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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Oct 2005

Migration and Human Trafficking: Presentations.

The main item on today's agenda is a discussion with Government Departments and other interested parties on migration issues and human trafficking. This is the second meeting the committee has had on this subject. We are broadening the topic today to deal with issue of migration rather than that of human trafficking, on which we concentrated at the previous meeting. We have tried to broaden the flavour of the topic by attempting to get a representative group here. There are many speakers. On the previous occasion, the initial presentations were somewhat long. I would appreciate it, therefore, if presentations were confined to five minutes. I may stop representatives if they go over that limit. The meat of this will be dealt with in the question and answer session. It will all come out in the mix and we will discover what are the central points and what should be the main focus. As we did that on the previous occasion, representatives should not be overly concerned about it.

We will start with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, which is allotted ten minutes, followed by the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, each of which are allotted five minutes. We will then hear from Ms Charlton from the Immigrant Council of Ireland, Ms O'Keeffe from the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland, whom I welcome back, and Mr. Joyce of ICTU, whom I also welcome back. Ms O'Keeffe may give her presentation, followed by Mr. Joyce or whatever the witnesses wish to do. I understand that Ms Catherine Byrne is giving the presentation on behalf of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Ms Catherine Byrne

We propose to share the presentation. I will begin and will be followed by Mr. Paul Burns and Mr. Paul Murray.

The international definitions of trafficking in human beings and smuggling of migrants are those set out in the trafficking and smuggling protocols to the UN Convention Against Transnational Organised Crime, also known as the Palermo Convention. The brief supplied to the committee contains the full text of these definitions. While the seriousness of smuggling should not be underestimated, trafficking in persons is by far more serious, since it involves the use of threat, force, other forms of coercion, abduction, etc. It is important to maintain a clear distinction between the two so that policy and operational responses are properly focused.

The Garda authorities state that no evidence has been disclosed to date which would indicate that criminal gangs consisting of Irish nationals are involved in trafficking activity. They further state that evidence of the involvement in trafficking of criminal gangs operating outside of the jurisdiction is scarce and that the majority of investigations undertaken by the Garda Síochána relate to suspected smuggling of migrants as opposed to human trafficking. However, there is no room for complacency and the relevant authorities are determined to ensure that all necessary measures are in place to prevent trafficking, prosecute the perpetrators — if cases come to notice — and assist victims. The Garda Síochána takes a proactive approach and is ever vigilant to ensure that any allegations relating to human trafficking are vigorously investigated.

A number of Garda operations, including Operation Quest, have been put in place with a view to the prevention and detection of both smuggling and trafficking. Operation Quest operates under the direction and control of the assistant commissioner in charge of national support services and the assistant commissioner for the Dublin metropolitan area who have amalgamated their resources with those of local district detective units in the form of a joint task force for the purpose of undertaking criminal investigations. A number of Garda specialist units, including the Garda National Immigration Bureau, the Criminal Assets Bureau and the National Criminal Intelligence Unit, are closely involved in the activities of this task force.

Mr. Paul Burns

I am from the immigration policy division of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I want to talk about the approaches that are taken to dealing with the issues of trafficking in human beings. My colleagues are speaking about the area of prosecution and punishment of traffickers. The other areas concerned are the prevention of trafficking and the protection of victims. I will briefly outline, for the information of the committee, the actions that have been taken in recent years in the immigration field which contribute to both prevention of trafficking and to protection of victims.

In the prevention area border patrols are an essential element. The Garda National Immigration Bureau has a central role in this work. Its work on border controls is not confined to Ireland alone. International co-operation between police and border control authorities is essential in combating trafficking. Co-operation with carriers combined with carriers' liability penalties are also necessary to ensure that people who are not legitimately entitled to come to Ireland do not do so. Such co-operation assists in respect of combating trafficking and smuggling and in terms of disrupting their activities.

In the area of protecting victims, where a person is suspected of being a victim of trafficking and they bring information to the attention of the Garda, the case is investigated. When that person is co-operating with the Garda and it is clear that they are in need of protection, it is possible for the Minister to grant permission to such a person to remain in the State. Where victims wish to return voluntarily to their countries of origin, it is possible for the Minister to assist in arranging such returns. In some instances the services of the International Organisation for Migration are used. In cases where victims are afraid to come directly to the authorities, it is possible for them to approach organisations such as Ruhama and the IOM, which can bring cases to the attention of the Garda for appropriate action in respect of both the victims and the perpetrators.

The Department and the Garda Síochána have powers to deal with trafficking cases and with the victims of trafficking under existing legislation and procedures. In the immigration area in particular, we are examining how the forthcoming immigration and residence Bill can assist in dealing with this issue further.

Mr. Paul Murray

I work in the criminal law reform division of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. At present, we are preparing legislation which has the primary objective of providing for compliance with two EU framework decisions. One of those is the framework decision on combating trafficking in human beings for the purpose of sexual and labour exploitation. The other is the framework decision on combating the sexual exploitation of children and child pornography. Those two instruments replaced a 1997 EU joint action which concerned action to combat trafficking in human beings and sexual exploitation of children. The Child Trafficking and Pornography Act 1998 gave effect to the sexual exploitation of children aspects of the joint action and also to the trafficking in children aspect.

It was our intention, following the enactment of that legislation, to introduce new legislation to separately criminalise the specific action of trafficking in adults for the purpose of their sexual exploitation. However, we deferred that legislation due to the start of negotiations on several other international instruments that were coming on track. As members are probably aware, on any given subject we usually get one crack at doing the legislation and will not get another chance for years. Therefore, we want to incorporate as much as possible in one piece of legislation.

I wish to mention three of these instruments. I will not read them out because they have very long titles. They are the protocol to prevent, depress and punish trafficking in persons, especially women and children, supplementing the United Nations Convention Against Transnational Organised Crime. The other is the Council of Europe Convention on Action Against Trafficking in Human Beings or CAHTEH, as it is better known. Another instrument we are taking into account in this legislation is the optional protocol to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child on the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography. While we do not have specific trafficking legislation, our legislation generally on child sexual exploitation is up to date. However, there are small pieces in each of those instruments which we must reflect in the legislation. The last of those instruments to be agreed was CAHTEH, which was adopted a few months ago.

