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Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 30 Apr 2013

Stability Programme Update: Discussion with Minister for Finance

I welcome the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, and his officials for a discussion on the stability programme update. The subject matter of the meeting is the European semester process which aims to secure lasting stability through a new system of economic policy co-ordination among member states. It is designed to ensure member states align their budgetary and economic policies with their obligations. Its ultimate purpose is to underpin sustainable economic growth to facilitate job creation and renew social cohesion across Europe in line with the Europe 2020 strategy. The format of the meeting involves opening remarks from the Minister which will be followed by a question and answer session.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected to the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses of the Oireachtas or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I thank the Chairman and committee members for inviting me to speak to them about the Irish stability programme - April 2013 update. I look forward to a constructive discussion. The stability programme was approved by the Government at today's Cabinet meeting which concluded at approximately 2.30 p.m. The statement on the programme was circulated to the members of the joint committee at approximately 3 p.m. They were the first to receive an update on the programme. I will open by providing the committee with an overview of the process involved in the programme and a synopsis of the outlook for the economy in the short and medium term before moving to a discussion of the public finances and an overview of our obligations under the fiscal compact.

I intend to open by giving an overview of the process involved and a synopsis of the outlook for the economy over the short and medium term before moving on to the public finances and an overview of our obligations under the fiscal compact. I will then respond briefly to the most recent report of the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, following which I will be happy to take questions and comments from committee members.

A number of important improvements were made recently to the budgetary system both at a national level and, in response to the changing fiscal architecture, at a European level. As part of the new European semester process, each EU member state submits a stability or convergence programme to the European Commission in April of every year. The stability programme sets out the official macroeconomic and fiscal policies for the following years. The policies are subject to peer review and recommendations are made for each member state to ensure that the policies set out have a euro area and EU dimension. The document has been laid before the Houses and I intend to submit it to the European Commission following this discussion. The Stability and Growth Pact requires us to set out our economic and fiscal projections for the current year and the following three years. Therefore, the current stability programme sets out the economic and fiscal position to 2016. At a national level, these forecasts set the scene for discussions that will take place over the summer in advance of budget 2014. The recent agreement on the two-pack of European regulations means the budget will be delivered in mid-October, earlier than in previous years.

I will now focus on the Irish economy and the outlook over the short and medium term. Having returned to growth in 2011, Ireland had a second successive year of growth in 2012. Preliminary figures show that real GDP increased by 0.9% in 2012. As is typical in small open economies such as Ireland's, the traded sector is leading the recovery, with exports growing by approximately 3% in 2012. This owes much to the significant price and cost adjustments that have taken place in recent years. However, within exports we are seeing some divergences. Goods exports are falling for the first time since 2009 in response to the general slowdown in our trading partners and product-specific developments, most notably in the pharma-chem sector - the often-mentioned pharmaceutical "patent cliff". By comparison, services performed strongly in 2012 and saw close to double-digit growth, driven by increased exports of business and IT services. In difficult international circumstances, the performance of the services sector is particularly impressive.

There has been a significant improvement in economy-wide cost competitiveness. The European Commission estimates that Ireland's nominal unit labour costs relative to those in the euro area have improved by 23% over the period 2008-2014. This is a result of the wage restraint shown by the private sector, pay reductions in the private sector and productivity improvements achieved across the economy. High-frequency data on the domestic economy provide a tentatively positive picture, with private consumption and investment increasing in the second half of last year. Disposable household income rose over the course of last year while the household savings rate declined from the second quarter onwards. Despite the recent dip in March, core retail sales were in consistent positive territory in the seven months to February and underpin the stabilisation in domestic demand.

Employment growth resumed in the second half of last year. The unemployment rate is now falling. Although it remained at the still too-high level of 14% in March, it has decreased from a peak of 15% in February 2012. I want to stress that the Government does not see the employment and unemployment forecasts contained within the SPU as targets. They are independent forecasts prepared by Department officials. I expect these forecasts will improve as the job creation measures in the budget, the Action Plan for Jobs and the infrastructure investment plans take hold.

On the economic outlook, my Department has made a modest downward revision to the macroeconomic forecasts for 2013-2015 compared to those which underpinned budget 2013. My Department expects GDP to grow by 1.3% this year, with a return to growth in employment and a fall in unemployment. This revision incorporates compositional changes to growth. Domestic demand has been revised slightly upwards on the back of recent high-frequency data, to which I referred already. This revision to domestic demand has led to a slightly more positive revision to employment growth in 2013. The contribution from exports has been revised downwards as the global economy remains weak and the impact of the patent cliff is weighing on pharma exports. We expect this process of GDP and employment growth to continue in 2014 and beyond, although a key risk to the forecast is, of course, economic developments in trading partners. Inflation is set to remain low, contributing further to the improvement in competitiveness that has been evident in Ireland since 2008.

As is always the case with forecasting, the baseline scenario hinges on a number of crucial assumptions. The stability programme contains a quantitative assessment of the impact on the economy of a number of different scenarios. Risks to the forecasts come from internal and external sources. Externally, a more prolonged downturn in key trading partners as a result of a more protracted period of deleveraging in advanced economies or any reignition of the sovereign debt crisis in the euro area would have a negative impact on these forecasts. Domestically, any unexpected increase in interest rates or acceleration in the pace of debt reduction could have a negative impact on domestic demand. Upside risks may present themselves if there is a stronger than assumed global recovery, while domestically, a return to more normal levels of investment from the current low base could boost growth once business confidence and credit conditions are supportive. Increased certainty regarding future prospects could reduce the level of precautionary savings by households, potentially boosting domestic demand.

On the fiscal front, a deficit of 7.6% has recently been estimated for 2012 by the CSO. This represents a significant improvement on the underlying position in 2011, when a deficit of 9.1% was recorded, and is well within the ceiling of 8.6% set by the ECOFIN Council, which sets out a path to achieving a correction of the excessive deficit by 2015.

