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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN díospóireacht -
Thursday, 22 Jan 2004

National Diabetes Strategy: Presentation.

I welcome Dr. Jim Kiely, chief medical officer, Mr. Brian Mullen, principal officer, Mr. Denis O'Sullivan, principal officer, Mr. Brian Brogan, assistant principal officer, Mr. Paul McKiernan, assistant principal officer and Ms Tracey O'Beirne, nursing adviser, all from the Department of Health and Children.

I will ask Dr. Kiely to begin the presentation on Ireland's national diabetes strategy. I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I note that Dr. Kiely has a 20-page submission but we would appreciate it if he could synopsise that, please.

I do not intend to impose myself for that length of time on the committee. I will try to synopsise the points in the document. I thank the Chairman and the committee for the opportunity to come here yet again. I have been here several times and it is always a delight to appear before this committee.

Dr. Kiely is starting off on the right foot.

We shall see how long that will last.

I would like to outline the nature and prevalence and health impacts of diabetes in our community. I will also describe in a very general way the services available for diabetics in the area of prevention and health promotion and in the various elements of the service provision, to indicate in a general sense the effects we hope will flow from the reform programme on care of diabetics and also to inform the committee specifically that the Minister has recently established a working group on diabetes and has asked me to chair this group, whose first meeting will be held on 30 January.

We have begun to consider diabetes as an entity because in recent years, rather than develop generic services for dealing with the entire range of illnesses, some thought has been given to identifying illnesses of a significant public health importance, with high mortality and morbidity rates, whose natural history is reasonably well understood, and for which there is good evidence for interventions. Cardiovascular disease and cancer have been targeted in this way. The cancer strategy which has been operating since 1996, and the cardio-vascular strategy since 1999, have shown the merit of dealing with these important disease entities in this co-ordinated and integrated way.

I will not elaborate on the technical details of diabetes. Possibly many members of the committee know a relative or acquaintance with diabetes and are aware of its general effects. It is an endocrine disease in which hormones are imbalanced, leading to a range of complications. There are two types: type 1 is insulin-dependent and requires lifelong treatment with insulin - it usually occurs initially in young people; type 2, or non-insulin dependent diabetes, accounts for 90% of all cases. It affects mainly middle-aged or elderly people and is growing in significance and prevalence because of the ageing of the population. It is a chronic disease from which it is estimated that 6% to 7% of the population may suffer, that is 250,000 people or more in the community who may either be already diagnosed or not yet diagnosed. It is a significant and growing public health problem. There are approximately 55,000 diabetics on the long-term illness scheme which provides their drugs free of charge.

The prevalence of diabetes type 2 in particular is on the increase due to a number of factors including the ageing of the population. There are many complications, due particularly to blood vessel problems associated with eyes, kidneys, nerve damage, coronary artery disease and a whole range of other ailments. I will mention those again later.

Diabetes in pregnancy is also of particular concern in that it is associated with higher incidences of perinatal deaths and illness. For approximately 400 people each year diabetes is the primary cause of death. It obviously results in high costs for the health services mainly associated with such complications.

As regards the service provision for diabetes, most patients would be provided for in a primary care setting. The cornerstone of this is the general practitioner supplemented by practice or public health nurses, where available, or a variety of other practitioners, many of whom are in short supply. The benefits of this type of care are the convenience and continuity of access. I will come back to that later as well.

Many other patients, particularly those with type 1 diabetes, are treated within the hospital system by general physicians with an interest in the disease or in rarer situations by an endocrinologist who specialises in the treatment of diabetes. These consultants are part of a specialist team which includes, among others, clinical nurse specialists. These are interesting and fairly new appointments within the health system and give a particularly independent and important role to nurses in the treatment of diabetics. A third approach is through shared care between the hospital specialist team and the general practitioner. Again, I will come back to that.

I mentioned the high rate of complications that attend on people with diabetes. There is a high incidence of cardiovascular disease, coronary artery disease in particular. Over a number of years the additional staffing and facilities capacity within the cardiology system has hopefully picked up many of these cases.

Another complication, end stage renal disease, requires dialysis and then moves on to transplantation. This is an increasing problem. A significant number of people who develop this complication requiring dialysis and transplantation are diabetics. Some information on that was garnered a number of years ago on a pilot register. It suggested that 14% of patients being dialysed were diabetics. That is probably a significant underestimate. The number of people requiring dialysis will increase, unfortunately, as the years go on with the increase in the incidence of diabetes. In response to this there have been some investments in the whole area of dialysis. They are identified and outlined in the paper and I will not go into them.

