JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Human Rights) díospóireacht -
Thursday, 20 Oct 2005

Irish Prisoners Abroad: Ministerial Presentation.

Chairman

We move on to No. 3. We were originally scheduled to meet with the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, on the issue of Irish prisoners overseas. Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond his control, the Minister cannot be with us. Therefore, I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Treacy.

In recent months, this committee has investigated and debated the matter of Irish prisoners overseas, issues arising for them, the problems they face and the response or, sometimes, lack of response from the Department of Foreign Affairs or the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I invite the Minister of State to comment on the situation. Committee members will then pose questions.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs (Deputy Treacy)

I apologise on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, who is attending a series of meetings today, including the National Forum on Europe which commences shortly.

I am delighted to be afforded the opportunity to speak to the Sub-Committee on Human Rights of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs on the issue of Irish prisoners abroad. As committee members are aware, successive Governments have placed the welfare of citizens imprisoned overseas high on the priority list. It is fair to say that, as a country, we have a good record in this regard.

The Government has devoted considerable resources to supporting the Irish diaspora. We established the Irish abroad unit within the Department of Foreign Affairs. Government expenditure on emigrants has increased from a figure of €5.062 million in 2004 to €8.273 million in 2005, an increase of 63%. This is also true in the case of prisoners overseas.

We increased the level of support for the Irish Commission for Prisoners Overseas, ICPO, from €162,000 in 2004 to €213,444 in 2005. In this regard, I pay tribute to the activities of the ICPO and its chairman, Bishop Séamus Hegarty of Derry, and its co-ordinator, Fr. Alan Hilliard. I warmly welcome Fr. Hilliard, Fr. Gerry McFlynn, Ms Gráinne Prior and their colleagues from the ICPO. Both the Maynooth and London offices are represented. We thank them for their presence and the outstanding work they do on behalf of our fellow citizens in various parts of the world. The ICPO has undertaken tremendous work which is reflected in the extremely large increase in funding for their work which has been provided by the Government.

The Department of Foreign Affairs understands the number of Irish prisoners abroad amounts to more than 1,000. The number constantly changes as some are released and others are newly detained. For these reasons, it is not possible to be fully precise on how many Irish citizens are imprisoned abroad.

Little detailed information is available on the profile of Irish prisoners abroad. The crimes for which they are in prison are varied and range from minor to serious such as drug offences and murder. Some are vulnerable persons who emigrate in an attempt to escape their problems, but they find that they cannot cope with life abroad and end up in prison. Others who may not be classified as vulnerable are imprisoned after being charged with, or convicted of, crimes committed while on holiday or temporarily resident in foreign countries. Others have engaged in more serious crimes.

Under the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, it is the right of every Irish citizen who is arrested or imprisoned abroad to seek consular assistance from the Department of Foreign Affairs. However, not all Irish citizens who are arrested or imprisoned avail of this right. On my behalf and that of my colleagues at ministerial and parliamentary level, I sincerely thank all of our consular staff throughout the world, with our ambassadors and diplomatic staff, for the outstanding work they do 24 hours a day, seven days a week, on behalf of all of our citizens, imprisoned or otherwise.

In the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness the Government agreed to carry out a research project to identify the number of Irish prisoners abroad and their need for services in prison. It held off commissioning a study pending receipt of the report of the task force on policy regarding emigrants which noted that in some cases Irish prisoners may have special needs that do not arise in the case of other emigrants. I understand that, following discussions with the Irish Commission for Prisoners Overseas, it was agreed that the focus of the study should be on Irish prisoners in Britain, given that is where the vast majority of Irish prisoners are located. The draft terms of reference for the study have been drawn up and I am pleased to inform the committee that the Minister for Foreign Affairs has appointed Mr. Chris Flood, a former Minister of State, to undertake the study on our behalf.

