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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN díospóireacht -
Thursday, 1 May 2003

Vol. 1 No. 7

EU Regulations: Presentation.

I welcome Mr. David Moloney, principal officer, Mr. Tom McGuinn, chief pharmacist, and Ms Louise Kenny, assistant principal officer, of the Department of Health and Children. I ask them to first give us a background to COM 494.

While the members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to those who appear before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call Mr. McGuinn.

Mr. Tom McGuinn

This regulation relates to a proposal by the European Commission to control precursor chemicals. Precursors are substances that are frequently used in the illicit or clandestine manufacture of controlled drugs, such as heroin, cocaine and amphetamine type compounds such as ecstasy. For example, one of the substances listed as a precursor is acetic anhydride, which is used to convert morphine to heroin, and another is phenylacetone which is only one step away from amphetamine.

The UN Convention against Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances 1988 is one of three international conventions that set out to curb the abuse of drugs. The other UN conventions are the Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs 1961 and the Convention on Psychotropic Substances 1971.

The EU is a signatory to the 1988 convention and Article 12 falls within Community competence.

Article 12 of the 1988 convention, which relates to precursors, has been implemented by means of two legal instruments. Where trade between the Community and third countries is concerned, a regulation has been introduced. This is Regulation (EEC) No 3677/90 of 13 December 1990 laying down measures to be taken to discourage the diversion of certain substances to the illicit manufacture of narcotic drugs and psychotropic substances.

In the case of trade within the Community, the Community decided in 1990 that the most appropriate means of achieving the objective of Article 12 was by means of a Council directive - Council Directive 92/109/EEC of 14 December 1992. This had the advantage of allowing the member states to insinuate the Community's controls into their existing measures, thereby enabling the various enforcement authorities, including the customs and police, to operate using the national powers available to them.

The regulation now proposed is intended to replace Council Directive 92/109/EEC of 14 December 1992, which was implemented in Ireland by including the substances concerned as controlled drugs under the Misuse of Drugs Acts. This form of implementation had the benefit of making the provisions of the amended Misuse of Drugs Act 1977, in particular sections 19 to 31 which relate mainly to the investigation, supervision and enforcement powers of the Garda and the Customs Service, including the penalties in circumstances of both summary conviction and indictment, available in the same way as for controlled drugs under the Acts. Furthermore, those substances, as controlled drugs, have also been recognised in other legislation such as that relating to drug related crime, which is an important aspect.

The system which has operated to date has worked exceptionally well in so far as Ireland is concerned and the enforcement authorities are familiar with and have confidence in that system and its links with the measures for dealing with drugs and drug related crime. Ireland, therefore, has no desire to move away from this system because the controls as they currently apply to controlled drugs have been upheld by our courts on numerous occasions over many years.

The Department's main concern is that the controls that currently operate in regard to these precursor substances as controlled drugs under the Misuse of Drugs Acts, and certain other Acts which relate to drug related crime, could be reduced, on the introduction of this proposed EU regulation, which we understand will require that the substances concerned be removed from the scope of the Misuse of Drugs Acts. As such, the substances concerned would no longer be controlled drugs. The Department of Health and Children has sought legal advice from the Attorney General's office on whether there is any means available whereby the provisions concerned under the Misuse of Drugs Acts can be retained without the need for primary legislation when the EU regulation is brought into force and, also, whether any appropriate provision could be included in the proposed EU regulation which would meet our concerns or enable controls under the Misuse of Drugs Acts to continue - as had been permitted by the EU directive this regulation is to replace.

Discussion on the proposed regulation is continuing within the Customs Union Group of the Council as part of a much wider agenda. It has now been discussed at five meetings since January. I understand that the Greek Presidency would like to conclude examination of the proposal within the Council before the end of its term in June. We are continuing our efforts within the Customs Union Group to obtain amendments to the regulation with a view to addressing our concerns. In that regard, we have recently submitted some amendments to the text for the purpose of improving the controls proposed by the Commission. If these are acceptable, we will then be in a position to remove our reservation.