The other area that is a frequent problem is retinal disease. This leads to blindness in many cases. The evidence for screening is convincing as an effective tool for preventing this complication. In that context the Department of Health and Children is supporting a pilot screening project in the North Western Health Board, which revolves around the annual examination of patients with diabetes who have eye complications. It is part of the integrated care strategy for people with diabetes.

As regards prevention, there are a number of initiatives, both under the cardiovascular and the general health promotional strategies. I have outlined those in the paper. They revolve around a number of approaches. First, there is the general population approach of health information, healthier living and eating and attention to matters such as obesity. For people who have diabetes there is the need to manage the particular risk factors they have in a more progressive and proactive way. When they do get things like cardiovascular complications such as myocardial infarction or heart attacks they must be treated aggressively and effectively and there are a number of initiatives on this at present, particularly in the Midland Health Board.

In terms of prevention the Department works closely with the Diabetes Federation of Ireland on the development of information and educational materials. That is referred to within the paper. As to how it is hoped the effects of the reform programme will impact on diabetes, I have identified a number of areas within the organisational reform strategy. For instance, as regards the development of the health services executive, we hope the unitary system of management of the entire system which is implicit in the new structure will result in a greater uniformity and consistency in the development of services around the country and in their quality and delivery. The Health Information and Quality Authority, which is another part of the reform programme, will have an important role in establishing standards and guidance for the care of a whole range of conditions including diabetes.

I would like to concentrate for a moment on the issue of strengthening primary care. Part of the strategy in the reform programme is to push forward the boundaries of primary care, under the new direction document. This is about developing a model of care that will provide an appropriate structure within the community to allow the shifting of care from secondary specialist to primary generalist care and to deliver the full range of health and personal and social services that are appropriate.

In the context of diabetes one of the pilot projects is in the Southern Health Board area, which the Chairman will be aware of. In Dingle, County Kerry the pilot project team has selected shared care of diabetes as one of its priorities. It is developing a pattern of shared care between the GPs, the health board and Tralee General Hospital, which covers the entire Dingle peninsula. It is an example of how structured shared care within the community setting can work, both for hospitals and primary care and importantly how in a sparse and remote region dependence on acute hospital care can be reduced.

I chaired a committee recently which set up a quality assurance framework for primary care. We have decided that diabetes will be chosen as the initial focus for the development of quality indicators in primary care. Within the acute hospital system reform there is provision for a range of both staffing and bed capacity improvements. We acknowledge there is a requirement for additional manpower, particularly in the area of diabetes. Hopefully, within the acute hospital programme that will be addressed because of the increasing need for diabetes services.

One of the problems being grappled with is the lack of comprehensive information, not only regarding the identification of people who either have or are at risk from diabetes, but also with regard to documenting the process and outcomes of the care that is given. That is an important part of assessing need, quality and outcome. We think the development of the health information strategy will provide both the strategic framework within which that information can be developed and also improve the operational capability to do it on the ground.

I have mentioned a number of other areas in the document as regards, for instance, the development of human resources. As services are being developed the strategic development of the personnel to deal with those services runs hand in hand. I mentioned specifically the developing of capacity within the public health nursing stream. The public health nurse has access to the populace at large and in particular to children as part of the school programme. The whole issue of health promotion and developing healthy lifestyles for children is important.

Finally, the whole area of developing chronic disease management protocols is important, particularly the inclusion of patients and their families in the development of those protocols. Ultimately in illnesses such as diabetes, which is a lifelong condition, it is far better if the patient and his or her family are the ultimate managers of the condition with the assistance of the professionals. That is a particularly important area.

I will summarise what I have said and emphasise what the issues are as contained in the paper: the problems with diabetes; the service provision that is there; some of the particular plans to improve services; and the role of the working group set up by the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin. He recognises that more work needs to be done on this. Nobody looking at this problem could reach any other conclusion. Having considered the matter and after a serious meeting with the Diabetes Federation of Ireland to consider its recent strategy document, the Minister has asked me to chair this working group. The first meeting will be held next week.

We hope to examine a number of issues which I have identified in the paper. These include the current and predicted epidemiology of diabetes, though there is no doubt that the prevalence of diabetes will increase. We will look at the preventive initiatives, including new ones such as screening for retinal disease, and will examine the current provision, including the need to better integrate and co-ordinate the existing services. We will also look at the need for further service provision and staffing. We hope to have our analysis and recommendations ready for consideration by the Minister by the summer, as it is important to have such a timeframe ahead of the Estimates campaign for next autumn.

