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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND TRADE díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 19 Jun 2012

Impact of Debt: Discussion with Debt and Development Coalition Ireland

I would like to welcome Ms Nessa Ní Chasaide, who is the co-ordinator of Debt and Development Coalition Ireland. The members of this committee are well acquainted with the coalition, which was established in 1993 by a number of development, faith-based and solidarity groups in Ireland that were concerned about the devastating effects of debt on southern countries. Ms Ní Chasaide will elaborate on the concerns that were outlined by the coalition in its recently-published public report card, Ireland, the Global South and the International Financial Institutions. A hard copy of the document has been made available to the members of the committee. It was also circulated earlier via e-mail, along with the briefing documents.

Before I ask Ms Ní Chasaide to make her presentation, I want to advise her that she is protected by absolute privilege in respect of her utterances at this committee. If she is directed by the committee to cease making remarks on a particular matter and she continues to do so, she is entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of her remarks. She is directed that only comments or evidence on the subject matter of this meeting are to be given. She is asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible she should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask Ms Ní Chasaide to address the joint committee. We are delighted to have her here.

Ms Nessa Ní Chasaide

I thank the Chairman and the members of the committee for giving me an opportunity to share the concerns of Debt and Development Coalition Ireland regarding this country's engagement with international financial institutions. Given that the committee has just been engaging with an executive director at the World Bank, Ms Marie-Lucie Morin, I will speak about World Bank-related issues. I will focus on four key areas: the debt distress levels and debt cancellation needs of southern countries; the need for responsible lending and borrowing standards and practices; the roles of private sector investment and the International Finance Corporation in the World Bank Group; and the need for democratisation at the World Bank.

As a result of international debt cancellation schemes managed by the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, some 36 southern countries - they are sometimes called developing countries - have received significant debt cancellation worth over $120 billion. Significant social gains have been achieved as a result of the debt cancellation arrangements that have been put in place in those countries. Although the schemes that were agreed in 1996, 1999 and 2005 were welcome and progressive, they have not adequately addressed the external debt problems of southern countries. This is because the schemes have been limited to just 40 countries, have taken too long to implement - in some cases over 6 years - and have often been accompanied by damaging economic policy conditions.

The external debt of southern countries is still enormous. It currently stands at over $4 trillion. As a result, the IMF has warned that it expects a significant deterioration in southern country debt levels, compared with pre-crisis projections, over the next five years. The IMF estimates that one third of low-income countries are in debt distress or are at high risk of it. The UN has again called for action in support of southern nations that are experiencing continuing debt distress. Last year, it asked donors to consider further debt cancellation for all low-income countries and, crucially, called for a sharing of responsibilities between lenders and borrowers in dealing with debt crises. It is crucial that justice-centred international debt policies are at the heart of Ireland's development co-operation policy. In 2002, Ireland was one of the first donor countries to acknowledge the need for debt cancellation for the most impoverished countries back. As existing debt cancellation schemes draw to a close, however, Ireland's 2002 policy is out of date and has worrying gaps regarding international debt questions.

The next issue I will discuss is the need for responsible lending and borrowing practices. Illegitimate debts and the damaging loan policy conditions of the World Bank and the IMF need to be tackled. There is a need for responsible financing standards. European countries, including Ireland, are painfully aware of the importance of regulation and standards in international lending and borrowing. There is no international framework for dealing with the sharing of responsibilities in situations of debt crises where reckless international lending and borrowing have taken place. As a result, dealing with the fallout is a deeply political process that is often determined by unbalanced power relationships. Most southern nations have unjustly paid billions of euro as a result of reckless borrowing and lending, including loans that have caused human rights abuse and have been extended on unfair terms and conditions. This has led civil society organisations and parliaments to question the legitimacy of their debts. For example, debt justice activists in Zimbabwe are currently seeking independent audits of their debts to ascertain their legitimacy or otherwise.

