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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 10 Apr 2008

Lisbon Treaty: Public Deliberations.

Apologies have been received from Deputies Barry Andrews, Mary O'Rourke and Michael McGrath and Senator John Hanafin. The issue is the public deliberations of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs on the Lisbon treaty. On behalf of the committee, I welcome everyone to this historic sitting, which is the first time an Oireachtas committee has sat in formal session outside the Houses of the Oireachtas. The purpose of this exercise is to engage in a dialogue with the public and for the public to engage with its elected public representatives and experts representing those for and against the Lisbon treaty. We hope to have a good debate. We will hear from a speaker who is for and a speaker who is against the treaty. They will each be given about 15 minutes to speak. Questions and answers will then be fielded by Members of the Oireachtas who are present.

All Members of the Oireachtas have a right to attend the committee meeting and have been invited to attend. The Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Scrutiny, Deputy John Perry, is present. We will tell everyone more about that at a later stage. We also welcome our speakers, Mr. Roger Cole from the Peace and Neutrality Alliance and Mr. Brendan Kiely from the Irish Alliance for Europe.

One of the things we are trying to encourage is a debate on the issues in the Lisbon treaty. We have had a debate on various other treaties in the past. Very often, many people indicated that even at the time of voting they did not have sufficient information to make an objective decision. With that in mind, the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs has decided to hold meetings throughout the country, of which this is the first, so this meeting is making history. Five more meetings will be held throughout the regions, with the possibility of two additional meetings being held at a later stage. The aim is to bring to the people the workings of the Houses of the Oireachtas, especially in respect of European legislation, and the need for the public and ourselves to be as familiar with it as possible.

Before we begin, I ask the speakers to announce themselves and their role.

Mr. Roger Cole

I am Roger Cole. I am chair of the Peace and Neutrality Alliance.

I am Senator Feargal Quinn. I have been a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs since its creation five or six years ago. I have not yet made up my mind about which way I will vote.

I am Senator Déirdre de Búrca. I am a Green Party Senator and its spokesperson on European affairs. I support the Lisbon treaty and am here to encourage people to support it.

I am Senator Paschal Donohoe. I am a Fine Gael Senator representing the constituency of Dublin Central and a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs. My party and I are advocating a "Yes" vote.

I am Deputy Joe Costello. I am the Labour Party spokesperson on European affairs. My party is recommending a "Yes" vote.

I am Deputy Timmy Dooley. I am Vice Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs and a Fianna Fáil Deputy from County Clare. My party also supports the treaty.

I am Deputy John Perry and I am a Fine Gael Deputy from Sligo. I am Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Scrutiny.

Mr. Brendan Kiely

I am Brendan Kiely and I am director of the Irish Alliance for Europe, which is promoting a "Yes" vote.

I am Senator Terry Leyden and I am from Roscommon. I am the Fianna Fáil spokesperson on European affairs in Seanad Éireann. I am also a member of the Council of Europe. I must confess before everyone here that I will be voting "Yes, Yes, Yes" to the Lisbon reform treaty.

I thank Dublin City University for allowing us to hold this session here. In particular, I thank the students union. We know that we are competing with a very high-powered social function in the precincts this evening and we especially thank it for coming along and participating. We know that those who have gone to the social function will be along very shortly.

I should also mention that the Minister for Foreign Affairs is an ex officio member of the committee. All MEPs have the right to attend and participate in committee meetings but they do not have the right to vote. The Minister has the right to vote. Members of the Irish delegation of the Council of Europe may attend and participate in meetings. All MEPs have been invited to attend and if there are any here present, they are welcome to join us on the platform and participate in the meeting.

There are two European affairs committees in the Houses of the Oireachtas. Deputy John Perry is Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Scrutiny. This is the committee that must go through all proposals, directives and legislation in detail, vet them, refer them to the various Departments that might be affected by them and approve them before they go to Europe.

I am Deputy Bernard Durkan. I am Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs, of which, for my sins, I have been a member since 1981. I have seen many changes, most of which have been for the better.

Prior to the meeting of the General Affairs and External Relations Council, the Minister for Foreign Affairs briefs the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs on the items for discussion, the decision on the agenda of the council meeting and the Government's approach in respect of these matters. This enables the committee to make its own views known in advance of the Minister's participation in EU council meetings. As I mentioned, the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Scrutiny carries out a different detail. Both committees have had a heavy commitment of meetings since they were formed in November. They are deeply engrossed in their work. I welcome Deputy Perry and I thank members of the committee and the participating experts from both sides of the argument.

The committee has devoted a large part of its work programme this year to the treaty. Since January, we have heard from representatives of the main social partners, the Union of Students in Ireland, the Irish Countrywomen's Association and, at our meeting in Leinster House this week, the Peace and Neutrality Alliance, PANA, the People's Movement and VoteNo.ie.

In February, the committee issued an interim report on the opinions on the treaty received to that point. Copies of the report are available this evening and can be handed out. At the end of this process, a couple of weeks prior to the referendum, the committee will put into print a report of its findings based on the information gleaned and responses received from the general public, which will be made available to the general public for perusal in the run-up to the referendum.

Each invited speaker may make a short opening speech of not more than 15 minutes. The Chair will invite the audience to ask questions and make comments to the committee and invited speakers. Questions will be taken in rounds of three or four as the case may be. I wish to make the proceedings as informal as possible. It is important that members of the public participate to the fullest possible extent and no one should feel afraid to raise an issue or ask a question.

Members of the audience who wish to speak will be invited by the Chair to take the floor and will each have up to three minutes speaking time. Prior to asking a question, a member of the audience shall give his or her name, organisation if applicable and the area where he or she is from for the purpose of reporting the proceedings. The Chairman will nominate the members of the committee and invited speakers to respond to the questions from members of the audience. Naturally, each Oireachtas Member on the platform will want to speak and will have an opportunity to do so. I intend to ensure fair play in the proceedings.

Proceedings of the sittings will be officially recorded, including contributions from members of the public. For the purpose of recording, we want to ensure that all mobile telephones are switched off, as we want an accurate recording for future reference. An official report of the sitting will be prepared and published on the website of the Houses of the Oireachtas. The report will include only the contributions of speakers recognised by the Chair. If someone interrupts or makes a contribution that has not been heralded, approved or accepted, it will not be reported. Comments or interruptions by members of the public other than those formally recognised by the Chair will not be included in the Official Report. All speakers from the floor should clearly state their names, as failure to do so will mean the exclusion of their contributions. Before commencing, speakers from the floor must take a seat at the microphones at the two tables set out in front. If people wish to speak at an appropriate time, they should indicate and will subsequently be assisted by the staff. A number of Oireachtas staff are in attendance and I welcome and thank them for coming along. I thank the gardaí who are present, the students' union and university staff.

I must give a notice of privilege. I draw the attention of guest speakers and members of the public to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege — the same privilege as when speaking in the Dáil or Seanad — but this privilege does not apply to those appearing before the committee or speaking at this sitting. Committee members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses of the Oireachtas or any official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The order in which guest speakers will contribute is decided by the toss of a coin. I call on our first speaker, Mr. Roger Cole, who will speak against the treaty.

Mr. Roger Cole

I was asked to address the committee a couple of days ago, when one of the people on the committee asked who I was and what PANA was about. As it was a reasonable question, I will also tell the audience. Like many people, I got my politics from my parents, who are now dead. My father was born in Belfast in 1903 and my mother was born in Portugal. The one thing they had in common was that, one having been born into the British Empire and the other into the Portuguese Empire, they did not like empires. I was brought up not to like empires, as it were. Given this background, if I believe the European Union is evolving into a European superstate or empire, it would be reasonable that I would not be in favour of that type of development.

In 1996, having been involved in the Irish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, a number of us decided to set up PANA, the central function of which was to advocate that Ireland should pursue an independent foreign policy through a reform of the United Nations and that we should advocate and defend the policy of Irish neutrality. These are the benchmarks against which we examine each and every treaty. The first treaty we campaigned against was the Amsterdam treaty. The Danes voted "No" on the Maastricht treaty, as a consequence of which they renegotiated it with EU leaders and gained a number of protocols, including a protocol excluding Denmark from the process of the militarisation of Europe. They stated that Denmark would not pay for or be involved in that process.

Our argument at the time of the Amsterdam treaty was essentially the same. If it was all right for the Danish people to get such a protocol, it should have been all right for us. It was not a blanket opposition to the EU as such, but we have never seen a rational argument for an institution that was originally sold to the Irish as a trading bloc to have a military dimension. We maintain this position.

The treaty being debated is essentially the same as that voted on by the French and the Dutch. There were high turnouts in each country and the "No" vote was quite strong. If anyone present votes "No" and goes on his or her summer holidays subsequently, I recommend going to France or Holland, as he or she would be welcomed by the people. Judging by the meetings I have attended elsewhere in Europe and the e-mails I have received from people in Britain and Austria in particular, anyone travelling to either would get a céad míle fáilte from the people.

Substantial numbers across Europe do not support the treaty. Public opinion polls asked people in all of the EU states whether they wanted to vote on the treaty by way of referenda. The average figure in each state was 75% in favour. All of the people of all EU states other than Ireland have clearly stated that they want to vote on the treaty by way of referenda, but they have been refused by their countries' political elites. We argue that the reason for this is simple. The treaty continues the process of transferring power from the people and our democratic national institutions to the institutions of the elite, namely, the European Parliament, the Council of Ministers and the European Court of Justice. Far from being some type of laughing stock across Europe, as has been the accusation, Ireland would be cheered to the rafters and become extremely popular among the ordinary people of Europe.

I will give an example. The man who stated that we would be a laughing stock is a Commissioner called Charlie McCreevy. The audience might have heard of him. I will cite excerpts from an article by a journalist called David Cronin, who is based in Brussels. He states that Charlie McCreevy is a Commissioner who may be earning approximately €250,000 per year, including perks. The Commissioner is certainly not poor. He has written to the German Government saying that the German post office has agreed to introduce unsuitably high minimum wages of €9.80 per hour. The reason for it is that another company, TNT, has paid its workers €2.03 less per hour. It says this is interfering with trade. That is in accord with the Laval judgment where a company from Estonia won the contract to build schools in Sweden and paid the Latvian workers substantially less than the agreed bargaining agreements in Sweden. European law is decided by the European Court of Justice which makes decisions in favour of employers. These are two examples of EU law being interpreted by the ECJ in such a way that they are a sustained attack on the wages and working conditions of ordinary people throughout Europe. If one is earning €250,000 per year, one does not care because one is speaking to others who make €250,000 per year and not ordinary people. People may have heard of the guy who received a 14% increase, €38,000. These people are in favour of this treaty.

