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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Sep 2009

Lisbon Treaty: Discussion with Bishop of Down and Connor.

I remind members and visitors to switch off their mobile phones because they interfere with the broadcasting system. Before we begin, I draw the witness's attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We have an important agenda for today's meeting. The first item thereon is a discussion on the Lisbon treaty with our very special guest, the Most Reverend Dr. Noel Treanor, Irish delegate to the Commission of Bishops Conferences in the European Community, COMECE. Bishop Treanor is accompanied by Mr. Martin Long, director of the Catholic Communications Office, and Fr. Timothy Bartlett. They are all welcome. We hope to have an interesting discussion which will assist in enlightening the general public and members with regard to the issues the country faces in the context of the Lisbon treaty.

We welcome Bishop Treanor's attendance at the meeting because we are aware that he made many sacrifices to be present. He is attending this meeting despite the difficulties that arose for him in respect of his schedule. We hope his experience and that of his colleagues at this meeting will be as pleasant as possible. Members should note the fact that Bishop Treanor is attending as Irish delegate to the Commission of Bishops Conferences in the European Community, which is quite a substantial role.

As is normally the case with guest speakers, Bishop Treanor will speak for ten or 15 minutes and there will then be a question and answer session. We can bank questions from members in groups of four or five or the bishop may wish to make a single response to all questions posed.

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

I thank the members of the Joint Committee on European Affairs for inviting me to discuss the Lisbon treaty. I do so with respect for their particular role and competence as political representatives. The standing committee of the Irish Bishops Conference will make a statement on the issue of the Lisbon treaty in due course. I have accepted the joint committee's invitation in my capacity as the representative of the Irish Bishops Conference to the Commission of the Bishops Conferences of the European Community, COMECE. I served in Brussels as a staff member of the organisation for almost 20 years and for 17 years as its general secretary. Since June of last year, I have been bishop of the Diocese of Down and Connor.

I join the joint committee today with the support of His Eminence, Cardinal Seán Brady. I convey his good wishes to members and his appreciation for their respectful dialogue with him on this issue in November last year. On that occasion, Cardinal Brady highlighted the critical role played by Irish Christianity in establishing the founding ideals of a united Europe and he spoke of believing "passionately in the European Union". Confidence in ourselves, as a people and as a nation, and confidence in our capacity to mould and shape Europe with our fellow member states, rather than fear or suspicion, should mark our fundamental attitude to Europe. Cardinal Brady also made it clear on that occasion that a committed Catholic or Christian, even before the current legal guarantees had been secured, could vote in favour of the Lisbon treaty.

I begin by echoing that conviction. I state unequivocally that a Catholic can, without reserve and in good conscience, vote "Yes" for the Lisbon treaty. There are no grounds to justify a "No" vote on the Lisbon treaty on the basis of specifically religious or ethical concerns. As to other grounds on which citizens may choose to vote, such as economic or political considerations, this is a matter of prudential political judgment for each individual based on an informed and accurate assessment of all of the issues involved.

Accuracy is essential in this regard. The moral claim on all involved in this debate encompasses the duty to provide accurate information and to avoid provoking, or indeed exploiting, unfounded fears through misinformation. In the debate, the question of values applies not just to the content of the treaty but also to the way in which the debate itself is conducted and the accuracy with which the EU institutions and the institutional method are presented. Here it is worth recalling the statement made by the Irish Bishops' Conference prior to the first referendum on the Lisbon treaty in May 2008. In that text the bishops cautioned against "those who would seek to influence the outcome of the referendum either by offering misleading or even patently incorrect advice or by introducing extraneous factors into the debate". That still holds and is still most pertinent as an assertion. Unfortunately, there is evidence that there are a number of publications and organisations which are intent once again on influencing the outcome of the forthcoming referendum by introducing misleading or inaccurate information. This includes suggesting, for example, that the Lisbon treaty would undermine existing legal protections in Ireland for unborn children or, indeed, that on the basis of the treaty, euthanasia might be introduced. It is important to point out that no organisation actively lobbying in the current campaign, using either print or other media, speaks for or on behalf of the Catholic Church.

The Lisbon treaty does not alter the legal position of abortion in Ireland. This is further assured by the legal guarantees, which will become protocols in due course, secured, we hope, by the Irish Government in the period since the first referendum. These legal guarantees represent a welcome and significant clarification of existing safeguards in the relationship between the competence of the European Union and its institutions on the one side and national sovereignty on important ethical issues on the other.

In weighing up the Lisbon treaty, citizens will wish to take account of the opportunities as well as the challenges which go with participating in a free democratic political system at both national and EU level. Two vitally important considerations arise in this regard.

The first is the concern about a creeping impact of EU institutions on important ethical issues falling within national competence. While I am satisfied that the Lisbon treaty does not give grounds for such concern, admittedly it is impossible to predict every future direction of legislation, jurisprudence and policy in a democratic system. Here the competent and robust exercise of their representative functions by our elected Ministers, acting in the Council, and by our Members of the European Parliament will be determinative in co-shaping, with our fellow Europeans, the ethical and societal fabric of tomorrow's European Union. There can be no doubt about this. We are part of a process where discussion, dialogue and negotiation among equals, irrespective of size of member state, prevails and is a constituent essential element of the EU achievement and its treaties. Moreover, those who do this work on our behalf will be elected by us, the citizens of this country, as has been the case since Ireland freely chose to become a member of the European Communities.

