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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 22 May 2012

Report on Tallaght Hospital: Discussion with Health Information and Quality Authority

I welcome, from the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, Dr. Tracey Cooper, chief executive, and Mr. Marty Whelan, head of communications and stakeholder engagement. Last Thursday, HIQA published a comprehensive and much anticipated investigative report on the quality, safety and governance of care at Tallaght Hospital, specifically its accident and emergency department. I compliment the authority on the swiftness and thoroughness of its investigation. On behalf of the joint committee, I extend members' deepest sympathy to the family of the individual who died in Tallaght Hospital. The joint committee is very much concerned about the issues of patient safety and governance in our hospitals. The report raises serious issues in regard to the quality of care and patient safety at Tallaght Hospital.

I advise witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I ask members and witnesses to switch off mobile telephones as a sign of respect for staff who are recording proceedings and for those who may wish to use our recordings at a later date in the transmission of proceedings.

I invite Dr. Cooper to make her opening remarks.

Dr. Tracey Cooper

On behalf of the Health Information and Quality Authority, I thank the Joint Committee on Health and Children for giving me the opportunity to discuss the Tallaght investigation report. I am joined today by Mr. Marty Whelan, HIQA's head of communications and stakeholder engagement.

When we appeared before the joint committee in January members raised our investigation into Tallaght Hospital and I gave a commitment to come back before the committee when our investigation had been completed and the report published. We very much welcome the opportunity to appear before the committee and I thank members for suspending their scheduled meeting for this purpose. As the Chairman noted, HIQA published its report on Tallaght Hospital last Thursday. I am pleased to be here to discuss its findings and any recommendations members may wish to raise. Members may have noted that some recommendations relate specifically to the hospital, while others relate to similar hospitals nationally and a number of others relate specifically to the governance of the wider health and social care system.

I will briefly summarise the main findings of the investigation. I would also like to consider some of the important lessons from the investigation and explore with members some ideas on how we can use this report to further modernise our health system. I will first provide some background information. Last June, the board of the Health Information and Quality Authority took the decision to instigate an investigation into the quality, safety and governance of the care provided to patients who required acute admission to the Adelaide and Meath Hospital, Dublin, incorporating the National Children's Hospital. I will refer to the hospital as Tallaght Hospital throughout the presentation.

In carrying out the investigation, the authority examined in detail the quality, safety and governance of the system of care in place for patients requiring both acute and planned care in the hospital, in particular, those patients admitted through the emergency department. The authority also investigated the effectiveness of the board of the hospital and the corporate and clinical governance arrangements it had in place to assure itself that the risks to patients were being appropriately managed, particularly the risks to patients receiving care in the emergency department and requiring acute admission.

We investigated the effectiveness of the planning, accountability and oversight arrangements that were in place between the Health Service Executive, HSE, and Tallaght Hospital, as a service provider in receipt of State funds, with a specific focus on how the HSE held the hospital to account for the quality and safety of the services that it was providing. We also considered the national context for patients receiving similar services across the country to compare the performance of the emergency department in Tallaght Hospital with other hospitals in the same period and inform national learning for the purposes of improving the quality and safety of care for these patients.

The findings of the report are presented in three main sections, namely, unscheduled or acute care, scheduled or planned care, and leadership, governance and management. On the first section, the patient referral pathway to the emergency department of the hospital was considered to be similar to those of other hospitals in Ireland, with a similar profile and with the majority of patients being self-referrals. The lack of an out-of-hours general practitioner, GP, service or primary care service in the area meant that patients or their GPs may have believed they had no other option but to attend or refer the patient to the hospital's emergency department to accelerate treatment.

While patients were in the emergency department, they were under the care of the emergency medicine consultant. However, at the commencement of the investigation effective arrangements were not in place to ensure the seamless transfer of clinical responsibility for patients from their clinical assessment in the emergency department to their clinical assessment by the relevant speciality team through to their admission to a ward. This raised a significant concern about the hospital's ability to ensure that patients, at all times, had a designated consultant who was clinically responsible and accountable for their care. This deficit was brought to the attention of the chief executive at the time and was subsequently addressed by the hospital in November.

The average waiting time in the emergency department for a non-admitted patient between January to August 2011 was from six to seven hours. We also found that some of these patients were waiting up to 61 hours before being discharged. With regard to patients who attended the emergency department and subsequently required inpatient admission, while awaiting transfer to an inpatient bed these patients were accommodated either within a designated area within the emergency department or on the corridor adjacent to it. Some 86% of the admitted patients were accommodated on this corridor and they waited, on average, a further 13 hours for an inpatient bed, with the longest waiting time reported as 140 hours. This was an unacceptable situation for patients.

We were so concerned at that time that we undertook an unannounced inspection of the emergency department on 24 August 2011 and we identified a number of serious concerns specific to the use of the corridor adjacent to the emergency department as a waiting area for admitted sick patients awaiting an inpatient bed. These concerns had the potential to compromise the quality and safety of care for these patients and the capacity of the emergency department staff to provide a timely assessment for newly arriving patients in the department. We wrote to the chief executive the following day and on 29 August it was confirmed that the use of the corridor for patients awaiting inpatient beds had ceased. This type of situation is not satisfactory for patients and in the view of the authority it is a serious risk to patient safety and should cease in every emergency department where it occurs in Ireland.

We then looked at the data for all hospitals in Ireland providing emergency department services for the same 24-hour period. As we know, waiting times for patients in Ireland's emergency departments has been a long-standing concern from a patient safety and quality perspective. From a national perspective, the authority compared the performance of emergency departments across the country for the period 23-24 August and, through the data provided by the HSE, found that patients attending the majority of emergency departments in Ireland - 33 at that time - experienced waiting times of greater than six hours, with the longest waiting times of up to 115 hours for patients who were discharged without being admitted and 137 hours for patients who were admitted.

We also found inconsistencies in the level and quality of data that was provided by the HSE with regard to the 33 public hospitals and the adequacy of the information gathering and analysis processes in place to performance manage these emergency departments from the viewpoints of patient experience and timeliness. Nine of those hospitals were unable to provide us with any of the data electronically. At that time, these findings identified serious issues of quality of care and patient safety and raised serious concerns with regard to how these services were being managed.

I will now summarise the findings relating to scheduled or planned care. The investigation found that the resource capacity for the radiology services was under pressure to respond efficiently to the total demand for unscheduled or acute, scheduled, outpatient and community care services. The hospital had contracted a third party provider to reduce the waiting time for ultrasound scans. However, it was reported to the authority that some patients were waiting long periods for imaging tests. For example, it was reported that some outpatients could be waiting up to nine months for a CT or MRI scan. We concluded that the extended waiting times for reporting for both inpatient and outpatient diagnostic imaging tests required further review and improvement.

