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Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 20 Jun 2023

Pre-budget Submission: Dóchas

Apologies have been received from our Chair, Deputy Flanagan, Deputy Stanton, and Senators Joe O'Reilly, Wilson and Ardagh.

Today's meeting is with representatives from Dóchas to discuss their pre-budget submission. I welcome Ms Jane-Ann McKenna, CEO of Dóchas; Ms Réiseal Ní Chéilleachair, head of international advocacy with Concern Worldwide; and Ms Rosamond Bennett, CEO of Christian Aid Ireland and Mr. Maurice Sadlier, programmes and policy director with World Vision Ireland who is joining virtually from Uganda.

The format of the meeting is that, in the usual manner, we will hear the opening statements followed by a question and answer session with the members. I ask members to be concise with their questions to allow all members who are present the opportunity to participate. It might not be an issue today.

Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that we should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

For witnesses attending remotely outside the Leinster House campus, there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness who is physically present does.

I also remind members they are only allowed to participate in this meeting if they are physically located in the Leinster House complex.

I call Ms McKenna to make her opening statement. She will be followed by her colleagues.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the invitation to meet them today to brief them on the issues and recommendations outlined in the Dóchas pre-budget submission for 2024. It has only been three months since we were last before the committee, but in that time a deadly and violent conflict has engulfed Sudan, forcing hundreds of thousands of people to flee war and seek refuge in neighbouring countries. The fighting shows no signs of slowing down and the human toll grows every day. Those still in Sudan are seeing their livelihoods, health and social systems deteriorate in real time. This increasingly dire situation comes at a time when a record 240 million people in 69 countries need urgent humanitarian assistance. Parts of Ethiopia, Kenya and Somalia are now enduring their sixth consecutive failed rainy reason, which has led to soaring food prices and water scarcity, pushing millions of people into ever more extreme levels of food insecurity. For Dóchas members, who are working in and through local communities and organisations, the magnitude of the multiple crises and the chronic level of underfunding is having real and serious consequences. The gap between rapidly increasing humanitarian need and global funding is widening, forcing impossible choices as to who gets left behind. As the committee heard from us in April when we briefed members on the progress against the sustainable development goals, SDGs, decades of progress towards ending poverty and hunger are being rapidly reversed by a deadly mix of climate change and conflict. The Irish Government must respond urgently.

Ireland stepped up to increase funding in response to the spiralling crisis in the Horn of Africa in 2022 and it is vital we do not step back now. However, funding is not the only need. Political will is needed to ensure climate targets are met, conflict is prevented, food systems work for everyone and those furthest behind are reached. Ireland should leverage its role as co-facilitator of the UN SDG Summit to influence wealthy nations and partners to accelerate progress on the SDGs by 2030 through transformative policies and measurable commitments. António Guterres, the United Nations Secretary-General, urged world leaders to help deliver a rescue plan for people and planet at the summit. Only a few days ago, speaking at UN headquarters, Mr. Guterres stated: "We are hurtling towards disaster, eyes wide open....it’s time to wake up and step up". We now need to step up to what is being asked of us as a country and a global community and not sleepwalk towards rolling crisis after crisis. Hunger and malnutrition are not inevitable. People capable of producing enough and earning enough money for food for themselves and their families are being disproportionately impacted by conflict, climate change, and inequality.

I am joined by Ms Rosamond Bennett, CEO of Christian Aid Ireland and by Ms Réiseal Ní Chéilleachair, head of international advocacy at Concern Worldwide, both of whom will give the committee a sense of the urgent action needed, in particular for those who are displaced as a result of conflict and those who are suffering the injustice of global unsustainable food systems. I am also pleased to be joined virtually from Uganda by Mr. Maurice Sadlier, programmes and policy director with World Vision Ireland, who will give the committee a sense of how climate change has impacted communities he has visited and spent time with in the past week.