I am not the only person who would argue that this treaty moves us towards a European superstate. I quote the President of the European Commission speaking at a press conference on the treaty:

Sometimes I like to compare the EU as a creation to the organisation of empires. We have the dimension of empire.

It is not some sort of crank or idiot arguing these cases. This is the kind of Europe they want. The Peace and Neutrality Alliance wants a partnership Europe, a partnership of European states without a legal dimension. We are essentially seeking a "No" vote so that the treaty can be renegotiated and we achieve the protocol that the Danes already have. There is no rationale or justification for the EU to have a military dimension.

Being an organisation called the Peace and Neutrality Alliance, it would be unreasonable not to believe in Irish neutrality. It is our contention that, with more than 1 million US troops having passed through Shannon Airport and aeroplanes landing at the airport that could well be carrying people to torture chambers but are not searched, this State is no longer neutral. It is in complete contravention of the Hague Convention of 1907, which clearly says that states that wish to be regarded as neutral in conflict and war cannot allow their territory to be used. The Swiss ambassador made the case that because of the Hague Convention there were no US planes landing in Zurich airport. It is not a question of defending neutrality, which is already dead, gone and buried.

With some exceptions, the main advocates of this treaty are the same people who support the war in Iraq. We know that these imperial wars, according to Dr. Stieglitz, a Nobel economics prize winner, are costing the US $3 trillion and the UK $6 billion. The overall cost is enormous.

The continuous commitment to war is causing the economic crisis we are in. That is the other reason we are opposed to the militarisation of Europe. This treaty continues the war trend. We are the ones being economically rational and arguing that war is not good for business, except the arms trade. A booklet produced by the Danish Transnational Institute, which analyses the major arms corporations, called Arming Big Brother, argues that the driving force behind much of the militarisation is the multinational arms companies based in Europe and America. These are the people making money out of this. Some people are in favour of the Lisbon treaty because it is good for the back pocket.

I will quote one clause from the treaty, the mutual solidarity clause, which is in Article 28A.7 of the treaty:

If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States.

Commitments and co-operation in this area shall be consistent with commitments under the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which, for those states that are members of it, remains the foundation of their collective defence and the forum for its implementation.

It used to be argued that the phrase "shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States" applied to countries such as Ireland that were so-called neutral countries. We are not neutral any longer and the specific character of Ireland is to be an active and enthusiastic supporter of George Bush's war, if it still refers to Ireland. Mr. Andrew Duff is an MEP and the chair of the European Parliament committee on the Lisbon treaty. He argues that mutual commitments in this treaty effectively mean that the western European Union nuclear or military alliance, whose assets and competencies have steadily been transferred to the EU, should now be abolished because the last remaining competency, mutual solidarity, has been shifted to the EU.

There are those who believe we should have mutual defence and that if Britain goes to war or is attacked, we should defend it because we have a mutual agreement. To celebrate our tenth anniversary we published a pamphlet by Theobald Wolfe Tone, called The Spanish War, written in 1790. He argued that in the case of a potential war between the Spanish and British empires, Ireland had no such mutual clauses or obligation to defend Britain because it was a separate kingdom with the same king and that Ireland should stay neutral. The commitment to Irish neutrality goes back to 1790. It is a long, well-established tradition and not something to do with the start of the Second World War. That is the tradition to which we belong and we do not believe that the Redmondite tradition should be restored, that once more we should defend not just the British empire, which now cannot be revived, but all the other empires which were lost during the 20th century. The French can tell you about torture in Algeria if you ask them.

These other states have powerful imperial traditions. They lost their empires and seek to come back together. We do not believe the Peace and Neutrality Alliance is in a position to tell the French, Dutch, Germans or British what to do. If they wish to get together to form a European army or EU battlegroups there is not much we can do but we can and should get a protocol to exclude us from this process.

This is essentially an idea and concept originally put forward by Wolfe Tone in 1790. As an Irish republican this is what I believe in. Michael Collins, the greatest of Fenians, argued in favour of accepting a treaty which he believed was a stepping stone to a united, independent, democratic Irish republic. We should not step off those stones. We should not move away from the long-term objective of establishing a united, independent, democratic Irish republic with our own independent foreign policies and we should not take a step towards a new empire.

I thank Mr. Cole. Mr. Brendan Kiely from the Irish Alliance for Europe will present the case in favour of the treaty.

Mr. Brendan Kiely

I thank the Chairman for his invitation and the members of the committee and its secretariat, particularly the clerk, for arranging this debate. It is an honour to be invited to address the first plenary of the committee to take place outside Leinster House. It is representative of the committee's commitment to ensure the importance of the treaty is shown to the Irish people.

The Irish Alliance for Europe represents a host of non-political organisations in the country who are campaigning for a "Yes" vote. Essentially, we represent Irish civil society including, among others, business, trade unions, farmers, environmentalists, lawyers, academics and students. Our genesis is from the Alliance for Europe which was established to fight for the ratification of the Nice treaty. It was felt then, as it is now, that putting the case for Ireland in Europe should not be left to political parties — no offence to the members present. We believe it is far too important for this. Europe's importance to Ireland is so wide ranging that it impacts on every sector of society and we have come together to put the case for this treaty in a way that transcends politics.

The alliance believes the Irish people are best served by an honest debate that focuses on facts and the actual detail of the treaty and what it really means for Ireland. It is regrettable that much of the debate thus far has been marked by scaremongering, misrepresentation of the facts and accusations of ulterior motives on both sides. As in our campaign, in my remarks this evening I will deal strictly in the truth about what is in the treaty, what is not in the treaty and what this decision means for us, the Irish people.

This evening, I will pose a number of questions about the treaty and Europe which I ask the audience to consider. I will outline the imperative for reform and answer the questions about why we need this treaty. I will then go on to speak of whether the EU is best equipped to deal with the challenges that face it in the 21st century, the role of the EU in the wider world, the challenge of creating EU institutions that work better and are closer to the people and the role of the treaty in securing Ireland's hard won prosperity.

Today's European Union has 27 member states. It is clear that such a Union cannot be run with machinery designed for a community of six, particularly when the challenges facing the Union today are completely different from those which confronted the original six members 51 years ago. This is the core reason the EU needs this reform treaty.

We are at the end of nearly 20 years of almost constant institutional reform. This treaty represents an end to the navel-gazing of the EU and allows it to tackle the problems of the 21st century. It was unanimously agreed between 27 sovereign states after being hammered out over the course of several years, a constitutional convention, two inter-governmental conferences, several presidencies and many late nights in Brussels. This treaty is the best possible deal for Ireland that could have arisen out of this process. It protects our vital interests and our voice in Europe. Most importantly, it allows Europe to move forward.

The Irish Alliance for Europe is not afraid to accept that this treaty is very similar to the constitutional treaty. We are confident in the deal that Ireland got because it was negotiated not only by our senior politicians, in particular by the outgoing and incoming Taoisigh who held the EU Presidency at the time, but by John Bruton, our former Taoiseach, who was a member of the Presidium of the Constitutional Convention, Pat Cox, who was President of the European Parliament, David O'Sullivan, who was the top civil servant of the European Commission, and Catherine Day, who was Director General in the European Commission section dealing with the environment. These are five Irishmen and one Irishwoman in the top six positions in Europe. Let us be frank, if it all came down to who was from the big countries, Pat Cox would have been on the Liberal backbenches in Strasbourg, David O'Sullivan would still have been a Third Secretary in Iveagh House and Catherine Day would still have been the EU information officer for IBEC.

Is Europe equipped to face the challenges of the 21st century? In the past ten years 500,000 women and children were trafficked into Europe. Let us think about that. In the first years of the 21st century we still have not solved the problem of human slavery. It should shame us that women and children are bought and sold for sex within our borders. In the past 12 months, €50 billion worth of drugs were imported into Europe by criminal gangs who for years have profited from human misery, the destruction of our communities and the undermining of our social fabric. Europe needs to be capable of dealing with these problems.

The Lisbon treaty extends co-operation into areas of border controls, police administration and crime prevention, equipping the Union with the potential to deal with issues such as the scourges of drugs, sex trafficking and cross-border crime. We know this can work. Last year, using provisions introduced in 1998 through the Amsterdam treaty, which Roger Cole mentioned, police forces working through EuroPol and EuroJust, arrested a paedophile in Spain, seized his computer and using information on his hard drive broke up one of the largest child sex offenders rings in Europe, making more than 500 arrests across the EU. How many children are now safe because of actions that could not have happened without the EU or the Amsterdam treaty against which so many people argued? Ireland has the best of both worlds with regard to this area of the treaty. We can opt in to any policy initiative while at the same time preserving our right to protect our unique legal system.

What of the issue of climate change? Scientists estimate that by 2030, the damage done by climate change will be irreversible. There is a real danger that in the next 50 years large parts of Ireland and the rest of coastal Europe will be uninhabitable because of the careless disregard we have shown for the planet since the Industrial Revolution. This is not scaremongering or alarmism. Recently, I attended a meeting in Cork, where I heard a local Deputy express his real fear that by 2050, within his lifetime, half of his constituency would be under water. Climate change is the single biggest threat to the future of our children and our grandchildren. However, we cannot leave it to them to deal with it. We must create the tools to the fix the problem of climate change now.

In six simple words, the Lisbon treaty makes combating climate change one of the fundamental objectives of the EU, equal in importance to the goals of peace and prosperity and the free movement of people, goods and services. It backs up these six words by extending the Union's areas of action to include energy, transport and the environment. It creates the imperative to deal with this problem and the means with which to do it.

We know the EU has been tremendously successful over 50 years in creating peace and prosperity for its peoples. The challenge for our grandparents was how to secure peace in Europe after the Second World War. For our parents, it was how to turn that peace into the chance of prosperity for all. For us, it is how we respond to the monumental challenges we face in the era of globalisation and interdependence and create a world fit to pass to our grandchildren. To many the Lisbon treaty is not exciting or sexy but it will allow us to take the machinery which has created the past 50 years of peace and prosperity and with the reform this treaty provides apply them to the challenges that will face us, the peoples of Europe, for the next 50 years. When the heroin that destroys our youth comes from poor Afghan farmers, when Europe is faced with an influx of refugees from Africa as a result of humanitarian crises, when pollution knows no borders, we can no longer pretend that the problems of others are not our concern and that Ireland can deal with these issues on its own. The Lisbon treaty creates the framework within which Europe will be able to address them. It does this in two ways. First, it creates the post of high representative of the European Union to deal with foreign affairs and security policy issues. This representative will be able to speak for the Union with a loud voice on the world stage. Second, the treaty strengthens the role of the European Union on the world stage by ensuring it is recognised as a legal personality. It allows the Union to enjoy the same status in international law as the European Community. This certainly does not mean the end of the nation state, the dawn of a federal state or an empire.

