Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 29 Apr 2003

Vol. 1 No. 15

Chilean Ambassador: Presentation.

The second item is the discussion with the Chilean ambassador on the association agreement between the European Union and Chile. It is a great pleasure to welcome the Chilean ambassador, His Excellency Alberto Yoacham, who has been invited to discuss his country's association agreement with the European Union. I also welcome Mr. José Fernandez and Mr. Frank Tressler.

Following more than two years of negotiations, a comprehensive association agreement between the European Union and Chile was formally signed at the General Affairs and External Relations Council meeting in November 2002. The agreement comprises three main chapters: political dialogue, co-operation and trade. Respect for democratic principles, human rights and the rule of law are essential elements of the agreement. The promotion of sustainable economic and social development and the equitable distribution of the benefits of the association agreement are guiding principles for its implementation. The agreement must be formally ratified by each European Union member state. It is expected that it will be laid before the Dáil in the coming days. The Minister for Foreign Affairs then plans to introduce the necessary motion inviting Dáil Éireann to ratify the terms of the agreement. As part of the ratification process, the agreement will be formally considered by this committee. It is hoped that the motion can be moved before the summer recess and, if that happens, that Ireland will be one of the first European Union member states to ratify the agreement. I invite the ambassador to make his presentation.

Mr. Alberto Yoacham

I thank the committee for extending its very kind invitation to me to speak about Chile, its relations with Ireland and, in particular, the recent signing in Brussels of a political and economic agreement between my country and the European Union.

Perhaps I might briefly describe Chile. The country has a population of slightly more than 15.5 million in a territory of 290,000 square miles, that is to say, it is about 50% bigger than France or Spain and twice as large as Germany. There is also the Chilean Antarctic zone. Chile is a very long country of 2,700 miles with an average width of only 110 miles. Geography has provided us with many formidable natural boundaries. In the north there are deserts, in the east the Andes mountain range, to the west the Pacific Ocean and to the south the Antarctic.

Our population has a literacy rate of 95.2% and an infant mortality rate of 9.12 deaths per 1000 live births. Although that might still sound high, if one considers that only 40 years ago the mortality figure was nearly 50, one will see that it is a great achievement. The population growth rate is 1.21%. The population living below the poverty line is 20%. Once again, that is too high and a major issue for governments to fight. In the last ten years, the population living below the poverty line has been reduced from 40%.

In Chile there are more than 4.6 million telephone lines in use, almost 6 million mobile cell phones, 3.5 million television sets and 3.1 million Internet users. Chile's purchasing power parity is $153 billion and GDP growth for 2002 was 2.1%. The inflation rate for that year was 3.5%, and unemployment in December 2002 stood at 7.9%. The GDP composition by growth is 8% for agriculture, 38% for industry and 54% for services. In the trade area, our total exports for 2002 were $18.5 billion and the main export commodities were copper and other minerals, 38%, fish, 4%, fruit and vegetables, 9%, paper and pulp, 7%, chemicals, 6%, and others, 36%.

Our main export partners are the United States, 17%, Japan, 14%, the UK, 6%, Brazil, 5% and China, 5%. If one considers the European Union as a whole, the figure is around 17%. Our main imports, totalling $18 billion for 2002, are consumer goods, chemicals, motor vehicles, fuel, electrical machinery, heavy industrial machinery and some foodstuffs. Regarding fuel, 93% of all fuel consumed in Chile is imported, so it is a big issue. Once again, our five main import partners are the United States, 19%, Argentina, 16%, Brazil, 7%, China, 6% and Japan, 4%. If one considers the European Union as a whole, the figure is around 17%.

As the committee is aware, we just recently opened an embassy in Dublin, previous to which we used to carry on our business from London. In doing this we had in mind several reasons, the first being our historical and cultural links going back to the late 18th century when one of the governors of Chile was an Irishman who became the most important figure in our history, our founding father, Bernardo O'Higgins. There are also some economic reasons such as the one the Chairman mentioned regarding the Chile-European Union agreement. Bilateral trade, although still small, has grown 83% during the years 1992-2002.