At the time of the investigation, the hospital had commenced significant work on an outpatient turnaround project The aim of this was to address the issue of outpatient waiting lists. In June 2011, some 52% of all patients were waiting beyond 90 days to be seen in the outpatient department by a specialist team. Excessive waiting times for outpatient appointments can result in GPs referring patients or patients self referring through alternative pathways in order to access care – including patients being referred or referring themselves to the emergency department. The hospital had exceeded the national overall figure for day case patients waiting less than six months and was in line with other hospitals with regard to patients waiting less than six months for elective admission and same-day admission.

We found that the hospital was outside the national average of 5.9 days for the average length of stay for all types of patient. The significance of this is that the length of a patient's stay can be safely and significantly reduced by ensuring that certain practices are in place. For example, structured early morning ward rounds by senior clinical decision makers should be undertaken so that patients, when fit for discharge, can be discharged any day of the week. We found that proactive patient discharge planning, including early morning ward rounds, use of estimated date of discharge and timely patient discharge planning were not consistently supported in the wide range of clinical disciplines in the hospital. In addition, we found that the historic lack of an integrated approach to patient admission and discharge planning had contributed to challenges at the hospital with regard to the timely discharge of patients.

In June 2011, some 69% of scheduled patients at the hospital were waiting less than six months for an inpatient appointment. Nationally, at the time of the investigation, no hospital waiting times for inpatient waiting lists had been published. This is a concern for the authority and we recommend that these figures are nationally published and that all service providers should, as a priority, ensure that they have the appropriate arrangements in place to formally review and prioritise patient waiting lists in a structured manner.

The final section of the report with which I will deal relates to leadership, governance and management of the hospital. With regard to board governance, we found that the board of the hospital did not have effective arrangements in place to adequately direct and govern the hospital, nor did it function in an effective way. The hospital's governing charter is not in line with modern corporate governance principles. The hospital lacked an organisation-wide strategic vision and culture and failed to adequately respond to the significant changes in health care delivery and advances in modern corporate governance. The collective membership of the board did not reflect the relevant diversity of knowledge, skills and competencies required to carry out the full range of oversight responsibilities, nor was the appointment process in line with modern corporate governance principles.

The charter provided for the establishment of a number of board committees which were required to report to the board on their activities. These committees, with the exception of the transitional board of management, had no executive powers but rather advised, reported to and made recommendations to the board. We found little information as to how the board, or any of its committees, oversaw and sufficiently assured themselves that the hospital was delivering services in line with the service plan agreed with the HSE as articulated in the section 38 of the Health Act 2004 with regard to the service agreement established and the resources provided.

During the course of the investigation, information came to the attention of the authority that raised concerns about the effectiveness of the governance arrangements in place for financial management, financial transparency and contractual commitment control. In particular, we were concerned that the hospital did not have the internal controls in place to ensure its compliance with public procurement legislation. In October 2011, due to significant concerns we had with regard to the corporate and clinical governance arrangements in place at the hospital, in particular concerns relating to the effectiveness of the board's governance arrangements, we met with the Minister for Health to advise him of these concerns and subsequently issued preliminary draft recommendations to the Minister to help mitigate the risks at that time. Subsequently, we also met with and wrote to then Comptroller and Auditor General highlighting our concerns about the financial and corporate governance arrangements at the hospital and referring them to him. On 9 November 2011, the Minister for Health and the Church of Ireland Archbishop of Dublin announced a series of initiatives to reform the governance structure of the hospital and a new interim board was established in December.

Executive management arrangements at the hospital had, over the past three years, gone through a number of significant changes, with four members of staff acting in the role of chief executive over that time. There was no clear scheme of delegation from the board to the chief executive or to the executive management for delegating accountability with regard to delivery and performance at the hospital. It was of serious concern to the authority that there was a reported ambiguity as to who had overall executive accountability for the quality and safety of the services delivered, and an apparent lack of integration across the corporate and clinical governance arrangements. The effective management arrangements needed to facilitate the delivery of high quality, safe and reliable care and support, by allocating the necessary resources through informed decisions and actions, were not sufficiently in place. The turnover of senior executives in the hospital, as well as the ongoing acting status of individuals in key positions, created challenges in the leadership and management of the hospital.

We found that the accountability and oversight arrangements in place to govern the relationship between the HSE and the hospital were not sufficiently effective. The service arrangement - the term for the contract of services between the HSE and the hospital - was not used by the HSE to its full potential to seek the necessary assurances from the hospital that the services that it was funded to provide, on behalf of the HSE and on behalf of the State, improved, promoted and protected patients in the most efficient and effective manner possible. Furthermore, there was no reconciliation between the funds available to the hospital, the budgetary overspend, the catchment population areas, innovation and research allocation, demand and capacity and the core business of delivering high quality safe care.

There was no evidence available to the authority to demonstrate a clear understanding of the collective roles and responsibilities of each statutory and non-statutory hospital's contribution to the overall delivery of the HSE's Dublin and mid-Leinster service plan, as part of the HSE's national service plan. The HSE did not describe a service model and there was no clear direction provided for the hospital.

It was important for us to consider the findings from the Tallaght investigation and consider them as part of the health system. Given the substantial amount of public money that is entrusted to service providers in receipt of State funds, the authority has recommended that there should be a robust mechanism in place to oversee the recruitment, appointment, performance and replacement of board members, chief executives and other executives of these service providers. We also believe that there should be greater involvement in the performance management of the chairperson of a board by the State, and in the performance management of the chief executive by the chairperson of the board and also by the State, to ensure that any service provider - health or social care - in receipt of State funds is providing good, safe services within the resources available.

In a system that is facing considerable challenges, the effectiveness of the governance arrangements through which public funds are allocated, defined and performance managed is critical. This requires the establishment of a clearly defined operating framework for the State that should outline the key elements of the effective governance and operation of a high quality, safe and reliable system which is designed to deliver the most accessible service in the most cost and clinically effective way within the resources available. A special measures framework should also be established which should actively address and act on circumstances in which substantial and persistent poor performance occurs from the board or the executive management of a service provider in receipt of State funds. This should contain the provisions for intervention orders whereby the Minister for Health believes that a hospital, or any other service provider, is not performing one or more of its functions adequately, or that there are significant failings in the way it is being run. This should include quality of care, patient safety and financial management issues.

The findings of this investigation reflect a history of long-standing challenges in the leadership, governance, performance and management of the hospital, which were manifest in the persistent and generally accepted tolerance of the unacceptable practice of patients lying on trolleys in corridors for long periods of time. It also reflects a history of a hospital providing care to a substantial number of the population that was allowed to struggle on despite a number of substantial governance and management issues in regard to quality, safety, planning and budgetary management which were present over a number of years. Despite a number of attempts to address the governance of the hospital, and a number of improvement reviews having been undertaken, sufficient action was not taken by the hospital itself or the HSE to address these issues. This reflected a failure not only in the governance of the hospital but also in the governance of the health system, which should effectively hold a service provider in receipt of State funds to account.