I thank the Chairman and the committee for their attention. My colleagues and I will try to answer any questions and provide any clarifications. If we have not got the information to hand, we will try to get it as soon as possible.

In the UK, figures suggest that the number of people suffering from diabetes will treble by the year 2010, and costings have been given. What are the projections in Ireland, and what is the total cost of diabetes treatment?

The projections for prevalence revolve around the age of the population. Over the next five to ten years, the US and the UK, where populations have aged sooner than ours, so to speak, will have a significantly higher portion of their populations with diabetes. We are looking at something of the order of 8% to 10% prevalence in our community, i.e. perhaps half a million diabetics, within a reasonably short period of time. The figures could be of that order.

I cannot give any definite information on costing. We can cost some of the recent developments under the cardiovascular strategy and perhaps under the renal strategy. Because diabetes care is provided in a myriad of places and is part of the general health service, it is not easy to disentangle the specific care of diabetics from general care. Because we have so many diabetics, with serious and catastrophic complications in many cases, requiring very intensive acute hospital care, the cost must be very significant.

I thank Dr. Kiely for the presentation. The Chairman asked about the cost of services. I know from being a health board member that, as Dr. Kiely said, only part of the costs can be directly identified, i.e. what happens at general practitioner level and so on. The diabetes costs always involved at least 6% of the health budget. I read recently that the figure is now closer to 10% of the total health budget. If so, it is an enormous figure by any standards. If the 10% figure is correct it represents a figure of €1 billion. It is right that at last we are identifying diabetes as a target disease.

Dr. Kiely mentioned screening for retinal damage. That clearly involves people who have already been identified as having diabetes. He also spoke of chronic disease and management protocols, again involving people already identified as diabetics. My understanding is that if one has type 1 diabetes, the sufferer is aware of it quickly, but a person with type 2 diabetes might not be aware of it for ten years, during which time catastrophic damage might have taken place. Has the working group considered this, or has it had its first meeting yet?

It will take place next week.

One of the things we should consider is identifying the over-40s in terms of occasional screening every three or four years. I know one needs patient registration and some kind of database, but is that the kind of thing we should be doing, bringing in people over a certain age to undergo even a simple blood test? We should perhaps offer such a service free through GPs, or at least start with a large public information programme and see what people are at risk. So much damage can be prevented, not only in terms of costs but in terms of quality of life.

That is a very important point and I thank the Deputy for raising it. I mentioned earlier the development of the primary care structure and infrastructure and made reference to the pilot project in the Dingle peninsula. The main features of that programme include the establishment of a register along with protocols to do opportunistic screening in domicilary and practice settings. The issue of screening, identification by means of a simple blood test, should form the central part of any shared care protocol and any preventive protocol. In developing the primary care aspect of it, that would be a central part. It is something we will be pushing in the context of primary care.

I mentioned earlier the development of a quality assurance framework for primary care with diabetes at its centre. One of the recommendations in that area is the opportunistic intensive screening for diabetes of people at the appropriate age. It should be and is being pushed into the general delivery of primary care service.

Does the patient registration involve people known to have diabetes or is the entire population involved?

We are trying to register the entire population in the primary care framework and to identify within that population people of the appropriate age and those with risk factors. The latter are quite well known and include sedentary lifestyle, poor eating and obesity. Unfortunately, these risk factors are there for a number of other conditions too. Area identification is the cornerstone of any progress to be made in this area.

Is there any sign of the information strategy?

It is with the Government right now.

The need for it is critical.

I agree. The development of a strategic framework for information is necessary, and the operational capability in the service itself must be developed as part of the routine day to day work, with the important information generated as part of the day to day work. It need not be described as research, but simply part of the work.

I wish Dr. Kiely and the committee well. The figures he has given us are very significant, if not terrifying. He has predicted that perhaps half a million people in the population will suffer from diabetes. Only 55,000 people are on the long-term illness books. I wonder what that means. Is detection so low, or is it that many people do not need to be on long-term illness treatment?

As for the projected figure of half a million people, that is a gigantic figure. Is Dr. Kiely saying that this is approaching and that we had better start looking at it, or is he defining targets with the aim of reducing that figure by bringing in measures to prevent the enormous spread of a condition that can have very debilitating effects, along with huge costs to the State?

If one is developing any screening programme or more work at primary care level, will that be costed, and will the committee ensure that for example there will be a sufficient spread of GPs across the country? We currently have a real problem. I do not know how many times the working group must be told that in rural parts of Ireland and in areas of deprivation there is a shortage of general practitioners, with no one coming forward to replace those who are getting old, and some of whom are getting sick. In terms of the training programmes and ensuring that there are sufficient incentives for people to work in these areas, is this going to be part of the committee's work? If it is not part of its work it will be just another document. I appreciate that the Department is very committed to this but people are getting very weary of strategies, documents and reports with nothing behind them.

