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Joint Committee on Health díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 Dec 2023

Update on Sláintecare Reforms (Resumed)

The purpose of this meeting is for the committee to receive an update from representatives of the Department of Health and the HSE on the implementation of Sláintecare reforms. There will be a particular focus on elective hospitals, individual health identifiers and matters relating to the recruitment of consultants.

I am pleased to welcome, from the Department of Health, Mr. Muiris O'Connor, assistant secretary, research and development and health analytics; Mr. Bob Patterson, principal officer, elective hospitals policy; Mr. Niall Sinnott, principal officer, ehealth and health information systems; and Ms Sarah O'Hanlon, assistant principal officer, industrial relations. I also welcome, from the HSE, Mr. Liam Woods, national director, regional health area implementation lead; Mr. Damien McCallion, chief operations officer; Ms Anne Marie Hoey - no relation to Senator Hoey - national director of human resources; and Mr. Fran Thompson, chief information officer. While the Secretary General of the Department of Health was due to attend, he is unable to do so due to illness. I wish him well in his recovery.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members partaking via MS Teams that prior to making their contribution to the meeting they confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

To commence our consideration of the current position regarding Sláintecare, I invite Mr. O'Connor to make his remarks on behalf of the Department.

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

I thank the Chairperson and members for the invitation to meet with them to update them on progress in implementing the Sláintecare reform programme this year. As the Cathaoirleach said, I am joined by my colleagues Bob Patterson, Sarah O'Hanlon and Niall Sinnott.

As regards activity, 2023 has seen a large growth in demand for health services, a challenge that the HSE and our staff are working hard to meet. We are projecting total acute attendances at 6.85 million for 2023, which is a 7.5% increase on 2019, the last comparable year. Despite this, we are seeing a sustained improvement in both scheduled and unscheduled care performance. From July to the end of November this year, trolley numbers at 8 a.m. were approximately 20% lower than the same period in 2022. While this improvement is welcome, persistent problems remain in the emergency departments, EDs, of some of our larger hospitals, requiring continued focus and support.

Ireland was one of the few countries to see a reduction in waiting lists in 2022 and despite unprecedented increases in demand for care, we have seen continued progress this year. Some 48,000 people, which is 3.9% more than targeted, were removed from waiting lists during the first nine months of the year, which is 134,000 or 11.8% more than the same period last year. We are seeing higher than expected additions, with ons 11.8% higher than the same period last year and 21.2% higher than the same period in 2019. While we hope that this post-Covid surge dissipates, healthcare need will continue to increase as our population grows and ages.

We will need to find new and better ways of working in order to manage this demand. As my Secretary General has said at the committee previously, there is no prospect of continuing to treat ever-increasing numbers of sick patients in acute hospitals under our existing structures and pathways. While we have had significant investment in our hospitals since 2016, the increase in activity has not matched the increase in resources. Next year will offer us an opportunity to consider further how we address this productivity puzzle. Sláintecare offers a roadmap for achieving reform, integrating care and improving productivity as we seek to deliver greater amounts of care closer to home, and provide more accessible health services at a lower cost.

On elective hospitals, Sláintecare identified the separation of elective care as crucial to ensuring a permanent reduction in waiting lists and improving access for public patients. Projections predict an overall increase in demand of more than 30% across the public hospital network by 2035, with many major hospitals projected to experience an increase in demand for elective services of more than 40%. We need, therefore, new ways of delivering elective care. The Government has agreed the national elective ambulatory care strategy, which aims to ensure greater capacity and help to reduce waiting times. We will have dedicated, stand-alone elective hospitals at St. Stephen’s Hospital in Cork, at Merlin Park in Galway and in Dublin at locations to be confirmed soon.

Additional capacity will be focused on day cases, GI endoscopy, minor operations, outpatient treatment and outpatient diagnostics services, delivering an additional 977,700 procedures annually. The elective hospitals programme will ring-fence capacity, allow for scale and efficient models of care, and provide opportunities for reconfiguration of the public hospital network. The process is under way to procure a design team to prepare planning applications and designs for tender in respect of Cork and Galway. In Dublin, a site identification and assessment process is expected to be concluded shortly. The Department and the HSE are continuing to work on the business case for Dublin and a memo updating the Government on progress on this, and the overall electives programme, will be submitted soon. I am conscious of the strong support for these new facilities and the desire expressed by many, including members here, for them to be developed as quickly as possible. I assure members that the Department and the HSE are working to ensure their delivery as soon as possible, within the public spending code for such significant strategic developments.

Given the long lead-in times of such large-scale projects, the Minister has asked us, as an interim measure, to develop surgical hubs, styled on the Reeves Day Surgery Centre in Tallaght, in order to address current waiting lists and waiting times for day procedures. The locations in Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Galway and north and south Dublin will be a mix of refurbishment, modular build, and turnkey fit-out. Each will have a standardised, uniform schedule of accommodation with two operating theatres, two minor operating theatres, up to ten pre- and post-operative assessment rooms, 12 recovery bays and 22 stage 2 recovery bays. The new south Dublin hub is expected to be operational in the near future with the remaining five to be delivered over the course of 2024.

On consultants, Sláintecare quite rightly identified a new consultant contract as a critical enabler in reforming our health service. Since its launch in March, 1,193 consultants have signed up to the public-only consultant contract, POCC, 272 of whom are new entrants while 921 consultants, to date, have switched from their previous contract. Hundreds more applications are also being processed by the HSE. A key objective of the POCC is to extend the hours that consultants are on duty across the health services. This will enable the health service to maintain efficient and timely patient flow outside of typical office hours and at weekends. The objective is to reduce waiting times for people in need of healthcare by maximising capacity in our hospitals.

We also need to continue to grow consultant numbers to increase service provision in the public system. I have slightly updated figures in the next sentence, with a revised date. As of 27 November, there are 3,926 filled consultant posts in the health service, compared with 2,592 in 2019. This is made up of 3,493 posts filled permanently and 433 posts temporarily. There are currently 464 approved vacant posts. Consultant recruitment continues with 184 candidates invited for interview as of 9 November last, with a further 390 at different stages of the process.

On digital health, the level of digitisation across the health service is less mature than many of our EU partners, and we rank poorly in our ability to join up systems and provide healthcare professionals and patients with a singular view of patient digital health records. Digital and data-sharing capabilities are needed to provide integrated care. Investment in our healthcare technology systems must address both legacy infrastructure and a reliance on paper-based records and ensure a greater level of integration between health providers and the community. We also need to urgently invest in innovative digital technologies to better support our clinicians delivering front-line services and to offer increased access.

Work is under way by my Department to develop a new national digital health strategic framework for 2023 to 2030.

This framework will inform, guide and enable the HSE to develop a corresponding digital health strategic implementation plan. The framework and the plan will outline ambitions and targets for digital health and guide necessary policy choices. They will also inform funding decisions for consideration by the Government. The level of funding in digital health is clearly a key determinant in the pace of roll-out of digital health capabilities. Digital health funding in 2024 and future years will be used to develop more patient-focused solutions. We will focus on modernising and equipping the workforce with digital tools, building core clinical and corporate systems capacity, data analytics capability, innovation, cyber resilience and foundational infrastructure. For instance, through the delivery of a patient app and using virtual technology to widen care models in 2024, we will make the benefits of existing digital health systems more visible and accessible to the public. Throughout all investment in digital, our core aim is to enable efficiency, productivity and reform, to widen access to and support integrated care for our patients, and equip staff with the modern capabilities to provide a better service to the public.

The committee will be aware of the health information Bill. The Department appreciates the engagement and support of the committee with the general scheme of the Bill during the pre-legislative scrutiny process earlier this year. The Bill will help create a fit-for-purpose, modern health information system that will support the care and treatment of patients by ensuring their health information is available to doctors, as well as allowing for better overall planning for health services. The Bill will be a key enabler of the new digital health and social care strategic framework in supporting the development of an integrated health information system. The Bill is being formally drafted and Department of Health officials are working closely with the HSE and other stakeholders to support this work, which is expected to be published in quarter 1 next year.

I am happy to take any questions members might have.

Mr. Liam Woods

I thank the Joint Committee on Health for the invitation to discuss Sláintecare, in particular the specific issues regarding elective hospitals, consultant contracts and the individual health identifier, IHI. The chief executive, Mr. Bernard Gloster, extends his apologies for not being able to attend today. I will confine my opening statement to the three specific topics on the agenda.

The Sláintecare Implementation Strategy and Action Plan 2021-2023, approved by Government in May 2021, set out the priorities and actions for the current time period and is grounded in key reform strategies, policies and initiatives. Significant developments in line with Sláintecare priorities have continued in 2023. These include: the establishment of 96 community health networks and 24 dedicated clinical teams for older persons and those with chronic diseases, operational since 31 October 2023; progressing plans to address waiting lists for scheduled care, including targeted initiatives in each hospital, with €363 million allocated to the HSE and NTPF; the development of new elective hospitals in Cork, Galway and Dublin; and the development of surgical hubs in counties Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford, and Dublin. There has also been an increase in bed capacity through the delivery of new and replacement acute and critical care beds, with funded critical care beds due to increase to 331 by year end.

The development of six health regions with the recruitment of the regional executive officer posts is nearing completion. Options for both the health region executive management team and the integrated healthcare area structure have been developed and are under review.

Scheduled care has been reformed through the implementation of modernised care pathways that transition care from the acute setting into the community. Seven priority pathways are currently operational across a number of sites in specialties such as ophthalmology, urology and orthopaedics as part of a detailed implementation plan. The roll-out of Sláintecare integrated innovation fund, SIIF, projects in conjunction with the Department and Pobal continues. SIIF round 3 is at an advanced stage with award offers made to successful projects. A new Sláintecare strategic framework 2024 to 2027 is currently in development with an advanced draft to be presented for discussion at the next meeting of the Sláintecare programme board scheduled for 11 December.

The elective hospitals programme has progressed in 2023 following the Department's conclusion of the gate 1 business case process in December 2022. This includes work to further define the shape and scale of the hospitals and how they will operate and the initiation of procurement, IT and workforce planning. To advance the elective hospital projects in Cork and Galway, the HSE is preparing to develop detailed project briefs, design proposals, related business cases and other material for submission to the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform. This is in accordance with the decision gate 2 pre-tender approval of the public spend code, prior to approval to proceed to tender in due course.

The preferred site recommended to be brought forward in Cork is St. Stephen’s Hospital and in Galway Merlin Park University Hospital. The HSE is progressing the procurement of a design team, which will be appointed to provide the full scope of design services for the proposed elective hospitals in Cork and Galway, and the provision of services required to support the HSE with the preliminary business case for the elective hospital in Dublin. The first stage of appointing the design team, which is a preliminary qualification stage, was recently published on the Government's eTenders website. Market response to date has been positive with broad market interest in this competition. Responding to initial feedback, and to encourage optimal interest in participating in the stage 2 tender process, the closing date has been extended to January 2024. This extension will result in the appointment of the successful architect-led design team in April or early May 2024. The appointment of the complementary project control team will be co-ordinated around this timeframe. On the elective hospital or hospitals in Dublin, we are continuing to work with the Department. It is intended to update the Government on progress in Dublin and on the overall electives programme in the near future.

Timelines will be refined as projects develop and evolve, but the overall programme targets for the elective hospitals remain as previously advised, with the hospitals in Cork and Galway planned to receive their first patients in 2027 and to be fully commissioned from 2028 onwards.

Since the introduction of the public-only consultant contract on 8 March this year, 1,129 consultants had taken up the new contract by 23 November 2023, including 255 new consultants and 874 who transitioned from the previous contract. The Sláintecare consultant contract will enable the removal of private practice from the public system on a phased basis, which was a core recommendation in Sláintecare. The consultant contract provides for an extension of consultant core working hours to 10 p.m. Monday to Friday, and Saturdays from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. This doubles the hours during which consultant-delivered services will be available across many areas of the health service, including emergency departments, and will lead to a significant improvement in the delivery of care. In line with the Government commitment to substantially growing consultant numbers substantially the HSE can report an increase of 914 additional consultants in place since the beginning of 2020.

The IHI legislation was enacted in 2014. During that year the HSE implemented the technical infrastructure required to create the IHI register in parallel with undertaking a public consultation for a data protection impact assessment, which was published in February 2015. In May 2015, a data sharing agreement was signed with the Department of Social Protection for the provision of the PPS number data set, which was required to populate the register. In June 2015, a ministerial commencement order allowed for the population of the IHI register, to commence the creation of IHIs for 4.5 million people, using the PPS number data set provided by the Department of Social Protection. The system went live in September 2015, initially providing IHIs for all electronic referrals from GPs, and then extended to all electronic messages from GPs using Healthlink. In 2018 and 2019, significant work was undertaken with various national systems including the population of IHI into PCRS for all their schemes including medical cards and drug payments. Between 2020 and 2022, the IHI infrastructure was deployed to support the pandemic response. PPS numbers were utilised as part of the primary identification process where they were available. It enabled an IHI to be assigned within various pandemic solutions across the Covid care pathway including referrals, test results, tracking and contact tracing and for Covid vaccinations. The availability of the IHI, in conjunction with eircodes, across the Covid care pathway was vital for providing critical, up to date information to public health and the Government needing to make decisions on their response to the prevalence of Covid within age cohorts and geographical regions.