Turning to this year, a number of developments since budget time have had an impact on the deficit for this year, but in aggregate terms they broadly off-set each other. These developments include a better than expected fiscal position at the end of 2012, the replacement of the promissory notes with long-term Government bonds, the sales of interest-bearing stakes in the financial sector and, of course, the on-target quarter-one 2013 Exchequer outturn, as well as first quarter economic data. This is the first articulation of fiscal policy in the aftermath of February's promissory note deal. As is standard budgetary procedure, the Government will make decisions in light of these developments and policy priorities at budget time. Therefore, the SPU makes a necessary but purely technical assumption that the proceeds of the promissory note savings are allocated to deficit reduction and that the consolidation amounts I outlined at budget time remain unchanged. The utilisation of these savings will be determined as part of the budgetary process.

Looking at this year, the revised forecast is for the deficit to improve to 7.4%, which is within the 7.5% ceiling set as part of the excessive deficit procedure. Importantly, the primary balance, which excludes interest payments, is set to turn positive in 2014 and move into a significant surplus in later years. In turn, gross debt is set to peak this year at 123% of GDP and return to a downward path afterwards. While this represents a small deterioration relative to budget time, it is important to note that the increase is reflective of the NTMA's successful engagement with the market in the first months of this year. It is not because of any deterioration in the underlying fiscal position. Indeed, the 2013 net debt position has improved marginally from budget time and is estimated at 98% of GDP.

In line with European guidelines, the SPU sets out updates on long-term fiscal sustainability, institutional reform of the public finances and quantitative risk analysis for macroeconomic and public finances.

The European fiscal rule book has changed considerably in recent years with the adoption of the six-pack in 2011, the fiscal compact in 2012 and the recent breakthrough on the two-pack under the Irish Presidency. In a nutshell, member states are required to be at their medium-term budget objective, the so-called MTO, or, if not, they should be on an adjustment path towards it. The MTO is defined as a budgetary position that safeguards against the risk of reaching the 3% of GDP threshold, ensuring the long-term sustainability of public finances.

For Ireland, this is a balanced budget in structural terms. More specifically, this involves a budgetary position where general Government revenues and expenditure are equal in a given year once the correction for the position in the economic cycle has been made. For illustrative purposes, today's stability programme sets out the adjustment path between 2016 and 2019, which takes us towards our MTO. It allows for revenues to grow in line with nominal GDP and for modest increases in expenditure over the period. With revenue growth greater than expenditure growth, the deficit will close sufficiently by 2019.

The path we have outlined is not simply for compliance with the European rule book. As we all know, Ireland's debt burden has increased substantially in recent years. Agreements reached over the past two years on the reduced interest rate on the European loans, the promissory note deal and the extension of maturities go a substantial way towards safeguarding our debt sustainability. However, long-term economic growth and job creation can only occur where the debt burden is set on a downward path so as to reduce the long-term drag on the economy and interest rate payments.

As I committed to before and as the chairman of the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council noted when appearing before this committee last week, the stability programme contains a response to the council's most recent report, published earlier this month. The council is largely supportive of the Government's policy of fiscal adjustment and considers that the deficit targets will be met. In light of the tax performance last year and further developments this year, the council is no longer calling for additional consolidation beyond that already specified. Instead, it endorses the consolidation path that I set out at budget time. It is also worth noting that the council considers the Government's fiscal stance conducive to prudent economic and budgetary management. The Government is committed to continuing on the path to sustainable public finances. The council report noted that, given the deterioration in the external environment since budget day, including weaker than expected activity among some major trading partners, and exchange-rate appreciation, achieving the 1.5% GDP growth forecast for this year will be challenging, although growth is expected to be in positive territory. My Department has reached the same conclusions and the forecast for GDP growth in 2013 has been revised downwards to 1.3% in the stability programme.

In the context of discussions about the Department's forecasting methodology, I note the report assesses the approach to macroeconomic forecasting in the Department and finds it is in line with the approach used by the ESRI and the Central Bank. This provides a level of confidence that the Department's approach is in line with best practice nationally. The Government's primary objective is to put the economy back on a sustainable growth path and return to a sustainable level of job creation.

With regard to the public finances, our primary aim remains the correction of the excessive general Government deficit by 2015. We have met all the interim deficit targets and the Government remains committed to bringing the deficit below 3% of GDP within the stated time horizon. Once this is achieved, we must remember that sustainable public finances are essential for balanced economic growth. Once the excessive deficit is corrected, fiscal policy in Ireland will be framed in line with the requirement to make sufficient progress towards the medium-term budgetary objective and to put public debt on a downward path.

I thank the members for their attention. I will be happy to respond to any questions they raise.

I thank the Minister. I understand he has a meeting with the troika at approximately 7 p.m., so we will have to be very efficient in our time management. Opposition spokespersons Deputies Michael McGrath and Doherty will have ten minutes each. Deputies Donnelly and Boyd Barrett from the Technical Group will have five minutes each as they are sharing time, and the remaining members, Deputies Humphreys and Murphy, will be entitled to contribute, although they will be allowed less time. I ask Deputy McGrath to commence.

We have suffered a time constraint ourselves in that sufficient time was not allowed to go through the document and prepare for the meeting. This is far from ideal but I understand the document was just approved by the Cabinet today. I have gone through it as best I can and have identified some questions that I would like the Minister to answer.

Overall, there are positive and negative aspects to the SPU. It represents the first shot in the preparation of budget 2014. The key issue is the assumptions that are made. The whole budget will stand or fall based on the assumptions of export growth and general economic growth. Some sensitivity analysis has been done. Page 30 of the document concerns the impact of changes in world output, the savings rate and the interest rate. If the economy remains relatively stagnant over the next two or three years and if the rate of growth remains between 0% and 1%, which is a distinct possibility, what will be the impact on our deficit and our debt-to-GDP ratio, given that the latter is to rise to 123% this year despite advance funding by the NTMA? What will be our position if the economy remains relatively stagnant? I hope it will not remain so. However, we must entertain that distinct possibility, given all that has emerged in recent years.