As we stated in our report, every day there are patients who receive good, safe care at Tallaght Hospital and there are patients who could receive better and safer care at the hospital. Since the investigation commenced, there have been significant changes and improvements in the leadership and governance in the hospital. We believe that this investigation is a seminal point in the journey to modernising the way we run our health system. The business of person-centred health care is far too important to be run, managed and governed in a way that does not reflect a high performance, high quality and high delivery mindset from patient to policy maker. Ignoring persistent poor performance, as was the case here, and not having or using the levers and drivers to address this, is no longer acceptable in a modern-day health and social care system. This must change.

This investigation includes recommendations for improvement that are specific to Tallaght Hospital - seven of the 76 in total - recommendations that relate to hospitals nationally, and also recommendations that relate to the governance and performance of the wider health system. Tallaght Hospital will be required to develop an implementation plan for the recommendations which should support the improvement programme currently in place at the hospital. Every other hospital will be required to assess itself against these recommendations and develop an implementation plan for improvement in order to meet them. Specifically, in respect of the existing boards of service providers in receipt of State funds, and the recommendations that relate to these boards assessing themselves against the relevant recommendations within the report, we recommend that the Department of Health should establish a mechanism to review the assessment and arising action plans and consider any appropriate mechanism for modernising the constitutional basis and composition of such boards where applicable.

The HSE should monitor all hospitals and social care providers in receipt of State funds against the implementation plans as part of the service arrangement and as part of its ongoing performance delivery reviews with each provider. Last week the Minister for Health approved the "National Standards for Safer Better Healthcare". We will shortly begin providing support to providers to implement the standards and will subsequently begin a substantial monitoring programme, which will also include the implementation of these recommendations as part of that process. These standards will be the first step in the trajectory towards a licensing system for the health care system. The recommendations discussed today are consistent with the objectives of the above national standards and the future direction for licensing.

Given the significant system-wide governance recommendations outlined in this report, it is essential that there is clinical, managerial and political commitment to their implementation in order to drive further improvements in the quality, safety and governance of the care provided to our population.

Thank you, Dr. Cooper, for your very sobering and challenging presentation to us today. As Chairman of the committee, I received communication this morning from the chief executive of Tallaght Hospital, Eilis Hardiman, which I e-mailed to you all. The CEO has asked that she and the board be informed. I hope you all have had a chance to read it to bring balance. In her statement, she states that "Tallaght Hospital accepts the recommendations of the HIQA report in its totality and without exception". She gives a detailed presentation to committee members, which is in your inbox. I call on Deputy Kelleher.

I welcome Dr. Cooper and Mr. Whelan. It is because of tragic consequences that we are here today discussing this report into Tallaght Hospital. We all express our sympathies to the family of Thomas Walsh, and the coroner's comments brought this issue to the fore and moved it up the political agenda.

We have all been around long enough to know that the issues raised in the report have been ongoing at Tallaght Hospital for many years. If we look at the turnover of CEOs and the political commentary from local public representatives, there have always been concerns about the lack of governance at the hospital and its inability to manage its budget effectively. Claims were always made that the budget was never enough and that there were always difficulties in getting proper outcomes in the provision of health care. I assume this report will be implemented in full, and not only by Tallaght Hospital. It should be used as a blueprint for all other acute emergency department hospitals throughout the country. On that point, I would like to ask Dr. Cooper, with regard to the investigation into Tallaght itself - with people waiting on trolleys in the emergency department - and the assessment of the procedures for moving people from the emergency department into the acute unit and further through the hospital, was detailed analysis of the other hospitals also carried out, or was there a cursory look into how they handle their emergency departments? If we are to have a blueprint across the country, we must standardise it to make sure this report is compatible with other hospitals in the State.

Looking at the practices in discharge and admission, we can see it was very hard to get into the hospital, but it was nearly harder to get out of it. That is something we will have to consider in the broader context of discharge policy in our hospitals. It is not just about what happens in Tallaght itself. A person attends the hospital, goes through the process and is admitted to the acute section to receive treatment, and thereafter he or she may need intermediate step-down facilities or long-term care. However, if we look behind that, there are figures that are quite worrying across the broader hospital system. People just cannot get out of hospital once they are in there for a certain period. This primarily affects older people. In that context, does the report make any recommendations with regard to discharge policy, not just in terms of getting people out of the hospital but in terms of ensuring a seamless transfer from hospital to intermediate or long-term care?

On the issue of poor governance, there were quite a number of CEOs over a short period, which should have set alarm bells ringing, if anyone was listening for them, about the lack of clear governance and oversight at Tallaght Hospital and the practices that flow from that. Dr. Cooper was also quite critical of the clinical aspect of governance. She might elaborate on what we can do to deal with that issue. A case in point is that administrators are managing the hospitals but clinical governance is provided by clinicians, so there is always a conflict between the two. Is there any way in which we can develop a system with clear lines of demarcation of responsibility in which administrative and clinical staff try to work together to achieve a common outcome? That is something that causes difficulty in many hospitals throughout the country. It is not just a matter of personality clashes. There are issues of responsibility, with people saying the first and foremost duty of clinicians is care of the patient. However, keeping people in hospital over weekends and longer periods because clinicians are not around to discharge them would not be considered best clinical practice in the first place.

With regard to the report, will there be a system to monitor its implementation? Will there be flying column inspections on an ongoing basis as well as more thorough sessions in which HIQA sits down with the hospital to discuss practicalities?

Dr. Cooper said in her interviews when publishing the report that it was not always a matter of money and investment. However, there is clearly a difficulty with the size of the emergency department in Tallaght Hospital, in view of the population of its catchment area and the profile of patients attending. This goes back to an issue that was raised at a meeting of this committee recently with regard to the relatively small number of GPs in the Tallaght area, which forces people to present at the hospital emergency department. While there are major issues in the hospital, there are also obviously issues with regard to the provision of primary care in Tallaght. I do not know whether that has been referred to in the report, but is it something that causes difficulties in the emergency department? Does Dr. Cooper believe investment is required on the physical side of the hospital?

I have a number of observations. The HSE seems to come out of this with a slight slap on the wrist but no major criticism. Was there a failure of the HSE? Dr. Cooper referred to this in her statement. Clearly, everybody knew about the situation. Local public representatives had been nudging every Government and Minister for years to do something about Tallaght Hospital, and it seems the HSE is incapable of acting on and dealing with the difficulties with corporate governance in the hospital. This is despite the fact that, in terms of service arrangements, the law is on its side in respect of obliging proper service provision.

How much time do I have left, Chairman?

You have used up eight minutes.

It took HIQA the bones of a year to write the report.

I have not pulled up Deputy Kelleher at all.

We will visit that again.

The draft national standards for safer, better health care have been published. Was there any discussion with HIQA in the drafting of these standards in view of the fact that it made a very fine recommendation in the report, or have we put the cart before the horse again?