While work was suspended during the pandemic for deploying the IHI into non-Covid health systems, planning commenced for the 2023 schedule of work to resume rolling out the IHI to more health systems. In 2023, substantial progress has been made. All general practice systems are now populated with the IHI, which is embedded in all messaging between GP’s and Hospitals. All the statutory hospitals, with two exceptions, have also embedded the IHI into their patient administration systems. National screening services, including cervical check, breast check, bowel and retinal screening have also been populated with the IHI. All new patient-focused systems have been IHI populated from the start, including electronic health records, EHRs, in the national forensic hospital, the national rehabilitation hospital and patient billing for the new finance system. All Healthlink messages now have the IHI embedded into them. During 2023 the IHI was provided or validated successfully 88 million times across multiple systems within the health service. This resulted in the IHIs for 5.6 million people being provided to multiple health systems in multiple health settings. During 2024, the IHI will be extended to the last of the statutory hospitals and several of the voluntary hospitals, the National Treatment Purchase Fund and a number of key clinical systems, such as the national integrated medical imaging system, the national cancer system, the new nursing home and support system, the national renal system, the children’s disability network information system and the hospital medicines management system.

The IHI team will also engage with pharmacies and out-of-hours GP services so they can avail of the IHI.

The continued extension and use of IHI is critical for the health service. It is required to bring patient data records together from various disparate systems. It is critical for the success of the new health app due in 2024 and the implementation of the shared care-summary care record, which will complete its procurement process in 2024.

That concludes my opening statement.

I thank Mr. Woods.

I thank all of the witnesses for coming in here this morning to give us an update. I will first deal with the issue of the surgical hubs. When are we likely to have all of these fully operational with regard to the design, build and making them available? What timescale are we talking about for each of those?

Mr. Damien McCallion

The new children's hospital hub at Tallaght is open and we have seen some very positive outcomes there with 30% of their patients being seen in 12 weeks for day case services, to nearly 80%. So, we know the model works. Because they are on slightly different timescales I will give an overview of the sequence. The south Dublin hub, which is Mount Carmel, is a reconfiguration of the first phase of that and will open in the first quarter next year with the second phase mid-year. North Dublin has just come through the tender process, some legalities have been resolved and we would anticipate that coming on stream towards the end of quarter 3 next year. We cannot name some of these locations because we are in the tender process at the moment but that will come through and will close out in the next couple of weeks. Galway was an individual tender and that tender evaluation is just back. It will be closed off this side of Christmas. The plan is for that to open in 2024 subject to the outcome of that tender process. The balance of the other sites is a single tender that is currently in the first phase where the bidders have come through. Subject to that, the enabling works on those sites, including the site selection - Cork, Limerick, Waterford - are all parts of that tender then. The enabling works have started for-----

Does Mr. McCallion see any of those opening in 2024?

Mr. Damien McCallion

Some will. The ones I outlined - north Dublin and south Dublin.

There is a huge change in that we have had a 40% increase in the population over the last 23 years. We have a huge demand for services. Can anything be done to expedite the delivery of these additional services? We can talk all we like about the employment of more consultants but consider what happens if we employ more consultants. For instance, one consultant came from the United States of America and was doing two days a week of operations in the States. This consultant is now doing a half day per week here in Ireland, is totally frustrated and is talking about going back to the States again. What is the point in taking on consultants if we cannot give them the infrastructure? There is also the question of the use of existing infrastructure. Is there efficient use of existing infrastructure? For instance, in some places there are no operations done after 4 p.m. What are we doing about those issues?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I will take those queries in sequence. We know the surgical hub model works from the experience in Tallaght hospital. The timescales are there are. We are really at the final stage in relation to the tenders. Once we see what the market can build, that will dictate the start dates. On the other elements that are needed and the staffing, it is some 100 staff per unit. All of that has been worked through so we can actually have the staff there when the units are constructed. The IT equipping and so on is all being advanced. A standard model is being used to make sure we get there as quickly as possible. Ultimately the final date would be determined by what we can get from the market with construction. As I said, south Dublin and north Dublin-----

In the remaining period of time there is a problem in that some theatres are not operating after 4 p.m., as I said. We have already had the Secretary General of the Department of Health telling us the number of people employed in hospital services increased by 36%, but the actual number of people being seen and treated in hospitals in some cases is as low as 10%, and in some as high as 20%, but not comparable to the number of staff employed. How can we get a better return in relation to the infrastructure in place and the staff?

Mr. Damien McCallion

On the second part of the Deputy's question, there are a couple of things. This year we have seen substantial growth of nearly 12% on our activity versus 2022. A lot of that is through evening sessions, weekends and various systems to try to maximise what we have at the moment. Separately, through our chief clinical officer a theatre improvement programme is being run across a number of hospitals to see if we can optimise using what are called lean management techniques to try to see what we can do to get more out of the resources we have notwithstanding the pressures on the emergency care side.

To summarise, the hubs will start to come on through 2024. We have one open, one is starting in the first quarter and we are going through the various phases, but the market will dictate the final dates. We know that model works.

On the Deputy's point on activity, we have seen substantial growth this year in the activity across all specialties and across outpatient, inpatient and day cases. That 12% growth is done through a variety of means. Lastly, theatre utilisation is really important because that is about trying to see how can we get more out of what we have at the moment.

I will raise one specific point with regard to South Infirmary Victoria University Hospital in Cork. There are two new theatres for ophthalmology and a new outpatients clinic, but there is still no agreement about the transfer of ophthalmology from Cork University Hospital to South Infirmary Victoria University Hospital, and no progress has been made. As a result, the theatres and the outpatients clinic are not being used effectively. Why have we not made any progress on that whole issue?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I am familiar with the ophthalmology issue. The CEO of the south-west group is actively working on that to resolve the issues that surround emergency-----

That is not the question. Nothing has happened. Absolutely nothing has happened.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I can assure the Deputy, having spoken to the CEO, that he is actively trying to close that issue out. I am happy to revert specifically on where that is at in terms of resolving it.

We have lost time. We are putting money into infrastructure and then finding it is not being used appropriately. A huge number of people are having to travel to the North for ophthalmology and are travelling outside the State for ophthalmology and yet here we are. It was flagged up over two years ago that this was to happen yet here we are two years later with under-utilisation of a brand new facility that has been built.

Mr. Damien McCallion

Perhaps I can come back specifically to the Deputy on where that is at but I can assure him it is being resolved.

I will make one point on ophthalmology. There was a significant amount of work with the model developed that brought hospital and community together in ophthalmology to try to maximise the service across both, because there were waiting lists in both community and hospital. Our chief clinical officer has developed a modernised pathway for ophthalmology. This has been rolled out across the east coast and it is intended to roll it out through the rest of the country also. There is a significant amount of work in that space.

I will move on to the issue of the elective hospital. I understood - it was said here by the Minister for Health a number of months ago - that we would expect to be going for planning by October 2023. However, we do not even have a design team appointed. Even if we appoint a design team at the end of January, when can we expect to have a design for the new elective hospital? When are we really talking about going to planning? We were actually told - I have the record of it inside here - by the Minister that we would be going for planning in October 2023.

Mr. Damien McCallion

With the process at the moment - the planning, and the fall-out of that - we are at the pre-tender approval stage, where the detailed brief is developed. There are two tenders out at the moment: one is for the advisory services and the other is for the architectural services. That process will take the bulk of 2024 for the detailed design. That is the next stage in the process and is part of the public procurement gateway.

We have had a population increase of 40%. We are talking about building a new elective hospital. If we went out to the private sector they would have it done and dusted in three years. At the rate we are going we will not see this hospital for at least five years. We are under huge pressure in all of the core costs. We need additional beds. We have a whole lot of problems where we have consultants employed who are not using it to full capacity because they do not have operating space and even if they do have operating space they do not have the beds available to care for patients after the operation. I do not understand why this project is now going to take five years.

Mr. Damien McCallion

With regard to going through the public procurement process and the public capital programmes all I can say to the Deputy is that the timescale we have is still on track, as my colleague said, for the end of 2027 for the first patient in 2028, for the Cork and Galway projects. In the meantime we will be advancing-----

Does Mr. McCallion accept that given the increase in population and the number of people in employment increasing, the timescale within the Department and the HSE is no longer adequate to deal with the demands on the service?

There is an additional problem with the growth in population among the older age group. It will be 1 million people within the next five years. We are not going fast enough in the delivery of services and the delivery of capacity. We can employ all we like until such time as we have the infrastructure for those people to work within the system. I do not believe we are dealing fast enough with that.

We need to put new infrastructure in place, and we need to do so very fast.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I do not disagree with the Deputy about the demography, the demands and the need to accelerate it. One of the reasons for the surgical hubs is that they can hit the ground quicker. For example, we are paralleling the enabling works. The site selection was done earlier. The process around the tenders has been expedited for those programmes. Subject to the construction period, we will see those coming on stream next year. They will make a huge difference-----

Is that giving an excuse for a delay with the elective hospitals?

Mr. Damien McCallion

No, they are not related.

That seems to be what is happening.

Mr. Damien McCallion

No.

We were definitely led to believe that planning for elective hospitals would go in by October 2023. Now, the way we are talking, they will not even be in for planning by October 2024.

Mr. Damien McCallion

There is no impact between the two. I can assure the Deputy of that. There are separate teams working on each. The hubs are being progressed in parallel with the elective hospital work. Obviously, their scale is much bigger, but the hubs are a-----

Does Mr. McCallion not agree that there is now a need to see how we can expedite these projects for delivery? The old system of doing it is not working. It is just not working. We are not dealing with the growth in population, the demand for services, and the changing demography of the population.

Mr. Damien McCallion

From the HSE's perspective, we are obliged to follow the public spending code on capital projects and that is what we are trying to work through. On some of the smaller projects, such as the surgical hubs, we managed to expedite those because their scale is smaller. We know they are effective in the short term at reducing one particular aspect of day-case working for certain specialties, based on our experience in Tallaght. That is why those have been expedited. I accept the point that the demography is going to create more challenges for us in terms of demand. It is important that we do everything we can to fast-track big capital projects. Again, we must work within the standards that are set out in the code.

Have public private partnerships been considered for any of the projects we are talking about?

Mr. Damien McCallion

Colleagues in the Department may want to comment on that from a policy point of view. Certainly, at the moment, the programme is to work on a public capital project. We will look at options for how it is operated and there are possibilities within that, but that work that is ongoing in parallel with the construction piece.

I will move on to Deputy Cullinane.

I will pick up on the theme of the elective hospitals. I will go first to Mr. O'Connor. Why is it taking so long to progress these? As Deputy Burke said, we have had numerous conversations with the Minister for Health about the need to pick up the pace in relation to elective hospitals. We know the elective hospitals will reform the health services. I use the word "Reform" with a capital "R", in many ways, because they will separate scheduled from unscheduled care. In my view, they will play their part in removing private care from public hospitals. They were a big, central part of Sláintecare. Why is the case that as we meet today we are still only at the business case stage for Dublin and the design stage for the other two? What is holding it up?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

As Mr. McCallion said, we have to operate within the public spending code. In that context, we have to observe all the obligations and requirements relating to pre-tender approval, etc. We are keen to progress this as fast as possible. It is a priority capital development and there is progress in respect of Cork, Galway and Dublin.

Mr. Bob Patterson

One of the key issues here is the scale of the programme. This is a very important national programme. If you look at the size of the facilities across the three locations in Cork, Dublin and Galway, there are 42 operating theatres, 42 endoscopy suites and 48 minor operating theatres. We are looking at 1 million procedures carried out and patients seen every year. We are looking at a massive project and that does take time to deliver, I am afraid.

We all know it takes time to deliver, but it should not take as long as it is taking. I refer even to the response that I have just gotten in relation to the constraints of the public spending code. We have to call out the feet-dragging on this issue, as far as I can see. There are no excuses as to why these projects are not further down the line, given the commitments that have been made by Ministers, as well as the fact that everybody on this committee wants these hospitals to be built. Across the political system, there is agreement that this needs to be done. I have picked up within the HSE - and I am saying this very clearly and bluntly - that when the surgical hubs are in place they may require a shift in thinking in relation to elective hospitals. Mr. McCallion has said that is not the case, but we have to clear that the surgical hubs will be nowhere near the scale of what these elective hospitals will do. They are key and central to reforming the health service and separating scheduled from unscheduled care. We again possibly going into a difficult winter. As the representatives know, the first casualty of overcrowding in emergency departments is through the cancellation of elective procedures. We are facing that again. That will again create problems for waiting lists and patients. We all know why we need them. We need a bit more of an explanation as to why, as we sit here today, we are still only at a business case stage for Dublin where no sites have been identified, and design stage for the other two.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I concur with the Deputy about the need to separate scheduled and unscheduled care, as he says-----

No, answer the question I put about why it has taken so long. Why is it taking so long? What is causing the delays in the delivery of this project? If the Minister is of the view that it should have been done earlier and if he is saying to us that he anticipated that we would have been much further down the line at this point in time, why is it the case that we are not?

Mr. Damien McCallion

There is the scale of the two elective hospitals relative to the hubs. I will clarify one point. I mentioned earlier that they are not impacting each other, and that is because there are two separate teams are working on them, so the timescales are not there. As the Deputy says, we have taken cognisance in the elective design of the work that can go through the hubs, albeit the scale of the elective hospitals is much greater.

On the point about the elective hospitals programme, a significant amount of work is involved to get to the point of pre-tender design, which we are working through at the moment. We will appoint the firm that will work through the detail that is needed on that. It is a significant process and it does take time. We have been through this and challenged it even with our own estates colleagues about how much work there is and how we can shorten it as best as we can. Yet, it is a significant amount of work. It is not just a matter of the building design, but the operating model, IT, estates and equipping. There is a whole range of services, such as laboratory services, radiology services, etc. All of that takes a significant amount of work to take it to that next stage. That is the pre-tender approval stage under the public spending code.