We do not have a vacuum in our legislation while the new legislation is being prepared. The Child Trafficking and Pornography Act deals with trafficking in children. While the Illegal Immigrants (Trafficking) Act 2000 is not specifically designed for this purpose, it can be used in cases of trafficking of anyone for the purpose of sexual or labour exploitation. However, it is not ideal. It would be better to have the specific offence of trafficking in persons for sexual or labour exploitation with a higher penalty. The preparation of this legislation is at an advanced stage. I hope it will go before the Government before the end of the year. The general outline of the legislation has been finalised, but we are looking at one or two other areas which do not directly emanate from any of these international conventions because as one is preparing legislation, other matters come to notice, particularly in the area of protecting children or other vulnerable people against sexual exploitation. It may be broadened out slightly to take account of other important issues.

Mr. Brian Ó Raghallaigh

I will speak about the experience of migrant workers in Ireland from a social welfare perspective. Workers from other EU states have certain social welfare rights in Ireland under EU legislation. I have provided details of the regulations. The objective is to facilitate pre-movement of labour. Four principles underpin those regulations. There should not be any discrimination on grounds of nationality. There is an applicable legislation principle so that workers are subject to the social insurance legislation of one state only, usually the state in which they are working. There is also an aggregation principle which means social insurance paid in another member state can be aggregated with social insurance paid in Ireland and this will give rise to a social insurance benefit in Ireland. The fourth principle is the export principle which means benefits built up in a member state may be paid in another state in certain circumstances. I have given the committee a list of the non-exportable benefits.

That all relates to migrant workers. However, job seekers are a different category. They have limited access to social assistance in another member state, including Ireland. Last year we introduced the habitual residence condition which will be of interest to people here. That condition does not apply to social insurance benefits or to social welfare exceptional needs or urgent needs payments. They are generally one-off payments. It would not be the case that one would get a stream of exceptional needs payments. I have provided a list of the payments affected by the habitual residence condition.

The habitual residence condition was introduced to coincide with the accession of the ten new member states. There was concern that there could be migration from those states to here to claim social welfare benefits. The rule we introduced applies to people of every nationality, including Irish people. Other EU states have something akin to the habitual residence condition. It is a term which arises in social security regulations and it is guided by the European Court of Justice. The term habitual residence is intended to convey a degree of permanence and a close association between the applicant and the country. It means more than a mere physical presence. While it refers to physical presence and it looks to the past, it also looks at the person's intention into the future. It relies heavily on the facts of the individual case. The European Court of Justice has set out five factors which should be taken into account when dealing with these matters and it is important to list them. They are the length and continuity of residence, the length and purpose of any absence, the nature and pattern of employment, the applicant's main centre of interest and the future intentions of the applicant. Those five factors are taken into account in determining whether a person meets the habitual residence condition.

The administration of the condition will be of interest to members. Some 90% of cases are straightforward and they are decided in favour of the applicant at the point of claim. We have established a central section to decide on complex cases. Some 57% of those complex cases relate to unemployment assistance, while 34% relate to child benefit. Up to last week a total of 22,000 cases had been decided. Some 75% of them satisfied the condition, while 25% did not. Some 97% to 98% of applications for social assistance favour the applicant from an habitual residence point of view. I have provided statistics on the yes and no outcomes and they are broken down by geographic area. I have also provided statistics on the new member states.

The operation of the condition is under review. I have provided the terms of reference of that review in the Department. It is a standard approach in the Department that when we introduce something new, we look at it after a reasonable period to see how it is working in practice.

The live register is of interest to members of the committee. I presume members want to know if there are people from other countries on the live register. The position has not changed in the past two years. The majority of people on the live register are from Ireland or the UK. I have provided the numbers from other countries. There are approximately 6,500 from outside the European Union, 1,300 from the new member states and 1,500 from the original EU states, apart from Ireland and the UK. Those are small numbers in the context of 150,000 and they do not change much.

As regards the allocation of personal public service numbers or the old RSI numbers, an enormous number of those have been allocated to people from the new accession states since May 2004. I have provided statistics on those numbers. We see evidence through Revenue data which come on stream to us that in approximately 70% of those cases tax is being paid. Our analysis of the pattern of this information is that many of the people who came here subsequently left. Many of them were students who worked for the summer. It is the same type of pattern we had in the past when we went to other countries. The last page of my handout shows the percentage of applicants for social welfare assistance as a percentage of the applications for PPS numbers. One must have a PPS number either to work or to claim social assistance. The figures are broken down for the ten new member states and they are between 2% and 6% in all cases. The message is that people coming to Ireland from the new member states, in particular, are coming to work. Many of them come for a short period and then leave, while many others stay and pay tax and they are welcome.

Mr. Seán Ward

I will talk about employment rights compliance and my colleague, Mr. Seán Murray, will talk about work permits. We do three things in relation to employment rights compliance in the Department. We provide information, we have a labour inspectorate function with which people are familiar and we have a small prosecution enforcement unit for intractable cases. There is no distinction between the rights of migrant workers and those of Irish citizens. I have provided the legal reference to the committee to demonstrate that fact. The labour inspectorate seeks to ensure compliance and rectification of breaches that are identified. In occasional instances, we are obliged to bring prosecutions.

Last year, we carried out more than 5,000 inspections. To date this year, we have carried out over 3,000. These include a major investigation that was publicised in the media earlier this year. There are now 31 inspector posts sanctioned, representing a near doubling of the numbers during the past 12 months. There are 20 inspectors serving currently and 11 are expected to be in position early next week. It is worth noting that, due to the complexity of the work of the labour inspectorate, there is a training period. Inspectors concentrate on employment sectors that have traditionally required considerable attention from the inspectorate. These include the services sectors covered by employment regulation orders and involving hospitality, cleaning and agricultural work. These are also the sectors in which migrant workers tend to accumulate.