Given the timeframe, I ask members and the Minister to be succinct in their responses.

The assumptions are based on the best information we have. Ours is a small, open economy and our assumptions can be turned askew by events elsewhere. However, the forecasting record of the Department in the past couple of years has been better than that of the private-sector forecasters. We do adjust and we are making a slight downward adjustment now because of new information released since I introduced the budget. One can speculate pessimistically or optimistically but we are standing by our forecasts. We predict a growth rate of approximately 1.3% this year and 2.4% next year. I understand the consensus table on forecasting was issued today. It makes exactly the same assumptions as the Department. It identifies a growth rate of 1.3% for 2013 and 2.4% for next year. If we are put off-kilter we will have to think again, but we are pretty confident about our forecasts. The record of the Department of Finance has been very good.

An aspect of the two-pack arrangement is that we will need to have independent verification of our forecasts. The Government, after considering this, has asked the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council to carry out this function. We will probably have to make a minor amendment in legislation to give it statutory power in this regard. In the future, while much of the churning of data and the raw numbers will be done in the Department of Finance, verification will be carried out by the fiscal advisory council. This is in line with one of the requirements under the provisions of the two-pack.

Perhaps it would be helpful if the Department made available to us some of the sensitivity analysis on the impact of various growth rates, such as 1% and 2%, on the fiscal side, on the deficit and on the debt-to-GDP ratio. Perhaps it is in the document but I have not seen it.

There are annexes at the back containing considerable information. Much of it is communicated numerically but the Deputy is a numbers man anyway and will, therefore, have no difficulty in working it out.

It is table 11, impact on main aggregates, at the top of page 30. Much of what the Deputy is seeking is there.

It is not quite what I am seeking, but the officials are aware of the question.

The Deputy should ring us and we will see what we can do. We do not hide information; we give out as much as we can.

I accept that. I will move on to the next major challenge for the Minister, which will be the preparation of the budget for 2014. I realise he will not deal with that today, but my question is about the framework within which the budget will be prepared. Under the assumptions that have been made, if the Minister goes ahead with the €5.1 billion adjustment over the next two years, we will reach a deficit of 2.2% by the end of 2015. That is considerably better than the limit of 3%. Under the ECOFIN recommendations the deficit limit next year was to be 5.1%, but the Minister is now projecting that it will be 4.3%. Must the Minister achieve the figure of 5.1% or is he stuck with the nominal adjustment that is specified in the MOU of €3.1 billion for next year?

That is a matter that must be discussed with the troika. For the purposes of this exercise, somewhat in excess of €1 billion annual savings arising from the promissory notes new arrangement is inputted here as if all of it will be dedicated to reducing the deficit. On that basis one gets the 2.2% figure. Obviously, however, if there are additional savings or if there are costs elsewhere as the year goes by it would be a matter for Government decision. We have not decided yet. There are no savings this year because the cost of the liquidation cancels the savings, but there are savings of approximately €1 billion each year from 2014.

There is, however, something very simple to which the Deputy and colleagues might not have averted. Let us suppose I were to use all of those savings on social welfare or tax, for example, by cutting income tax by €1 billion. I would need the €1 billion savings the following year to sustain the tax at the new level to which I had cut it. On the other hand, if I were to use it for capital spending, I can keep spending it every year. If I use the €1 billion to build schools, health centres or whatever else one regards as necessary social and economic infrastructure, after the first building project is completed and the children are out of the prefabs and in the school, I can spend the following year's savings again in that area. It is much smarter to use this, if we are going to use it, on capital rather than current expenditure.

There are some things in current expenditure which would also have a jobs and growth impact. An example is something we discussed in the committee recently and in which Deputy Boyd Barrett had a strong interest, eco-friendly homes, the insulation of homes and so forth. Any type of grant aid for that comes from current expenditure. If one did something about repairing country roads, which probably need extra money now, that also comes from current expenditure. It would not have to be all capital expenditure. However, I am sure colleagues in the Government will be looking for a slice of it. I am not sure whether next year is the year for that or whether we should press on with the adjustment next year and perhaps do something later. It will depend on how the year develops and how we can use it best to restore and grow the economy. Those are the considerations with which I will work as the year passes and we get more information.

I assume the projections in the SPU assume no deal with the ESM on bank recapitalisation and legacy issues with the pillar banks. Nothing has been factored in for that.

It is on the debt that it would have an impact rather than on the deficit.

We can factor in only what we have done on such issues. We have done the promissory note arrangement. The extension of the maturities does not have a strong up-front impact on the deficit, although it has a huge impact on debt sustainability.

The Minister referred to the issue of unemployment in his opening remarks. The forecast for this year is still approximately 14% and the Minister envisages it reducing to 13.3% next year. As the Minister said, these are not targets but forecasts. I accept that point. However, when the Minister is considering the use of any spare capacity I urge him to focus on employment creation and jobs, because of the additional benefits that brings with reducing the social welfare bill and improving disposable income. That is a key objective.

They are forecasts, not targets. The distinction is that if the Government continues to take a series of initiatives under the jobs programme that are job friendly, the forecasts change and improve. The targets are in advance of the forecast.

I have made no secret of what I think should happen if there is spare capacity in the economy. I believe we should invest in growing the economy and creating jobs. That should be the priority. However, there will be different views in Cabinet. The Deputy knows how it works. There are different demands. If there is a very pressing social need, for example, one will apply funds to that as well. As a general principle, the thrust of policy from my position would be towards restoring the economy to growth and getting the benefit in job creation consequent to that.

My final question is on the programme with the troika. At this stage, as we go into May of the final year, does the Minister confidently believe we are on course to exit the programme in all material respects and that we will be in a position to sustain funding in the markets into the future?