I would be amazed if these hospitals were completed, or if the first patients were to be seen in 2027. Given our experience of building hospitals, I would be amazed if the doors were opened by then. We see this with the children's hospital. We have to look at the bandwidth in the system as well, because the national maternity hospital will come very quickly. That will take a lot of planning from HSE estates, the Department and the HSE. I understand and appreciate that. Yet, I want to put it on the record of the committee that I am unhappy with the pace of delivery of these elective hospitals. I see them as central to delivering one of the core tenets of Sláintecare and we are a long way away from where we should be.

I want to move on to another element of the opening statement. It relates to the area of digital health. I will go first to Mr. O'Connor. On one of the previous occasions on which he was before the committee, we spoke about electronic patient records and where they will be. Is it the case that the first step along this journey will be what are called summary care records? When can we envisage that to be in place? What is the timeframe for that?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

The e-health strategy and the refreshment of the strategic framework is to develop a capability for the sharing of care records across the HSE and beyond the GP and all aspects of the health and social care system. A shared care record team is in place and active in the HSE to develop that programme.

As the Deputy is aware, in parallel, there is the health information Bill, which provides a clear legislative base and establishes a clear duty to share health information where there is a duty to care. The health information Bill provides very specifically in section 2 for a summary care record. The details-----

I have a follow-up question.

From Mr. O'Connor's best estimation, when would he estimate that summary care records will be in place? That is the first step. We want to get to a point where we have electronic patient records. What is Mr. O'Connor's best estimation as to what year we can get to that across the health service?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

It is hard to put a timeframe on it. The Department and the HSE-----

In broad terms, are we talking five, seven or ten years?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

No, three, I would think.

Mr. Fran Thompson

At the moment, procurement is under way and we expect it will be complete in quarter 2 or early quarter 3 of next year. Implementation will be during 2025 and the first go-live, so-called, will be in quarter 1 of 2026.

That is for what? For summary care?

Mr. Fran Thompson

That is for summary care.

For full electronic patient records?

Mr. Fran Thompson

For full electronic patient care records, at the moment we are in procurement for our ICCMS, which is our community. We have a business case, which is just finished. We said we would draft that this year. It is nearly complete.

Is that within a three-year timespan as well, or will that be longer?

Mr. Fran Thompson

It will be longer, absolutely.

Will it be five years?

Mr. Fran Thompson

It will be at least five to seven years.

Regarding this patient app that Mr. O'Connor mentioned in his opening statement, will that include pathways for patients, signposting where people should go? I have travelled around the country a lot over the past year and met a lot of hospital managers, consultants and front-line healthcare staff, and I am conscious they have told me there is a lot more to be done to clearly signpost pathways for patients. There is confusion about what different elements of the health services do, from model 2 hospitals to model 4 hospitals, acute, medical assessment units, minor injuries units, emergency departments, where people should go and so on. Will that be part of the patient app that has been referred to?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

I might bring Mr. Thompson back in again.

Mr. Fran Thompson

Yes. There are three parts to the app. The first is around having a digital wallet with identities that would hold your medical card, your GMS card. The second part is around us surfacing data we hold, and the third part is around signposting. Those three elements will go live in-----

Will that be linked to the summary care record?

Mr. Fran Thompson

Yes, it will, absolutely.

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

That will be the platform on which the summary care record will be made available to us all as individuals.

Okay. I thank the witnesses.

The witnesses are now telling us that it will be at least ten years since the Sláintecare proposals for elective hospitals before the first hospital will be built and operating. Is that not the case? That will be in Galway, and it will be at least ten years. That is just shocking. The proposal was based on the experience in Scotland where a decision was taken by NHS Scotland to purchase a private hospital and bring it into use for elective purposes. Then they immediately decided to build a second elective hospital. What is going on?

You cannot help thinking that these surgical hubs are actually a substitution and that is the thinking somewhere. How could it possibly take so long? I am sick and tired of inquiring about the proposed elective hospital for Dublin. Then we are told that there are going to be two. We still have not heard any information about the first site for a Dublin hospital, even though there was a very suitable site located beside a national hospital in the Dublin area close to the M50. We were told that was being given serious consideration. What on earth has gone on with regard to the site for the Dublin hospital? Can somebody answer that question? Why is it taking so long? It is at least a year since we were told that decisions would be taken shortly. I have been tracking this and I am very interested in it. I have been tracking it with regard to Dublin, and each time I am told that decisions will be taken shortly. The Department had that again in its text this morning. What is going on?

Mr. Liam Woods

The Deputy is right that 2017 through to 2027 and 2028 was the timescale in Sláintecare for the opening of elective hospitals, so that is a ten-year period, with the exception that Covid-19 happened in between. That is not an excuse but I am just noting that it happened.

The position on Dublin, as far as I am aware, is that a briefing is going to go to Government on that. That is included in our papers, and the actual date for-----

Mr. Liam Woods

My colleagues in the Department might answer that.

Mr. Bob Patterson

Early in the new year.

Okay. The last time, when Mr. Watt was in here, he said it would be very shortly, in the coming weeks. He said that in September. When I tried to press him, he said it would probably be just after the budget. Now the Department is saying sometime next year. What is delaying it?

Mr. Bob Patterson

There is nothing delaying it. We are continuing-----

Has a site been selected?

Mr. Bob Patterson

I cannot say that at the moment.

Who is in charge of this? The witnesses are all, nearly, the most senior people in the Department. Has the site been selected for one or both of the Dublin hospitals?

Mr. Bob Patterson

I can say that the site selection process is ongoing.

Hang on a second. Will Mr. Patterson please speak in straightforward language? We were told by the Secretary General that the decision would be taken just after the budget, and Mr. Patterson is saying now that the site selection process is ongoing. What on earth does that mean?

Mr. Bob Patterson

A decision on sites would be one for the Government to take.

As far as Mr. Patterson is concerned, has the site been selected?

Mr. Bob Patterson

We have been engaged on a number of sites in the Dublin area.

We cannot operate on the basis of this kind of doublespeak, with all due respect. We need decisions taken. When we are told something, we need there to be a follow-through on it. For at least a year we have been told that the decision will be taken shortly.

Mr. Bob Patterson

All I can say at this stage is that it will be brought to Government early in the new year.

On these surgical hubs, it was said that the north Dublin one is a turnkey solution. Can somebody explain exactly what that is and where it is going to be?

Mr. Damien McCallion

Basically, one is a modular option, or the other is where we procure an existing building, which is what happened in Tallaght, and that will be adapted-----

Is Mr. McCallion saying that the north Dublin one will be an existing building?

Mr. Damien McCallion

Yes. It is going to be adapted. The contract piece is going through at the moment so I cannot name the exact location but it is coming close to conclusion.

When will that be announced?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I would say within weeks. I hope to have it out this side of Christmas, so it is very close to conclusion. The tender is complete.

It is a strong view of all of us that these are not a substitute for elective hospitals. The whole idea of elective hospitals is that they would mirror what happens in the private sector. The sports clinic in Santry is an example. It is a box. It is about volume and getting throughput of patients at speed. That is what the aim is. Why has the HSE not considered purchasing an existing facility?

Mr. Damien McCallion

The one in north Dublin is taking a facility and adapting it from what is there.

I am not talking about the surgical hubs. I am talking about the elective hospitals.

Mr. Damien McCallion

At a policy level, the commitment is to construct these so that they are bespoke. As the Deputy says, there is a common design for all four, so it is to try to expedite, notwithstanding the concerns the Deputy has raised with regard to the timeframes. On the scale of what we are looking at, my understanding is that assessment was undertaken as part of the process, and the scale of what we are looking at with regard to size is very significant. It just is not there in the market with regard to adaptation. The hubs are smaller so it is easier to procure something that is of that size.

Has the HSE looked at existing facilities that could be purchased?

Mr. Bob Patterson

In the course of the preliminary business case process, which was approved by Government last December, the idea of purchasing a private site was looked at in the PBC and was rejected on the basis that a site was unlikely to be available in Cork, Dublin and Galway.

It was unlikely to be available?

Mr. Bob Patterson

We looked at the option but it was not progressed.

In recent years, a number of the private hospitals have been in difficulties. We are now in a situation where more public work is being outsourced to private hospitals. It is quite ironic, when the aim was to bring in some of those private hospitals as public facilities.

I will move on to the points that were made earlier about theatres closing at 4 o'clock. If that is happening, it is outrageous. These are expensive facilities and the witnesses are talking about a whole lot of other facilities that are needed. With regard to existing facilities, if theatres are closing at 4 o'clock, what on earth are we doing?

Who in the Department or HSE is responsible for patient throughput in hospitals so that we effectively sweat the assets of our very expensive hospital facilities and ensure they are maximised? We are now seeing that all the time in the private sector. People have procedures at 8 p.m. or MRIs at 10 p.m. Who is responsible for ensuring we maximise the use of the existing facilities?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

It has been made clear that all of us in the Department and across the management team are responsible for ensuring adequate levels of-----

I am sorry, but that does not work. It never works when everybody is responsible.

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

It is absolute policy to extend the use of facilities-----

Who specifically is looking at what is happening in each of the acute hospitals and ensuring we do not have a situation whereby theatres close at 4 p.m.?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

Mr. McCallion might come in on that point.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I will come in on that point. We have an acute hospitals team and there is a specific team within it to focus just on access.

Is that a HSE team?

Mr. Damien McCallion

It is.

Does it have regular reports on the situation?

Mr. Damien McCallion

The team deals with issues around access and waiting lists at each site daily. The chief executive and clinical director at each site are responsible for, as the Deputy described, maximising the resources that are there to ensure they deliver. We have this year provided significant additional funding to support that extra activity. That funding is a 12% increase on last year's equivalent. To speak to the points made by Deputies Shortall and Burke, we know there is still work to do.

Alongside that is a programme under Dr. Colm Henry which is looking at theatre rationalisation and usage. It is using lean techniques to consider how we can maximise the flow through.

Do either of the bodies to which Mr. McCallion has referred report? Do they provide reports on their work, what they are doing and the progress or otherwise that is being made in using the hospitals?

Mr. Damien McCallion

The access team would report on waiting lists and productivity by site.

Are those reports available?

Mr. Damien McCallion

Some of those are published. They are part of our normal performance reporting process.

May I have a note on where I might find them?

Mr. Damien McCallion

Sure, I can do that.

One cannot help but think of the late Gerry Robinson, who made an enormous difference in the NHS. He actually went into hospitals and saw where an additional porter may have allowed a theatre to open later or where various things could be done at hospital level to maximise use and ensure greater patient care. I want to know if that kind of work is going on in the HSE. I would appreciate a reference for the reports.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I will come back to the Deputy on that point. Briefly, because I know time is an issue, I will say that we publish a lot of the performance data. We are going to publish, by hospital, the response in terms of the wait times across the hospitals and the activity that is undertaken so we can see productivity.

I am interested in the timing of the use of facilities and the times at which people are working. Is that data available?

Mr. Damien McCallion

Not all of the hours are held centrally. They would be held locally. We focus on ensuring productivity.

Is there any way of finding out what hospitals close their theatres at 4 p.m.?

Mr. Damien McCallion

That will vary wildly on different days and in different circumstances.

Who is in charge of that?

Mr. Damien McCallion

The access team co-ordinates that centrally and each site-----

I want to know what the access team is doing about the outrage that theatres are closing at 4 p.m.

Mr. Damien McCallion

Sure. To reassure the Deputy, the team is on to all the hospitals every day of every week in relation to productivity.

That is fine. I want to know what progress is being made.

Mr. Damien McCallion

Sure. It is underpinned by the clinical work around that theatre optimisation work as well.

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

The Minister has asked that site-level analytics on activity be published on a regular basis through 2024 as part of the national service plan that is being developed. We are working in close partnership with the HSE to look at activity in-----

Are those analytics available? From what Mr. McCallion has said, they seem to be. Do we have to wait until next year for basic analytics?

Mr. Damien McCallion

Some of them are available now.

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

Some are available. Those analytics are being exchanged and discussed with the HSE. The intention is to publish them. We share the Deputy's concern about maximising the use of resources. We have increased investment and whole-time equivalents right across the health and social care system at record levels in recent years. Much of those increases came in during the Covid-19 crisis. There is a productivity puzzle that we are committed to resolving. It is also being experienced in other countries. We are determined to ensure we get activity levels and a health service commensurate with the increase in investment in whole-time equivalents.

I thank our guests. I will come back in on some other issues.

I hope to let members in later on. We will have a comfort break for ten minutes around 11 a.m. Before we move on to the next questioner, there was a hesitancy in the answers given in respect of the sites. The witnesses have said the decision on sites is a matter for the Government at the end of the day. Is the hesitancy for commercial reasons? Am I picking that up wrong? There seemed to be a reluctance to answer. I am just trying to clarify for the sake of people watching. What was the hesitancy around these particular sites?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

It is about respecting the Government's final authority to determine and agree the sites. A decision is only a decision when it is agreed by Government. The memo is being finalised to make recommendations for two specific sites in Dublin. We are not in a position to announce it as a decision or to give an indication of the recommendation of the Government in advance of Government approval.

Does Mr. O'Connor hope it will be sooner rather than later?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

Until recently, we were hoping to get a memo in before Christmas. It will not be long after Christmas.

