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Joint Committee on Health díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 5 Jul 2023

Irish Dental Association Strategic Workforce Plan: Irish Dental Association

Apologies have been received from Deputy Shortall. Before we get to the main item on today's agenda, minutes of the committee meetings on 27 and 28 June have been circulated to members for consideration. Are they agreed? Agreed.

The purpose of the meeting today is for the joint committee to consider the Irish Dental Association's recently released strategic workforce plan and related matters. To enable the committee to consider this matter, I am pleased to welcome from the Irish Dental Association, Mr. Fintan Hourihan, CEO; Dr. Eamon Croke, president; Dr. Caroline Robins, immediate past president; and Dr. Will Rymer, chair of the GP committee.

I will read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members taking part via MS Teams to confirm, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

To commence our consideration of the Irish Dental Association's strategic workforce plan, I now invite Mr. Fintan Hourihan to make his opening remarks on behalf the Irish Dental Association. He is welcome.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I thank the committee for the invitation to address the committee this morning. I am chief executive of the Irish Dental Association, IDA. I am joined by my colleagues, Dr. Eamon Croke, president; Dr. Caroline Robins, past president; and Dr. Will Rymer, chair of the GP committee.

This year, the association is 100 years old. Its history is intrinsically linked with the foundation of the Irish State and decisions made, for better or worse, by successive governments and policymakers over the 100 years. Oral and dental health form an essential part of general health and well-being, but our experience to date is that oral health is not prioritised in terms of promotion, funding or service delivery. My colleagues present today will tell the committee that diseases of the mouth and oral cavity have a significant impact on people in terms of pain, suffering, the impairment of function, productivity losses and reduced quality of life. From an economic perspective too, poor oral health costs. According to the Central Statistics Office, CSO, 80% of expenditure on dental care in Ireland is out-of-pocket expenditure. This tells us two things. It shows that State assistance towards the cost of dental care is extremely limited compared with other health conditions. More worrying, it shows that good oral health is strongly linked to socioeconomic status, with oral diseases and conditions disproportionately affecting poor and vulnerable members of society across the life cycle.

Unfortunately, none of this is new. Members will be all too familiar with the crumbling medical card scheme and the chronic delays in delivering the school screening programme, and we will address these issues, but staffing and resourcing in the dental sector is fast becoming an even bigger issue for patients in accessing dental care. Last September, we carried out research that showed in the starkest terms that the majority of vacancies in the dental sector cannot be filled. At that time, two thirds of practices that tried to recruit dentists in the previous 12 months could not fill the vacancy and neither could half of practices that attempted to recruit nurses or hygienists. These staff are essential to the effective running of dental practices and to ensuring access to dental care for those who need it in their communities. Two thirds of dentists said the staffing shortage was having an impact on patient access to dental care in their practice and two thirds said their capacity to treat emergency appointments had reduced in the past year. More recently, in April of this year, one in four dentists said they could not currently take on new private adult patients, while four out of five dentists said they did not have the capacity to take on any new patients, including children.

The situation is as stark, if not more so, in the public sector, where the HSE is obliged to provide care for children and for special care patients and an orthodontic service for children with severe orthodontic needs. Here, the recruitment and resourcing challenges arise from policy decisions which, as I stated, reflect the very low priority attached by the Department of Health and the HSE to the provision of dentistry.

The Minister for Health himself told us recently that the State has had a blind spot when it comes to dentistry and oral health. Our question to the committee today is what will it take for the State to open its eyes to the scale and urgency of the crisis that it consistently chooses to ignore in order that dental health is finally recognised as an integral part of general health. My colleagues will tell the committee in real terms that they cannot recruit enough dentists. They will say that their patients cannot get appointments quickly enough. I have no doubt that each member has come to today's meeting with stories from their own constituencies and communities about how difficult people are finding it to access care.

As part of the previous budget, the Government announced funding of €4.75 million to support the development of a new prevention-focused oral healthcare system for children aged from birth to seven years. We believe, first, that this is a tiny amount of spending directed at inappropriate reforms and we have fundamental concerns as to the likelihood of their delivery. We were not consulted or asked about the suitability of this type of reform prior to the oral health policy being published in 2019 or the latest budget announcement. In the period since, with no dialogue or consultation, we are increasingly concerned that this may be an attempt to shift political responsibility for children's oral health away from the public service, which is designed to target all patients through the school screening service and into the private sector, where the onus will be on parents to ensure that their children receive adequate oral healthcare in line with clinical best practice. We appear to be moving from a system that essentially targets all children to one where only those who are interested and willing are going to show up.

Announcing this type of scheme without any consultation with the profession and expecting an already overstretched and understaffed private sector to have capacity to see this cohort of patients is a very ill-advised proposition, and certainly not at a cost that we estimate equates to approximately €10 per child. According to recent research by Amárach Consulting, 75% of dentists in private practice would find it "difficult" or "very difficult" to provide such a service for under-sevens. As dental practitioners, my colleagues can tell members that specialist care is required when treating children and that this should happen in a fully staffed public service to ensure that all children, regardless of socioeconomic status, receive early intervention. We again call on the Minister and his officials to sit down with the profession, listen to it and work together to resolve the shortcomings that would benefit the dental sector as a whole and, ultimately, deliver the best outcome for the patient. The unfortunate reality is that, sadly, without the political willingness, patients – in particular children and the most vulnerable – will continue to fall further behind with their oral health and will shoulder the burden of a system crumbling under decades of inaction and neglect.

A €5 million initiative was announced in the budget to address the school screening backlog - but no additional public service dentists are allowed to be hired with these funds. Instead, existing overworked and demoralised staff will be asked to volunteer to work additional hours at evenings and weekends. We also understand from the HSE that the Department of Health is prioritising these funds for adult medical card holders rather than children or special care patients.

In 2022, just under 100,000 children were seen under the school screening programme, which is less than half of those who should have been seen in second, fourth and sixth classes last year. Of those who are being seen, many are being seen late, with an almost ten-year backlog in accessing services in parts of the country where children only receive their first appointment when they are in their fourth year of secondary school. In addition, and for the purposes of today's presentation, we have collated other evidence, which illustrates clearly how patients have been neglected over the past two decades and the unacceptable neglect towards patients and the hostility shown to both public and private dentists.

First, there are currently two-year waiting lists for treatments requiring general anaesthetic, with dentists saying they are being forced to choose which children they believe are suffering the most pain and to treat them ahead of patients who may have already been waiting months or years.

Second, the number of public-only dentists in the HSE has dropped by almost a quarter over the past 15 years, down from 330 in 2006 to 254 in 2022. This means that the HSE would immediately need to hire 76 dentists at a minimum to bring the service back to the level it was at 15 years ago. There are now barely 600 dentists actively participating in the medical card scheme nationally for adults.

In regard to recruitment and resourcing, our survey found that one patient in six is waiting more than three months for an elective appointment, while more than half of patients are being forced to wait more than three months for specialist care. One quarter of dentists are currently not in a position to take on new private adult patients, while four out of five dentists surveyed said they do not have the capacity to take on any new patients, including children. Some 80% of our members who currently hold a contract say they are no longer able to take on or see new medical card patients. A total of 93% of dentists say that they would not rejoin or sign up to the medical card contract in its current form during talks on a new scheme.

In the absence of any engagement on these issues, we prepared a strategic workforce plan in April that outlines the scale of the problem and sets out a number of recommendations and solutions that we believe can address the issue. Our analysis shows that we need an extra 500 dentists across the public and private sectors to adequately meet the needs of a rising population and to replace retiring dentists. Among the measures to improve the supply of dentists, we recommended significant investment and expansion of the two dental schools in Cork and Dublin, the reintroduction of a foundation training scheme to facilitate new graduates, and changes to rules surrounding work permits. The dental schools in Cork and Dublin have not seen any significant expansion or investment in decades and, fundamentally, do not produce enough dentists or dental practitioners to meet the demand for care in Ireland. We are cautiously optimistic about what the recent announcement of increased college places by the Minister, Deputy Harris, and his Department means for Irish school leavers wishing to practice dentistry here in Ireland and most importantly, what this could mean for patients and people who have been struggling to access dental services and treatments right across the country. A simple and more effective measure that the Minister could take immediately is to provide sufficient funds to end the need for funding from students from outside the EEA. That would effectively mean that more places will be available for students from within the EEA. It would be far more effective and less expensive and it would bring more immediate benefit in terms of dealing with the problem.

I checked the breakdown of final-year students in the Cork Dental School. This is not in my presentation but I had a chance to check. Currently, within the final year, 25 of the students are from the EEA or the EU and 36 are from outside the EEA. The reason we see this in both the schools in Cork and Dublin is because the students from outside the EEA are paying of the magnitude of €45,000 to €55,000 per annum in fees. They are effectively cross-subsidising the other students. The most effective step that the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science could take right now is to ensure that dental schools have enough funds in order that they do not need to reserve places for non-EEA students, which would mean that more local school leavers would be able to take up places in dental schools and, hopefully, more of them would be available to work here in Ireland when they graduate.

Dentists are beyond frustrated at the endless broken promises and false dawns promised by successive health Ministers and the Department of Health. The collapse of the medical card scheme is the perfect example. The Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, is the sixth Minister for Health to hold office since the Department walked out of talks on a new scheme, 15 years ago. It is astonishing to think that in 2023, an oral healthcare scheme that fails to offer the same standard of care to the most vulnerable and economically disadvantaged in our communities still exists.