Let us talk about and be very clear about neutrality. Ireland's neutrality is not affected by the treaty. This issue has been raised in every European debate in this country since we joined the EEC in 1973. Whether we are neutral is not a matter for Europe but for our Parliament and an internal debate. With regard to the common defence requirements provided for in the treaty, Mr. Cole made reference to a specific section, but he did not stress the key phrase, which is, "in accordance with the respective constitutional requirements". In Ireland that means we have a referendum. It is that simple. That is the law. Ireland cannot be included in any common defence policy unless there is a referendum held here.

What issues would this treaty have changed? In the 1990s the European Union stood idly by while tens of thousands were butchered on its doorstep in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo. It was incapable of helping them. We had to wait for the USA to do what was needed to save lives and protect the rights of the peoples of the Balkans. The Lisbon treaty provides a mechanism to ensure it will never happen again that Europe is left naked in the face of such aggression.

Europe stands for a set of values and Irish values have never been breached by European values. How do we make the European Union more efficient and at the same time bring it closer to the people? If the Union is to assume a greater role in the areas I have mentioned, it must meet two burdens. First, it must be able to make and implement decisions in an effective and efficient manner. Second, it must be responsible to the people upon whom those decisions impact the most. There are three bodies within the EU decision-making structures, two of which make decisions and both of which contain directly elected representatives — directly elected Ministers and directly elected MEPs. Therefore, it is a fallacy to say the European Union is undemocratic. There will be a new double-majority system, making the institutions even more democratic. This will comprise 65% of the Union's population, together with a 55% majority of member states. This will make the Union more equal.

The treaty also introduces significant changes to the European Commission. Following on the principle agreed in the Nice treaty, each Commission will be made up of representatives of two thirds of the member states on a strictly rotating basis. In the past some countries had a right to have two Commissioners but now everyone will be equal. At the same time, the treaty recognises the European Union must be more democratic and transparent. The Council of Ministers will meet and vote in public. No longer will we see a national Minister emerging from a Council meeting and saying to an RTE representative, "Europe made me do it". We will be able to see, via the Internet, what way the Ministers voted. I cannot think of anything more democratic or transparent than this.

As there is no debate in terms of the benefits of membership of the European Union to the economy, I will not list the statistics. However, the question must be asked whether the Treaty of Lisbon will help or hinder the future growth of the economy. It should be noted that we retain the right to make all the most important fiscal economic decisions ourselves. The treaty preserves our veto in tax matters, although Mr. Cole's friends in Libertas have disputed this on an ongoing basis. Despite the wishful thinking of a French Minister and Commissioner László Kovács, as reported in last Tuesday's edition of The Irish Times, we have a veto in this area. The treaty preserves our veto in tax matters, despite the scaremongering regarding enhanced co-operation. The rate of all taxes levied in this country will remain a matter for the Government. That is a matter of fact.

The treaty will have no impact on Ireland's ability to attract foreign direct investment. There is nothing in it that changes Ireland's position on foreign direct investment. It will continue to require unanimity at the Council of Ministers. The treaty clearly states that "for the negotiation and conclusion of agreements in the fields of trade in services and the commercial aspects of intellectual property, as well as foreign direct investment, the Council shall act unanimously".

I like to think I am a republican. I am a peaceful republican and find it hard to have that notion of peaceful republicanism challenged. What more mature type of modern republicanism can we have than one which is willing to share that which we hold most dear, for the betterment of our people, our continent and future generations? The treaty goes beyond guaranteeing our economic sovereignty. The Common Market has been tremendously successful for Ireland and will continue thus for the future of our children.

The critics of the treaty, most of whom have been against the European Union from the start, are desperate to present it as a reversal of the freedom that was so hard won. However, the reality is that Ireland joining the EEC was part of our struggle for freedom. We declared our political independence in 1916 and secured our economic independence in 1973. I am proud to be Irish and European. I want to raise my children in an Ireland that contributes to meeting the challenges of the 21st century. I want my children to be raised in an Ireland that is at the heart of the European Union. That is why the Irish Alliance exists and we must vote "Yes".

We now move to the next phase of the meeting when we will invite participation from the audience. Anybody who wishes to pose a question, seek clarification or make a submission is invited to come to the table with microphones at the front of the room. I urge people not to be shy and encourage their participation. I will ask a number of members of the committee to make a short presentation while members of the audience ready themselves. I call Deputy Perry, Chairman of the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny.

I wish to briefly inform the meeting about the role of the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny and the provisions within the Lisbon treaty which enhance the role of national parliaments within the European Union.

There is no doubt that EU legislation, in the form of directives, regulations and decisions, has a real impact on the daily lives of Irish citizens. It is not imposed on Ireland by an undemocratic, bureaucratic institution but is agreed by the Council, of which the Government is a member, as well as by the directly-elected European Parliament. In this context, it is important to hold the Government to account when negotiating on behalf of Ireland. The Oireachtas has recognised this with the establishment of the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny.

The overriding objective of the committee is to optimise the opportunities available under the European Union Scrutiny Act 2002. Its central task is to act as a watchdog. It scrutinises all legislation proposed by the European Commission which can amount to over 500 documents annually before it is adopted by the Council. If it believes an EU legislative proposal is of particular interest to Ireland and holds significant implications for our society, it undertakes a detailed examination of the proposal which includes discussions with Ministers and senior officials regarding the Government's position, as well as other stakeholders affected by the proposal such as the social partners, representative groups and NGOs from every sector of Irish society. On this basis, the committee produces reports with recommendations to the relevant Minister. The Minister is obliged under the 2002 Act to have due regard for these recommendations in deciding Ireland's negotiating position on draft legislation within the Council. In carrying out this important work, the joint committee seeks to hold the Government to account and to influence its position, which in turn can have an impact on the EU legislative process. The committee works to ensure that citizens' concerns and views are reflected across the full spectrum of EU policy, including agriculture, fisheries, the economy, the environment, justice, migration, consumer rights, regulation and external relations. The committee has scrutinised almost 500 proposed EU laws since it was established last November. It has conducted in-depth examinations of Government representatives and other stakeholders on 20 major legislative proposals and has to date adopted 15 reports containing specific and detailed recommendations on a wide range of policy areas, including migration, food safety, genetically modified crops, fisheries, airport charges and combatting crime.

This oversight role will be complemented and enhanced by the Lisbon reform treaty, which responds to citizens' feelings of disconnection from EU institutions by reinforcing the parliamentary dimension of the EU, thus extending democratic control over the decision-making process and ensuring greater transparency. For the first time national parliaments, including the Houses of the Oireachtas, will be able to directly influence the EU legislative process. National parliaments will become the guardians of the principle of subsidiarity. It will be for the parliaments to police the EU to ensure that it is not acting beyond its rights and that it takes decisions which are as close as possible to the citizen. Subsidiarity means that the EU can only act if a proposed action cannot be sufficiently addressed by individual member states and can be better achieved at EU level. It will be our job to ensure this principle is respected.

The protocol on the application of subsidiarity and proportionality, which will be annexed to the Lisbon reform treaty, lays down an early warning system which enables national parliaments to review EU legislative proposals, judge whether they are in compliance with subsidiarity and forward an opinion to the EU institutions. Each national parliament will have two votes, in Ireland's case one for the Dáil and one for the Seanad, and if one third of these votes represent a negative opinion, the European Commission must review its legislative proposal and then decide whether to maintain, amend or withdraw the proposal, giving reasons for its decision. If the Commission maintains the proposal against the wishes of a simple majority of national parliaments, its opinion and the opinions of national parliaments will be sent to the Council and the European Parliament for a final decision on compatibility with subsidiarity. The proposed legislation can be rejected either by a 55% in Council or a simple majority in the European Parliament. There are also further safeguards whereby a single national parliament will have the power to veto EU legislation in the field of family law and any national parliament which submitted a negative opinion can bring the Commission to the European Court of Justice on the grounds that it has infringed the principle of subsidiarity. It is clear, therefore, that the Lisbon reform treaty will enable national parliaments — the central institutions of European democracies — to directly influence law making within the EU.

I assure the public that EU law is properly and thoroughly examined by political representatives before it is adopted at EU level. All interests within Irish society are taken into account as part of this robust scrutiny process. The Lisbon reform treaty will only serve to enhance the Oireachtas scrutiny role which is a cornerstone of our democratic system, and elevate it beyond the national level to the EU stage.

I thank the Chairman of the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny, Deputy Perry.

Ms Breda Murphy

I am a concerned citizen. What I have heard about the Lisbon treaty does not impress me. I believe Garret FitzGerald has described the text of the treaty as completely unreadable. The Taoiseach stated that 99% of the text was written as a result of the Dutch and French referendums. Another prime minister has said that if the treaty is made difficult, the people will be unable to read it and it can be passed.

It is becoming too centralised and too militarised, and women are not being taken into account. I do not like the idea of Ireland going down the military road. We will be supporting other nations who use nuclear weapons. For most of my life I have campaigned for nuclear disarmament. I live near the Curragh, which has a proud tradition of peacekeeping. I am concerned about the triple lock. I am not against Europe but I oppose it becoming a superstate. For 800 years, we fought for our own sovereignty and to be able to decide for ourselves what we should do with Ireland. I have attended several meetings at which people on the other side said those who oppose the treaty are stupid. I only educated myself on the issue in the past weeks but I am not stupid, rather I am a very intelligent woman.

My name is Breda Murphy and I come from Kildare. I do not belong to any party. I am independent.

That is a good part of the country. I also come from Kildare. Ms Murphy is very welcome and her questions will be answered in a moment. We will bank two or three questions before seeking answers. I ask Members of the Oireachtas to note the questions or respond to them as they see fit. Our guest speakers will be expected to comment at a later stage.

Ms Breda Murphy

Is our neutrality just an aspiration or is it completely gone? I disagree with that is happening in Shannon. That is an illegal war. I do not have what Charlie McCreevy has to live on and disagree with everything being privatised. One thing we cannot live without is water.

Mr. Dermot Quish

My name is Dermot Quish. I am a citizen and an educationalist. I am speaking on my own behalf but, as I was elected by the secondary school teachers of Dublin and Leinster to the Teaching Council of Ireland, my major interest is the formation of young people and their attitudes to society.

I fully accept the point made by Brendan Kiely that real independence was achieved by this country in 1973. Previously we had a ridiculous economic dependence on the Anglo-American world. From an educational point of view, entering Europe liberated us from a cultural dominance which existed in that world. I find, for example, that the popularity of Irish has increased, in which regard Des Bishop is a breath of fresh air to the stodgy approach which was formerly taken. Our movement has been towards the central cultural metaphor of Europe, that is, a mosaic, the unity of which is based on diversity. I welcome the fact that we are joining the diversity which lies at the core of European civilisation.