I want to move to digital servicers but before I do, I will go back to one question answered by Mr. Patterson about purchasing existing sites or buildings for elective hospitals. I want a bit of clarification in that regard. Mr. Patterson said it was not possible to locate buildings in Cork, Dublin and Galway. Is that what he said? That implies there was an attempt to look at it as a package. Is that correct? I presume that of those three, there would be locations in one or two of them. Is the issue that we are approaching it as a package and a proprietary taking over of a hospital?

Mr. Bob Patterson

I thank the Deputy. I will explain the process we went through as part of the preliminary business case. We created a long list of options as part of the public spending code. There is a traditional do-nothing option and a do-minimum option. We then went through a package of options to purchase sites and to purchase existing facilities. We then looked at sites in the three locations, with one site each, and four facilities. There were multiple options for one hospital in each health region.

For clarity, was there an option on the table whereby we would buy a hospital in Dublin and build a hospital in Galway?

Mr. Bob Patterson

The option of purchasing private sites was looked at on an individual basis but-----

So there was a hybrid version.

Mr. Bob Patterson

As part of the private site option, whether suitable facilities were available was examined. At the time-----

Were they looked at individually by region or were they looked at as a package? Were we asking if we could buy three hospitals in three different areas or build three hospitals in three different areas? Was there a hybrid version-----

Mr. Bob Patterson

It was looked at individually.

-----whereby we could buy one and build another?

Mr. Bob Patterson

It was looked at individually.

That is great. I thank Mr. Patterson.

I will move to the digital roll-out and digital patient health records. I am looking for an update around where the business case is. I appreciate that information has been put in around the general move and that our guests are taking the issue seriously. Can we have an update on timelines? In January this year, we talked about the way the business case has been structured to include the national children's hospital. Is that still the case? Are we still using the 2018 version of the business case or have we reviewed it and removed the children's hospital?

Mr. Fran Thompson

We have reviewed it and removed the children's hospital. We now have a first draft. We are reviewing it and hope to have it completed either this side of Christmas or very early in January. We will then have discussions with the Department. That is the acute side of matters. The integrated community case management system, ICCMS, which is the community, is in procurement. The shared care record, which is the third element, is also in procurement.

The 2018 business case has been substantially updated.

Mr. Fran Thompson

That is correct.

Mr. Thompson is expecting the first draft to be completed by January. When will we get news of it?

Mr. Fran Thompson

The norm is that we would go in and have discussions with the Department while it is in still draft format. We would get feedback from the Department. I would expect, if everything runs smoothly, a completed version to be available in quarter 1 of next year.

By "the Department", does Mr. Thompson mean the Department of Health or the Department of public expenditure and reform?

Mr. Fran Thompson

The Department of Health.

When do we talk to the Department of public expenditure and reform?

Mr. Fran Thompson

That is a matter for the Department.

It is for Mr. O'Connor. Could we have more information on the business case’s timeline?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

We would not delay in engaging the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform on such an important development and business case. There would not be an interval between our satisfaction with the business case and our engagement with the Department. In fact, it is useful to engage the Department early in the-----

This is a significant outlay, though. The cost could be up to €1 billion. It is a large project to undertake. Do we have a sense of how long it will take the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform to review this? It is a major infrastructural investment for the State over five to seven years. I am trying to understand how real the numbers are.

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

There has been a substantial increase in the resourcing of e-health, including in the HSE e-health team and in capital investment in e-health. It would need an uplift to accommodate the business case for the acute sector and the roll-out of community shared care records, though.

I do not want to use the word “piecemeal”, but the investment has been targeted. I believe “strategic” was the word we used when we last discussed this. It is not a global approach that encompasses everything nationwide. Regarding capital investment, are we talking large numbers?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

Yes.

I am sure that the Department of Health is used to going to the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform with business cases involving large numbers, not least of them on the national children’s hospital. When does Mr. O’Connor expect the other Department to review the documents and revert? Will it be six months or two years?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

It is difficult to set out a timeline. There is a shared appreciation across Departments of the importance of digitisation, particularly given the challenges presented by growing demand and people’s eagerness to play a part in managing their own health and have health information available to them to connect the various services. It will require investment. Legislative clarification will come through the health information Bill, which will be progressed in parallel and will clarify matters. While the digitisation of all of our health facilities has a long timeframe, it is urgent that it begin immediately. The Department and the HSE, through the strategic framework, are looking at introducing the systemic elements, for example, standardising referral forms, summary care records for everyone and the capability to share care records across facilities. This is about ensuring that we have strategies for the spaces in between facilities as well as for kitting out the facilities themselves. The digitisation is a long path, but getting the data right is something on which we are actively focused.

I appreciate that. In the work the Department and HSE have already done, they will have interacted with companies that provide the technology to do this, but for the sake of clarity where the larger project is concerned, have there been pre-reviews or discussions with companies or large organisations about the provision of such technology? Are we waiting for the business case to be signed off?

Mr. Fran Thompson

We would continually scan the market and engage with a number of EHR providers prior to any procurement to get a good understanding of-----

What is possible.

Mr. Fran Thompson

Yes, and what the options are. We are looking at all of the options.

The HSE and Department are looking at them. I presume that other State agencies, including the Data Protection Commission, are also looking at such providers.

Mr. Fran Thompson

I cannot speak for other agencies, but-----

The HSE does not have a team working on examining the providers and their merits in terms of data protection.

Mr. Fran Thompson

We have a team that continuously scans that horizon, and part of what that team does is on the data protection side. Whenever we engage with a company, we consider standard elements like functionality and ability to deliver. We also consider how the company manages the data protection and cybersecurity of the toolset.

The issue of data protection is becoming quite contentious globally.

Mr. Fran Thompson

Yes.

I will ask my final question, as I only have a minute left-----

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

The EU regulates the European Health Data Space, and negotiations on the matter are ongoing as the Spanish Presidency concludes. They will have implications for the market in Europe. I believe the EU will insist on interoperability standards across EHR vendors. There are debates-----

I am following the situation and am happy to hear that, but I am cynical about the ability of the EU or any national or supernational power to control tech companies that choose to use data in ways I would not particularly like.

In his opening statement, Mr. Woods mentioned rolling out the IHI to the National Treatment Purchase Fund, disability networks, etc. Could we have information on this? Perhaps it could be in a note, as I realise I am running out of time. The National Treatment Purchase Fund interacts with authorities and regions that are outside our jurisdiction. What are the data impacts of that? How would the control of people’s IHIs and PPSNs work?

Mr. Liam Woods

We can provide a note on that. Was the Deputy’s point about the NTPF working outside this jurisdiction?

Yes. The National Treatment Purchase Fund sometimes interacts with providers that do not work under the same rules as us. I would say that of private providers as well, by the way. In light of the roll-out of the plan in 2024, I would like more information on how we will address this.

Mr. Liam Woods

We will certainly provide a report.

I thank Mr. Woods.

My first question is on the surgical hubs. Will they be on existing hospital campuses?

Mr. Damien McCallion

They will generally be adjacent. For example, the Reeves centre is at the roundabout just outside Tallaght hospital. The hubs will need to be within reasonable proximity. Given that they are not doing highly acute inpatient work, though, they will have a protocol. For example, if someone has to go back into intensive care in the hospital, there will be a protocol with the ambulance service. They are generally close to major hospitals, but they do not need to be right beside them or on their campuses.

When will they be operational?

Mr. Damien McCallion

They will be staggered. The hub at Tallaght has been there for some time and is successful. Tallaght has moved from 30% of day case work being done in 12 weeks to nearly 80%, and there is further scope in that regard. At Mount Carmel in south Dublin, the first phase is in construction and will open in quarter 1. The second phase will be operational around the middle of the year. In north Dublin, we anticipate the hub to be operational around the end of quarter 3. Deputy Shortall asked about that one. It involves adapting an existing facility. The tender process for the Galway hub is just concluding, so the timeline will be contingent on what comes out of that. The tenders for all of the other hubs are at what is called the suitability assessment stage. Those processes will dictate their dates. All of the other work on them has been fast-tracked. We separated out the enabling work and other pieces so that they could move in parallel with the other tenders and try to build up pace.

How much would one modular build cost?

Mr. Damien McCallion

They vary depending on whether they are modular builds or adaptations of existing facilities. I am conscious that we are just concluding the tender, but the estimate is probably between €25 million and €40 million, depending on the----

For each one?

Mr. Damien McCallion

For each hub. It depends on the market side, though, so I do not want to go into too much detail. We will close out the process over the next few weeks. That estimate is inclusive of equipping. Give or take 100 staff will be needed for each – there will be some slight variations depending on the procedures being performed.

Will these hubs be a permanent feature or will they be a temporary measure until there is more capacity?

Mr. Damien McCallion

In Cork and Galway, they will overtaken by the elective hospitals. Regarding Dublin, I will provide an example. A hospital like Beaumont would use some of Raheny’s small number of theatres. In some ways, the term is catchy, but hospitals have often moved work out to other hospitals to get it off their main sites and, as Deputy Cullinane said, separate out scheduled and unscheduled work. The intention for the sites around Waterford, Cork, Galway and other areas is to see them adapted. They are being designed modularly so that they can be adapted for diagnostics or other work downstream as the elective hospitals move on. They have been successful in the UK, which has invested heavily in them. We have seen evidence from other countries in Europe as well. There is a large backlog following the pandemic. In Tallaght, the process is effective as people go through it. Just look at the numbers. That 80% of the day case work there is done in 12 weeks, which is in line with Sláintecare, is phenomenal.

My next question is on how we can adapt modern technology to healthcare.

The witnesses spoke about a health app due out next year. How will it work? Most of us have a smartphone at this stage. Will the witnesses run us through how the app could help us to interact with the health system?

Mr. Fran Thompson

The initial implementation of the app involves three deliverables. It will continue to evolve as time goes on. It is agile development so what you get on day one will not be the same as what is there on day ten or day 100. We will continue to do updates to it. The three initial deliverables will include the digital wallet, which will be in line with the national digital wallet and the EU digital wallet. You will be able to put your medical card on it or the health insurance card you use for going abroad.

That is handy.

Mr. Fran Thompson

It is very handy. Many people forget to bring the card but they have the phone. We will also be able to expose data we hold on your behalf, for example, your appointments. We will be doing signposting and will also bring prescriptions in from PCRS.

What about X-rays and MRI scans?

Mr. Fran Thompson

On the next versions, we will. They will come along. As we go through the months, we will add data and information and the goal is that people will have their record, which starts to empower them as patients, available on their phone.

It sounds brilliant.

Mr. Fran Thompson

For example, we are doing a lot of work on maternity at the moment. You have your visits on the app and we would also be able to provide a route map telling you how to get to the hospital - public transport, taxis, whatever - and where to go in the hospital. We would do signposting and additional facilities you can avail of.

Okay, and the app will be out some time next year.

Mr. Fran Thompson

We are doing the app in a private beta for selected people in quarters 2 and 3 and will publicly release it in quarter 4.

Will people be able to download it from one of the app stores?

Mr. Fran Thompson

They will be able to download it from the Google Play store or the App Store.

That sounds good. Telemedicine is a relatively new concept in Ireland. Other jurisdictions use it. The Minister mentioned it last week in relation to virtual wards. He said it could save 8,000 beds per year and reduce people's reliance on attending hospital. It is a good concept but will the witnesses run us through what a virtual ward is and how it could prevent people going into an acute hospital setting?

Mr. Fran Thompson

I can do the technology side of it and Damien can do the operational side. We are trying to give people a choice. Many people have to come to hospital because they are being monitored for COPD, blood pressure or whatever. They could be monitored at home and use technology like Teams, which people are on at this meeting, to have a consultation with the hospital. The virtual ward will be staffed with nurses and doctors. It allows people, at their choice, to stay at home and have that consultation. We have done some consultations virtually; we made much more use of them in the pandemic than now. It means people can be monitored safely, securely and clinically at home. The most important thing is this is not a technology programme; it is being clinically led by Colm Henry’s team, who are saying "Here's the protocols, here's the procedure", and we utilise technology to enable that to happen.

Mr. Damien McCallion

The existing examples are often a mix including people you are trying to prevent going into hospital. The two the Minister announced in the service plan for next year in Limerick and St. Vincent’s are focused on those who would be in an acute bed. It is the same care and treatment as in an acute bed. There are very defined criteria. We will look at how successful those are. It has the potential to be an alternative to providing additional bed capacity. Given the timescale of building new beds, there is clearly potential in that. The team working on that, including Fran’s team, has gone to Norwich, in East Anglia, where it is probably the most successful. It varies depending on the specialties and the conditions people have, in terms of how well they are managed remotely versus being in the hospital. It is a relatively new concept but with a huge amount of potential, which I think was said last week. Although we have a number of those around the country, this one is different in the sense these are acute patients who, but for this, would be in an acute bed in the hospital. Some of the existing examples, like in Letterkenny, which is probably one of the most positive ones, also include patients avoiding admission, which is slightly different.

Obviously the people taking part in the programme would be monitored on a constant basis.

Mr. Damien McCallion

Yes. Staffing-wise, there is not a huge difference. The nursing requirement is similar. They are still linking with those patients all the time and medical cover is critical for clinical governance of that facility because there is a decision made that a patient can be managed at home using technology delivered by nurses and overseen by doctors. Some of the examples in the UK involve a room with all the monitoring and equipment that people are working-----

That is all being monitored in real time.

Mr. Damien McCallion

Correct. That is the essential centrepiece.

So Johnny, Mary and Joseph are being looked at on a constant basis.

Mr. Damien McCallion

Yes.

I suppose it would be up to the patient to have a camera. That would be on their own laptop.