Last year, the association supported an independently commissioned research report, prepared by Professor Ciaran O'Neill of Queen's University Belfast, that outlined a proposal to improve access to dental care for medical card patients. This would take the form of a voucher scheme, which would offer between €100 and €500 towards dental care and would have a total cost per annum of approximately €108 million and €232.5 million, respectively. For context, the spend on the medical card scheme in 2021 was €39.6 million, rising in 2022 to €49.4 million, which is an awful long way from the €86 million that was spent in 2009. The extra €10 million being made available this year is nowhere near enough to solve the underlying problems associated with the scheme.

I remind the committee that this scheme was established by the Department of Health in 1994, predating both the Internet and mobile phones. Perversely, it dictates what materials dentists can use and what procedures can be carried out. Only extractions are unlimited. Could members imagine having no clinical autonomy to make decisions that are in a patient's best interest?

It should not matter whether you are a medical card patient or not but it does. Imagine walking into a doctor's surgery with a broken leg and being told the only available option to you because of your socioeconomic status is amputation. A more cynical person might argue that the system is weighted towards cost containment over good oral health by providing an accelerated pathway to extraction for those who cannot afford or access the alternative. As policy makers, we implore members to join us in saying "enough is enough". Immediate talks on a better system must begin immediately.

Following the financial crisis of 2008, reimbursement levels to dentists were reduced and treatments available to medical card holders were suspended or available in emergency cases only. This has not substantially changed in the 15 years since. The Minister and Department, however, will say that he has increased funding of the DTSS. He will say that some limited treatments have been reintroduced and that the numbers of contracted dentists have actually increased in recent months but when you examine the expenditure more closely, you will see that what the Minister and Department are portraying is nothing but a glossy veneer on an otherwise rotting tooth with barely 600 dentists now operating this scheme for 1.5 million adults nationally. This is the equivalent of one dentist per 2,500 patients. I checked the HSE website yesterday. What it confirmed to me is that 80,000 fewer medical card patients were treated in the first half of 2023 compared to the first half of 2017. This is 80,000 fewer patients. The truth is that there has been no meaningful engagement with the profession on this or any issues nor with the Irish Dental Association as its representative. Legislation to regulate dentistry, which protects patients and ensures the highest standards of education and training of dentists, has been promised for many years but when the opportunity arose recently to bring mandatory professional education for dental professionals in line with other healthcare practitioners and international best practice, the Minister would not and did not support the inclusion of this amendment in the Regulated Health Professions Bill 2022. What remains now is antiquated legislation dating back to 1985, while the legislation regulating medicine, nursing, pharmacy, and veterinary medicine has been overhauled and modernised. I would note here that, despite the harsh message we have delivered today, we thank this committee for its efforts in raising this both as an agenda item and directly with the Minister.

As a profession, dentists have felt sidelined and ignored by successive Governments for more than a decade - contracted to provide an extremely limited and wholly restrictive service to some of the most vulnerable and economically disadvantaged people in our communities. We are the representative body for dentists and the only advocates on behalf of the patients served by dentists. Our members can deliver change and want to see better access to dental care for all the community but change can only happen through political willingness and we have yet to see that from Government. The recent vote of no confidence in the Minister by dentists at our AGM in May shows how broken their trust is in a system and service that has no capacity and no conviction to reform. As an association representing more than 1,800 public service and private sector dentists, we would welcome this committee’s support in pushing the Government to prioritise dentistry as an urgent national healthcare matter. We need to reform how care is delivered but we also need more dentists and dental team members to meet the growing demand for dental care as well as the huge unmet need. We need to see commitments, we need to see pathways and we need to see progress. Above all, we need the committee's support as a coalition of the willing to be part of these discussions and in developing the best pathway forward for everyone. As we have cause to reflect on the past 100 years of dentistry in Ireland, we understand that we all have a choice to either learn from the past and change or allow history to continue to repeat itself. We hope that our policy makers do likewise.

The witnesses are very welcome. They certainly paint a very stark picture about where we are with dentristy in this country at the moment and oral health in general. In his opening statement, Mr. Hourihan mentioned inappropriate reforms. Could he elaborate on what he means by inappropriate reforms? I understand there are challenges around funding and so on but what would be inappropriate about the reforms?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

The specific reference in my presentation was the suggestion that a scheme would be introduced for children under seven that would be delivered in private practice by dentists. No such scheme exists and children are seen through the school screening service. We say it is inappropriate because if the current service was properly resourced, it would allow all children in schools to be screened on three separate occasions in primary school. Where the service makes contact with the school, it ensures every last child is tracked down and screened. What has been suggested is that there be no attempt to remedy the problems. Instead the proposal is that money be put into a scheme where very limited treatments will be provided by private dentists when we believe private dentists do not have the capacity and are not the best people to do it. Money would be better spent on rectifying problems in the public service.

I fully agree with Mr. Hourihan. I suspected that this was where he was coming from. How broken is the school screening programme? It is my contention, and I am sure Mr. Hourihan, would agree with me that it is critical to screen and identify oral challenges in children at a young age. Are there children who are not being seen through the school screening programme? Are the delays resulting in permanent damage to children's teeth? If so, what quantities are we looking at?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I will turn to Dr. Robins to elaborate on the second question about what the consequences are. Since 1994, official policy has been that school screening should happen at three different intervals before the age of 12. Typically, it used to mean in second, fourth and sixth class. Based on the Department of Education's own statistics, we understand that there are over 200,000 children in second, fourth and sixth class ages. Last year, fewer than 100,000 were seen. Within that group of 100,000 children, some were being seen in second level so far less than 50% of those who should have been seen were actually seen by the school screening service. I will turn to Dr. Robins to elaborate what that means regarding delayed diagnosis and treatment of patients.

Dr. Caroline Robins

I will give the Senator an example from this week. I see it all the time. I treat a lot of children. I enjoy treating children. Treating children is a different skill set. I treated a ten-year-old boy this week who would have gone to the dentist very regularly. His mother would have taken him yearly to have his teeth checked. It was his first time coming to see me. Between the school system and Covid, the boy was ten and had not received his second class check up so his molars are hyper-mineralised so they break down. He is ten years old and presents to me. I am talking to his mother about having to extract the tooth of a ten-year-old boy. It is through no fault of his mother, who has done her best. The service simply is not there. I am consoling a mother who feels like she has let her child down and I am consoling a child who is only ten and has to have extremely difficult and nasty treatment. Members know what it is like to go to the dentist. Imagine if you are ten years old and I am going to have to do what I am going to have to do. It is not nice and I do see it. It just saddens me. The earlier the second class check up happens, the better. That is when the early things can be picked up and prevention can be instilled. When we see them when they are in sixth class or are seeing them for the first time when they are in secondary school, it is too late. The horse has bolted. The disease is there. We are fixing instead of preventing.

Is this situation reflected throughout the country?

Dr. Caroline Robins

Absolutely.

The witnesses spoke about the need for 500 more dentists. Is the recruitment problem that dentists simply cannot be found or is it that resources are not being provided to hire them?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

The vast majority of dentists work in private practice so they are hired by the practice owner - the dentist in charge. The problem is availability. The number of additional dentists who join the register every year is far greater than the number who graduate from our dental schools so we are always going to have to rely on dentists coming in from outside the country. They are very welcome and we would be in an awful state if we did not have them. However, there are work permit issues. Many dentists will be approached or will source dentists to work for them but find that the work permits rules do not allow them to work here. The reason why dentistry is a bit different is because in the vast majority of cases in private practice, dentists are self-employed. As I am sure members are aware, work permits are usually worked on the basis of a paid employment position. We are saying that these rules need to be changed. It is not just dentists. Dental nurses are not included on the list of occupations or professions that can avail of work permits.

The possibility of hiring dental nurses from outside the European Union is precluded. The single biggest source of dentists will continue to be from outside the State. We are never going to produce enough dentists from within the State. I come back to the point that if the dental schools were adequately funded, they would not need to cross subsidise by bringing in students from far away, with little or no likelihood or interest of working here in Ireland. If 90 dentists graduate from Cork who were from the EU or the EEA initially, the likelihood is that at least 80 of them would seek to work here in Ireland. As things stand, however, fewer than 30 will do so. While the recent announcement by the Government on expanding the number of undergraduate places is very welcome, that will take at least five years, at the earliest, before-----

Perhaps the committee could make some recommendations about work permits in order to see if that issue can be addressed.

With regard to the mentoring programme operated by the Dental Council, I have a situation where a Ukrainian trainee dentist is looking to be mentored by a dentist who has a practice. The process of engaging with the Dental Council on the matter has been completely frustrating the dentist in question. Even getting a reply to an email is taking an obscene length of time. It will be many months before the dentist in practice knows whether he is in a position to take on this person. I am not quite sure how this mentoring programme works. Is it that the Ukrainian dentist would not necessarily have the same qualifications as an Irish dentist? It just seems bizarre that somebody would be put through such an amount of red tape in order to be able to hire a Ukrainian dentist. In view of the lack of dentists, one would think there would be a complete open arms approach to facilitate this. Will Mr. Hourihan comment on the mentoring programme and specifically on what the association's experience has been with qualified Ukrainian dentists who have come here fleeing the war and who are ready, willing and able to work?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Just to clarify at the outset, the Dental Council is a separate organisation. Perhaps the Senator is aware of that.

I know that, yes.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Yes. What the Senator said about the frustrations felt around responses to queries and emails is certainly something that dentists would report to us. We, in turn, have relayed this to the Dental Council. The council has stated that it needs to be satisfied that those who present and look for registration have clinical experience and also that they have language competencies. They have a process for reviewing these. To be fair, relative to other regulatory bodies, the Dental Council is probably more proactive and is handling more. I say this from attending international meetings. The mentoring system is designed to allow candidates such as Ukrainian dentists to familiarise themselves with working in Irish dental practices. The Dental Council has said that it wants to have experienced dentists to show them the way and to mentor them. A number of dentists have already been approved for registration, subject to a period of adaptation by the Dental Council. We believe this is an appropriate way to go. We concur that there is intense frustration at the delays in dealing with the applications. It is something we have conveyed to the Dental Council. We support the idea of a mentoring system, as outlined in our submission, for all dentists regardless of where they originate. This should be a formal mentoring or foundation training scheme. We believe this is very important as well. Yes, we get the same feedback from our members who want to take on highly motivated dentists. As an association, we arranged a meeting with them within months of their arrival. We were really impressed by the Ukrainian dentists and we offered then every assistance we can. There are delays in dealing with queries that the Dental Council should address.

