee. This has a broad range of representation. Meetings with the stakeholders also took place.

Were there representations from any professional bodies before the decision was taken?

There were representations from some 27 different organisations.

May the committee have a list of those?

Of course.

I thank Mr. Seamus Healy and Mr. Richard Healy for attending today's meeting, particularly at such relatively short notice.

I am much more reassured, on the basis of what I have heard today, than I was last week. As an agriculturalist, I feel I am able to make some judgments in this area. Suitably qualified people within the co-ops who have a good deal of experience should be able to decide whether particular medicines might be given to a farmer or whether he or she should be allowed to buy them. However, I believe what the Department is doing is eminently sensible. It would be selling the pass, in other words, if it allows that to happen now. That is why it is correct to wait until 2007.

There are two choices, either to allow the suitably qualified people to do the prescribing or keep them off the pitch, so to speak, thereby keeping the medicines out of the prescription-only category until 2007. The latter has been suggested to the committee today and it is a very good way forward.

It is worth recalling the genesis of this. I recall the passage of the Bill through the Oireachtas in 1993, when there was widespread support for it. The misuse of hormones controversy was topical at the time. The former Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Walsh, explained to the committee last week that some very powerful antibiotics were in use. The Deputy also indicated the implications of this — as regards sensitivity, resistance, etc. — in terms of human health and referred to the entire question of withdrawal periods. Irrespective of what was coming from Europe, there was an obvious need to tidy all that up. That was what the Act, quite effectively, achieved. I recall attending marts when there were some very questionable people selling goods, with impunity, from the back of vans. Some of them were not far removed from illegal organisations, so it is important to remember from where we have come in this regard.

The statutory instrument states that the competent authority, the Irish Medicines Board, will be able to provide for exemptions. I wonder how far this may be pushed in terms of deciding what particular products will be exempt rather than prescription-only. This question is relevant to the work of the committee, which has engaged in a good deal of discussion with regard to subsidiarity. It is about the degree to which a national regulating authority can make decisions about particular products and I wonder how much flexibility exists in that regard.

The other aspect is the degree to which the Competition Authority might become involved. One of the concerns is that the generics might be squeezed out, that the large multinational companies could dictate the particular products to be sold to farmers and that this, in turn, could lead to an increase in prices. That is a reasonable concern. I realise that the Competition Authority does not come within the remit of the Department of Agriculture and Food. Nonetheless, Mr. Healy might have some views on that matter. It is perfectly sensible, as I said, to keep the products off-prescription until 2007. At that stage, the other categories of persons might be introduced, if required, because if that is not done we have sold the pass before the crunch of the issue is even reached.

In the statutory instrument, bees are included along with bovine animals. One person wrote what I thought was a perfectly reasonable letter to me asking whether, as a vet, he was expected to look at these bees. The vast majority of beekeepers in this country are amateurs and there are some concerns about some of the medicines that are administered to bees.

We must be aware of the human health aspect of this, although it is odd that rules seem to be less rigid for what I can buy at the pharmacist to deal with a common cold than what a farmer can buy to deal with the condition of his animals. If the intramammaries contain antibiotics, they need to be controlled as the implications for human health are very serious. We are a food exporting country and we must have food of the very highest quality. I congratulate everyone in the Department involved in dealing with the foot and mouth crisis. I know they would do something similar regarding avian flu if it were to arrive here. We must be very protective of our status as a food exporting country. For that reason, I would be prepared to take a precautionary approach. Some of the misgivings I might have had on this matter have been assuaged by what I have heard today.

I thank the Senator. The directive requires that medicines for food producing animals become prescription-only. It is not required that only vets can prescribe the medicines. However, the IMB does not have a great deal of flexibility. We are attempting to provide for these derogations, which will effectively exempt some medicines from being regarded as medicines for food producing animals.

We want to maintain a competitive position and the Competition Authority can have a role in this. The Minister will be explicitly providing that prescribers will have to prescribe more than one medicine where there are alternatives available. However, that is an area that will bear further consideration and oversight as the system is rolled out. We would clearly have a preference for the prescription of the cheapest and most effective medicine and we would not wish to see particular brand names being prescribed at all times.

Will the advertising aspect be immediately applicable?

That is an explicit provision in the directive. We did not seek that particular provision. We asked the Commission to confirm that advertising in the normal way in farming newspapers should not be covered by the ban. We have got an initial negative reaction to that but the Minister has gone back to the Commissioner asking for a review. Depending on the outcome, the legislation will be formulated on that basis.

Would a magazine being circulated to veterinary practitioners have a different standard to a newspaper circulated to farmers?

We all know what has happened in medicine, where some of these powerful companies have been bringing people to very expensive dinners and outings. I can see the potential for the same thing happening here.

The Minister has personally asked for an alternative interpretation from the Commissioner.