I extend a warm welcome to Dr. Cooper and Mr. Whelan. This HIQA investigation arose from the tragic death of a male patient at Tallaght Hospital. I join with the Chairman in extending sympathy to his family and all the bereaved.

This is a comprehensive report, on which I commend HIQA. I welcome the recommendations and hope HIQA will press these in a vigorous and proactive way over the period ahead. I believe the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, will have to act on this. There is no choice in this situation; it is an absolute imperative. This does not apply only to Tallaght Hospital. HIQA wisely extended its inquiries to take in all the publicly-funded hospital sites in order to carry out comparisons. The day it chose to carry out this comparison was 24 August.

The deficiencies highlighted in the report cannot be resolved by reorganisation alone. It is my view that moving the deckchairs around, or moving anything around, is not the answer to all of this.

Mindful of what the Chairman said about the missive circulated from the CEO of Tallaght Hospital - I must acknowledge that I had not had sight of that prior to today's meeting - I would like to say-----

For Deputy Ó Caoláin's information, I received the document at 11.55 a.m. and asked the clerk to forward it to members of the committee.

That is fine. It is important to state, not only for the cohort of people who present or may present at Tallaght Hospital now and in the future, that Tallaght Hospital, like all our hospitals, provides excellent care to patients. This deserves to be said on behalf of many who are at the coalface of service provision on our hospital sites and are working under very stretched conditions. However, as in other hospitals, there are serious deficiencies in terms of management, and I also recognise that there is serious under-resourcing, which has resulted in long waiting times and difficulties for patients in accessing care. This has been demonstrated in the HIQA report.

It is shocking that during the period of the HIQA investigation, which was January to August 2011, HIQA found that some patients were waiting in emergency departments for up to 61 hours before being moved on or discharged. This is an incredible period to spend in an emergency department. However, it is equally shocking that over 80% of the admitted patients were accommodated in the corridor adjacent to the emergency department and waited a further 13 hours on average for an inpatient bed. The longest such wait was 140 hours. I plucked this out of the details and statistics cited in the report. It is absolutely horrendous - 61 hours before discharge, and a further 13 hours for an inpatient bed, with 140 hours as the longest wait. As I mentioned earlier, the Minister and the HSE must note that this is not just about Tallaght. I refer to the details in pages 92 and 93 of the survey of all hospital sites dated 24 August 2011. The HSE's own figures show that even in my own area, Cavan General Hospital - the hospital on which I am immediately dependent - had the longest median waiting time of 20 hours and 23 minutes from registration in the emergency department to admission to a ward. This comes as no surprise to those of us living in the area and who have for a long time argued against the whole series of closures of critical service access at hospital sites in the north-east region, placing inordinate burdens on front-line staff in both Cavan and Drogheda. The median time at Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda is 18 hours and 40 minutes, yet Drogheda has also the second longest waiting time recorded at 73 and a half hours and it has one of the lowest percentage of patients admitted within six hours of attendance at the emergency department. These are shocking statistics but these statistics are about people and they could be about any of our loved ones, or ourselves. We need at all times to be very mindful of that fact. These statistics can seem cold but the reality is that these are people. I ask if we can countenance tolerating the impossible time delays that are underscored in the course of the report and I do not believe we can.

I have three questions. The projected health budget cuts amount to up to a further €2 billion by 2014, on top of 2,400 public hospital beds already lost. I do not know if that loss of 2,400 public hospital beds will hold or if there will be more cuts over the next two years. In either event, even if it were to remain at 2,400 lost public hospital beds, does Dr. Cooper believe the recommendations in this report can be fully implemented with that level of bed losses in the system?

My second question is about a key recommendation with regard to unscheduled care. The report states, "The working hours and availability of emergency medicine consultants and senior clinical decision makers should be reviewed and amended in line with the objectives and recommendations of the National Emergency Medicine Programme". We are told that Tallaght Hospital has begun a process to implement this recommendation. Can Dr. Cooper advise us what is the status of this process? How is it being progressed and what is the overall picture? I emphasise that this is not just about Tallaght Hospital. What is HIQA's view of the actions being taken by the Minister, the Department and the HSE in order to address that issue?

The committee should not ignore the fact that there are two critical questions about Tallaght Hospital in particular. These relate to governance. It is clear the hospital has ignored normal rules of tendering, and consultants were hired at a cost of €1.8 million, at a time when the hospital was showing an overrun of €7 million for the hospital site. It seems strange that this very large sum of money was being offered to a firm to carry out a review of the hospital's corporate and clinical governance. It would, I thought, have been self-evident that it was an inappropriate use of money against the backdrop of the reality then presenting and still presenting. It is now known in the past number of days that five senior management staff have been paid almost €750,000 in top-up payments over a period of five years, from 2005 to 2010. Four of the five have since moved on but one person is still in situ. This practice did not die in 2010 because according to the information provided, even though it is not the most shocking of the figures, it is still happening. I ask for some comment on those specific questions.

I welcome Dr. Cooper and Mr. Whelan to the meeting. Like other speakers, I wish to acknowledge that this investigation was carried out on foot of a tragedy and I believe there was also a second case. It should not be the case that these types of investigation only happen as a result of tragic events. I compliment HIQA on the report. While the main focus of the report is on Tallaght Hospital, HIQA has extended the investigation into the operation of other hospitals. While there is certainly an issue that needs to be addressed in the case of Tallaght Hospital, some of the statistics from other hospitals are equally damning with regard to accident and emergency departments. It is a warning to us all that action needs to be taken about those emergency departments. In some cases it is a management issue and in other cases it is a matter of a better use of resources or there is need for capital investment.

One of the most damning figures in the report is the number of self-referrals to accident and emergency departments. This highlights where the failures are in the system. The statistics for Tallaght Hospital show that 69% of presentations at the emergency department are self-referrals. There would be criticism if such a level of self-referrals were related to a small rural hospital. There would be calls for such a hospital to be closed, based on this level of self-referral. However, this level of self-referral is happening in one of the most modern facilities in the country. In my region, in Galway University Hospital, four out of every ten patients attending the hospital are self-referrals. This is a regional hospital where access to GP services is not an issue, as is the case in Tallaght, and where there is a well developed out-of-hours GP service. Mayo General Hospital also has a high level of self-referrals but there are geographical issues to be considered in that case. I ask the delegates to comment on the statistics for the level of self-referrals.

I refer to the level of delayed discharge which is also an interesting statistic. I note the chasm between the level of delayed discharge in Dublin and the rest of the country. Something is clearly very wrong in Dublin compared to the rest of the country. There is a far better developed community hospital structure and step-down and rehabilitation and respite facilities in the rest of the country outside of Dublin and yet there is a move to reduce those facilities. Will the level of delayed discharge in Dublin be replicated in other parts of the country if that additional flexibility and capacity is taken out of the system? This is current Government policy.