I will give the details of this case to Mr. Hourihan. Perhaps he would look into it.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Yes.

I welcome witnesses. I will start with the dental treatment services scheme. As Mr. Hourihan stated, that system has essentially collapsed. Fewer than half of the dentists who were in the scheme a number of years ago remain in it. My primary concern is that people with medical cards would get access to good oral health. My office has been inundated with people from across the State. Many people from my constituency have contacted my office. Given that I my party's national spokesperson on health, I have also been contacted by many others across the State. These people simply have no access to dental care and must travel various distances to find dentists who will take them. In whatever way we do it, we have to fix the problem.

I have spoken to the Minister about this matter on several occasions. He will say that additional funding was made available in the budget two years ago, along with some additional funding last year, to increase the fees and to bring back the scale and polish service. This is what was provided for. Am I correct in saying that the concern, if I can put it like that, on the part of dentists and the IDA is that whatever fees are in place are not reflective of the cost of the care? Is that where the problem lies?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Yes. For many years we have said that this is not about the fees it is about the structure of the scheme. The Minister introduced significant increases in the fees and expected that this would produce an increase of the number of dentists in the scheme and the number of patients treated. In fact, as we had warned him, that was not the outcome. As I have said, as an immediate consequence we have seen a small increase in the number of patients being seen, but since June 2017 there are 80,000 fewer patients being seen. It had reached a very low ebb and there has been a small bounce but an entirely new scheme is what is required. We commissioned research and we asked a health economist at Queen's University Belfast. He produced his proposals on a new way to deal with the issue. Fundamentally, dentists will state that their concerns about the scheme are the handcuffs put on them in the context of the treatments they can offer and the materials and techniques they can use. This scheme has been in place since 1994. It has not taken account of all the changes in approaches and techniques since then. There is a gap between medical card patients and all of the other patients in what can be offered by the dentists-----

Much of this dates back to a cut in the fees when the financial emergency measures in the public interest were introduced. It was around that time when there was a reduction in the level of services available and also a cut in the fees. Substantial changes were made. At that point, this was the issue. Mr. Hourihan is saying that there is a fundamental problem with scheme in terms of the range of services that are provided and that the fees are part of the problem. I am aware, through the document Mr. Hourihan submitted to the committee, that he is in favour of a voucher scheme. As Oireachtas Members, we all must be careful of what schemes we support or do not support. There may well be validity in what Mr. Hourihan is putting forward, but we need to tease out what a voucher scheme would mean and how it would work in practice. It proposes that initially there would be a €100 voucher immediately and then a vouch up to €500, and not all patients may need to use that. It does not say there would be any agreed rates. I imagine that if they were to agree to scheme like this the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and the Department of Health would say that there has to be agreed rates, and that we could not just have a voucher scheme where dentist A charges X and dentist B charges Y. This would be for accountability purposes. This is not mentioned in the report that was done. Is this something the IDA and dentists would be open to as part of it?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Yes, it is. Professor Ciaran O'Neill was asked to estimate the costs. He was not necessarily advocating to start at €100 and move to €500. He was just using this for the purposes of trying to quantify the costs. In fact, we have been involved in discussions over the years on a similar scheme, the PRSI scheme, which actually works on that basis, namely, that there is funding, that there is a limit and that there is a contribution by the patient. We will look at any proposal that makes care accessible for patients and is also viable for dentists. We do not have any issues we are unwilling to discuss.

Is it fair to say the current approach is to tweak the existing scheme, as was done last year to provide more money for fees and bring back the scale and polish? At the moment, there is nothing on the table from the Department in respect of a voucher scheme. It is a proposal from the IDA that is currently at ground zero.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

That is correct. Talks have not begun on a new scheme or a contract. The initiative by the Minister was very much an emergency interim measure to stop the further collapse of the scheme. We were promised talks would start in the second quarter of last year. We have not had a meeting in spite of countless requests. We have been waiting an awfully long time for those talks to start.

I value independent practice and the work dentists do and have engaged with the IDA on several occasions. There is a difficulty, however. When members of this committee are contacted by patients and medical card holders who cannot get access to care, we have to try to solve the problem. As there are not enough public dentists, we are reliant on independent practice to resolve this problem. There is a need to hire more public dentists but doing so will take time. They will not be in place any time soon to resolve this issue. I have made this point to the Minister. Mr. Hourihan referred to a lack of trust. I understand from where that has come but there needs to be a resolution for the patients who may have to travel for treatment, wait longer for it or go without. There has to be goodwill, particularly from the Department and the Minister, but also from dentists to try to find a resolution. Apart from the voucher scheme, which may or may not be a runner with the current Government or the Department and on which there have been no discussions, as Mr. Hourihan stated, are there options, tweaks or changes that can be made to encourage dentists back into the scheme?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

We have been involved in discussions with the HSE. In two parts of the country, namely, counties Sligo and Kerry, the HSE opens its clinics in the evenings to allow medical card patients to be seen. That is primarily because there are not enough dentists in Kerry, Sligo and the north west to see them during the day. It is very much a stopgap solution. We have had discussions with the HSE and the Department of Health and stated that if that policy were to be extended to other locations, it might help to alleviate the problem. It would require clinics and resources being made available, but private dentists could go in and work. That could be of assistance as an interim measure but, realistically, it would only ever be an interim measure and we cannot be certain how much of a difference it would make. We have discussed interim emergency measures but the thing we cannot understand is why, when there is an apparent willingness to discuss a new scheme, we are still waiting for those talks and do not have any sense of when they will begin. Ultimately, that is what is required.

Is the IDA's criticism of the school screening programme that insufficient funds were made available in the most recent budget and the one before it? Funding of €4 million or €5 million was made available but that was never going to be enough to roll out a comprehensive scheme. The IDA critiqued that screening programme not so much in terms of the number of children through it but, rather, in terms of what it does. I ask Mr. Hourihan to articulate the IDA position on that matter.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

We believe intrinsically in the school screening service. The problem is there are not enough dentists to ensure children are seen when they should be seen. The announcement of €5 million carried a number of terms and involved conditions from the HSE or directed to the HSE. It could not take on additional staff but, rather, only use the money to ask volunteers, who are already overstretched, to do additional work. It is a good scheme. What is required is more dentists in the public service.

I will make a final pointed directed to the Cathaoirleach. We again have a representative organisation before the committee raising issues relating to workforce planning and legitimate issues in respect of the need to train more dentists and recruitment and retention issues. There is no element of healthcare where this issue is not being raised. It is having a fundamental effect on the ability of the public system to deliver care. We are seeing it in home care, nursing homes, dentistry, hospitals, community care and services for children with disabilities. I suggest that when the committee comes back after the summer recess, we consider having a session on workforce planning. It is central to everything. If there is an inability to recruit staff, we will just be going around in circles talking about the problems. Based on the information that has been provided to the committee, funding is being made available to recruit dentists but there is simply an inability to recruit them. We need to have a serious conversation with the Department and the people who lead out on it. We need the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, and the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, to appear before us because they both have a responsibility in this regard. It is a critical issue to delivering good quality healthcare and we need to do a session on it. That is my recommendation to the committee. I thank the Cathaoirleach and the witnesses.

I thank the Deputy. It is a recurring issue in terms of workforce planning. It has been raised by members at each of the past four or five meetings. We can certainly review that when we are in private session next week.

I thank Mr. Hourihan for his opening statement. It paints a stark picture of oral healthcare. Anyone reading it would realise that the oral healthcare system is in a state of chassis. The witnesses can correct me if I am wrong, but the public oral healthcare system was in better shape 25 years ago than it is now. As Mr. Hourihan stated, that has a knock-on effect in the context of socioeconomic factors. One can gauge people's socioeconomic circumstances by the state of their oral health. This is stark. What has happened, and this is true of all aspects of the public health system, is there is a two-tier system in the context of oral healthcare. People will lose out on access to intervention at particular times.

What is the status of the school screening programme? It is a key factor in terms of proper intervention but there is a lag. In order to have a proper screening programme such that children can get proper intervention, what do we need to put in place in the next two to three years to catch up with that lag?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Oral health is probably the one part of the health service where there is a visible difference, literally, between a person who can afford to see a dentist regularly and a person who cannot afford to do so. That is the remarkable thing about dentistry. Dentistry is probably singular in the sense that prevention can resolve many problems. That is why the school screening service is so important. It means, first, a dentist sees a child at a young age and prevents problems and, second, all children, regardless of their means or background, are seen on an equal basis.

What needs to be done is to employ more dentists in the public service. Dentists in the public service are specially trained and focus on seeing children. Obviously, all dentists can see children but those who specialise will probably have a greater impact. There are difficulties in hiring dentists. First, permission has to be given to hire the dentists. For many years, dentists who were retiring or going on leave were not being replaced as a matter of policy. That has been relaxed but, unfortunately, when the HSE seeks to hire dentists, it simply cannot attract them to work there. That reflects several things. Apparently, the stress of working in the service, where one constantly deals with children requiring emergency treatment, exacerbates the problem. There are fewer dentists and they are seeing children in emergency pain-relief scenarios rather than visiting schools, preventing problems and heading off all those difficult engagements. In short, more dentists need to be hired. How can that be done?