However, I have concerns for young people entering the workplace. I raise questions on this issue on a regular basis while teaching a social geography class in Sutton. It is fine to say the Irish economy has benefited or is going to develop but it would be naive to suggest there is a common group of people who will benefit equally from the economy. Mr. Cole made a point about the Laval judgment regarding Latvian workers in Sweden. The European Court of Justice made a decision against the notion that it was an illegal practice to pay immigrants a lower rate. My major concern, from the point of view of people at a certain level of the economy, is that, despite the established rate for any job, say €20 per hour, employers will legally pay only €8, €7.85 or whatever the minimum rate is. Will the rate for a variety of professions or jobs be driven down or will we have a national power to prevent such exploitation of our young people and labour in general? That is the central question.

I want to raise another point on a worry I have with another hat I wear. I am a member of Comhlámh, an anti-racist activist and very concerned that we may become involved in labour exploitation through the so-called free movement of labour and capital, a core point in the Treaty of Rome. If we get into the business of driving down the rate for a job allowing somebody from Latvia to work as a plumber for €8 an hour, undermining the livelihood of somebody working here in Dublin, we will put in place the economic basis for a more racist Ireland that we have largely escaped up to now.

I thank the Chairman, Deputy Durkan, for this most republican, civil form of communication with the public. The essence of a republican, civil society is that its institutions reach out and I, as an ordinary citizen, welcome and appreciate it.

I invite our next speaker to introduce himself and state if he is a member of an organisation.

Mr. Noel Canty

I am a European first and Irish next. That was the reason for setting up the European Union, namely, to be European, and we cannot be one before the other. It is possible I will eventually have to establish an association to campaign for what I am after if I can get past the stage of spelling out the word to most people, including journalists. I am talking about one of the major opt-outs. We have opted out of so many provisions of the treaty in every aspect of the European Union. The greatest opt-out I have to talk about concerns freedom of movement. One of the reasons for establishing the European Union was to bring about freedom of movement. My first visit to France was as a child of 14 or 15 years of age in 1962. I had to ask a French policeman for permission to enter his country. When I go to any country in the European Union I first have to cross the Schengen border.

The Schengen border runs along every one of the 22 countries, plus two foreign countries, Norway and Iceland, which are Schengen countries, although they are not part of the European Union. When one crosses a Schengen border and shows a passport, believe it or not, one asks for permission to enter and renders oneself likely to be refused. I make this point to journalists. One can be allowed in or refused. That is the reason for showing a passport. It is not a flicking of passport pages or an identity check, but asking for permission. We have a problem in that we have to ask each time. For years in my travelling back and forth to France before Schengen was established, I could enter freely. Out-of-date passports presented no problem; I just waved it at the policeman. With Schengen it is much more strict. One needs a valid passport, this, that and the other, and one is always likely to be refused.

On 1 May 2004 we had the honour and great joy of having ten new countries join the European Union and we in Dublin welcomed them with open arms. However, the people concerned were not happy to be second-class citizens, as the President of Poland recently cited. He was not happy to be a second-class citizen, but wanted to be a first-class citizen of the Union. Thus, at midnight on 21 December 2007 he banished the borders and Schengen became a reality for the people concerned. With three or four others, to whom I did not have to spell out the word "Schengen", I placed a little token picket on Leinster House on the night, supported by Senator Regan. The four of us placed a picket for an hour to symbolise the importance of what was happening in nine of those ten countries.

We have no freedom of movement and it is dreadful. Before Christmas, Ireland supported the United Kingdom in a court case demanding that we use the biometric system used by all the other EU countries in respect of the new European Schengen passport. The European Commission told us "No" but we had to go and ask the courts, which also said "No". In a short few years our passports will become invalid if we travel outside the European Union. We are allowed into the 22 Schengen countries but will find it difficult to travel elsewhere. The covers of our passports indicate they are EU passports, but they will not conform because we are not allowed to make them conform.

We have the added problem of the poor garda at the airport who has to engage in "terror tactics" on every black, pink or green person, or anybody looking strange, because he or she has no way of knowing who is rejected by Schengen. At the Schengen embassies every morning plain clothes police officers keep an eye out because it is the only way of finding out who is not welcome in Schengen. I am informed by a couple of Nigerians who have Irish passports that Africans who have become citizens are always in fear whenever they travel to Schengen countries of being told they are not getting in or out. We should be part of Schengen. We must get rid of the political issues. We must join Schengen and have freedom of movement after 35 years in the European Union, come what may. I can see the border being manned by police officers. I regularly see pieces on French web pages commenting on plain clothes police officers checking people crossing the border. There is a border. It is a border with the United Kingdom. We have to accept the fact that we could be part of Schengen.

The French are beginning to resent the British. Many of the people in front of me will say it is the fault of the British. We have a Berlin wall in the Gare du Nord in Paris where the train arrives from the Eurotunnel and they have to have immigration officers on the platform. This intensely angers the French police and Government. It is time to join Schengen, become real Europeans and move from being second-class to first-class citizens. I thank the committee for listening to me

Mr. Gregg O’Neill

I am a recently graduated student looking for work. Therefore, if any member of the committee or audience is employing young people, I am interested.

Mr. Cole talked a lot about neutrality and that is not surprising. It was ten minutes before he got to talk about the details of the treaty. Will he refer to Article 28A, the important provision on defence requirements? Every notion of a requirement placed on member states in that article is qualified by a reference to the individual nation states, their right to set their own foreign policies, the fact that each member state has a veto over any action by the European Union and has the right to opt out of any action by the Union. The requirements are also qualified by the fact that the article references the charter of the United Nations in terms of the directives and ideals of the European Union when it acts abroad in deploying troops and peacekeeping, the main goal of the article in crafting that framework for the wider world. Will Mr. Cole touch on this in his response?

Will Mr. Cole also touch on the articles of the treaty that directly relate to the Laval judgment? There is none. In the Charter of Fundamental Rights the right to strike to collectively bargain would be greatly strengthened through the passing of the treaty. I am sure Deputy Costello will also touch on this issue. Mr. Cole talked a lot about the many reasons to be against the European Union and the way it is going. Will he reference in detail where in the treaty he believes Ireland is losing out? We know that the other member states will all ratify the treaty, given the support the governments of those states have shown for it. What should make Ireland say to such states that the treaty is a step too far for us, that we are willing to delay the progress of the entire European Union? Can some of the speakers touch on this issue?

I thank the contributor and wish to mention that questions addressed to guest speakers will be dealt with at the end. I will now ask three or four Members of the Oireachtas to respond. I first ask the committee's Vice Chairman, Deputy Timmy Dooley, to respond to the questions raised as he sees appropriate. Each person will respond as he or she feels is appropriate and I hope all questions will be answered.

I will first make some opening remarks and then ask some questions. Mr. Roger Cole, at the end of his contribution, spoke of his belief in a united, independent and democratic republic. I also believe in this and I ask him to address some of the questions I will raise in that context.

The challenges facing Irish jobs, Ireland's environment and Ireland's competitiveness are global. Our capacity to act to defend our interests against climate change, rising energy costs, transnational crime and global economic downturns is minimal when we act alone. Ireland's sovereignty, power and strength can be found in its capacity to act on behalf of its people to defend prosperity, safeguard the environment and protect jobs and livelihoods that Irish families have worked hard to build. The capacity to act, minimal when Ireland is alone, is greatly enhanced through the unique partnership that is the European Union. Membership of the EU has given us access to the free market, practical co-operation and greater clout on the world stage.

The reform treaty we are discussing this evening will increase Ireland's capacity to act even further. It will cut bureaucracy, tackle inefficiencies, speed up decision-making and deliver a Union more responsive to our citizens and more answerable to our Oireachtas. For these reasons I support the "Yes" campaign.

I will now address some of the issues raised by speakers. Mr. Cole spoke of the political elite and I can only infer that, as elected Members, we are members of that elite in his view. I ask him to confirm this for us. He said the political elite is in the process of transferring power to the EU institutions but one must question why we would be motivated to do so. We must face the electorate in the future and I would not intend to support a mechanism that would transfer powers to EU institutions, thereby eroding the democracy of which we are part. I fail to see the logic behind the contention that, as an elected representative, I would do anything to erode the principles of democracy, thereby eroding my political base and the work I do.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to contribute. Regarding the remarks of Ms. Breda Murphy and Mr. Roger Cole on the military aspect to this, the European Union was founded to bring peace, stability and prosperity to Europe after the most devastating world wars the planet ever experienced. The European Union, over the past 50 years, has brought peace, ended dictatorships in Portugal, Spain and Greece and assisted in ending totalitarian regimes in eastern European states, which, in 2004, joined the EU. With regard to Northern Ireland, Mr. John Hume said the European Union was the greatest peace process the world has ever known.

With all this in mind, it is a bit much to think the European Union is becoming a militarist entity. It is not the case. Remarks were made on the issue of Shannon, in terms of neutrality, but Shannon has nothing to do with the European Union or the Lisbon reform treaty. The issue of Shannon relates to the Government providing services to the United States and I have stood on the same platform as Mr. Cole in Shannon to protest against this. The triple lock means there must be a United Nations mandate, agreement by the Irish Government and a vote in the Dáil before we engage in a military mission. This is all the European Union can do; it can only engage in military missions that are in accordance with the charter of the United Nations, subject to international law and democracy, including the Petersberg Tasks. The EU is not an aggressive or belligerent entity in any sense. There is no substance to the military argument against the treaty and we have a veto on military engagements. If Ireland does not want to be involved in such areas, it need not be.

Mr. Dermot Quish raised serious questions because the last thing we need is a race to the bottom. There have been certain issues, including the Laval case, the Viking case and the Rüffert case, and in Ireland we had the Irish Ferries situation. There has been a certain amount of difficulty in the area of interpretation and the question is how this is to be dealt with. The first case arose under the services directive, introduced by the Commissioner for the Internal Market and Services, Mr. Charlie McCreevy, which posited the idea that the lowest rate, for example, that applying in the country a person came from, rather than that in the host country, could apply. This matter was addressed through negotiations and the services directive was transformed to ensure it could not be interpreted in this way.

The interpretation in the other cases is based on the posting of workers directive, which has different impacts in different member states. The Laval case relates to Swedish law and the Rüffert case relates to German Lånder law and such matters can be addressed by the countries involved. The matter of agency workers relates to Irish law, or the lack of it. The European Commission put together a directive to deal with agency workers that would have given equal treatment to them in Ireland but the Irish Government opposed it. It is worth remembering that some of the problems that have been mentioned do not derive from Europe but from the Irish Government.