The main focus of the study will be to establish the numbers of Irish prisoners abroad, the countries in which they are held, the offences for which they have been charged or convicted, and the duration of sentences. It will indicate the number of prisoners held in countries which are not party to the Strasbourg Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons. It is intended that it will identify the special needs of Irish prisoners in Britain, with particular reference to general health issues, social issues, specific problems of marginalised groups such as psychiatric patients, those serving life sentences and Travellers. It will offer advice on whether they have specific problems, compared to other nationalities in British prisons. It is also intended that it will review the services provided for Irish prisoners by the Government and other social agencies, and make recommendations on how these services might be improved, taking into account the level of services provided by other EU countries for their nationals imprisoned overseas. It is envisaged that the study should present a brief overview of current global trends on prison standards, the protection of human rights of prisoners and identify international agreements which have a bearing on the treatment of prisoners. The needs of the families of overseas prisoners will also be considered.

I look forward to completion of the study and I am sure members of the committee will join me in recognising that it represents a significant step in advancing the needs of prisoners abroad. I reiterate our deep commitment to the welfare of prisoners overseas. In doing so it is important to have full regard to the feelings and experiences of victims of crime. Their sensitivities must also be factored in in any future arrangements to ensure all our efforts and decisions are always motivated by balance, equity and fairness.

Deputy M. Higgins

I welcome the Minister of State and his officials and join him in welcoming the ICPO. I agree with the tributes paid to Bishop Séamus Hegarty and Fr. Alan Hilliard and to those present who assist and work with them.

I wish to make some points that might be of interest. I was a member of the McBride commission on prisoners many years ago. The Minister of State has the advantage of also holding that position at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, but that is not why he is here today. He is here as Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs. I have always been outraged at the manner in which prisoners have been neglected. After the McBride commission had reported, we were referred to as a self-appointed commission by one of the Minister of State's illustrious predecessors. Our report was succeeded by the Whitaker report and preceded by the Larkin report in the 1930s.

A society is rightly judged by the way in which it treats its prisoners. I regard the pace of reform as extraordinarily slow. I should declare an interest as I lectured in the sociology of deviant behaviour in law for more than 20 years. When I examined prison systems throughout Europe and beyond, the final change to be made in prison reform was to the morning slopping out procedure. This was mainly because prison is about the absence of discretion in time, movement and one's body. Even in advanced Scandinavian systems the last change to be made was to this ritual procedure which is really an action of degradation of prisoners.

An absolute shift in thinking about the concept of prison is required. To remove discretion from people is serious and when a Government does so, it is extremely serious. For that reason, I welcome the decision of the European Court of Human Rights on prisoners in the Hirst case. The idea that the figure of 48,000 people in prison in Britain was a casual number and made no difference was rightly judged to be an abuse of Article 3 of Protocol 1 of the convention. I hope we will seriously examine this issue. The court correctly stated the matter was not about the inconvenience of exercising a vote, but that domestic courts simply did not have the right to interfere with what was a parliamentary decision in the first instance and, more importantly, a basic human right to participate.

At the end of the 1960s the Institute of Criminology, Cambridge, carried out studies of Irish prisoners in British prisons. A distinction should be drawn between two fundamental categories, that is, prisoners in prison for the third, fourth or even fifth time, with a high degree of recidivism, and those in prison for the first time. The causal factors are different with regard to these categories. I do not wish to lecture those who know the contemporary situation much better than I, but among those who studied Irish prisoners was Professor Kevin Boyle who was very interesting on the matter.

It is important that the Irish abroad unit has been established in the Department of Foreign Affairs and I hope the number of staff in the unit will be massively increased. I pay tribute to those staff in the Department who are responsible for the consular service which is regarded as a back-breaking, gulag-type service, through which one must put oneself in the hope of the most minimal of preferment. I have encountered many people who have benefited from the service. An interesting case is under way in the United States whereby some countries have gone to the Supreme Court regarding the detention of their subjects who were not accorded consular rights. In fact, there are some individuals on death row whose appeal rests on the failure to alert the defendants to their consular rights. It is one of the worst aspects of the obscenity which is Guantanamo that the persons detained there are accorded absolutely no rights and are, effectively, in a black hole vis-a-vis international law.