There are also political reasons. We share similar international positions on most of the international agenda. The objectives are to strengthen the economic links, create new links in trade and investment, make Chile the gateway for Irish products to South American markets, increase co-operation in culture, science and technology, strengthen the political agenda, both bilateral and multilateral, encourage visits from heads of state, government parliamentarians, Ministers, civil servants and business delegations and eventually open an embassy of Ireland in Chile.

In the document presented, there is a graphic that shows the bilateral trade between Chile and Ireland from 1998 to 2002. It is clear it has been growing continually. Our main exports to the Irish markets are beverages - wine in particular, and we are very happy that Ireland buys a lot of our wine - food and vegetables, gold, telecommunications and sound apparatus, crude fertiliser and minerals. From Ireland we import chemical materials, organic chemicals, medical and pharmaceutical products, professional scientific apparatus, computers, essential oils and perfumes.

There is another graphic in the document showing total trade, imports and exports, between Chile and the European Union and the comparison between some members of the European Union and Ireland. The graph runs from France, the main import and export partner, with a figure of $1.2 billion, down to Ireland with only $69 million for 2000.

This brings us to the association agreement. The European Union has become the first trade partner with total trade of almost $7.6 billion, compared to our second main trading partner, the United States, with $6.2 billion. Also, the European Union is the primary foreign investor in Chile. Up to October 2001, total investment by the European Union in Chile was almost $17.5 billion, compared to total US investment of almost $15 billion.

As the chairman said, the cornerstone of the association agreement is its political area. Although there are three closely linked areas, the political area is the essential foundation. Through this, Chile will enter into a bilateral relationship based on common principles and values, including respect and protection for human rights and the rule of law, protection of the environment and promotion of sustainable development. The inclusion of a democracy clause is particularly relevant. Just like the European Union, Chile has actively encouraged the inclusion of this clause in its agreements with those countries.

Another important feature is the political dialogue. This dialogue is to jointly promote, disseminate and develop the defence of democratic values, human rights, individual freedom and the rule of law, as foundation elements of a democratic society. The association agreement establishes a general framework for political dialogue and makes mention of the search for common positions at international fora and in contingent issues of foreign policy and international security, such as co-operation in the fight against terrorism. Political dialogue will be nurtured by regular meetings between heads of state and government, Ministers for Foreign Affairs, other Ministers, Members of Parliament and senior civil servants. The agreement also grants Chile a social country status which clearly represents a new sphere of action and will enable a strategic alliance to be forged not only in the economic and commercial domain, but also in the political field.

The second area of the agreement is the reinforcement of co-operation. Chile and the European Union signed co-operation agreements in 1990 and 1996 and many areas of co-operation covered by previous agreements have been extended and adapted under the new association agreement. There is consideration for economic co-operation. The central aim of it will be to encourage and strengthen the productive synergy of the two parties to create new opportunities for trade and investment and promote competitiveness. It will promote co-operation in science and technology and the information society, under which Chile will be able to participate directly in the sixth framework programme on science and technology for the creation of a common European research area.

The section on culture, education, audio-visual services co-operation and support for reform of the state and public administration seeks to promote future co-operation between any institution of the Chilean state and its counterparts in the European Union. The agreement also contains a special article on social co-operation, intended to orient future co-operation between the parties on social development and the fight against poverty. An entirely new article has been added on co-operation on gender issues, which seeks to incorporate the issue of respect for and promotion of women in co-operation programmes in general.

Also, there is consideration for the co-operational fight against drugs and illegal immigration and the promotion of work of non-governmental organisations. Other articles deal with regional co-operation and regional integration, seeking to define the efforts that can be made at South American level and particularly with Mercosur. A special article has been included on triangular and regional co-operation. This establishes a possible framework for co-operating in a third country in our region with the support of one or more European Union member states. Within the field of co-operation, the most noteworthy feature is the concept involving recognition by the European Union of Chile's status as an associate country, thus affording Chile access, on a case by case basis and in accordance with the regulations governing each programme, to programmes reserved exclusively for member states. The third and last area of the agreement relates to the economic and commercial ramifications.