Many illegitimate debts include loans that have been extended with damaging policy conditions attached. In 2005, a World Bank review of its practice of conditionality sought to finally address many of the problems raised against it in this area. Since this review, the overall number of conditions attached to World Bank loans has been reduced, which is welcome. However, a smaller number of policy conditions can still exert a high level of influence. The World Bank's loan policy conditions continue to give it high levels of influence in policy areas of southern countries such as primary industries, natural resource management, fiscal policy and public sector reform. The negative impact of some of these conditions can be far-reaching and remains a major challenge for southern countries. It should also be noted that, in practice, IMF policy conditions remain problematic. The IMF policy conditionality guidelines in 2002 sought to decrease its number of structural conditions and in 2009 the IMF phased out its structural performance criteria. This is very welcome. Despite current discourse that the IMF has reformed its practice of policy conditionality, recent research carried out by our European network on 13 low income countries shows that, while there was an initial, more flexible approach to managing the financial crisis by the IMF, there was little fundamental change in the IMF's long-term approach to applying inappropriate policy conditionality in southern countries.

Earlier Ms Morin spoke extensively about private sector investment and the IFC and World Bank Group. Funding for the IFC and the World Bank Group has grown enormously over the past decade and finance sector lending comprises over half of its new project commitments in 2010. The World Bank's growing support for private, rather than public, investment is questionable because the development outcomes have been so sub-standard. The independent evaluation unit of the World Bank found that over 40% of IFC projects were unsuccessful in delivering development outcomes in 2009. Recent research also showed that companies from rich countries received most of the IFC investments while only 16% of all IFC investments supported went to local companies in southern countries and two thirds went to transnational companies from richer countries.

The World Bank is reviewing its procurement policy, which was also referenced this morning, and relates to how the private sector benefits from providing goods and services that are the result of World Bank loans. Justice-centred procurement approaches are crucial for good development outcomes because more than 50% of official global development assistance is spent on procuring goods and services for development projects. The review of the World Bank's international procurement policy is inflexible because it privileges international procurement as best practice. The review at the World Bank should strongly endorse country-led procurement policies that encourage targeted appropriate procurement systems that support southern domestic economies.

I noted Ms Morin's response in the earlier session when she indicated that the majority of procurement contracts go to developing countries and I am eager to engage with her on those figures. Research carried out by our European network in 2011 looked at six specific country case studies in Africa, Asia and Latin America. It indicated that half of the procurement contracts, from the World Bank loans to those countries, were given to external foreign companies.

The final area that I will talk about is the need for radical democratisation in the World Bank. Voting power at the World Bank remains based on outmoded interpretations of decision-making and economic power. Reforms in 2010 brought about a small increase in voting shares at the World Bank for southern countries but so far voting reform has resulted in high income countries being set to hold on to over 60% of voting power across the World Bank Group. The governing structure is highly undemocratic, in particular given the continuing significant influence of the bank over the economic policy decision-making of southern governments.

The role of the World Bank in climate financing also goes to the heart of the undemocratic nature of the institution. The World Bank has become increasingly involved in climate related funding that is desperately needed by southern countries. The World Bank climate investment funds have become much more representative of southern governments but major problems remain. It is of grave concern that the World Bank is being given such an influential role in climate financing as it has already failed to live up to its promises to invest in renewable energy, having increased its lending to fossil fuel based projects by 400% between the years 2006 and 2010. Another issue of major concern is the World Bank's privilege of financing mitigation of the ongoing effects of climate change over the long-term goal of supporting southern countries to adapt and to cope and the lack of adequate participation of affected communities, particularly women, in its decision-making. In addition, the extension of loans, as opposed to grants, to southern countries to help them to adapt and to cope with climate change is of particular concern as it will lead to a further accumulation of unjust debts in countries that are not responsible for causing global climate change.

What are Ireland's responsibilities in this regard? Ireland has played a comparatively progressive role in the policy area by supporting debt cancellation for southern countries, including clearly supporting debt cancellation payments to be in addition to official development assistance payments. However, there are serious and unjustifiable gaps in Ireland's international debt policy that undermine its international integrity which should be urgently addressed in Ireland's ongoing review of the White Paper on Irish Aid. It is a matter of justice for people in the global south and a matter of public accountability. In 2011 Ireland contributed almost €33 million to the World Bank's trust funds and €18 million to the International Development Association, IDA, the arm of the World Bank that lends to the most impoverished countries as part of a multiannual agreement.

Ireland should support a number of strategic policy interventions at the World Bank and the IMF. It should advocate for increased debt cancellation for southern countries in order that they meet the minimum of a millennium development goal anti-poverty target, including the cancellation of unjust and illegitimate debts. Ireland should advocate an immediate end to damaging loan policy conditions, such as particularly sensitive economic policy conditions that are applied by the World Bank and the IMF in southern countries. Ireland should advocate for more fundamental governance reform at the World Bank and the IMF in order to provide a greater voice and representation in decision-making for southern countries.