I would like to inform those present of what the situation may be when the charter is in place. Today, in Brussels, I spoke to the Commissioner for Employment, Social Affairs and Equal Opportunities, Mr. Vladimír Spidla, and he believed that if the Charter of Fundamental Rights was in place, the Laval judgment could not have happened as it did. Article 15 of the charter says that "nationals of third countries who are authorised to work in the territories of the member states are entitled to working conditions equivalent to those of citizens of the EU". The idea that all citizens of the Union should be entitled to the conditions prevalent in the host country is the way forward.

It is difficult to address the matter of the Schengen borders and I have a great deal of sympathy regarding the position. This came about because of the British view — there was a great deal of trouble in Northern Ireland at the time and there were Border controls that could not be eliminated. This is an issue that must be addressed in the Irish context.

Finally, I will address Mr. Gregg O'Neill's points on the charter. There is no doubt that the charter is one of the great new additions to the treaty. Mr. Peter Sutherland, speaking at the Forum on Europe last week, said there was nothing radical about the new treaty and that it was not like some of the other treaties. It is radical in two areas, the first of which is the Charter of Fundamental Rights which will be a legally binding document if the treaty is passed. It is very strong on workers' rights, as it is on the rights of women and children, trafficking and so on. It cuts across civil, political and social rights. Second, there is a strong social clause in the treaty, which means that any legislation from the European Union must effectively be socially proofed in the context of its impact on communities and full employment and how it will affect people. That is extremely important.

I know I am going on too long, but my last point is about what Mr. Canty said — that he was first and foremost a European citizen, not an Irish citizen. He will have to change his mind if he is going to vote "Yes" because the Lisbon treaty makes it clear that European Union citizenship is additional to the citizenship of the national state.

We will hear our four Senators and then move on to the next speaker. I ask members to be as brief as possible as there are a number of questions outstanding.

I thank all speakers and will respond directly to the points raised. Ms Murphy mentioned her concerns about the European Union becoming a centralised super-state. There are a number of elements in the treaty that put the Union as far away as possible from becoming an empire or a super-state. The main change in our national and European institutions proposed by the treaty is the idea that national parliaments will get back more power. After the treaty is passed by the people, the Houses of the Oireachtas will become more powerful. The strengthening of our power and ability to act is diametrically opposed to the idea of taking us towards a European superstate. There are two aspects included in the Lisbon treaty, the first of which has been touched on by Deputy Perry. The committees within the Houses of the Oireachtas responsible for dealing with European matters will be given more powers to scrutinise the legislation and directives from the European Commission, to make records of any issues they have with what is coming from the European Union, and to do something about it. If the committees are getting more power, it means that the elected representatives are getting more power to deal with the directives and proposals from the European Union.

The second aspect is the red-card orange-card system to be introduced in the European Union if the Lisbon treaty is passed. This means that if 55% of national parliaments and 65% of the population of Europe are against an idea coming from the European Commission, that proposal will be stopped. One aspect of this appeals to me strongly. The Houses of the Oireachtas has two votes in that system, the same number of votes as the British, French and German Parliaments will have. The idea that this diminishes Ireland's role is something I cannot accept. For me, our Parliament is being enhanced.

To return to a point made about the role of workers within the European Union and whether they will be further protected in any way, Article 136 makes explicit the idea that a social Europe is at the heart of the Lisbon treaty. It mentions "the promotion of employment, improved living and working conditions...proper social protection, dialogue between management and labour, and the development of human resources with a view to lasting high employment and the combating of exclusion". That idea is copper-fastened in the treaty. The idea that it has been created by some political and economic elite is explicitly rejected by a statement such as this and in the creation of the Charter of Fundamental Rights.

I wish everyone a good evening. I will try to be as quick as I can and address some points that have not been addressed by others. The first of these is the contention that the treaty is not readable. I have to admit that European treaties generally do not tend to be very easy to read. They are legal texts and designed to a certain extent for lawyers rather than the ordinary lay person. However, there have been several attempts to make the Lisbon treaty more accessible. One is a document produced by the Institute of European Affairs called the Consolidated Version of the Treaties Amended by the Treaty of Lisbon. The difficulty with the Lisbon treaty is that it is a series of amendments to previous treaties. Thus, if one reads them on their own, they do not make much sense, unless one can refer back to the treaties they are amending. This document brings together all relevant treaties and shows what they will look like if the provisions of the Lisbon treaty are added to them. I find it readable. In parts it gets a little difficult but it is not a bad document to read. It can be downloaded from the website of the Institute of European Affairs, although unfortunately it costs €25. However, I recommend that anyone who is interested in going to the source try to get his or her hands either on the downloaded version or a hard copy.

In addition, there is a good summary version of the Lisbon treaty that has been produced by the Forum on Europe. I see a copy in the room, although I do not have one with me. It is a small, compact document which is available through the Forum on Europe. It is a good overview of the contents of the treaty.

Ms Murphy mentioned that she believed women were not getting a fair deal within the European Union. However, I think most of the positive employment and equality legislation now in place in Ireland has come as a result of European directives and the Lisbon treaty continues this in the values it sets out. In the early part of the treaty it is stated the European Union "shall combat social exclusion and discrimination, and shall promote social justice and protection, equality between women and men, solidarity between generations and protection of the rights of the child". There are several mentions of the issue of equality between men and women. Again, in the Charter for Fundamental Rights which is attached to the treaty by means of a protocol equality between men and women is set down and given a legal basis. Thus, equality and women's rights are well protected within the treaty.

The issue of nuclear energy was mentioned. This is a big issue for the Green Party because we have always opposed the development of the nuclear industry. Particularly at this time, when we are considering the development of more sustainable sources of energy, we believe renewable energy — specifically, a mix of renewable energy sources — is the way we should be going. In terms of investment opportunities and decisions, the decisions that favour nuclear energy are at the expense of renewable energy. The European Union is in a good position to deal with this issue. Under the Lisbon treaty, energy becomes a shared competence of the European Union for the first time. This means that the Union is being given competence in the area of energy which it will share with member states. There is thus an opportunity for the Union to prioritise the development of renewable energy sources. Although nuclear energy is a factor, the EURATOM Treaty is one of the European treaties and has been around since 1957. The Lisbon treaty does not change it, unfortunately. We would like to have seen a sunset clause in the Lisbon treaty that allowed the EURATOM Treaty to expire because the latter treaty promotes nuclear energy within the Union. We are very happy that a declaration attached to the Lisbon treaty, signed by a number of member states including Ireland, requests that the EURATOM Treaty be reviewed soon. We want to see renewable energy prioritised for investment and research expenditure in the way that nuclear energy was in the past. This is the right direction for the European Union to take. The EURATOM Treaty will continue whether or not the Lisbon treaty is passed. The Lisbon treaty offers a new direction and new possibilities for energy policy within Europe.

The issue of privatisation was mentioned. There are concerns that sections of our economy will be privatised because of some provisions in different EU treaties. Our Government makes decisions about privatising. The decisions about Aer Lingus and Eircom were made without any connection to European directives. Decisions to privatise are largely a matter for national Governments. There are certain moves towards liberalisation of particular sectors but there is no onus on national Governments to privatise unless they decide to do so. We should be clear on that point.

I agree with the speaker who said that it is anomalous that Ireland is not part of the Schengen arrangement. This is because of the common travel area we have with the UK and it poses difficulties for Ireland. For the same reason, under the Lisbon treaty we sought an opt-out in the area of justice and home affairs because we are tied into the UK in a way that makes it difficult for us to take a stance on our own without considering that country's position. I agree with the gentleman that we should push for inclusion in the Schengen area. To do that, we must work with the UK to try to shift its position. The Green Party would be very much in favour of Ireland joining the Schengen agreement in the near future.

My party is concerned about certain provisions of the Lisbon treaty regarding militarisation. We believe that Ireland's position is protected within the Lisbon treaty. Ireland will not be obliged to take part in any common defence arrangement because that would not be compatible with our Constitution. However, we are concerned that the European Union seems to be strengthening its military dimension. There is a choice for the EU. It can develop what is called soft power and continue to use the kind of economic, diplomatic, trade and other instruments it has used to try to exert influence in different parts of the world, rather than go down the traditional route of superpowers with a strong military dimension. Many Irish citizens would be in favour of that position. While the Green Party would not support some of the military provisions in the Lisbon treaty, overall we are reassured that Ireland's neutrality will not be affected by those provisions although other member states may avail of them.

Two Oireachtas members have not yet participated. With their agreement I propose to bring in the audience again before they speak.

Mr. Malachy Steenson

I am general secretary of ACRA, the Association of Combined Residents Associations in Ireland, which is the national representative body of residents.

I thank the Chairman for calling this meeting. People should be encouraged to attend these debates where politicians argue the position. The size of the audience is somewhat disappointing. I have attended quite a few meetings on the Lisbon treaty since Christmas. Deputy Costello and Mr. Cole have been present at some of these which have generally attracted larger numbers. Perhaps the committee might look at this.

Why is ACRA opposed to this treaty? A core belief of the association is that power should be centred at the lowest possible level. We are opposed to the removal of power to undemocratic unelected bodies such as the Commission. We also make the point that in every referendum on Europe a substantial proportion of people vote against the amendments ratifying the treaties. In the case of the first referendum on the Nice Treaty a majority rejected the amendment. Yet the vast majority of members of both Houses of the Oireachtas speak in favour of this amendment. No matter how this turns out on June 12, which is the day of the referendum according to the Taoiseach, a substantial proportion of people will have voted on the losing side. That is not reflected in the Houses of the Oireachtas. That is something we must look at and politicians must be honest about it.

Senator de Búrca showed us the consolidated text which she says we can download or buy for €25. For most people that is probably as incomprehensible as the treaty itself. The Senator mentioned the European forum's booklet. If she reads the first paragraph of that she will find the statement that it is a selective document. It is a document written by a forum in favour of the treaty. When the Government asks the people to vote on a matter, particularly an amendment to the Constitution, we have asked that it at least provide the people with a readable document. The majority of the people we represent in residents associations do not have broadband access, are probably in the older segment of society and are not computer literate. To ask them to download a 300-page document and print it is nonsense.

I came here to make several points but having listened to Mr. Brendan Kiely I believe we are all waiting for June 13. The only things he left out were the sun, sea and sangria. All the problems in this society — and I live in Dublin Central, the constituency represented by Deputy Costello, ravaged by heroin since the 1980s and by cocaine now — have only one cause, which is that we do not have the Lisbon treaty.