I am glad that Dr. Kiely mentioned obesity. I would have thought that this was a central issue. Among a generation of young people growing up we have the phenomenon of the bloated child. I do not recall that phenomenon in previous generations. Thin, starving children were more of a concern in the past. There has been a transformation in terms of the problem of obesity, particularly among young people. It is still a big problem among women and men, but children are now having their health put at risk because of the wrong diet, over-eating, sedentary lifestyles and the "couch potato" phenomenon.

That must be addressed, and it is not simply a matter of public information. That will have no visible impact. What about taxing inappropriate foods or ensuring that restaurant fast food outlets do not create this very large helping one gets in America, where the standard helping is grotesquely large relative to the intake that is actually required by a human being? Are we going to deal with those issues? If we do not deal with those issues are we going to invest in sport in our schools? I have no particular interest in sport but these are the kinds of changes we need. The Minister is bringing in a smoking ban, which is a very significant change. If we do not have the same kind of significant change in terms of obesity, particularly among young people, the Department's figures will be too conservative. I ask Dr. Kiely to respond to that.

Dr. Kiely talked about the acute hospital programme and the additional manpower and bed capacity. There is no additional bed capacity. No new beds are planned for this year. In the Eastern Health Board area alone, we have just lost €1 million to St. Vincent's Hospital and €888,000 to St Columbkille's because of a case-mix measure that is flawed and is penalising patients unnecessarily. How can Dr. Kiely talk about additional staffing and beds capacity in hospitals that are overwhelmed with demand and are now being penalised inappropriately in a way that will affect patient care and create more waiting lists? Many of those people on waiting lists are diabetics and need attention from a specialist.

The Deputy made a series of points that I have taken, and if I miss anything she can come back. I will ask some of my colleagues on the hospital side to deal in particular with the bed capacity issue.

The Deputy's first question was about the long-term illness provision for 55,000 people and how that stacks up against the fact that we may have 250,000 diabetics. There are a number of explanations for this. Firstly, a large number of diabetics do not know yet that they are diabetics, so they are simply not on treatment. Almost a rule of thumb has been developed over the years called the law of halves - half the people who are diabetics do not know it; half of them who are diagnosed do not need drug treatment and so on. Thus, if one takes half of the 250,000, that leaves 125,000 who are known diabetics.

A large number of them is treated by diet and exercise and those types of measures alone, so they do not receive the kinds of drugs and treatment that are dealt with under the long-term illness scheme. A large number of them would be GMS patients who do not need the long-term illness card because they are on GMS. That cuts the 125,000 figure by the number who do not need drug treatment or are on the GMS, bringing us down to the figure of 60,000-odd who do require it.

I would be pretty certain that most diabetics who require a long-term illness card will apply for one to provide for their rather expensive drugs and complication drugs, as they are entitled also to hypertension and hypercholesterolaemia drugs. It is hard to imagine that there are people who know they have diabetes and are not applying for the long-term illness card. I would say that figure probably captures the vast majority of people who are diabetics and need the card. I hope that is a reasonable explanation of how the numbers are brought down to about that level.

In terms of primary health care and developing the capacity with primary health care——

Are Dr. Kiely and his colleagues going to set targets in regard to this?

Targets in relation to?

In terms of the projections they have and a target to reduce the projected figure?

In the context of the group we are setting up, whose first meeting will be next week, the first thing we will look at is the current and projected epidemiology and what to do about that. It would be unconscionable for us to say that this is coming down the track and that we are simply going to wait for it to arrive and then do something about it. We will take a number of initiatives, and I might ask Mr. Brogan from the health promotion unit to talk about some of these, not simply health promotion initiatives but more active interventions in terms of healthy eating and so on.

The central answer to the Deputy's question is no, we are simply not going to wait for the train to arrive with all these people on it. We are going to go up the track and see if we can prevent it from coming down the track. I simply do not know yet what the actual targets will be in terms of slowing down the rate of increase but we will try to come to some determination within the group I am chairing, beginning next week.

In respect of developing the capacity within primary care, all I can say to the Deputy is that the primary care strategy has been put out and has been accepted. A number of pilot projects are seriously under way around the country and there are plans for more of them. In the context of developing the diabetes plan, I would hope to graft on from the diabetes plan proposals not only in regard to those specific primary care projects but into the current way general practice and community care services are delivered. The vast majority of primary care will be delivered through the current system for a number of years yet while the primary care strategy is being implemented. Hopefully arising from the committee I will chair next week will be proposals both in terms of the new direction of primary care document and strengthening the infrastructure in the current system.