Ireland should be an advocate for democratic climate finance by supporting a genuinely democratically governed green climate fund and climate finance mechanisms that are grant based, not loan based, for the most impoverished countries in the world. Critically, Ireland should advocate for a halt to the loss of billions of euros each year by southern countries as a result of tax evasion by multinational companies in order to help them to become less debt-dependent. This can be done by strengthening financial reporting standards for multinational companies on a country-by-country basis and a project-by-project basis where necessary.

These commitments can be fulfilled with little financial cost to Ireland. Action at a policy level in these areas would reap enormous benefits for southern countries socially, economically and environmentally now and in the future. The review of the White Paper on Irish Aid is an important opportunity to address these policy areas. I urge the committee to advocate that these issues are included in the White Paper review. I also urge the committee to request that the Department of Finance and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade complete their ongoing review of Ireland's international debt policy and reflect the policies that support sustainable and justice for the people of the global south.

I thank Ms Ní Chasaide for her comprehensive statement. We value her contribution, particularly as it followed an earlier presentation by the World Bank. The timing of both contributions is important. The committee compiled a submission on the White Paper and included some of the issues raised by Ms Ní Chasaide. I now call on Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn.

I thank Ms Ní Chasaide for her presentation. It was important to have the executive director for our constituency before us to give us the full picture and to outline the positives and negatives.

As everyone will know, the Tánaiste and his Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade published the Africa strategy. Earlier Mr. Eamonn Kearns made the point that because Ireland has been a global leader in overseas development assistance and in upholding human rights across the world, its position of authority and respect is far beyond that of a small island of 6 million people. We should constructively engage and see if we can develop trade and relationships as those economies start to grow. It is clear that the political leaders of those economies and the NGOs want to get to the point of trade and not aid. However, on that journey we need to get the balance right between development assistance and trade. I am not convinced that those attending the conference today in Ireland are doing so in order to help development in the developing world. They are attending to see if there is a business opportunity for them. What is the role of Government - it is fine for people to seek investment opportunities - in ensuring those who do that respect the need for proper public infrastructure and pay the appropriate tax in those countries? How do we ensure the balance is met where we encourage the building of trade but protect the domestic economies and their rights in that process?

It might have been much more advantageous if the two representatives had engaged in a debate on the points being made by both sides and would have made for a very interesting meeting. I have a couple of questions. On the work of debt and development coalition groups in other countries, while there is a common agenda, do they come together to promote particular aspects at different stages? On independent audits, I asked about Zimbabwe but are there other countries that need this independent audit also? As Ms Nessa Ní Chasaide mentioned in her paper regarding the lack of an international framework, would she support Senator David Norris' suggestion of an international economic court to deal with the issue? On procurement, there is divergence. Ms Marie-Lucie Morin said it was mostly won by countries from the developing world. Does she mean multinational companies based in the developing world, which would not mean they are coming from the developing world? There was also a divergence about climate change in that Ms Nessa Ní Chasaide said the World Bank is failing to live up to its promises on investing in renewable energy while Ms Morin said about €1.7 billion from the IFC was invested in clean energy.

Tax evasion is a major issue. Multinational companies must have degrees in tax evasion. Ms Nessa Ni Chasaide referred to the need for financial accounting country by country. There is probably a need for financial accounting company by company also. My final question is about the role of the governments in the developing countries. Many of these countries have been riddled with corruption and the resources of the countries, which are considerable in some cases, are not going where they should.

This is a fascinating debate. The contrast between the two papers as delivered is interesting. Much of the language, debt forgiveness and debt deferment, is pertinent to Ireland, a First World country, and our status vis-à-vis southern countries. However, the language is fascinating. It is clear in Europe that there is an unbalanced power relationship between Ireland and Germany and between Germany and France. It is popular to call for debt cancellation, especially for southern countries. As a matter of curiosity, when a debt is forgiven to the extent that the World Bank forgives, which country is losing the money? I do not fully understand the structures, therefore one must be patient with me. Ireland is good at proclaiming debt forgiveness right across the whole world, especially in Africa and Asia. If it is conceded who, ultimately, foots the bill?