This agreement is the most important and wide-ranging of its kind ever signed by Chile. Its importance is reflected in the volume of trade and in the breadth and diversity of the issues covered by the agreement. During the period 1996 to 2001, the European Union accounted for over 20% of Chile's total foreign trade, making the European Union Chile's most important trading partner, ahead of the United States, Japan and Latin America. I will not go into the details of the agreement, but will just mention some of the aspects covered by it.

The trade section of the agreement is divided into four main areas: trading goods; trading services and investment; public procurement, competition and intellectual property; and institutional provisions and rules. Custom relief was agreed from imports from each of the signatories. These measures will affect 99.7% of regional trade within a maximum period of ten years. Once the agreement comes in to full effect, tariffs will be immediately lifted on 85% of Chilean imports to the European Union and 92% of EU exports to Chile. After four years, tariffs will have been lifted on approximately 95% of all reciprocal trade.

There are also terms regulating the free trade programme such as rules of origin, customs procedures, technical standards and regulations, sanitary and phytosanitary aspects, overall safety and anti-dumping provisions.

With regard to trade in services and investments, special consideration is given to financial services and for the establishment of investment. There is regulation for the investment in goods production industries. The parties acknowledge the commitment of the bilateral agreements on promotion and protection of investment signed by Chile and the member states of the European Union. To date, Chile has entered agreements of this kind with 13 EU countries.

Public procurement competition and intellectual property, there are regulations for each aspect of this area. There are also institutional provisions and horizontal rules and the trade agreement contains general provisions regulating the operation of its constituent element. This includes provisions on taxation, payments and transfers, complex situations of balance of payments and transparency.

This is why we think it is good to do business with Chile. Apart from the fact that we have diversity of climates, resources and landscapes, we have inverted seasons with respect to the northern hemisphere. When it is winter here, we are in the middle of our food producing season.

We have an enormous potential to generate hydro-electricity, thus allowing the establishment of heavy industry. There are short distances to ports, the majority of which are modern and privatised. Chile's development is based on open markets. When one gets to the Chilean market, one is entering the market for most of Latin America. We have trade agreements with Canada, Korea and are in the final stages of agreement with the US. We have created a good network of communications to the rest of South America, establishing what is known as the bi-oceanic corridor.

Chile has sustained economic development for the past 15 years, is politically stable and can become a gateway for Irish products in Latin America. We have a high degree of economic freedom. According to the index of the Washington Heritage Foundation, Chile was placed 13th among 151 countries, ahead of Austria, Canada, Belgium, France, Germany, Japan and Denmark, among others. There is a very low level of corruption in Chile. Once again, the index estimated by Transparency International and Go1ttingen University places Chile 18th among 90 countries, one place below Germany and ahead of Spain, France, Belgium and Japan. There is a high transparency according to the opacity index by PricewaterhouseCoopers. Chile was placed second among 35 countries, only after Singapore. We are open to trade and the Emerging Market Access Index created by the Tuck School of Business at Darthmouth University places Chile second after Singapore and ahead of Hong Kong, Taiwan, Hungary, Israel and South Africa.

The political and co-operation areas of this agreement are now under the process of approval by the parliaments of the member states of the European Union. Most of the trade area is already in force since approval last February. For Chile, this is of the utmost importance, not only from an economic point of view but also for its social and labour impact and, I stress, its political relevance. It means a qualitative change for Chile in its relations with Europe. It can serve as a showcase for the rest of Latin America in regard to what they can expect in the future in relations with Europe. The timing for the approval of this agreement is the best we could hope for. Ireland's EU Presidency next year will coincide with the summit between Latin America and Europe in May 2004. In July of this year, President Lagos is coming on a State visit to Ireland, the first ever by a Chilean Head of State.

Once again, Chairman, I thank you for your invitation and your patience. If members have any questions or would like me to forward any additional material, I would be more than pleased to do so.

Thank you ambassador for a very thorough explanation. It has been very valuable and revealing to all of us. I notice Chile will have to harmonise with EU measures on wine production. Are there any disadvantages for us in that, because we are very fond of Chilean wines?