At primary care level it is not only a problem with general practitioners. There are problems in regard to some other very important professionals who deal with diabetes. It is very important that people like chiropodists be available in the community to take care of diabetics' feet because if that is not done we then get infections, ulcers and amputations.

Interventions from professionals like that are almost as important within the primary care context as the development of general practitioner or public health numbers. Altogether, they should, and hopefully will, be able to provide an integrated package of care. That is the plan. As the committee knows, the resource issue must come next, and how it is resourced, managed and delivered is a slightly wider problem, but we are certainly committed to it.

Obesity is obviously a major public health issue. I was in the United States recently, as committee members may have read in the newspapers, in connection with the smoking ban, and we talked to the US Secretary of State for Health, Mr. Thompson, who described this as the biggest epidemic within the United States health care system. As a social, economic and health care problem, obesity is for them the new epidemic. Perhaps Mr. Grogan may be able to dilate a little on some of the proposals there are in regard to the obesity issue. Deputy McManus also mentioned the bed capacity issue, and with some pleasure I will ask Mr. O'Sullivan to deal with that if he does not mind.

Mr. Brian Brogan

The obesity issue is very pertinent in the context of the discussion on diabetes. We gather our health behaviours and lifestyle information from a SLÁN survey, the second of which was published in 2003. It showed a national increase in the numbers overweight from 42% of the population in 1998 to 47% in 2002. Within that, obesity is now at a level of 13% of the population compared to 10% four years previously. It is an issue, as Dr. Kiely has referred to, across the developed Western world, and one which has been given much thought and focus at a policy and strategic level in Europe and the United States in order to address it.

Obesity arises when one's energy intake is greater than one's energy output. That leads to an excess of fat storage and hence obesity. That is linked to diet and activity levels. A British survey has shown that the energy intake of adults has decreased against the trend of increasing obesity. This demonstrates how significant a fact physical activity, or being active, is towards combating obesity. Under the cardiovascular health and the health promotion strategies of the last four years we have significantly enhanced the community dietetics and physical activities services across the board. Some 36 additional community dieticians have been employed and 12 physical activity health promotion officers, from a base of zero four or five years ago.

The health promotion aspect is not a quick win solution. It is a long-term success rate and the programmes and structures being developed will have a long-term impact. The work is primarily focused on schools and disadvantaged groups in order to tackle those sections of society where the services are most needed. With reference to Deputy McManus's point, in a health promotional context, the emphasis is on national public awareness campaigns. The national healthy eating week campaign has been successful over the last 11 years. It has achieved a 60% awareness of the healthy eating message, with 30% of those who are aware positively changing their lifestyles as a result. Similarly, the recent let-go campaign, which is about trying to promote at least 30 minutes a day activity for health benefit has been successful as part of the all-Ireland physical activity strategy "to get alive, get active".

It is slightly worrying that on the activity front when the statistics are analysed, between six out of ten people in the population are not sufficiently active as regards health benefit. That is a generic issue and as people get older they become less active. Hence, the SLÁN survey gives the relevant statistics and helps to identify and address the different groups, depending on the topic so that population trends may be reversed in these matters.

As regards childhood obesity the Deputy is quite right. The evidence is that the change in lifestyle is such that children are now more sedentary than hitherto. They tend to eat fast foods and high fat and sugary diets, all of which contribute to an increase in obesity. When we speak of targets the goal is not primarily to reduce obesity but to halt its rise, to prevent overweight people from entering the obese category and then to reduce obesity. If it is looked at in stages, that is the national target strategy as regards obesity.

A number of initiatives exist for children at school. The social, personal and health education programme, for example, SPHE, in the primary schools, is a partnership between the Departments of Health and Children and Education and Science and promotes healthy lifestyles in the school setting. A number of schools are signed up on a voluntary basis to what is called the "health promoting school" approach. It is a whole school approach. Some people may be affected by school lunches on a daily basis, where the children's lunch must be a healthy meal, with chocolate bars etc. sent back. Last year playground marking initiatives were introduced in certain areas to bring back things like hopscotch and so on so that children could be active in the playground.

The important aspect about children in the health promotion context is that if they are caught young enough they will keep the messages for life. Hence schools are always important as regards everything that we do. We work with the Irish Heart Foundation on action for life which trains teachers in the areas of physical education. We also work in partnership with the Irish Sports Council in targeting the disadvantaged in after-school activities. There is a buntús initiative, which is a bag of tricks or equipment to promote activity in this area.