I will now deal with the implications for our national legislation. While advice has been sought from the Attorney General's office on this matter, it would seem at this stage that primary legislation will not be required. It is envisaged that regulations, which will create the necessary offences and associated penalties, including powers of enforcement, will be possible under the European Communities Act 1972, as amended. It is envisaged that these regulations will also enable the removal of the various substances, preparations and other products from the schedule of controlled drugs under the Misuse of Drugs Acts.

The delegation seems to be happy that its fears can be addressed by the European Communities Act 1972 rather than by the Misuse of Drugs Act. Does that allay all of the fears of the Department of Health and Children? Will members of the delegation outline the changes to controls the Department will propose to the Commission?

I am alarmed by the possibility of controls on the manufacture of illicit drugs being watered down. This country has a major drug problem and the products and substances under discussion are used in the manufacture of heroin, cocaine, ecstasy etc. I would have thought this is an area in which we would see greater controls rather than fewer. As an Oireachtas joint committee, we should make it clear that we support the Government and the Department in protecting the controls. From where is the pressure to move in this direction coming and why is there no pressure to beef up on controls to make it more difficult to manufacture and deal in illicit drugs which do such horrendous damage to people's health?

Mr. McGuinn

The Deputy has expressed concerns that we in the Department share. We have expressed those concerns to the Commission and within the working group. I do not know that I would use the word "pressure". The initiative has come from the European Commission and it is based on the experience of its attempts to deal with a directive that must be implemented in 15 member states through national legislation. When the number of member states increases to 25, the introduction and supervision of measures of this sort will entail a considerable extra workload for the Commission. I assume there is a degree of interest on the part of the Commission in this regard. There are proposals with reference to which the term "slim" has been used, whereby the Commission is attempting to simplify or make more relevant legislation introduced in Brussels. In some cases this will entail a move from directives to regulations. I assume there is more than one pressure behind the measure, but that is an example.

Regarding the changes sought by the Department of Health and Children, we have come to accept that it is unlikely we will be able to deal with the area of enforcement. I have dealt with much of that. An examination of the regulations proposed by the Commission suggests that the controls it is proposing relate more to administration. The Commission seems to forget that illegal manufacturers must also be dealt with. We do not know what support we are likely to get for the significant proposal we have put forward. We suggest that the area of unauthorised possession should be explored and introduced through the existing directive, as had been the case. We suggest that authority to possess annex 1 substances should be introduced and that operators should be obliged to refrain from supplying scheduled substances in category 1 of the annex to persons unless specifically authorised generally or individually to be supplied with, possess or handle such substances. That means illegal operators would be in unlawful possession, which would make it easier to deal with them. Otherwise the regulations would be no more than the sort that apply to prescription medicines.

All of us can agree that it would be appalling if the availability of illegal drugs to the general public were made easier. I am confused as to why this would happen if the provision changes from a directive to a regulation. If we are required to introduce primary legislation, the Oireachtas should do so as a matter of urgency. When is it envisaged that we will have a clearer idea of what is happening?

Mr. McGuinn

If the proposal of the Presidency goes ahead, we may receive an indication before the end of June. After that, as this is an internal market measure, the proposal will have to return to the Parliament for a second reading. It will be later in the year when we have a clear indication as to what the final outcome is likely to be. It will only be a directive by the end of December.

This is in many ways typical of the one-size-fits-all approach of Brussels. It is regrettable that the proposal will result in a watering down of our own approach. Can Mr.McGuinn be a little more clear about what we can do to prevent this? What will be the step by step approach of the Department?

Mr. McGuinn

It is difficult to look into a crystal ball to see what can be done. The current proposals are being considered by the Council of Ministers and the working group in the Customs Union Group. The proposals have also been considered and given strong support by the European Parliament, which means it will be difficult to bring about significant changes, particularly of the type we wish to make. The difficulty was flagged to the Commission some years back, but it was anxious to press ahead in this direction.