Mr. Yoacham

On the contrary, Chairman. The only disadvantage is for us because we have to harmonise the rule of origins, for instance. We cannot use the word champagne in regard to wine that is less than five to seven years old. Neither can we use Bordeaux or names like that, as we did in the past.

Well, I am a man of the people so it is the ordinary house wines I am talking about and the great range that has been brought to Ireland from Chile.

I welcome the ambassador and his colleagues to the committee. I had the opportunity, together with some of my colleagues, of meeting with the ambassador earlier this month. We talked about the Association Agreement and had the pleasurable experience of visiting Chile for the IPU conference. It is a country of stunning beauty. I can see that one of its attractions is as a tourist destination. The ambassador said prior to our leaving that we could expect cool temperatures but they ranged up to 31 degrees at several stages while we were there.

Chile has a very impressive infrastructure. For a country that is as long as North America is wide, it has a phenomenal road network of a very high standard. In our discussions with our parliamentary colleagues from Chile - we met a number of them, including the speaker of the Chilean Senate, Mrs. Allende - we were impressed by the huge investment in infrastructure and by the very modern metro system in Santiago. We were quite stunned to see how a train could be unloaded and loaded in 13 seconds. It was the simplest and most straightforward underground system any of us had ever seen. The Chilean rail system is highly efficient and the long haul coach service is as good as rail travel.

We saw at first hand the joint venture investments that exist between the North American part of the continent in the wine industry, particularly from the Napa Valley area. We saw the joint ventures with Norway in the fishing industry and the quality of Chilean fish is at least as good as our own. Their smoked salmon probably surpasses ours.

Did the Deputy sample any caviar while he was there?

I have never sampled Irish oysters. I did not mention the quality of their wine but I do not believe they need to harmonise to EU standards.

Maybe they should establish the headquarters of the IPU in Chile.

If the EU raised its wine standards to those of Chile, it might be a better way forward. We saw also that there is some - not a huge amount - of Irish investment in Chile. We met people from Grafton Recruitment who were working out there. We also met other consultants. I want to pay tribute, and I am sure my colleagues will join with me, to Ambassador Paula Slattery. She was with us there and set up a number of useful meetings. I also pay tribute to the members of the Irish missionary community, particularly the Colomban orders, priests and nuns, who are working there. We saw at first hand the work they are doing to reduce poverty and engage in positive action in Valparaiso and in Santiago. As the ambassador said, President Lagos will visit Ireland on 10 July and I look forward to his visit. From what we could see, the political situation in Chile has improved dramatically. We had an opportunity to discuss previous regimes and the current regime with a wide variety of political opinion there and, formally and informally, we formed the view that Chile has forged ahead in establishing a democratic system.

I am anxious that this committee supports the association agreement with Chile. I would like the ambassador to discuss how he sees Ireland benefiting from it. I believe that economic systems can learn from each other. As I said earlier, Ireland has a good deal to learn about the issue of infrastructure. In Santiago alone there must be several thousand buses which appear to carry millions of passengers on dedicated bus corridors. This is something from which we could all learn.

I support the association agreement, but a final point I wish to make has nothing to do with it. Perhaps the committee would find it possible to lend its weight to an offer from the people of Chile to have a replica of a statue from Easter Island presented to this country. It would be appropriate to accept it on the occasion of the visit of President Lagos. I have some photographs of the statues on Easter Island and I have a location in mind where it might be appropriate to place it. I would locate it where Deputy Gregory might be able to look at it across the bay - on a clear day one can see across to Sandymount. I will leave it at that except to reiterate that I strongly support Ireland's ratification of this association agreement.

Having heard about the lavish lifestyle, I think the European Union should be joining Chile. I welcome the ambassador. I too had an opportunity to meet him and to discuss bilateral issues. I am also happy to support this co-operation agreement.

Could the ambassador say something about the current state of democracy in Chile? I note the question of democracy is part of the co-operation agreement. In particular, what are the implications of the Pinochet constitution for continued democracy in Chile? The ambassador mentioned in his report that he wants Chile to become the gateway to the region. How does Chile propose to bring that about? What steps is it taking to achieve that objective?