The second consideration is that the debates about moral values and public policy are as much part of the national cultural and political environment as they are at the EU level. There should be no obfuscation about this. Many of the concerns which have been expressed about the Lisbon treaty and ethical issues arising from it are already a matter of democratic debate at national level. Fear and uncertainty in the face of some of the issues proper to the national level are being projected on to the EU and the treaty. We cannot escape, as a nation, all of the issues being discussed, many of which are being discussed in the context of the debate on the referendum. In the same way it would be unrealistic and inappropriate, precisely because of the principle of subsidiarity, to expect the EU to protect against the outcome of democratic debates about ethics and culture at a national level.

Whether it is the influence of secular ideology, cultural forces which undermine a consistent ethic of life, or concerns about the status of marriage and the family, the ideal of participation in public debate invites Christians to engage fully with the representative and democratic institutions available to them at both national and EU level. As Pope Benedict XVI has said, Christians need to "be actively present in the public debate on a European level, knowing that this discussion is now an integral part of the national debate". We need to promote the dialogue of reason and faith in the life of the EU and its institutions and in discussion about public policy. Citizens of religious faith need to secure and use the opportunities provided to churches and faith-based organisations in Article 17 of the Lisbon treaty on the functioning of the European Union to secure their rightful place in the dialogue about Europe and its values. This article provides an invaluable and unprecedented opportunity for churches and faith communities by recognising for the first time in the primary law of the EU the existing status of churches at a national level, their "identity and specific contribution" to society and by committing the European Union to "maintain an open, transparent and regular dialogue" with them.

A rejection of the Lisbon treaty might jeopardise this important achievement for faith and society and might therefore weaken rather than strengthen the influence of our Christian heritage and values on the future direction of the European Union and its prospect as a community of values.

As they cast their vote on the referendum each citizen will remember that the European Union is a project and a process. It is a process which is still young and in some respects fragile. The Lisbon treaty marks an important point in its evolution but it is not the final word on the potential direction and identity of the EU project. The Union will develop further in years to come. Our political representatives, elected by us, will continue to have the responsibility to shape and develop it further. They will do so within the EU institutional framework on the basis of the democratic and transparent procedures agreed by the member states. The opportunity to co-determine with our fellow Europeans the shape and quality of the future of Europe is enhanced, not diminished by the Lisbon treaty.

Ireland's role in shaping this historic project as a key member state should not be put at risk by a vote based on frustrations or even anger with domestic political parties. Similarly, concerns about our economic or other difficulties at a domestic level should not fuel a "No" vote. It is my belief that the European Union is a necessary and vital support to Ireland and its economy in addressing these issues.

The Catholic church has consistently supported the general aims and direction of the European Union. It has engaged constructively and transparently with its institutions, as I am aware from personal experience of some 20 years. In the words of Pope Benedict XVI:

If, after the fall of the Iron Curtain in 1989, certain excessive hopes were disappointed, and on some points justified criticisms can be raised about certain European Institutions, the process of unification remains a most significant achievement which has brought about a period of unwonted peace to this continent, formerly consumed by constant conflicts and fatal fratricidal wars. For the countries of central and eastern Europe in particular, participating in this process is a further incentive to the consolidation of freedom, the constitutional state and democracy within their borders.

This applies to all of us.

In a participative democracy, such as we enjoy in Ireland, the primary responsibility for clarifying and promoting the Lisbon treaty rests primarily with politicians. The church recognises, respects and does not usurp this responsibility. The church rather reminds all Christians of their duty to vote on matters of such importance on the basis of accurate information, an informed conscience and with due regard for the pursuit of solidarity within the European Union and beyond its borders and with due regard for the pursuit of the global common good through the policies of the Union.

I will conclude with the following words from Pope Benedict XVI in reiterating my respect for your responsible and important task as members of our national Legislature.

I am sure that God will bless the generous efforts of all who, in a spirit of service, work to build a common European home where every cultural, social and political contribution is directed towards the common good. To you, already involved in different ways in this important human and evangelical undertaking, I express my support and my most fervent encouragement.

I thank committee members for their attention.

I thank Dr. Treanor for his precise and clear presentation. Many of those here have indicated their anxiety to participate. I remind members that Dr. Treanor must leave before 1 p.m. We must recognise that he came here at considerable inconvenience to himself. I ask members to keep this in mind when making their submissions. I will allow those members who wish to speak to make their comments and then we will have one response, rather than go back and forth. Dr. Treanor will therefore have time to note the submissions of the various members.

I welcome the delegation led by Dr. Treanor, Fr. Bartlett and Martin Long. I thank Dr. Treanor for his direct and clear statement which reiterates some of the comments made by Cardinal Brady in the past. My first question was going to be to ask whether a Catholic could in conscience vote "Yes" to this treaty. I thank Dr. Treanor for clarifying that so concisely in advance.

My biggest concern is the efforts made by some to offer misleading advice to what I consider vulnerable people. I am speaking about efforts being made by groups with, perhaps, a loose association with the Catholic church or who want to indicate they have an association with it. Some offer this information through a publication known as Alive!. I have no problem with any editorial grouping offering a “Yes” or “No” proposition within the debate, but I find it objectionable as a Catholic when any group goes beyond that by offering extraneous arguments or putting forward misleading and untruthful statements on the treaty.