The committee has been a strong champion of sustainable development and of the calls of Dóchas and its members. We recognise the consistent record of Irish Aid as a humanitarian donor and the support of the committee in delivering Ireland's commitment to reaching those furthest behind. In our discussion this afternoon we will speak about several recommendations we are making and we look forward to having a fruitful dialogue with the committee. In summary, we appeal to the Government to make real and tangible progress towards our commitment to spend 0.7% of global national income, GNI, on official development assistance, ODA, by 2030. We must make good on our commitment to spend ODA on those furthest behind in the least developed countries and those worst affected by climate change and conflict. We ask for the urgent scale-up of Ireland's humanitarian funding to conflict-affected and fragile states, recognising that funding must be underpinned by policies that contribute to removing the root causes of crises. We ask the Government to show leadership through global initiatives to tackle hunger and deepen co-operation across all its Departments to achieve our goals on hunger and sustainable food systems, SFS. We also ask the Government to act on climate change at all levels, including delivering on the commitment to provide a minimum of €225 million per annum of climate finance, with a view to rapidly increasing this allocation in response to the actual needs of low-income countries and in line with Ireland’s fair share of climate finance. We ask that as part of Ireland’s commitment to implementing the SDGs, both domestically and overseas, the SDGs be hardwired into the planning and budgetary processes across the State.

I will hand over to Rosamond Bennett, CEO of Christian Aid Ireland, who will share her experience of her visit last week to Kenya and to the Sudanese border.

Ms Rosamond Bennett

Last June, I travelled to northern Kenya and saw the impact of the worst drought the region had seen in more than 70 years. There were animal carcasses everywhere, including of goats, donkeys, cattle and camels. Few animals were left to provide milk or meat or to sell to get money for food. There were no crops to harvest and all this was compounded by rising food, fuel and fertiliser prices as a result of the war in Ukraine. I travelled back to the same region two weeks ago. This year the rains came to some parts of the region, but they did not arrive gradually. They arrived in a sudden torrent and the rock-hard earth was unable to absorb them. It was like rain hitting a plastic sheet. Within a short while, communities went from living on parched earth to being knee or thigh deep in water. Homes were destroyed, entire villages were cut off and cholera had broken out. There was no means to effectively capture the water that fell. While there was rain, there was still no water and women in Golbo, Moyale continue to walk 24 km each way to get their daily water. However, the area is certainly much greener and looks more fertile now compared with last year but there are still significant levels of hunger. There is now a lot more grazing for livestock but 90% of the livestock died last year in the drought and it will take years for those livestock levels to be rebuilt.

The remaining livestock now looks much healthier because they have grazing, and they look much healthier than their owners, to be honest. The only seeds available for planting were low-quality maize seeds, and those are usually used primarily as animal fodder. The communities in Moyale now have to wait months for harvest time before they can be sure of food. Food they would normally have fed to their animals, they will now feed to their families. In other areas such as Ngurunit and Laisamis, the rains came but made little difference. The land remains parched and dry.

Every community I met, bar one, listed food and water as their top two priorities. Access to water is a huge anxiety. Communities now realise that just because the rains came in some areas this season does not mean they will come next season. Four years of drought cannot be rectified by one rainy season. They talked openly about the impact of climate change and how parlous they feel trying to figure out if the last four years of drought are a once in a generation event or if this is the new weather pattern. Will there be years of drought followed by a year of floods and then back to drought? That uncertainty causes ongoing fear and anxiety about how they will survive. The Samburu community, with whom I have been working for the past eight years, spoke to me the first time about education being a priority for their children. Climate change means they need to find new ways of making a living. They have to reassess their whole traditional way of life, because they will not survive otherwise. A local chief in the first community I visited in Moyale thanked us for being there to help them. We helped them to set up self-help groups, gave them cash transfers, supported them in building a water catchment area and gave them goats and beehives when they had nothing else. Had they not had that, they would not have survived.

What I saw happen in Kenya is not just limited to that country. Climate change is a deeply unequal process. In our work all over the world we can see that poorer communities are those being left behind, and are picking up the tab for a crisis they did not create. That is why it is essential for Ireland to do its fair share of the global effort needed. It is about getting our emissions down significantly and providing climate finance support for developing countries as part of the Paris Agreement and the UN climate summits. These are as yet undelivered. Ireland has made progress in this regard. However, as set out in the Dóchas submission and in research from Christian Aid Ireland and Trócaire previously shared with the committee, we are still far from what is needed.