It is early in the year. Before I came here this evening I looked at the spreads. I do not have them with me. The ten year bond is down to the level where the five year bond was a couple of months ago. It is down to approximately 3.5% this evening, while the five year bond is approximately 2.3%. We are moving towards historically low rates of interest. On the present trajectory, it appears it would be possible to fund all our requirements on the open market if we wish to do that. However, there are other considerations. We are looking at a deficit of approximately €1 billion per month, and we need €12 billion to make our expenditure match our tax take. That is the gap. There are also bonds maturing and we must roll those over. The raw figure for what we need this year is approximately €17 billion. We still have €7 billion to draw down from the European funds and the IMF. There would not be a big advantage in drawing down those funds in terms of the interest rate applying, but the maturities on the European funds are approximately 20 years. In terms of maturities, there is a significant advantage in accessing the European money rather than market money, even though there is not a lot in the interest rate. I rely a great deal on the NTMA to make the calls on this. We will see how it progresses as the year goes by. However, we are in a good position at present, and there are cash reserves above €25 billion in the NTMA . That is prudence. We saw what happened in Cyprus and the resulting shock wave. What if Italy had not formed a government? There can be a shock wave, particularly from a big country, so we must over-provision in the interests of prudence.

Like Deputy McGrath, I have been trying to parse the figures in the best way possible in the short time available. Most people are concerned about the fiscal adjustment the Government plans in the October budgets this year and next year. The updated document the Minister has provided basically says to stay on course. Some of that is technical assumptions. According to the figures the Minister provided, the Government will overshoot the target of 3% in 2015 by €1.4 billion or €1.5 billion of adjustments.

The Irish Fiscal Advisory Council projected that the Government would overshoot and come in at 2.1%, and the Minister is projecting that the Government will come in at 2.2%. The council stated that this would equate to €1.6 billion. The Government is overshooting by €1.4 billion or €1.5 billion. Can the Minister give any comfort to people at home that there will be substantial relief in respect of the adjustment targets that the Government is planning in the budgets for this year and next year? Let us consider these figures. Given the scale of the adjustment - approximately €1.5 billion - it would be necessary to phase it in at least over a two-year period and not back-end it.

Is the Minister concerned about the valuation of the IBRC assets and the potential for the State to make up that revenue shortfall for NAMA? Is the Government holding back until those valuations are clear about what the shortfall will be, if indeed there is a shortfall, before it makes any commitments in respect of this matter?

Forecasting in an inexact science. We are projecting out to 2015 and in this case, for the first time, we are having a punt at what the thing will be like from 2016 to 2019 on the best figures available. It is an inexact science and it moves. That being said, we are in a good position at the moment. It looks as though there may be some flexibility and as though we will beat our targets if we do nothing else between now and 2015. However, it is too early in the year to give any commitment on what way the budget will work out, because things can happen to knock us off course.

Let us recall the time, two years ago, when I first took over this job. Many learned people, including those attached to the major business faculties in the universities, were saying the country was bunched and bankrupt, that there was no solution except default, that the debt was not sustainable, that the Government could not fulfil the programme and that it could not do what it said it was going to do. If the Deputy goes over the record he will find very credible people making such predictions. We have got to a point at which, in shorthand terms, we are approximately one year ahead of where I envisaged we would be coming into the summer of 2013. Certainly we have made a good deal of progress, but we must sustain that now.

There are always choices to be made. Should we say now that because we are doing well we should give away the benefits of our success, or should we stick to the task at hand, finish the job and ensure we have a solid sustainable economy in which there is no fear for our children's future and a growing, modern economy in which there is work for our people? Deputy Doherty will be involved in that as well. I will discuss it openly with him but he must measure it. It is a question of judgment. I am not prepared to call it coming into May because I do not have enough information yet. Deputy Doherty might be right: the right thing to do might be to ease up somewhat and use money elsewhere. My priority will be to see whether we have extra resources for growth and job creation. We have made good progress in the past 48 hours with the European Investment Bank. The roads programme is going ahead, the Newlands Cross project is going ahead and bundles of schools projects are going ahead. The health centres and such-----

We are pressed for time. We are not giving away anything. The figures show the Government is overshooting its targets and, as the Minister remarked earlier, bond rates are substantially lower. However, that is a result of the austerity and the pressure that ordinary people in this State have had to endure. That is what has resulted in these positives. While the markets may be pleased and while Merkel and others may be pleased, many people are at the pin of their collar and cannot take any more. When they see that we are overshooting they are hoping there will be some reprieve.

I wish to crystallise the matter. I asked the fiscal advisory council the same question and its representatives suggested we should try to hit the 3% target but no further. Is it the opinion of the Minister that by 2015 we will hit 3% and go no further? Is the Minister willing to make whatever adjustment can be made or whatever let-up can be introduced before then to reach the 3% target? The target is 3% and not 2.8%, 2.7% or 2.2%, as the Minister has presented. Is that the position of the Government?

Yes; the Government's position is that we will achieve our targets under the programme. The target when the programme was designed was to have a deficit of less than 3% by 2014. In May 2011 we renegotiated and got an extra year, so we must get under 3% by 2015. The Government position is that we must get to that target, but that is not the point I am making. I am suggesting that forecasts by their nature are inexact and there can be a plus or a minus.

I understand that, but I am asking whether it is the Government's strategy to get to 3% and whether any benefit or overshoot will be given back in the form of an easing of austerity in that year.

Let us consider what we are doing here. Apart from fiscal reasons and conditions in Europe, the reason I am happy to project a set of figures for 2016 and to trace it out to 2019 is that I am keen to see if an extra adjustment is required, below the 3%, to get to a sustainable position. According to the figures we ran, it looks as though as long as we keep our expenditure below the growth rate in the economy, it leaves a little headroom for additional expenditure. Then, the growing economy between 2016 and 2019 should take us to our medium-term objective.

Keeping expenditure that low over that period will result in severe pressure on ordinary people. We have a growing and an ageing population and that will translate into serious difficulties.

I do not agree with the assumption Deputy Doherty is making at all.