The committee should be aware that, as part of Sustaining Progress, the labour inspectorate carried out a review of its activities, resources and mandate and produced a discussion document on these issues last January. The document, which was circulated on publication to the social partners, contains approximately 40 proposals for discussion on topics ranging from the mandate, the legal system and the allocation of resources to links with employment rights bodies. Discussions are ongoing with the social partners on each of the proposals to determine their viability and to establish whether they should be introduced. There have been five meetings so far and a further meeting is scheduled for next week. The output of the discussions will be included in the forthcoming social partnership discussions. The discussion document includes particular proposals to emphasise information and education on employment rights, particularly for migrant workers.

My colleague, Mr. Seán Murray, will discuss employment permits.

Mr. Seán Murray

I have responsibility for the economic migration policy within the Department. Nationals from outside the European economic area require a work permit to work in Ireland as governed by section 2 of the Employment Permits Act 2003. Until now, the work permits system has operated on an administrative basis. An employer must demonstrate that a suitable applicant for a position is not available within the EEA by advertising with FÁS for a month. Thereafter, if an employer pays at least the minimum wage and is not in what is termed the "ineligible sector", the permit is granted. To date, 22,500 permits have been granted in 2005. Of these, 600 were new permits while the rest were renewals. It is intended to place the existing system on a statutory footing, for which purpose the Employment Permits Bill was promulgated on 29 June this year. The Second Stage Reading of the Bill began on 12 October and is expected to conclude today. The Bill provides a number of new protections for migrant workers and includes significant penalties and fines for breaches of the legislation.

Ms Denise Charlton

I work for the Immigrant Council of Ireland and I wish to address my remarks to some of the issues that have arisen in our services. Approximately 6,000 immigrants use our services annually. It is very welcome that some of the issues which have arisen through this process have been considered in the Employment Permits Bill and are being examined in the legislative review being carried out by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

The first issue that arises is family reunification due to the discretionary nature of the system and the absence of a statutory right. Given the bureaucratic nature of some of the application systems, there can be lengthy delays. It is also problematic that there are no criteria for non-marital couples. We have consistently seen the issue of the absence of automatic rights of access to the labour market arise. Other problems include a lack of protection for victims of domestic violence, particularly those on dependent spouse visas, and the absence of an independent right of appeal. There are limited definitions relating to the family and there can be a high level of refusals of visitors' visas. While the Minister's remarks on Second Stage of the Employment Permits Bill indicating an intention to provide automatic rights for some migrant families, including access to the labour market, were very welcome, no such provisions appear in the text of the Bill. The matter is within the remit of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, which has indicated in its consultation process that it will consider family reunification in the future. While that is welcome, we consider the need to put family reunification on a statutory footing to be urgent.

Permission to remain in the State and the lack of opportunity for permanent residency are other issues which have been noted in our services. While permanent residency is often achieved through citizenship, there can be lengthy delays in the process and citizenship is not always the preferred route. While the Employment Permits Bill and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform's legislative review point to opportunities for permanent residency, the content of the Bill indicates that these will depend on renewable permits. Permanency will not be offered from the outset.

Another issue is the restriction on access to education by children of migrants who may have been working in the State for a considerable period of time. Very often, fees for those from outside the EU are prohibitive. The main concern for students presenting in our services, particularly those who are here in the longer term, is the right to work. There has recently been a restriction on part-time students. While the rationale of regulating the sector is welcome, the impact may be to push students into the informal economy. The regulation of exploitative employers might be a more appropriate way to deal with exploitation in the system. Family reunification is also an issue for students whose spouses or partners may not have permission to come to the State. The opportunity to change status on completion of studies is also an issue, although there are indications in the Bill and the proposed regulations that the approach in this area may change.

Exploitation is an issue that constantly presents in our services and it is well covered in the media. People are aware of low and inadequate pay, lack of sick leave and holidays, abuse, harassment, redundancy, lack of opportunities to regularise status, protection and possibilities for discrimination on foot of the work permits system and ownership of labour. We see problems in these areas on a daily basis. While we welcome the provisions in the Employment Permits Bill to increase sanctions and make changes to offer increased protection, we are concerned at the indication by the labour inspectorate that provision for 50 inspectors would be more appropriate than for the current 31. The Bill indicates, however, that the question of the ownership of labour is yet to be resolved, particularly for low skilled workers.

Ms Delphine O’Keeffe

I have discussed previously with the committee the experience of the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland in the context of trafficking and bonded labour. I will, however, highlight the aspects of the Bill we feel will allow these practices to continue.

If we seek merely to formalise the current, inflexible work permits system, we will allow circumstances to continue to obtain in which people go undocumented. I point to the continued distinction between so-called low skilled and high skilled workers in the Bill. So-called low skilled workers are just as necessary to the economy and we will have to provide them with the same rights as other workers if we are to acknowledge this fact. The fact that they work in unregulated, low wage sectors, including private homes and the care industry, should not mean they do not have rights. It is important to remove the distinction between the two groups of workers. Perhaps later we might discuss certain recommendations that we have regarding the Bill.

I am the legislation and public affairs officer for the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU. I am also the worker delegate from Ireland to the International Labour Organisation and I have represented workers throughout the world on the topic of migration. The most recent conference related to the rights of workers on fishing vessels. We have much international experience in regard to the abuse of workers in particular sectors.

I thank the Chairman and members for the opportunity to comment on the Employment Permits Bill 2005. Many of our observations are relevant to the committee's discussion and relate to trafficking, smuggling and forced labour. The majority of employers in Ireland do not exploit their workforce and have been put at a serious disadvantage by those who do. Moreover, the majority of migrants have a reasonably good experience in Ireland. It has been positive for them and their families. For some, including many Filipino domestic employees, working here allows them to make a major contribution to their communities at home. From our perspective, therefore, migration is positive for us and for the workers and their families, both in Ireland and in the countries from which they come.

