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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Ireland's Future in the European Union) díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 Nov 2008

Discussion with Newspaper Representatives.

I welcome our guests, Ms Ann Cahill and Mr. Frank Cullen. The sub-committee was set up to examine Ireland's future in the European Union in the light of the Lisbon treaty referendum result. We received four terms of reference from the Government and have turned each one into a work module. We are focusing on public understanding of the European Union, the factors that influence it and the work that could be done to improve it. This forms the main part of the final week of public hearings. That is why we invited our guests. We thank them for the contributions they are about to make. We will allow them ten minutes each. I will then hand over to my colleagues who will each have ten minutes to put questions. After our guests have responded, anyone who has not spoken will have six minutes to do so.

Deputy Costello wishes to make a comment before I hand over to our guests.

I do not want to interrupt the proceedings but I wish to clarify what I said in an earlier session. I referred to the fact that from some of the media coverage, one would think Mr. Ganley had had a brainstorming or barnstorming session in this committee room. I make it clear that I was not referring to The Irish Times, which I described as having a fair, impartial and thorough presentation of the arguments in respect of the Lisbon treaty from the beginning. It covers European issues comprehensively.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the sub-committee have absolute privilege, this privilege does not extend to witnesses appearing before the sub-committee.

Ms Ann Cahill

I thank the Chairman. I have a submission that is rather long but I will get through as much as possible in the time available to me.

I have worked in Brussels for the Irish Examiner for seven years, during which time I have covered two treaties, the Nice and Lisbon treaties, and the subsequent referendums. My job as Europe correspondent mainly revolves around the European Union. I see it as reporting to readers of the Irish Examiner on what is happening that affects their lives. My role here is not to give the sub-committee arguments for or against the Lisbon treaty or the European Union but as a journalist, I am in favour of telling the people the facts and letting them decide for themselves.

Reporting on what happens in the European Union is difficult because, first and foremost, very few understand what it is. This is compounded by people's inaccurate perceptions that get in the way of them understanding much of what is happening. To try to explain needs more space than the 400 words I have to write a story. For instance, who really knows what are the European Commission, the Council of Ministers, the European Parliament, the Court of Justice, not to mention the Court of Auditors, the Economic and Social Committee, the Committee of the Regions, COREPER 1, COREPER 2, and working groups?

When I want to talk about a department of the Commission, can I really say the Directorate General and be confident I am not losing the reader? This is before we get around to the Presidents of the Commission, the Council — which changes every six months — and the Parliament. When I refer to a summit of EU leaders, I wonder whether readers understand that this is not an august body of people which inhabits a spot in Brussels, or if they realise it is a meeting of equals that includes the person whom they have elected to lead the country. Similarly, if I write about the Council of Ministers or refer to Finance Ministers from the member states, do they know that this is not a Brussels quango but includes the Irish Minister for Finance sitting as an equal at a table with his colleagues? When I write about the European Commission, do people think it is an all powerful body, frequently out of control and with which our powerless little Government does battle now and again to defend our interests or get money to which we are entitled or stop it battering us to death? The evidence from the Lisbon treaty referendum suggests they do not know the facts, which suggests a public education campaign would be useful.

There are no equivalents of the EU institutions in the Irish system. The Commission is not the Civil Service, the Parliament is not the Dáil and the Council is not the Government. Perhaps a simple graph showing how the institutions relate to one another would be a good start, but this on its own would only tell part of the story. What makes sense of much of the European Union is the role of the Government and the Permanent Representation, the missing links in public understanding. The Permanent Representation with its 90 civil servants is based in Brussels. The hundreds more civil servants who travel there regularly and others from the Garda Síochána and the Army play their role. Those members of civil society frequently involved in Brussels meetings are known by just a few. The sub-committee will know how the Permanent Representation operates but saying its role is to "influence" and "represent" and be "closely involved" might suggest it is outside the action while, in fact, it is an integral part of the European Union and where Irish representatives have an equal say around the table. Ireland is a small country and our Permanent Representation of 90 civil servants is tiny compared to the 900 or so that the larger countries have. I agree we have to save our ammunition and find our allies, like any others operating in a group.

The other piece of vital information that is frequently missing is on the role the Government plays. The member state governments rule the European Union, including the Commission, even though it is often portrayed as an independent body answerable to nobody. All of the Commission's proposed legislation has to be approved by the governments and the Parliament and can be amended and changed as they wish or ultimately dumped. The result of people not knowing about the Government's role is that they have no way of judging what is happening on their behalf at EU level. Therefore, the perception is that the European Union is a monster breathing fire at Ireland. When one considers the evidence, it is easy to see why they might think this.

I ask the sub-committee to consider some examples. On water charges, when agreeing this issue, the Government exempted domestic houses but did not include schools. The Commission stated the Government could return to the issue and exempt schools but the Government declined and blamed the European Union for the charges on schools. On the bank bail-outs, it was pointed out to the Government that the bank guarantee scheme was not in line with EU competition rules and some officials were sent to Dublin to work it out. This disregard of the rules was considered so serious that both the French and German leaders referred to it as something that must be avoided if we were to get through the economic crisis together. Rather than taking responsibility, the Government encouraged the public perception in the Seanad and elsewhere that we had been unfairly treated.

On the disclosure of passenger name records to the United States, the Joint Committee on European Affairs was critical of this decision and stated there was a danger of the European Union of moving towards a surveillance society, but a former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is on record as saying that whatever information the Americans wanted, he was happy to give them on the basis that they were allies. This week the Minister for Transport was prepared to give even more information apparently in one-to-one negotiations with the United States.

On the temporary agency workers directive, trade unions were up in arms over the failure to agree to these measures designed to protect workers and the Government was very reticent to admit it was objecting to it. With the British, it delayed it for a long time before signing up to it, but not before alarming trade unions and workers and giving the impression that the European Union was ready to work against their interests.

On justice issues, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform decided that the non-EU spouses of EU citizens should not be automatically allowed to join them in Ireland, that they would first have to live for a number of years in another EU country. This does not apply to US citizens. The Department briefed the media on this issue and produced statistics that showed there was a significant number of suspect marriages. It instanced the unusually large number of Latvians marrying non-EU citizens. The European Court of Justice found that Irish law interfered with the fundamental EU principle of freedom of movement and that if there was a problem with sham marriages, the Government should deal with it but not by interfering with this core EU value.