With regard to bees, they are, unfortunately, food producing animals because they produce honey. We have removed the requirement that vets must see the bees before a prescription is issued. Under the current legislation, there is an explicit requirement that a prescription cannot be issued unless the vet has gone to see the animal.

They would want to go and see the vets.

I was not present at our previous meeting and, as a consequence, I could not partake in the debate in respect of this matter. It is helpful for the departmental officials dealing with the regulations at administrative level to come before the committee and exchange views with members. Mr. Healy's contribution clarified a number of points about which some of us were uncertain.

It seems that the fundamental change will relate to intramammaries, which will come under the prescription control provisions. From a farmer's point of view, the concern in this regard relates to the commercial dimension. There is a general acceptance that professional control is required and that human health must be protected in all circumstances. However, certain product ranges have become almost household names through advertising in the agricultural press. The constant bang of the advertising drum has an undoubted impact on the decisions of individual farmers. The potential for savings for farmers through the utilisation of generic drugs must be kept under review. Will Mr. Healy clarify the situation in this regard? I presume that part of the function of the Irish Medicines Board is to carefully examine every product before it goes on the market and verify the integrity of the company which has developed it.

Is it the case that, under the new arrangement, vets will not have to prescribe on a monthly basis but will have up to six months to do so?

They will have a maximum of six months. There is clear potential for savings from the farmer's point of view. All these products will have sell-by dates. The issues in this regard relate principally, but not exclusively, to the dairy sector, where the attraction of buying products in bulk to maximise negotiating potential is obvious. How will issues in regard to product sell-by dates fit in under the new regulations?

The desirability of a harmonisation of the veterinary regimes North and South became apparent in the wake of the foot and mouth epidemic which affected my county, particularly the Cooley Peninsula. There was an outpouring of political comment to the effect that an all-island regime should be in place. What progress has been made in this regard? It is relevant to this debate in the context of a situation where a different regime may operate in Newry or Crossmaglen to that in place in Dundalk and Drogheda.

This meeting has been enlightening for all members. There has been some misunderstanding about what was envisaged under these regulations. The Minister and her officials have partaken in an exercise in democracy by taking account of the lobbying undertaken by representative organisations in the farming sector.

The Deputy raised the issue of generic products. It is not possible and if it were possible to require that prescriptions be written for a generic good, where such is available, we would have done so. Generic goods do not become approved in that fashion. A product is either approved or not approved and its approval is not based on whether it is either an original or a generic. As I informed Senator Dardis, it is hoped that the Competition Authority, the Department and the farming organisations will keep this matter under review and exert pressure on prescribers to ensure that the cheapest goods, whether they be branded or generic products, be prescribed, at least as alternatives.

The harmonisation of the veterinary regimes is an ongoing issue. Regular meetings are held at ministerial level, at my level, at working group level and at DVO level. A good deal of progress has been made but more work remains to be done. I assure the Deputy that there is daily contact between the two administrations.

I will keep my questions simple because I am from a non-agricultural background. I thank the Department officials for attending and for clarifying the issue for someone like me who has no understanding of the meaning of this EU directive. It is important that the committee debates EU directives. These often stem from proposals made in Brussels and we must be made aware of the impact they will have on national legislation. It is important that the details are thrashed out.

This directive seems to be more farmer-friendly. The idea of issuing prescriptions with a timescale of 31 days up to six months must be more attractive to the farmers and more cost effective. On the proposal to allow non-vets to prescribe, there has been an influx of therapists and counsellors into the market. I am concerned about the criteria necessary for these non-vets, whoever they might be, to qualify them to prescribe. Will the Department be the responsible body regarding standards and qualification requirements for non-veterinary prescribing? I would not wish to see some groups taking advantage of the new market.

I congratulate the Minister. She has a natural flair for consultation. She has achieved her aim of bringing clarification to the matter.

The standards are not currently laid down but the Department will need to address this matter in the next three or four months, particularly by early 2006. It may not be necessary if, despite the Chairman's views, we succeed in having all current medicines kept off-prescription. However, I agree with the Senator that it will be necessary to ensure that standards are maintained. This will involve a degree of training and course attendance. The Department has not written down anything but we will bear in mind the points made by the Senator.

I thank Mr. Healy.

I have two observations to make. I thank both Mr. Seamus Healy and Mr. Richard Healy for attending. The representations being made to the committee on this issue come mainly from the farming community, even though it received a submission in support of the regulations from the representatives of the veterinary union, which was a surprise, so to speak. Farmers, from both a competitive and a commercial perspective, are concerned.