That may not be right at all. It might be the opposite. If we do not keep to the fiscal targets we may blow the economy. We may have an extra 50,000 people out of work and an economy going down the hill. Deputy Doherty's argument is that it will benefit the people if we ease up. That is not proven; it is simply a Sinn Féin theory. There is not a shred of evidence to suggest that it is correct. If we had eased up last year, would it have worked? Of course not. We would be in a worse position now. What we have done is working. The reason we are in a good position is that we have pursued those policies.

That may be the Minister's position, but many people will take the view, when they consider how they are getting on and the pressures they have in their lives, that it is not working.

I want to move on to the point-----

That is not an economic argument.

I am telling the Minister the reality of where people are at. That is the reality.

Deputy Doherty is telling me the reality of where some people are at.

It is where a lot of people are at. It is fine to have projections on paper relating to deficits but there is an impact on real people and real lives in real communities, and that is what I am reflecting.

Everybody agrees with that; it is a tautology. Anyone in politics knows what it means for real people and real families and what 14% unemployment means in communities throughout the country.

That is the reason I believe there needs to be a let-up in austerity.

That is what we are trying to fix. We got the mandate to fix it and, thus far, we are making significant progress in fixing it. Sinn Féin's alternative policies would make it worse.

I fully contest that, but I want to move on to a question on unemployment. The Minister's last update, with which we must compare this, was in 2012. This time last year, the Minister estimated unemployment would be 11.7% in 2015. In this update, the Minister estimates it will be 12.8%. Given that the Government is suggesting that the action plan for jobs has been so successful, why does the Minister estimate that unemployment will rise compared to the figures presented last year? Is the Minister satisfied that over the lifetime of the Government his projections will see unemployment decrease by 2% and that, stretching right out to 2019, we will see an unemployment level of 11%?

To return to Deputy Pearse Doherty's previous point, the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council recommends the full implementation of a correction of €5.1 billion, so there is no change of position in what it advises us to do. On the employment figure, it goes back to Deputy Michael McGrath's point. We are making a distinction between targets and forecasts, and what we have in here is a series of forecasts based on what is happening at present. An enormous amount of work is going on across Departments, particularly in Deputy Bruton's Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation.

Why does the Minister forecast that unemployment will be worse in 2015? He is forecasting that it will be 12.8%, compared to the 11.7% he forecast last year.

The other issue I have is with regard to the growth forecasts from 2013 to 2015. Last year the Minister forecast growth of 2.2% for 2013, but this has now been revised downwards to 1.3%. For 2014 the forecast was 3%, which is now down to 2.4%, and for 2015 it was 3%, which is now down to 2%. If one takes these in combination, over those three years we would have seen a cumulative growth rate of 8.2%, but now the Minister has revised that down to 6.5%. Does the Minister not believe there is a need for a stimulus in the economy? One can see that in terms of exports. The value of exports in 2002 was the same as the value of exports today, yet we have an unemployment level that is three times what we had then. We need an injection into the domestic economy and that is where the Minister's policy is failing. The fact that he is projecting a higher rate of unemployment in 2015 than he did this time last year, despite all the work he claims the Government has done, is adequate evidence of that.

The international situation has changed. To base arguments on the value of exports is to base it on something that can move around depending on demand in our international trading partners, the exchange rate with the US or the UK as the dollar or sterling goes up or down, and price adjustments. I said in my introductory remarks that exports have decreased this year and I have given reasons for it, but it has nothing to do with the domestic economy. How Deputy Doherty thinks that stimulating the domestic economy would improve exports I do not know.

It is in the domestic economy that jobs will increase. Will the Minister answer the question? This is my third time to ask it. Why is he projecting a rise in unemployment in 2015, giving a level of 12.8%, compared to the projection of 11.7% that was made last year, despite all the work the Government claims it has done on this?

Because when the economy picks up there will be a return of Irish people who went abroad in the very bad times and they will seek jobs here. If the Deputy looks at employment rates rather than unemployment rates he will get a better projection.

The Minister has revised them downwards as well.

Emigrants will also come in from other parts of Europe under the free movement of labour.

I have one very direct question for the Minister. The sale of State assets is not included in the Minister's update. How does the commitment to the troika to sell off €3 billion worth of State assets, some of which is to be used to pay down debts, figure in this arithmetic? Does it figure in this arithmetic? If so, when does the Minister have to sell these State assets? What is the timescale? Is it required this year? Is structural reform required, or is it simply a balance sheet amount of €3 billion, which the Minister can, if he wishes, get elsewhere? I tried to get a straight answer from the troika on this and could not get one, so I hope the Minister might go one better and tell us whether it is required under the stability programme that we sell these assets, or if it is simply required that we come up with €3 billion. In fact, it is €1.5 billion, given that the Minister says half the proceeds of the sale of State assets can be used for something else. Can we just come up with €1.5 billion elsewhere - for example, from the savings the Minister claims we have made as a result of the restructuring of the promissory note and the other debt deals - and therefore not sell State assets such as our forests? Could the Minister answer those questions and explain how the sale of State assets, the proceeds from them and so on fit into this arithmetic?

The sale of State assets on the expenditure side is within the responsibility of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, so I am not the expert on it. His position is that in the course of this year, probably towards the back end of this year, the sale of that portion of Bord Gáis which he announced will be under way and completed, and two power stations abroad will also be sold. One is in Spain and the other is in the UK. We have also taken the legislation through the Government and the heads of a Bill have been sent to the draftsman. That is the NewERA legislation, which includes the strategic investment fund. That will be vested with an advisory function on future sales of assets. No State assets, bar the national lottery, are included in this arithmetic.

For this year or for any year in the medium term?

So it is open to us not to sell them but to meet the targets through whatever means we choose.

When the sales I have indicated Deputy Howlin expects to make come through, the figures will be adjusted to allow for that.