On fishing, fishermen said they would vote against the Lisbon treaty because the European Union was doing nothing to help them. At the time the Government was late in submitting its operational programme to draw down €42 million in EU funds. At the same time, while making plans to provide funds for fishermen in difficulties over the big increase in fuel charges, the Government wanted a 100% rather than a 30% contribution from the European Union.

On stem cell research, Irish campaigners thought it was a case of being for or against embryonic stem cell research and celebrated when Ministers could not agree. In fact, it was about putting in place guidelines and the disagreement meant that no guidelines for funding were agreed.

On the environment, Ireland has the second highest number of cases in the European Union for infringements of Government legislation. Legislation negotiated, agreed to and signed by the Government designed to keep water drinkable and waterways healthy was either ignored, not enforced or transposed incorrectly into Irish law. When the Commission took action through the courts, the Government's approach was to fight it. An EU expert said Ireland's usual response was to fight such cases when the money and time doing so could have been used to right the situation, which it is eventually forced to do by the courts.

Confusing the public is not always about being silent. Sometimes it is simply a matter of how a story is spun. As a result, certain stories involve just one issue. The Common Agricultural Policy is all about getting more money for our farmers. However, the headline, "Great news, the price of food just went up," is more likely than, "Great news, more money for farmers". A news story concerning agreement to overfish already imperilled stocks will more usually have the headline, "Fishermen win quota for next year".

Portraying the EU budget as a great waste of our money is another common theme. Frequently, it is based on the amount of money going to agriculture. Claiming half goes to farming ignores the fact that it is the only policy on which member states spend nothing because they have handed the money to the Union to distribute.

Robber Brussels is another news story that normally ignores the fact that the failure of the Court of Auditors to sign off on the accounts is down to the failure of the member states to ensure the rules were obeyed in providing money for projects. The Commission has the responsibility to see to it that they do. Great Brussels bureaucracy is another theme that lacks context. For instance, it is two thirds the size of the Irish Civil Service.

This leads to another question: what position does the Government take on issues in the European Union? Often nobody knows or, at least, not the ordinary person. Journalists are used to gathering information that is not easily available. However, getting the details from the Commission and the European Parliament is easy. They put most of it on-line for ordinary citizens to access in 22 languages. They include information on the consultations which take place, the submissions received and debates. Even lobbyists are encouraged to put on-line the details of who they work for and what they are paid.

For journalists, the problem arises when it comes to finding out what the Government wants. Sometimes it is happy enough with the proposals from the Commission. It can go along with whatever changes other EU governments and the European Parliament want to make. However, sometimes that is not the case and finding out can pose a major problem, with some Departments remaining more silent than others, even on issues such as the policies they opt into.

The issue of whether the European Union has democratic legitimacy arises frequently and is often raised by member state governments. Some years ago their answer to this charge was to incorporate local elected representatives and members of civil society into two advisory bodies. It was envisaged that this would allow views from the bottom up to filter through and influence the Commission in drawing up proposals for legislation. These became the European Economic and Social Committee and the European Regional Committee. They are full of good people from every country, including Ireland, who have been appointed by their governments. There is no way one can apply to be part of them and no voting required. Perhaps there should.

Some years later the issue came up again at a summit in Belgium when EU governments stated the democratic deficit was the reason the public was disenchanted with the European Union. To close this gap, they would stop debating the future direction of the Union and decide on a long-term strategy. This would be a new treaty and, to prove the Union could not be accused of lacking democratic legitimacy, they would set up a body comprising elected public representatives from every country, including the candidates, and have them devise the EU constitution. It was probably the only treaty in history drawn up by elected representatives from all parties, governments and the Opposition, with input an by civil society. Despite this, with the closely related Lisbon treaty, it is still stuck with the tag of lacking democratic legitimacy. The European Union is accused of being undemocratic, even though it is under the control of properly elected governments. They operate within the system of representative democracies where politicians are elected to take actions on behalf of the electorate on the basis that if the public does not approve, it will vote them out next time around.

How was Ireland perceived after the rejection of the Lisbon treaty? Initially, the main reaction was disappointment on the part of those who would have liked to see it go through. This was followed by shock and frustration when it emerged that lack of information, abortion, neutrality, corporation tax, Commissioners and army conscription were the reasons people had voted "No". To understand this reaction we must consider the campaign. EU institutions and politicians were warned by the Government not to become involved in the debate and felt frustrated when it became apparent there had been no real campaign in Ireland. The Government, during its six-month EU Presidency in 2004, came up with several compromise solutions that broke the impasse and had the EU constitution agreed. Despite this, it was not willing or able to defend or explain its close relative, the Lisbon treaty, to the electorate. The principal Irish politician involved in the conclusion of the treaty said he had not read it. While the Government and the IFA were having a stand-off, the colleagues of the much-disliked Commissioner for Trade, Peter Mandelson, got involved in the WTO issue and got the message across that Ireland does not have a veto over any final deal at EU level.

Finland, Sweden, Malta and Austria do not have any fears for their neutrality but, despite appending declarations to previous treaties, the Irish still do. Despite having a relatively high rate of abortions secured abroad and having made abortion lawful in the event of a mother's life being at risk it has secured a declaration saying the law will not be changed, unlike Malta, which retains a total ban on abortion. Few know that the Irish courts have urged the Government to legislate in this regard and that opinion polls show a shift in public opinion. With regard to tax, the veto remains, not just for Ireland, but most other countries want it too. Under the Nice treaty, some countries would lose their Commissioner next year, while it would not happen for another five years under Lisbon, but this fact was not relayed. With regard to the issue of conscription, there is no EU army, and three of the nine EU member states that have conscription are neutral countries.

Some countries encourage and help their brightest students to seek jobs in EU institutions — for example, by funding their six-month student experience — but not Ireland. Because salaries have improved so much here and the competition from the new member states is intense, the number of Irish officials may not be maintained in the future. Currently the heads of three of the 27 Commissioners' cabinets are Irish, as is the chief civil servant, the Secretary General of the Commission.