That can be done by making the HSE a more attractive place to work. We have said to the HSE on countless occasions that it is not just about salary. It is also about the working environment and professional development. If, instead of preventing problems, dentists have to deal with pain relief and emergency treatment for children, it is a very different job to what most people signed up for. While most people will focus on children and rightly so, special care patients are also big losers here because the HSE is not allowed or cannot take on consultants in special care dentistry because the law does not recognise the specialty of special care dentistry. We have eminently qualified dentists working in the UK who want to come back here. The HSE cannot offer them consultant positions because there is no such thing as a specialist division of the register. At the stroke of a pen, the Minister for Health could recognise additional specialties. That would have a huge benefit for paediatric and special care dentists and all sorts of specialties which are recognised in the UK but not recognised here. That makes it particularly difficult for the HSE to bring in specialists, because by law, there is there is no specialty in paediatric or special care dentistry

Deputy Gino Kenny I presume, because of cost and because of the crisis in the dental treatment service scheme, more invasive dental treatment than ever, such as more extractions, is being done. The cost of root canals etc. is not covered by the medical card. Is that correct?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Root canal treatments can be covered by the scheme but many of the more expensive treatments are not. The single biggest difficulty dentists have with the medical card scheme is that there is unlimited funding for extractions but there are limits put on the key preventative treatments, like fillings, for example.

Dr. Caroline Robins

The best way I can describe it is that we are constantly putting out fires. The scheme never lets me cure my patients of disease. I am chasing my tail the whole time. We are faced with patients who have extensive disease needs. However, the scheme only allows us to do a certain amount each year. As a result, I have to decide which are the two most important fillings I can do this calendar year. The patient may need ten fillings. I hope by next year, I can do two more, and two more, and two more. By the time five years have passed, I have managed to do ten but we are back to the start and we start the cycle again. I am constantly dampening down fires where I have had absolutely no ability and there is no funding and no structure in place for me to actually talk about prevention. I should be able to get the disease under control then we can spend the money on the conversation on lifestyle.

Is Dr. Robins talking about children?

Dr. Caroline Robins

No, I am talking about children and adults. We are constantly putting out fires. We never get to the end. The medical card scheme does not allow me to get my patient disease free. It just cannot any more. It is a vicious cycle. It is no wonder that dentists are leaving in frustration. I feel like I am pushing uphill year after year but I am still in it. Perhaps I am a foolish optimist but I want it to get better, because it has to be about the patient.

Yes, it is a very stark picture, to say the least. I want to ask a question about people who go to different jurisdictions to get cosmetic work done. We know a lot of people go to Turkey and other countries for extensive cosmetic dentistry work. They probably pay about one quarter of what they would pay in Ireland to get similar work done. The costs involved are much lower. If people can get such treatment in Hungary or Turkey for half the price of here, they will do so. What are the witnesses' views on this? The obvious downside to people choosing this option is when things go wrong. If somebody presents themselves to a Irish dentist, having had work done abroad that has gone wrong, what are the witnesses' views on this?

Dr. Will Rymer

The most stark statistic I can give regarding medical tourism and dental tourism is that since 2019, nine Irish people have died while receiving medical care abroad since 2019, with two cases specifically regarding dentistry. We have no reliable data on the number of patients looking for treatment abroad. This used to be primarily an economic decision for patients, but increasingly, as we were discussing, it is becoming an issue of access. If I have a patient who requires two or three crowns, say, they can go on to a waiting list for a couple of months. We may not have the ability to get them in quickly as this is quite a big piece of dental work. If I type "dental crown" into Google or Facebook I will be bombarded with a series of ads coming from eastern Europe and other areas offering discount rates for dental treatments, often for huge courses of treatment. They usually offer 16 crowns for several thousand euro cheaper than what they would cost here.

We usually recommend minimally invasive dentistry to patients. For the majority of our day we are counselling patients about cutting the tooth as little as possible. We want to preserve tooth structure as much as we can. Every time we intervene, we are potentially reducing the life expectancy of the tooth and then creating more problems further down the line. Take a scenario where patient goes away with a recommendation for a treatment plan from me and they come back for their routine checkup. I can see that they have had either two or three implants and 16 crowns on top of them, or they have had teeth which I would have regarded as being healthy, removed and replaced with implants and bridges. These are often hugely aggressive treatments, which are very difficult to maintain so they cannot maintain adequate hygiene. As a result, they start to collapse after a number of years. Patients are often initially very happy with treatments. The offer they have received online is that we get to combine this knockdown price with a holiday in the sun, so it is very tempting for patients. Unfortunately we have to deal with the consequences which can be devastating for the patient. In many cases, they may go from a reasonable standard dental health to a very poor standard of health. We talk of Romanian and Turkish dentistry being of a very high standard, but the issue I have is with commercial enterprises, aggressively advertising in the Irish domain through advertising on online.

A month ago we had a series of interviews on radio and in the press, where we highlighted this issue. Along with our colleagues in medicine who do bariatric surgery for treating obesity, we are seeing increasing numbers of people travelling abroad. The following week, in the same print media there were advertorial articles advertising the very problem we were trying to highlight. We have a huge problem with tourism and vulnerable patients are being lulled into these attractive offers. Unfortunately, there is a time lag between people getting the work done and them presenting with the problems. It might be three or four years before things start to go awry. If a person has had a piece of dental equipment welded into their mouth, which they then cannot clean, it is eventually going to disintegrate. It is just a question of how long that takes.

It also impacts on the healthy teeth. Dentists have mentioned to me that if a crown or implant is not properly positioned it can lead to cracks in other teeth.

Dr. Will Rymer

In a case that always has jumped out to me, a number of years ago I saw a gentleman in his 30s who had quite a severe gum problem but with the right intervention and if he had seen the right specialist, he could have preserved his dentition and his bite for many years. This goes back to the point made previously about specialists not being recognised here. Unfortunately, the patient was tempted to receive treatment abroad and he had a combination of crowns and bridges, anchored to poor quality teeth and implants. Unfortunately, within a couple of years I had to fit him, still only in his 30s, with complete dentures

That happens from time to time. Patients present with those types of problems. However, for him that situation was grossly exacerbated by the treatment he received. He certainly ended up in a worse situation as a result of travelling abroad. There is absolutely no issue with the quality of dentistry in some areas abroad. However, with the commercial enterprises and clinics that lure people, there is often very little in the way of comeback. I argue strongly that patients need to look into the credentials of the clinic and the dentist they are dealing with. They need to make sure that recourse exists for problems to be resolved. Problems can occur as a result of any dental work. We always have to be cognisant that things can go wrong, and we are aware of trying to help patients through that. Dental tourism is a huge problem for us.

Dr. Rymer mentioned that nine people have died. Was that generally to do with cosmetic surgery?

Dr. Will Rymer

That is a combination of medical tourism, but dentistry falls into that. Unfortunately, we have had cases. A month ago, when we were asked to comment on this issue, it was unfortunately in the context of the sad passing of a gentleman who had been abroad to seek treatment.

I thank Dr. Rymer. That was very helpful.

I welcome the witnesses. Mr. Hourihan mentioned screening in primary schools, ideally in second, fourth and sixth class. He reckons there are 200,000 children in these classes, and 100,000 have been seen, including some of those in second level. Is every primary school covered at second, fourth or sixth class? Are some covered at second and fourth? Who decides that?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

There is an entitlement for all children regardless of what type of primary school. In recent years, because the local HSE dental service has insufficient numbers of dentists, they tend to end up seeing children only once in sixth class. I know this is the case in County Galway. In sixth class, some of the children are 11 or 12, and are only seeing a dentist for the first time. Decisions have to be made. If you do not have enough dentists, you have to decide what classes you are seeing. In more recent years it was quite common for the service to be scaled back with only two of the three screenings taking place. In most parts of the country, it is effectively only once in primary school. It has been a struggle. In some parts of the country, it is only until secondary school that there is any kind of screening. We have had examples in counties Laois and Offaly where children are only being seen for the first time in second year of secondary school, and in some cases only in transition year. That is not because a decision has been made to exclude certain schools. It is because there are not enough dentists to go out. All children in all schools are entitled to it and should be seen, but they are not being seen because there are not enough dentists.

Are things like adult braces and so on a direct consequence of inadequate screening?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Yes. Dr. Robins has addressed this, but the whole purpose of screening is to see the child early, have a discussion with the child, examine the child and offer advice. In many cases, hopefully, this is simply dietary advice. In some cases, it will require referral for treatment. If someone is not being seen until sixth class or in secondary school, a lot of the problems that could have been tackled early on are only identified at a late stage. That means, as Dr. Robins said, people will have their children referred in to have teeth extracted. In the case of orthodontic work, the problem can sometimes be so severe it makes orthodontic work difficult. The essence of dentistry is prevention. That is why the system was set up in 1994. It was a good and progressive policy, so that all children were supposed to be seen at three different intervals before the age of 12. That has clearly fallen away. It is largely not because of any change of policy, but there are not enough dentists in the HSE to do it.

Mr. Hourihan also mentioned the most vulnerable falling further behind, in particular children. He also mentioned special care and those with a disability. Certain children and adults who may have profound disability will have communication issues. They may require more complex care, such as sedation, etc. How have they been impacted? Are they prioritised?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

A small group of dedicated dentists working in the HSE look after special care patients. Their problems are compounded. First, there are not enough of them. Second, they are competing and fighting for access to anaesthesia and operating theatres in hospitals. There are no clear pathways, but equally there are not enough sessions available to allow children be treated under general anaesthetic. Usually, special care patients will need treatment under general anaesthetic to a greater extent than other patients. One particular problem with special care patients is that the specialty of special care dentistry is not recognised by the Dental Council because it has not been signed off by the Minister for Health. Were that to happen, it would enable more specialists and consultants to be employed to lead, direct and manage service for special care patients, which we advocate for in the HSE. Many dentists who have ostensibly been employed or trained to treat children are often now being asked to see special care patients and vice versa. It is completely inappropriate. The most vulnerable are falling further behind, whether it be children, special care patients or adults of lesser means. That is where the State has a role to play. We keep making the point that dentistry is the one area where a visible difference can be seen in terms of what presents according to people's economic means. It is so important there is a State scheme to allow people access their dentist. In the public service, the people who suffer the most are children from poorer backgrounds, but also special care patients.