Mr. Kiely talked about human trafficking. The only trafficking he left out was that going on in the construction company Gama, which had to be highlighted in the Houses of the Oireachtas. That will extend following the Laval judgment, despite what Deputy Costello says. Laval was determined on Article 49 on fundamental rights. We welcome the charter on fundamental rights but it does not give any more rights than are already there. What it does is allow the European Court of Justice to determine those rights rather than the European Court of Human Rights. On every occasion the ECJ has sided with business and corporations. It very seldom decides in favour of workers.

Mr. Kiely talked about Bosnia and Croatia and said that the EU was unable to act. The reality is that the EU was unwilling to act. It allowed murder and mayhem and did nothing about it.

I am a European and a republican. I believe in a Europe of people, not a Europe of businesses, or one directed by capital. I believe in a Europe where workers are primary, where the people who create the wealth are those who benefit from it. We must build a Europe which is free and equal. I do not believe, as those on the "Yes" side are saying, that Europe will end if we vote "No". All that will happen is that we will come back and re-negotiate this. As we saw with Nice, and with this treaty, it will be brought back to us and it will be worded somewhat differently. We may get something that we do not have now.

I believe that the Europe we need is a Europe of people, of workers. I thank the Chair.

Mr. Michael Ruane

I am a teacher and have been teaching in Dublin most of my life. I made out this small contribution today. Allowing for that, I do not fully understand this treaty yet, or know how I will vote. This is what the treaty is. In my research today I found out two thirds of our laws are made in Brussels. This removes the decision making process from us in 32 different areas. I cannot prove whether that is right or wrong. It seems to me we are more and more being robbed of our hard-earned freedom, the ability to make personal and national choices, and the right to decision-making and self-governance. More and more, we are governed by others and less self-governed. Could we see the Lisbon treaty as a failure of self-governance — it is another dimension to this debate — and are we more and more reliant on being governed by others? Could the treaty be an invitation to all of us, as Deputy Brian Cowen said, to work harder at self-governance and more in co-operation with Brussels?

My contribution is more or less in line with that of Mr. Roger Cole. I have gone to several meetings on the treaty and I have not yet heard in the debate a discussion on the more theological, spiritual and philosophical aspects of the treaty, which are so important. We seem to concentrate on the material aspects alone. In section 18 of the encyclical Spe Salve by Pope Benedict XVI, his definition of progress is “the overcoming of all forms of dependency”. These decisions can never be made for us in advance by others. If that were the case we should no longer be free. It was Abraham Lincoln who once described democracy as “government of the people, by the people, for the people”. The last speaker said democracy is where the greatest possible participation is allowed to the greatest number of people.

Thank you. Will the next speaker introduce himself please?

Mr. Declan Harmon

I am a student from Dublin. As a student I probably have too much time on my hands, so I have also read the consolidated version of the treaties to which Senator Déirdre de Búrca referred. I am astonished at some of the claims made by people opposed to the treaty about what it contains, especially on the defence issue. I have heard some of what has been said by Mr. Roger Cole and others opposed to the treaty, about what the treaty contains in the defence area. Yet when one reads the treaty it is not there at all. I am not surprised that Mr. Cole only quoted one passage from the treaty this evening. If he were to quote any more it would become fairly clear that the argument he is making on the defence issue does not stack up.

I was pleased that some of the speakers took the opportunity to talk about the provisions in the treaty that deal with the economy and what the reform treaty will do in terms of strengthening our economy and more specifically what it will not do. As a student I think the greatest gift the previous generation of politicians gave to my generation is that this Christmas people my age will go to New York for shopping and not for life. I want to see an economy where people my age can get good jobs here and not have to emigrate, as was the case in the past. I want to see that prosperity continue. I am pleased that speakers have taken the opportunity to talk about how the treaty does not impact on our foreign direct investment policy. I appreciate the assurance.

On the question of a political elite, I am rather confused. The treaty started at a convention made up of members of parliament from each member state and members of the European Parliament. It was then decided on by the European Council, which is made up of the presidents and prime ministers of Europe, all of whom are either directly elected or accountable to a parliament which is directly elected. How can this be described as a treaty that has been negotiated by a political elite? Does Mr. Cole consider someone to be part of the political elite simply because they had more success at winning elections than he has?

Thank you. Will the next speaker introduce himself please?

Mr. Frank Mulcahy

I am very much pro-European. However, on this occasion I am more than concerned about the democratic deficit in the European Community. Senator de Búrca referred to the consolidation of various regulations and decisions. I believe this is effectively a blank cheque to the European Commission when it is required. Normally the European Commission has worked very much in favour of Ireland. However, there have been occasions when it has worked against our best interests. I will give one practical and specific example. I do this in the context of the robust scrutiny Deputy John Perry spoke of, the reluctance to agree to anything that would erode our democracy referred to by Deputy Dooley and Deputy Joe Costello's reference to the ending of totalitarianism.

In 1997 the Commission was under pressure because of a lack of proper audit procedures. In that year it introduced a sound and efficient management programme, which contained three pieces of legislation. The legislation I want to deal with is EU Regulation No. 2064/97. I hope the representative from the Department of Foreign Affairs is aware of it. That regulation contained a hidden clause which, in certain circumstances, could be applied retrospectively. It required the Government to confirm that the audit procedures are such that before any European grants are released, the relevant invoices were checked to bank statements. This audit practice was not complied with by the Irish Civil Service; it was not required to comply with the legislation. However, with the resignation of half the European Commission in 1998 because of allegations of widespread fraud, the Commission decided that the Irish should confirm that they had compiled with that procedure. Discussions took place for two years involving all Departments of Finance, the European Commission and the head of the Directorate-General for Budget in the European Commission — I can name him, I do not have any problem with that — Mr. Brian Gray. Initially the commission made an oral agreement with the Department of Finance whereby it would not demand that Ireland confirm compliance with the legislation. Both parties knew the legislation had not been complied with and Ireland commenced complying with the regulation from 30 June, 1998. Ireland failed to do that. In late 2000, the Commission carried out an audit on the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, the results of which have never been published. They adjudged that the Department was guilty of systemic maladministration. It then decided that the Department of Finance and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment should confirm they had complied with the regulation introduced in 1998. The Departments would have to tell the Commission that they complied with that regulation from 1994. Both the Commission and all the spending Departments in Ireland knew they had not complied. They knew it for a variety of reasons, including the Commission's finding of systemic maladministration and two reports they had commissioned from Arthur Andersen, one in 1998 and one in April 2001, which confirmed that audit procedures in the Department were haphazard and ineffective and that Ireland had not complied with the requirements. I am coming to the point, Chairman, and particularly the point of robust scrutiny of European legislation.

In January 2001, Alan Johnson, the current Minister for Health in the United Kingdom Parliament, in its committee scrutinising European affairs, reported that at the Berlin Conference on 10 October 2000 the Commission had rescinded the requirement for the retroactive application of 2064/97. That is in January 2001 — Hansard. Yet on 19 July 2001 the Second Secretary General at the Department of Finance here sent a letter to all spending Departments saying that Brian Gray, head of DG Budget, was now insisting——

Incidentally, your submission will be dealt with by way of written reply. I will comment on it but the secretariat will compile a reply that will go directly to you. How much more time do you need, because a number of speakers wish to contribute?

Mr. Frank Mulcahy

I am just finished. I will tell the committee something which is even more interesting. Even though all spending Departments knew they had not complied with the audit requirements set down by Regulation 2064/97 and the Commission knew that Ireland had not complied, the Commission insisted that they be told in writing that Ireland had complied. They did not want to know if Ireland had complied. All they wanted was a letter stating that Ireland had complied. Ireland organised a meeting of member states in Brussels to oppose that, did not get agreement and then decided it would tell the Commission that it had complied. They did that because they were threatened with a European penalty in excess of £400 million; that is contained in the letter from the Department of Finance to all Irish spending Departments. Some Secretaries General realised that retrospective legislation was contrary to the Irish constitution and so a Government decision was acquired on 18 June 2002 to retrospectively apply European regulation 2064. The spending Departments spent the years between 2002 and 2006 creating retrospective audit trails going back to 1994.

How did the scrutiny committee in Leinster House not come across this problem? I wrote to that committee between 2004 and currently. Why have I not yet received a reply from it?

Another important point is that on 6 March 1999 I read in the newspapers that I had been accused of fraud in respect of the drawing down of grants from the European Community. No money was missing. The allegation, which involved the fraud squad, is that I had breached a grant condition. The grant condition was the grant condition laid down in European Regulation 2064/97. I have pursued all Departments for the past eight years, including by way of questions tabled in Leinster House, as regards whether the Departments knew there was no basis to the fraud allegation. The Departments replied, using the Tánaiste's and Ministers' names, to the effect that they were not aware that there was no basis to the allegation. If they check the interdepartmental memorandum from Ian Devlin to Patricia Lawlor dated 20 March 2002, they will know that the Departments always knew there was no basis to the fraud allegation.

I thank Mr. Mulcahy. I assure him that a reply will go directly to him. We will get his address and other details and I will arrange to have a reply sent directly to him regarding that matter. I will comment also on some aspects of the points he made at a later time.

Mr. Frank Mulcahy

Thank you, Chairman. I cannot wait for the reply.

I understand we have one more speaker from the audience.

Mr. David Gray

As a citizen I will ask a question on the role and the power of the President of the European Union. All these positions have a starting point but I would be concerned that should that position become too powerful in the future, is there a mechanism or safeguard in place that would reduce the power of the President of the European Union?

I call Senator Feargal Quinn who will be followed by Senator Terry Leyden. Our two guest speakers will be called at the end of the contributions, following which I may make some brief comments.

I notice there is one other speaker offering, Chairman. Do you want to take the other questioner before I speak?

Mr. Robert Fitzsimons

I was born on the island currently called Ireland. The committee can make what it wants of that. I will make some general comments and ask some questions. I will start with the questions. Is a copy of the treaty available for people to read at the meeting? We have seen condensed documents but it is relevant that people see the extent of the full document.

We have some copies.

Mr. Robert Fitzsimons

Many members have come across as being for or against the treaty. When we examine legislation we cannot agree with everything in it. There must be parts of it that the people who accept it do not like or that they hate but that are outweighed by the parts they like. Could they indicate some of the topics they are against or have issues with?

On where the power lies currently, the laws are written by the legislators in parliaments but they are interpreted by civil servants and bodies established by the Legislature and the Judiciary. Does the treaty affect that power? I can run against the legislators in an election if I believe they are doing a bad job but if I believe a civil servant at a European level is not doing something right, it would be more difficult to interact with Europe. For example, because I am involved in IT I was involved in the softer patents debate that took place some years ago but I felt I could not interact with Europe. I have been able to interact on other issues within Ireland — the local council and within the Oireachtas — but I felt I was unable to interact properly with Europe.