My experience is that it can be difficult to discuss the issue of forced labour. People regularly say there is no evidence that it takes place. An employer who recognises a worker's right to belong to a trade union is unlikely to believe it acceptable to exploit him or her through forced labour. It is difficult, therefore, for the ICTU to gather statistics. I am fairly confident, however, that forced labour is happening in Ireland because it is no different to any other state. The absence of a witness who can testify to being forced to work in any type of employment should not leave us blind to reality or offer an excuse to avoid introducing effective legislation.

We have concerns that some aspects of the Employment Permits Bill 2005 may make it easier for those who want to exploit workers, engage in human trafficking or force people into particular types of employment. Of particular concern is that the Bill continues to tie employees to employers in so far as workers must rely on their employers to apply for permits each year. This places workers in a very vulnerable situation. They know that if they stand up and say the way in which they are being treated is unacceptable and unfair, their employer may not apply for their permit at the end of the year or, even worse, retaliate by sacking them. The legislation should allow for only one type of permit, that which is applied for and held by the employee.

It is inappropriate and dangerous for workers that employment permits can be applied for by employment agencies. Current regulation is so ineffective that an employer outside Ireland could apply for permits and then place people here to fill the relevant vacancies. This is a frightening and appalling prospect. Legislation in place in other jurisdictions is specifically designed to prevent this type of looseness. We would not like to see an emergence of the gang master phenomenon, for an example of which we need only consider what happened to the cockle shell pickers in Britain. We should be vigilant in our legislation to make sure the same cannot ever happen here.

The legislation also provides inadequate protections against discrimination in employment. The only enforceable wage standard is the minimum wage. The Bill does not even recognise employment regulation orders or other joint labour committees findings. A guarantee of receipt of the minimum wage does not represent fair treatment for most migrant workers. Many find that their Irish colleagues are being paid far more than the minimum wage.

The legislation must include effective safeguards and supports for migrant workers. One particularly useful provision states that the employer must, prior to the engagement of a migrant worker, set out the wages and terms and conditions relating to his or her employment. However, there is no way of enforcing this stipulation and some migrant workers may find that they are presented with a completely different contract on arrival in the State. The voluntary arrangement in regard to such matters, which has worked well for us in the past, simply does not work when it comes to the placement of migrant workers. It is possible that this voluntary system worked in the past because we all, employers and employees alike, lived in our communities. More often than not, this is no longer the case. Many employers operate on contracts and it is difficult to enforce safeguards effectively through a voluntary system in which the only enforceable wage standard is the minimum wage.

I welcome the introduction of restrictions on the retention of passports. It is particularly useful that these provisions also relate to a range of documents other than passports. In the case of GAMA, for example, some workers had documentation on their bank accounts stolen. These provisions mean that this can no longer happen. Again, however, one wonders where the safeguards are in this regard. To whom can one complain if one's employer does not comply with these stipulations? What guarantee is there that a worker who complains will have his or her documents returned? At present, such a worker may complain to the Minister who can then initiate a prosecution, which is a slow and unsatisfactory process.

There is no protection for workers who complain. The system relies on the assumption that a worker who is treated badly will leave and perhaps take a case to the Labour Court or the equality tribunal. However, such a course of action requires one to be able to leave one's current crummy employment and wait 18 months to have one's case heard. A person must be destitute for those 18 months or until his or her residence is up, in which case he or she will be deported because there is no right to take another job, not even where the worker in question can show evidence of employer abuse. These circumstances provide a loophole through which workers' rights can fall. The habitual residence requirement in regard to social welfare benefit also militates against migrant workers taking action against employers. I understand that it takes 15 months for migrant workers to qualify for unemployment benefit. This means that workers who are the victims of exploitation can spend a year destitute and possibly homeless as a consequence of standing up for their rights or they can leave the country.

We all wish to ensure that Ireland does not become a haven for traffickers or smugglers or those who perpetrate these types of abuses. However, a major concern in this regard is that the legislation treats the victims who have been trafficked or forced into labour here in the same way as exploitative employers are treated. This is not right. The perpetrators of these abuses must be convicted and imprisoned. We should not, however, threaten those who are forced into labour with the same penalties.

Will the delegates from the Department of Social and Family Affairs outline the recent developments, which have received much attention in the media, with regard to the habitual residence clause and welfare tourism? There are some question marks over the figures. I have seen some which suggest that of the 130,000 or 140,000 new workers from the accession countries, anywhere between 1% to 5% have applied for unemployment assistance.

I understand that a note of infringement was sent from the European Commission to the Department with regard to certain aspects of the social welfare benefits system. What specific changes has the Department made as a result of this? Can the delegates give a general flavour of the further changes that are planned? It is obvious that something else will happen in this area. What is their general experience with regard to social welfare officers throughout the State? Is more latitude required in the area of emergency payments for new workers from the accession countries?

Mr. Ó Raghallaigh

The Department introduced a significant change in the designation of one-parent family payment and family income supplement, which were treated as purely internal to Ireland until now. Their designation has been changed and the Department now treats them, in the same manner as child benefit, as family benefits. As a result, workers coming to Ireland from other countries may qualify for these benefits immediately as they are not subject to the habitual residence condition. This will be of particular benefit to people with children and lone parents in low wage employment.

In terms of future changes, I am reluctant to look into the mind of the Minister or to indicate what he will do. He has, however, met representatives of several organisations, including the Migrant Rights Centre, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism, which put certain points to him to which he is anxious to respond where possible. From memory, the first point was that workers — perhaps with work permits — who find, for whatever reason, that they can no longer work if they lose their jobs, are being exploited or for other reasons. The habitual residence condition applies to such workers and some may be found not to be habitually resident and, therefore, not entitled to a payment, while for others it can take some time before an alternative, such as unemployment benefit or insurance payment, can be made to them. We are examining what measures the Department could take to speed up the processing of claims in circumstances of this nature. This will probably be the main change to emerge in future.

I mentioned that the operation of the habitual residence condition is being reviewed in the Department. We expect to have the review completed by the end of the year and its outcome will be considered by the Minister. If changes are needed, he will have the opportunity to do so in the Social Welfare Bill early in the new year.