Mr. Damien McCallion

Yes, there is a range of pieces of technology. We could give a short briefing note, if it is helpful, around the nature of it.

Yes. It would be very helpful.

Mr. Damien McCallion

The key thing is this is around acute patients who otherwise would be in hospital. That is a positive thing in giving capacity in terms of beds. It is patient-specific. There are certain conditions and criteria the patients have to meet to determine their suitability for-----

What would those criteria be?

Mr. Damien McCallion

They are clinically led. They are defined clinically. That is the work that, as Fran said, Dr. Colm Henry and the team are doing. It is being rolled out in the UK as well. It is varying in its impact. The big benefit is there is more capacity in a shorter period. From a patient's perspective, if they do not need to be in the hospital, then it is a benefit.

Where would the mothership be? Who would have oversight of this hub?

Mr. Damien McCallion

In some ways, the bubble can be independent. The key thing is you have the nurses and staff. I understand the initial sites will be close to the sites for practical reasons until we see how this works. It could develop out. Some of the UK examples are further detached and monitored remotely for significant geographical differences. The key things are that it is safe, that clinical governance is assured for patients and staff and that there are clear protocols around how it operates. It is different from being in an acute hospital but the model has worked pretty well in the UK and I have seen some good examples.

In relation to the staff, nurses and doctors, will their sole goal relate to their patients in this virtual ward? Could they be called to a different location?

Mr. Fran Thompson

No, the virtual ward will be staffed as a ward and people will be rostered into it in the normal way. The only difference is the patients will be remote.

Okay, interesting.

Mr. Damien McCallion

Hopefully it is successful. It has potential, clearly. There is some evidence from the UK and they are trying to expand their programme. Norwich was the area looked at and it was very successful there. That relationship is important because when doing anything groundbreaking, it is crucial to make sure it is safe and the protocols are clear.

Mr. Fran Thompson

The big benefit for patients is that it is voluntary but they do not have to travel. If you do not have to make a 50- or 60-mile round trip and are still getting the same level of clinical care, that is beneficial.

If a person runs into difficulties or an emergency, the clinical team obviously makes a call to the ambulance.

Mr. Damien McCallion

There is a protocol around all of that.

Grand. Thanks.

Sitting suspended at 10.59 a.m. and resumed at 11.12 a.m.

I call Deputy Durkan.

I welcome our witnesses. We are talking my language today in that I brought up the same theme approximately five years ago. You have to put yourself in the shoes of the patient. Whatever a patient’s symptoms may be, he or she must assume the services can respond in a reasonably structured way and in a reasonable time.

My first question is on the degree to which accident and emergency services can be synchronised, co-ordinated and moved ahead in order that attending patients understand they will be treated with a sense of urgency, that they will be put on a list and that it will not take forever to be dealt with. Unfortunately, that is not always the case. What is happening right now that is changing this? What has been the extent of the change over the past year with the progression of Sláintecare?

Mr. Damien McCallion

We developed an annual plan this year that will encompass the winter rather than just recognise that pressures on urgent and emergency care are all year round. There are several elements. One is about avoiding admission. We know a proportion of patients will avail of alternatives if they have them. Traditionally, these have been the likes of local injury units, but also our enhanced community care programme, which is rolling about 2,500 staff out into the community for older people and those with chronic conditions.

Whereas the first aspect is focused on avoidance, the second is focused on emergency departments themselves and, as the Deputy referred to, how they are managed when patients come in. There are protocols developed for certain conditions. Obviously, there are protocols for the more extreme conditions, such as cardiac arrest, but equally there are protocols for other conditions. There are pathways for people that will assist. In paediatrics, for example, there is usually a direct pathway through. It is not the case in every hospital but it is being rolled out. It is partly limited by infrastructure.

The third aspect concerns the flow when a patient is admitted. It is about trying to maximise the flow to minimise the time spent focusing on the length of stay in hospital. We measure all our hospitals’ lengths of stay.

Are we succeeding in that?

Mr. Damien McCallion

We have made some small improvements this year regarding year-on-year trends but still have a substantial way to go in addressing delays, as the Deputy and anyone who has visited an emergency department will know. One group on which we focused this year – it is only a small step but it is a start – comprises people aged over 75. We monitor the time they spend in emergency departments and know if they are delayed. This group is very vulnerable and there can be an impact on their outcomes. We have seen improvements in the numbers of patients. We have set a target that no one over 75 in an emergency department should wait for longer than 24 hours. In this time, they are to be either admitted or discharged. It is a target of 99% because there are some medical reasons people may be held. We have seen an improvement in this regard of about 8%, and that is continuing to drop. We are at 94% at the moment. That is just the first step. It is not overly ambitious and we need to move to shorten the period further. We are trying to focus on certain groups, given the pressures that exist.

What is interesting is that while attendance levels are generally staying relatively flat because of some of the alternatives in the community, admissions are increasing, particularly admissions of those among our older population, who we know will require more time in hospital.

That is fine. At some of these meetings, I mentioned what has been the experience of my family and, I am sure, others. We attended five accident and emergency departments in five hospitals and the scene was the same in each. For starters, there was a long waiting time. From the patient’s point of view, everything was happening behind a closed door. Alternatively, in so far as the patient was concerned, nothing was happening. The patient will be concerned and may be in severe pain. To the professional, the issue may not be urgent, but that is not reassuring to the patient. A patient in severe pain may have to wait five to ten hours. After a ten-hour wait, maybe half the triage will be done but there may still be no diagnosis. At that stage, he or she may be told there is only one doctor on duty and that it will take another five, six or ten hours before the people can be cleared. It is at this time, when nothing is happening, that the patient goes home, despite severe pain. The patient goes home and then, hopefully, goes to a different hospital. The same thing happens again and the patient goes home again eventually. In some cases, a patient will not have been seen at 4 a.m. or 5 a.m. despite having been delivered to the hospital at 3 p.m. or 4 p.m. the previous day. In that case, the patient goes home also. That is not the way to run the system at all.

I have been through the system. I had one very good experience but the others were bad. It was through the dedication of those on the line at the time that my good experience was good. The person concerned listened to what the patient had to say and reacted immediately. Even though there were several distractions, the staff did what they had to do. That was fine.

How can we expect to progress unless we can compete with the private sector in the context of turnaround times and distances between various hospital services? It is generally accepted that when a patient gets into the system, the system is good, but that getting into it is a problem. What have we done about that? What are we doing daily?

How often do the representatives present saunter into an accident and emergency department and the wards to see what is going on? The confidence of patients is at risk, and we cannot afford to lose it. In the public health service, we need the best and have to expect it. What is happening in this regard?

The visiting committees that used to go to the hospitals once upon a time walked around at unexpected times and stuck their noses into places they should not, but there was action and a reaction straight away.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I will make a couple of points. While the private sector has small departments it calls emergency departments, these are not comparable. If you have a real emergency, it is a question of using the public system. Sometimes, the private sector offers local injury units or other facilities. It is more about how we get it resolved for ourselves. None of us wants people to have to wait for as long as they do. At national level, we track what is called the patient experience time, be it six, nine, 12 or 24 hours, and we also focus on the over-75s because they comprise a particularly vulnerable group. We consider the data by hospital.

I visit emergency departments regularly. More important, however, we have a team that examines those sites that are under pressure to understand what can be done to help them and learn from where services may be working better. There is a major process around this. We recently launched what is called a patient flow academy, which is trying to share some of the lessons and insights on what works. No one who works in a hospital, or indeed a community service, wants patients to have to wait.

It is about trying to transfer the learning from places where things work well and apply it to the sites that are under the greatest pressure. The Deputy's point is well made. Locally, we are really pushing hard. The chief executives, clinical directors and directors of nursing are in the emergency departments every morning checking, managing and looking at the operations to see what can be done. Having sat in on some of the meetings they have to discuss flow within the hospitals, I know they are actively trying to manage every patient to keep the system moving and keep a good flow. That is essential. The reason people get delayed in emergency departments before admission is all to do with flow.

How does the concept of time and motion apply in those situations? Mr. McCallion will say that what we are discussing is different and it cannot be done on a time-and-motion model. In fact, a lot can be done using the concept of time and motion. The public health system is competing against the private sector, where there is no such thing as waiting. It is prearranged when patients enter the system. Steps one, two, three and so on happen quickly, which means patients are not on the list blocking somebody else from getting on it. The patient is moved on. How can we achieve that to the same extent in the public system?

Mr. Damien McCallion

The Mater hospital, to give an example, uses what is called lean methodology, which applies the concept of time and motion. The lean model is really just about looking at the process and seeing how can it be made to work better from a patient's perspective. The other important point is that when the system is under pressure, there is prioritisation. The triage process allows for that. It can sometimes mean that people have longer waits but, clinically, that is a key part of what we are doing. Our emergency medicine programme has clear priorities and triage protocols around how the emergency department should work. The Deputy's point is well made in regard to time and motion and the lean model. It is about looking at the flow and the process. Our hospitals are trying to use those sorts of techniques and see how they work. Obviously, it is complex.

I have two more questions. First, there is a difficulty with recruitment at the moment, notwithstanding the significant increases in staff numbers over the past ten to 12 months. Were the most sensitive areas the recipients of those extra or required staff? The services are indicating that they want recruitment restored but it is not about using an employment agency. Recruitment needs to be restored to the places that are under pressure now.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

I will take that question.

A written reply would be fine. I do not want to hold up proceedings. My other question is one I have already asked. To what degree has the implementation of Sláintecare been effective and which aims have been most effectively delivered?

The witnesses may respond now if they wish or they may provide a written note.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

On recruitment, we have deployed a number of strategies over the past number of years to improve our recruitment both domestically and internationally. We have also increased capacity to enable us to recruit. In the current year, our recruitment efforts accelerated. We recruited earlier than we projected our target for the end of the year. In the context of having achieved the level of recruitment and the level of affordable post in 2023, the recruitment freeze was implemented a number of weeks ago. On the plus side, we have the benefit as we go forward of all the recruitment we achieved earlier than expected. We are currently in the process of drawing up the service plan for 2024, which will determine the complement of whole-time equivalent staff for next year. Within that complement, the plan is that we will be able to continue to recruit next year and to replace post within the complement. There is also provision for new development post in 2024. The service planning process for next year is ongoing.

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

When it comes to Sláintecare implementation, we share the eagerness of the committee for acceleration in progress. There already is very substantial progress to be seen in its implementation. Members are fairly up to date on the progress on the health regions and the new organisational integrated management structures, which will provide greater transparency, a clear line of accountability in the system and allow us to employ the benefits of population-based approaches to health planning and performance appraisal. One of the topics selected for us to focus on today by the committee is the consultant contract. That is an area in which very substantial progress has been made, with significant numbers of consultants, as reported in the opening statements, switching over to the new contract. That will be an enabler of substantial change and a much strengthened public system.

The Minister and the Government have prioritised, consistent with Sláintecare, reducing costs, including the lowering of payments under the monthly drug payment scheme, abolition of public inpatient charges and an expansion of medical card eligibility by bringing the threshold up to the median income for households and extending provision for children. These are very significant developments. Recruitment is at record levels, not just in hospitals but, consistent with Sláintecare, in community infrastructure as well. There are enhanced community care teams. The 96 community care networks provide alternative services and teams to which GPs can make referrals, other than to emergency departments, GP access to diagnostics and many other developments. There is a lot of our work still to do but there is very substantial progress. This is a period of big investment in health and significant expansion of services. That is consistent with rising demands, as Deputies are well aware.

I thank the witnesses.

It is good to hear about some of the positive things that are happening. We tend to focus much of the time on the negatives. Reference was made to the number of consultants who have signed up to the new contract. What is the main pushback in terms of consultants not signing up to the contract? Is there any sense at this stage of what their main concerns are?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

The new consultant contract was implemented in March this year. For new consultants being recruited, it is the only contract that is available as we go forward. Existing consultants can transition to the new contract. They will make an individual decision based on their current contract. Consultants on pre-2023 contracts would have had the capacity to do private practice in a public hospital as well as public practice in a public hospital. Individuals will make an informed decision based on their existing contract and the terms of that contract versus the terms of the new contract. In the months since the new contract was implemented, we have seen more than 920 existing consultants transition to the new contract, with a good number, in addition, currently going through the process of transition, discussing their work plan with their respective services and so on. We are seeing a significant week-on-week increase in the numbers moving to the new contract. I anticipate we will continue to see such increases for a while yet. To answer the Chair's question, it is about each individual making an informed decision based on the new contract versus his or her pre-2023 contract.

Are the former contracts open-ended or do they run out at any particular time?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

The pre-2023 contract holders can transition at any time but there are some benefits to transitioning earlier in terms of the amount of time that is allowed to exit private practice in a public hospital. There are stopgaps contained in the new contract that make earlier transition more attractive.

There are some concerns around the surgical hubs idea. I am aware of the reuse model in Tallaght. One of the reasons it is successful relates to an issue we touched on previously.

Normally, when there is a challenge with emergency department beds, the first beds to get it, so to speak, are the day care beds. Part of the success story of the Tallaght model was where it remained open in the past year, even though there were challenges right across the ED system. Is that one of the advantages and is that what the HSE is looking at with regard to the roll-out of these other surgical beds, that they are part of the hospital system but cannot directly be called on, as such, with regard to closures or be used for other things, and that they are purely for those day patients?

Mr. Damien McCallion

Yes, and as one of the Deputies referred to earlier, the ultimate advantage of separating scheduled and unscheduled care is that when there is pressure on an emergency department in other hospitals, part of the protocol is to utilise those beds in what is called surge. That, unfortunately, impacts on day work.