Others also seek to influence the debate. I have a pamphlet which is circulated widely within churches by what is referred to as the Fatima rosary group. It has a mobile telephone number on it but no contact address. The pamphlet has a picture of the Blessed Virgin and a child on the front, but it makes what I consider very misleading statements within it. It suggests that a "Yes" vote will end Ireland's status as an independent sovereign state and that it will remove our right to make our own laws. It suggests the EU constitution will be superior to our Constitution and goes even further in suggesting our protocols and guarantees will be ineffective. The pamphlet also mentions euthanasia and says that if we vote for the second Lisbon treaty referendum, we will become part of an army led by former colonial powers. It points out that in January 2009 the European Union gave parliamentary approval guaranteeing access to sexual and reproductive health rights and indicates this is a euphemism to include abortion.

Does Dr. Treanor as a leader in the Catholic Church find this distasteful? Does he find it objectionable that people within the faith seek to use their association with it as a means to win a campaign in a manner which is at variance with the truth and targets vulnerable people who may believe this is a central message from the Catholic Church due to the documentation used or the way in which it is circulated? Is it right for the Catholic Church to continue to allow Alive! to be circulated in Catholic churches throughout the country when it would not be appropriate for any political party to advance its case by distributing information within the church? While a political party might distribute information outside church gates, it would not do so within the confines of the church. That would be going too far.

When making his response, will Dr. Treanor indicate whether the statements he has made and the responses he will make are made with the knowledge and support of Cardinal Brady?

I welcome the delegation, in particular Most. Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor. I thank him for his clear exposition of his position and that of the bishops' conference. I especially welcome the bishop's unequivocal statement as it clarifies any ambiguity that could have existed as to whether a Catholic can in good conscience and faith advocate a "Yes" vote or vote in favour of the Lisbon treaty on 2 October.

The Lisbon treaty advances the exposition of a religious ethos and the freedom for a religious ethos throughout the European Union. As the bishop pointed out, this will be on an official treaty basis for the first time. In other words, it will manifest itself in primary law at a European level. This is very important. If we consider the European project as it has advanced and developed over the decades since its foundation, the European Union essentially has been based on and put forward Christian values to which we and others throughout the Union can subscribe, for example, the values mentioned in the preamble but also those contained within the treaty. Among those mentioned are the dignity of the human being, respect for human life, respect for human rights and democracy, etc. These are values we should stand up for and of which we should be proud.

It is important to refer to the Charter of Fundamental Rights which specifically refers to the right to life, an important aspect of this treaty which has been ignored deliberately in certain quarters. As Dr. Treanor so eloquently pointed out, the formal dialogue which is established with religious institutions — on which our former party leader and former Taoiseach, John Bruton, in particular has placed much emphasis in recent years — is something we can be very proud of. The specific reference to the Christian heritage of the European Union is something we can all be comfortable with and proud of. It has been advanced by certain people that the absence of a specific reference to God in the treaty is in some way deficient or abnormal. I would contend that no treaty has ever had a specific reference to God and as we are aware, this is not a constitution but rather an amending treaty. I would like to hear Dr. Treanor's views on that particular point because it is something that is being used as a stick to beat the Lisbon treaty and in my view is somewhat misleading.

I welcome in particular Dr. Treanor's quoting of Pope Benedict because he has been very clear in his support for the ideals and the values of the European Union and of the European project and indeed, the Lisbon treaty. This is something that has been misrepresented by certain groups and the Pope has been misquoted in some instances.

Dr. Treanor stated in his concluding remarks that it is up to politicians to explain the treaty, to campaign in favour of it and to explain it to the people of Ireland and I agree with him. However, when values-based and faith-based arguments are used against this treaty by certain people who represent themselves as speaking for certain quarters of the Catholic Church and who articulate a view which is portrayed as almost representative of the official view of the Catholic Church, it behoves people such as Dr. Treanor who are in positions of seniority in the church establishment, to counteract these arguments and to clarify the facts of the situation and to put forward the factual arguments as they stand. I do not believe that politicians can do this and neither do I believe that politicians have the moral authority in terms of taking a leadership position within the Catholic Church and it would be a difficult task for us.

Does Dr. Treanor believe that this kind of counteracting of some of the misleading viewpoints by means of Alive! and other publications could be possible by means of a formal statement, or a press conference? Should official literature be distributed and disseminated in churches around the country as a means of putting forward the legitimate and truthful arguments which support the Lisbon treaty and the legitimacy of the European project? It is essential that the Catholic Church establishment in this country stands up to be counted and to show leadership, as Dr. Treanor has shown here today. It would be necessary to do so in a pragmatic and practical manner across the country because otherwise I fear that those representing inaccurate and untruthful positions will win the moral debate and this would be most unfortunate.

I thank the Chairman for going to great efforts to arrange this meeting and I also thank Bishop Treanor because he changed his plans when many of us were unable to attend yesterday. We are very appreciative of this and of his presence. We know Martin Long for a long time and from another life — a very good life, shall we say——

He might lose his job.

He was in the insurance federation.

No, it was before that but I will not bring blushes to his lovely cheeks. I also welcome Fr. Bartlett and I thank the three gentlemen for coming to the meeting.