A number of different sources have suggested that the Department intends to reduce the two-year period applicable before the habitual residence condition is met. Is such a change on the cards?

Mr. Ó Raghallaigh

I do not believe so. As I noted, determinations on the habitual residence condition are made on the basis of the five factors which the European Court of Justice set out for us. The two-year rule is not one of these factors. Its purpose is that the Department makes a presumption that a person who has been here for less than two years does not satisfy the habitual residence condition. This places an onus on the applicant to prove to the Department that he or she is truly habitually resident. If a person has been here for more than two years, we do not make a presumption that he or she does not satisfy the condition. However, he or she must still satisfy the Department with regard to the five factors on which it makes its decision. This process must appear complex to members, who may wonder why the Department applies it. The reason is to enable us to process the very large volume of claims we receive for unemployment assistance, one-parent family payment and so forth in a rational manner. I mentioned that 90% of claims for these payments are decided at the point of claim. I refer here, for example, to local offices. The two-year rule helps us do this, in other words, a straightforward, clear-cut case can be indicated by this measure.

Reading between the lines, Mr. Ó Raghallaigh appears to be indicating that no dramatic changes can be expected in the social welfare system as it pertains to workers from the accession countries.

Mr. Ó Raghallaigh

That is a fair conclusion. The habitual residence condition, as currently operated by the Department, does not give rise to widespread problems, as the statistics I circulated indicate.

That is my point. The figures available to me indicate that of the 133,258 migrant workers from the new accession countries, only 1,300 have applied for unemployment benefit or assistance. Of the latter, approximately half have obtained assistance.

Mr. Ó Raghallaigh

That is correct.

Mr. Ó Raghallaigh is indicating, therefore, that while we do not have a major problem, the Department will introduce emergency measures as it considers necessary.

Mr. Ó Raghallaigh

Yes, and the Department may also tackle certain administrative issues. I mentioned that if a worker who has paid social insurance in Poland or another country comes here and pays social insurance, the social insurance in the two countries can be aggregated. The administrative process for completing this task can take some time. It is obviously more difficult for officials to deal with our counterparts in eastern Europe than it is for them to deal with our counterparts in the United Kingdom, where most of these kinds of issues arose in the past. We are very anxious that administrative difficulties and language barriers should not militate against a worker receiving his or her entitlements. It is in this area that the Minister is interested in making progress if possible.

I will first open the discussion to members but representatives of the Migrant Rights Centre and Immigrant Council of Ireland will also have an opportunity to comment on any of the issues that have arisen thus far.

As I must meet our Australian colleagues at 3 p.m., I apologise in advance for leaving early. Mr. Ward stated that 31 inspectors are responsible for investigating compliance with labour laws. What level of exploitation has the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment encountered? How many prosecutions have taken place in this area?

Mr. Ward

The Department carries out approximately 5,000 inspections per annum. In the vast majority of cases in which we find a breach of law, the matter can be quickly resolved with the employer in question. In a small number of cases, approximately 20 or 25 per annum, we find it necessary to prosecute the employer. Since the arrival of large numbers of migrant workers, this issue has become much more complex in that some unscrupulous employers gain a major advantage from exploiting the difference between the minimum wage in Ireland and that available in the countries from which migrants come. This offers an opportunity to make large amounts of money. In these circumstances, the Department no longer encounters the type of casual offences it used to but finds deliberate, sophisticated exploitation of the wage differences to which I referred. The process of investigating and prosecuting breaches of this type is much more complex and securing redress is difficult.

The environment in which labour inspectors are operating has changed substantially in recent years, which is the reason they produced a discussion document earlier in the year. This appeared before the investigation into the GAMA company and was based on previous experience with other investigations. The document proposes a large number of changes which could improve matters, including the appointment of additional inspectors and legal and accounting expertise to enable the labour inspectorate to be more effective in dealing with these kinds of sophisticated, planned operations.

While I welcome the delegations, I am not sure why the joint committee is having this discussion. Members have already met some of the witnesses and Deputies have had an opportunity to speak on the Employment Permits Bill. We will also have an opportunity to make amendments to the Bill on Committee and Report Stages. The debate on the Bill is the correct forum in which to discuss issues of this nature. For this reason, I am not sure why the delegations are before the joint committee again. While I am aware that the issue impacts on citizens of EU member states, it has a tenuous link to the work programme of the joint committee.

Having said that, the witnesses raised many interesting issues. Deputy Allen already asked about prosecutions. At its previous meeting, the work of committee became bogged down when we failed to obtain figures to show the extent of human trafficking, forced labour and coercion. We do not appear to have been able to shed light on these matters in the interim. The Garda National Immigration Bureau had a central role in this but it is not represented at this meeting. As I read that this was the third most prevalent international crime, the probability is that it happens here because it happens in every other country in the western part of the EU. However, we are stuck at that stage and we still have no figures to give us some idea of its extent. If it occurs, however, that is a bad development and it requires our attention.

On the previous occasion, I raised the issue of prosecutions. Ms Harriet Harman, MP, addressed the Irish Institute of European Affairs in May. She pointed out that there were difficulties with prosecution and that the UK had not passed into law conventions that would allow for prosecutions because of those difficulties. I would like the witnesses to add to that discussion. Have there been any convictions? The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is supposed to have a prosecution panel. Has it prosecuted anybody?

I am aware that the issue of work permits is separate. I am, however, interested in the general issue. Have there been any convictions under the heading of carriers' liability, which was introduced recently? Is this really boiling down to a lot of conventions and laws, with no implementation or enforcement or justice for people? Are we dealing with a raft of bureaucracy, with no enforcement and no details to prove whether a problem exists in this country?

Ms Charlton referred to the problems caused by the limited definition of the family. Perhaps that could be expanded upon. Is she referring to the definition we have of the family based on marriage? She also stated that there should be decoupling of employees and employers in the context of work permits. I do not see how that can happen. An employee is an employee because there is an employer. Equally, an employer is an employer because there is an employee. They are linked. Is she saying that employees should be able to apply for jobs having described their abilities and qualifications, been given a work permit and welcomed into the country? Is there not a danger that this rails against our economic policy, which is to try to create a system of employers coming into the country rather than possibly bringing in unemployment? I would have thought that the latter is a danger.