As was said, in Tallaght they able to use that to go from 30% to 80% in 12 weeks and the balance is in more complex procedures, perhaps, that need to be undertaken on the hospital campus because of other needs, like access to ICU and so on, so there is clinical judgement. As I say, the greater the number of procedures, and we are seeing more changes where more and more procedures can be done on a day case basis, the more that demand will grow. They are still limited in scope, size and procedures. The elective hospitals have a much bigger footprint in the range of procedures and specialties they will be able to undertake and the access to other services that are there. Essentially, the Tallaght facility is very effective. It has reached 80% of the day case work within 12 weeks nearly, which is in line with the Sláintecare targets. That is a huge jump from 30% previously and we would see that volume coming through.

The other benefit some of those procedures is that there are a small number of outpatient rooms there, so there is also a benefit in each of the centres that, as well as day case, it allows the clinicians to do some additional outpatient work in those areas that will assist where capacity is an issue for the relevant specialties operating out of it. There are significant advantages to it both in improving day case access and additional OPD and in making more effective use of consultants and their teams. It is not just the consultants but also the nursing and the other teams that are there. Having walked the floor in Tallaght, it is a very successful model and there is potential to develop it out further if the demand increases in terms of increasing hours and so on, because the whole flow is designed around people moving quickly versus, perhaps, going into a hospital with the existing infrastructure and an assessment room in one block, going to another block for other work and so on. There are a range of advantages, the separation being one, but the flow is also critical in undertaking the volume.

There is also the fact it is an innovative approach that has come from within the system, similar to Pathfinder, which also has being rolled out, and the very positive elements in that regard are quite obvious.

We were speaking earlier about the tendering process and the Minister was talking about it being a major obstacle to delivering capital projects. He said we need these in a timely fashion. What changes, if any, have happened in that process in respect of the two elective hospitals? We are saying there is a problem with the tendering. What are we doing to iron out or resolve some of these problems? We hear it is planning, it is this or that, but are measures being taken on that? As a committee we are going out to national children's hospital, and if we had had the benefit of hindsight, there are many things we would have done differently. I am asking about the process itself but I am also asking if we are learning from the previous mistakes we have made and what we are doing differently in respect of these two hospitals.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I will touch on a couple of points. One is the learning. That has been taken on board in respect of the children's hospital leading into these major projects. The second point, which I should have mentioned earlier, is that the CEO has indicated that part of the new reform of the centre will include a particular appointment to focus on these big strategic projects, because of the breadth of things in which we are involved, such as primary care centres and so on, to try to bring a focus to that to ensure we shorten the timescales as much as we can on the delivery side. The process is still subject to the normal code, as colleagues in the Department have outlined earlier, and we have to work through those steps, but we are placing an absolute focus on those very big projects, because they need particular attention, and we recognise that from the learning from CHI. Certainly our estates colleagues have worked very hard to try to ensure the learning, as it has emerged, is applied to those projects, whether it is the new maternity hospital or the elective hospitals.

Will any new cost-effective control processes be introduced or have they come on stream, having learned from previous processes?

Mr. Damien McCallion

In the short term, in the stage we are at with the programme, there is a project control team in place to oversee that and almost to assess that all of those things in terms of the checks and balances are there, and this is alongside the people with the responsibility to deliver, so that they are able, independently and on an ongoing basis, to assess the progress of a project and identify if there are areas where we can try to do it faster or quicker or improve the way in which we are delivering it. That is one of the things. This is at the design stage, and how that develops out will be important as we move into the construction and planning construction. That is a model that has been enhanced and the CEO has put that in place in the case of the elective hospitals in particular, but it is something, when that new appointment is made, that will have the potential to look at how we can support the project. When the work is being done, it is sometimes helpful to have someone looking over to see if there are other things we can do over and above what the team itself is focused on in delivery.

For people listening in, but for people also within the political system, we want a system where we are learning from past mistakes and improving all of the time. We would like to think we will be doing things better and with a different approach to all of the big projects.

On the cyber resilience, the question that jumps out, so to speak, is whether there are still machines connected to open networks that are running on an unsecured OS? Have new security measures been put in place to minimise the risk of future attacks and stuff like that? Could someone give me an update on that?

Mr. Fran Thompson

We have layered security and we do not just rely on one thing to prevent attacks coming in. All of our devices, regardless of whether they are legacy OS, we have a very small number of legacy OS devices, have that layered security on them. Even if we are attacked, and we are attacked every day, by the way, we are able to defend those attacks and make sure that what happened to us in 2021 will never happen again.

At the time, radiotherapy and the machines there were one area in particular. Has that issue been resolved regarding the equipment that was being used there?

Mr. Fran Thompson

That is part of our layered defence. We layer all the elements within that.

The other area mentioned by the witnesses was critical care beds, and that there would be 331 by the end of the year. I know I have raised this before but a report from 2009 that is on the HSE website, Towards Excellence in Critical Care, talked about increasing from 289 beds to 579 beds in the 2010 to the 2020 period. There has been an increase in 42 beds in that ten-year period. In view of the increasing population, what do the witnesses believe is the appropriate number of critical care beds? I accept things have changed since 2009 and that there is probably a faster turnover of people in critical care and so on, but it is a big gap in those numbers. Have we a sense of how many beds we are looking for and will actually need in the next short period?

Mr. Damien McCallion

As the Chairman says, 331 is the target for the end of this year, and in November we have 325. There are just six left to get over the line in December. The plan next year is another 20 to get to 351. Then there are 106 beds planned to go to 457 by 2025.

With regard to the long-term population planning, a process has been started with the Department which is looking at the overall bed need across each of the categories, be they community, acute inpatient, day case beds or critical care. One of the learnings from the pandemic is that we needed a plan urgently to concentrate the critical care beds in the hospitals of greatest need. That plan was set out and agreed and takes us to the 457.

On the Chairman's second question as to whether that is sufficient for the next five, ten,15 or 20 years, that is part of that update of what was called the capacity report in 2018, which PA Knowledge Limited undertook on behalf of the Department and ourselves. We have stood up a process now, working with the ESRI, to look at what that will look like with future population projections. As the Chairman will know, we have grown significantly, even in the past year, by 1%, by way of immigration and so on, with the needs there also. That long-term need would be there.

There is a commitment to beds in specific sites in order to reach that 457 figure. That was one of our greatest weaknesses pre-pandemic but thankfully, it did not get exposed. I would say that 457 is probably the minimum position we need to be in by 2025. What the future need will be is unclear but the other process will determine that, looking out over the next five to ten years.

Do you have a ballpark figure?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I would not like to speculate but 457 will give us a strong foundation vis-à-vis where we came from. In the pandemic the numbers we had clearly could have been a weak point for us but thankfully that did not emerge. Obviously there was a lot of concern, as there was in many countries around the world, in that regard. A total of 457 gives a good solid foundation but we will let the population analysis determine what the need may be into the future. It will also be influenced by the sorts of models we use and the way in which ICU is often a response to emergency needs but also to some elective care. It is also linked to that.

I want to go back to the issue of the individual health identifier. In the context of innovation, a new system was devised during Covid. We were able to put an in-house system in place. There have been a number of questions from Members on the health identifier project already but I am interested in the role of the GP. I have come across some challenges recently. One GP surgery had to close overnight but that would not be unusual. I am sure that happens right across the State. The challenge there was that patients could not get access to their records. What role does the GP play in relation to adding and subtracting from a patient's medical records? Will our guests walk us through the system itself? How central is the role of the GP? I understand that elective and other hospitals would be adding to the records all of the time but what about the GP who is on the front line in relation to patient care? How important is the GP?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

The GP is absolutely vital, particularly to the summary care record. The GP is the key point of contact for all of us in the health system. It is the GP who makes the most referrals and who receives the diagnostics that arise from those various referrals. The HSE and the Department will both be working very closely with GPs to progress the digital health agenda. GPs have one of the better IT arrangements at present and they organise information quite well. We want to work with them in delivering for everyone a summary care record, consistent with the Bill. The sharing of care records across the wider system will greatly benefit GPs as well as patients. GPs are central to this.

I am conscious that some GP surgeries would be better than others and in that context, there is a gap in the system. Is there any way of resolving that?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

What Mr. Thompson is working on can benefit GPs, by going back to them in respect of patients and he can elaborate further.

Mr. Fran Thompson

There are four GP systems out there from two vendors. One vendor has about 95% of the market. All GPs and their systems have now been provided with the IHI. They received it initially for all public patients through PCRS and they are currently receiving it for private patients. That is fairly well completed in all GP surgeries. Most GPs have that completed now. GPs are the bedrock of the system and most of the electronic, up-to-date information about patients is held by GPs. This includes prescription information, data on a patient's last visit to the GP and so on. We will be utilising that information in both the app and the shared summary care record. That will provide both the patient and any treating clinician with the most up-to-date information. We see GPs as being really key to that.

I will go back to Members now. Deputy Burke is first.

I want to go back to the issue of the roll-out of support during the Christmas period. One of the issues that arose last year was that while the HSE had contracted beds, a lot of them were not used during the first two weeks of January because there was no effective mechanism in place for getting patients out of hospital. Will we have the necessary staff available over the coming Christmas period to discharge patients? While doctors may agree to discharge patients, we also need administrative staff to make sure we can get full roll-out in terms of getting people out of hospital. What process is going to be in place in each of the hospitals to make sure we can free up beds in the fastest possible time? If a doctor decides to discharge a patient late on a Friday evening or on a Saturday, how can we be sure it will not be Monday before some action is taken on that?

Mr. Damien McCallion

The Deputy is right that this is a big risk. To mitigate that risk throughout this year we developed a model over bank holiday weekends, working with all of the CEOs and clinical directors of the hospitals and the chief officers in the community, to make sure there was alignment to keep flow so that it increases the number of discharges at weekends. We have seen improvements in that. Christmas is always challenging because there are two bank holidays very close together. We have a particular focus on that. We have daily and weekly calls with the CEOs, clinical directors and chief officers around making sure the services that need to be in place are there to protect the flow of patients and to enable discharges. That includes access to capacity outside our own system in terms of transitional care and-----

Are we satisfied that we have a sufficient number of contracted beds in place from 15 December on? Obviously the same number of operations will not be done from 20 or 21 December until the start of January. Some people may be in hospital for longer but there is an urgent need to get people out at the same time. Are we satisfied that the mechanisms are in place to deal with this?

Mr. Damien McCallion

Each hospital has clear guidance in relation to what they need to do to protect patient flow but there are regional variations. There are parts of the country where acute hospitals have difficulties in accessing step-down facilities. That capacity does not exist in some areas and we have seen some retrenchment in the private sector as well, which we would have used in some geographical areas. There is variation in that regard but I know from talking to the CEOs, clinical directors and chief officers that they are very clear about what they need to do. That said, there are some areas that will be under more pressure than others. There is no question about that.

I want to move on from the issue of getting people out of hospital and into step-down care facilities to the issue of providing home care when patients no longer need to be in such facilities or in hospital. In the Cork and Kerry region at the moment we have the longest waiting list for home care hours in the country. Why is that the case? What mechanisms are being put in place to make sure that decisions are taken at an early date for those who require home care and that suitable people are identified to provide that care?

Mr. Damien McCallion

The preference is always to use home care as a first stop if that is medically possible because it works better than putting people into step-down facilities and then home care. In terms of Cork and Kerry, I know they have undertaken a series of initiatives in the last while to try to increase the number of people employed in the public home care system. Again, I would say that there are parts of the country where this is challenging geographically in terms of the recruitment and retention of home care assistants. Some of the changes that were announced this year, including the additional funding for private arrangements, will hopefully help, as well as the recognition of the pay needs of home carers. It is a vital role-----

It is also about travel expenses. I was speaking to people in the private sector who are providing home care. There are approximately 28 private companies providing home care. Their big problem is that they have additional costs. For instance, they have to rent premises for administration and they have insurance and public liability costs. The HSE does not have the same cost base as the private providers. They also have an issue whereby the funding they are getting does not allow them to pay travel costs for staff. That is a big issue. If they were able to pay travel costs, they believe they could recruit a lot more people.

Mr. Damien McCallion

The tender in quarter 3 allowed for that. It increased the rate to ensure that private companies could make payments in recognition of travel and other such expenses, while also trying to deal with the commercial balances of it. The rate was increased and that will hopefully increase stability within the sector. As the Deputy has said, proper payment of home care staff is important because they play a crucial role. It is probably one of the most important roles in terms of keeping our hospital system flowing and safe, alongside working with people in the community.

Does Mr. McCallion agree that we need a lot more people to provide home care because we have an increasing number of people in need of such care?

We want to keep them out of hospital and in their own communities. Is there further work that could be done, not necessarily by the HSE but by other support groups if they got the funding? I am just wondering if that can be looked at.

Mr. Damien McCallion

The Deputy made a couple of important points. I absolutely agree as regards the age profile, which a number of other Deputies mentioned, over the next ten, 20 or 30 years. No matter how many beds we build, home care is crucial for supporting people at home as long as possible, both for their own needs socially and medically but also in terms of hospital prevention. We need to look at different models. Sage produced a really good report recently on the future of home care and how we care for elderly people in our communities. We need a much broader process and solution than just the HSE and how we work as communities. That is a good piece of work. My understanding is that there is something happening in the new year in relation to the process around looking at care of the elderly. Home care is certainly one of the key things in the short term. We are trying to address gaps like those the Deputy mentioned in Cork and Kerry as best we can but it needs a wider look from society and across government, across Departments and across community. When you look at the age profile over the next ten or 20 years, it does need a much wider solution.