The justice centred international debt policies are at the heart of Ireland's development co-operation policy. I agree with that. I understand Ms Nessa Ní Chasaide is suggesting we are compromised at World Bank level because we are not adhering to that particular area. She mentioned the White Paper. My understanding is that it is complete or, certainly, the debate appears to be over. It was run throughout the country and we finalised our contribution. I do not know if the representatives can intercede with the White Paper.

The issue of procurement was fascinating. I have experience of the famous football stadium in Donetsk in Ukraine, built by the Italian labour, where the Ukrainians did not get any of the jobs. I am conscious of the role China is playing in the developing world, particularly in Africa. I presume it is not a member of the World Bank. Therefore, under what policy is it allowed to get in and, to use an emotive word, essentially rape the African continent, maybe in compliance with corrupt governments? What is China's role and is it a member of the World Bank?

I am on a learning curve. I welcome the debate and if this is the first of many, I hope I will be better equipped to get clarity in the future.

I thank Ms Nessa Ní Chasaide for addressing the committee. There are a couple of issues that come to mind. We have all talked about developing countries, particularly the African countries but not exclusively, where the stability of or corruption in the political system leads to the impression in some people's minds that we end up helping the wrong people. There is a need to address that issue to an ever increasing extent. By doing so, we alleviate not only the burden of debt and poverty that affects the developing countries but the responsibility on ourselves by way of making contributions or transfers.

An issue that comes to mind in the warmer climates is alternative energy, such as solar energy. That is an obvious issue on which to concentrate when it comes to getting the international community to invest in projects which will be hugely beneficial and economically viable for the long term. I would appreciate the comments by the representatives on that issue. Clearly we need to recognise this as being hugely important for developing countries that have a climate that is well disposed towards utilising those new developments. Ms Ní Chasaide mentioned an ongoing difficulty with the international investment that goes into many developing countries in that there appears to be a tendency to also depend on the development of the petrochemical industry - we know where that leads to eventually. However, there are economic benefits for the countries involved and the issue is how to convert those assets to achieve their own development goals for their own purposes as opposed to draining them all out, literally and metaphorically, for the benefit of others.

Tax avoidance in multinational corporations is an ongoing problem. They tend to invest in countries that have beneficial tax regimes or will try to avoid paying tax. In order to achieve a certain amount of balance in this area, an international corporation does not invests in any location for the benefit of their hearts and souls or for charitable purposes but because they borrow from banks to invest and the banks require that the money be paid back. I fail to understand the split in our vision as to the way things should be done. I recall reading a critique in the newspapers a couple of years ago to the effect that multinational corporations investing here were doing so for a profit. For what other reason were they doing it? Does anybody invest to make a loss? I have heard people put forward suggestions that could end up in investment for loss but we will not go there in this particular gathering.

I emphasise that we should not always decry what is done by multinational corporations. They are ships passing in the night, so to speak. They can be of benefit to us and to developing countries if we utilise them properly. That is the critical factor.

I welcome Ms Ní Chasaide and extend my apologies for missing a good part of her presentation. I had intended to pick up on Deputy Mac Lochlainn's concerns that many of the people attending the conference in Dublin were doing so because of an interest in doing business as distinct from resolving world poverty. I strongly agree with Deputy Durkan that multinational companies that invest in any country do so to make a profit but there are benefits to be derived from that also. Many underdeveloped countries will only improve their wealth and conditions for their people through the creation of employment opportunities. In addition to providing employment and improving the lot of the underprivileged, I hope those companies would have a social conscience and that there would be a social dimension to what they are doing.

In terms of what Ireland should be advocating for, what reaction and support has Ms Ní Chasaide got from the Government on the many laudable objectives she has set out in her strategic policy objectives? Is there anything she wants this committee to do to support what she is trying to achieve?

Deputy Durkan has left but those of us who have visited developing countries in Africa saw for ourselves some of the benefits of technology, and Deputy Durkan referred to solar technology. When I was in Mozambique two years ago I saw at first hand the benefits of solar energy for a project funded by Irish Aid where a bore hole was pumped and people got their water from it but for the first time they were not pumping it manually. They were doing it through the benefits of solar energy, and Irish Aid contributed to that. There are benefits from that type of activity and money invested in those areas. Members have put a variety of questions to Ms Ní Chasaide which I am sure she has had time to digest.