The only possibility is to proceed with what we are doing at the moment and hope to gain some support among our colleagues within the Council working group. These proposals are being considered next week, by which time we will know if that support is forthcoming. Our feeling for some time has been that the high quality controls that exist here are not in place elsewhere. The countries in question may be happier with the administrative controls being introduced that will simply address the legitimate rather than the illegal trade.

The idea is not to lessen regulation or control, it is to approximate legislation across the European Union. However, the difficulty from our point of view is the change from a directive, which we can transpose into law, to the direct supremacy of a regulation. From the perspective of the committee's role in monitoring EU legislation, I am happy the Department of Health and Children is aware of the problems even if it feels its hands are tied. We are regularly critical of the Department and will be again, but in this case it is aware of the potential difficulties. Is it possible to inform the committee on an ongoing basis of any progress the Department makes in terms of having its concerns addressed? The committee would like to be made aware if legislation is required through the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform as a result of the implementation of the proposed regulation. That is something to which we would alert both the Minister for Health and Children and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Has the Department elicited the views of the pharmaceutical industry here and in the rest of Europe on the proposal? Has it put any views forward on this?

Is this something that affects other EU countries as well? The ideal approach is, as the Chairman is trying to do, to flag something that will cause problems here, of which this is a typical example. It seems to suggest the breakdown of the system. We should be able to head this off at the pass. It must surely affect other EU countries as well.

Are precursors used solely in the illicit drugs trade or do they have widespread application for drug manufacturers or in food manufacturing?

Mr. McGuinn

I will start on my left with Deputy Fitzpatrick's question. The supplements that are concerned, such as acetic anhydride, have many other uses. They are used quite extensively in pharmaceutical industry laboratories and, to a lesser extent, in pharmacies. For example, ephedrine and norephedrine is known as phenylpropanolamine on cough bottles and so on. Those are substances which are used extensively by the pharmaceutical industry. In so far as the pharmaceutical industry is concerned, it does not have any difficulties with the type of control that is being proposed by the Commission. Neither will it have any difficulties, in my view, with the controls that we are proposing to introduce here, either because it will be more or less exempt from those controls or because it is a legitimate and lawful user. No pressure will come from the industry which would prevent addressing the illegal operator in clandestine laboratory activities.

In regard to other countries, we are attempting to get support from them because there is a feeling that they must have similar problems to ours in regard to precursors. In this country there have only been two or three seizures in this area over the past ten or 15 years so we are relatively free from that problem. Some countries have had an enormous amount of seizures and difficulties in this area.

In regard to the first question about the possibility of maintaining our current control, notwithstanding that this is a regulation, it is a question we have put to the Attorney General's office. We are currently awaiting a response to see if there is any way around that and if there is we propose to avail of it.

Can we finalise this by saying that, as a committee, we would recommend the tight controls that are being espoused by the Department of Health and Children and would like to be kept informed as to any developments in this area? Is that agreed? Agreed.

I suggest that the clerk would draft a report containing the recommendations we agreed today. They can be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas. The report will be circulated to all members and its contents agreed at our next meeting on 15 May. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank the officials for coming before the committee today and outlining the implications of the proposals so comprehensively.

We are moving on to deal with COM 2002/699 regarding tobacco advertising. I welcome Mr. Eamon Corcoran, principal officer, Mr. Gearóid Ó Dufaigh, assistant principal officer, and Ms Siobhan McEvoy, acting chief environmental health officer. I ask them to outline the background to the adopted directive 699 and the legislative implications for this country. I propose to allow them to make a presentation and then members can ask questions.

I wish to remind them that while we have privilege they have only qualified privilege.