This has been a very positive start to what I hope will be a positive outcome. I particularly wish to emphasise what Dr. Treanor said in his very first sentence when he stated that a Catholic can vote "Yes" for the Lisbon treaty in good conscience. If this message could be disseminated it would be wonderful. However, as Deputy Creighton said, it is for us to make the arguments which win people but it is very difficult to make a moral argument which appears to have the backing of a branch of the Roman Catholic Church without impugning what is being argued. Dr. Treanor is representing Cardinal Brady and the other bishops and priests and parishes up and down the land and I am sure in his response he will probably argue along the lines that the church as we know it does not have any disciplinary control by which it can upbraid what is published in publications which are not under the remit of the church. However, in the case of publications which are disseminated through the church to which most of us repair each Sunday or for funerals, mass, christenings or whatever, I would have thought the Catholic Church as we know it, as represented here by Dr. Treanor, would be able to instruct the local man in charge of a church that it does not agree with such and such a document.

I refer to Dr. Treanor's very clear, positive thinking, which he has articulated with admirable clarity and which has been wonderfully put together and enunciated — I used to teach English at senior level. However, I was in a very small rural town, Kilbeggan, last Sunday, and I picked up a freely available magazine called Alive!. I know other Deputies have referred to this magazine. Dr. Treanor will say he has no say over the particular order or priest who publishes this magazine. I would normally be in favour of different opinions being expressed but not of opinions which are lies. When we go on local or national radio or give interviews, these are the points that are put to us. I believe there is a psychology in so doing because the people who produce this information want the debate to become mired in defence of lies or in making the attack against the lies and therefore there is no room for positivity. Dr. Treanor’s submission is very positive. We find it very difficult to remain positive when one must constantly argue the negative.

I refer to a page in the September 2009 edition under the title of Éire go Bragh Campaign. It asks such questions as, "Are you or any of your family an alcoholic? Do you suffer from depression, from an unsound mind, from Alzheimer's, autism, drug addiction or vagrancy?" It states that many families know somebody with one of those disabilities and it is a cause for sadness that a new directive under the Lisbon treaty states that a person can be taken up, that the EU can seize a person's home, family and children and that one must lock up one's children because if Lisbon is passed, they will come to get them.

I know Dr. Treanor's answer will be an example of clarity and he will say he has no responsibility. We all know the priests in our constituencies. Dr. Treanor will say he has no control over such publications. Surely Cardinal Brady, Dr. Treanor or whoever is in a position to do so could say to the clergy within the remit of the Catholic Church in Ireland that he does not believe the absolutely heinous, totally untrue and libellous articles in the newspaper which can be picked up freely. A woman told me yesterday she lit a candle every day in the church to which I referred. She believes everything she picks up in the church is true. We may all say we are far more sophisticated than that but we are not and many believe what is presented to them in the church because that is the way they were brought up. They believe what happens in the church is God sent and that they must, therefore, believe it. A member of their family, Tom or Pat, may be an alcoholic but instead of trying to cure him, they wave this newspaper at him and say he will be detained by the European Union if he votes "Yes". The article is disgusting, libellous, heinous and very disturbing for those who want to live their lives in a correct way. I do not want to make an exhibition of the bishop or myself by marching over and giving him a copy of Alive! but I want to hand it to him before he leaves.

There are 11 speakers remaining and Dr. Treanor will have to be given an opportunity to reply. I will call the members in the customary order.

I will be more brief than the previous speakers. I very much welcome Dr. Treanor, Fr. Bartlett and Mr. Long. We appreciate the fact that they have given of their time to attend to make an unequivocal statement. That is extremely important from our point of view, as are the questions we must ask. I do not see anything clearer in this campaign than what is stated on the first page of the delegates' submission:

I begin by echoing that conviction. [This refers to previous statements.] I state unequivocally that a Catholic can, without reserve and in good conscience, vote "Yes" for the Lisbon treaty. There are no grounds to justify a "No" vote in the Lisbon treaty on the basis of specifically religious or ethical concerns.

I will not go over the same ground as three previous speakers on misleading material, as referred to in the delegates' statement; suffice it to say misleading material is being circulated in churches and elsewhere, very much in the name of and under the mantle of the church. The Pope himself is misquoted in some statements. If such abuse of the Catholic Church is perpetrated by some of the people on the "No" side, I suggest, in the light of the categorical statement the delegates have made, that the church produce a leaflet to be made available to churchgoers to be picked up at the bottom of the church, at the font or at the location of much of the literature we see so often in our churches that contains so many misleading statements, which statements have been well described today. The church's leaflet should state its position as clearly as it has been in its submission to the committee. This would be very welcome and provide a sense of balance for churchgoers who are confused by the messages they receive.

Consider what was said about the creeping impact, or alleged creeping impact, of EU institutions on important ethical issues that are, in reality, matters for member states' competence. Does Dr. Treanor agree that the additional powers given to national parliaments will serve as an important counterbalance against the described approach in that national parliaments are to be given a specific role in terms of subsidiarity to ensure there is clarity regarding which decisions are pertinent to the European Union and which are pertinent to member states? Does he agree that national parliaments will, under the ratified treaty, be guarantors in this respect?