Ms Nessa Ní Chasaide

I thank members for their engagement and the questions they posed. I will deal first with the private sector related issues and the agenda of the private sector, for example, in attending the International Finance Corporation, IFC, meeting today and deciding what their interest may be in investing through the IFC in developing countries. The private sector will do what it wishes in any case. The question for Ireland, in terms of our development co-operation policy, is what the IFC should be doing as an important arm of the World Bank Group which is, ultimately, an international development institution whose mandate is to reduce poverty in southern countries. That is the first issue that must be kept on the agenda first and foremost.

Already, there are two serious concerns among civil society organisations in countries of the global South about IFC operations, the first of which is in terms of leveraging private sector investment, which is a way of topping up public finance to generate greater investment in developing countries. Our concerns are that the leveraging is targeting large multinational corporations and, through that, a number of issues arise. First, in a review of the European Investment Bank and the IFC sampling a number of companies, only 25% of all the companies supported by those institutions were domiciled in low-income countries. A key concern is that the money is going in the wrong direction. Second, a new strong trend is the use by international financial institutions of financial intermediaries to pass money to a middle private sector company. That becomes extremely difficult to track as to what happens after the money leaves that institution and what the development outcomes are in that regard.

Third, there is the question of procurement, which I know is on the agenda at the IFC meeting in Dublin today. What is important to acknowledge is that procurement in itself is a development activity. It can have a positive development outcome for countries in the global South if it benefits local industry well. There are clear assist procurement systems that have to be in place both among southern governments and within the development institutions giving aid to ensure that competitive prices are achieved and that there is no corruption. There is huge scope for much greater emphasis on targeted and country-tailored procurement policies.

As the Irish Government now appears to be indicating that it is encouraging the Irish private sector to engage more with the IFC, there are a number of questions that could be posed by the committee to the Department of Finance and Irish Aid in this regard. First, what does it see as the core development purpose of the IFC and does it believe that the IFC is delivering on its development mandate? Second, what does it see as the development purpose of international procurement policies? If Irish private sector companies are being encouraged to pursue procurement at the IFC, that would be a deviation from a sound development policy because in terms of our development co-operation policy Ireland should be pursuing as much benefit for southern countries from procurement systems of the World Bank and other development institutions.

On the other questions of taxation, multinational companies exist to make a profit but the crucial question is the illegal behaviour by multinational companies to achieve profits that are not rightfully theirs. It is estimated by Christian Aid that $160 billion per year is lost from southern countries as a result of tax evasion. That is through two particular forms of illegal practice - transfer mispricing, where goods are priced at a particular level to benefit the tax position of the companies involved, and falsifying invoices. These are illegal.

There is an important process going on at European Union level in that regard where EU directives on transparency and accounting are being reviewed. The Irish Government has supported country-by-country reporting for multinationals in that regard in respect of two extractive sectors. We welcome that. We also welcome that the Irish Government has supported project-by-project reporting because country-by-country level reporting from multinational companies often does not give enough information, in particular with regard to the extractives industry which is particularly prone to abuse by multinational companies.

This does not in any way undermine the purpose of a multinational company. There merely needs to be far greater transparency to ensure that the private sector is aware that citizens, governments and financial institutions are capable of investigating whether they are paying the right and just amount of tax in regard to the profits they are making.

Regarding the debt questions posed by a number of members, some practical questions were asked around who funds the debt cancellation agreements. That is a critical question. The reason debt cancellation agreements are contentious is because they cost money. In the last debt cancellation agreement, the multilateral debt relief initiative that was agreed after the G8 Gleneagles Summit in Scotland when the Drop the Debt campaign had a high profile, Ireland paid just under €60 million as its share towards that scheme, which was essentially a top-up of the existing debt cancellation schemes, termed the HIPC schemes or the HIPC initiative. That is the reason this issue is contentious. It is because the member countries of the World Bank and the IMF have financed the multilateral debt cancellation schemes. Other debt cancellations have been agreed, many of them bilaterally between governments and the countries that cannot pay them back. That is a cost that is taken on by the lending government. At World Bank and IMF level, which manages the current debt cancellation schemes of the HIPC and MDRI, the costs are based on the quota share and financial contributions of countries into the institutions. Obviously, the ones that pay the most are the ones that fund the most, in terms of the portions of debt cancellation. That said, the pursuit of increased debt cancellation for southern countries by the Irish Government would cost Ireland very little, given our quota share is so much lower than that of other countries in the institutions.