It is a rather perverse notion of success against a background of 14% unemployment and crippling austerity which is being imposed on ordinary people. One can balance books by making people suffer. To take an extreme example, if we wiped out whole sections of the population you could probably balance the books, but it would be on the basis of extreme suffering, so it is rather perverse. Surely the only criteria for success would be what the Minister is going to do to deal with the unemployment situation or to ease the level of suffering people are feeling. Examining the tables for unemployment, we are looking at the continuation of mass unemployment for the foreseeable future, with only very small reductions in the best case scenario. Is that not a pretty bleak outlook? Is the best case scenario not hopelessly optimistic? For example, the Minister says the baseline assumption is one in which a modest international recovery takes hold in the second half of this year.

Deputy Boyd Barrett is cutting into Deputy Donnelly's time.

What is the Minister's basis for saying there will be a modest recovery when all the indicators from Europe are that the economy is contracting?

If I try to accommodate Deputy Boyd Barrett, which I have, I would expect that he listen to me when I speak.

I am sorry, Chairman.

If we had followed the policies Deputy Boyd Barrett often proposed we would be like Greece before the change of government and our unemployment levels would probably be around 35% to 40%. If we adopted his policies now, we could reverse what is a good trajectory and fall back into that position. What is my basis for projecting modest growth? The IMF has done an evaluation and says emerging economies are growing, the US is growing strongly and Europe is the back marker. It projects world growth of approximately 3.5% for this year and stronger growth next year. The European Commission projects that growth will be restored in Europe in the second half of this year. It will be modest but positive growth and it will be stronger next year.

That is the basis of the projections. On the unemployment side, one forgets so quickly. Matters are relatively normal now but the Deputy should think back to the day he was elected. Then many people believed we would not survive. The great and the good were predicting it was mission impossible for the incoming Government. By pursuing our policies, we have made significant progress. This time last year unemployment stood at 15%. Now, it is 14%, so we are moving in the right direction, downwards.

I would like if it were moving faster. That is why I am drawing the distinction between forecasting and targeting. We have given the forecasts but we hope to do better with our targets. As late as today, we made arrangements with the European Investment Bank to provide some stimulus to the economy. We are tied into deficit controls, spending ceilings, so we cannot have additional investment unless we get it off balance sheet by using the European Investment Bank. It is on board now and is committed to giving us significant funding. The bundle of health centres announced by the Minister for Health will be up and running in August while the next bundle of schools will be run out in the autumn. All these initiatives are very important.

Before getting into the detail, I want to echo Deputy Michael McGrath’s comments that getting the SPU, stability programme update, at 3.30 p.m. today was extremely frustrating. I now have to read it in conjunction with last year’s SPU and other documents.

Germany submitted its fiscal statement and annual budget on 17 April and many other member states have followed suit. I know this year for Ireland is a bit of a dry run because we are still in a country programme and country-specific recommendations will not be issued by the Commission based on this SPU. However, next year this important document will go to the Commission and it will issue country-specific recommendations. These, in turn, will be debated by the European Parliament and then go back to the Commission. The recommendations are binding. If we miss them, there are sanctions which can be brought against us. Is it the Minister’s intention next year to provide sufficient time to the Oireachtas and this committee to get its teeth into this SPU?

This document will not be sent to the Commission until this debate is completed. We will send it then either tonight or tomorrow morning. We deliberately held it back from the Commission so we could have this debate. The committee is getting the first cut of this. I could not bring it to the committee until I cleared it with the Government. As the Deputy knows, the troika is in town and, obviously, it had an interest in this too. I brought it to the committee at the first available opportunity.

There was nothing to stop the Deputy studying the raft of documents he referred to earlier for the past month because he knew we were having this debate anyway. He did not have to wait for my speech before he started to examine the documents. The Deputy was not inhibited in any way whatsoever. Germany has the right to publish on 17 April but it is our right to publish any time in April.

It is correct this will be sent to the Commission and circulated to other European parliaments. I said in my statement that there would be peer review. There is a whole raft of new fiscal rules coming in for Europe which will not apply directly to us immediately because we have firmer rules in our programme. As soon as we are out of the programme, the new fiscal rules will apply. That is what a fiscal union is about and that is the way Europe is moving.

Does the Minister think it would be sufficient next year to give three hours for the committee to prepare to debate this document and then an hour to discuss it while giving no time to the Seanad or the Dáil?

It depends on how the committee puts its time to use. If it does what the Deputy does, and has done in the Dáil on several occasions which is to have a wrangle about process rather than dealing with the document, then it is a waste of time.

I have to say I find the Minister’s attitude extraordinary. This is really important stuff. The Minister talks about a new budgetary process. All I am asking for is comfort that next year we will have sufficient time to look at the SPU. Of course, I have been looking at the other documents for the past 12 months. As the Minister will appreciate, what is important for us to understand is the differences between the various documents so we know what policy changes are being made. I find it extraordinary that the Minister does not believe this committee and the Oireachtas should have sufficient time to debate this before he sends it to the Commission. By the way, he is not even giving us time to debate it. He is showing it to us in fact. This entire committee could say the SPU is terrible but it will be sent to the Commission anyway. There is no meaningful input from the committee because the Minister will not change a single sentence. There is plenty of detail I want to get into but if we do not get the process right, we will not get the time to do the review. I am genuinely surprised at the Minister’s response.

At the risk of offending the Deputy again, Deputies Michael McGrath and Pearse Doherty made substantial inputs but Deputy Donnelley began his with a series of accusations. If we have limited time, I would have thought the best approach was to use that limited time to the best effect possible. I do not know what the timetabling arrangements will be for next year. However, this is an initial look at the SPU. There is nothing to stop the Deputy from putting down a Private Members Bill on it or requesting a debate on the economy in the Dáil.

I did my best to give the committee an opportunity to examine this before it is sent to the Commission. There is another constraint on us. When we send this to the Commission, it goes out to national parliaments. It is then leaked, as it always is, and there is great offence here that other parliaments had it circulated before the Dáil had time to discuss it. This is why there is an urgency about it. I appreciate the Deputy’s concerns but he should use the time available to the best effect.

I believe the best effect is giving some meaningful input to this committee when this document comes back from the Commission with binding recommendations.

When compared to last year’s SPU, there are noticeable changes. Current expenditure, for example, goes up €2.5 billion but capital expenditure falls by €3 billion. Why is that the case?