Health must drive the agenda in combating obesity. It is vital to bring about societal change in the key aspects, which requires bringing in partners such as education and environment so that together we can make society and environment and the choices people make healthy and easy. In that context and in order to address the emergence of obesity, the Minister for Health and Children is in the process of establishing a task force to set out a blueprint strategy for pulling together the different strands for addressing obesity in the future.

Mr. Denis O’Sullivan

The Deputy raised two or three points as regards capacity. Case mix is not an area that I work in but I understand the overall financing of this model is the same in any one year. There are adjustments, positive or negative, across different hospitals, but these do not result in an overall reduction in the budget. They may in the case of an individual hospital as has happened in south-east Dublin, but in overall terms, no.

That is not reassuring when the money goes to Letterkenny and it is lost in the Eastern Region Health Area——

Like St. Vincent's and the Coombe that are hugely deficient hospitals.

——where the demand is greater.

Mr. Denis O’Sullivan

That model has been in place for a number of years. I would just make the general point that it does not represent a reduction in hospital expenditure. It is an adjustment across hospitals and is intended to be efficiency based. I cannot comment on the detail of the individual hospital and how the figures were arrived at.

It seems strange that the most efficient hospitals are those with the most beds closed.

Mr. Denis O’Sullivan

: The Deputy mentioned bed capacity and the fact that no additional beds were being allocated this year. There is full revenue funding in place to commission the balance of the bed capacity initiative launched by the Minister, about 140 in the current year. That revenue funding is with the ERHA and the various health boards. It refers to the current year, carried forward from last year.

Is there none this year?

Mr. Denis O’Sullivan

: That is in the current year as well.

No, that refers to last year. There was to be additional money for this year.

Mr. Denis O’Sullivan

: The beds which were not opened out of the approved initiative are still fully funded. The funding is still in place to increase the overall number by 140 this year. That in turn should have a knock-on benefit in terms of activity.

As regards the general link between diabetes and the points the Deputy makes about bed capacity, despite the constraints and the acknowledgement of additional capacity needs, the system has turned over significant increases year on year in terms of the number of patients discharged, who are diagnosed with diabetes. For diabetes which is the principal diagnosis, the number of in-patient discharges over the last three years has gone up by 15%. The figure is 3,700 for type 2 diabetes and 2,800 for type 1. In respect of people who are admitted with other conditions and who are also identified as diabetic, over the last three years type 2 is up by 26% and type by 9% for patients discharged by the system.

The capacity constraints are accepted, as has been well documented, but still the increases manifest themselves year on year. The other key aspects considered important and identified by the federation as key areas for development would be in consultant manpower in specialties such as endocrinology as the principal one, but also in areas of vascular surgery and nephrology, which link into increases in renal disease. I will not give the detail unless it is required as regards increases in consultant numbers but there have been increases year on year across those specialties. We expect the focus in a hospital context to be probably two-fold, from the working group's deliberations: increased consultant numbers in those particular specialties and infrastructural expansion in the context of out-patients. The in-patient issue is not as significant in the context of the strategy as it evolves.

The figures given to us are quite alarming. We could be looking at half a million people with diabetes. That is going to cost. The question has been put by the Chairman, but what sort of figures are expected? Some 10% of the budget has been mentioned. Projecting into the future, how significant will it be in terms of costs?

I welcome the fact that the working group has been set up, but this is a multi-factorial disease and it requires a multi-faceted response. I have heard talk about the dieticians, etc., which is all well and good, but there are certain things that could be done now which could have a very quick return. The delegation spoke of co-operating with the Departments of Education and Science and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I suggest that they also could co-operate with the Department of Transport because there is one measure which could be implemented immediately. We have talked about sport. Many kids do not like sport, but in our day even people who did not like sport walked and cycled to school, and got their exercise in that way. Nowadays very few kids walk or cycle to school. I know that because I bring my own kids to school and most children go to school with their parents in cars. This adds to the traffic congestion in the city but also means that they are getting a sedentary lifestyle from day one. If one looks at the experience of London where Ken Livingstone has increased cycling by 30% very quickly, the same could be done in this city by providing safe routes to school for children so that they could cycle or walk.

What we experience here is a cultural fear. Parents do not want to let their children even outside the gate because they are afraid of traffic, child abuse or whatever. Owing to this fear, kids are kept indoors and are watching television, and that has given rise to this phenomenon of the 'couch potato'. I want the delegation to comment specifically on the question of liaising with the Department of Transport to do something with immediate effect. This can be done.