Let me refer to what Dr. Treanor said about Article 17 and the new basis in primary law of the European Union for dialogue between the churches and the Charter of Fundamental Rights, which in Article 10 underlines the right to freedom of conscience and religious beliefs. It is a great opportunity for the churches to get involved and be fully engaged with the Union in considering and debating all these issues, engaging in dialogue and planning the way forward. Many positive points have been lost in the debate to date in many ways and these are issues that should be highlighted. It would be very valuable if the church did so by way making literature available to parishioners.

I welcome Dr. Treanor, Fr. Bartlett and Mr. Martin Long. I thank the Chairman for rearranging the meeting for today because we were very anxious to be present for Dr. Treanor's contribution. It is a very well presented document and is very fair and honest. While we are entitled to vote how we like, we must note that the submission states clearly: "I state unequivocally that a Catholic can, without reserve and in good conscience, vote "Yes" for the Lisbon treaty." One can vote "No" if one wants to.

On the question of abortion, the submission states: "The Lisbon treaty does not alter the legal position of abortion in Ireland." There is nothing as clear as this.

Although the committee will receive excellent coverage on "Oireachtas Report" this evening and in the media tomorrow——

——I hope statements will be circulated.

Concern was expressed by members, including Deputy O'Rourke, about the paid-for advertisement by Éire go Brách in Alive! The editor of a paper must be responsible for its advertisements. It is a legal fact that editorial responsibility attaches to any advertisement in a publication. I appeal to Fr. Brian McKevitt to refrain from publishing lies in the newspaper. The statements are so untrue that I cannot, in conscience, understand how the hierarchy can allow it to be circulated in the church. How can a church of the truth — that is, the Bible — allow untruths to be circulated freely within it? I cannot understand why any priest would not dump these documents from the church on receiving them. A priest cannot stop them being circulated door to door. Some 350,000 copies of the freesheet Alive! are circulated monthly. I do not know which order Fr. McKevitt is a member of – I believe it is the Dominicans – but surely that order, with its fine tradition in Ireland, should have some responsibility regarding the issues on which we must decide on 2 October. The referendum will affect the future of the European Union. Twenty six countries have agreed to the Lisbon treaty and Ireland is the one holding up the process. By voting “Yes” on 2 October we will have the treaty ratified.

We are not prisoners of the European Union. In the treaty it is stipulated that we can opt out at any time we want, if we so wish. We could decide on this in the future but doing so would be crazy, particularly given our current difficulties and the European Union's support for us in these difficulties.

Let us be clear that we are a member of the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. We signed up to the principles——

Forty years ago.

There are 47 countries represented and we have a judge representing Ireland, Ms Ann Power. Nothing on 2 October will change our status within the Council of Europe and the European Court of Human Rights and as a signatory to the principles thereof.

Dr. Treanor has stated the bishops' conference, to be held shortly in Maynooth, will consider this matter, after which a further statement will be made on the Lisbon reform treaty. Regardless of the outcome, I suggest it be circulated widely. The structure is such that each bishop decides in his own diocese whether to issue a pastoral letter on the issue. A document should be circulated based on this document. I challenge Fr. Brian McKevitt to publish this document in the next edition of Alive! which will be issued before 2 October. If he is prepared to take lies and untruths from Éire go Brách, I challenge him to take the truth from an eminent bishop.

Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I am availing of parliamentary privilege.

I read that at the beginning of the meeting and do not want to have to read it again.

The truth is on the Senator's side.

I remind members that there are time constraints and that we must appear in the House on another issue soon.

I welcome Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor and thank him for his clear and convincing analysis of the implications of the Lisbon treaty for Catholics. I am personally disappointed that more moderate voices in the Catholic church have not been more vocal, although Dr. Treanor's points are welcome.

Claims have been made about the Lisbon treaty by those who see themselves as active members of the church that are downright misleading and that prey on the fears of vulnerable people. There has been a lack of leadership on the part of those who expressed concerns in the first instance about the implications of the treaty on issues such as abortion and the family. Given the strong legal guarantees secured by the Government, there is still silence on the part of those who spoke up the first time. They have not yet spoken out to reassure the members of their communities. I welcome the leadership shown by Most Rev. Dr. Treanor this morning because such leadership has been lacking and is needed because there are those who will look to the church for leadership at a time like this for guidance on whether the outrageous claims being made in newspapers being circulated by the church are true. I hope others who expressed concerns initially will now accept the guarantees achieved by the Government address these fears.

Does Dr. Treanor believe the commitment in the Lisbon treaty to the institutionalising of an open, transparent and regular dialogue with churches and organisations within the European Union is good? Most of us are aware that Islamic fundamentalism and increasing concerns about the potential clash between that religion and the Catholic and other Christian churches may cause difficulty in the future. Is the fact that the treaty puts in place formal structures to facilitate dialogue between churches welcome? Should this be emphasised more?

I welcome Bishop Treanor; it is great to have an expert with us. Few people have as much knowledge of the European Union as the bishop. He has a great love of the Union, while not being blind to the challenges a country such as Ireland might face. He recognises the need to avail of the many opportunities our membership of the Union presents.

On occasion I share the concern about headlines on political matters and misleading advertisements in Alive! but I appeal to the bishop to resist temptation to appoint go-lighters to go round the Catholic churches in the country to throw newspapers out. Some of my colleagues obsess about this. Those who would give out most if the church was to ask a dissenting theologian to desist from teaching dodgy theology in a seminary now appear to want the church to police the newspapers available in church porches. The newspaper The Irish Catholic took a pro-Lisbon treaty position at the last referendum, as it was entitled to do. It would be better if periodicals gave people the facts in order that they could then make a judgment.