I ask the delegates to comment on the recommendation, which in my view is very interesting and which should be developed, on the use of general practitioners in emergency departments. I ask how this arrangement might be implemented. This is not a new idea. Twenty or 30 years ago it was mainly the general practitioners who delivered babies in small community hospitals and the safety standards were very high even then. The situation has developed since then but the skill sets of general practitioners should be available if properly developed.

Another interesting issue, of which I am aware from discussions with the management of Portiuncula Hospital, is the recommendation that national standards be put in place in regard to how data are compiled and published. That particular hospital received a black mark in the report to which the Chairman referred on the basis of there being one outlier patient who apparently spent 137 hours in accident and emergency. This, however, was a statistical error in the compilation of the data which reflected poorly on the hospital. Portiuncula has been struggling as a consequence of the increase in throughput in its emergency department of some 20% following the closure of the emergency department at Roscommon hospital. Nevertheless, it has made significant progress in the second half of last year and the first half of this year in terms of patient throughput. In fact, other hospitals might do well to take a leaf out of its book. At this time, for example, there are only 17 patients - which is, nevertheless, 17 too many - waiting for more than 24 hours in its emergency department, down from 70 this time last year. That is still not good enough and the hospital must continue to strive for the target maximum waiting time of six hours, but there is progress in the right direction.

The larger hospitals, or tertiary hospitals, seem to have greater problems in regard to waiting times in general, even though they are supposed to be dealing with the most ill patients rather than those walking in off the street. We should be seeing far fewer self-referrals in many of these large hospitals. The median time from admission to ward at Galway University Hospital, for instance, was ten and a half hours, with the longest waiting time being 70 hours. At Mayo General Hospital, one patient waited 115 hours from admission to the emergency department to discharge, which is an entirely unacceptable situation. In short, this is not an isolated issue affecting only Tallaght hospital - a large number of hospitals must take on board the recommendations in this report.

All hospitals in the State are obliged to implement the national ambulance patient handover programme which requires that 95% of patients are handed over from the ambulance crew to emergency department staff within 20 minutes. That target suggests an inordinate wait in itself, but one assumes HIQA made the recommendation on foot of the data it received in the course of compiling its report. Will the delegates elaborate on this? How long, on average, are ambulances tied up outside the doors of accident and emergency departments while waiting to hand over patients? Ambulance crews have a vital role to play, particularly in rural areas such as my own. The notion that crews are waiting 20 minutes, never mind any longer, to hand over patient files is unacceptable in this day and age and represents an inefficient usage of a very limited and valuable resource. In many cases, ambulances have travelled for an hour or 90 minutes to reach the hospital and must make the same journey back to base before being available for another job.

I welcome Dr. Cooper and Mr. Whelan and commend them on their work in this area. I take this opportunity to express my condolences to two families which suffered bereavements in March and July 2011, respectively. I received this report very late in the day and have barely had a chance to read it, let alone assimilate its contents.

To be fair, the chief executive officer of Tallaght hospital has been in contact with the committee, the details of which correspondence were forwarded to members.

I am not questioning that. My point is that we had very little time to digest the contents of a document which raises serious concerns regarding patient care and corporate governance at Tallaght hospital. Many of the patients left lying on trolleys in corridors for long periods were, I am sure, in pain. Yet they were left without supervision and without any certainty as to when they would be admitted. There can be little doubt, moreover, that at least some of them were at risk of infection. It is a very serious matter, particularly against a background where many are advocating Tallaght as a suitable location for a national children's hospital. This report begs the question as to whether the hospital is fit for its current purpose in terms of the ability of management, corporate governance and so on. Furthermore, one wonders whether there are consequences for the morale and motivation of front line staff.

Dr. Muiris Houston, medical editor of The Irish Times, has referred to the report as a “damning indictment” of the management of the hospital which raises questions about the individual responsibility of health professionals working there. As I said, patients are at risk of infection while lying on trolleys, yet up to 80% of those requiring admission were waiting more than 13 hours. The report points to a lack of clarity as to who was in charge. The fact that the State’s chief medical officer, Dr. Tony Holohan, has referred the report to both the Medical Council and An Bord Altranais is a clear indication that he has concerns about certain individuals’ professional standards. The Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, himself a medical practitioner with vast experience in the areas we are discussing, described as “completely unacceptable” the absence of clarity as to who was providing medical supervision for patients.

The Chairman is indicating that my time is up, but I was sure I had only started.

The Deputy has been speaking for four minutes. I must allow time for all members who wish to speak.

I will conclude by asking the delegates whether they were satisfied with the level of co-operation they received from the management, staff and service users of Tallaght hospital in compiling their report. Is it their view that the hospital, as it is currently operating, is fit for purpose and, if not, what changes must take place to make it so and how long might such changes be expected to take? Do the delegates have any additional information in regard to infection control at Tallaght hospital and the management of infectious diseases such as TB, including the use of isolation facilities?

I will return to the Deputy, if he has further to add, after other members have made their contributions.

Thank you, Chairman.

I welcome Dr. Cooper and Mr. Whelan. I begin by joining other members in conveying my condolences to the Walsh family on the death of Tom. This is a frank and direct report which, in parts, makes for startling reading. The authors have certainly pulled no punches. Despite the focus being initially very much on one hospital, some of the issues they have highlighted, in these 300 or so pages, raise questions for a range of hospitals throughout the State and are truly frightening. There are many questions to be asked. They are not just to be asked about one hospital; they are to be asked about many hospitals, not only in regard to care but about management and other issues. Dr. Cooper put it clearly at the beginning of the report where reference was made to Tallaght Hospital. She referred to the history of long-standing governance and management issues. She is perfectly correct, because that is how it has been for the best part of the 13 years the hospital has been in situ. To be fair, I am a former member of the Meath Foundation, which is part of Tallaght Hospital. That does not make me an expert on the hospital - far from it - but going back five and six years, one heard things. The first people who spoke about issues in Tallaght Hospital were people who worked there, but nothing was done about the concerns raised.

I have always referred to Tallaght Hospital as the busiest hospital in the country. I believe that cannot be contradicted. It had a particular catchment area, which was never adhered to. One of the strong, final recommendations made in the report relates to that point. In fairness to Dr. Cooper, reference is made to the population growth in areas around Tallaght such as Clondalkin and Lucan. The hospital could not cater for such numbers. However, in addition - as someone said to me - if one lived in the south of Dublin one was aware that the lights were always on in Tallaght Hospital. Deputy Naughten and others referred to the phenomenon of people bypassing everything else and heading for Tallaght Hospital which explains why I describe it as the busiest hospital in the country. I thought that a hospital could turn people away, but it cannot. People were certainly not turned away in Tallaght Hospital. Because of the volume of patients people get stressed about trolleys in hallways and outside the accident and emergency department. There are reasons that happened, which are what we must discover. However, it is the wrong hospital for patients to attend as it is the busiest hospital in the country. In addition, as no one has mentioned so far, the hospital has almost the fewest consultants. Consultants were never replaced and the original number specified when the hospital opened in 1999 was never reached. Why would there not be delays in getting care in Tallaght Hospital given that it never got the personnel and funding that it required? On a lighter note, for such a large hospital it has never been officially opened.