They are not paying mileage though.

Mr. Damien McCallion

The new rate we have put into the private sector, insofar as we can insist on that, allows for that.

It is travel time, not mileage.

Mr. Damien McCallion

It is travel time in terms of what is there, yes. The rate covers that.

But it is not mileage. They are not paying mileage. That is the problem.

The point being made as recently as yesterday by one of the companies was that they do not get an allowance to pay for mileage, which is a problem. It is not necessarily the same problem in an urban area but in a rural setting it is a big problem. In fairness, a huge amount of effort is being made by families to keep that support and give that time. Therefore, we should also try to encourage that and the way to encourage that is by making sure we have an adequate number of people to provide home care.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I take the point about the travel piece. There has been an increase in the rate for the private sector but ultimately it is going to need a much broader look at how we provide care at home given the changes in society with younger people moving away and so on. I referenced the Sage report, which is a good example of some of the ideas that are there but that is a much more long-term thing. In the short term, we are trying to-----

What is the plan for increasing the number of hours available for home care in 2024? Are we talking about increasing it or staying at the same level?

Mr. Damien McCallion

Our challenge at the moment is to maintain it. We have grown the hours but trying to grow or maintain those hours in recent in terms of the staffing environment is very challenging. The Deputy mentioned Cork and Kerry but there are a number of other areas where retention and recruitment is particularly challenging, be it in the public or private sector. There is a lot of work going on on strategic workforce planning to see what we can do. Looking at the profile of our ageing population, this will need a much broader solution as we go forward because we are a young population at the moment.

One area that is of concern to a lot of people is areas where there is a large new development occurring and a huge increase in population but there is no co-ordination around putting in health services at the same time. Take my own area. In Glanmire, we do not have facilities for older people to meet up or for any kind of healthcare service to be provided locally. My understanding is that there is no plan at present to build a medical centre there even though there is land available. What level of co-ordination is going on between the Department of Health and local authorities to deal with that aspect, looking at the increase in population, the increasing demands on the health service and keeping people out of the hospital system?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

This is one of the areas where we anticipate very significant benefits from the development and introduction of health regions. They align with county boundaries for the most part. They are very well matched with local authorities. We expect that when we devolve those management structures and put them in place, they will have much more regular, routine and stronger relationships with local authorities, community development work and all other public agencies in their areas. The Deputy is right. Pre-planning and building facilities where developments are happening is vital. The projections and updated demand forecasts the ESRI is working on for ourselves and for the HSE are taking in information at a very granular level, the local electoral district level, and it will be able to monitor and spot areas where growth has been particularly substantial. It will also understand the anticipated demographics of the population.

Going back to the area around Glanmire, there are 25,000 or 35,000 people living there and a lot of people who are retired. I understand-----

The Deputy is out of time.

-----that elderly people are having to travel by bus to a facility in Cobh in order to get access to facilities. What exactly is going to happen in areas like that? Is it going to be the next two or three years or five or ten years' time before we have anything developed?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

I cannot comment specifically on the Glanmire situation but this kind of co-ordinated planning across public agencies, including health, is something we are very committed to improving.

Mr. Muiris O'Connor: We cannot comment specifically on the Glanmire situation but this kind of co-ordinated planning across public agencies including health is something we are very committed to improving.

I am going to move on to Deputy Cullinane.

This session just reaffirms for many of us that it takes far too long to get things done in healthcare. We have heard about the statutory home care scheme time and again. It was in the programme for Government. It still is not in place. The elective hospitals should be in place by now, or certainly much further down the road, and yet it is going to be 2028 at the earliest. Even then I do not think anybody could have confidence that the doors will be open at that point. We are being told electronic patient records might take between five and seven years. We might have a step-down on that with the summary care records within three years but I will not hold my breath. I will see what comes in the next three years. We have been talking about and talking about virtual wards and virtual technology and all those things and still there is no delivery. It strikes me that we really need to pick up the pace and get serious about the big changes in healthcare. I just cannot understand why it takes far too long. I understand there are constraints around finance, the public spending code and budgetary parameters the witnesses are working within but I do not think there is any excuse for why some of these big changes, which we need in healthcare, take so long.

This is one of the announcements that was made a number of times this year and it seems to have fallen off a cliff. Maybe somebody from the HSE could answer this one for me. The Minister was before this committee and said we were going to deliver 1,500 rapid-build beds. Some 700 of those were going to be delivered in 2024. If I was a betting person, and I am not, I would not put any money on those 700 beds being delivered in 2024 because I have not heard a peep since. Can somebody from the HSE tell me where that is? I see there was commentary again across the media on the ESRI report that says we need 3,000 hospital beds by 2030. That is on a no-reform basis. I accept that if we build the elective hospitals and if we switch more care into the community and the home, maybe we will need fewer beds but those rapid-build beds were promised. Can somebody tell me where they are at the moment?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

There are plans in place. The Minister made those comments at a time when the Department of Finance and the Department of public expenditure and reform were asking Departments to submit proposals for a refresh of the national development plan.

I am not asking Mr. O'Connor to account for the Minister. The Department sets policy and the HSE implements it. It seems to me the policy was that we were going to build these 1,500 beds. We were told there would be urgency, pace and a rapid build and that 700 of them would be in place in 2024. Can the witnesses tell me if any of those beds will be in place in 2024? Can either Mr. O'Connor or Mr. McCallion answer that question for me? It seems to me we have had a lot of spoofing when it comes to these beds. I do not want to see them talk about planning-----

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

It is not spoofing-----

I do not see the planning. I do not see the evidence of the planning.

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

The commitment to expansion of the acute facilities is evidenced. We have expanded the number of hospital beds by over 1,000 in the last three years and there are many more coming on.

This is part of the problem. I did not ask about the 1,200 beds that were funded, some of which are still not delivered. I am asking about the 1,500 beds that the Minister waltzed into this committee and said, in fairness to him, were a priority. It was repeated on a number of occasions, including by the heads of the HSE and the Department, and we were promised rapid delivery.

I am asking where the rapid delivery is and where these 1,500 beds are because in every hospital I visit it is the same question about access, capacity, infrastructure and beds. The hospitals want to know when these beds are coming and I cannot answer that question. I am asking the people who can answer the question if they will answer it.

Mr. Damien McCallion

There is a proposal around those beds in terms of what needs to go where and, on the estate side, what can actually fit on each of the sites. That is with the Department at the moment in terms of the capital side. Essentially, it will form part of the discussions around the capital plan for next year as part of the service plan process. That will determine what the HSE can afford and what it can build in 2024. There is a very firm proposal around those 1,500 modular beds.

What does a firm proposal mean in the real world? I am sorry but a lot of questions are being answered at great length but there are no real answers to them. Firm proposals do not really cut it when I cannot be told if any of these beds will be delivered in 2024. We were promised that would happen and I am asking a straight question. Following on from what the Minister promised, will any of the promised rapid-build beds be built in 2024?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I cannot answer the second part of the Deputy's question but I can say that each of the sites has what is needed-----

Why can the second part of my question not be answered?

Mr. Damien McCallion

That will form part of the discussion about the capital plan.

I will ask the Department then because it is here to answer.

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

Plans are in place but funding for the rapid-build beds has not been confirmed. We have a capital budget of approximately €1.5 billion per annum and a huge programme for expansion within that budget. There are an awful lot of very substantial projects.

Why could that answer not have been given five minutes ago, that is, that we do not have the funding for it? That is what Mr. O'Connor just said, that is, that we do not have the funding for it.

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

That is the case right now and negotiations are ongoing.

Why was that not said earlier when I first asked the question? We do not have the funding for it. We need the funding for it. It cannot be funded within the current capital envelope. Is it the case that we need additional funding?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

That was the context in which the Minister asked for plans.

Okay. I have a final question. Again, it frustrates me that we have all of these promises and we have a lot of capacity constraints in the acute sector and in primary and community care. I have outlined all the issues where we have snail's pace progress and it is very frustrating for members of this committee. It is like Groundhog Day, having the same conversations with the Department and the HSE on many of these issues. I bet we could be still sitting here in five years' time having the same conversations on many of the issues.

I hope not as well but I would not-----

It does not augur well if the Deputy is saying that.

Not if there is a change of Government.

I will ask about the integrated health areas mentioned in the report, Organisational Reform - HSE Health Regions. This is an interesting one because I have been asking about this for some time. We will have the health regions, CEOs, and a single tier of management at that senior level. That makes sense. At a local level at the moment, we have a hospital manager and a chief officer for community services. If we want to follow the logic of Sláintecare and of the regional health areas, we need to end the silos and single tiers of management. How many of these integrated health areas are envisaged?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

The work to determine the exact number of integrated health areas is ongoing. They are the sub-geographies within the regions.

Is there some sense of it?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

Yes, I think it is approximately 20.

There will be 20 of those and they will be for a population of up to 300,000 people. Will a hospital or hospitals and community be included within that integrated health area?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

Absolutely. That is the design thinking. They all encompass-----

Will there be managers for each of these integrated health areas, IHAs?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

There will be leads responsible for operations.

Leads, managers or chief officers.

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

No, not chief officers. There will be regional executive officers. There will be six of them.

There will be a management lead anyway.

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

There will be a management lead and they will report directly to their regional executive officer.

What I am trying to understand is whether we will end up in a situation where we will not have a chief officer and a hospital manager and what we will have is a lead for IHAs that will cover both community and acute. Is that ultimately where we want to land?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

Absolutely, that is where we want to land.

Mr. Liam Woods

The recommended primary organising component, as the Deputy will be aware, is a population-based organisation, so it will be clusters of population building up from community health networks, of which there are 96, to IHAs and operational regions. That is the intention.

We will certainly return to that last issue when we have our briefing. I am very frustrated about the whole thing of the sites and action for the Dublin elective hospitals. The person responsible for capital projects in the Department last December, 12 months ago, told the committee that decisions would be made in February or March. When the Minister was here in April, he told us the proposal would be on his desk pretty soon. Here we are now at the end of yet another year with no decision-made on this. I appreciate many of the witnesses are as frustrated as we are with the slow pace. Clearly, the problem lies at the level of political decision-making. We do not expect the witnesses to cover up that lack of political decision-making. I know they are in a very difficulty position at this committee. We need frank answers and we need to know where we stand. If the money is not agreed and if there is not provision for any of these things, we need to be told that. We need to deal with the reality of what is going on.

There is another area where there has been very significant slippage. It is quite clear there is slippage across a whole lot of proposals and elements of Sláintecare. I will ask about the digital framework. My understanding was it was to be published in September. Again, is the delay down to the lack of political decision-making? I ask Mr. O'Connor and Mr. Thompson about why we have not seen that yet.

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

I might refer that to my colleagues in the Department of Health.

Why have we not seen that framework yet?

Mr. Niall Sinnott

It is mostly complete. There is not much left to be done on it.

Why has there been so much slippage?

Mr. Niall Sinnott

There are some decisions to be made about our approach to investment in electronic health records, EHRs, going forward because it is such a big area.

Who needs to take those decisions?

Mr. Niall Sinnott

The Department will make those decisions informed by developments that are going on in the industry, globally and so on.

Is that delay at political level or is it at administrative level?

Mr. Niall Sinnott

No, the delay is at administrative level. We just want to make sure we make the right decisions about the criticality of some of those questions.

There has been significant slippage.

Mr. Niall Sinnott

The document is substantially complete.

This has been going on for years. It is another major project that will make our health service much more effective and will give much better value for money.

Mr. Niall Sinnott

That is a fair point but the direction we are going in has been indicated in the draft of the framework is very clear and is already informing our capital envelopes for 2024. If there is a sense that nothing is happening because it has not been in the public domain, I can assure the Deputy it is already informing-----

The understanding was that we would have the framework.

Mr. Niall Sinnott

The Deputy will see some of that in the context of our focus on making sure we are leveraging technology such as apps and virtual care.

The understanding was that we would have the framework by now. I want to know why we do not have it now. This is an absolutely critical piece of infrastructure for the health service.

Mr. Niall Sinnott

We just want to make sure we have one section of it fully correct before we get it out there. We would be happy to brief the Deputy-----

When does Mr. Sinnott expect to have it?

Mr. Niall Sinnott

I think very early in the new year. We are just that close to it. We would be happy to brief the Deputy on the draft document which is substantially complete.

Again they are just vague responses. I want to move on because I am running out of time. It concerns new consultant contract. It is very welcome that there has been such a large uptake of it in spite of the committee being told initially that nobody would be interested in it. It is a very attractive contract. We have 272 new consultants at this point. There will be a further 921 who have transitioned to the contract. With regard to the 921 consultants who have transitioned is it not the case then that we will get an extra 20% of those consultants' time? Is that part and parcel of the new contract?

Mr. Liam Woods

Our reply is, "No". Will the Deputy say more to me about why she thinks that?

It is because these consultants who change over will not be doing the private work and they will not be allowed to up to do 20% private work. Is that the case?

Mr. Liam Woods

Apologies I understand. From a contract point of view, it is true they will not be doing private work in a public hospital.

Most private work that comes through the public hospital comes through the ED, so they may still be doing work, which might previously have been private. It is 85%.

They will still need to do 35 hours-----

Mr. Liam Woods

Correct.

-----in the public system.

Mr. Liam Woods

Correct.

That is an extra 20% of consultant capacity. Is not that the case?