I hope the study to be undertaken by Mr. Chris Flood will look at the different categories in prison. It should also examine the social setting from which people come, as well as that into which they are released. It should examine the places where our own prison system arrangements are out of kilter with those in Britain. For example, we do not have the same system on the remission of sentences. Effectively, if an English person is sentenced in an Irish court, detained in an Irish prison and asks to be transferred back to Britain, he or she may be released up to one year earlier, due to overcrowded conditions in either prison system or perhaps to differences in evaluation of prisoner behaviour and so forth. This issue is worth examining further.

I hope the study will also provide more information on the impact of imprisonment on families, the implications for visiting rights, the possibilities for re-entering the social setting and the damaged or restored employment rights. I suggest it should not simply be statistical, using the two categories mentioned. It would be very valuable to have a longitudinal study of some of the places where there is a high degree of recidivism to ascertain whether people are facing the same circumstances, unamended, again and again or whether there is a qualitative difference over time.

Chairman

Deputy Michael D. Higgins has given us a taste of his knowledge of the prisoner issue on a worldwide level. However, we are here to concentrate on Irish prisoners overseas and, in that context, perhaps the Minister of State will focus in his response on Deputy Michael D. Higgins's points regarding the study that has been commissioned. During a presentation in June one of the issues highlighted by the Irish Commission for Prisoners Overseas was the need for the study to begin as soon as possible. Deputy Carey wishes to speak before the Minister of State responds.

Deputy Carey

Like the Chairman and Deputy Michael D. Higgins, I welcome the Minister of State and his officials and compliment them on the Trojan work they are doing in the Department. I also welcome the representatives from the Irish Commission for Prisoners Overseas who are in the Visitors Gallery and thank them for their help and advice on various issues.

I was a guest at a meeting of the Federation of Irish Societies in Westminster two days ago where I met some people, including members of the Irish chaplaincy, who are dealing with prisoners and issues surrounding them. Several issues need to be addressed, one of which is the apparent high incidence of male suicide in certain prisons, about which there is alarm among those dealing with the welfare of prisoners.

Another linked issue is that the prisoners incarcerated in British prisons are increasingly vulnerable and appear to be coming from vulnerable sections of Irish society. In this context, my attention was drawn to Irish Travellers, in particular, who have great difficulty in coping with prison regimes. Anecdotal reports suggest there is a higher incidence of suicide among such prisoners than among others. Perhaps this issue could be examined in the study to be undertaken by Mr. Chris Flood.

Repatriation is another issue of concern. I am not an expert but I have a number of cases in my files relating to repatriation. The repatriation process is obscure for the vast majority of lay people, including me. The families of prisoners with whom I am dealing find the process exasperating and frustrating because they find it very difficult to get information. They find that they must come to people like me and Deputy Michael D. Higgins to advocate on behalf of their relatives. That is a matter that deserves attention. Is it possible, allowing for the sensitivities of each case, the nature of repatriation and the sensitivities of victims, to examine the system as it currently operates? I had the privilege of meeting in Derry recently Bishop Hegarty who has also expressed concern for vulnerable groups.

I am also very concerned about prisoners in Central and South American prisons. I thank and compliment the two officials who are with the Minister today for the help they have given to me and a number of others in this regard. I pay tribute to a number of priests and religious sisters for the work they are doing, particularly in Equador. I understand Equador has ratified the Strasburg Convention which will take effect on 1 November this year. Is it envisaged that the repatriation process for Irish prisoners in Ecuador and other South American countries which may have ratified the Strasbourg agreement will be lengthy? I recognise consular officials in Ecuador are working hard to expedite particular cases. How long will the process take and will it lead to the same type of repatriation arrangements obtaining in British prisons? Are there questions with regard to deciding on similar sentences for crimes and how remaining sentences may be served? On prisoners who may be regarded as innocent, what will their status be if and when they are repatriated?