There are a limited number of state scholarships to the European College in Bruges, through which many of the most senior civil servants in Brussels, including from Ireland, have passed. However, the scholarships are few and exclude students with Irish language scholarships from their leaving certificate results, which see them through Irish universities but not Bruges. Citizens' summaries are now being produced by the Commission to make proposed legislation understandable to the citizen. It would be a good idea for the Government to make these available on its websites. Member states want to control the flow of information. They refused to join forces with the Parliament and the Commission to have a one-stop shop in each capital. Why would the Irish Government not agree to have such a one-stop shop in Dublin and work with the offices of the Parliament and Commission here?

I thank Ms Cahill. We need to hand over to Mr. Cullen, but we did circulate your submission to everybody, so they have had an opportunity to read it all. I am sure they will bring up any issues with you.

Mr. Frank Cullen

I am the co-ordinating director of National Newspapers of Ireland and I have been asked to represent NNI today. NNI is the representative body for Ireland's national newspapers and Irish editions of UK newspapers. We have 18 members in total. Our role is to promote the use of the newspaper medium and to work on a range of professional and public policy issues affecting the industry. On behalf of NNI I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to appear before the sub-committee and address the issues relating to the public's understanding of the EU and Ireland's membership. NNI cannot speak for the editorial policy and content of individual titles. The collective would never seek to influence the individual. We can only attempt to provide a broad industry view of the issues being examined.

In a free and democratic society the role of newspapers is to provide news and opinions to its readers, free of political influence and direction. That means it is not the role of newspapers to make the EU relevant at the behest of Government or anyone else. A newspaper should not be inhibited in taking an editorial stance on a particular issue. The role of a newspaper is essentially to publish what it believes is of interest and relevance to its readers. It is a very competitive environment, and getting the content and balance right is key to maintaining circulation and advertising revenues. However, at the same time, as it reflects the views and preferences of its readers, it is also generally accepted that a newspaper editor must reflect a diversity of views and not just one side of an argument. Although this cannot really be legislated for, it is clear that there cannot be freedom of expression if newspapers do not provide a conduit for diverse views. NNI member titles and publishers are in fact committed to such diversity.

Notwithstanding the fact of Ireland's 35-year membership of the EU, it is true that much of what happens in the EU and other member states does not appear in the national press. There is a significant difference between the degree and content of EU coverage in various titles. That is mainly a reflection of reader preferences. However, over time we believe there has been more reporting on European issues that are seen as relevant to Irish readers. If there has not been greater coverage this has, arguably, reflected the failure of the Government and European institutions to get the "European" message across. Getting the message across should not be confined to election time. It should be done on an ongoing basis. Playing a blame game is not particularly helpful. However, one possible explanation for a relatively low specific EU content in newspapers may reflect that in many areas the Government or Irish agencies implement EU rules in a way that disguises the EU origin of any given story. In reporting French President Sarkozy's contribution in trying to resolve the current financial crisis the press has often been encouraged to forget that he is the acting President of the EU Council of Ministers.

In seeking solutions to any EU information deficit it is clearly important to respect the independence of the press. There are ways in which individual titles could seek to give a broader coverage without compromising that independence, for example, by making space available for opinions from EU players. Editors always need to be proactive in anticipating and, to a certain extent, in forming reader requirements. However, in the final analysis the importance of the story is always critical. The role of the EU and other international bodies in addressing the current financial crisis is a clear case in point.

It is important that those seeking to promote EU content engage with the press in an attempt to make the story more relevant to readers. In general, one suspects, the Community institutions do not push news stories issued as press releases. Although the Commission and European Parliament representations do their best, perhaps they could do more and editors could do more to encourage them. Commissioning advertising supplements may also help to get the message across.

There is a high level of newspaper readership in Ireland across all age groups. Nine out of ten people aged 15 and over regularly read newspapers. NNI member titles, therefore, provide a highly effective medium through which EU institutions, the Government and others can seek to develop public understanding of and engagement with the EU. NNI members will play their part in a way that is compatible with freedom of the press.

There may be a suggestion that newspapers are not pulling their weight. However, at the beginning of the Lisbon referendum process NNI pro-actively engaged with the Government, with the Referendum Commission and with many others to suggest ways in which the press could be utilised to inform the voter and thus create a debate and interest. We proposed the use of press advertisements and supplements to explain salient points to the voter. People generally trust newspapers, making them an excellent medium through which to communicate and explain complex issues in particular, to give information, to counter arguments and, essentially, to facilitate a more informed debate. Success in this regard had already been demonstrated in Nice II.

It was not for newspapers in general to support one result over another. However, the newspapers were able and willing to provide the medium for debate and they provided such a medium. However, the media cannot improve a poor message. The committee might very well add a further question to its brief, if it has not already done so. It is: Did the main political and institutional players provide the right material for debate that could be used by the press and understood by the voters?

They are some general observations I can make, speaking on behalf of the general industry.

Thank you very much, Mr. Cullen.

I thank the Chair and welcome our guests very warmly. I have been very interested in their two very different presentations which were very informative for us in the work we are doing on this committee. I have read Ms Cahill's material in the Irish Examiner throughout her time as Europe correspondent and she is one of the best. She provided excellent coverage which I always found very informative. During the second Nice campaign I recall very good quality articles which appeared in the Irish Examiner, produced by the witnesses, for which I commend them. Their presentation today is so forthright it certainly has not let us down. It gets to the nub of some of the problems we and the Government have in terms of masking the EU initiative, taking credit for the positive elements and scapegoating Europe when things go wrong. That is a huge problem we face.

Perhaps the delegation could elaborate on a couple of the issues it raised. The examples given are illuminating for anybody who has not seen them or heard of them before. I will not go through them. The delegation said the public has no way of judging what is happening on its behalf in the EU. I fully agree with that. It is remote and there is a quagmire of information that is inaccessible at departmental level here. Has the delegation any specific ideas on how we can make that information more accessible for journalists and the public? There is a proposal on the table to create a facility to promote European affairs and to create an access point in the Oireachtas in regard to European affairs and what is happening at a European level. I take from some of what the delegation has said that there is no point in establishing something that will rival the work of the European Commission office and the parliament office, as they should work in tandem. Perhaps the delegation will elaborate on how that works in other countries where it might be of benefit to us?