Another aspect is the data retention laws. I do not believe the Oireachtas could have passed legislation to introduce data retention and therefore it gets bumped up to Europe to be passed. That has helped in certain circumstances. Many green issues that probably would not have been passed in Ireland were bumped up to Europe and passed. Europe is a great force for good but is there an opportunity for it to be a force that affects the citizens?

A Minister or somebody else referred at one point to Ireland missing the European train. Where is that train going? Where is the European project going? I have no idea where the European project is going and I do not know if I want to go there. I have been asked a simple question and if I knew the destination, I could jump on or jump off.

I thank the members of the audience for their participation. I will call the two final speakers, one of whom, Senator Terry Leyden, will have to leave early as he has the furthest distance to travel. He has to travel to Roscommon tonight.

A considerable achievement of the Lisbon reform treaty is that this debate of the Oireachtas is being outreached. This is a unique and useful occasion. Some of the staff of the Oireachtas, namely, ushers and reporters, are here tonight. The meeting is well organised from that point of view.

The reform treaty is not about neutrality, the 12.5% corporation tax or abortion. Rather, it is about the reorganisation of the structures of the European Union. Given that we have benefited greatly from the European Union, it is not rocket science to work out that to continue the development of our economy it is crucial for us to vote "Yes" on 12 June or whenever the referendum will be held.

We are in a unique position. Of the 500 million residents of the European Union, Ireland, with a population of 4.2 million, has the only opportunity for its people to make a democratic decision on this treaty. As a result of our 1937 Constitution and those who drafted it, we must have a referendum on the treaty. Out of the 27 member states of the Union, we are the only member state where every citizen has a mandate to speak on this issue, decide what is in his or her best interests and that of his or her family and what is in the best interest of Ireland and of our future. It is a democratic choice. The people have a say in it. Everyone, from the wealthiest to the poorest, is equal. This debate should take place in a reasoned manner.

Mr. Robert Fitzsimons asked if we were for everything in the treaty. There are items provided for in it about which I am not very enthusiastic. I am not very enthusiastic about the fact that in a period of 15 years we will not have a Commissioner for 5 years, but the same will apply to Germany and Britain. All member states are equal in that respect. The same position will apply to Slovenia. The position is balanced in that every member state will be treated equally under the Lisbon reform treaty. The provision regarding a petition where 1 million signatures would be required is unrealistic; it is not a great provision. I am replying honestly to the point raised by Mr. Robert Fitzsimons.

Mr. David Gray raised the issue of safeguards concerning the new post of President of the European Council. That office holder will have more of a ceremonial, although important, role, one of co-ordinating the work of the European Union and will represent the European Union throughout the world. I hope we will have an Irish applicant for that job, namely, the Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern. He would be an excellent applicant for that job. I put forward his name at this stage for that job and we would be happy for him to be considered for it.

I thank the Chairman for chairing the meeting so well. I will attend a meeting of the Council of Europe in Strasbourg on Wednesday at which we will approve the application by the European Union to become part of the European Convention on Human Rights. We will debate that and that will be subject to Ireland's decision in the forthcoming referendum. Without a positive decision on the treaty, Europe will be held back. Having benefited greatly from the European Union, we will be perceived by people as having turned our back on the European Union and on our fellow Europeans. That is the reason I will vote "Yes" in the referendum. Life will go on whichever way the vote goes but we will be taking the most backward step in tough economic times if we vote "No". It would be madness to vote "No" in this referendum.

I do not know if our friend, Mr. Roger Cole, has been reading some other treaty of which I am not aware. He is talking fiction. If anybody sides with him, he or she will be going in the wrong direction. I hope that on the day people will decisively vote "Yes" for progress, prosperity and the continuation of our country's position — our country being on the edge of Europe — at the centre of Europe. We are being watched. I do not want any outside influence to be brought to bear on us to vote "Yes" or "No". We will make our own decision democratically among ourselves. I believe the people will vote "Yes" because that is what is in our own best interests.

I will be brief. Up until 1800 we had two Houses of Parliament here, a House of Commons and a House of Lords. Those who had a right to vote voted in 1800 to give up that Parliament and vest power in London. Until then Dublin was the second city of the British Empire and for the following hundred years or more we became a depressed city and Ireland a depressed country.

I have 11 grandchildren, none of whom yet has a vote. I do not want them to come to me in a few years' time and say, "Grandad how did you vote? You are the one to blame for the mistake you made in the way you voted." I want them to say "Grandad, thank you very much for the way you voted, whichever way it was". I say that because I find this is a difficult decision to make.

This document is the consolidated version of the treaty. Mr. Robert Fitzsimons asked about it. I am impressed that practically all my colleagues in both Houses of the Oireachtas know exactly what to do because I do not know that yet. However, I will know when the time comes to vote because I will have listened carefully and will have done as much as I possibly can to go through that document. It is not easy to go through the 341 pages of it and it is quite difficult to understand. I want members of this audience and others to ask themselves whether the decision we are making is the right one.

The basic reason for voting "Yes", as Mr. Brendan Kiely said, is that the treaty will result in a more efficient Europe; it will not be efficient if it continues to operate as it does at present. I met a man called Vaclav Klaus some years ago. He is now the President of the Czech Republic. I talked to him about my enthusiasm for Europe and how I had always voted "Yes" in referenda. He said he was not as enthusiastic as me because he believed that too much power was being given to Brussels. He said he had a big brother in Moscow for 40 years of his life and he did not want a big brother in Brussels to take the place of that big brother in Moscow. I want to examine that and when I vote to make sure that I have given serious attention to the decisions which will result from the power we currently have being handed over to Brussels.

What I have heard tonight has helped me in some way in deciding how to vote. I was not overly impressed by Mr. Roger Cole's points. I did not believe the concerns he expressed about defence and Ms Breda Murphy's point about the triple lock mechanism put my mind at rest in that respect.

I have concerns about tax in spite of what was said. In particular, my concern relates to what the French Minister for Finance was quoted as saying in an article in Tuesday's edition of The Irish Times when she suggested changes in the tax base — not in the tax — and the method used in Europe. I want to make sure we are protected in that regard. When I examine this issue, I want to make sure that in regard to foreign direct investment we are protected, given that it has been so useful for this country.

I also want to make sure the protections are safeguarded in terms of the questions asked about families and the possibility of us losing some of the rights we currently have in terms of abortion, "quickie" divorce, same-sex adoption and the right to religious freedom in education. These areas are probably not mentioned in this treaty and perhaps there is no change in regard to them. However, when I vote I will have queried all these issues and will come to a conclusion on that basis.

I welcome tonight's meeting and the fact that members of the audience have come here. I agree with those who said they would have liked to have seen more people here. This is the first of these meetings. This meeting and others that will take place will give everybody an opportunity to do as I am doing, namely, to seriously consider the decision they will make because it has long-term implications. I want to make sure that we do our duty and pay attention to that duty to ensure we make the decisions in the right way.

I will hear short comments from the two guest speakers. Who wishes to go first?

Mr. Brendan Kiely

I will.

Mr. Brendan Kiely, who spoke second initially, will now address the meeting.

Mr. Brendan Kiely

It is good to hear from Mr. Noel Canty again. He referred to the Schengen Agreement. I was previously involved in the airline and travel business so I can speak with some authority on this. Ireland opted out of the Schengen Agreement for two reasons: first, the UK was opting out and, second, between 70% and 80% of our travel at that time was to the UK. London Heathrow is our hub airport to the rest of the world so the issue was either be required to use one's passport to go into Europe or be required to use it where 70% of travellers were going. Changes are coming because of the anti-terror laws in the UK. Whether we opt into the Schengen Agreement is an issue for our national Government and Parliament, not for this treaty.

Mr. Robert Fitzsimons said he did not like the fact that the treaty is difficult to read. We had a treaty that was easy to read, the EU constitution, and everybody was against it. Now, they are against it because it is difficult to read. I am confused by that but I take his point. A gentleman whose name I cannot recall referred to Directive 2064/97. We spoke at length about this issue. A former member of this committee, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, has dealt with the issues on many occasions. He is a former chairman of European Movement Ireland, a former member of this committee and current chairman of the Irish Alliance for Europe so I refer the gentleman to his communications. I compliment the gentleman on his memory of the details.

Ms Breda Murphy said that people thought she was stupid. The manner in which the debate has been cast, with different comments about "loolahs" and saying people are stupid and so forth, is unhelpful. I accept her point. I do not believe she is stupid and fair play to her for attending this evening to give her views. With regard to the powers of the president, page 18 is very specific about the powers of the president and the non-executive powers. It is a non-executive body. There are four; I can show it to our questioner afterwards.

The Association of Combined Residents Associations is a blast from the recent past for me. Its members used to phone me at 1 a.m. I ask them not to do so in the next week or so because my young son is visiting. Within six months of the United States invading Afghanistan the price of heroin on our streets dropped exponentially. That is a fact. The US could not control the production of poppies like the Taliban did. That brought a new type of user into heroin addiction. There is empirical and statistical evidence to prove that for the first time heroin left our major cities and reached small towns and villages in this country. That is a clear instance of something that happens globally visiting our door within six months in the context of crime and destroying our communities. This is a point Mr. Steenson's friends in Sinn Féin have made constantly. He said he is looking for a Europe of peoples, free and equal, not a Europe of business. A "Yes" vote will deliver that.

I ask people to ask themselves some questions. At this point in our history, with economic clouds arriving, is this the time to unplug ourselves from our major economic driver, when we export 90% of what we produce? How will we face the challenges of the future? What is the benefit to Ireland of voting "No"? I know how I have benefitted. I was educated by the EU because it paid for the college I attended, the lecturers in that college, the road on which I travelled and the bus in which I travelled, as well as the grant for a few pints. I am part of the first generation since the Famine that did not have to emigrate. That is a phenomenal statement. I was born within weeks of accession to the EU. On that basis and on behalf of the Irish Alliance for Europe, I ask people to vote "Yes".

Mr. Malachy Steenson

I wish to clarify one point. ACRA is a non-party political organisation. We have friends in every political party. We do not particularly have friends in Sinn Féin, nor do I. I ask Mr. Kiely to withdraw that remark.

Mr. Brendan Kiely

I will not withdraw the remark. I was referring to the sentiment which Mr. Steenson expressed, which is very close to what Sinn Féin expressed.

It was not intended directly for you.

Mr. Roger Cole

Friends seem to be all the rage at the moment. Apparently, I have a friend in Libertas, which is news to me.

Incidentally, Sinn Féin was invited to participate on the platform with Oireachtas Members.