I pay tribute to the Minister of State's officials, the Irish Commission for Prisoners Overseas and the many lay people and religious who give of their time to look after the welfare of vulnerable and isolated people far away from home.

Chairman

I support everything my colleagues have said and welcome the commissioning of the study. However, I hope we will not have to await its completion and recommendations before action is taken on the issues referred to by my colleagues this morning and at our meeting in June.

An issue in terms of the ethnicity of Irish prisoners in Britain was highlighted at our meeting in June by representatives of the commission. Senator Finucane noted the circumstances and difficulties faced by members of the Traveller community in prison in Britain. We should be able to make progress on this issue because we are aware of the problems concerned. Does the Minister of State have an opinion on the matter?

On the question of repatriation, one of the representatives who attended the meeting in June advised that, with regard to Irish prisoners serving sentences in British jails shorter than four years, it was not worthwhile seeking repatriation because by the time the application was processed, the prisoner was out of jail and as such, he did not want to give false hopes. This was contrasted with the apparently greater progress made and flexibility on our side in that we were able to process repatriation applications much more speedily than the British authorities. We do not need the results of any study to recognise that problem. It is a question of how much political pressure can we exert to make progress on the issue. I ask the Minister of State for his views on the matter.

I support the establishment of the study. From my knowledge of the former Minister of State, Mr. Flood, I know that he will work diligently on the issue and demonstrate the same courage he showed on the issue of support for the Traveller community. However, we cannot await its recommendations as we need immediate action on the issues of repatriation and the circumstances encountered by certain Irish prisoners in Britain with regard to racism.

Deputy Treacy

I thank members for their contributions, admire the obvious interest they take in this matter and endorse the expressions of gratitude to various individuals and organisations at departmental and consular level and the ICOP for the tremendous work carried out.

The study we have established has three objectives: to identify the numbers of Irish prisoners abroad and the countries in which they are held; to examine the needs of Irish prisoners overseas; and, based on this identification and estimation, to make recommendations for the future provision of services for overseas prisoners, taking into account the services available in comparable countries. The study will seek to establish the number of Irish prisoners abroad, the countries in which they are being held, the offences for which they have been charged or convicted and the duration of their sentences. In particular, it should indicate the number being held in countries which are not party to the Strasbourg Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Prisoners. A brief overview will be presented of current global trends with regard to acceptable prison standards and the human rights of prisoners. A survey will be carried out of services provided by EU and other comparable countries for their nationals in prison abroad. International agreements which have a bearing on the treatment of prisoners will be identified.

From this information, a needs estimate will be compiled based on current international standards of practice. This estimate will examine the services which overseas prisoners might reasonably expect, including access to consular and legal aid at the time of first attention and during trial, prison visits, opportunities to speak English and avail of medical and dental treatment, legal and consular representation, the opportunity to practice one's religion or religious beliefs and the ability to obtain sufficient nourishing food and clothes appropriate to the climate. The issue of services for overseas prisoners on release and, in particular, subsequent deportation to Ireland will also require attention. The needs of families of overseas prisoners should be considered. The study will make recommendations on how services for Irish prisoners abroad and their families should best be provided.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins raised the situation obtaining in the United States. The European Union in its consultations with the United States annually raises the issue of ensuring foreigners detained in US prisons are advised of their right to consular assistance. The transfer of prisoners to this jurisdiction is a matter for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I read about the various cases raised by members and I am aware of the dedication they bring to these cases and the responses by departmental and consular officials, as well as the ICOP. Deputy Carey, in particular, has been involved in a large number of cases.