Mr. Hourihan mentioned the 1985 legislation. Does that need to be updated for the Minister to sign off? Mr. Hourihan said he can sign off with the stroke of a pen. Does that have to be updated to create these specialties?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

No, the Minister could do that without the need to update the legislation. I will ask Dr. Croke to contribute in this regard. There are so many ways in which patient care is not being safeguarded because of the lack of legislation. These range from little things such as there being no mandatory requirement on dentists to continue engaging in education, and show evidence of it, to more significant safeguards where dentists have problems and intervention is needed by the Dental Council. It simply reflects the fact that legislation has not been updated for many years.

Dr. Eamon Croke

I will refer back to care for children and the need for sedation and general anaesthetics. This is a very distressing situation. I have experience of people who are profoundly disabled and in acute agony. That is the easiest way to describe it. A mum and dad are listening to adult children crying and hitting their heads against the wall and everything else. There are no facilities for them. It adds a real human side to what is being described. I was also informed last night there would be certain help in this from the private sector. However, I am told that for paediatric dentistry, general anaesthetics are becoming more difficult in private hospitals. It is a problem that will increase in the near future.

With regard to the legislation, it is not fit for purpose. I am not sure if the Senator is aware, but in October 2021, the Dental Council put in a good submission on changing and updating the legislation. The legislation needs to be updated from beginning to end. Because of the emergency situation existing in certain parts of the legislation, the Dental Council will accept more of a piecemeal approach. However, I advise the committee that it should advocate for a complete change.

The other issue when talking about specialties relates to the frustration of how we move forward and how we stop just treating disease. We need to start thinking differently. Despite the amount we spend on it, Ireland is ranked 80th in the world in the WHO ranking of health services. We are spending a lot of money and not getting results. It is clear that we need to change how we approach dentistry. We need to plan for the future. Specialties are part of it. Special care is very much part of it. Other countries such as the UK and France have described disabilities from the cradle to the grave. As members are probably all aware, we are living longer and our medical problems are becoming more complex. As dentists, we know that. More children survive neurodisabilities. The specialty need exists and I encourage the committee to encourage the Minister and the Department to address it. As Mr. Hourihan said, this could be something the Minister could do outside the Act. He has the capacity to do that. There are requirements for the ability to register and inspect practices and to have continuing education. They are headline needs for the safety of patients. I encourage this committee to get changes and to get the Department focused on a fit for purpose Act.

Will Dr. Croke expand on what the Minister needs to sign off on regarding specialties? I am sure that as a committee, we would be more than helpful in trying to move this on. Will he detail what exactly the Minister has to do? He said the Minister has to sign off on specialist care. Does that mean additional funding? Is it a title? What exactly is he signing off on?

Dr. Eamon Croke

He needs to recognise it. At the moment, two specialties are recognised in Ireland, which are oral surgery and orthodontics. This goes back to a 1980 EEC directive, as it was at the time. We have never moved on. Specialties are a result of increasing knowledge. We cannot all be experts but one can get experts in there. The Minister needs to recognise the specialties. There are between ten and 13 of them. In 2014, the Dental Council presented a case to the then Minister for this. That was never responded to. Within the profession and the Dental Council, the regulatory body, there is much support for specialties to be recognised, but the specialties include root canal treatment, special care, paediatric care, oral medicine and public health. A huge part of planning for the future is the public health specialist. It is recognised in the WHO strategy and somewhat in Smile agus Sláinte. One of the reasons legislation needs to change, beyond the Cathaoirleach's question about specialties, is that it needs to support whatever we plan to provide in oral healthcare and to ensure its sustainability into the future. We have the groundwork done and are not coming back all the time.

Dr. Croke might dust off that document from 2014, update it and send it on to us.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

We will. To explain further, the consequence of not recognising the specialties in the case of what we have just been discussing with regard to special care patients or children is that the HSE cannot employ specialists or consultants if there is no legal recognition of the specialty. That is a huge drawback in the public service. If it was undone and they were recognised, it would unleash significant potential for the service to develop. We know there are excellent, highly trained paediatric dentists and special care dentists, primarily in the UK, who would come back to work in Ireland. It means that patients know that people who present themselves as specialists are actually specialists. If people are specialists in root canals, gum treatments, or whatever else, there is a verifiable qualification or specialist division which confirms that to the patient, because the person in the street does not know whether somebody is an expert or not.

We will certainly follow that up.

I welcome our witnesses and thank them for their informative responses. They did not mention any effect that the lockdown had on the delivery of services. I would have thought it would have been fairly serious because nothing happened for two or three years. How would the witnesses refer to it? I acknowledge that the picture they paint is very serious. The dental service and orthodontics have been dogged for years by a lack of attention. For instance, in respect of orthodontics, it is not unusual to see patients bleeding from their mouths and so on while doing school exams, which is appalling. Nobody is available. I know there was a classification of one, two and three, A, B and C. Under A, a desperate situation could be dealt with. Under B, it might be dealt with. Under C, it was never dealt with and, therefore, people had to go to private dentistry. To be fair, it was available at a price, whether people could afford it or not. Will the witnesses mention the effects or impact of Covid?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

It is important to say that dentists continued to provide treatment throughout the lockdowns and pandemic period. They were under horrendous pressure. One of the biggest disappointments was that no support was given by the Department of Health to dentists who continued to provide care. While everyone else got personal protective equipment, PPE, dentists got none. That was a huge disappointment. It probably cost dentistry €60 million extra a year and dentists took that hit. The pandemic meant that not as many patients were seen as would otherwise have been seen because of the restrictions. Dentists maintained the highest standards of infection prevention and control. There were safe places for people to visit. Of course, there is a backlog. We have backlogs in the public service and in private practice simply because dentists had to manage their book and appointments in a different way. What tended to happen was that more would be done in longer appointments, but there were fewer appointments. That inevitably caused delays.

Looked at in a different way, and I invite my colleagues to contribute here, is that, perversely, one of the things we maybe had not envisaged is that people have a greater appreciation of the importance of oral health because of the consequences of the pandemic, when people were not able to get to see their dentist regularly. Their diets and habits changed. Some of it was purely appearance, the so-called Zoom effect. We all became very aware of our physical appearance from looking at ourselves on-screen, which we all had to do too much over those years. There were consequences and a backlog was created simply because of the new ways in which dentists had to work. Dentists were innovative but, again, they were let down by the State. We were promised PPE within seven days in May 2020. It never materialised. Everyone, including pharmacies, nursing homes and hospitals, was given PPE bar dentists. It is just another example of how dentistry is just not given any priority.

I wondered about that at the time. Of course, the time elapsed and it has a knock-on effect. Unfortunately, we were all under pressure at that time because of the lockdowns and Covid, and emergency upon emergency. It caused problems for us all. Regarding ongoing construction of an adequate dental policy nationwide, we are in a bit of difficulty. We only concentrate on one thing at a time. By the time the clock comes around again, there are many other issues confusing the screen, for want of a better description, and confusing everybody, to the extent that it is nearly impossible.

We have an increasing population, which is putting additional strain on the system. To get around to reviewing each cohort quickly, what is the best thing to do insofar as dentistry is concerned? I have been looking at the regional reductions pertaining to DTSS contract holders over the past four years: 45% to 50%, 30% to 40%, and 20% to 30%. I notice that the same locations crop up time and again. Could Mr. Hourihan shed some light on that? My constituency, Kildare North, and also Dublin North-West, Galway, Longford–Westmeath and Meath are all very densely populated areas and all have similar problems. In fairness to other regions, I will not mention them, but some fare better than others.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

The percentages are informative but we do not know whether there was ever enough dentistry in any particular region to start with. The Deputy's constituency is now highly urbanised in a way it was not ten or 20 years ago. Regardless of whether you are talking about a rural or urban location, dentists have left the scheme.

To answer the Deputy's question on what the priorities would be, we have a clear sense of what we would like to discuss first and foremost, namely vulnerable groups. A decision can be made to spend a large amount of money on a small number of people or a small amount on each person. We advocate that we sit down with Department officials to identify the vulnerable groups – primarily children, adults with lesser means, and special care patients – and agree on how they should be prioritised, rather than coming up with plans for a scheme for the under-sevens that is not targeted, for example. The latter may be politically attractive but does not represent the best use of resources. First and foremost, the Department has to come to us to talk. It drew up a policy without talking to the association. It made further changes and suggested more schemes without talking to us.

How can the delegates initiate discussions themselves? To bring something of importance to the attention of Ministers and Departments, there needs to be a structure within which one can operate on an ongoing basis rather than waiting one's turn, which may never come.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

All we can do is keep knocking on the door. We have not been sitting around. We have been engaging in discussions internally on how to be ready for the meeting whenever it happens. We have produced various documents and have circulated among committee members two that we reproduced recently: the workforce plan document and the plan to replace the medical card scheme. The onus is on the association to be prepared for discussions, advocate continuously and, hopefully, encourage the Department to talk to it. The Department will be required to say the matter is a priority and that it needs to talk to the association. That is the one thing we cannot control.

I note the requirement on the recognition of specialties.