Another question that arose on the issue of debt concerns how debt justice organisations are organised around the world. We are very co-ordinated and networked with each other. Debt and Development Coalition Ireland is a member of the European Network on Debt and Development, which has over 50 members in Europe. We have counterparts in many countries of the European Union and we co-ordinate our positions closely with similar regional hubs in Africa, Asia and Latin America, the African Network on Debt and Development, the Latin American Network on Debt and Development and Jubilee South, which is a network across Africa, Asia and Latin America. The policy concerns I have outlined do not just come from Debt and Development Coalition Ireland. They arise from many democratic dialogues between up to hundreds of civil society organisations and these are the organisations on whose behalf we speak here today.

The issue of independent debt audits was raised. This is really a bottom up approach to try to achieve greater transparency with regard to the debt situation of southern countries. The lack of information flow is a significant problem, particularly with regard to external and domestic debts of southern countries. This is the reason debt audits are being pursued in Zimbabwe and it is on the cusp of deciding whether to partake in the HIPC debt cancellation scheme. If it partakes, it will have to start repaying much of its debt arrears. Zimbabwe has been in default for ten years because of its chaotic social and economic situation. Our counterpart organisation in Harare, the Zimbabwean Coalition on Debt and Development, is calling for independent parliamentary debt audit so that citizens and parliamentarians in Zimbabwe can examine the contracts and evaluation documents regarding the loans that have been given to Zimbabwe, whose debt is currently over €7 billion. Other independent audits have been pursued in many other southern countries, including the Philippines and Brazil. A government-led debt audit was carried out in Ecuador in recent years and this resulted in a commission being set up which reviewed the debt documentation relating to 30 years of Ecuador's debt. This resulted in the Ecuador Government taking strong steps and deciding not to repay certain bond payments it believed had been unfairly restructured.

Senator Norris proposed an international, economic, financial crimes court. There is a huge gap in our international architecture with regard to holding individuals and institutions to account for reckless financial endeavours. The global debt cancellation movement has been campaigning for decades for an international arbitration panel, which would be an international mechanism and body which would, in cases of debt crises or disputes, be in a position to review the debt situation of a country and to weigh up whether its debts are legitimate or should be repaid. International financial institutions have not pursued this proposal, which we have made on many occasions. This is the reason that at the grass roots level citizens in southern countries are taking up the idea of debt audits. They are doing so in order to access the information for themselves and to decide whether their debts are just and then to pressure their governments to take decisions on their behalf. Debt and Development Coalition Ireland is a member of an Irish network, Debt Justice Action, which seeks to pressure our Government with regard to suspending all of our Anglo Irish Bank debt payments. This is a similar model we have borrowed from citizens in countries of the global south.

The question of China's role was raised and the question was asked whether China is a member of the World Bank. It is a prominent member of the World Bank. Recently, a senior staff member of the World Bank commented to me that senior staff and the executive director sit up and listen when China speaks, because China is a very significant lender to southern countries now. This has posed some new competition to the traditional international lenders, such as the World Bank and the IMF. A good aspect of China's lending is that it does not attach policy conditions, such as the economic policy conditions the World Bank and the IMF pursue. However, the bad aspect of China's lending is that it is often for environmentally problematic projects that do not have social or environmental safeguards attached to them. Also, the lending can often be in the form of tied aid, where Chinese companies and labour are employed, particularly in African states. This is of serious concern to Debt Justice Action activists in countries of the global south.

With regard to energy and climate, Ms Morin referenced the fact that the IFC is ramping up its engagement in clean energy. However, a question arises as to the definition of clean energy. This is a big concern for environmentalists across Africa, Asia and Latin America. On the one hand, the World Bank is not meeting its renewable energy targets and on the other, it continues to invest in dirty energy projects. A prime example of this is the Eskom coal power plant that was approved recently for South Africa, despite concern and opposition from communities that will be environmentally and socially impacted by that project. The good thing about the World Bank Group is that it has an independent evaluation unit and inspection panel. The inspection panel has reviewed the Eskom project and has reflected many of the concerns raised by the communities back to the World Bank. The question now is: What will be done? It appears that, of late, the executive directors at the World Bank have said that these problems should be dealt with by the South African Government.