What ever happened to the fat tax? The Chairman was wheeled out on "Today with Pat Kenny" to defend it but I have not heard much talk about it since. I acknowledge that there may be difficulties in implementing it, but it does raise awareness and it can be done. The Minister stated that he was considering it. I want to know where it stands at this stage and if the Department is serious about it.

I welcome the delegation. No doubt diabetes is the forgotten disease. While I welcome the setting up of the working party, I have grave reservations about why it will take six months to give information which, if one looks at the literature, is already available in some shape or form. I would have expected that perhaps the working party, if it put its mind to it, should have the information in front of us in a month, not in six months. Knowing the way the system works, it will probably be another six months before the recommendations are worked out. All the time there is this growing problem of the diabetic population increasing or not being identified. Surely it is obvious to everybody that if a comprehensive screening programme were instituted at family practice level, and if the family practices were resourced properly with diabetic and practice nurses working in conjunction with one another, then a significant number of the diabetic patients would be identified early and treated at a very low cost to the State before they developed complications.

I thank the Deputies for their questions. Deputy Gormley raised two issues, the transport initiative and the fat tax. Mr. Brogan will answer the question on a transport initiative and how we might deal with that through health promotion.

Mr. Brogan

In the context of doing all our work in health promotion, we link with all relevant Departments and statutory bodies to put societal or structural environmental changes into place so that the healthy choice becomes the easy choice for people. The particular example referred to by the Deputy is apt in the sense that there has been a huge and obvious cultural shift. Apart from cultural fear, some of the anecdotal evidence would also suggest reasons such as working parents and the pressures of life.

The Department, on a number of occasions, has tried unsuccessfully to organise national walk to school days and these reveal all the many barriers to the very issue of people walking to school. It is always more difficult to do it on the scale we would prefer. Notwithstanding that, it does happen across the country in a more ad hoc rather than nationally structured way.

In the course of all of our work with health promotion, we will continue to liaise with those Departments to which Deputy Gormley referred, including the Department of Transport, on all of our work in promoting the environmental and societal structures and changes necessary to promote the health of the populace.

I must admit that I have no knowledge on the current position of the fat tax. Unless one of my colleagues has some information on it, I have to say that I will make the inquiry and get that information back to the Deputy as quickly as possible.

As far as I know, the Department is not going ahead with it.

On what basis?

That may be the case.

It is an important issue in terms of creating a change in the way people are eating. Will that be part of the brief of these officials? Presumably if they recommend that this should proceed, it will add enormous weight to the case.

No pun intended.

Adding weight to anything is the last thing we want.

Deputy McManus is correct. It is an important issue which should be addressed by Dr. Kiely's group.

Under the second term of reference about examining health promotion and preventive initiatives, I will make a point, having had this meeting with the committee, of bringing it on to the table as a particular issue. I will give the committee that undertaking.

There is a bit of confusion among the public when there is mention of a fat tax in that they think somebody will go around with a calliper measuring the level of adipose tissue. While we would all recommend that it should be pursued, it is actually a tax on foods that would cause obesity.

I take Deputy Devins's point about the timeframe. I specifically said that we would have it before the summer. I take the point he made about this examination of the issues being based on information that is already available. I doubt very much that the committee which I will chair will generate any new information. It is simply a matter of analysing it in our context and then putting together the bits and pieces of the jigsaw to try to roll out something that is credible, effective and visible over the next period of time. I take his point about the timeframe and I certainly will do my best.

Some of my colleagues here are on the group. The health service providers have four representatives on the group and we also have a number of representatives from the Diabetes Federation. I pay tribute to the Diabetes Federation for the excellent work it has done over the years, particularly by way of bringing together the document, Securing the Future, which was extremely well researched and put together. That, of course, will be central to the discussions. I will do my very best to bring forward the recommendations as quickly as possible, particularly in the light of what has Deputy Devins said.

I would agree with Deputy Devins about the development of the capacity at community care and primary care level. It should be the cornerstone. It has been proven to be very effective in terms of early diagnosis and good management. Arising from this committee report, I hope there will be effective recommendations about the development of the capacity in primary care to deal with diabetes.

My experience of talking to health promotion officers is that lifestyle health promotion in schools is haphazard and there is no continuum. There is no one individual in every school with which the health promotion unit in health boards can making ongoing contact. There is a system of posts of responsibility within all the schools. What interaction has there been with the Department of Education and Science?