After Kenya I travelled to Renk. Last week I spent the week in Renk on the border between South Sudan and Sudan, where I met refugees and returnees who were fleeing the conflict in Sudan. It is just over two months since the conflict erupted in Sudan, and yet when I was at the border crossing at Jodha, there were still hundreds of people crossing the border each day. They brought with them only what they had on their backs and what they could carry. Some of the stories were horrific, such as that of Rebecca, a widow with children aged between ten and 25, who saw her neighbours and their children being raped by members of the Rapid Support Forces. She managed to flee. She used all her money to rent a car to get herself and all of her children to the border. Along the way she took in two unaccompanied children.

When people arrive at the border, they are tired but hopeful. Their hopes are quickly dashed when they realise there is absolutely no support for them. The transit centre in Renk is meant to hold between 1,000 and 2,000 people for a few days. It is a transit centre. They then move on. However, the reality is that there are more than 12,000 people there and it is severely overcrowded. Because it is a transit centre, very few services are available. The only food provided is sorghum. There are no latrines. There is open defecation. Between the smell and the flies it is just horrific.

At the border, all under-fives are assessed for malnutrition, and blue wristbands are given to those considered particularly vulnerable. After living in the camp for weeks with only sorghum to eat, it is really obvious that malnutrition is a huge issue. I saw many children who were severely malnourished. The first day I was there, four children died in the camp from diarrhoea and fever.

There is no space for new arrivals in the transit centre, but people are unaware of that when they arrive at the border. They quickly discover there is no shelter, food or water for them. I spoke to Mary, an elderly lady who had travelled with her daughter, Martha. She told me she could not sleep at night because she was terrified in case the rains came. There was only plastic sheeting to provide a little protection against the sun, not to protect against the rain. That night there was a huge thunderstorm, and the very next day everywhere was flooded.

The Government of South Sudan does not seem to be in a position to move people on, so the situation is only going to get worse. Currently, in addition to the approximately 12,000 in the transit centre, an estimated 30,000 to 40,000 in the surrounding area. They get no support. One of the main questions people asked me was why nobody in the international community is interested in them. Why does the world not want to help them in the same way they are helping Ukrainians? Why does their conflict and situation not matter? Why is it always the poorest and most vulnerable who are left behind? That is why our asks in the Dóchas document are so important. There are things Ireland can actually do to change this. However, I have to say that Ireland was represented there last week through Christian Aid Ireland and Goal, but there were very few other organisation around at that time.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I will hand over now to Mr. Sadlier.

Mr. Maurice Sadlier

The committee should feel free to cut me off if the connection does not work. I will not be insulted or annoyed. My story is similar to Ms Bennett's. I am in Karamoja, northern Uganda, which in terms of landscape is similar to northern Kenya. I had a meeting with the district officials. Some 35% of the population of the district is eating one meal per day to cope with the current hunger crisis. That is a large number of children and young adults who are going hungry. I asked the reason and the driving factor behind that. There is one answer from the district, the communities I have met, and other government representatives - climate change. It is a coping mechanism they have had to endure. Northern Karamoja has erratic rainfall. It is not a known rainy area. It has a single rainfall period each year between April and October. Communities are used to planting once per year and getting their food from that. However, due to climate change, we have seen increasingly changing weather patterns, with which people do not know how to cope. This year the rains arrived one month early, so people were struggling to plough the lands and get the seeds in the ground. After a few weeks of rain, it has suddenly stopped for the past six weeks. It was only with the arrival of the Irish ambassador, Kevin Colgan, that the rains reappeared. They thanked the Irish for the appearance of the rains in Karamoja. If community members had planted, their seeds had not taken, or were already destroyed, or they will just not have enough to produce enough to keep them going through the coming hunger season.

Uganda has a population of 45 million people. It is nine times the population of Ireland in a country that is three times the size. However, the per capita carbon emissions of an Irish person are 64 times that of a Ugandan. I am sitting in a town in northern Uganda, and there will be no power for the evening. It is about to go off in a while. The power is gone. There are very few vehicles. The carbon emissions of communities here are negligible, but these are the communities faced with the worst impacts of climate change. They really are struggling to cope and struggling to know what to do. The Government of Uganda is trying its best. I asked it about food distribution. There was food distribution here last week by the Government. It is not enough. It is enough to last a family of six for about a week. There is just a very small sticking plaster for quite a short time. When I asked communities what they need, they need a lot of access to irrigation, ability to cope with the situation, cash transfers and anything to get them through. Overall, they need more action on climate change by all of us, at all levels, and on increasing our funding to climate change.