Mr. Roger Cole

PANA played a role, perhaps not a significant one, in winning the first Nice referendum. One of the consequences of that was the establishment of the National Forum on Europe. The national forum is holding meetings throughout the country. There is one chair and one person on the "Yes" side and one on the "No" side and much more time for people to take part in the debate. This is nothing more than a very badly disguised "Yes" campaign, and it is patently obvious from the way it is being run. It is fundamentally undemocratic.

Let us deal with the issues. We believe that the issues of Shannon and the militarisation of Europe are opposite sides of the same coin. It is all part of the militarisation of the US-EU-NATO military-industrial bloc. We have been arguing that for a considerable time. People should keep in touch with the statements of NATO's general secretary. He said, only last week, that NATO and EU forces should collaborate together militarily. Mr. Dermot Quish raised the issue of the exploitation of workers. A recent judgment of the European Court of Justice struck down a law of the German state of Lower Saxony which states that public contracts can only be awarded to companies which pay their employees the minimum wage as agreed in a regional collective agreement. The law also includes sub-contractors. The case was brought before the ECJ because a Polish company had paid according to its national minimum wage, which amounts to 46.5% of the wage prescribed in Lower Saxony. The ECJ ruled that the law imposed restrictions on freedom of movement. In this situation the ordinary workers in Lower Saxony are being shat upon by the European Court of Justice. However, it will not only affect Lower Saxony but Irish workers.

That is what this Union is about — rich people getting richer and the poor getting the hell beaten out of them. Judgments such as the Laval and Viking judgments attack ordinary people. I do not know what the politicians earn but it is more than I earn. The Commissioner earns approximately €250,000. They live in a different world. Reference was made to the fact that I stood for election and did not get elected. That is true but there is a minor detail. Two of the people who got elected spent €50,000 each, while I spent €1,500. That makes a difference. That is where it begins and that is only a local government election. When one gets higher, one gets further away. Money talks. That is the point of the document, Irish Independence or European Superstate. It analyses the militarisation of Europe and shows that it is being funded, supported and encouraged by the arms companies in Europe. This document was written by Carol Fox who, until recently, was the research officer of the Green Party. It goes into detail. She resigned her position as research officer of the Green Party because of her disagreement with the leadership of that party with regard to the militarisation of Europe.

These are two core issues. The attacks on the wages and working conditions of ordinary people not just in Ireland and Lower Saxony but throughout Europe is one reason people should vote "No" to this treaty. Another is the militarisation of Europe. There is a constitutional commitment on Ireland to improve our military expenditure. This year, for the first time, military expenditure on this country's small Army of little over 1,000 members has passed €1 billion. That is not because we have well-paid soldiers but because we must spend far more money on upgrading our military equipment. That is the type of Europe at issue.

I am aware that people have rose-tinted glasses, and that there is much that is good about Europe. It is not all bad but why are we militarising it? We do not need to do so. By voting "No" we will be saying that we do not want that kind of Europe. We want a Europe that is a partnership of independent democratic states — legal equals without a military dimension.

When I advocate a Europe like that I am being a European. I am 99.99% Irish — just a little bit of Europe — because I was born and bred here. This is my country. I get on very well with the French people and German people, but that is what they are — they are French, Germans, Italians or whatever. The Poles and Czechs want to build a military base to have this shield over Europe, to protect so-called Europe from the Iranians, and spend billions on this shield because the Iranians are a real threat. They have a GDP substantially less than Holland, yet 22 of these European countries are in NATO and believe in the first use of nuclear weapons in the event of a war. As an Irish republican, that is not a value in which I believe. I believe those kind of values are shared. In the time allocated, I cannot possibly answer every question. There are documents that people can read if they want. They will have to pay a few bob for them but not €45. We all have to decide what kind of Europe we want. The French were asked, they debated the treaty and voted "No". The Dutch people were asked, they debated the issue and voted "No". So we are not being anti-European, we are showing solidarity with the ordinary people of Europe. The best way of doing that is by voting "No".

I thank our two guest speakers for appearing here and giving of their time, energy and opinions. I also thank my colleagues, some of whom have come a long way. Deputy Timmy Dooley and Deputy John Perry have come a long distance and have a long return journey. I also want to thank our Dublin representatives for being here and for participating.

I have no intention of going back through all the points that have been raised. As regards the Forum on Europe being more democratic than this gathering, this is a plenary session of our statutory committee where members of the public are being asked to participate. They have participated very well and I thank and congratulate them for that. There is no such facility in the forum. Members of the public are only admitted to listen to plenary sessions of the forum. On their roadshow throughout the country, the forum invites participants from the floor. That is the difference. This is a plenary session of this Oireachtas committee.

One or two points need to be borne in mind. Like a lot of other speakers, I would be suspicious of too much power going in one direction. Around the time of the Nice treaty, I had reservations about some of the things that were happening. Whenever anybody mentions the Charter of Fundamental Rights, I get goose-pimples because I was one of the authors involved in the drawing up of that charter some years ago.

I would be very worried if I thought that we were handing over our sovereign power to anybody else. We are a sovereign State with a sovereign Parliament. We have a sovereign Government that makes its own decisions and is not beholden to anybody. Analogies are often incorrectly drawn with other assemblies, although I will not refer to them here. We must always remember, however, that we are a sovereign State. There is nothing in the treaty that changes that simply because we have our own Oireachtas. This committee and Deputy John Perry's committee monitor and examine in detail every move the European institutions are likely to make, in addition to every move our own Taoiseach and Ministers make when they go to Europe to negotiate on our behalf. That facility was not always there but it is now. One speaker mentioned what happened in 2002 and before. We did not have the resources then but we do now and they are being used effectively. I would be loath to support anything that would avoid that.

I also want to mention the question that was raised about nuclear armies. The point has been validly made as to why we should have a European army. We do not have a European army. Ireland has participated in overseas deployments of the Defence Forces since the 1960s under the United Nations mandate. It so happens that about ten years ago, a situation was developing in eastern Europe after the fall of the Berlin Wall where old positions began to re-emerge. The audience might recall that at a particular time safe havens were created for communities in particular situations in Croatia and various other places. While on holidays a couple of years ago, I took it upon myself to go there and examine the current scene. At that time, however, we remember that we saw Europe looking on.

Somebody said that Europe did not have the guts to intervene, but Europe did not have the means to do so. The UN was there at the time and it was overwhelmed because it did not have an adequate mandate, sufficient resources or the wherewithal to deal with the situation. The result was a terrible tragedy where almost 10,000 people were massacred while the rest of the world looked on. That was a sad flaw in Europe's ability to defend itself, to defend democracy and convince people to cease fire and negotiate. It failed because too many of the participants in Europe had previous history in the region.

At that time, I was a member of the Committee on Foreign Affairs, which debated the matter at length. We met with all the ambassadors from France, Russia, Italy, Britain, Germany and elsewhere. They tried to resolve the problem but they could not. That is why, while not changing dramatically from what Ireland has been doing in the past under the UN mandate, the European Union now sees fit to produce something that will be at least a means — a buffer — of ensuring that there is no repetition of the kind of things that happened in Srebrenica where 8,000 people were slaughtered. That was a blight and a blot on Europe and on all of us. It should never happen again.

The EU has created a great deal of freedom in respect of women. The point was well made concerning women and women's rights. Europe led the way on that far faster than the Irish, British or any other governments were doing. Those governments rightly did a great deal but it probably would not have happened nearly as quickly were it not for the European Community at that time.

The European Union has created a lot of freedoms. The Schengen agreement was correctly mentioned. We met the European Commissioner, Mr. Bettini, and raised that issue not so long ago. He was satisfied that given the undertaking by the Irish Government, as Schengen now presents itself, it is workable. It will be dealt with on a case by case basis. There may be a change when it is seen how it will operate but there is not a problem there. I understand the points raised as to why we do not have the freedom of travel we are supposed to have.

The other point is that of blaming Europe, a trap into which we have fallen from time to time. We have all blamed Europe for something that happened in the past. However, all the things that emanate from Europe now, and for quite a long time, were only the things that we ourselves initiated, passed, legislated for and negotiated. Or, to put it more directly, the people we elected did that. We cannot continue to blame Europe when it suits us.

The young man from ACRA made a number of interesting points, including power to the people and the excess of power to the Commission. That is definitely not the case, however, as the Commission is not gaining anything. I was one of the people who strongly supported the retention of a Commissioner in each member state, and did so up to very recently. Having re-examined the matter, however, I have changed my mind. While it is true that the Commission will be divided up and that over a 15-year period we will have a one-third influence in the Commission, that is a better arrangement, although people may be shocked that I say so. It does address one issue in that it ensures all countries will be equal and no single country will have greater influence than the other. It also addresses the question of a Commissioner, or group of Commissioners, in a particular country, whether powerful or otherwise, running away from the issue and going off on a solo run. They will always have to have regard for those coming alongside them, those coming behind them and those who have gone before them. There are more safety devices in this treaty than there have been before, and I would be the first to point out otherwise.

The question of the democratic reflectiveness of the Oireachtas, that is, that it does not represent all opinion, is a fair one. However, we have made provision for the representation of all in the Oireachtas. This is a committee of the Oireachtas which can only represent the Oireachtas. That arises from the way people vote in a general election. We cannot change that. This is the purest form of democracy one will ever get because everybody has the right to vote. It is the hope that everybody will participate and that 100% of people will vote in general elections but, unfortunately, it does not happen that way. That is the true system of democracy. We cannot change it if people do not vote for those they believe should represent the country. However, we do our best. Members of the committee have always tried to accommodate the other side of the argument. We always try to encourage each member of the committee to speak his or her mind and to be aggressively objective. I will not say anything further because everything has been covered by other speakers.

This is a historic occasion in that we have had public participation in our meeting. I hope it will be the first of many successful ventures by Oireachtas committees. The time has come for the public to participate and to get involved on a one to one basis with their elected representatives. It is no good complaining about the system and saying it does not work if we do not make it work. This committee proposes to do just that in this instance.

Other meetings have been arranged. We will proceed on the same basis and in the same format and will travel all over the country. Our next meeting is this night week in the Harbour Hotel in Galway at 8.30 p.m. I do not expect everybody to travel but if people do so, they will be more than welcome.

I pay special tribute to our guest speakers Brendan Kiely and Roger Cole who did not agree with each other but were invited to air their views and for the audience and committee to respond. They have done that very effectively.

The views expressed here will be encompassed in the report which the committee will publish prior to the referendum and which will also be published on the Internet. We expect that the information we give will be accurate and reliable. I and members of the committee will do our utmost to ensure that is the case. I thank everybody, including the members who stayed so late, the Oireachtas staff members, our guest speakers, the Garda, the college, the college staff and the students' union.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.45 p.m. until 8 p.m. on Thursday, 17 April 2008.
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