Never has there been a post of healthy lifestyle officer where one teacher in each of the schools would be trained for such a post. He or she would be directly responsible to the young people and responsible for policy within those schools. There would be a permanent link between the health promotion unit and the school itself.

In the UK, the possibility of banning the tuck shop is under examination as this is where chocolates, sweets and fizzy drinks are available. Many schools make quite substantial income from the tuck shops. There is a move to provide a "healthy corner" where fruit is available. Has the Department looked at how this might be done here? What interaction exists?

In national schools, the emphasis on exercise and physical education in the context of the overall curriculum is negligible. Has any discussion taken place on a future programme within national schools about physical education? A lot of the schools may not have the sports halls that would be required for this. What is being done to ensure that this becomes part of their daily diet of physical exercise?

Mr. Brogan

I may have to revert to the Chairman. In the health promotion unit, we have a youth officer whose function is to liaise directly on a full-time basis with the Department of Education and Children and other organisations involved in the promotion of health activity for youth. I will give some of the detail behind this in writing and send it to the committee.

Generally, it is accurate to say that the link between health promotion and schools has developed significantly over the last decade. There are SPHE officers in health promotion units around the country who link with schools. In the schools, this may be a teacher, or an individual who has an interest in the area, rather than somebody who has been assigned to it. I suspect that to be the case but need to clarify it.

The issue of the tuck shop and the "healthy corner" is something I will return to. Discussions are taking place around the development of a physical activity curriculum with Department of Education and Children and our schools or youth person. If I can forward the details of that to the committee, I will serve the committee best.

My apologies for having to leave and I am sorry that I missed the full presentation. How does the witness expect matters to turn out, with diabetes and other diseases, when there is a lack of funds in primary care, no proper investment there, when strategies for primary care seem to be neglected, when the necessary basic machinery is lacking to ensure that GPs and hospitals can do their job properly?

Hospitals have been penalised for so-called inefficiencies. In our own general hospital in Mayo machinery broke down which the Department had been informed was well past its sell-by date. The Department waited for the machinery to break down before it thought of replacing it. Owing to the neglect of the Department, the hospital could not do the work it was supposed to do, yet it is penalised. How can one expect any programme, such as diabetes, to work, when primary care is inadequately funded? This is where the greatest number of people who do the major work are based. They are short-staffed and recruitment problems exist. That is the position in primary care.

In order to make whatever programme is brought in actually work, capital must be invested. Capacity on the ground must also exist to ensure that it can take place. This is not happening now.

I thank the Deputy. In the Deputy's absence some of these issues came up. In my presentation and in my responses to some Deputies, I agreed thoroughly with the central point that the Deputy makes that the development of service for diabetic patients and the prevention of diabetes have to be based at the primary care level. I have no argument with the Deputy.

A charge has been levelled that even though the primary care strategy exists, the necessary resources have not been put in place. That is partially true. However, substantially, primary care is being developed and resourced. We have a budget of €10 billion which is more than last year. In the context of service planning, a good and rational amount of that goes into primary care. The primary care new direction document sets this out clearly over a number of years and it has to be over this timeframe that the capacity and infrastructure for primary care have to be built up.

Currently, ten or 12 primary care pilot projects are being put in place. They are substantially in place and are beginning to work the way the rest of the system will work over the next number of years. I admit that the resources required for a comprehensive all-embracing primary care service for diabetic patients are simply not there. We hope to put it in place.

As part of its terms of reference, the committee that I chair examines both the current provision and future needs concerning both manpower and services. As chief medical officer, I hope that primary care will be the focus and the driving force for the development of services, not only for diabetes but for a whole range of chronic diseases. I do not abrogate my responsibilities but the resource issue is beyond me.

Primary care has to be the driver in this and I will do everything I can to ensure that it is. I will set the framework and the professional, technical and medical notions within that framework which will allow it to be driven in that direction. I will recommend what resources are required to do that. We hope it happens. It will happen incrementally, over the years.

Could I ask that Mr. Brogan, when he has discussions with the Department of Education and Science, try to establish the balance of the diet that is provided in the meals which are supplied in designated schools? There have been complaints that it is not what it should be.

I thank everyone for attending today and for outlining the national diabetes strategy in such a comprehensive way. It has been very enlightening. I offer Dr. Kiely best wishes with his new committee. We hope that Deputy Devins will report back in three months rather than six.

Mr. Brogan

On behalf of the delegation, the Minister for Health and Children and the Secretary General of the Department of Health and Children, I thank the Chairman for inviting us and I thank you for the courtesy with which we were received. We thank the members of the committee for the interesting and robust interaction which we appreciate.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.09 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 5 February, 2004.
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