I will leave it there.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I thank Mr. Sadlier and will now hand over to Ms Ní Chéilleachair from Concern.

Ms Réiseal Ní Chéilleachair

The committee has been given a good picture of the global position. It is important we first mark the contribution Ireland makes to reaching the furthest behind, the work of Irish Aid throughout the world and the work of this committee in supporting the work of Irish Aid, but we now face polycrisis in many places in the world. We are looking at conflict, climate change, increases in hunger, as Ms Bennett outlined, and ongoing health challenges such as increased cholera and Ebola throughout the world. We have just emerged from the Covid pandemic, and while some countries have recovered well, others have been unable to get back what was lost, not least in the case of the poorest people, who had to spend whatever they had saved to survive during the Covid pandemic. That means they will be more vulnerable to shocks that will hit them throughout 2023 and into 2024.

There is also a stretch in funding. While Ireland is a consistent and valued donor, it is one of a shrinking number of donors globally, which reinforces why Ireland's support is so important. As Concern and many of our colleagues are finding, there is not enough money to cover the humanitarian response, invest in resilience and undertake the development work that is needed. We are making very difficult choices. Many countries are caught in cyclical crises where communities are not able to recover from one shock before another happens. In South Sudan, for example, which was referred to, where there are droughts, floods and conflict, 76% of the population is dependent on humanitarian assistance. In Afghanistan, 23 million people are completely dependent on humanitarian aid, facing drought and conflict, and the El Niño effect is due to come again later this year. A number of years ago, we came before this committee to report on the impact of locusts in the Horn of Africa and what that was doing to food sources and food security in the region. There were also the Pakistan floods late last year and the recent earthquake in Türkiye and Syria. The pressure all of this puts on the capacity of governments and communities to respond and try to support people to rebuild what they have lost is extreme.

In regard to Ireland's commitment to reaching the furthest behind, we should not ignore Ireland's work, as Ms McKenna mentioned, as co-chair of the SDG summit and how important that is. The SDGs were agreed in 2015, and there is a general agreement that if they were being negotiated now, we would not be able to secure the same commitments to the protection of human rights and our natural resources and the elimination of conflict and hunger throughout the world. That gives a sense of how important it is to ensure the declaration on the SDGs in September and Ireland’s role in that.

Ireland's role on the UN Security Council has been essential to humanitarian actors like us through, for example, bringing conflict, hunger, and climate and security to the agenda of the council. The negotiations on Syria cross-border access have also been essential, as have securing humanitarian carve-outs in sanctions regimes. The work of Ireland goes way beyond humanitarian funding in and of itself and wider funding to civil society, UN agencies and throughout the multilateral system. The committee's work as advocates for Irish Aid is very important and helps greatly us in delivering our work.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations, sobering as they were. We appreciate the acknowledgements they made for the work of the committee, the Government and Irish Aid. The task at hand remains monumental, given that the crossover demands are dominated by humanitarian aid as a result of climate change, conflict and post-pandemic issues.

I thank the witnesses and welcome those in the packed Visitors Gallery. It is not often, at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence, that we have so large an audience. Tá fáilte romhaibh go léir.

I should point out some students from the Georgia Institute of Technology in the US are present. They are more than welcome and I thank them for their attendance. I hope they will gain something from their short visit and participation in the meeting.

There was me thinking it was just a group of random people who had collectively decided our committee was the one they wanted to hear from.

I thank the witnesses for the presentation. As the Leas-Chathaoirleach said, some of the case studies are sobering, to put it mildly, not least in the case of the recollections from Sudan, Kenya and Uganda, which were harrowing. The truth is we will attend other meetings in two hours and they will have slipped our mind. Unfortunately, it is the job of organisations such as Dóchas to keep the public aware of the need for support and collective actions, both individually and as communities, states, governments and multilateral institutions.

For the purposes of this committee, we can deal only with what our Government can do. Sometimes this comes across as facetious, but it is important to reflect on what this means for Ireland when we do this right. We have a set of public forums approaching, as I am sure the witnesses will be aware, including a consultative forum on international security policy. We might leave aside the debates about that, but it is about Ireland's place in the world. Sometimes I think we miss some of the aspects of Ireland's place in the world for which we are most renowned and which give us what President Biden described when he was in the Dáil Chamber as Ireland's "moral authority". Part of that moral authority stems from, incidentally, our neutrality and our non-alignment but also, undoubtedly, from the role Ireland has played traditionally in the global south, through both development aid and the organisations that emanate from here. I would appreciate if the witnesses could speak to that. We are all selfish at the end of the day and it is important the public knows, not least when there is a big budget ask, that this is something from which we gain as well as positively contributing internationally.