I note that Chile's biggest trading partner in the European Union is the United Kingdom at 6%, compared to 17% for the United States. The other trading partners are: Japan, 14% , Brazil, 5%, and China, 5%. The EU is the first foreign investor in Chile, far ahead of the United States. In terms of EU investment in Chile, does the ambassador see trade relations with the EU taking on a status comparable to the rate of investment by the EU in Chile?

I also welcome the ambassador. I welcomed the opportunity to meet him before this afternoon and I look forward to meeting him again. I support the early ratification of the association agreement and I hope that it will pass through the Oireachtas without too much delay.

I want to take up one or two important points relating to some questions that have been put already. It would be very wrong to see Chile as having recovered or deepened democracy. Chile was one of the oldest democracies in the world - in fact, democracy was interrupted by General Pinochet in his dictatorship. In the constitution of Chile, Bernardo O'Higgins recognised relationships outside marriage. He granted rights and many of the principles of the French Revolution were transmitted to the constitution, which was an historical exemplar.

I went to Chile in 1988 as an observer of the process when General Pinochet attempted to install himself and his dictatorship for a longer period. The manner in which he has been able to evade being confronted with his crimes, even to the extent of acknowledging them, is an appalling international indictment of him and all those who assisted him. It is interesting that his friends in Europe were Mrs. Thatcher and the lower grade Thatcherites who survived in government after her. They insisted on mounting pressure to have him removed from being properly prosecuted in London and going back home to Chile. There is an immense Chilean opinion, which I respect, that the Chilean people should try General Pinochet and deal with his punishment, but he gave himself a dramatic amnesty and the later truth commission did not identify anything. I am thinking of President Patricio Alwyn's commission. My memory of 1988, apart from the wonderful marches, is that together with the penguins and the bishop, I observed the plebiscite in Punta Arenas in the south and it was much colder than Deputy Carey describes. The reality of the situation was that millions of people wanted to see an end to the dictatorship.

Let me call a spade a spade because it is relevant to what I have heard and read in the briefing note from our Department of Foreign Affairs. While people were able to identify the tyrant General Pinochet in a poster, standing behind him was something that they were not so easily able to dislodge and that is the Chicago School of Economics. In Santiago and elsewhere this has wrecked the public sector to some extent and reduced income. While we may hear a story of competitiveness measured in relation to GDP, or GDP divided by the population, and I accept that there has been a reduction in absolute poverty, I have no doubt whatsoever that the single biggest wrecking agent in Latin America is the Chicago School of Economics. My hope that this agreement will go through the Oireachtas does not represent the slightest change in that view.

I put it to the ambassador that the school was not chosen by the Chilean people. It was imposed on them under a dictatorship. This is a great sadness for me and one I would have no difficulty conveying to President Ricardo Lagos if I met him. While I congratulate him on his election as president and I was delighted to be with him as part of the movement that was involved in the plebiscite, I was very much disappointed that the grip of the Chicago school on Chile has not been loosened.

To give an impression of the atmosphere at the time, there was only one bishop in the whole of Chile who was willing to come out in the open and oppose the dictatorship. The leaders of the Catholic Church in Chile were, to a large extent, hand in glove with the dictatorship. It is very important to realise what institutional forces were combined against the Chilean people when they overthrew their dictatorship. I am delighted there is a statue in honour of Bernardo Higgins in the park in Merrion Square. I would like us to pay him a great deal more attention, not just as a military man but regarding the ideas that motivated him and his father.

Chile is a sophisticated and important country with a long tradition of democracy, but it is important that we recognise its history and contribution. It is not a Latin American country that is developing or seeking to develop trade. It has made one of the most sophisticated sets of political choices along the right, the centre and the left. These are not impediments to political formations. It is not about creating governments but about people from outside coming in, particularly the United States, which ten years ago decided to arrange for the overthrow of a democratically elected government. Since then, all those who have supported the surviving Viejo sitting there now, able to go to mass but unable to go to court, have been of the extreme right.