Mr. Eamon Corcoran

The adverse impact of tobacco consumption on human health globally and locally is enormous. It is well documented that tobacco kills. It kills in many ways including lung cancer and other forms of cancer, heart disease, strokes, emphysema, chronic bronchitis and other respiratory diseases. Smoking tobacco products is one of the most unhealthy things a person can do.

Until relatively recently, tobacco consumption was a generally accepted social habit. The product was seen as benign and its use recreational. Today tobacco smoking is recognised as the most extensively documented cause of disease ever investigated in the history of biomedical research. Tobacco products when used as recommended by the manufacturers cause addiction, illness and premature death.

More than 500,000 EU citizens die each year from smoking related diseases - including 7,000 in Ireland - and smoking is the major cause of premature mortality from lung cancer and heart disease. Smokers, in general, face double the risk of contracting cancer - primarily lung cancer - as well as a greater risk of heart disease, strokes, emphysema and other fatal illnesses. About 25% of all cancer deaths in the EU are caused by tobacco consumption.

Half of all persistent smokers are eventually killed by tobacco, one quarter in middle age and one quarter in old age. Those dying in middle age lose, on average, 20 to 25 years of life expectancy. Stopping smoking in or before middle age reduces the risk considerably.

The EU, as far back as 1986 in the Europe Against Cancer programme, acknowledged the necessity to tackle smoking and the need for smoking prevention to be given priority as even a modest reduction in the huge burden of disease caused by tobacco would result in significant health gains. It is against this background that the advertising directive must be considered.

This directive, which was adopted on 2 December 2002, prohibits most forms of tobacco advertising and sponsorship. It reflects the concerns of member states at the link between tobacco consumption and the widespread promotion of the product. Most member states have in place national legislative measures to regulate tobacco advertising and related sponsorship activities but the scope varies from country to country ranging from outright bans to limited restrictions. Member states may still take stronger measures on matters not covered by the directive.

The directive replaces an earlier one, 98/43/EC, which was annulled by the European Court of Justice in October 2000 on the grounds that it covered forms of advertising which had no transnational implications and, therefore, it exceeded its legal basis under Article 95 of the European Union treaty.

As a result, the present directive, which takes account of the court's decision, is narrower in scope. It strikes a balance between complying with Internal Market rules and the need for a high level of public health protection. The directive has not yet been published in the Official Journal of the EU. We are advised that this will be done in about two months. The new directive does not deal with indirect advertising - that is the use of tobacco brand names and logos on non-tobacco products.

The tobacco industry is principally a marketing-based industry and promotes its products locally and globally in a variety of ways. As more and more countries impose total or partial bans on tobacco advertising the industry has been adept at finding creative new ways to publicise brands, especially regarding young people. These include brand stretching, in which the tobacco industry has invested heavily, to try to circumvent advertising restrictions and prohibitions. Instead of advertising tobacco products, tobacco brand names and logos are associated with other goods such as clothes, boots, travel bags, fashion accessories, coffee and alcohol. These products are then heavily marketed thereby maintaining public awareness of the brand name but without appearing to advertise tobacco products. This type of advertising is particularly effective when aimed at young people. The Public Health (Tobacco) Act includes provisions to end this type of advertising.

The advertising directive, while important in itself, forms part of a range of measures put in place at European and national level. These measures include a separate directive that restricts the manner in which tobacco products are manufactured, sold and presented. This directive provides for health warnings on cigarette packets and members will be familiar with the recently introduced stronger and more visible health warnings. In an interesting development, consideration is being given to a new system of pictorial warnings. Some countries, notably Canada and Brazil, already require these and I am circulating examples of these to the committee by way of information.

Tobacco advertising is effective. It impacts particularly on young persons and advertising and related activities, such as sponsorship, are major influences in inducing children and teenagers to smoke. Most smokers begin using tobacco and consequently become addicted before adulthood. Children are easier to addict to tobacco products than adults and damage to children's health can be lifelong. Once young people become addicted, advertising maintains that addiction. Tobacco companies have used advertising to foster - particularly among young people - a positive image of smokers and smoking and of social acceptance equated with commencing to smoke. Surprisingly, no mention is made of the dangerous and addictive nature of the product it promotes.