Mr. Healy stated, "One of the objectives of the EU directive was to address concerns about the continuing competitiveness of the EU pharmaceutical industry and the loss of veterinary treatments — hence the directive and the national implementing regulations — as well as comprehensively updating the licensing process and the regulatory regime, including a range of measures designed to address these problems." This is, in a sense, the reason the farming community is somewhat anxious. Farmers are concerned about the possibility that an entire set of new rules and regulations will be introduced, not simply with consumer rights and animal health in mind but also to try to ensure the competitiveness of the European pharmaceutical industry. While I appreciate that this is not the primary purpose of the legislation, farmers concerned about increasing costs and tightening regulations will not be consoled to learn that the burden being imposed on them is part of a process of ensuring the competitiveness of the EU pharmaceutical industry. As the Chairman is aware, farmers are concerned about costs.

I appreciate comments made by the Minister over the weekend which mark an advance on her contribution in the Dáil last week. Mr. Healy indicated that we would move to a second option if the first option of adding to the list of exemptions at EU level does not work. The prospects of achieving exemptions are virtually nil because they would require the support of a majority of EU countries. There is no evidence of such support, particularly as the political indications are that countries such as Sweden, Finland and Germany are firmly opposed to adding to the number of exemptions because their lists are already so strict. It is for this reason that we are postponing D-Day, as it were, by 12 months. Is there any indication of political support at European level for allowing us to add to the list of exempt medicines? Mr. Seamus Healy will not have political views on this issue but does he have any administrative opinions based on what his fellow civil servants are saying across the European Union? The political messages thus far appear to be negative in that regard.

The Senator referred to one of the directive's objectives. While the single sentence he cited is perhaps open to the interpretation he made, it is not what was meant. I did not mean that the purpose of the directive is to make more money for pharmaceutical companies. Its purpose is to ensure that medicines continue to be produced or that the cost of producing medicines is reduced to ensure companies will remain in the veterinary medicines business.

Will the cost of the medicines in question fall?

We have introduced a range of measures that will help farmers. The prescribing regime, the 31 days to six-month period, the fact that medicines would have to be prescribed——

Notwithstanding everything Mr. Healy has said, the farming industry contends that costs will rise at a time when farmers are feeling the pinch generally. Is it his contention that this will not be the case?

It will largely depend on how successful we are on the exemption issue. If we do not secure exemptions, more medicines will have to become prescription-only and regardless of whether they are prescribed by veterinarians, professionally qualified persons or others, I suspect there will be some additional costs but nothing like the €80 million mentioned in some media reports. I understand the entire sector is worth approximately €96 million. In any event, I do not believe that the farming community would be able to meet that sort of extra cost and neither do I think that anything of that scale will arise.

As the witness said, it is entirely dependent on how successful we are regarding the exemptions.

It is also dependent on the additional competitive measures that we introduce and what the Competition Authority can do to ensure that competition rules are observed.

Senator Bradford asked how successful we have been. I admit that it is a difficult battle. In the first instance, we had difficulty obtaining the derogation provision included in the directive. The UK, the Netherlands and Ireland were the main member states that sought such a provision. Others were not pushing too strongly for something of that nature.

Will medicines on the list have to be exempt across all 25 EU states? According to one argument that we have heard, one of the difficulties in extending the list is that an exempt medicine in Ireland would have to be exempt in Spain and everywhere else. Is that not correct? That representation has been made to us in very strong terms.

There will not be provision for specific medicines. Criteria will be agreed for member states to interpret. It does not necessarily follow that if we exempt a medicine based on the agreed criteria, everyone else must follow suit.

It will be generic.

If we fail to secure an exemption for specific criteria, will that list be closed? Will any new drugs that appear be shut out?

If they do not meet the criteria, yes.

I fully accept the answer to my earlier question. One wonders about this issue, not from an Irish but rather from a European perspective. Most directives are transnational and have a purpose and policy behind them. What is deemed good for Ireland is good for France, Poland and so on. However, if we have an Irish solution within the regulations, and possibly also a British solution, one might wonder why we have such regulations at all. At parliamentary level, we generally complain that EU regulations are being showered down for us to implement. However, I wonder politically about that aspect. How can we have an EU directive that has a slightly different way of working in various countries? If this exempt list, for example——

If the Department has its way after the select committee has ruled, it could be massively different. It could be like black and white compared with other countries.

Will it be unique that, in this directive, there will be various operations — and not just interpretations — in different parts of the EU?

That is not unusual. It is impossible to prescribe down to the last word how a directive will be interpreted. What should emerge from the discussions next year are criteria open to interpretation by the various competent authorities, which include the Irish Medicines Board and similar bodies elsewhere. Equally, the directive does not state who will be the prescribers. Some member states are confining prescribers to veterinarians and have no intention of going beyond that. The UK has gone further and if we fail to secure satisfaction on the material issue, we will return to that. It is not necessary to have absolutely identical interpretations or operations as long as there is equivalence. We are back to providing equivalence, without any advantage in competition terms. Much of the interpretation is left to the member states and, within them, to the competent authorities.