Like other members, I welcome the ambassador. I had the happy experience of meeting him and his staff earlier, and we had a very good discussion. I have never been to Chile and probably never will visit the country, but I enjoyed Deputy Carey's lyrical account of his visit. It seems to have been all blue skies and warm feelings and we benefited from hearing his description. Equally, it was very interesting to listen to Deputy Michael D. Higgins when he recalled his 1988 visit. Clearly, the feelings he absorbed and what he saw and heard are borne out in the excellent document that we received from the Department of Foreign Affairs with the details of this meeting. It makes for sober reading.

It is very good for us to know how Chile evolved through what were clearly very difficult and turbulent times; it was not so long ago that disastrous events occurred in the country. Sometimes when one receives documents dating back a century one feels they have no relevance, but the accounts in question here refer to modern times. The advances made since the introduction of true democracy are therefore very significant. I recall when President Mary Robinson went on a state visit to Chile in the mid-1990s and what would almost have amounted to a diplomatic incident was averted. The return visit by the Chilean President to us will also be highly significant.

I want to ask a question on commerce. The ambassador spoke about the excellent state of trade and relationships with the various countries in Europe, as well as the United States. Does he see scope for Ireland in those arrangements? Where does he see potential for increased trade relations and imports and exports between Chile and Ireland? What is the present position and where is development envisaged?

Deputy Mitchell asked about the current state of democracy in Chile. Perhaps we should know this information, but I am not ashamed to say that I do not. How many political parties are in government in Chile? What is the state of the government vis-à-vis the opposition? What is the status of women in the two Houses of Parliament? Those kinds of ordinary questions might seem naive on my part surrounded as I am by people who have been all over the world. I have not, but I would like to know that sort of prosaic information.

I welcome the ambassador and wish him well in his tenure here. It is obviously an important time for his country with the impending visit of the Chilean President.

I have examined the figures on the breakdown of trade. The impression I received is probably wrong as only the five main trading partners have been cited. What is the level of trade with neighbouring countries in South America? Ireland traditionally relied on the UK market until we entered the European Union. We have since managed to expand our trade throughout the rest of the European Union and elsewhere. As Chile is increasingly a trading nation, I suggest that it should be a gateway for the rest of South America, but the indicators are that it has a higher level of trade with non-South American countries. Has that historically been the case or is it merely a false impression gained from the figures provided?

I do not want to go into the detail of the matter as Deputy Michael D. Higgins has articulated the view very well, but I too find it totally unacceptable that a murdering dictator such as Pinochet should be allowed to operate because he appointed himself a senator under his own constitution in order that he can continue to enjoy immunity from prosecution. I do not want to single out the Chilean establishment as I also found it unacceptable that the Vatican called for his release when he was in the United Kingdom. I wrote to the Vatican to express my own opposition to an appalling dereliction on its part regarding a man from whose actions Chilean society is still reeling, with many families still feeling the full impact of that disastrous period in Chile's history. I would be interested to know what the feeling is in Chile regarding Pinochet and whether there is any possibility that he will be brought to justice for the crimes he committed against his own people.

Perhaps the ambassador would like to reply, although not necessarily to every detail.

Mr. Yoacham

A great variety of concerns were expressed and I would be happy to provide more detail.

Senator Carey mentioned the return to democracy. Deputy Higgins visited Chile in 1988. In that year, there was a referendum in which General Pinochet lost, and democracy returned fully in 1990. Since March of that year, there have been three Governments formed by the same coalition of four political parties - the Christian Democrats, the Socialists, the Partido por la Democracia and the Social Democrats. The main party is the Christian Democrats. Two opposition parties have parliamentary representation, although there is also a seventh party, the Communist Party, without any elected members. The opposition parties are the Partido de la Renovación Nacional and the Partido Unión Demócrata Independiente.

Democracy works with government and opposition and there is no problem with that. We are governed by a constitution which we inherited from Pinochet, but when he lost the referendum in October 1988, that constitution was profoundly reformed as those political parties that won the referendum and defeated Pinochet wanted to introduce changes to make it more democratic. That was achieved - not 100% - but a great deal was achieved, and many reforms were introduced through that constitution under which Chile has been ruled since 1990.