The tobacco industry argues that advertising is aimed at getting smokers to switch brands and does not increase overall consumption. Studies show that this is not the case; tobacco brand loyalty is strong and few smokers switch brands once regular use is established. The advertising of tobacco products is intended to increase overall consumption as well as increasing brand share. Multinational tobacco companies have spent vast sums of money establishing their brand names internationally. Tobacco advertising and the sponsorship of events by tobacco companies establishes tobacco use as the norm and reassures smokers that smoking is socially acceptable. Young people are particularly sensitive to perceived signals that smoking is the norm. Logically, the industry needs access to young people to replace smokers who die from illnesses caused by tobacco consumption or who eventually quit smoking for health reasons.

Available evidence suggests advertising bans are effective. The evidence is that the total prohibition of tobacco advertising and sponsorship contributes to reducing consumption of tobacco products and lessens the social desirability of smoking, particularly among young people. Along with the promotion of a smoke-free environment, the regulation of advertising contributes to establishing non-smoking as the norm. We believe that strong legislation on advertising will curb the predatory marketing practices of the tobacco industry and will ensure that children will not be the future victims of the tobacco epidemic.

Ireland strongly supports EU measures in this area, particularly this directive. At national level, we have put in place a comprehensive ban on advertising and sponsorship by tobacco companies since July 2000. Recent figures published as part of the SLÁN national health and lifestyle surveys show a significant drop in smoking prevalence in the population from 31% in 1998 to 27% in 2002. This figure represents about 100,000 fewer smokers. The ban on tobacco advertising, along with a range of other anti-smoking measures, has contributed to this welcome development.

There is a wider background in an international trend to prohibit and restrict tobacco advertising. The framework convention on tobacco control, sponsored by the World Health Organisation, will be a significant development. The draft of this treaty was agreed in Geneva in February and will come before the world health assembly for adoption later this month. Ireland was very supportive of this measure.

Tobacco is a significant burden to individuals, families and society through death, illness and medical costs. In Ireland, the State assumes most of the costs of health care. Measures such as comprehensive bans on tobacco advertising that contribute to reductions in tobacco consumption are vital if we are to continue to reduce this burden. The Minister for Health and Children has made the threat to public health from tobacco one of his priorities. Strong legislative measures are important public health instruments in tackling that threat and we believe this directive will contribute to reducing tobacco consumption on an EU-wide basis.

I thank the delegation for the presentation. Will the officials clarify the impact of this directive in Ireland? As I understand it, our legislation is already as comprehensive as anything imposed in this directive. Am I correct in saying that the impact will only be seen in its European-wide application or will it also strengthen Irish law?

Mr. Corcoran mentioned the WHO convention in regard to the ongoing process of controls of tobacco consumption. What happens after this is held? Does it go through the EU process and will a further directive materialise or is it completely independent of it?

The reduction in tobacco consumption is welcome. The Oireachtas passed the Public Health (Tobacco) Act with the full support of all parties. What regulations have yet to be put in place? I notice, for example, cigarettes continue to be displayed behind counters in shops. I understood that was to be all but done away with. There is also the issue of banning smoking in pubs and restaurants. When will we see those regulations coming into effect?

I thank the delegation for its useful presentation. I would have liked to see an even greater emphasis put on the morbidity caused by cigarettes. There are enormous costs placed on the health service in providing amputations, treating chest disease and dealing with the effects of passive smoking on children, both when the mother is pregnant and in the home. We know there is a much higher admission rate to hospital of children with chest problems from homes where smoking takes place. I have been particularly involved with vascular disease. Apart from people with severe diabetes, I have never seen a non-smoker having a leg amputated.