The truth is important.

Absolutely. Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan said a man was entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts.

The bishop has rightly said the guarantees on social and ethical issues represent a welcome and significant clarification of existing safeguards. Would he not go further, given that there is a political reality in decision making, and say the existence of the guarantees might be helpful when courts come to make certain decisions as they interpret the Lisbon treaty? The existence of the guarantees strengthens the possibility that there will be respect for Ireland's constitutional traditions on education and the family. It is good that for the first time we have a clear acknowledgement this goes beyond the abortion issue which, to a great extent, was put to bed by the Maastricht protocol on issues that are peculiar to Ireland because we do not form part of the majority consensus on a number of social and ethical issues at EU level.

As good as these guarantees are, however, and they are a reason to vote "Yes" to the Lisbon treaty — many believe their concerns have been assuaged by them — does the bishop agree that there is an existing corpus of EU treaties that may be interpreted in ways that might be of concern to many? I was not impressed by a briefing we received on the Maruko case which offers an indication of how the European Court of Justice can enter areas within the competence of member states.

The legal guarantees confront that issue.

No, because they only address the Lisbon treaty.

They do.

I am asking the bishop a question.

The legal guarantees are entered into and a commitment has been given by all the member states.

I am satisfied with that as far as the Lisbon treaty is concerned, but I am asking a different question. Does the bishop think it would be useful if the Government acknowledged that the existing corpus of EU law prior to the Lisbon treaty could present challenges in the areas of the family and marriage, equality and non-discrimination? It would be positive if the Government sought to resolve this issue once and for all in future negotiations in order that the legitimate concerns about existing treaties could be addressed to allow people to focus on the great project the European Union represents.

I congratulate Dr. Treanor on his appointment to the see of Down and Connor. Cóir, an organisation which claims it is a quasi Catholic church group, distributed up to six leaflets outside churches in my area containing outrageous untruths. Last weekend its members were able to get into the churches in question and leave individual leaflets on the pews. I do not understand how that could have happened. I have one final simple question. Cóir has launched a new poster this morning stating the EU wishes to control people's lives and urging them to vote "No". Dr. Treanor has a long history of outstanding service to his church, his country and to the Union in Brussels. Did he find that the European Union wished to control his life or those of the people he represented while he worked there in a professional capacity?

I welcome Bishop Treanor and will be brief. He stuck closely to his prepared script except for one sentence in which he made a change. When referring to the legal position of abortion in Ireland, the script stated "This is further assured by the legal guarantees, which will become protocols, secured by the Irish Government", into which Dr. Treanor inserted the words "we hope".

He means if the vote is "Yes".

Perhaps. Does this imply a doubt in Bishop Treanor's mind as to the certainty of those protocols?

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

If I may, I will respond to that question immediately. Absolutely not. However, I am a realist and my inclusion of that phrase was simply to make the point that the evolution of these legal guarantees into a protocol, following the processes that are evident to all members and which I will not repeat, is dependent upon ratification.

Absolutely.

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

However, I thank Senator Quinn for giving me the opportunity to clarify this.

We will move on.

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

As I must be in the far north of the country this evening and the time available is not terribly long, I ask for questions that have not been repeated or that have not been articulated.

Dr. Treanor has been very patient and I agree. I will take questions that have not already been raised.

As the church does not involve itself in when individuals or media become involved in lobbying or campaigning, I ask that when such groups give the impression they are speaking for the Catholic Church, as some would easily and quickly do, the church should keep a constant vigil to ensure that none of these groups gives a strong impression that they are speaking for the Catholic Church. I also warmly welcome Dr. Treanor.

Would the bishop consider making his statement available at churches next weekend or the following weekend?

It will be done.

The bishop noted that a statement would be made on the Lisbon treaty by the Irish Catholic Bishops Conference. I ask that it be made sooner rather than later. Will it reflect the bishop's comments at this meeting?

Dr. Treanor now has comprehensive knowledge of members' opinions, as well as their personal experiences nationwide, which is important. He has been most forthright in the manner in which he has addressed the joint committee and I thank him for being so. I apologise for delaying him but we did the best we could.

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

I will try to do justice to the burden of all the questions. Perhaps I will begin with the second last question on whether my experience of the European Union has been in any way limiting or controlling of my freedom.

I asked whether it sought to control Dr. Treanor or the people he represented.

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

Not at all. All states that decide to join the European Union choose freely to do so. As those present know, both as political representatives and as citizens, this is a community and a union of free sovereign member states which decide, according to agreed processes and rules, to pool partly in agreed areas their sovereignty for the common good. It is evident and is written right across the texts that the European Union is anything but some kind of budding dictatorship. It is a community of free member states. One of the nova or new elements in this treaty is a facility for a member state eventually to withdraw.

To opt out. That is correct.

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

Consequently, this is a pertinent point in respect of Deputy Treacy's question.