Some pockets of what we consider remnants of the dictatorship remain. One of them is the designated senators, although there is general agreement now that this will end. In March 2006 these senators will be eliminated. A discussion is ongoing on how these will be replaced. What will be the constituencies? The institution of designated senators will no longer occur.

Senator Mooney mentioned that Pinochet was a senator. Pinochet was brought to justice after he left London. There is consensus at least among the political parties in the Chilean Government today and for the last 12 years, that Pinochet should have stood trial and should have paid heavily for what was his government. However, we must be mindful of realpolitik. Pinochet represented about 40% or 45% of the population in Chile and one could not just say "we are going to get rid of him", there are many political factors to be considered. Committee members are politicians, I am a diplomat. It is not as easy to act as to speak. Following Pinochet's return from England he was prosecuted but the court decided not to proceed with his case because he was not competent to face judgment due to his health and age. That is the reason the tribunal did not continue with his case. However, he was removed from the senate and is no longer a senator. Of course many medical examinations were undertaken to reach this conclusion, but Pinochet himself, a former general of the Chilean army, no longer exists as a political factor. He is an old man now, almost 86, and he is sick. I do not know if he is at his home but, to put it colloquially, nobody really cares.

Deputy Mitchell asked how we could make Chile a gateway for Irish products. First, we believe there is a lot of potential for many Irish products. Ireland has developed a very important and sophisticated high-tech industry in many areas such as communications and computers and there is a big market for these, not only in Chile, but in Latin America. That is where Chile can become a gateway for Ireland. We have created - as I mentioned in my paper - a network of treaties with all Latin America. We are associate members of MERCOSUR, which means that our products, products that are manufactured in Chile or assembled in Chile, can be sold in MERCOSUR duty-free. They can also go duty-free to Mexico because we have an agreement too, or they can go to Canada or all of Central America and most other Latin American countries such as Venezuela, Colombia, Peru, Bolivia. That is what we mean when we say Chile can be a gateway for Ireland; if Ireland goes through another country, duties are payable but if it goes to Chile, they are not. I do not know if that sufficiently explains matters.

Chile is also a very good destination for Irish investors in high-tech industries and also in the food processing industry. Ireland has a very advanced food processing industry and companies in Ireland that have a worldwide reputation and know-how would be more than welcome in Chile. Chile is a big producer of foodstuffs and we require elements to support that.

The UK was mentioned. The 6% figure shown is only for exports to the UK, it is not for Chile's entire trade with European countries.

The question I asked was, given the level of EU investment in Chile, which is now ahead of investment in the US, could we anticipate that the trade with the European Union would possibly increase?

Mr. Yoacham

That is one of the things we hope to do. One of the main economic aspects of the agreement for us is precisely to attract investment. We are sure that European investment would increase significantly. When one looks at the figures for European investment in Chile, they are somewhat distorted because most of the investment comes from Spain. UK investment levels are not as high as they should be, nor are German investment levels. French and Italian investment levels are high and Ireland's investment is new. Potential exists to attract further investment. One of the advantages of having this association agreement is that it gives us a mark of good economic and political behaviour that we can show the rest of the world. This agreement is very special because, in the words of Mr. Lamy, it is the most important and advanced agreement of its kind ever signed by the European Union with a country outside the European Union. It is almost an agreement for membership of the European Union, without of course being a member. It is of tremendous relevance to us.

Deputy Higgins made a reference to interruptions to democracy. I thank him for his recollections and for saying that Chile had one of the oldest democracies in the world, a fact of which we are extremely proud. We considered the Pinochet years a very sad interruption to our process, something that never should have happened. This year marks the 30th anniversary of the military coup of 11 September 1973, and I would say that today, most political parties are in the process of reaching a point of saying "This was a sad moment in our history, but we cannot live in the past and must look to the future", without forgetting what happened.

I also thank Deputy Carey for his very kind words. He made a fantastic presentation about Chile. I do not know if I omitted anything but, if I did, I would appreciate very much if members would remind me.