Deputy Maloney should bring his contribution to an end.

I thought the Chairman was referring to the closure of the hospital. It is just a minor thing but it is one factor among others that tells one about the type of governance that was in place for more than ten years that it could not even have a proper opening for the hospital. Not only that; although the hospital has been in existence for 12 years the name of the hospital was only officially agreed a month ago. That tells one all one needs to know about the governance that existed.

The report opens up issues about public hospitals in this country. Many people such as previous Ministers for health and those involved in the Health Service Executive, HSE, and others have many questions to answer. Deputy Ó Caoláin made this point and he is perfectly correct. It is a bit like the previous management and those involved in governance in Tallaght Hospital; they are gone. Tallaght Hospital remains the busiest hospital in this country. Thanks to the report, it is now the safest hospital in this country.

I welcome Dr. Cooper and Mr. Whelan. I express my sympathy to the Walsh family and anyone else who has been hurt by the shortcomings in Tallaght Hospital. I strongly welcome the report and support the remarks made by my colleague, Deputy Maloney. Because both he and I represent people who are served by Tallaght Hospital we have a particular-----

-----loyalty to the hospital and also wish to ensure that it has the best hospital performance and outcomes for people.

When I was canvassing the other day, I spoke to a person who works in Tallaght Hospital who spoke extremely highly of the new CEO and how hands-on she is in terms of being on the floor and seeing how things work. That was a very interesting observation which I have heard from others. I am curious to know to what extent Dr. Cooper thinks the hospital is being turned around in that respect. The impression I am getting as a locally elected representative is a positive one in that regard.

There was a problem with the board because its members came from three different sources and hospital backgrounds. They obviously had great difficulty gelling together as a proper functioning board. To what extent does Dr. Cooper think the issue has now been ironed out and that the board is working effectively?

I wish to refer to an aspect of Deputy Maloney's contribution. To what extent does Dr. Cooper think the hospital has sufficient staff to cater for the needs of its large number of patients? I wish to raise two other points that have also been referred to by other speakers, namely, the huge number of people who self-refer and how we can get away from the situation. Is it a matter of having a greater number of GPs on the ground? On discharge, can anything be done to ensure earlier discharge? Specifically, could St. Brigid's Home in Crooksling be used as a step-down facility? There are question marks over it.

Deputy Naughten referred to ambulance waiting times. My understanding is that in recent years there was a huge ambulance waiting problem in Dublin hospitals. If memory serves me correctly, Beaumont Hospital was the worst. How does Dr. Cooper believe the issue is being dealt with now? Deputy Naughten referred to 20 minutes but my understanding is that in many cases ambulances have had to wait for up to eight hours. That is okay in extreme cases but there were examples of waiting times of such duration. I do not refer to Tallaght Hospital in particular in that regard but more broadly. The fact that the report makes recommendations that are generally applicable is most welcome.

Dr. Tracey Cooper

I thank the committee members.

Two others speakers wish to contribute so I will allow them to speak after Dr. Cooper has responded.

Dr. Tracey Cooper

If I miss anything then members should please let me know. I may cover subsequent questions that other members have consecutively come up with. I will cover those in sequence.

Deputy Kelleher posed a number of questions. He inquired as to whether some of the issues we identified were specific to Tallaght and whether a number of the recommendations we have made are relevant to Tallaght or if they are general. With regard to the recommendations for Tallaght and for hospitals providing similar services, these are not rocket science. These are actions that should be in place for any high performing service that is providing emergency, unscheduled and scheduled care. The recommendations are very much based on best practice - not gold standard, just normal best practice. We are no different from people in many other jurisdictions who have got to the point at which there is no tolerance for patients being kept on trolleys for long periods and patients being kept on trolleys in corridors, which is a slightly different issue. There was a commitment all the way through the system to address that in every way. All the recommendations we made are informed by best practice.

We also established an advisory panel for the investigation to ensure the colleges were influencing the recommendations to ensure the professional leadership in the country was consistent with what we were saying was acceptable. I will talk about the ambulance turnaround, the six-hour standard and some of the basic recommendations around normal system of care issues for patients. These are consistent with the direction of travel and with any other jurisdiction providing good standard unscheduled and scheduled care.

The Chairman asked a question regarding discharge planning and this issue has come up a good deal. I will give an example of why this is such an important issue. This is about actively managing people who must move through different steps of a health system, and in this instance we are talking about a hospital. The effectiveness with which a hospital works is dependent on the community and whether there are alternative access points for patients before they arrive at or are referred to a hospital, through to their admission, if required, or through to their discharge. This is about actively managing people and, as Deputy Ó Caoláin said, these are human beings. Therefore, discharge planning is key because if patients cannot leave a hospital and there is no flow, there will be a backup. Certain signs and symptoms that demonstrate the system is flawed include the challenges in respect of patients being discharged, the long waits for patients in accident and emergency departments and the long waits for ambulances in respect of patients being moved from stretchers to trolleys. We will talk about resources later and I fully accept that sometimes they are an issue, but we could be managing the process of care much better than we are at present.

Does Dr. Cooper believe there is a flow throughout the health system regarding discharge policy? We will examine that issue because, as Deputy Kelleher said, it has been hard to get in and harder to get out. HIQA's report indicates that the national average of 5.9 days was exceeded. Is there joined-up thinking in this area?

Dr. Tracey Cooper

The thinking is not sufficiently joined up. To be fair to the system, significant progress has been made, especially in the past ten months, to try to bring that together. For example, in terms of the special delivery unit, I would point out, and signal this caveat for members, that at the time we commenced the investigation, the census figures showed the position in August of that year but we do not know the position today. We do not know whether it has improved or disimproved across the different hospitals in the country. In terms of managing the patient flow, to which the Chairman referred, there are specific pieces of work on better management of patients with an acute condition and patients brought to an emergency department, and there are also programmes of work on patients requiring surgical care, but it is about joining it up. It is also about preventing patients going into the front end of a hospital who may not need to go there but who go there because there may not be suitable alternatives, but also ensuring patients are actively managed throughout their stay in hospital. That means daily ward rounds by senior clinical decision makers to ensure, in the context of patients being admitted seven days a week, that it does not occur that patients are only discharged five days a week. It is a 24 hour, seven day a week service. We need to examine how we can change practices to address that and ensure a discharge plan is worked out for a petient the day he or she is admitted rather than waiting for a few weeks. Many of these actions are in place or are being put in place in some hospitals, and this is about actively managing people.