In regard to democratic legitimacy, the crux, correct me if I am wrong, is that the democratic deficit does not lie at European level but at domestic level. Has the delegation any particular proposals or ideas as to how can we enhance that democratic legitimacy? It is an issue we have been looking at in some depth in the sub-committee in recent weeks, in terms of the scrutiny of legislation. Even that term turns people off. We need to address this and understand what is happening at EU level and make that available and accessible to the public.

I accept Mr. Frank Cullen's point on the issue of coverage. As does any democrat, I value the absolute need for freedom of the press and freedom to express opinion within the media. He seems to say that unsatisfactory coverage is a failure of Government and points to the fact that the Government on occasion disguises the origin of EU initiatives. I agree with him in principle but if he has any examples of that I would be interested to hear them.

Mr. Cullen mentioned the aspiration of the media, the print media in particular, to be balanced and fair in its coverage, obviously respecting the right to take a particular editorial position. I have a concern here. People who have been around these Houses much longer than I have been and who have been involved in politics and political discourse for decades would say that there has been a significant shift from what used to be very informative and investigative journalism to a more opinion-based type of writing in our newspapers today where there is a very partisan view. I can think of certain examples in the Irish press today where a particularly partisan view is taken. Often it is top of the head stuff where journalists just pen to paper and do not do any background research. We saw numerous examples during the course of the Lisbon treaty campaign, in particular, where statements by one side or the other with factual inaccuracies were not challenged but incorporated into an article and reported as fact when they were incorrect. It is a disservice by the print media on those occasions when they do not delve into these issues and ensure they provide accurate information as opposed to taking comments from a group or individual that back up the media slant on something. It is a problem because we see more and more British-based media organisations in Ireland. Traditionally, they have taken a Eurosceptic line and are prepared to push that agenda in this country. That is unfortunate because we should have factual debates rather than opinion that is not grounded in fact.

Ms Ann Cahill

I refer to how one can make it understandable. Some of it is a load of nonsense because it is no more complex than many other things. It depends on how one looks at it or if someone wants to get the message across. What people need are the tools; they do not understand that Ireland is part of the European Union. Sometimes it looks as if we did not really join, that the political parties and civil servants did not join. We are still behaving as if we have been colonised by the British, instead of which we have been colonised by the European Union. Someone needs to ask why this is the case. Is it because politicians play it this way for their own reasons? If so, we must take the consequences that go with it.

I refer to the idea of a one stop shop. The Commission is producing citizen summaries of legislation. It is a good base and there is no reason they should not be made available for the upcoming legislation, but with the understanding that it is the first draft and will be changed. The Government should have the opinion that it is willing to state on these matters whether it is happy. Some are very straight on this such as the Scandinavians and the Dutch; these are the only countries which tell us from where their Governments or others, including the Irish Government, are coming from. In most cases one cannot find this out from the Irish Government.

Not everyone will be interested in spreading the word but one must get rid of the misconceptions. Some of the letters to the media are pathetic and make me want to cry because people want to be involved and feel strongly about matters but the information and perceptions on which they are working are so inaccurate that one does not know where to begin.

"Democratic legitimacy" is a great phrase but nonsense in a democratic society to a large extent. The sad thing is that it is taken up by those who are democratically legitimate such as governments which talk about the European Union lacking democratic legitimacy. In fact, these governments give it democratic legitimacy. We believe in representative democracy, that is where we are coming from. That there are faceless bureaucrats or elites is such a load of nonsense. Every item of legislation can be changed or dumped by governments. It is governments which run the European Union but it took me quite a while to understand this. It is not readily recognisable and one is not told.

Mr. Frank Cullen

On the issue of balance, as Ms Cahill said, in general the State is quick to take the credit in a European sense and it is quick to blame Europe. There is a definite contradiction and the committee will need to decide on it. I agree absolutely on the need for accuracy. A Press Council was established last year. It is now in a position to deal with complaints about accuracy and a range of other issues within the code of standards and it will prove its worth over time. There was reference to the increase in competition. There is an increasing Anglophone influence in Europe and Ireland in particular is a very exposed media market, the most exposed media market in the world. While it is a bit off the brief of this committee, I would say that the Government and successive Governments over many years have not created the necessary conditions for a strong indigenous press. They have failed to take the yoke off the back of the indigenous media to enable it to compete adequately with imported media. For example, the UK has a zero rate of VAT while we have the highest rate of VAT in Europe. We had an understanding with Government that the industry would set up and fund an independent press council, operating at arm's length from the industry, while at the same time the Government would reform the defamation legislation which dates back to 1961, but it still has not done so. The 1961 Act is based on an earlier 1950s British Act and legislation dating back more than a century. There are many other examples I could give the committee. Perhaps the chickens are coming home to roost.

I thank Ms Cahill and Mr. Cullen for their contributions and for enlightening us in this area.

I agree with everything Deputy Creighton said about the quality of Ms Cahill's work over the years with the Irish Examiner. I will read her submission again as it gives a fascinating insight into the internal workings of the European Union, the relationship with our Government and her perceptions of the treaty campaign. This has been extremely valuable.

Ms Cahill has described the Government as not being entirely innocent in the manner in which it deals with the European Union. I presume she is referring to successive Governments and not just the present Government. She describes the Government as using the European Union to its advantage in a highly politicised fashion so that it is silent on certain issues in respect of its own role. The temporary agency workers directive is an example given by Ms Cahill. It gave us significant grief in the course of the treaty campaign. The Government constantly asserted that it had done everything possible for workers' rights and that it did not stand in the way of the implementation of the directive. At the same time the trade union movement was tearing its hair out at the fact that Ireland and the United Kingdom were the two countries standing in the way of the implementation of the directive, a directive which the much-maligned Commission had been seeking to be implemented since 2000. This is a very relevant matter to show how the Government uses its role as the sole purveyor of information to the people. We are well behind in implementing the directives on environmental issues even though we have signed up to them. Is this a critical issue in terms of the perceived democratic deficit? If so, successive Governments are responsible for much of this because of the manner in which they have manipulated the European Union. They have made it the bogeyman, so to speak, if there was any bad news they wanted to divert from themselves but took credit for the goodies coming from the Union. Will the delegation assess the qualitative, as well as the quantitative, importance of the role of the Government when we are trying to address the issue of democratic deficit? Is it the case that the major player in creating much of the democratic deficit is the Government, the one most directly involved in European affairs?