The rise in current expenditure is due to interest rate increases. The capital expenditure is in line with the trajectory over the multi-annual budgets. We always showed there was going to be an adjustment in the capital spend downward because we thought we could pick it up with off balance sheet expenditure through other sources such as the European Investment Bank.

Why has current expenditure increased by €2.5 billion?

As I said, one of the principal reasons is interest rates. There was an interest rate holiday, cleverly negotiated by our predecessors, which kicked back in when it expired.

I am comparing the figures for 2013 and 2014 from last year’s SPU to the figures for 2013 and 2014 from this year’s SPU. The interest rate holiday is already accounted for. Why is the figure for current expenditure €2.5 billion higher now?

The promissory note, with an interest rate holiday, is being replaced by Exchequer bonds on which interest is chargeable. The promissory note had this holiday, but I do not want to describe it in adverse terms; it was probably clever negotiation. However, this created a difficulty for the incoming Government, while it eased the problems of the outgoing Government in an election year and the subsequent year.

I thank the Minister for attending. It must be welcomed that, given the difficult path the country and its citizens have had to take, the targets are being achieved and that the cliche that there is light at the end of the tunnel is proving to be true. I have some questions for the Minister. I know that, linked with the European semester, business groups and others have long since been asking that the budget be brought forward from Christmas and it is welcome that is to happen. Our fiscal targets were debated last summer following the fiscal stability treaty referendum. How do the figures the Minister has produced today impact on these targets?

On debt reduction, the target for which we have overshot, I note that the forecast for this year is a reduction of only 0.2%, while for next year it will be 3%. I am aware that the Minister has said projections and forecasts are not always accurate, but is there potential for a similar overshoot next year? Why is the target reduction only 0.2% for 2013.

On the debt rule, I understand the target is that three years after we exit our programme, we will commence with a reduction of one-twentieth per annum of the excess over 60% of the debt-to-GDP ratio. The figures show an increase. Last year the ceiling was expected to be 119% of GDP, yet the figures now show a rate of 121% of GDP. Therefore, there is a 2% increase. How will this impact on our ability to achieve the 5% reduction year on year?

On the information Deputy Dara Murphy is seeking, the answer is complicated. If the Deputy looks at page 21 of the document, he will see the bar graphs and if he looks at the footnotes, they explain them. Effectively, our position was so good this year because once-off events contributed largely to our getting from the target of 8.6% imposed by the troika to 7.6%. These events will not be repeated in 2013. The interest rate issue also comes into play. Whether we will be at the figure of 7.5% this year will depend on whether expenditure will be below profile and taxes above profile. However, it is too early in the year to say. We are within the targets of our overall programme. It is a surprise to see that such little progress is being projected on the deficit figure for 2013. Our position is good this year because of once-off events last year, some on the savings side and some on the expenditure side. There is a full explanation in the document. The heading is 3.3 which deals with the transition from the deficit figure for 2012 to the deficit figure for 2013. I will let the Deputy go through it himself because it is complex.

What was the Deputy's second question?

The second question concerned our debt which I think will peak at a figure of 121%, as opposed to 118% or 119% forecast for last year. What impact will this have? Does the Minister perceive it will have a negative impact on our achieving the 0.5% reduction over the 20 year period?

No, that will kick in after 2019. The debt ratio must fall. We believe, based on the figures we have included, that GDP growth will do the heavy lifting. The strategy must be to keep expenditure below the growth rate in the economy. There will be a little head room for extra expenditure but not a lot, based on current growth projections. Obviously, if growth increases, we will have more head room. Based on this set of figures, we should get from 2016 to 2019 without further correction, other than keeping expenditure down. After that, we should get to a position where we will have an ongoing debt correction, in line with our obligations under the treaty. However, the forecasts, obviously, carry upside and downside risks. Looking at it from 2013 onwards, this is the best set of forecasts we have.

With regard to the promissory note deal, the Minister mentioned that we would not see any real benefit in 2013. However, is there a benefit of approximately €170 million coming through in 2013?

No, when we take account of the gains and the losses, there might even be a loss. The gains or savings will be made next year.

Yes, but is it not mentioned on page 20 that there will be a positive of €170 million in regard to the deficit?

The deficit increases; it does not decrease.

This morning the news from the Central Bank was that the outcome would be a dividend of €100 million to the State. Has this been taken into account?

It was not taken into account on budget day, but it is taken into account in these figures. What was included in the budget was a figure of just over €1 billion, but a further €120 million is now included in additional profits.

Is that figure of €120 million included?

It is included in this set of figures, but it was not included in the budget figures.

Is it being used to pay down the debt or are we looking at it as part of the head room the Minister mentioned?

Yes. It is included in the balance sheet and we will see how things will work out at the end of the year.

In his presentation the Minister mentions that in the competitive areas we are pretty much maxed out with regard to what we have done in the export of goods, in respect of the pharma patent cliff and chip manufacturing which, though quite substantial, has levelled off and is probably starting to drop. On the domestic economy, I welcome the 1,000 jobs in road construction projects announced today. However, there is an unsustainably low output in house construction. If this does not change quickly, there will be a shortage of housing units from mid-2016 onwards, particularly given the projected growth in population and the return of immigrants. On the capital budget, will we see some investment in house building?

There is a very small Exchequer spend envisaged for house building. However, I introduced a number of initiatives in two Finance Bills to try to restore the fortunes of the construction industry.

It has become a kind of scapegoat sector of the economy.

It is at an unsustainable low at this stage.

Every modern economy has a functioning and dynamic structural and development sector. It is about 5% and 6% of GDP now whereas it should be 9% or 10%, and it was more than 20%, which was unsustainable. It seems that as the property market in Dublin, in particular, begins to sort itself out and there is some demand for houses again, construction is also beginning in Dublin. In the greater Castleknock area, for example, I understand three sites have opened up in the past six weeks or so, and there is the big site in Dun Laoghaire which is being finished out by the Cosgrave company, and there might be another phase to it. I also understand a big site has been opened in Clontarf for house building.