Is there such an oversight facility in the health system? It is all fine to have the plan and an aspiration that a patient will be in and out of hospital, but is such an oversight system in place? Has the HSE the capacity and management structure to administer that and deliver on it?

Dr. Tracey Cooper

The most critical point of oversight is the managers and clinicians in hospitals doing what they should be doing. That is the most important aspect. Regardless of the next level of oversight and performance managing that, it is, first and foremost, about people actively designing the system of care for patients within a hospital. That is what makes the difference.

In terms of providing expertise to say this is what good practice looks like for someone requiring a medical, surgical or emergency medical admission, a great deal of work has been put into what are referred to as clinical care programmes, and they are starting slowly to reach fruition.

The final element around the changes is the special delivery unit. When we started the investigation, it was providing support to eight hospitals, of which Tallaght hospital was one, but I understand that is now rare. The issue is also about performance management. We used the word "tolerance" a good deal in this report. It should never have been allowed to get to the state it was at in this hospital, nor should it have been allowed to continue in that state. Many committee members have referred to leadership, management and governance. If there is a difficulty with clinical managers, clinicians and non-clinician managers doing what is required of them within the resources available in a modern day system, what happens to them? That is where the oversight comes in. Once they have managed and provided the services on a day-to-day basis, which is the most important element of safety for patient, what then happens to hold them to account to ensure they are actively managing that?

As members will have noted from the report, the oversight that should have been put in place between the overseer on behalf of the State, which was the HSE, in regard to the service provided by the hospital and it assuring itself those services were of a good quality and safe for patients was not sufficiently effective. There are a number of different causes for that which we may come to as we go through this.

We have made a number of recommendations in the report in regard to discharge planning, similar to the subject of the members' questions, which relate to integration. They are all about starting to plan as soon as the patient is admitted and looking at alternatives such as intermediate care, which was referred to in the Crooksling example.

We talked about clinical aspects and clinical governance elements. This is very much about leadership, clinical leadership and non-clinical leadership. People go to work to do a good job. They do not go to work to do a bad job. Some people find themselves in a system that is flawed and they work within it. The concerning issue we identified in this report is that many staff raised concerns and they were not acted on. It is about ensuring clinicians and managers do the job they are required to do. There is a duty to do that but they must also be supported in the environment to do so. In terms of recommendations around clinical governance, we would say that is a core part of somebody's job and that in terms of the environment, the onus is on the management within the organisation to ensure it pays attention, addresses issues of concern and manages poor performance where that exists.

The monitoring of the implementation of the recommendations was a comment reverberated by members. As Deputy Kelleher said, it took us a while to conclude this investigation. We want to ensure these recommendations move us forward in the heath system, address issues of concern but also progress us to where we should be, which is why there are a number of different levels. I said in my presentation, and it is also stated in the executive summary of the report, there are a number of levels to ensure these recommendations are implemented. In terms of what happens every day, an arrangement is in place in respect of the services provided by the HSE and on behalf of HSE. There is a direct management delivery relationship and also a relationship between the HSE and, for example, a voluntary hospital, as was mentioned. The implementation of the recommendations should form part of the performance managed approach on an operational basis.

The standards for safer better health care, which were developed by the authority through a long consultation process, focus on leadership, governance, management and use of resources, and many elements of quality and safety. Those have now been approved by the Minister. As I alluded to in the presentation, we will now start to provide more support to providers to implement the recommendations but we will commence a substantial monitoring programme across the health service, in particular in hospitals and ambulance services. Part of the assessment will be the implementation of the recommendations.

We have made two other key recommendations that sometimes get lost in the report. We talk about Tallaght hospital, the constitutional nature of Tallaght hospital and the findings that we identified in terms of whether the board membership was fit for purpose for the hospital. What we say in the report is that in keeping with modern corporate governance principles, perhaps not all service providers in receipt of State funds are constituted in such a way that they are able to be or are in compliance with modern corporate governance. We make a recommendation that boards of service providers should consider the recommendations and that the Department of Health should have an oversight approach to see whether any constitutional change is required for them.

The final recommendation of the report relates to a couple of comments made by committee members on the establishment of what we term an oversight committee. We use those words deliberately. I understand the Minister for Health has already commenced this step. The State must oversee the services. The oversight committee has one main purpose from our perspective – no doubt the Minister may add more to it – namely, to ensure the implementation of the system-wide governance recommendations of the report. It should include international expertise and patient representation. We will work with the Minister and officials to ensure it is set up in a way that addresses the recommendation.

Questions were asked about money and investment. It is probably a combination of both in many places. Money is not always the issue. Behaviours and working practice are, however, always the issue. An appendix to the report is a progress report from the hospital which is probably similar to the one the Chairman received today. Much has happened in the hospital since then. My understanding is that it is not as a result of a load of money being thrown at the doors of the hospital, so to speak. This is about doing better with what we have: driving through modernising work practices, holding people to account to do that, supporting people, providing guidance. At the end of the day, all of it is about strong leadership at all the different levels.

Since then, a number of clinicians have been given a voice and leadership within the hospital who are part of the executive team. There may be money issues in some hospitals but it is also about doing what we are currently doing much better. Does that cover most of Deputy Kelleher's questions?

Dr. Tracey Cooper

I hope I have alluded to something mentioned by Deputy Ó Caoláin on the oversight committee and the commitment we want to ensure the recommendations are implemented. We spent a lot of time ensuring we got them right and we linked in with the professional bodies in the colleges to ensure the professional expertise was available.

The Deputy inquired about issues being solved by reorganisation alone. I agree. This is about leadership. Sometimes structure is a hindrance and at other times it helps clarify line management accountability in an organisation. However, if the leadership does not exist, people are not clear about their role, what they are accountable for and what their authority is. It is difficult to gain traction in change or improvement in such circumstances. Before I had the pleasure of coming to this country, I was working with some of the most deeply challenged organisations in another health system. There comes a point where, frankly, people find themselves in jobs they are not equipped to deliver and discharge, despite support and development, and then one needs a change of leadership. We may find ourselves in the coming months and years making those decisions because if there are persistent issues of governance and leadership, sometimes those individuals who find themselves in the wrong place are not the ones to lead it through. On this occasion the board in Tallaght hospital has been replaced. Some of the senior leadership has been replaced and there have been improvements.

A question was asked about the views of the Department and the Health Service Executive, HSE, and addressing emergency departments. We carried out a stocktake on 23 and 24 August. As I alluded to earlier, I do not know what the state of the nation is, to coin a phrase, since then.

Dr. Tracey Cooper

I would like to know the state of the nation against the same data sets. To be fair, I know a lot of supports from the clinical care programmes that have been established in the colleges really try to help hospitals throughout the country. The special delivery unit, SDU, has put a focused support in place but I am not sure of the position at this point.