Setting up a structure within which the association can operate on an ongoing basis means it does not have to wait forever to be called upon. Every Department receives hundreds or thousands of calls, sometimes in a week. Therefore, it is a matter of convergence. I, like everyone else around the table, have dealt with cases involving very intricate, miraculous and absolutely unbelievable reconstruction work done in this country. It was very effective and on time. There are only two specialists in this area. Maybe some patients have to be sent outside the State; I do not know. It goes back to a structured approach in this case and in many others.

Would it be fair to say orthodontics has been forgotten in this country for many years?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

It would be fair to say that there are many areas of dentistry that are forgotten about. The area that probably resonates and features above all others in representations to politicians and parliamentary questions is orthodontics. It is clearly the one area in respect of which people can see the obvious connection between appearance and good dental health. Naturally enough, therefore, it will be the area where the focus is. Dentists say it is important to remember the foundations as well as what presents when you smile, but it is perfectly understandable that people regard orthodontics as important. If you cannot engage with people, go for a job interview or eat in comfort, and if you have to worry about how you will be received every time you meet a person, it is natural that you will say orthodontic care is critical.

It is important. First of all, it is fundamental to children at school because of all the places they must go throughout their school life. Very often, coming to the end of their school life, they may still not have had access to treatment that was required five to ten years previously. I ask that a means be found to have children in need of orthodontic treatment examined systematically by one means or another.

One does not need to be an expert to conclude on looking at a person, regardless of whether he or she smiles, that he or she could have done with a little orthodontic treatment or treatment of some other kind a long time ago. From casual observation, I believe this is not the case in other jurisdictions to the same extent, although it does feature in many places.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Orthodontic treatment is expensive, as we all know. It used to be the case that the cost could be offset considerably by the tax relief. It was the case that the tax relief was allowed at the marginal rate, which was over 40% of the time, meaning the patient or patient's family could retrieve much of the cost. The tax relief is now restricted to the standard rate. We have advocated that, as a means of offsetting the cost to the patient, consideration be given to a higher rate of relief for expensive dental treatment such as orthodontics. We are aware that there is a problem with the public orthodontic service and that it is expensive to obtain orthodontic care from a private specialist or dentist, but one way of alleviating the problem pretty much immediately from the patient's perspective, although it might not solve it, would be a relief at a higher rate. This would mean the care would be more affordable, bearing in mind that the costs to the dentist are not reducing. If there were offsetting at the higher rate, it would at least lower the cost to the patient of going to the dentist for orthodontic treatment.

Sitting suspended at 10.58 a.m. and resumed at 11.09 a.m.

I thank Mr. Hourihan for his presentation. Before I came to the meeting this morning, I received an email from someone in Cork advising me that the University College Cork, UCC, dental school and hospital have not had access to the theatre in Cork University Hospital, CUH, since last March and as a result, no orthodontic operations can take place.

Is Mr. Hourihan aware of that?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I was not aware of that specific issue and I am very disappointed to hear it. As the Deputy knows, there is a particularly long waiting list in Cork and Kerry so that is only going to exacerbate the problems.

The Irish Dental Association has not been contacted about it. This is the first contact I have had on it. The email just came to me this morning from someone who had an appointment for surgery at the end of June, but it has been cancelled and this is the advice they have been given.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I was not aware of that.

Is any other facility available for orthodontic treatment in the Munster region other than CUH?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

If it requires access to a theatre, there is no readily available access. It depends on the nature of the treatment that is envisaged but, obviously, if the plan was for the patient to be seen in Cork University Hospital, then that-----

I want to move on. There is full planning permission for the dental hospital in Cork. At the moment, the dental hospital is in CUH and there is huge demand for space in CUH. Is Mr. Hourihan aware of whether the funding is being provided? My understanding is that the funding has to come through a combination of UCC and the HSE. What is the understanding of the Irish Dental Association in that regard?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

As the Deputy says, the sod was turned in 2019 and a site has been identified. The issue is the lack of funding. We do not know whether it is a combination of the EU and the Higher Education Authority, HEA, but somebody somewhere has to release the funds and that is the obstacle to proceeding with the-----

It is a health issue. Why does it not come under the funding from the Department of Health?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

It is an educational establishment, as a dental school, and that is what the problem is.

We have a situation where it is falling between a number of different stools and, as a result, nothing is getting done. It has had full planning for over three years, or close to four years at this stage. If it goes any further, the planning will have expired by the time they get to build.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I certainly hope that does not happen. It is a feature of the dental schools and medical schools that there is a role for both the Department of Education and the Department of Health. I know from experience of representing medical and dental staff in those schools that that is the way it has been set up. Either way, we hope the funding will be released sooner rather than later because the conditions in the dental school and hospital in Cork are certainly far from satisfactory right now. A new school would be very welcome and it would also free up space for medical facilities in Cork University Hospital.

Mr. Hourihan spoke about future planning in regard to the dental service. He might set out how he understands the numbers of those registered with the Dental Council, first, the total number who are registered as qualified dentists, second, the number working full-time and part-time and, third, the number who want to retire in the next five years. In addition, even if we open up the dental schools in the morning, it is still going to be five years before we have people coming out. It is not an area where we can wave a magic wand and sort it out. Taking the existing population, and given the population in five years will be different again, what is Mr. Hourihan's understanding of the number of graduates we should be producing here every year?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

There are a number of questions. The only certain figure is the number of dentists on the register, which is over 4,000, according to the Dental Council. That would include dentists who are not practising and dentists who are living or working overseas or outside the jurisdiction.

Does the Irish Dental Association have figures in regard to those not practising or people outside the jurisdiction?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

No, and that is something that we have specifically asked would happen. We met the Dental Council recently and we asked that it would assist in gathering information on how many dentists are in active practice. That is going to require a direction from the Department of Health. It was recommended about ten years ago in research commissioned by the Department of Health that there be a database. I cannot say what numbers are in practice, how many are in full-time or part-time practice or the hours they work. We suspect there are large numbers of dentists who are not working the traditional five-day or six-day working week, as would have been the case, and there are dentists who are specialising in different areas of practice. Without the data, it is very hard to plan.

With regard to the Department of Health, we have a Chief Medical Officer but we do not have a Chief Dental Officer within the Department of Health.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

We do.

What is that person's role in regard to all of this? We seem to be far behind in regard to forward planning. Should that be the role of the Chief Dental Officer?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

The Chief Dental Officer’s primary role is to advise the Minister and the Department of Health on dental matters. That is something Dr. Dympna Kavanagh has been doing since 2013 and she is essentially the chief technical adviser on dental matters to the Department and the Minister.

With regard to the number of graduates that we should be turning out every year from now on, what is Mr. Hourihan's view?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

We would see that the current shortfall is possibly of the order of 500 dentists. There is no way the dental schools are going to be able to supply even half of those numbers. As I said earlier, the one area that could be addressed pretty quickly is that, if the dental schools were properly funded, they would no longer have to seek to bring in dentists from outside the European Economic Area, EEA, who are paying the full economic cost of dental education.

In fairness, the Minister has said that something is going to be done on that, and that has gone through the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform with regard to funding. There is agreement by the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to create more places for Irish students. As I understand it, that decision has been taken.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

The problem is that, with the best will in the world, if a dental school opened today, it would be five years before a graduate would leave it ready to practise. In the meantime, we have a situation in the dental school in Cork where less than half of this year’s graduating class-----

My understanding is that the intention is to increase the numbers in Cork.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Yes, it is to increase the numbers in Cork but as the numbers are such that less than half of those are EU or EEA citizens to start with, the likelihood is that only the EU graduates are likely to practise here. If we want to actually increase the number of dentists in practice, we need to have a greater number of places for EEA graduates, and that is primarily Irish school leavers. We will always have a need to bring in dentists from overseas and beyond the European Union. It is particularly problematic right now because the work permits that are granted even, for example, to Canadian dental graduates in Cork, effectively mean they are unable to work here because the permits are only granted on the basis that the person finds an employer. In dentistry, private dental practices do not tend to employ dentists and they take on dentists who work as associates, as they are known, on a self-employed basis. However, if people cannot get a permit because they are being offered a self-employed associate contract, we are not going to be able to offer this to dentists from outside the EEA.

I want to go back to the number that the Irish Dental Association feels should be turned out. Even if it was planning for the next ten years as opposed to the next five years, what does the association believe is the number we should be turning out of our universities to ensure the vast majority of graduates coming out every year are based in Ireland and likely to stay here?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Essentially, what we need to do is double the number of places and also ensure that the overwhelming majority are made available for Irish or EEA students.

Mr. Hourihan is talking about over 100 per annum.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Yes.

Does he think that is achievable within a very short timeframe?

I know it will be five years before the end result of that will be seen. I presume the number of people coming in from overseas could be reduced by increasing the number of Irish applicants. That could be done almost immediately.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

As I have said, the most significant thing I would ask the Minister, by which I mean the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, as much as the Minister for Health, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, to consider in the morning is properly funding the schools so that the vast majority of our graduates are from the EEA, because they are likely to work here. There is no doubt but that the country cannot afford to plan based on all the dentists we need coming from the Irish dental schools. I am mindful that there is also a dental school in Belfast, whose graduates may practise in the Republic.

I do not see a need for that. If the demand is there, the priority should be providing people rather than having to bring people in from abroad for the long term. Therefore, is it not now time to focus on what we need here in Ireland as opposed to focusing on accommodating students from abroad?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

We are in total agreement with the Deputy but, with the way the population is expanding, this need will continue. There will also be dentists who want to work here and we should not make it-----

I accept that.

I believe the point being made is that there is a difficulty with capacity. The reason so many students are being brought in from abroad is that they pay for the running of the college. The argument is that, if there was greater subvention and supports for the college, there would be no necessity for places to be taken up by people coming in from abroad.