The second subject to which I will turn in this august chamber relates to the comment I made towards the end of my statement, in which I discussed responsibility for promoting the debate and information resting — and I underline this point — primarily with politicians. I said "primarily" and not "exclusively". I accept the point that while politicians must give a lead in this debate and must inject correction where necessary, this debate is wider than simply the participation of politicians. All members of civil society and all citizens have a duty and obligation to elucidate the debate, to enlighten ourselves and our fellow citizens in order to make an informed decision for the good of our citizens, the country and our future. While this is a shared responsibility to that extent, I repeat the word I used, which was "primarily". I agree that when obfuscation arises, all of us must endeavour to clarify and I will return to this subject when I try to address the issue of publications to which members have alluded.

A number of questions referred to Article 17 which is included in the treaty on the functioning of the European Union and again, as I noted, this is a new reality. I wish to point out that the decision by the convention to include this article marked a significant constitutional development in the self-understanding of the European Union. All members are aware that prior to the work of that convention, there was no explicit verbal reference in the primary law of the European Union to churches or to religion. However, in time this had become a notable legal and constitutional void because inevitably and inescapably, over the almost 50 years of the community's existence, it was involved in developing secondary law that directly took into consideration and was obliged to take account of, the religious datum element of life. Senator de Búrca asked me whether this was a positive development. In the text I supplied to members I stated that it is a positive development for both churches and society. I argue that evidence of this is to be found in the issues which have arisen, for example, from the recent economic and financial crises. Religions or churches are not the only source of addressing such issues but the spiritual, moral and ethical dimensions of human consciousness and experience also are integral and necessary sources, with other philosophical, social and ethical traditions, to developing a system of regulation and governance at national, supranational and international level. Consequently, this integrated approach to public policymaking involving churches, while respecting the separation between the sacred and secular and between church and state, is a positive development that is evident in the text of the Lisbon treaty.

The question was posed in terms of a specific reference to Islam. The first point to make is that the implementation of this article and particularly its third paragraph will require discussion on the part of both the European Union and its institutions and the parties concerned, namely, churches and religions. Arising from a long tradition, the Presidents of the Commission, Council and Parliament already informally meet once a year with religious representatives and leaders to discuss issues which generally are on the agenda of the European Union. On the basis of practice, this has been developed by President Barroso and in time the Council became involved, followed by the Parliament. A meeting takes place in or around May of each year and the theme for this conversation or discussion is chosen by common consent and consultation.

Representatives of all religious traditions recognised within the member states are invited to those discussions. The Senator mentioned issues attendant upon fundamentalism of any kind and I believe she connected that precisely with Islam. The most potent and effective way of addressing any form of the expression of fundamentalism is dialogue. As for how effective such dialogue has been or what is its promise, first one must state that the development itself is positive. Second, its implementation will of course involve its implementation at different levels. This connects with some of the questions raised by the committee regarding matters of sovereignty and creeping impact. This will occur at the apex level of the EU Presidency and high representatives. However, at the level of everyday draft and proposed legislation, offices of the churches and religions, through presences in Brussels or the interests of citizens in organisations in member state societies, may engage in consultations at any time and contact civil servants of the Commission, as committee members know, and Members of Parliament. The article is full of promise and is positive for all religious traditions within member states and for the EU and its member state societies as well.

Perhaps I will address Senator Mullen's question, the first part of which I took to relate to the interpretation of treaty provisions by national courts. The second part related to how the European Court of Justice decided in the Maruko case.

The first question was not only on whether there was a clarification in the guarantees but also on whether it would positively impact on the court's future decisions. The clarification made Ireland's constitutional traditions in education and the family explicit.

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

Right. The guarantees are a consolidation of what has been there and a positive promise and achievement in respect of the remit and competence of the European Court of Justice. They indicate a clarification.

As the Senator knows, the Maruko case, which was referred by Germany to the court, related to a pension right of a male member of a civil partnership. The ECJ's final decision in the case was marked by a certain tension. It asserted that the decision should be taken by the national court competent to do so. The matter eventually went before an administrative court in Bavaria. However, the ECJ decided that a member state should be held by the non-discrimination provisions set out in the treaty article. This type of tension may be the source of the understandable concern among citizens.

Several points must be underlined. In the Maruko case, the ECJ sent a decision back to the national level while making it explicitly clear that national legislatures lacking provision for such partnerships would not be compelled. The ECJ did not exercise its right to force a member state to decide contrary to the provisions of national legislation. The point in the Senator's first question was that the guarantees, which will become protocols, are a consolidation of this situation.

I might disagree on that because legislation is precluded.

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

It is not.

The Senator had his intrusions.

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

I wish to continue on that point because legislation is not precluded. We have reached a simple and clear point, that is, the responsibility of matters in this regard lies primarily with our national legislatures and political organisations, which are directly elected by our citizens and with whom our citizens are in debate. This is a characteristic of the EU, for which reason I emphasised the matter of confidence in ourselves and our traditions. The provisions of national law exist for reasons of philosophy and because of a vision of life that we, as citizens, must present to our political representatives. In turn, they must represent our democratic processes within the context of the EU. We cannot predict what type of developments will occur in legislation or jurisprudence, but we can ensure our body politic and citizenship are active vis-à-vis our representatives.

I am aware of the publications to which many members referred. Alas, I do not share the privilege enjoyed by members in this room.

There should be no intrusion.

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

In Catholic churches and church buildings, no material should be disseminated without the permission of the parish priest.

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

He is in contact with his bishop. Recently, some of those who published some of the material to which members referred may have sought permission. In those cases, parish priests emphasised their responsible discretion, but let it be clear that no material may be disseminated without their permission.