Ms Charlton

On limited definition, there are a couple of issues that arise. One relates to non-marital families and the possibility of them applying for family reunification. In some of our policy documents we made recommendations regarding some of the precedents in the UK, particularly in respect of same sex couples or non-marital couples. That is one aspect of limited definition that arises.

Regarding family reunification, limited definition is key and we currently have approximately 30 cases where residency has been granted but there are difficulties because those involved are not married. Other issues that are more prevalent in the services relate to the lack of family reunification being on a statutory footing. Some of our proposals would have recommended at least the same rights for economic migrants as those which exist for refugees and that, at the very least, there should be a statutory right for limited family members, be they spouses or children. Some of the migrant communities would also argue that the definition of the nuclear family is very limited and that this is an issue for them.

In the context of same sex couples, if somebody has a work permit, does Ms Charlton believe they should be able to apply to reunify under the heading of family reunification?

Ms Charlton

We would argue that there should be equality under the legislation, regardless of whether it is for same sex partners or for a couple who are married. There are discretionary ways of coming into the State. If one comes under the work permit system, one can apply for one's spouse to come into the country. If one is on a working visa or working authorisation, one can also apply for one's spouse to enter. The timeframes for these are different. Different rights apply to different categories.

Is Ms Charlton talking about same sex couples and non-marital families?

Ms Charlton

I am referring to non-marital families. We believe they should have equal rights. There seems no reason that should not be the case.

Was the Deputy asking about the ownership of labour in the second part of his question?

Yes, the decoupling of employers and employees and how one would change the existing Bill where the employer applies on behalf of the employee.

Ms Charlton

Where the employee would apply on his or own behalf?

In the proposed Bill, the employee will have possession of the work permit. Is that not the case?

Ms Charlton

However, he or she will not have ownership of it.

Ms Charlton

Mr. Seán Murray might be able to clarify the position but our understanding of the content of the Bill in respect of certain categories is that although individual migrants possess the piece of paper that outlines the terms and conditions, they will not own their own labour. The employer will still be applying for that permit and, therefore, we will still have a situation where we will have bonded labour and all the difficulties that have been raised in that regard.

Our understanding of the Bill is that it puts what is currently in place on a statutory footing. That is very welcome. However, for some categories of workers within the work permit system there is still an issue around ownership of labour. Various recommendations have come forward to the effect that, even after a certain length of time, somebody should be able to apply for ownership of their own labour and change employers. That would be the minimum. We are hugely concerned that where there is a lack of ownership of labour and there is exploitation, there should be an automatic right to change employers and protection in that regard. There is a precedent with new member state nationals. We are aware that there must be flexibility within a labour market and that there must be controls regarding the numbers applying for access to that labour market. There is free access to the labour market for new member state nationals. All we are asking is why the work permits that are allocated are not allocated to individual employees.

With respect to Deputy Andrews's opinion on this matter, we raised it two weeks ago and made a decision, as a committee, to invite representatives of the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Social and Family Affairs and Enterprise, Trade and Employment to come before us to discuss the specifics relating to these issues. We made it clear that there would be some crossover with regard to this. The reason we did that is that any one committee will deal with any one of the Departments on a particular Bill.

I take the point but we got stuck on a number of issues on the previous occasion and we are no further illuminated now than we were then. I have put that question to the witnesses and perhaps the Chair should allow them to answer.

The Deputy should wait until we have heard them.

I will wait to hear what they have to say.

In some cases, the people have made presentations and that is as far as they have got. One of the problems I have with this area is that there has not been any integration between the Departments — with regard, in the first instance, to legislation — when dealing with migrants and immigrants in general. It seems that Departments purposely deal with issues solely within their own remits. Second, there is not much integration——

I accept the Chair's point but this is appropriate for the committees to deal with and not for the Committee Stage of a Bill. I am trying to get to the bottom of the issues of databases, figures and prosecutions. I would have thought that the Garda National Immigration Bureau would be the appropriate body to provide those.

The only point I would make is that we agreed on this two weeks ago.

I will direct my question to Mr. Ó Raghallaigh. It refers to a case that came to my attention recently regarding somebody from Ireland who went to work in Australia and who returned home because things did not work out. This person had occasion to apply for unemployment assistance. The individual in question returned in July and, as yet, has not been successful in resolving the residency issue. That surprises me, given the problems I have seen with people who have entered on work permits or immigrants who apply for unemployment assistance or residency. Irish people returning from outside the EU are clearly eligible from a means test perspective, but the residency issue seems to be a factor in debarring them. They have not been successful so far.

Mr. Ó Raghallaigh

Having status as an Irish citizen does not help a person to acquire habitual residence status. Either one is habitually resident in Ireland or one is not. Even if we wished to have a rule to favour Irish citizens above EU or other citizens, we would not be allowed to establish one. In general, a person returning from abroad who has an intention to remain here permanently will be accepted as being habitually resident unless he or she has ties to another country.

While I do not know anything about the particular case to which Deputy Kirk referred, it may be of help for him to know that missionaries who return to Ireland having spent years in Africa are subject to the habitual residence condition which they have tended to satisfy from the day they returned. They do not satisfy the condition because they are missionaries or Irish citizens but because they have a permanent intention to reside here into the future. It is a question of the conditions I mentioned earlier. Citizenship is not taken into account at all.

I am concerned about this issue. The case to which I referred is genuine from what I know about it. A person has returned to Ireland and his or her financial position is not what he or she would like it to be. While the criteria of the means test have been met, he or she continues to be refused unemployment assistance in October having returned to the country in July. It seems unduly harsh.

Mr. Ó Raghallaigh

I cannot speak on an individual case.

I accept that.

Mr. Ó Raghallaigh

If it is the case that the person has returned and is unable to meet the five conditions, the law is the law and he or she will not be entitled to unemployment assistance.