Will the prescribing responsibility of suitably qualified persons be confined to intramammaries and that responsibility for other prescriptions already covered under previous regulations will be retained by fully qualified veterinary practitioners?

That will be an issue for decision in the future. However, we foresee difficulties in having people other than vets prescribe intramammaries.

Is that exclusively?

There would be a difficulty with anybody at all doing so because they contain antibiotics. The UK, even with its so-called liberal regime, requires vets only to prescribe intramammaries. Ireland and Luxembourg are the only two member states that have intramammaries off-prescription. In the event that we do not get medicines other than intramammaries off-prescription, we envisage non-vets, that is suitably qualified people, prescribing such medicines.

Does that mean prescribing the range, the intramammaries plus the——

No, not the intramammaries. However, that is a decision for the future.

I presume Mr. Healy does not foresee this happening and does not expect any exemption as regards intramammaries.

Notwithstanding that, it is still open to Ireland or any other member state to allow intramammaries to be prescribed by somebody other than a vet. In theory, a suitably qualified person could do that.

The situation is extraordinary. I realise it is not of the Department's making but we have argued against this on a couple of occasions as the process went through Europe. It was decided to first see what the special committee had to say and afterwards to take action, without any real safeguards whatsoever. Can Mr. Healy say who are the members of the special committee?

This is the standing committee for the adaptation to technical progress of the directives on the removal of technical barriers to trade in the veterinary medicine products sector.

Will this decision be left entirely to this expert group?

On the basis of proposals from the Commission, that committee will decide on the criteria. I cannot understand why this committee wants the Department now to have wormers and such medicines made subject to prescription.

Let us forget about wormers. They are not the only items that farmers buy.

They are the most obvious and only example of which I can think under pressure.

Using that example——

They and any medicine not currently on prescription will be affected.

There is a strong possibility that such medicines will not be allowed on to the exempt list, in which case it will be back to prescriptions by vets or qualified persons.

The committee wants the Minister to do that now.

Excuse the pun but Mr. Healy is saying, in effect, "Live horse and you will get grass".

The danger now, not the option——

It will be interesting to see what will be the response of our EU partners. I am unhappy, overall, with this European project. I will be extremely surprised if countries are allowed to do solo runs at European level. I know it has been explained that it is not exactly a solo run, but it as close to one as we have ever seen with a directive from Europe. If that is the new European approach to directives, it shows a surprisingly relaxed attitude. Generally, directives are directives and what happens in one member state happens in another. If this is about the good of the consumer——

Last week Greece was not allowed to ban one of the GM varieties. In other words, the directive did apply across the European Union. I am not sure whether that is good or bad.

That poses the question: how flexible will this be?

That is the issue. Anyone with a knowledge of directives believes it is unlikely that the European Union will allow a member state to return with a watered down proposal after the fact. I am not blaming the civil servants, but it is dubious how we arrived at this position. Considering what has happened in the past four days with regard to the changing position on intramammaries, the Department may not be in as secure a position as Mr. Healy thinks. It is not that convincing. I am not saying Mr. Healy is responsible for the position in which we have ended up, but considering what was said in the House last Thursday, there has been a major change with regard to intramammaries. It is strange to be deliberating on the issue of going down a particular road if we succeed or fail at committee level. The comments of Opposition spokespersons, the Competition Authority and farmers do not hold water when absolutely nothing has yet been determined on how we should proceed.

The last time we had an Irish solution to an Irish problem, we ended up with vending machines. Perhaps we will have such machines for farmers.

I have not heard from either the Chairman or the Senators what we would gain from requiring prescriptions for medicines for which one currently does not need a prescription.

We are not making that point.

That would be the consequence.

Mr. Healy is talking about the two-step process. I am asking whether step one is feasible. I would welcome if it was feasible and we could add to the list of exempted medicines. If it is feasible, it appears to go against the process of the directive which is looking at a Europe-wide solution. That will be the interesting political angle at European level which is beyond us in this committee. It will be interesting to see if the European Union allows flexibility. If it is allowed, it will be welcome but it would be a new development. Let us hope the Minister is successful in adding to the list, but I would not bet on it.

When does Mr. Healy expect the expert committee to make its decision?

The Commission has undertaken to make a proposal early in 2006. We will receive a view at that stage, assuming the Commission delivers on what it has undertaken to do.

All we can say is that we are not going to agree on this. If it is possible, will Mr. Healy consult the committee? If he knows of any decision made by the expert committee, will he inform us? I thank him for appearing before this committee. I appreciate the delegates' contributions and their responses to our concerns. I am, however, even less convinced than I was at the previous meeting, particularly in light of the significant change in policy in the wake of what was said last week and in recent weeks. I wish the delegates well. I would appreciate if they could inform the committee of developments in regard to the expert committee.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.25 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 26 October 2005.

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