We have been told the new directive does not deal with indirect advertising. Do the officials feel this is an oversight? I am not talking about badges and logos on clothing - it is also to be found on television and in films where a certain brand is placed in a scene. This has more influence on young people than direct advertising.

If one goes to a newsagent, one will see the biggest displays are for tobacco products and are funded by the manufacturers. Will any controls be placed on this? If one watches motor racing on television, one will see the promotion of major tobacco brands.

I congratulate the officials on their presentation. I know the Department has been proactive on this and this is to be welcomed. I suppose it sets the scene and the clarity with which the delegation outlined the predatory activity of the industry, particularly regarding young people and children. I would also like to ask about the cumulative effect of alcohol because other substances such as radon gas, which is the second biggest cause of lung cancer after smoking, have a cumulative effect as well. These are issues about which people seem to have a blind spot. They seem to find radon gas sexier for some reason but the cumulative effect of smoking is much worse. With alcohol as well the cumulative effect is even greater. Without taking away from the importance of smoking and the need for a ban on advertising, would the same attention be given to alcohol and the cumulative effect of that?

I have one question about the ban on in-store advertising and the availability of cigarettes. Cigarette companies are now putting dispensing machines into every shop and they feel that this is a way around the law. Does the Department have any ways to deal with this?

Mr. Corcoran

I may refer some of these questions to my colleagues. The first question was on the effect of the directive. Many of the points captured in the directive have been developing over a number of years so in terms of what we were doing nationally, the directive possibly does not add very much to it in terms of the range of measures being taken. Where it does bring clarity and focus is on establishing that this is an EU-wide measure. The main aspect of the directive that is not in Irish legislation concerns transborder publications. We have the provision in our legislation allowing magazines that were sold in relatively small numbers to continue being sold. These would be mainly foreign language publications. The directive does not allow for that.

In regard to the framework convention on tobacco control, most of the individual articles are already in our legislation. What is important is that it gives a global authority to these measures and some aspects that are difficult to deal with nationally, such as how tobacco control might possibly conflict with World Trade Organisation rules. That issue is disposed of. The draft environmental tobacco smoke regulations have been published on the Department's website since early February and we expect to bring them into force later this year with a view to their commencement on 1 January next. A text of that is available and I can arrange to have copies sent to the committee secretariat for distribution.

In regard to morbidity, I take the Senator's point that this is an exceptionally important issue as well. The focus necessarily is on deaths but with any major cause of death, morbidity is clearly a major issue too. It is interesting that one of the criticisms made of Government is that it raises money from taxation. Studies tend to show that the money raised from taxing tobacco products does not quite meet the money that the health services spend on the range of morbidity associated with smoking. We are very conscious of that although I may not have dealt with it in detail in the presentation.

In regard to Deputy Gormley's queries on indirect advertising and product placement, these are not dealt with in the directive. There were treaty problems in this regard. However, indirect advertising and brand stretching can continue to be dealt with at national level and we will be doing that.

What exactly will the Department be doing?

Mr. Corcoran

We will essentially be outlawing it. Product placement is a different matter. A lot of that arises in films that are produced not only outside the jurisdiction but outside the EU and that possibly is something that will be there for the long haul. Many initiatives regarding tobacco control are not overnight successes. One has to think in terms of five to ten years to really make something stick. In-store advertising and the controls on that will arise with the full implementation of the Public Health (Tobacco) Act.

When will that happen?

Mr Corcoran

The committee is aware of the difficulty with the transparency directive. We hope to have that remedied by the end of this year and I would expect that full implementation would go ahead next year. Some aspects can go ahead anyhow but in-store advertising will have to await the resolution of that issue. In regard to sponsorship, the main type that we are familiar with is grand prix racing and that effectively is covered under the advertising and sponsorship directive. It has to end in July 2005. Belgium had already implemented that feature in its national legislation and the Belgian Grand Prix was cancelled as a result.