NAMA is helping as well. It is providing funds to developers and providing vendor funds, which are beginning to come on stream. It is very slow down the country so we will be depending on funds from the European Investment Bank for the bundles of schools and health centres to give a bit of construction activity in rural Ireland. The normal sequence is that what begins in Dublin moves into the rest of the economy. For the first time in a number of years, there is some activity in the construction industry in the capital city.

I call Senator Barrett and ask him to keep his questions as short as possible.

I welcome the Minister. With regard to the table on page 22, the increase in taxation over the period was from €36.6 billion to €44.9 billion, which is €8.3 billion. The reduction in current expenditure is hardly anything - I believe it is about 4%. I know the media presents Deputy Noonan as a cutting Minister for Finance but in fact he is a tax increasing Minister for Finance. That is what has led to a lot of demoralisation outside. I calculate that the Minister tackled the deficit on a ratio of 96:4 in that period. What is the thinking behind that very strong emphasis on extra taxation?

The policy was 2:1, namely, for every €2 of adjustment by way of expenditure cuts there would be €1 adjustment by way of tax. However, while the expenditure side is more difficult to manage, tax goes up with the economic cycle. In the first three months of this year, income tax was up 8%, but I did not increase income tax in either of the budgets I brought in. While we get the added benefit, the taxes I brought in were not on personal taxation.

It is a fair point. It is harder to do expenditure cuts. If we go back to the two budgets, even though there were tax increases, the big political rows were about small amounts of money around expenditure. On the Social Welfare Bill, Senator Barrett and all his colleagues in the Seanad, including the Taoiseach's nominees, voted against an amount of €26 million, and brought the Social Welfare Bill down to a majority of one vote. If the Senator reflects on that, he will see the difficulties of controlling expenditure.

With regard to the €300 million that is causing trouble for the Minister, Deputy Howlin, it is 0.6% of €51.5 billion of net current expenditure. Could the Minister for Finance issue an edict to all managers of public expenditure to cut 0.6% rather than have to fall out with all his trade union friends, the social partners, gardaí, teachers and so on?

This is a matter for the Minister, Deputy Howlin. I do not have the role of controlling expenditure. Normally, what happens when edicts like that are issued is we might get the adjustment for one year but it does not change the base. It is like elastic - it goes back again the following year. What we need are base changes so the permanent base of expenditure is reduced. That is why the Minister is adopting the approach he is adopting. While it is €300 million this year, over the three-year cycle it is €1 billion, which is a significant base change.

I thank the Minister. The clock has run out on us.

Like the wedding feast of Cana, I have kept the best wine until last. I invite Deputy Mathews to make a brief comment.

Well done to the Minister on getting a grand gain of just over the €1 billion mark. I believe he is right to save that in order to look at the possibilities for capital programmes and capital expenditures. As they are non-recurring, it is easier to keep the tiller steady on the current account.

On the debt levels and debt maturities, the financial press talks about skyscraper roll-overs and that sort of thing. The fact we got an extra seven years on the maturities of the programme debt plus the rolling out over 40 years of the promissory note profile takes away some of the dangers on the skyscraper re-financing that will be occurring in two or three years' time. I ask the Minister to extend rather than pull the punches with people at the ECB and EU over the necessity to get some retrospective creditor financing for the banks so the banks can actually be further capitalised. My estimates are that they need a good deal more financing capital to absorb the losses that Ms Fiona Muldoon, for example, has flagged in SMEs on top of the mortgage losses, which need to be surgically dealt with.

I would love to hear from the Minister what is his definition of "exiting the programme". People throw out that phrase and, to my mind, exiting a programme is when all the available facilities have been used up, they are disbursed and one has then to keep in line with the conditionality of the ongoing commitments under the loan agreements. Is that what the Minister understands by it?

I suppose the simple way of saying what "exiting the programme" means is funding ourselves on the markets rather than through the funds from the European authorities and the IMF. Exiting the programme and full sustainable market access are the two sides of the same coin. That is one way of explaining it. The other way is that the troika has gone home and is not coming in every three months to review what we are doing, and the conditionality of the programme has been completed. We have 200 separate conditions fulfilled to date-----

It is a bit like, in ordinary banking terms-----

You promised me you would be brief, Deputy.

Just one sentence. When one gets a package of loans made available from creditors, there are disbursement programmes. As one gets the money on the terms and conditions advanced, the terms and conditions normally keep obtaining after the loans are fully disbursed. That is the programme of disbursement. Then, there is the continuing operation of the State, which is different. We owe it to the people to explain what we mean by exiting a programme when disbursements are complete. The Minister says there is €7 billion to draw down.

As long as we owe something in excess of 17% of the money borrowed to the European institutions, there will be continuing oversight. On that basis, we will have the programme for a long time, but it will not be hands-on scrutiny. The other point is that while we are all working very hard in our small space in Ireland to sort out things, the fiscal rules in Europe have been changing very rapidly, so those who are not in any programme now-----

The two-pack, the six-pack, the Stability Growth Fund, the excess deficit procedures - there is now a whole raft of fiscal measures. It is going towards a fiscal union and a banking union.

Absolutely. Are the Minister and his officials familiar with Reggie Middleton?

Deputy, please. I would like to draw the Minister's attention in my direction.

Does the name Reggie Middleton ring a bell?

If I could draw the Minister's attention this way, I would like to bring proceedings to a conclusion. I know the Minister is under severe pressure to get to a meeting with the troika. I appreciate the time he has given us. I know we are going into a different cycle next year because we will be out of the programme. As Chairman of this committee, it would be remiss of me not to reiterate, possibly in different tones, what Deputy Donnelly stated. I hope we would have a more elongated process with this next year but I appreciate the constraints under which the Minister has been operating this year. With that said, I thank the Minister and his officials for their very in-depth briefing and discussion in the time afforded us.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.10 p.m. until 4.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 8 May 2013.
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