JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 18 Jan 2006

Business of Joint Committee.

Chairman

We have received apologies from Senator White, for whom Senator Callanan is in attendance in substitution. Are the draft minutes of the meeting of 11 January 2006 agreed? Agreed.

There is not much correspondence. A schedule has been distributed to members. The first item is document No. 2006/0249, a letter to the clerk to the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny regarding proposals referred to in 2005. We discussed the matter at length at the previous meeting, arising from which we agreed to meet on 1 February to discuss the Council directive on the place and supply of services. We also suggested we would meet on 15 February to discuss the EU directive on passenger car related taxes. I suggest that on that day we also commence our discussion of the freedom of information report circulated as a result of the previous meeting. We will deal with Committee Stage of the Finance Bill on 21, 22 and 23 February and I propose we complete our consideration of the freedom of information report in March. That is the work programme until early March. We will discuss the supply of services document on 1 February, and passenger car related taxes and the freedom of information report on 15 February, on which day we will decide whether we need to hold full hearings on the report and, if so, how many. The programme has been circulated.

The next item is a letter from the chairman and chief executive of the Bank of Scotland regarding the opening of the bank's branches. We will note the correspondence.

The clerk received an e-mail from Mr. Kevin Leyden attaching the financial services report. That is a Commission press release which I suggest we note.

There is an e-mail and letter from the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs attaching an invitation to an interparliamentary meeting on 20 and 21 February on how to raise growth in the euro area. The committee decided at its last meeting not to attend. We propose to attend an OECD conference in Paris on 23 February which is the next item.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Is that a conference on ageing?

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I will tell the Chairman——

Chairman

We will discuss travel arrangements under the next item on the agenda.

The next time item of correspondence is an e-mail to the clerk from Mr. Kevin Leyden regarding a Commission recommendation on the UK budget which we will note. We have also received by e-mail a press release from Mr. Leyden regarding EU tax which we note. We have received an e-mail about the financial perspectives debate.

The next item is an e-mail from Professor Maeve McDonagh thanking us for information she sought from the committee. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has sent its strategy statement to every committee which we will ne note. The next item is the same Department's annual report which we will also note.

There is another e-mail from Mr. Kevin Leyden attaching the Austrian-Finnish Presidency programme at EU level which we note. There is a newsletter, also to be noted, which is available to any member who wishes to see it.

The next item is an e-mail to the clerk from Ms Irene Kirwan of the central decentralisation unit attaching a table showing the number of civil servants assigned to decentralised posts up to the end of December 2005. The table has been circulated and members are free to deal with the item individually as they see fit. We will return to it during the year. The next item is for information purposes only, being a list of correspondence issued by the committee.

The next item on the agenda is an invitation to travel or attend conferences. We discussed our proposed attendance at the OECD high level parliamentary seminar in Paris on 23 February on the policy implications of ageing populations. I propose that the joint committee, in the interests of informing itself in pursuance of its terms of reference, accepts the invitation received from the OECD to participate in a high level parliamentary seminar in Paris on 23 February on the policy implications of ageing populations. The estimated cost of attendance is €946 per member and €906 for an official. We agreed at our last meeting that we would attend. Perhaps the Chairman should choose members from the Government and Opposition sides.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I propose that the Whips meet and agree on the delegation.

Chairman

The conveners.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

It is appropriate that we attend this seminar which is for parliamentarians and addresses an issue of great public interest. I have no objection to our participation in the seminar.

Chairman

It falls within the week when the committee proposed to deal with Committee Stage of the Finance Bill. I must issue a warning to my Government colleagues to ensure that if members of the committee are away, they should send substitutes to this committee.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

We can ignore the last advice.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

We will sort out all those details.

Chairman

We will take the Chairman plus two members from each side whom the Whips or conveners can choose. The conveners should tell the clerk to the committee who they nominate.

The next item under the heading of travel is a proposal to attend the fifth Munich economic summit on 4 and 5 May. I propose that the joint committee, in the interests of informing itself in pursuance of its terms of reference, agrees to accept an invitation received to participate in the fifth Munich economic summit which will take place in Munich on 4 and 5 May 2006. The estimated cost of attendance is €962 per member and €922 for an official. We agreed at our last meeting to attend this conference.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I propose that the Whips choose the delegation for that meeting too.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

I expressed concerns about this event at our previous meeting and commended the Chairman on not sending a delegation from this committee to attend the event last year.

The hype we have received on the panel 2 discussions on Friday 5, May about Europe's answer to the global changes in the division of labour lauds the vast possibilities of a cheaper labour force. We in Ireland have recently experienced the real outcomes of this possibility and we must be mindful of the purpose, focus, intent and broad political disposition of those who organise and promote such events. We will not glean much useful information from this BMW-sponsored conference. I am concerned at the thrust of its interest and do not agree that we should be represented there.

Chairman

Deputy Ó Caoláin has indicated that he should not attend. For members who have not had an opportunity to read the conference material, the title of the summit is, Europe and the New Division of Labour. It will delve into the question of how the massive changes in the global division of labour characterised by outsourcing and placing offshore affect the global economy in general and the European economy in particular. It is very relevant to Ireland.

Deputy Burton

I apologise for arriving late to this meeting but I had to attend another meeting.

I attended this conference last year. While I agree with Deputy Ó Caoláin that economically the thrust of the conference is right of centre, at that stage the German Social Democratic Party was strongly represented in the city government in Munich. That party is close to the present policies of Deputy Ó Caoláin's party. There were many discussions involving new members of the European Union and trade union representatives about the changes in the movement of labour throughout Europe. The city government had a prominent position in the conference which provided a significant focus on countervailing rights.