Ms Cahill stated the initial reaction in Brussels to the defeat of the Lisbon treaty was disappointment. It was followed by shock and frustration when other member states learned that information, abortion, neutrality, corporation tax, Commissioners and army conscription were the reasons people had voted "No". Will she elaborate on what the current feeling is in Brussels? Is there an element of freezing out the Irish at this point? Are we seen as the people who did not make the effort to mount a good campaign and sell the merits of the treaty? Are they prepared to move on?

Ms Cahill's suggestion for progress using a simple graph of the various EU institutions is an excellent idea. Most people in this country, say 95% of people, have no idea what the relationships between the different EU institutions are. During the course of the debate on the treaty, there was no explanation as to the workings of the EU institutions. How could one explain the changes the treaty would bring in if people did not even know this? The one-stop-shop concept is a good idea too.

The Government interacts with Brussels but the Parliament does not. We are expected to hold our Government accountable and scrutinise what it does at EU meetings. We do not, however, have much of a presence with the Commission or the European Parliament. There is no formal institution of a parliamentary council, apart from COSAC. Is there a way the Oireachtas could have an earlier input as to what is going on in Europe than it currently does? Post factum scrutiny is not the same as initial input.

Mr. Cullen was critical of the Government during the campaign, pointing out it takes two sides to tango and the media cannot cover what is not coming from a campaign. I agree it is not enticing for newspaper journalists if there is an inadequate campaign with poor materials presented. The campaign was lacklustre and all of us have to agree this was not our finest hour. I do not want to talk about others, but in general terms it was not the best.

Did the fact that Libertas had started off its campaign by taking out advertisements in the major newspapers, including the ones NNI represents, have an influence on the editorial attitudes of the newspapers? We had a delegation from RTE here earlier and it indicated that Libertas and Sinn Féin had been neck and neck in the volume of coverage they had received. They had vastly outstripped other players in previous referendums, including the Peace and Neutrality Alliance, Cóir, Youth Defence and so on. The amount of coverage given to Libertas by the national broadcaster seemed strange for an ad hoc group which had come out of nowhere and had no credentials, yet it suddenly became the major player on the “No” side. I must ask, therefore, whether the fact that it had taken out full-page advertisements in the newspapers had a major bearing on the degree of coverage it received.

Mr. Frank Cullen

Before Deputy Costello started to ask his questions and while he was addressing Ms Cahill, I made three points. First, it is clear that Ireland and its people are not as engaged as we would like with European matters. Wearing my commercial hat, the Government and the European Union need to invest a great deal more resources in rectifying this. There is a further point which I had written down before the Deputy asked the question about advertising, but it is relevant. The arguments put by the "No" side seemed to be much more understandable to the public. They were simple, straightforward messages which deal with one issue at a time. The responsibility was on the Government, in particular, to demolish these arguments and I could think of no better way of doing this than by taking out full-page advertisements in the newspapers. However, that costs money and I do not think it made that investment. It had a campaign that had been put together in advance but no tactical or reactionary aspects.

My view is that one must state one's case. It was a very complex issue. That was our message when we went around the various bodies months before the campaign began. When I went into one of the European offices and asked for a leaflet on the Lisbon treaty, I was given a directory which was very complex and difficult to understand. Our message was that it needed to be simplified and distilled into meaningful public information. Speaking from the point of view of the newspaper, I can think of no better way than taking out full-page advertisements in the newspaper. It is a matter of reader engagement. This action is noticed by editors, although I do not think it buys the editorial line.

To clarify one point, since the McKenna judgment it has been impossible to spend taxpayers' money in that way. Therefore, the Government——

Mr. Frank Cullen

Somebody has to do it.

——would have had to do it as part of——

Mr. Frank Cullen

It created a vacuum. It left the argument. Who creates the news? Someone has to create it. With respect, Mr. Ganley created the news. None of us knew who he was, but he did something that created news. He was here yesterday and members saw this morning's newspapers. He created the news yesterday. I do not create it.

How would Mr. Cullen assess the effectiveness of full-page advertisements? Normally, one sees such ads by Dunnes or Tesco. One sees them in a strictly commercial sense.

Mr. Frank Cullen

There were a number of issues, some of which the Deputy has mentioned, including, for example, a European army and abortion, which needed to be dealt with in a simple, direct way for the sake of the public. Members of the public kept saying during the campaign that they did not understand what the Lisbon treaty was about. It was somebody's task to tell them. I do not believe that was done effectively or that the media were used correctly. It takes investment. If one wants to launch a product in Ireland, it costs many millions of euro to get the message across. There is no cheap way of doing it. Issuing press releases is not good enough. For something like this, where one wants to persuade the population, one must make a big investment, but that investment was not made.

Ms Ann Cahill

There were questions about the role of the Government. To me, there is no European Union. There is us — Ireland is part of the European Union and the European Union is part of Ireland. That point seems to have completely slipped out of focus. Somebody needs to take ownership of it but it has not been done. Until that is understood, nobody will be capable of understanding the European Union or of getting a correct view of what it is. It would be very easy to sell whatever story one wanted after that.

Crossing over and taking into account what Mr. Cullen said, it is very interesting that abortion and neutrality that were so easy to turn into issues were ones that the Government failed to come to terms with. Of the five or six countries that are neutral, we have the softest neutrality. In what way are we neutral? Are we militarily neutral? That has not been resolved and nobody is interested in resolving it. The abortion issue is a time bomb. The courts have said the Government must legislate on it but still it has not done so. These are very easy issues to exploit. Nowhere do they feature in the treaties, but that is beside the point when one is not really running a campaign.

Regarding how the other EU member states view Ireland after the vote, they do not know what to make of us at this stage. They do not understand the cute hoor concept, which leaves them at a bit of a loss in trying to understand us. They see we are due so many billion euro under the CAP, that we are getting €1 million a day in research grants and that we are doing well. Like anybody, they expect that after this we will be careful at least, that we will show some understanding of the European Union's position. Then there is the debacle of the bank bail-out and a Minister asking in the Seanad where was the European Union when it was needed? We all know that has nothing to do with this but it generates a very strange idea among the Irish public and certainly elsewhere in Europe. The European Union just does not know from where Ireland is coming.