I attended the launch of Dóchas's pre-budget submission, which sets out in stark detail why this is required. For next year's budget, there is a call for an increase of €305 million in the overseas development aid, ODA, budget. Where would that leave us in respect of the 0.7 of GDP commitment? I have not seen it in the documentation. How much further would we have to go? It is a lot of money, notwithstanding the current budget circumstances. I am conscious that in 2008, we were close to 0.6% of GDP going to ODA, and we then dropped for good reason, namely, the financial crash. I often wonder about the implications of when something like that happens. Do the witnesses go by the school of economics that says when you have money, you spend it, or is it better for organisations such as Dóchas if a consistent, steady growth brings us to that point as opposed to there being big jumps when the public finances are good, with the potential of a cliff edge and what that might mean for programmes that are at a mid-point?

I would appreciate it if the witnesses could speak to that.

A number of speakers referenced climate change and its implications. We know our own obligations in terms of climate action. We are meeting none of them in terms of targets set, but that is another debate. The witnesses stated Ireland should deliver €225 million for climate finance. I take it they see that as beyond the 0.7% of GDP allocation. Will the witnesses clarify that and indicate where they see that type of fund going in terms of the trajectory of the finance and what that would mean in terms of overall GDP and GNI?

We are told that the percentage of GNI is 0.64% but that includes first-year costs associated. I think much of the increase involves the provision of services for Ukrainian refugees who are in Ireland. That is a bit of an accounting trick. Clearly, we have obligations to people residing in Ireland. How they happen to be here is almost secondary. There is a sliding scale in terms of our rights and responsibilities regarding citizens, those seeking asylum and those who have been granted refugee status. Do the witnesses see that as a fair measure? Do they think that what we spend in Ireland, even for very worthy supports for people fleeing Ukraine and other war-torn areas, should be included in our accounting measures for overseas development aid?

A big míle buíochas to Dóchas and its representative organisations because, to answer my first question, the work they do gives us a moral authority and a standing in the world from which we benefit. It is not the reason we should do it but we do benefit from trade, investment and diplomatic relations that are founded in no small part on the work Dóchas does, so I again thank it for that.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I might address the question around percentage GNI and some of the Ukraine costs. I will hand over to Ms Ní Chéilleachair regarding Ireland's place in the world in light of the forum later this week.

We have just produced an estimation, based on what we know of overseas development aid expenditure for 2023, of what it would take to bring us to 0.7% in 2030 in a reasonable way. A figure of €305 million is a significant amount of money. In any of the budgetary discussions, we are looking for a considerable amount of additional expenditure, but as we have outlined, there are significant humanitarian and other needs to which this country is committed to responding and we have committed to 0.7% by 2030. That is an estimation of approximately what would bring us to 0.44%. We are at 0.4% for 2023 and that would bring us to 0.44% looking at it from a step-by-step basis to bring us to 2030.

Regarding the costs associated with the Ukraine war, as part of the OECD development assistance committee, DAC, you can include in-country refugee costs for the first year. That has brought Ireland's overseas development aid up to 0.64%. We know the expenditure on Ukrainian refugees in particular has created that increase from 0.4% to 0.64%, and that is why we went with 0.4% to say that, in terms of overseas development aid that is spent overseas that reaches some of the most fragile contexts in the world, that is how we are modelling what we need to achieve. It is really important there are ongoing meetings that colleagues are attending in Paris around the OECD DAC. They stated that refugee costs were never intended to be a major part of overseas development aid. They were allowed to encourage shared responsibility in terms of taking refugees. This is why it is important that when we look at expenditure, it is used for those who are the poorest and most vulnerable communities. All of us in civil society really welcome Ireland's response to Ukrainian refugees. We have taken a very principled stance and the Irish Government has shown extreme leadership. We do not see it as an either-or but we believe that when we look at our overseas development aid and how we want to increase it, we should ensure we showcase that commitment to 0.7% and spend that money overseas as much as possible.