It is with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform at this stage. That Department decides to make money available to the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to create spaces. The big problem is that, if the colleges have already accepted applicants from overseas for the coming year, they are tied by that. We now need to fast-track this before commitments are made. I really think that. I do not understand why we cannot plan ahead in this whole area. There seems to be a lack of joined-up thinking between all of the Government Departments and the universities.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I agree entirely.

Did Mr. Hourihan mention that plans to establish a new college at some stage were put on hold? Does he know what is happening in that regard?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

There are plans for a new dental school in Cork, which would be-----

There is full planning permission for it. The question is one of where the funding is to come from and how it can be fast-tracked. Obviously, if the go-ahead is given, tenders must be invited and that process, which would probably take six to eight months, got under way. However, if you build a new dental school, you can then look at expanding the numbers being taken in as well as increasing the number of Irish students, people who are living here in Ireland want to do dentistry.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I agree.

That is something the committee could follow up on.

It is important that we get back to the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science on that.

It is Cork, so it has to be important. Is the Deputy finished? Yes. I just want to follow up on something that was mentioned and there are a couple of points I want to make. Mr. Hourihan mentioned that there have been no meaningful negotiations. In March 2021, I put a question to the Minister regarding the medical card scheme and, at the time, he said that he was in negotiations and was expecting movement soon. This was in reply to a question in the Dáil in March 2021. Is anything happening with regard to those negotiations? What are the stumbling blocks?

The other question relates to what Mr. Hourihan said about the 600 dentists in the medical card scheme. We know that dentists are leaving that scheme all the time. What does the Government need to do to encourage more of those dentists to stay in the scheme? What are the challenges dentists are facing? Why are they leaving the scheme in such large numbers?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Dentists are leaving the scheme because they are intensely frustrated with the limitations put on the treatment and care they can provide to patients. There is common agreement that the scheme needs to be replaced. There have been discussions on interim arrangements to tide things over until a new scheme is in place. I am concerned that might become the focus of efforts on the part of the Department and the HSE.

To answer the Cathaoirleach's opening question, the talks have still not begun. We are at a loss as to why that is. We can only assume it reflects the lack of priority being given to oral health by the Department. We met the Minister last April and he said that he wanted to see three-way talks take place between the Department, the HSE and the Irish Dental Association. We readily agreed to that. We are still waiting for a date. I was asked for a date and suggested some. We are still waiting for those talks to begin. It is incomprehensible to us why that is the case. There is continuous discussion and indications that this is going to happen and that there is a plan and a policy, yet nothing ever seems to happen.

When was the last serious negotiation?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I am not being facetious when I say that it was in 2008. The Department left those discussions and we have been waiting to resume ever since. That is a matter of record.

Mr. Hourihan talked about people leaving the scheme and said there are certain parameters within the scheme that are causing frustration. From the Department's perspective, was there abuse of the scheme? Were people doing elaborate dentistry work? Is the Irish Dental Association aware of any shady dealings?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

No. The scheme specifies what treatments will be paid for so there was no danger that people would go off doing treatments that were not covered by the scheme. There is a probity process, which we fully support. The HSE inspects and ensures that dentists who claim payment for treatment have provided it and have done so appropriately. That is a feature of the scheme. I do not believe that is a cause for concern for the Department or the HSE. There is a long history of oral health just not being prioritised. That is the simple explanation.

Mr. Hourihan described a blind spot in this regard. Would he like to elaborate on that?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

That was a phrase used by the Minister, Deputy Donnelly. In fairness to him, it was an honest admission at our meeting in April. He said that he himself did not understand why it was so but he characterised the Department as having a blind spot when it comes to oral health. Of course, we agreed with him. We hope to find a way to get around that blind spot.

The Minister agrees that there is a blind spot and that it might be a good idea to resolve this issue but there are no meaningful negotiations. Earlier on, we were talking about selecting a dentist. I do not want the wrong message to go out. There are people who have travelled abroad who are very happy with the treatment they got. Is there a sort of checklist people can use when selecting a dentist?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

There is an excellent document produced by the Dental Council, which is the regulatory body and which primarily exists to protect patients. It is available on the council's website. It applies whether one is choosing a dentist in Ireland or anywhere else. It suggests questions to ask and criteria to consider. It is a great resource for members of the public, whether they are looking for a dentist having moved house or relocated within Ireland or whether they are considering treatment abroad, which they are entitled to do. It offers some excellent information and a checklist so we always commend it to anybody asking which dentist to go to and what questions to ask. It is all there. The Dental Council has produced a very comprehensive document.

Does Dr. Croke wish to elaborate on that?

Dr. Eamon Croke

I will just guide the Cathaoirleach to the site. If you go to the Dental Council's website and hover over the heading "Patient Information", a dropdown menu will appear that will take you straight to it.

That is great. How does a family with a medical card contact a dentist?

Is there a list there?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

The HSE runs the scheme. If a person is having difficulty finding a dentist who is still in the scheme, they should contact their local HSE office and the staff will have a list of the dentists in the area who hold contracts. They will be able to set out who in the area sees medical card patients.

The witnesses spoke about the impact the challenges have on people when accessing proper oral health. Is there prioritisation within the public health screening? Referring particularly to schools, is there a priority for DEIS schools in the roll-out of that screening or is it taken on the fact that there is a dentist in that particular area? It was alluded to earlier that some areas are worse than others. How is that done? Is due to geographical location or is it is purely down to where there is a dentist operating in that particular area?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

The HSE is divided into 17 different service areas. Within the service areas, there is a principal dental surgeon. He or she will be aware of the schools in the area and will know what dentists they have to visit schools and screen them. I cannot say whether they have a system for prioritising DEIS schools over other schools. The policy suggests that everyone should be afforded screening regardless but I would understand why DEIS schools could and should be prioritised. As to whether they are, I am not in a position to say.

I will go back to the members now. I think Senator Kyne was looking to come in.

There are just a couple of issues I wanted to raise. While we ramp up places in universities, as Deputy Ó Murchú suggested will be done based on announcements from the Minister, is there scope to use retired dentists in their first, second or third year after retirement if there is not an age limit? I ask Mr. Hourihan to clarify whether there is. Perhaps this happens anyway. I am talking in particular about the screening in our schools. Is that something that could be considered? Is that something that would work?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

The screening is carried out by the public service and the public service would have general retirement age provisions. For dentists generally, so long as they are registered to practice with the Dental Council they are entitled to see patients. There would be no reason, because of age, they could not contribute to the school screening service. The issue that arises is a bit like with that of the medical consultant who has to retire at 65. He or she might be perfectly willing to continue working but there has to be flexibility within the employment rules and policies of the HSE to allow that to happen. It is not something that has happened but it is possible and it could happen. It would require the HSE to revisit some of its employment practices. A person's entitlement practice as a dentist is not linked to their age; it is linked to whether they have a licence from the Dental Council.

It is something that is worth considering. I will certainly raise that up the line. On education, we all know the basics. We try to further that legislatively, whether through tobacco legislation, sugar tax, the Healthy Ireland framework or different measures such as those. Could more be done within our school system in terms of education? I am talking about the importance of oral health and not just telling kids they have to get a filling or get a tooth out. I hear every so often about the consequences of other health problems arising from gum disease or a tooth abscess that is not taken care of. Is there a need for greater education?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

There is. One of the things we as an association do is run a mouth cancer awareness programme. Mouth cancer is an area where dentists have a particular opportunity and expertise to notice suspicious lesions to advise a patient. That is something we do as a charitable public education venture. It is just something we have done for many years and it is very successful. It has helped many people prevent cancer and deal with a mouth cancer diagnosis.

As regards education within schools, we would absolutely love to see that happen. If we had sufficient numbers in the public service, where not only were dentists able to screen children but were actually given the opportunity to address them as a group and give them good dietary advice, as well as parents, that is something that could be done. Many dentists do this on their own initiative. Private dentists will offer to visit schools and speak to groups of parents or groups of children. They are to be commended on that but there is scope for much more that can be done. It all comes back to whether one prioritises and sees the importance of dental health or not. As dentists, we as an association and profession do. We do our bit and we think more could be done.

Dr. Caroline Robins

I second that. I used to go into my daughter's school and give little talks. The health board also did that and came in with little drinks and things for them. It is very informative for them and they enjoyed it. It was good but I think we could go further. Beginning within school is good but we could take it back to the very beginning, when a parent is sitting with their child and the health nurse having that first check-up and their developmental checks. Those are very good opportunities for dentists or auxiliary staff, such as health nurses who could be trained to give this advice on things parents can do for their children. We are talking about a disease that is preventable. Prevention is better than cure. It is about getting that information.

A number of parents come into me such as mothers who do not realise that demand breastfeeding, while healthy, causes tooth decay. They think they are doing well in one respect but they have never been told what that means dentally. That conversation should have been had six years earlier when the child was in its infancy. Those little bits of information will do so much for those parents understanding what they can do at home with regard to cleaning their teeth or not feeding the child. For example, parents should test the temperature of food before giving it to their child because if the child has tooth decay, they could be putting bacteria into the child's mouth and creating a problem. Who knew that? It is little nuances and very simple things but some education at those early points would be about prevention and prevention, in the long term, is going to save the Exchequer billions of euro. It is simple.

I recall one of our primary school teachers in 1985 or 1986 asking us if we have brushed our teeth that morning. Maybe they had seen something on the television or something that prompted them to do that.