Mr. Liam Woods

For public hours, yes. The only reason I hesitate slightly is that it may well be that the same patients who are coming through the emergency department - 85% of private work in public facilities comes through the emergency department - so it is quite likely that they will continue to work on the same patients but those patients will be public. In terms of hours worked on patients, it is not changing.

No, I am talking hours worked on public patients.

Mr. Liam Woods

Yes, and it grows at-----

So there will be an extra 20%-----

Mr. Liam Woods

Correct.

-----in terms of capacity or there should be, theoretically anyway.

Mr. Liam Woods

The point though is it may be the same patients.

Sure but it is patients receiving care.

Mr. Liam Woods

Correct.

Public patients receiving care from consultants who are paid publicly.

Mr. Liam Woods

Absolutely.

That is the extra 20% capacity.

Mr. Liam Woods

Yes.

Then there is the 272. It is the equivalent of an additional 450 consultants if you take that additional capacity plus the people who can come on to the contract.

Mr. Liam Woods

For public work.

Yes, for public work, which is very significant.

Mr. Liam Woods

Yes.

What arrangements are in place to oversee that? What are the governance arrangements to ensure that we get that additional capacity? When we had a previous new contract - the Harney contract - all these supervisory posts were created where they were supposed to report to the HSE and then report to the hospital groups but then we did not get any reporting any more. What is the oversight of the implementation of that new contract?

Mr. Liam Woods

I might ask Ms Hoey to answer that.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

When a consultant agrees the work - their new contract - part of that is agreeing a work plan in terms of how the 35 hours will be deployed and that will be across outpatients, inpatients, etc.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

That is agreed with the clinical director.

With whom do they agree the work plan?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

With the clinical director in the hospital or community-----

Who does the clinical director report to?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

To the hospital manager.

A lot of the hospitals are voluntary hospitals, essentially private or outside the public hospital system. Where does that data come back into the public arena to ensure that we are getting value for money?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

All of the activity that is undertaken in the hospital, be that in section 38 or in the statutory system, comes in centrally through operations, through, say, the acute operations and the community operations, so sections of operations.

Are those reports published?

Mr. Damien McCallion

They are not the detailed work schedules. We have a process where we oversee with each of the groups. As Ms Hoey said, each of the hospital groups and mental health obviously because-----

As our guests know, the oversight did not work on previous occasions.

Mr. Damien McCallion

And that is one of the reasons.

How do we ensure we are getting value for money?

Mr. Damien McCallion

We have a national group in place that myself and Ms Hoey oversee with the hospitals, the CHOs and the clinical directors to ensure that we are getting maximum value out of it, notwithstanding the need to-----

How is it established in the public arena, that is, that we are getting value for money?

Mr. Damien McCallion

We would look at it-----

What is the reporting?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I mention the responsibility of the chief executive of each hospital or the chief officer of each community to make sure it is maximised and, taking the example Mr. Woods gave earlier, it will vary depending on the specialty, the nature of the work schedule and so on as to what extra you are going to get.

There is too much that is vague here for my liking because the oversight of the last contract was exceptionally vague.

Mr. Damien McCallion

Sure. In clear terms, each chief executive is responsible for ensuring they maximise what we get out of it. They report back to a national group and we do a review then.

How do you know that they are actually doing that?

Mr. Damien McCallion

We look at it in terms of activity. The outcome ultimately is activity. It is what is coming through in terms of activity or extra sessions that are done say, for example, out of hours.

But that does not come down to the level of the individual consultant.

Mr. Damien McCallion

The work schedule is where that is determined, as Ms Hoey said. There is an actual individual work schedule.

Who has oversight of that?

Mr. Damien McCallion

The chief executive of each hospital oversees that. That is who oversees it.

Again, who has oversight of the chief executive of the hospitals? I ask because a lot of chief executives would say it is not possible to get that kind of agreement-----

Mr. Damien McCallion

I would not concur.

-----or accountability, in reporting.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I would not concur in the sense that the contract is very clear. The reporting line is from the consultants to the clinical director. Each clinical director is tasked with looking at what they can maximise from that contract, whether it is additional hours in terms of evenings or whatever it may be across the specialty. That work schedule reflects that. They report back in nationally then, in terms of the progress they are making against it and we measure the outputs in terms of the extra activity that we are getting across the system. There is clear accountability locally to make sure they maximise it. They report that in centrally and then we look at the activity that is happening.

I recall Professor Tom Keane saying the most important thing that we should do, in terms of reform of the health service, is to ensure that kind of accountability at local hospital level.

Mr. Damien McCallion

Yes.

In other countries, including Canada, there is an annual performance review. Is there any proposal to do that given the very generous contract that has now been taken up?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

The current contract, that differs from the previous contract, is that all of the 35 hours in the contract are provided in the public system. I think that is probably where some of the-----

I know that. How does one establish the performance of those 35 hours?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

As I said, accountability is with the clinical director, the hospital manager and the hospital or community in respect of mental hours.

Do any of those reports come to you?

I have given the Deputy plenty of leeway.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

The reports come in centrally.

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

In the context of the focus on productivity, there will be a refreshment of the indicators that are made available. As well as ensuring the full adherence to the public commitments in the new Sláintecare contract, the policy is to ensure fulfilment of all the public commitments in all contracts at consultant level. That will be looked at much more closely and we will be working with the HSE to see what visibility we can bring to that just for assurance more generally around activity and productivity.

Is that in the context of the RHAs?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

Yes.

The next speaker is Deputy Durkan.

Some time ago, I mentioned threats to staff in hospitals, particularly in accident and emergency departments. Having witnessed such threats first hand, I thought they were very serious. Foul and insulting language has been used to staff and other patients in accident and emergency departments and there have been threatened attacks by patients on other patients. This was not just happening in one hospital. I understand it is a common occurrence across hospitals. What has happened in the past six months to address this issue, which is a serious reflection of the quality that the public health service can deliver? Would anyone like to field that ball?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I can come in on that. Perhaps Ms Hoey might do so as well. We monitor attacks on staff and other incidents. That is managed at local site level. I fully accept what the Deputy is saying. There are many challenges in our emergency departments. The Deputy has articulated some of those in terms of the attacks on staff and patients in certain instances. Each hospital has authority over security in that regard, which we pushed through with them. That is one aspect. Another is trying to track and report incidents involving not only staff, but also patients, so that we can look at the sites and hours where there is the greatest risk and ensure support is provided accordingly.

By their nature, our emergency departments are not risk free. That is a challenge because we cannot eliminate the risk completely, but there are protocols for dealing with it. Security in emergency departments is one of the aspects that people have been asked to look at in terms of strengthening it, if needs be. For example, we had to do that recently due to events in the city to ensure that we had increased security at some of our hospitals.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

Training for staff is provided in what we call prevention and management of aggression and violence, PMAV. It can be applicable in that setting and many others. This is in addition to what Mr. McCallion described. We need to ensure that our staff can work in an environment that is safe for them and is respectful of them and the roles they undertake. That is one element, but it has to be supplemented by enhanced security measures in certain parts of our services.

Mr. Damien McCallion

Not to dwell too long on this, but there is a briefing note, which perhaps we can recirculate through the clerk, on some of the increased measures that Ms Hoey spoke about in terms of managing those incidents, our safety statements, specific work around training and the closing off of clinical areas, with more swipe control of who can get into certain areas.

There is a set of measures for the management of that as well. Training is also important to de-escalate those situations. There is a range of measures set out and that can maybe be recirculated to the committee.

I have to leave for another meeting. However, the point at issue seems to be simple. It should only happen once. Patients and staff should not be targeted on an ongoing basis with that kind of behaviour. The people causing that trouble, as I have said before, should be dealt with somewhere else - maybe in a drug or alcohol treatment centre. The problem is they are in the queue, and other people have to wait until they are processed in one way, shape or form. That is not an effective and efficient way to deliver the core of the health services we need to deliver.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I will raise one last point from a mental health perspective, because the Deputy has raised it. Each of the emergency departments was asked to ensure a dedicated room was available. Some of the larger hospitals would already have had this. It is a room to deal with those in the emergency department with mental health, self harm or those types of challenges. It is an ongoing challenge. It is difficult for staff. There is no point in pretending otherwise. The steps set out are trying to mitigate that risk as much as possible, both in security, training and for particular patients who present with challenging conditions like the Deputy has described.

I look forward to early progress, because that is not something that should continue.

I thank the witnesses for appearing this morning. I will ask a question that has already been asked many times. There are still no plans for an elective hospital in the mid-west region, even though overcrowding at UHL is probably the worst in the country.

Mr. Bob Patterson

When we prepared the programme business case for the overall electives programme, we looked at a series of options across the board. Under the spending code, you are traditionally required to look at both "a do nothing" and "a do the minimum" option. On the basis of the strategic assessment report we were already looking at three locations in Cork, Dublin and Galway. We expanded that in our selection process to include options for an elective hospital in each health region. We looked at elective hospitals in Cork, Dublin, Galway, Limerick and Waterford. We also looked at the option of Cork, Dublin, Galway, Limerick, Waterford, Sligo and Athlone. When it came to the overall objectives of the programme, it is clear that it is a national programme serving a national population. Cork, Dublin and Galway were looked at in terms of 90 km as the crow flies, 120 km road distance or two hours travelling time. With the isochrome created there, we found that Cork, Dublin and Galway were able to meet more than 80% of the population.

Would Mr. Patterson not feel, given the chronic overcrowding at UHL, that there is an actual business case for a hospital in the mid west?

Mr. Bob Patterson

Not for an elective only hospital. The Cork and Dublin elective hospitals will essentially cover almost the entirety of Limerick and the mid-west region.

That is fine. The most recent census showed a 460% increase in the number of citizens who declare they have sight loss. Where are we with the waiting lists for ophthalmic surgeries at the moment? Has there been any improvement, and is there any strategy to significantly reduce them?

Mr. Damien McCallion

Before I come in on that I will flag, on the previous point, that there is a surgical hub in Limerick that will deal with a certain number of procedures.

That has not opened yet.

Mr. Damien McCallion

It has only been committed to this year. The site has been selected and the tender is running at the moment. That will offer advantages to people in the mid west and provide that separation from the pressures of the emergency department.

There is a national programme clinical lead for ophthalmology. We have rolled out a model through our chief clinical officer, Dr. Colm Henry, and the strategic programmes office. It is rolling out a care pathway around ophthalmology, which looks at waiting lists across both community and hospital because there are waiting lists in both. We have seen significant improvement in those areas, which have deployed that already. The intention is to advance that further. I do not have all of the detail here, but I can probably agree to share some of that with the Senator and the committee. That is the strategy to try to improve access for ophthalmology services.

Will Mr. McCallion drop a note to the committee secretariat on that?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I will do that. As I said, in the sites it has been in, it has made significant inroads into the waiting lists in those areas, through looking at it as a combined service across community and hospital.

That is fantastic. Will anybody make a quick comment on the readiness in UHL for the forthcoming busy winter season?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I can comment on that. I have been talking to them in recent days. Like all of our hospitals in the community healthcare organisations, it is now planning for that period. There is a range of actions, from looking at what resources can be increased on a temporary basis through bank holiday weekends - the model we have used during the year - to what extra capacity can be used over the period, and what beds in the community can be made available over that period. Limerick, as with the other areas, will have its own local plan around how it will cope with that. There will be some variation between the solutions in different areas.

Has Mr. McCallion had sight of the Limerick plan?

Mr. Damien McCallion

We have been meeting the chief executives every week for the past while to engage with them solely on the topic of the actions they are taking. There is also contact every day with all sites on their urgent and emergency care and where the pressures are. As the Senator knows, Limerick is one of our most pressured emergency departments, or urgent emergency care as we call it. They have a series of actions locally. They do well with community discharge. There are very few patients in Limerick. It is one of the best performers in terms of flow out. However, there are challenges in the hospital and obviously with the admission rate. They are focused on those solutions. We meet with them weekly at a senior level, but there is daily engagement with UHL about what it can do through that tricky period of Christmas and the new year.

I touched earlier on the paper files being moved to a computerised system, and people's medical history being uploaded. Do we have a sense of how far advanced that is? I get it is probably an ongoing process. How many people are still outstanding, and when do the witnesses think it will be completed?

Mr. Fran Thompson

On the shared care record side we are utilising existing data sets, so that is not the complete data set. Phase one is going live in early 2026. It will take a number of years to bring everybody on board. The electronic healthcare records, which are the real answer to a lot of this, will be an incremental piece over a period of between five and seven years.

For people who are probably listening at home, what will happen to the old paper medical files? Are they going to be stored or digitised, or what will happen?

Mr. Muiris O'Connor

The legislation provides for specific items of information on everyone's summary care record. They will be provided digitally. As Mr. Thompson said, the GPs are have reasonably good IT capability at the moment relative to the community sector more generally. They probably now hold the key information in digital format. We will be engaging with them to get that into the system of record nationally for all citizens. I am not sure what happens to the paper. I think key items of information are extracted from it into digital format. I am not sure about the management of the paper beyond that. It is the data and information that is most relevant.

I am conscious we are coming to an end. I thank the representatives from the Department of Health and the HSE for their continued engagement with the committee on the important matter of the implementation of Sláintecare. I again take the opportunity to thank them for their continuing engagement with the committee throughout the year. I look forward to further co-operation in the new year. As it is December, I suppose I can wish the witnesses and their families a happy and peaceful Christmas. I look forward to working with them again. To all of the front-line staff who will be working over the Christmas period, we wish them well and give them our continued support. We thank them for their commitment and work keeping us all safe.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.29 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Tuesday, 12 December 2023.
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