Thank you.

On the indigenous Chilean population, which was approximately half a million, when you arrived there from Spain, what position do they hold in Chilean society? Regarding the people who are missing, what efforts have been made to locate the thousands murdered under Pinochet's regime?

Mr. Yoacham

Approximately 4.5% of Chile's population is considered to be indigenous. The most recent census in April last year asked the specific question: "Do you think you are part of an indigenous population?", and 4.5%, almost one million people, answered that question in the sense that they felt they belonged to a particular group. Basically, at least half of those million people are what we call Mapuches - that is the largest group - and the other groups include Ayamaras, Quechuas, Easter Island, the numbers of which are small. Traditionally, the indigenous population was very much segregated. The indigenous population is basically located in the central southern part of Chile. They live in reservations in very poor conditions and lack education and basic health systems. The very serious problems faced in the past 12 years have not been resolved. Although health conditions and education have greatly improved, there is still a major issue concerning the tenancy of land. Centuries ago the land was taken away from these people. In recent years, some movements among the indigenous population have resulted in claims on land. This is something that is being studied very seriously by the Chilean Government. We are optimistic that the issue will be resolved in the future.

Concerning the disappeared - the political disappeared is what the Deputy meant - the first government of the present coalition during President Aylwn's tenure from 1991 to 1994 created a truth and reconciliation commission. It was established in order to determine the numbers of the disappeared. There was much speculation with numbers fluctuating from high to low. According to this commission, which comprised well-respected politicians from all walks of life, the number was 3,200. There was no clue as to what happened to them. In the past 12 years, the Chilean judiciary has been investigating the whereabouts of these people. Many have been found. Of course, there remains a large number about whom we know nothing.

Found dead, I suppose.

Mr. Yoacham

Yes, found dead. None has been found alive or living in some other country. The people who have been found were dead. The graves have been identified positively as belonging to certain people. A large number remains unaccounted for. The whereabouts of some 2,000 people are a mystery. Of course, this is a tremendous pain for families and relatives who still ask what happened to their fathers, sons, brothers and sisters.

Is a scheme of compensation for the relatives of those disappeared being contemplated?

Mr. Yoacham

Not by the Chilean State; the tribunals have determined compensation in several cases. They consider whether there are grounds for compensation on a case by case basis.

Who will pay it?

Mr. Yoacham

The Chilean State. It has not created a fund for compensation. It is a matter of examining each case separately.

I have one brief comment. On page 14, I note the total trade imports and exports of other EU members compared with Ireland, which is down at €69 million. If one goes by head of population, the UK figure is based on 17 per head of population, Ireland's is 17 per head of population, Germany is 14.1 per head of population and so on. Judging by head of population, Ireland is not doing too badly. However, there is great scope for increase in trade between Ireland and Chile.

Mr. Yoacham

The Chairman is absolutely right. If one considers the figures by head of population, the Irish income per capita is almost twice that of the Spanish.

There is scope for development. We hope the ambassador will remember the role of the Irish in the development of Chile, as Deputy Michael D. Higgins has mentioned. Did Deputy Higgins take Bernard as a second name?

No, I did not.

Bernard is my third name. I could perhaps transfer it to Deputy Higgins.

The newspapers in Chile heralded my arrival with the headline "El Retorno de O' Higgins".

We look forward to examining the EU-Chile agreement when it comes before the joint committee. As the ambassador has seen, there is strong support here for the agreement and we certainly will treat it as a matter of urgency. I thank the ambassador for his presentation and I thank his officials, Mr. Fernandez and Mr. Tressler, for their input. It certainly has been very thorough and will be very helpful to us in our deliberations and considerations of the agreement when it comes before us. I wish the ambassador well on his posting here to Dublin. The joint committee is delighted that Chile has established a resident post in Ireland. We know that the friendly relations that have long existed between Ireland and Chile will continue in to the future and be enhanced greatly by the ambassador's presence here. Thank you again for attending today and we will certainly expedite the agreement as much as we can.

Sitting suspended at 3.35 p.m. and resumed at 3.40 p.m.
Barr
Roinn