I know this is a sensitive area but there were issues in a practice in Oranmore, County Galway last year. I can understand that the witnesses will not want to speak on that and I will not dwell on it. However, the immediate aftermath of the closure of that practice meant the children had no place available. It was likely a capacity issue in some regards but because of the complex nature of some of the cases or patients being at different stages or perhaps because the practice had been paid upfront or whatever, parents were left in a very difficult place as regards where they would get care for their children. There was either a capacity issue or a reluctance to engage patients that the orthodontists themselves would not have seen up to that stage. I engaged with the Dental Council at the time and it referred to the 1985 legislation in relation to what was possible. There were insurance issues, there was reimbursement and all sorts of difficulties that precluded a satisfactory intervention by the Dental Council. Parents would have been advised that they would have to go outside of Galway or even outside of Connacht to find orthodontic care for their children. I know there are sensitivities that the witnesses may not wish to speak about but just in general, what do they think could be improved in this area? Does it relate back to the legislation? There is no reason to believe this could not happen in the future in another practice.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I will call on Dr. Croke to join me in answering this question but just by way of general commentary, and I am not talking about the specifics, there is no reason something of that type could not happen again in a different part of the country tomorrow.

It is critical to get in to prevent a problem so, if, for some reason, a dentist is having difficulty continuing in practice, there is an opportunity to intervene at an early stage and sit down to try to work out a solution, rather than wait for the inevitable. That requires a change in the legislation. The Dental Council will say, correctly, it is not entitled to proactively contact a dentist or visit a dental practice because the legislation does not allow for that and that, ultimately, dental practices are private enterprises. As an association, we believe there should be changes to the legislation to allow that, in the interests of the dentists, who may be in difficult circumstances, and of their patients, who will suffer as a consequence. We support the Dental Council in calling for legislation which will allow it to intervene proactively in such a scenario. Dr. Croke, who has experience as a former member of the council and is our president, will probably elaborate further.

Dr. Eamon Croke

Without crossing the threshold between representative body and regulator, I know the vast majority of the patients are now being seen in the Galway area, which is good news. I am also aware the Dental Council facilitated the release of records. That was through discussions. There is no immediate power there, as such. It boils down to discussions. There is an interesting issue here. I mentioned the need to register practices and practice inspection. In my time, I remember the Dental Council would get information from time to time on things going astray or patients being unhappy. It could be across a broad range of things. It could be the treatment. Many complaints I would describe as consumer complaints and they fall to the Dental Complaints Resolution Service. Some are definitely for the Dental Council and, if the council could come in, it could help. There are multiple human sides in this situation.

There is a debate into the future on how fees are paid. I could be taking fees in advance, drop dead in the morning and it could be completely outside everybody’s abilities. That is a difficulty around Galway but it is not unique in that situation, as Mr. Hourihan said. We have come across people who have come into the country and have closed the doors overnight and left. Change in legislation is required to get in there and deal with the human side of it.

The witnesses have presented an interesting and comprehensive set of documents and I commend them on that. However, we all know around this table that if we go to any Minister with a suitcase full of immediate and pressing issues, there will be priorities out of that and the Minister will set those priorities. Is it possible to identify the most fundamental and pressing measures that are likely to lead to improvements in the issues raised, without encompassing them all? Which are most likely to have an immediate impact and an impact on future planning in the context of service delivery? It might be easier for the committee to concentrate on those if we could identify the most important issues affecting and confronting the IDA so we can relay it to the Minister, as a committee and individually, in such a way that it gets attention it might not get otherwise.

I assure the witnesses from past experience, of which I have quite a bit in this business, that the road to the Minister’s office around budget time is tightly jammed with traffic. Not everybody will get the treatment they should get because of that traffic and the need to meet everybody’s demands, concerns and cares in a meaningful and respectful way. I ask the witnesses to refer the issues to the committee in such a way that we can use today's documents as our weekend reading and identify the immediate and fundamental issues, which will be used differently and will help us formulate policy now and in the future. There are two stages to it: the immediate one and future planning. Future planning is important, as we have heard from the discussion around the table and the witnesses’ responses.

There are many sensitive issues in the witnesses’ submissions and that committee members have brought up, all of which have an impact on the delivery of services, whether visas, work permits or whatever. We need to dig into it.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

We would be delighted to do that. The priorities fall under three headings. One is capacity and having enough dentists and team members to provide care. The second is focus on vulnerable groups of patients, which would be medical card patients and children. The third is the legislation. Some of those are budgetary and some not. We will be happy to elaborate and give the Deputy a concise version concerning prioritising what needs to be done and distinguishing between budgetary and policy or legislation. We will hopefully make that clear and concise.

There are regions where a delayed or inadequate response at present affects many services by virtue of population increases and other things, including age – I should not mention things like that but I did.

The other one and the most important is that meaningful negotiations be opened up. It seems bizarre that has not happened. We have been getting Dáil replies suggesting otherwise.

We have not looked at the IDA’s relationship with the Dental Council. What does that entail?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

We are separate organisations. We are the representative body and they are the regulatory body. We had a meeting with them as recently as five or six weeks ago. They are an organisation which has certain powers from legislation. We converse regularly with them. We have an appropriate relationship between a representative and a regulatory body. I speak regularly to my counterpart in the council. The lines of communication are fairly open and constant. We would like to see a stronger Dental Council given new powers. We are not protectionist or defensive about the regulation of dentistry. We believe more regulation is important, primarily to protect patients. We fully support that. I would like to think we have a good relationship with the Dental Council. We have differences of opinion and disagreements from time to time but that is natural.

We mentioned training. We have had correspondence over the years criticising the standard of training in Ireland compared to other jurisdictions, particularly Britain. There is some discussion about that. Does the IDA have a view on that? Is there a gap between training in both jurisdictions?

Dr. Eamon Croke

As a part-time lecturer in the dental hospital and somebody who has inspected the schools and was involved in setting up the reciprocal agreement with Canada, I can say the Irish schools are looked at with great intensity by Canadian and Australian representatives. We pass tests.

The groundwork has been done for reciprocal agreements with New Zealand and Australia. This is the standing of Irish schools. The dental schools in Dublin and Cork have a different approach to how they teach, but the standards there and the ability of students to be able to come out and practise as independent dentists are what the Dental Council of Ireland looks at. As I said, any time an inspection is done now, we have people who come over from Canada and observe the process. They will not sign up to a reciprocal agreement unless we achieve a certain standard. This is important in the same way to the colleges because of the Canadian students who come to them. Those students want to be able to go home. These applicants must do an entry exam and graduates from the EU must do the same exam to gain admission. This aspect, therefore, is based on the standard of the schools.

Would people undertaking specialties normally go to Britain to upskill? Does this come down to the fact that there is no recognition here? They are upskilling themselves. It would be normal in the medical profession, for example, for people to travel abroad to upskill, etc.

Dr. Eamon Croke

Yes. The advantage of getting out of one's alma mater cannot be exaggerated on occasion. The dental school in Dublin, however, has postgraduate courses that would consistently qualify for specialty if they were recognised. Some of them are undertaken based on being able to keep staff in the school. Oral medicine is an area that has a small number of people going through, but people have been brought through that course and trained, having gone through their dentistry and medical studies to start with. There are courses in oral surgery, periodontics, prosthodontics, orthodontics, paediatric dentistry and various others. I could be committing an injustice by forgetting some of the courses. There are, therefore, quite a number of postgraduate courses in Dublin and perhaps a lesser number in Cork. Again, this issue comes back to capacity. As we chatted about before, it is necessary to have chairs for people to sit on. It is not possible to put people around a bed in dental studies. It is necessary to have the required infrastructure in place. There must be the chair, the auxiliary supports and teaching facilities as well. The study of dentistry, then, has a limitation through infrastructure.

Okay. To sum up, we said we would look at the workforce plan. Some of the members suggested we would have a session on this topic. It has been raised in many meetings regarding aspects of the health service. The new dental college has been granted full planning permission. We will follow up on this and see where it is within the scheme of things, especially regarding the budgetary implications in this regard. On the capacity issue in respect of the college, we might also be able to follow up this issue with the Minister.

The Minister has a blind spot and I do not know how we are going to address it. I refer particularly to the health service. This is certainly an aspect we can address. We will have the Minister in with us at some stage in the next quarter and we can certainly refer to some of the issues raised today. Regarding the recognition of specialties, there is consensus that we will follow up on this point as well and ask the Minister to consider signing off on this proposal. From what the witnesses told us this morning, the current situation does not make sense. We will follow up with the Department in respect of where this situation is at and what the problem is. I specifically asked if the document the association has, which goes back some time, could be dusted off and sent to us. It could tie in with what Deputy Durkan was saying regarding this matter.

We will also encourage the undertaking of the negotiations promised. It does not make any sense that announcements are made without involving stakeholders, particularly in the witnesses' field. It is ruling by fooling, which I think is the expression used. It does not, though, fool anyone at the end of the day. When people hear an announcement, they expect they can go and access the services in question. When these do not exist, this does not do anyone any good.

I appreciate all the witnesses coming in. It was a useful meeting. Would anyone like to say anything else to sum up?

Dr. Eamon Croke

When the committee is dealing with workforce planning, I ask it to make a case for expanding the whole dental team. I work in the centre of Dublin and it is difficult to try to get dental nurses and hygienists because of the cost of living. We have lost fantastic members of our team because they cannot afford to live in Dublin any more. It is heartbreaking when they go. Patients miss them and we miss them. In that context, I ask the committee to try to make a case for the whole dental team. This is important.

The need for legislation was also mentioned.

Dr. Eamon Croke

It is hugely important.

Again, we can pursue with the Minister whether there are plans in this regard and if this is a priority for his Department.

Unless there is anything else, I thank the representatives of the Irish Dental Association for their engagement with the committee on the strategic workforce plan. A broad range of matters have been raised and the committee will reflect on these carefully. We will follow up on many of them and perhaps we can continue this conversation in future.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.56 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 12 July 2023.
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