Everyone, including church authorities, are confronted by the tension between freedom of speech and responsible information. For whatever reason, publications are playing on fears, disseminating absolute misinformation and erroneously suggesting that issues like euthanasia are somehow purveyed by the Lisbon treaty and its texts. Deputy O'Rourke suggested that I might be able to do something.

Yes, through the network of parish priests.

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

She also suggested that the Irish may believe everything they read within such publications.

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

None the less, our population has a healthy critical capacity and we must promote the idea of examining the content of such publications. For example, poets such as Philip Larkin discussed what is often said in the name of clergy. People know that a publication without an imprimatur is not an official text of the Catholic Church. Those with responsibility for publications, including within the religious orders mentioned, should recognise that the publication and dissemination of error is civically irresponsible.

A question on my statement was asked. I understand that it will be made available. Many members asked about the bishops' conference. I will be precise in that the conference's standing committee will meet next Monday. It is the committee's intention to publish a statement shortly thereafter. Far be it from me to predict whether all of my comments will be reflected therein. The text will address the issues and we look forward to its publication.

It could not be any better than the bishop's statement.

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

In terms of all the questions asked, I will conclude by underlining the fact that the EU is a project characterised by dynamics, disagreements and the possibility for the co-determination and co-shaping of Europe's future, including in the much debated areas of ethical and social ethical import. Legal guarantees that will become protocols have been achieved to assure all of us that we can have the confidence to go forward as representatives of our country, and civil servants of our country in the Commission, to ensure the Union is marked by being a community of values.

In reference to church publications, a number of the publications have been forthright in their espousal and explicitation of the European Union as a community of values. One of those, to which I draw the attention of the members, is the publication by the office for which I formerly worked, the Commission of the Bishops Conferences of the European Community, called "The Ethical Dimension of the European Union". In this document, we explicitated the separate areas in which the European Union pursues in concrete form the implementation of values within the policy range for which the European Union is responsible.

Will that be available in the churches?

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

It is a long document and it is available, as will be the statement of the bishops standing committee, on the website of the bishops' conference. In that sense it is readily available, although admittedly electronically. It is available to committee members.

Can the bishop comment on whether his statements are made with the knowledge and support of Cardinal Brady?

I asked that question.

Dr. Treanor referred to the church imprimatur but the difficulty I have is with the Blessed Virgin and Child being on the front of a publication that is structured in the same way as most prayer leaflets and matches the books that people bring to the church. Finding this on the seat of the church in the name of the Fatima rosary group, with all the negative points that Dr. Treanor has indicated are untrue, raises a great difficulty for people, despite what Dr. Treanor said about voting “Yes” in good conscience. This document is circulated within the confines of the church. I hope the conference of bishops can go further in working with bishops and priests on the grounds with regard to information that seeks to associate itself with a document of repute in the Catholic environment, using imagery to which we are accustomed in a way that seeks to promote a “No” vote. I hope the conference can be stronger in the action it takes to ensure there is a balanced debate. I do not suggest that we prevent the Alive! magazine or any other publication advocating a “No” vote but that it should be done on the basis of fact and not by trying to bring people closer to believing that this is a document of the Catholic Church.

I am very happy that this is all done electronically but the people to whom this shameful paper is addressed do not have access to electronic documents.

I refer to the use of this type of propaganda. I will not be critical of the church but I have a view on it.

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

I repeat what I said at the beginning, that I am speaking with the full knowledge and support of Cardinal Brady.

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

Regarding the materials to which members refer, I regret that they cross the threshold of churches and that erroneous assertions have been disseminated. I regret that many citizens with golden hearts are being misled for one reason or another. However, the responsibility to counter all of this is shared by all. The balance between freedom of speech and——

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

——how one implements these decisions is a fine line. We must respect freedom of speech but also call for accuracy of information. We all seek this.

I want to bring the meeting to a conclusion. The point raised is fundamental to the debate, namely, the theory that Irish people believe everything published by or distributed through churches. That is not necessarily the case but our research shows that powerful lobby groups outside this jurisdiction are well placed, well funded and highly organised throughout Europe. They believe that the documentation and misinformation distributed through the church is a good way of achieving their target. That is dangerous and sinister but that is the way it is. Committee members have met people who express views that were alarming. It is clear that they have a different view about what Europe is about and what it should be about. Their clear ambition is that the European Union would not progress or proceed and that it would disintegrate even though they claim otherwise.

Even in politics, it is virtually impossible to control some of the points raised by members throughout the country. Occasionally we take restrictive action but that does not always work. People outside this jurisdiction know that there is deep religious fervour in this country, in various churches, and they have clearly identified the distribution and dissemination of their message through the churches as the most fortuitous path to take. That is alarming.

I thank the bishop and his colleagues for attending. He has been most informative and has gone to great pains, as well as coming here at great inconvenience and disruption to his schedule. We appreciate that and hope that the views expressed will be taken on board by those who pick up on the webcast and those who want to quote, for other than negative reasons, all of the debate.

Most Rev. Dr. Noel Treanor

I want to pick up on one point referred to by Senator Cummins. The treaty enhances the democratic control of the national member state parliaments and the European Parliament.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.25 p.m. and adjourned at 1.40 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 17 September 2009.
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