Ms O'Keeffe and Ms Charlton, I ask you to comment in light of Mr. Ó Raghallaigh's remarks on social welfare payments. I have seen the PPS figures as well. I have been informed that in my home town of Dungarvan, which has a population of approximately 8,000, there may be between 1,500 and 2,000 accession workers. While there is a new shopping centre and other infrastructure being built, it is still indicative of a very substantial level of people coming into the country. While I have not spoken to the local social welfare officer, can you contradict what I have said? Is that your experience? I was quoted numbers of approximately 520 using the migrant rights centre. Does that correlate with your experience of accession workers having problems?

Ms O’Keeffe

While the vast majority of migrant workers do not have problems, those on work permits will find it very difficult to prove they intend to remain in the country in the long term. A permit is only valid for one year. While a person may have left everything behind and come here intending to stay on, it is extremely difficult for him or her to satisfy the habitual residency condition

There is also an issue of perception and perhaps the numbers do not tell the whole story. While social welfare involves sick pay also, people are having trouble accessing the two weeks to cover them if they have the flu or other illnesses. Consequently, they drag themselves to work even though they are less than fit to perform. The figures on the number of workers who have been granted sick pay may tell us that they are either extraordinarily healthy or under the impression that they cannot apply. The message which is most pervasive is incorrect, as we pointed out to the committee meeting on the free movement of workers. As people feel they cannot access payments, they do not apply. They see it as a fool's errand.

Whether one speaks to a member of the diplomatic corps of one of the three countries from which the most significant numbers of new workers have come or Mr. Niall Crowley of the Equality Authority, the main issue is access to information on rights. I hear again and again of the difficulty of getting information on employment and legal rights and social welfare benefits. I am told that while there are some leaflets available in other languages, they do not seem to be getting through to people. Do you agree with that, Ms Lynch?

Absolutely.

The meetings I have had have indicated that this is a problem across Departments and organisations. Can someone speak to that?

Ms Charlton

Our organisation was established to address the lack of accessible information. The environment is changing rapidly for different categories of migrants, which means people accessing our services are trying to negotiate the system and searching for information, which we provide. We must constantly provide information in accessible languages and formats and consider the capacity of people to engage with the information. An obvious answer is the need to fund non-governmental organisations which provide the information. Currently, there is no funding line for NGOs or organisations like ours and the migrant rights centre which provide a great deal of the information on rights and entitlements which is available. It is a question of providing for a continuous stream of information which can adapt whenever there is a policy update or legislative change. People often tell us they find it very difficult to engage with various State service providers. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform can be very problematic to get through to, a circumstance which I am aware is under review. It is very difficult practically for people to find out about and access their rights and entitlements.

An issue which arises in our services relating to the habitual residency condition is pre-departure information. Very often, new member state nationals are unaware of the cost of living in Ireland and the difficulties of paying a month's rent and accessing health care. They may arrive in difficult circumstances with little funding, which conditions are not always alleviated by immediate access to work.

Do you recommend providing information at source?

Ms Charlton

Pre-departure information. We have a public policy of recruiting people to address labour shortages and we need to provide accurate information about the cost of living in Ireland.

Another issue which arises in relation to the habitual residency condition involves the NGO infrastructure to address homelessness, including the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. Child benefit issues present in our services, for example. Having said that, we have communicated the impact of the habitual residency condition and the hardships it entails to the Department and are in dialogue with it. We are very hopeful about the review the Minister has undertaken to pursue and look forward to further discussions early in the new year.

Mr. Ó Raghallaigh, has the Department considered providing information at source?

Mr. Ó Raghallaigh

We have not looked at it, but FÁS provides information in Poland through its EURES network. Its advice to workers coming to Ireland is that they should each have approximately €2,000 to meet the initial costs they will face.

We are examining the possibility of translating the Department's leaflets into other languages in response to the fact that we have so many customers for whom English is not the first language.

Mr. Ward

The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment accepts fully the points which have been made about information and its importance. The Department has information in ten languages and on the web. The Department's review document of last January recognised the need for a major information campaign and the need for a sophisticated approach. A person has been assigned to design an information programme for the difficult to reach people and into which the Department hopes to invest significant resources.

In my experience, they stick together and integration is very limited in many cases. They do not mix and one cannot blame them. There is a language barrier but the information must be brought out to them. It is not as easy as issuing a leaflet printed in the home language.

Ms O’Keeffe

I agree that information is key and the point about people being difficult to reach is a vital one. It was suggested that when the PPS number is issued, basic information and contact numbers of organisations could be provided. Migrants might be more likely to approach those organisations such as the Migrant Rights Centre of Ireland or the Immigration Council of Ireland sooner than they would go to an official body. It is important that the information reaches them. The Migrant Rights Centre of Ireland is producing an information booklet for migrant workers to keep on their person but, as Ms Charlton said, funding is an issue. It is being produced in English only at present because we were unable to have it translated but we hope to do so further down the line.

Has the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform any opinion with regard to a right to information for migrants?

Mr. Burns

In the case of EU citizens the amount of information provided by the Department is very limited with the good reason that the Department has very little dealings with EU citizens as they are not required to register with the Garda national immigration bureau. From an immigration point of view they are extremely straightforward as they are entitled to move through border controls on production of a valid passport or ID card from another member state. The Department's contacts with EU citizens in that area are rather limited. A new European directive on free movement of EU citizens will be implemented during next year. This will involve legislation and the Department will provide information. The provision of services to EU citizens is mostly done by other Departments and they will have the most interaction with them.

In the case of non-EU citizens, we accept the information provided by the Department is not a good as it should be. It will be examined in the context of developing the immigration and residence Bill and the development of more formalised schemes for admission of people and the conditions associated with admission.

I thank Mr. Burns. In my experience the approach of Departments dealing with immigrants can be disjointed and somewhat unco-ordinated, notwithstanding the efforts of FÁS in home countries. Does any Department ever take the lead with regard to migrants or do separate Departments do their own thing?