Ecuador acceded to the Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons on 12 July and pursuant to Article 19.2 of the convention, it will enter force on 1 November. Individuals imprisoned there may then apply to be transferred to this country to serve the remainder of their sentences and inform the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform of this. While I am grateful to Deputy Michael D. Higgins for giving me additional responsibilities, my sentence in that Department was completed in 1991. I have since been transferred to the Departments of the Taoiseach and Foreign Affairs. We are in constant communication with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform on particular cases and the wishes of the people involved to transfer to Ireland. The Department is dealing with a number of authorities, including those in Ecuador.

The Chairman raised the question of the treatment of Irish prisoners in terms of their ethnicity. This issue, to which I referred in my opening address, will receive consideration, in particular as it pertains to Travellers who face particular difficulties when detained in environments not comparable to their own. That compounds their situation.

This committee, ICPO and the study will focus on this issue. The departmental team will make all information available, including anecdotal, historical and documentary evidence, to ensure the final report in a focussed, clear and systematic way will pinpoint the way forward to the humane treatment of our own people. The Department of Foreign Affairs is committed to achieving that and we are confident that we will achieve it. We are confident that our former colleague, Mr. Chris Flood, will bring his special skills to the situations and he has our full support. We look forward to the report.

Deputy M. Higgins

Interventions to improve the lot of Irish prisoners abroad should continue in the interim and be enhanced after the report has been published. Could the committee have a timeframe for the report's publication and consideration by Government?

Chairman

I agree with Deputy Michael D. Higgins. Could the Minister of State address the question of long delays in repatriation from Britain? The study will look at this issue but it is an issue for political leadership rather than just the study group. The delay in an Irish prisoner being repatriated from Britain is significant. If the sentence is three or four or five years, repatriation will not happen. Is there any explanation why Ireland can repatriate British prisoners much easier and faster than Britain repatriates Irish prisoners?

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is more responsible in this regard and we have communicated with him on the matter. Presumably he is taking the concerns of the committee on board but it would be helpful if Deputy Treacy could give us his views. Is the Government giving attention to this matter and does he expect progress on it? We are not talking about thousands of prisoners, we are talking about dozens or hundreds. Where there is a request for repatriation it should not take three or four or five years for the British authorities to process it. I would like Deputy Treacy to actively pursue that issue.

Deputy Treacy

This issue is often discussed as part of Anglo-Irish relations in both east-west and North-South contexts. The Irish ambassador to Britain and his team are involved in constant discussions on the matter and all the UK representatives of ICPO and other people are in communication with the Irish Embassy on it. It is of great importance to the Government and is constantly being worked on. It is not a simple situation.

Although the study is going ahead, efforts to improve the lot of individual prisoners, and all Irish people incarcerated in different parts of the world, will not be postponed. In our dealings with the EU, the UN and the UK we constantly work on these issues to try to make progress. Collectively and individually the committee's contributions and the Government's contributions with the official team and ICPO all help the situation.

Deputy Carey

Ecuador has acceded to the Strasbourg Agreement. I do not know which, if any, other countries have done so. The commission told the committee that in the absence of the accession, the Department would explore bilateral arrangements with South and Central American countries that are not signatories to facilitate repatriation. I think a template was emerging on Cuba and it is important to advance this work.

Deputy Treacy

That is actively being worked on. We are working on a model through the bilateral negotiations to see if we can make some progress in that area.

Deputy Carey

Did any countries apart from Ecuador accede to the Strasbourg Agreement?

Deputy Treacy

Cuba was the first, in a bilateral agreement.

Chairman

I thank the Minister and his officials. I thank the committee members. The sub-committee takes this matter seriously. We look forward to the results of the study group but we hope in the interim that the issues we have raised and other issues faced by Irish prisoners abroad will be actively pursued by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, by Deputy Dermot Ahern and by Deputy McDowell and we will keep in contact with their offices on the matter.

Deputy Treacy

I thank the Chairman and the members and I look forward to discussing this again.

The joint committee went into private session at 12.56 p.m. and adjourned at 1 p.m. until 17 November 2005.