There was also an opportunity to examine public capital investment in transport which I studied because Munich has an amazing transport system. Anybody who can should see it.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I support Deputy Burton. I am not a great traveller despite what others around the table might think, but I have learned something and derived new ideas from every conference I have attended and I have been to many conferences. The OECD conferences are quite good. They last one day from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. and there is something to be gained from being there. The same applies to this conference. I propose this matter be passed on to the Whips.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

I appreciate Deputy Burton's contribution, for which I thank her. Alarm bells are ringing due to the recent experiences of Irish Ferries and Gama Construction with which we had to contend. When I see the literature promoting the conference referring to the vast possibilities of a cheaper, eager, well-educated labour force, it unnerves me and I am not comfortable with it. I do not view it as having vast possibilities. I see it more in the context of destabilising and undermining long fought for and cherished rights for workers in Ireland and in other economies.

Senator Mansergh

The point about these conferences is that even if this is the view of some of the organisers, they can be challenged with a good deal of debate. I do not think one should be afraid of a conference because it appears to have a certain slant. If it has that certain slant, we can be represented there to correct it.

Senator O’Toole

It is on exactly that point that I raised this issue. I agree with Senator Mansergh if it is the case he has just outlined. However, I am not sure it is. As presented, the conference seems to be just a sit-and-listen debate. If that is the case, I agree with Deputy Ó Caoláin. If there is an opportunity to put an alternative viewpoint, I agree with Senator Mansergh. The documentation, however, is not clear and it seems to be short session with a welcome address and a half hour session with two speakers on the opening day. I do not see an opportunity for delegates to give a viewpoint. On the second day of the conference, there does not seem to be any opportunity to put an alternative viewpoint.

Senator Mansergh

When the word "panel" is used, it always involves questions from the floor.

Deputy Burton

There is a question and answer session at the end of each panel. The conference is quite Germanic in its organisation style.

Senator O’Toole

Would the Deputy like to rephrase?

Deputy Burton

That would apply to the left, as well as the right, in Germany. In other words, it started and ran on time but there was an absolute equivalent time for questions and answers at the end of each of the sessions.

Chairman

Is the joint committee agreed on attending the conference?

Deputy Ó Caoláin

I wish to have my dissent noted.

Chairman

We will note the Deputy's dissent. We are agreed there will be two representatives from both sides of the committee. The convenors are to consult their members and report to the clerk of the committee as to who will travel to the conference.

The next item is the proposed trip to New Zealand to examine financial services regulation. From preliminary inquiries, it seems Ireland has a more sophisticated regime from which New Zealand could learn more. The committee will re-examine the proposed trip.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

One cannot take in the New Zealand regime without taking in the Australian system. There is a voluntary ombudsman system in New Zealand for consumers and financial services. It works very well in the state of Victoria. The ombudsman for financial services situation in Ireland has been so controversial that it must be examined. New Zealand had a regulatory system for its banks but the New Zealand Government deregulated it. I do not know what they finished up with but they are now trying to re-introduce a regulatory framework. The New Zealand banking system is closely aligned to the Australian system.

Senator O’Toole

I do not agree that we should include Australia. No other country in the world is more like Ireland than New Zealand in terms of size, post-Westminster rule and being in the shadow of a large neighbour. New Zealand has the same population as Ireland and over the last 20 years it has been through the same issues such as Air New Zealand, banking regulation and moving from an agricultural economy to an industrial and services-based economy. Australia is completely different. We should focus more on New Zealand.

Deputy C. Murphy

I welcome the review of this proposed trip. A large percentage, some90%, of industries in New Zealand employ fewer than five people. This is substantially different from Ireland. If the committee is considering a visit to New Zealand, it should acquire some beneficial information. I concur with the Chairman that we should review the trip. It is a large amount of money to spend, on which there should be some return.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

I concur with Deputy Catherine Murphy. It is a huge outlay. The proposed focus of this trip could be investigated on the Internet or through correspondence. I supported an earlier trip because it was merited. It is sane and sensible that we attend the meeting in Paris. However, sending members to the other side of the world, at a cost in excess of €7,500 per member, must be seriously questioned. If the purpose of the fact-finding mission can be served more economically, effectively and speedily through correspondence or Internet research, then that is how it should be conducted.

On the figure of €50, what is it that members will enjoy that the officials will not?

Chairman

We are agreed that after preliminary inquiries we do not have a valid proposal.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

We agree on value for money. I once visited New Zealand for an agriculture fact-finding mission. One could see the whole of the island in six days. It has a small business sector to which Deputy Catherine Murphy referred. I have learnt that Australia has two ombudsman systems, one for the consumer and another for bank solvency. Ireland does not have such a system but we will eventually need it. For that reason, we should examine the Australian system. The state of Victoria has comprehensive credit legislation. We will get the same value for money if we extend the trip to a second week.

Chairman

I will close the topic at this stage as further research must be done.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Will we establish a sub-committee to examine it?

Chairman

I will short circuit this. Any member with a particular view on the topic should talk directly to the clerk of the committee. A sub-committee is not needed on this issue.

The €50 difference is because employees of the House are covered by State insurance. As Members are not employees, there is a €50 insurance supplement.

Sitting suspended at 3.30 p.m. and resumed at 3.35 p.m.