There is a problem therefore with regard to when the World Bank pursues large scale project lending and does not apply the correct social and environmental safeguards. Once the loan has been approved, it is very rare that the World Bank then changes its operations. This is a serious challenge. The World Bank should be show-casing projects in the renewable energy area where so much can be achieved, whether through solar, wind or other forms of energy. However, instead we have many dirty energy projects that cause great damage to communities in the global south. The political process relevant to this currently within the World Bank is a review of its safeguards policy, which is very weak. It does not provide enough social and environmental protection to communities affected by large scale World Bank projects. Therefore, we call on the World Bank to ensure that the review of the safeguards policy brings the safeguard framework up to standard, in line with international human rights, laws and frameworks. Our concern is that there is now a race to the bottom among lenders, where the World Bank is now competing with China which has very low standards. We are concerned that the World Bank will further dilute its safeguards policy when in fact it needs to be greatly strengthened.

The next question concerned the response of the Irish Government to the policy concerns we raised. Before that, I will deal with the question of concerns about corrupt governments. This is very high on the agenda of debt justice activists living in countries of the global South, because they are engaged in seeking to build more transparent and accountable government. The question for the Irish Government, and perhaps for this committee, is how to ensure that any funds from the Irish Aid programme and the Department of Finance contributions to the World Bank and the IMF are accounted for properly and are provided only in cases in which it is clear the funds will be put to their intended use. In addition, Ireland must work for more responsible financing standards between borrowing and lending countries. This does not mean pursuing policy conditionality but, rather, simplifying the borrowing-lending relationship between financial institutions and countries of the global South so that loans are not used as a political instrument to bring about economic changes within a country but are more straightforward development loans. Our European umbrella group, the European Network on Debt and Development, has formulated a set of template standards that could apply. It is important that Irish Aid ensures that any funds allocated to southern countries are used efficiently and in the correct way, but it is critical that Ireland's development co-operation policy maintains a do-no-harm principle. We must not use our membership of the World Bank and the IMF to achieve things that are beyond the mandate of the institutions or are not in the interests of citizens in the global South. This entails simplifying the lending-borrowing relationship and ensuring it is governed by clear fiduciary standards.

On the final question of the response of the Irish Government to the policy concerns we have raised, public consultation on the White Paper has now closed and we have made our submission to the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Costello. We have ongoing dialogue with the constituency in Washington at both the World Bank and the IMF and with Irish Aid and Department of Finance officials, which we greatly welcome and find very useful. The critical concern for Debt and Development Coalition is that while Ireland has a historically positive track record of supporting debt cancellation for southern countries, our policy is now completely out of date at a time when debt cancellation schemes are coming to a close, and there is no clarity with regard to the Government's view on the continuing debt distress levels of southern countries. Neither is there clarity about its view of the impact on the ground of World Bank and IMF policy conditions, or its view on odious or illegitimate debts that continue to be repaid by countries of the global South. These are policy matters; they will not cost Ireland significant amounts of money, but they demand leadership from the Irish Government to pursue the principles of partnership with southern countries and encouraging locally-owned development strategies so that southern countries can decide their own routes out of poverty. These policy questions have not been addressed and therefore these principles, which are a cornerstone of the White Paper on Irish Aid, are being undermined.

I hope I have answered the questions. I would be happy to respond to any further questions.

I thank Ms Ní Chasaide sincerely for her thorough answers to all the members' questions and for her comprehensive contribution. We very much appreciate the values and perspectives of Debt and Development Coalition Ireland and we see them as an important input into our deliberations. We thank her for coming before our meeting today.

Ms Nessa Ní Chasaide

I was also asked what the committee could do as a follow-up. It is true that the White Paper consultation has been completed; this was a major opportunity for debt justice to be included in the policy, so I hope the committee will keep an eye on what comes out of the White Paper review process. In addition, we have asked that the Department of Finance and Irish Aid complete the ongoing process of reviewing Ireland's international debt policy. That could be a specific request from the committee, which I hope will be pursued.

We will be having a meeting on the White Paper in the autumn. We will certainly keep a close eye on that, and perhaps Ms Ní Chasaide could too. I thank her again for attending and I thank her associates who attended the meeting. Tomorrow's meeting will be attended by IDA Ireland, Enterprise Ireland and Forfás. I thank the members for their co-operation. We have a really busy week as we are trying to make up for time lost last week.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.35 p.m. until 2.05 p.m. on Wednesday, 20 June 2012.
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