I will hand over to Ms Ní Chéilleachair regarding Ireland's role in the world.

Ms Réiseal Ní Chéilleachair

A Better World is Ireland's development policy in which it outlined the kind of world in which we want to live in terms of addressing climate change, gender, conflict and the contribution to reducing humanitarian need around the world. For us, that is a concern that frames the type of vision Ireland has.

In terms of Ireland having a moral authority, it is as much Ireland recognising it is simply the right thing to do and that humanitarian assistance is an absolute necessity given our history as a country that experienced famine and conflict. The leadership Ireland has shown when it was on the Security Council is really remarkable and important.

Beyond that, the slide in the number of donors that are continuously stepping up to provide humanitarian assistance is a real worry-----

Can I interject there? It was a question I meant to ask. When Ms Ní Chéilleachair refers to the number of donors, is she talking about state donors?

Ms Réiseal Ní Chéilleachair

Yes.

Is she talking about states that previously contributed that have withdrawn entirely or reduced the amount they are giving?

Ms Réiseal Ní Chéilleachair

They have not withdrawn entirely but they are reducing their global contributions. The US Government is the largest humanitarian donor but the forecast is that this funding will not be as available next year as it is now. The UK Government has also reduced its development and humanitarian assistance significantly. The trends are very worrying. Equally, trends relating to humanitarian need are very worrying. Regarding the pressure on agencies like ourselves to respond continuously and try to cover more people and address issues around resilience, it is nearly impossible to do it when funding is precarious at best and reducing in different countries.

Does anyone else wish to elaborate on any of those points?

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I will address climate finance. Ireland has committed to €225 million in climate finance per annum by 2025. It has committed to that being in addition to overseas development aid as per Ireland's obligations under the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. When we signed up to the climate finance commitments, there was an obligation that this would be in addition to our overseas development aid. When we look at our overseas development aid expenditure, we are measuring this against GNI. It is about proportionately growing our overseas development aid in line with the growth of our economy and ensuring we are adhering to the commitments we made.

Deputy Carthy and I met a member of World Vision or Christian Aid a couple of weeks ago in Buswells Hotel. She spoke to us about the ratio of debt developing countries have to pay to the IMF. It is frightening. While the witnesses' presentations today were very good, they leave you feeling a bit hopeless at times. The portion of debt these countries have to pay to the IMF is appalling. It has to be said that, rather than paying bills, these countries should be writing invoices for Europe, North America and the other countries that have exploited these countries for so long.

It was mentioned that farmers in Kenya are looking for education for their children. That is all well and good, but even educated people need to be fed. Will the witnesses talk to us about that as well?

I was listening to the radio this morning. I heard much talk in the past 24 hours about five very wealthy people who are stuck in a submarine off the coast of Newfoundland. Five lives are five lives. I have nothing against people who are rich spending their money in whatever way they want. However, 750 people drowned in the Mediterranean last week. I have heard more about the five people in the submarine in the past 24 hours than I have about the people who are dead. Today is Refugee Day. We should remember that.

I lived abroad for a number of years. There is no place like home. When the matter hits the fan, people want to go home. The matter is certainly hitting the fan in many developing countries. It is important that we give support to these countries because everybody wants to stay at home. People want to go abroad, but, ultimately, however, they love their home countries. Nobody wants to get onto a boat. We should all remember that many of the people in the refugee centres with whom the witnesses are working could never find the money to get on one of these boats. It is always the people with money that at least get a chance. So many of them drown but at least they get that chance. It is important that we make developing countries liveable. People deserve to make their homes good.

I feel strongly about that when we talk about the brain drain as it is called, taking trained nurses from the Philippines and bringing them over here to look after our people. We have so much to do. Before I came to this meeting, I was at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action. What happened in the Horn of Africa last year was appalling. I am glad to hear that things have improved somewhat. I spoke to the Ambassador of Kenya a couple of weeks ago. It is good that efforts are being made. Will the witnesses talk about farmers? Africa still needs farmers. Not everyone can be educated. People still need to produce food. It was mentioned about Uganda, which has a huge lake beside it. Irrigation is possible there if we could get that water around that country. We should look to support that financially. I will leave it at that.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I thank the Deputy. My colleagues and I agree with her. Nobody gets on a boat unless they have to. Unfortunately, the disaster last week has added to the number of at least 27,000 people who have died in the Mediterranean since 2014. To put this is context, many of the countries where our members work are hosting the majority of refugees around the world. I will hand over to Ms Bennett to speak agriculture and livelihoods and how we can encourage and protect those.