Regarding Parliament, there are loads of links with the Dáil, the Oireachtas and every parliament. There is a person specially charged with looking after us if it comes to it. They bring Deputies to the Parliament. One provision in the Lisbon treaty with which the Commission has decided to go ahead is to send drafts of proposed legislation directly to parliaments at the same time as or even before they are sent to the member states. I do not know where they go in Ireland, to whom they are addressed. The question is who gets involved. Does anybody in Ireland really know what he or she is talking about? We are talking about huge amounts of material. Experts are required; civil servants are required to be very well up and available and everybody must have the time to do it. Before it comes up with any legislation, the Commission asks for submissions. It will take them on the web or in writing. It will publish them, unless it is specifically asked not to do so. That is another area in which Deputies could become involved. I am not sure the extent to which there is a cross-over with the MEPs but I am sure it could have happened to a greater extent.

I will invite Deputy Timmins to put his questions but first I wish to ask a few, the first of which is to Mr. Cullen. The question has been raised as to what can be done to put forward another side of the case and deal with some of the issues raised by some of the campaigners. One of the responses was that advertising space needed to be bought to communicate the other side of the argument or to criticise, challenge or demolish some of the assertions made at the time by the "No" side during the Lisbon treaty referendum campaign. Is it not the case that the people Mr. Cullen represents have a role to play also? If somebody says "three-year olds are going to forcibly detained," clearly we, as politicians, have a responsibility to challenge this if we believe that is not the case or we disagree with it. Is there not also a responsibility on the publications he represents to look at the facts? On the one hand, he says there is a churn of faxes and press releases from a particular side of the campaign but, on the other, there is a chain of statements that are challengeable and which receive huge publicity. Is there not a role for the publications he represents in filtering the truth and challenging on the points being made to support the work others might be doing? I am not saying this applies only to the "No" side; it also applies to the "Yes" side. If somebody was to say there would be an impact on Irish business because of the "No" vote in the Lisbon treaty referendum, independent commentators would have a duty to challenge this and I understand that is the case. What is the duty and role of the publications Mr. Cullen represents in challenging the accuracy of the points being made, particularly when some of the claims made are so strong that at the very least they merit some form of scrutiny, as opposed to being just repeated?

In her contribution Ms Cahill wondered whether some people believed we were part of the European Union. She wondered whether some people thought this was still a British colony. Does she really believe this? Does she believe there are people who are not Irish who believe we are still part of the British Empire? It was such a strong statement that I am interested to hear why she believes that to be the case. We are trying to understand how people in Ireland perceive the European Union and how people elsewhere perceive us. If I have quoted her correctly, perhaps Ms Cahill would embellish and develop that point.

In her written statement which is helpful but to which we did not get there is a point on discrimination in dealing with sensitive social issues. She made an interesting point about which I would like to hear more. She said there had been a debate here about the law that allowed religious institutions to discriminate as regards those they employ on the grounds of ethos. In pushing to be allowed to continue this discrimination will there be a debate at national level on whether those who wish to pursue it will be faced by a double edged sword? I invite Ms Cahill to explain this a little more.

Ms Ann Cahill

Just to rephrase on one matter, one cannot argue for a treaty or anything else until the public understands the EU for itself. Even what we are doing now, rushing around asking if we can get a Commissioner, an opt-out or an opt-in, is a bit like telling kids not to be afraid of the dark. Perhaps the best idea is to switch on the light and let them see for themselves. That is where I am at. Switch on the light, give people the facts and let them decide for themselves.

Regarding the Chairman's question on the British and Irish, I do not know if I put it that strongly. I may have thought it but I did not put it that strongly. Sometimes I am inclined to think there is that mind set, that we are not fully over being colonised and that we are not quite grown up. There is a close relationship between Britain and Ireland and it has become closer if anything. It is understandable given that we have so much in common, not just language. There are so many Irish who have lived in and influenced Britain. At EU level we share a liberal economic view and have a similar Anglo-American outlook on matters. We both see the Americans as strong allies. We are closely aligned with the UK but sometimes it is used as an excuse, such as in the area of justice. All too quickly we say that we must take a certain course because the British are doing so and otherwise we will be on our own. Some legal experts, who I have asked about this, say that German law is as different from French law as British law is from French law. I am not convinced by the approach we take on that. Many of the issues that arise are a throwback to issues we have not resolved nationally.

Discrimination is an example of an issue we have not got our heads around. I am not sure if there has been a debate on it. As a woman, I am aware of equality legislation and anything to do with discrimination. I like the principle that we are all equal and that people should not be discriminated against. I am worried by someone making a case to set this aside in a particular instance. Let us consider Ireland today. What gave rise to this was that Ireland was a very different place 20 years ago. In terms of religious ethos, Ireland is very different. It is a concept that can be legislated on and can change. I am more in favour of sticking with the principle. We are safer with that.

Mr. Frank Cullen

The question needs to be put to editors. The committee will meet editors later and it is not for me to speak for editors or editorial policy. They strive for balance. Irish newspapers publish what is relevant and of interest to their readers. Some issues are news, some are not. Some can be packaged, some need to be sold using commercial means. Advertising has a role to play. Look at the US elections and how much money was spent on selling the campaigns.

Newspapers and journalists need to ask the difficult questions, it is part of our role. There is no agenda in not asking difficult questions of certain people.

Nor was I implying that.

Mr. Frank Cullen

It is not for the media to create that engagement on this issue; it is up to the EU and to Government to engage the media with a view to informing the public on EU matters. One of my key points was that we cannot do this just at election time as it needs to be done on an ongoing basis. Clearly there is an issue that goes beyond just press statements, press releases and expecting somebody else to do it. There has to be engagement and an investment which must be quite committed. I do not think any one solution fits all, it is rather a mix of things. If we all knew the answer we would be fortune-tellers but we are not.

I thank Ms Cahill and Mr. Cullen for their contributions which I followed over the monitor. I read Ms Cahill's submission. I stated earlier that politicians do not want the media to fight their battles for them but the media is the conduit for our message. A commentator said recently that if there was to be a re-run of the referendum, politicians would have to engage the public by going to the town halls. Fine Gael held numerous meetings. We sent out more than 1,200 letters to various groups in advance of one meeting and only 19 of them came to the meeting. This is the battle we have. I agree with Ms Cahill on the issue of the colonial mindset. The Irish still subconsciously regard themselves as part of Britain and this is evidenced by our reluctance to pay tax and by our "No" vote which is a way of saying, "Let's give the authorities a good kick up the rear end" when in reality we are doing it to ourselves. It is the reason people in the public sector leave taps running in the evening because they think someone else is paying for the water. There is an attachment to the United States and England as opposed to Europe.