In response to Deputy Cowley's points on alcohol, we are all aware that alcohol can cause many social problems but the essential difference is that alcohol when taken as per the manufacturer's instructions is quite safe and apparently red wine is good for you. Cigarettes taken as per the manufacturer's instructions are not good for you. I know that there is consideration within the Department on the issue of alcohol advertising bans but I am afraid that is an area with which I am not familiar. I can have a note sent to the committee clerk summarising the position there.

In regard to vending machines, our main concern is access to children and, notwithstanding our concerns about smoking, we have to accept that tobacco is a legitimate product. The sale of it can be controlled to ensure that children do not buy it. Advertising can be controlled but vending machines are probably here for the foreseeable future.

Regarding in-store advertising and cigarettes, companies are putting cigarettes in front of the counter. They have a glass frame for cigarettes and so when customers come into the shop they will go to the machines and take out the cigarettes so they have circumvented the Department's ban.

Does the Department see the introduction of the pictorial health warning samples from Canada and Brazil, such as we have seen here, and with which I am quite impressed, being introduced into the EU as a directive?

Mr. Corcoran

My colleague, Siobhan McEvoy, is on the working group and she will deal with that. I will take up the other points then.

Ms McEvoy

There is a proposal for a decision within the EU regarding the use of colour photographs but it is not obligatory on the member states to introduce them. The Internal Market department of the Commission is considering the matter at the moment. It is assumed that if we decide to introduce them in Ireland they will be introduced in 2004 but the industry is looking for transitional arrangements for this.

I take Mr. Corcoran's point, but I suppose if one is an alcoholic there is no safe limit, no matter what the manufacturers say.

I believe Mr. Corcoran wanted to comment on Senator Feighan's point.

Mr. Corcoran

Regarding in-store advertising, at present the gantries are very prominent. When the Public Health (Tobacco) Act 2002 is fully implemented, that issue will be dealt with. What is effectively in-store advertising will not be permitted. For the short-term we will have to live with this advertising, but there will be a quick resolution to this issue.

Is it the Department's intention to put all these vending machines inside the counter and away from access by the general public?

Mr. Gearóid Ó Dufaigh

The problem with vending machines is their accessibility by children, particularly in licensed premises. Many of them may not be on the premises proper, but in a corridor or a lobby. Some may be inside the door. If they were moved a few feet further, they would be on the street. The Public Health (Tobacco) Act 2002 will provide that they be within sight of the staff in the premises and would only be accessible using a token obtained from the barman. It will considerably reduce access by children.

Deputy Fiona O'Malley is entitled to the final question on this issue.

I apologise for missing the presentation, as I was attending another committee that was going on at the same time. At the moment, on a packet of cigarettes there is a half-size Government warning. Is it possible, or would the Department of Health and Children consider, a warning which took up the whole packet and a small product identification? If that was to happen, the notion of the attractiveness of each separate product would be gone as all one would see would be a dangerous little package with the strong, emphatic message on it. Is this something the Department might consider?

Mr. Ó Dufaigh

When we were considering the directive in regard to the health warnings, we did consider larger-sized warnings. The directive provides for minimum sizes of 30% on the front, 40% on the back and 10% on the side, giving information on some of the ingredients. We may run into a trade problem in that tobacco products from other EU countries with much smaller warning signs, could be imported here. We could bring in a measure requiring large signs on the Irish manufactured product, but it could be manufactured outside the country and brought in. This would subvert our intention.

The pictorial warnings do give much scope, if we can get agreement again at European level. The same problem, however, may arise. If we wanted to put pictorial warnings on packets, other countries may not, and again non-Irish manufactured products without pictorial warnings could flood the Irish market . It is something we will have to get agreement on at EU level. The warning signs are effective and they are a significant improvement on what was there before. We would like to see larger warning signs but there are trade problems in doing so.

I thank the officials from the Department of Health and Children for coming before the committee and outlining so comprehensively the implications of the directive being adopted.

Sitting suspended at 11.25 a.m. and resumed at 11.38 a.m.
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