Ms Rosamond Bennett

It can feel overwhelming. Whenever I come back, Sunday is my mourning day. It is the day when I just wallow in it a bit. After that, it is a case of “Okay, what do we do next?” That is why the asks are in the Dóchas submission. One of the things we do is to support the community-led response. We do not work to tell people what they should do. We work with the communities and they tell us what they want to prioritise next and how they will move forward. That is what the Irish Government funds. That is what they are working towards. That means that whatever happens is sustainable and can continue to develop further into the future. It is not a one-off. That is where sustainable funding comes in. We are not going to get the support from the general public for refugees from the crisis in the Horn of Africa, they cannot fund that. That is why funding from government donors is absolutely crucial. We can work with those farmers to say “The climate is changing, so how are you going to farm differently? What are you going to do differently? What seeds will you grow that will be different?”

Christian Aid worked previously in India, with a Dalit community that continually suffered drought. By the end, what that community was doing became the state plan and a national plan for how farming should be undertaken. We work with communities and support them to change. That is where the farming comes in. People do what they have always done. I am from a farming family. My nephew tries to tell his father “I think we should do it differently”. It does not work. You have to work with people and they have to learn. That was the biggest barrier but now they know themselves that what they are doing cannot be continued, because of climate change. That is where the education comes in. They really want their children to learn how to farm this land when they do not know whether there will be drought or floods. It is about supporting those local communities to lead the response and develop their own responses. They can only have the education if they can grow crops that can pay the fees for school. That is why they need to have the cash transfers. They need that support. In order for that to happen they need support over a few years to help them to make that happen.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I might ask Mr. Sadlier to contribute in regard to some of the climate adaptation programmes he is working with in Uganda.

Mr. Maurice Sadlier

The point on education is really important. I was in Somalia last December. We are doing an education programme there. Communities, despite moving because of the drought, are in desperate situations. I ask them whether education is really what they want, could we not do something different for them? They say “No, if we do not have education we will be in the same situation in 100 years”. It is a top priority for families. Our job is to come in and deal with a desperate situation, which it is, but there is hope. Positive things are happening because of the Irish Aid funding and money the Irish Government channels through governments in-country and through UN agencies. There is positive progress on climate change. Looking at how communities have the knowledge, they know themselves what they can change. They know that “If we can grow this seed, it is more drought-resistant than that seed; if we grow this crop it is better for changing rains.” It is about building their capacity to be able to do that, building their ability to withstand immediate shocks because resilience gets worn away after repeated shocks. It is happening in communities, developing the resilience to implement what they know.

There are two points to pick up on. Ireland has to be commended. The Irish Government predominantly gives money in the form of grants. That is what countries need, not loans. Continuing to offer grants for humanitarian development action is really necessary. Ireland was a strong supporter of the loss and damage fund at COP27. We have asked for it to continue to be a strong supporter for loss and damage, because it is like the invoice that small island developing states should be handing to us for the climate breakdown that we have brought to the countries.

I was in the Solomon Islands in February this year. That was the country where I sat with the community members who see their shoreline disappearing. The sea is creeping further and further to their front doors. A 67-year-old man sat with me and said when he was a boy he remembers walking out on a really long beach, and now it is coming up to his front door. That is the concern. Those communities need the loss and damage funding that will hopefully be worked on more although I do not believe there was great progress at the Bonn Climate Change Conference recently. However, it will be worked on more at COP28. We need to make sure that goes down to the local level.

Ireland is a strong advocate for locally led development in the context of its humanitarian action. We need to make sure that the communities like those that all of us are visiting and talking to are receiving loss and damage funding and that as well as going to governments, this funding is reaching the lower levels.

Are there any further points that members online or otherwise would like to make? Okay.

On behalf of the committee, I thank our guests again for making themselves available and for comprehensively dealing with the questions put to them. We acknowledge and appreciate the insistence their budget submission and comments supporting it are a matter of public record at the committee and will form part of our own deliberations and presentations later in the year. I thank them for attending.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.21 p.m. and adjourned at 4.27 p.m. until 3.15 p.m. on Tuesday, 27 June 2023.
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