The issues of abortion and neutrality were raised. The Lisbon treaty states definitively that the member state is in control of those issues. I understand the point made that while the Lisbon treaty provides that certainty, there is grave uncertainty in Ireland as to what it will mean. I am not an advocate of neutrality. We should be full participants in the Common Foreign and Security Policy. I know Mr. Cullen is reluctant to become involved with individual editors but I refer to a headline in a newspaper which stated, "Mr. Ganley tells TDs to get over it", in that we lost the vote. One of the main tenets of Libertas was the argument that we could renegotiate the treaty but yet it was not in a position to say what it wanted to see renegotiated. The claim about the detention of three year olds was an outlandish claim. The view on the sort of Europe Libertas wants to see was not articulated. It is unfortunate the only thing people remember is the heading. They read it and they see it on the news and very few have the interest to read the small print of detail. I acknowledge that I am biased in my view. A fairer headline might have been that Libertas failed to come up with any suggestion as to what it may do.

I listened to Ms Cahill say that abortion and conscription were not issues and Mr. Cullen said that newspapers write what is of interest to their readers. I do not wish to harp on but it is the case that the Tánaiste confused the number of Commissioners. However, I have not yet seen a headline to say that the leader of the "No" campaign, Libertas, was inaccurate in an assertion or that the president of Sinn Féin was inaccurate in an assertion that we would lose control over our tax affairs or that the "No" side was inaccurate. Maybe they have been stated as inaccuracies but I have not come across it yet.

The National Newspapers of Ireland is committed to diversity of opinion. Will Mr. Cullen comment on British newspapers circulating in Ireland? According to a report in one of today's newspapers, it appears they were not committed to diversity of opinion. While Mr. Cullen suggested that newspaper editors can take a line on an issue, Irish-based print media does offer an alternative opinion. Today's edition of The Irish Times had an article which would be supportive of a “No” vote if there were a re-run of the referendum, although its editorial policy was supportive of the “Yes” vote during the campaign. Does Mr. Cullen have a view on newspapers that do not have such a diversity of opinion? Where does that sit with the freedom of information concept?

The other issue that arose was providing the right material for debate. I would like to think that those on the "Yes" side who may have given out some inaccuracies during the treaty campaign would have done so inadvertently, due more to a lack of knowledge or understanding. I always thought we tried to be logical and practical. I find in politics with the media, if one is practical, pragmatic and logical, one will get into the small print. If one, however, is outrageous and alarmist one gets the big print. Is the commercial interest of the newspaper the overriding factor?

This morning Mr. Cathal Goan said the "No" side was more concise and clear, while the "Yes" side spent its time refuting, explaining and defending. Would the guests have advised the "Yes" campaign in an irresponsible and emotive manner? If there were to be a second referendum, should the "Yes" side come out with slogans such as "Vote 'Yes' or else Intel closes down", "Vote 'Yes' or else €16 billion in foreign direct investment will go out the door", "Hello 'No', Goodbye Jobs". Is that the way we should go? I do not believe it would become the "Yes" side as there is an onus on us to deal with factual information but some times one has to fight fire with fire.

Mr. Frank Cullen

Press freedom, to me has to be the cornerstone. Editors are free to operate to that principle. They have a responsibility to offer a diversity of views and provide that platform.

Newspapers are commercial entities and depend on circulation sales and advertising. Without readers, however, they would not exist. They first must find the readers to buy their newspapers, create income and, on the back of getting sufficient numbers of readers, sell advertising. It is not as simple as one or the other. If a newspaper just panders to commercial activity it will not exist. It must first serve its readers. By serving its readers, it creates a platform for advertisers to invest their money. For me, at all times, the interest of the reader outweighs all other interests. That is at the core of all newspapers; the more successful they are, the more important that is.

Everyone must look into their own soul as to what went wrong in this campaign. The voter was either not convinced or was more convinced by one side than by the other. It is not because anyone set out with a certain agenda. There were people in favour of "No" and people in favour of "Yes", and it would seem the public were more convinced by what they heard on the "No" side. To consider the postering alone, the messages on the "No" side were simple. Posters were put up around the city with monkeys and so on. It is up to the other side to deal with that and to come out with convincing arguments. If one is not satisfied that one's view is being reflected accurately through the editorial columns, one must invest commercially in advertising to get the message across. Everyone is faced with that reality every day if they are trying to persuade the public.

Ms Ann Cahill

One cannot control what the media say, as Mr. Cullen mentioned. They are independent entities. However, if people know the facts they can make up their own minds. We found time and again that people on the "Yes" side did not know the facts, or there were not sufficient people who knew the facts. This was irrespective of what side one was on — in fact, the people on the "No" side did not seem to know their facts either. Until you get across the basic way in which the EU works and the role we play in it, you are operating in a vacuum. No matter what the issue, it will be hijacked — not by one side but by any side. That is my view. Because the level of knowledge of the way in which the EU operates is so poor, it makes it very difficult for me, as a journalist, to report stories.

The witnesses mentioned that the posters on the "No" side were very emotive and clear. However, the research presented to us showed that there was virtually no difference — that the postering on the "Yes" and "No" side cancelled out, despite the perception that the "No" side had a more successful postering campaign. Whether that is right or wrong I do not know, but that is what the research shows.

I will return to the issue of the role of the newspaper editor. If, for example, the Irish Examiner or any newspaper reports that Deputy Costello of the Labour Party says we will double our voting strength at the Council of Ministers, and someone from Libertas comes out and says we will lose influence at the Council of Ministers because our voting strength will decrease dramatically, it is very difficult for the reader to determine the truth. Do the witnesses not think there is a responsibility on the editor to pull out the treaty, take a look and determine which is true? When there are two sides that are completely different, it is hard to convince the public if it is starting off from a position of not even knowing what the basic institutions are, let alone what changes are being made. Should the editor not have a role in adjudicating on the actual issue?