Mr. Ó Raghallaigh

Departments deal with the particular issue for which they have responsibility. However, the Department of Social and Family Affairs would be interested in working with NGOs who have direct contact with people. It might be worth pursuing the idea of giving out information packs when issuing PPS numbers.

Does Ms Lynch wish to make a comment?

This is about personal rights in the context in which the person finds themselves. A person might not even know which Department to approach for information. To return to my example of a person who is sick, this would create a crossover between a few Departments, particularly if a person is sick as a result of an accident in the workplace. In ICTU we try to put them in context, for instance, with a guide for domestic workers which highlights the type of rights relevant to domestic workers.

I refer to Deputy Andrews's comments about the numbers in forced labour. It worries me that this number is not known, nor is the number of domestic workers in Ireland known. Nobody comes into Ireland as a domestic worker. They could be a care worker, for instance. The fact that nothing is known about the numbers in forced labour should not come as any surprise because we do not keep data or figures on anything. However, this should not paralyse us and prevent us taking action.

In terms of rights to information it would be more helpful if we were to collect the rights relevant to the worker's particular circumstance. For example, I receive many calls from officials on the topic, unfortunately, of workers from EU member states who have died. Information is requested on the rights of the family to have the body returned and the responsibilities of the employer in these circumstances. Even for me it is difficult to know which Department to start with and I am sitting at my desk without having to deal with the issues of a bereavement. In my opinion, rights in a context make more sense and are more accessible across a Department rather than each Department doing its own thing.

Reference was made to the difficulty of accessing the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform where immigrant issues are concerned. Speaking as a Deputy I regard it as nightmarish. It is very difficult to speak to the right person and to get through to the Department in some cases. People have informed me that their efforts to access the right person have failed miserably on many occasions. To follow on what Ms Lynch said, one would presume the first place to go would be the immigration affairs section of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. However, many necessary events are not dealt with by the Department. Is a clearing house system necessary to deal with immigration issues, generally speaking?

Mr. Burns

I will address the two issues raised by the Chairman, the co-ordination between Departments and the particular problem of contacting our Department. Earlier this year the Government approved the setting up of INIS, which is immigration and naturalisation service, with the purpose of creating improved links between the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department of Foreign Affairs in the area of visa issuance and between the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment in the area of work permits and other employment permit matters. Work is ongoing in that area to improve customer service so that rather than the need to deal with two Departments, a single service would be available to them with all the administration taking place in the background and a single answer provided.

Will Mr. Burns explain the detail of the scheme? Does it just entail a bank of telephone lines or is it people dealing with theplethora of issues in one specific area?

Mr. Burns

Specifically in the visa area, certain parts of the Department of Foreign Affairs dealing with visas here in Dublin are transferring to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It is intended to have a more co-ordinated operation for the issuing of visas which it is hoped will improve the service. There will be better connections with the embassies involved in issuing visas. IT developments in this area will come on stream in approximately a year's time and will, hopefully, also improve the speed of issuance of visas. The Department is in discussions with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, in which discussions my colleague, Mr. Seán Murray is involved. They are looking at how the new application process will operate in a more streamlined fashion than heretofore. It will contain IT elements but we hope to make improvements more speedily than waiting for IT developments to take place.

I was struck by something the Minister for Social and Family Affairs said recently when he stated that over the next ten years, it is likely the country will require 600,000 new immigrant workers as a result of the growing economy. This situation must be seriously examined. I ask the three Departments represented here today to take away the message I have received from Mr. Niall Crowley all the way to members of the Diplomatic Corps because that is where they perceive the problem to be. It would make everyone's life easier if there was co-ordination between the Departments. I ask them to consider the situation in light of what the Minister for Social and Family Affairs said recently and the numbers being referred to.

Ms O’Keeffe

Ireland needs these people but we also need to look at the public perception. We must go beyond the idea of just needing them and acknowledge that we wanted them to come here and this informs much of the debate. Much of the talk is about different categories of worker, the number of weeks they can stay and what their rights are. If we acknowledge that they are needed, we must also acknowledge that they will stay in the country. That will provide the answers to questions about family reunification and what type of rights they should be given.

I do not blame Departments as much as Governments.

I am not blaming anyone. I am just saying it might be better.

I have appalling difficulties dealing with this problem on behalf of individual people. I share the Chairman's views in that regard. However, the basic problem is that we did not have an immigration policy. There is no document or policy on how many or what category of people we want or on how long they should be allowed to stay. That is the work of Government. We should ask this Government and all Governments in the future to set out a clear and transparent policy. People would not have as many difficulties if that were done.

Part of the problem at present is that people, at least those who come to me, do not know the rules. They not only have great difficulty communicating with the agencies, particularly the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, but they do not know the rules or the policy. Perhaps that will be clarified in the new legislation. As legislators, we and the Government must take a knock on the head for that.

I agree with the Deputy. Did the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform find any evidence of organised crime in the area of human trafficking for prostitution? Ms Byrne referred to that in her analysis.

Mr. Byrne

The Garda authorities inform us that there is no evidence that Irish nationals are involved in criminal activity in the area of trafficking. There is some evidence of involvement by criminals from outside the jurisdiction, but it is scarce. The Garda accepts there are difficulties in this area.

There is the problem that victims are afraid to approach the authorities. Trafficking, by its nature, is so clandestine it is difficult to detect. As I said in my submission, the Garda has a number of operations in place to try to deal with the problems. They have identified targets and suspects. Another objective in the operation is to try to gather more information on the extent of the problem. The Department has funded Ruhama, which was before the committee on a previous occasion. We have also funded the employment of a trafficking co-ordinator who will do some research in that area.

I thank everyone for coming here today. The committee appreciates it. We will now try to decide how to proceed. We proposed at the last meeting to do a report on the issue of migrant workers and the problems they face. We will put that to the committee in the next week or two. We will consider any further information sent to the committee. Our consultant will examine all those issues and everything will be included in what we are doing now.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.35 p.m. and adjourned at 3.40 p.m. until 12.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 2 November 2005.

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