To take up the point mentioned by Mr. Cullen about advertising, what if I take out an advertisement stating that our voting strength actually doubles because we now have what is called a double majority, with a vote per state in addition to the vote based on the population percentage — which is hard to explain to people — and the other side takes out another advertisement to neutralise it?

Mr. Frank Cullen

If it is based on fact, the facts stand. It is there in writing.

The editor's role within the newspaper is to present a diversity of views. It is not necessarily to draw a line and say something is correct.

I agree with the point about diversity of views, but misrepresentation of facts is a different issue. Some of the leading writers of this country, in their columns in newspapers represented by the NNI, gave factually inaccurate information — so much so that afterwards I considered making a complaint to the Press Ombudsman, although in the end I did not do so as I thought it would seem petty. I can almost assure Mr. Cullen that if a complaint had been made about the inaccuracies it would have been found that several of those journalists had been giving out factually incorrect information.

Mr. Frank Cullen

All I can say is that there is a code of practice, and the Office of the Press Ombudsman and the Press Council of Ireland are there to receive complaints of that type.

I wish to add one point, a personal observation. I attend many European meetings of publishers, publishing associations and various others. I was struck that for six to eight months before the referendum actually took place I was being asked in Europe how it would go. There was huge interest in it outside Ireland, but I did not sense the same interest when dealing with the authorities here. In fact, it was quite late before we knew when it would take place. Perhaps there is an issue in that regard to be addressed.

I do not disagree with the last point.

Yesterday, we spoke to Professor Farrel Corcoran, professor of communications in DCU. He gave the committee a written contribution but also mentioned that there was a reluctance on the part of editors to accept material from the European Union, and that journalists had difficulty convincing editors that this would be relevant to their readers. Are editors also often remote from the European Union and do they have little interest in it, like the majority of politicians aside from those at this meeting and a few others? Is it the case that they suffer from the same malaise? Therefore, if there is an extra block on material coming through, no matter how good it is, it will make it more difficult.

The second question arises particularly from Mr. Cullen's statement relating to the commercial side of newspapers' operations. If one wealthy businessman — in this case, Mr. Ganley — takes out a few full-page advertisements over a period of time, it is incumbent on the other side to do likewise. If one follows that line of thinking, the outcome of a referendum on changing the Constitution will depend very much on which side has the most money. It is almost certain that in the future there will be wealthy individuals who will suddenly decide they have a great new patriotic duty to get involved in referenda and will take out full-page advertisements in the newspapers. It will be a battle of the wealthy when changing our Constitution.

There have been many tribunals in recent years dealing with people using money in a corrupt fashion or politicians being in contact with wealthy business people who might have had another agenda. We do not know what those agendas are. We still do not know what the agenda was of the individual we spoke to yesterday. He suddenly appeared on the scene out of nowhere, became a major player and got more time than many other bodies and individuals who have been on the scene all the time. Are we not moving onto terribly dangerous ground if it becomes dependent on that type of commercial purchase of space in the various media?

Mr. Frank Cullen

I am strongly and categorically of the belief that the Libertas press advertisements did not in any way influence the editorial line, but I am confident they got noticed. I believe they should have been countered by corresponding press advertisements by the other side. That is reasonable. One need only look at the US elections and see the moneys invested to persuade the people.

With regard to the point about the editor and his or her interest in EU affairs, I believe it is incumbent on the EU and on the Government to interest the editor and the Irish people in European affairs. It is not the editor's responsibility to create that interest unless there are sufficient newsworthy stories there. Many editors will provide space to people to present their view, and there are many ways of doing that. The way the news is created or made and packaged is the responsibility of those who want to make the news and want their points to be communicated.

I apologise for being periodically absent from the meeting for various reasons. My question is related to the last point Mr. Cullen made about the extent to which he believes the political establishment is not generating good quality information about the treaties when there are referenda. The "No" side certainly had very clear claims or points to make about the treaty on this occasion. Does Mr. Cullen believe that people on the "Yes" side did not make a sufficiently clear and well informed case about why people should support the treaty, and that there was a certain amount of passion lacking from the "Yes" side? There might be a danger that the media are being blamed for not disseminating a positive message about the treaty to the public whereas, in fact, the people who communicate the message — the politicians and the media — are only the conduits for the information. They might manage to communicate some of the passion as well. What is the media's view on that?

Ms Ann Cahill

There is no doubt that the Government failed to establish credibility, so one does not have a fount one can go back to for facts. Nobody questioned any of the inaccuracies on either side. This refers in a way to Professor Farrel Corcoran's point. An editor is a member of the public too and there is such a thing as news values, which do not necessarily tie in with one side or the other. They have developed over the years and are not, perhaps, what they were years ago. Also, there are so many misconceptions at present about the EU and the issues surrounding it. It surely must be part of somebody's job to correct these and respond to them, but that never seems to be done. One sees all the letters that are sent to the newspapers. Personally I would not publish any of them because most of them are highly organised and orchestrated. They are like something that is produced by computers at times. However, there is rarely any attempt made to respond to the inaccuracies. Coming from so far behind on both the issues of "Yes" and "No" one has to invest huge resources into that by whatever means.

Mr. Frank Cullen

Newspapers operate in a commercial world. Individual newspapers appeal to a certain section of the population so they have their own set readership, and the editors must serve that readership. Every day the editor is bombarded with hundreds, if not thousands, of messages from people who wish to communicate through him or her. He or she must be selective, rightly or wrongly. I am not saying he or she is always right. One must operate in that environment so one must cut through all of that competition. The Lisbon treaty was complex; everybody says it was complex. Ultimately, it was simply amending legislation rolling the project forward but it was big and difficult to read. Even our Commissioner said he had not read it. It begged to be distilled down. The "No" campaign seemed to do it better. Whether that campaign was right or wrong I do not know but it seemed to do this better. To me, it was crying out for somebody to take one issue per week, or whatever period it should be, and flush it out by putting all the facts forward. Members of the public are intelligent; they can decide. They regularly show us that they are intelligent and make the right decisions.

On behalf of the committee I thank Mr. Cullen and Ms Cahill for their contribution this afternoon to our deliberations. We are in the final week of our public hearings and everything you have said is in our records and will be used to help frame the report we hope to complete for next week. I thank Mr. Cullen and Ms Cahill for attending.

Sitting suspended at 3.45 p.m. and resumed at 3.50 p.m.
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