Again, we use this terminology throughout the report, which goes back to oversight. To me, if something is continually flawed, challenged or not working for patients – I am reminded of Deputy Ó Caoláin's point that they are human beings – then one could ask what people will do about it. I would like to see much stronger performance management and accountability in the system to address it. We make a couple of recommendations in the report, however, that people need support and development on how to operate. Why would we expect people to know who perhaps have not been exposed to such service design and clinical leadership areas? We have made a number of recommendations to provide a development programme for individuals on service design. We have made recommendations on a recognised career progression for clinicians in management and we have made a recommendation that deeply challenged organisations should have support on how to turn themselves around. The focus is on performance management and stronger accountability but we also need to help people get this right.

Deputy Ó Caoláin referred to procurement. I should imagine committee members got the sense if they had time to read the report that this was of serious concern to us. I apologise in advance that we were not and are not in a position to name names in the report. I am sure members understand why we needed to get the report published. However, we refer to two figures in the report - €1.8 million and €1.6 million – the second of which was purely for consultancy services, as the Deputy indicated, on governance, risk assessment, review and recommendations, and €200,000 was for additional professional fees, services that were added to that. When we identified that as being a significant concern, we interrogated it further and, as we alluded to in the report, we found the sum of €1.6 million specifically was allocated to a consultancy. We do not have an issue with the service that was provided. Our concern was with the process the hospital did not go through. There was no tendering exercise and no formal approval by the board, the audit committee or the resource committee of the board. It was unclear who signed off and when and what authority they had to do so. There was no agreement or negotiation on what it would cost before the consultants set foot in the hospital. That is our understanding. That is a total breach of public procurement. As we cover further in the report, we were not satisfied the necessary controls were in place at all the various levels of governance to satisfy the board, most importantly, and ultimately that it was in accordance and compliance with the rules of the State on financial management.

Given that it has occurred, and to follow up on Deputy Ó Caoláin's point and the point Dr. Cooper made on procurement and consultancy - both are parallel and running together - are we confident we will eliminate such practice in the future and that it will not happen again in other settings?

Dr. Tracey Cooper

I will come back to that because it relates to the second part of what I wish to say. It is very important. When we identified this breach and we were in discussions with Tallaght Hospital, at the same time, because there is a similar principle which is about absence governance, an issue arose relating to top-up payments. We have not and will not name names in this regard but they included a top-up payment of more than €150,000 for an individual for a role. In terms of that decision-making process and notwithstanding the lack of clarity from the Department of Finance and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, it was unclear how those decisions were made. Those two points and the other concerns about the absence of effective controls resulted in our meeting twice with the Comptroller and Auditor General and referring them to him. We are not forensic accountants, nor do we profess to be, and we will leave it to the Comptroller and Auditor General to undertake whatever investigations are necessary.

Is it not bizarre that Dr. Cooper can say to this committee that HIQA does not know how that decision was made? Someone made the decision to grant and allocate a top-up payment for a role that should be a functionary duty of somebody.

Dr. Tracey Cooper

Outside of any process.

Dr. Tracey Cooper

There is no remuneration committee for the board. Some people may be more familiar than others with the fact that many organisations that have boards have a remuneration and nominations committee that examines individual salaries for senior people but as we all know we were living then with the challenges of austerity in the public service and in people's personal lives. There are rules, whether we like them or not, and therefore we were not clear on the way those decisions were made or the governance structure that made them. This is about a lack of controls such that we were not convinced when we were doing the investigation that the controls were in place to stop it happening again.

Is it the case that the Comptroller and Auditor General is now carrying on where the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, left off?

Dr. Tracey Cooper

To be honest, I have not had any further conversations with them. We had detailed, constructive meetings with them. I understand the new leadership in Tallaght self-reported to the Comptroller and Auditor General on the €1.6 million around the same time. Also, it has come into the public domain in recent days from the hospital that a parallel payroll was in place and that there were concerns about payments. It is my understanding that the new leadership of the hospital has been working closely and constructively with the Comptroller and Auditor General. It also triggered its own review of what happened in regard to the consultancy payments. The previous board also undertook an internal review when it was made aware of the €1.6 million.

On the Chairman's question, my understanding from the information we have received from the hospital, which we have not validated but have no reason to disbelieve, is that it has honed in strongly on the delegation of decision making, the controls in place around public procurement and various policies and procedures it has put in place since then. As to whether it could happen in any other hospital, I simply do not know.

Has Dr. Cooper asked that of the Health Service Executive?

Dr. Tracey Cooper

We have not, no.

On the €150,000, is it correct that the sum total was over €700,000 for five people for approximately five years?

Dr. Tracey Cooper

The only information we had was on a couple of people, one of whom had more than €150,000. The information came from the hospital the day the report was published. In terms of the totality of that €750,000, therefore, we were not made aware of that during the investigation. That was a further concern. It does not change the fact that we would look to the Comptroller and Auditor General to look into this issue.

We have made a number of recommendations, one of which is basic, that is, that every service provider in receipt of State funds be compliant with the Department of Finance and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. We also recommend that in respect of every health service and social care provider, many of which receive significant amounts of State funding. We would say that many of these recommendations apply to that sector. We have also recommended that they must be compliant with the code of practice for the governance of State bodies with which Tallaght Hospital should have been compliant. We have also said that service providers in receipt of State funds should also come under the auspices of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Does that cover Deputy Ó Caoláin's point?

Dr. Cooper gave the reply to the point that reorganisation will not be enough and she spoke about leadership but the core of what I was coming to was the fact that we have 2,400 closed public hospital beds and I am very concerned that we will not be able to do all that Dr. Cooper has recommended in the context of that as a given or a continuing situation.

Dr. Tracey Cooper

It will be a significant challenge. However, the majority of recommendations we have made are about practices, behaviours and the way business is done. By business I mean high quality, safe care for people in a business-like approach. The main elements we mention could allude potentially to resources in that we made clear recommendations on discharge planning, access to active rehabilitation, therapy access and intermediate care. I strongly believe, however, that a huge number of improvements could be made, although not everywhere. Some improvements are already in train but improvements could be made in a considerable number of hospitals across the country by doing what we currently do significantly better in terms of the system and the organisation of care. That is not just in the hospital; it is about ensuring that the health system of the community adds all of this up to examine how it can be modernised. We spoke about access to primary care through discharge. I am not saying it will be easy in any way. I also do not believe we have sufficient numbers of strong leaders in the system in those jobs to get us through that at local level, which will have to be addressed, but just because the money is not available does not mean we cannot commence a programme of significant improvements. There are many efficiencies and improvements and quality to be shaken out, so to speak, in terms of the system before we even start talking about money.

Deputy Naughten mentioned self-referral, and we spoke about signs and symptoms of a system. The 69% figure is interesting. It conjures up the question as to what the primary care service is like in the area. I will make a number of points in that regard. As I am sure members are aware, the out of hours primary care service began on 1 November 2011 in the Tallaght area. I am not sure what impact that has had on performance since then but 69% is a high figure. If some of the questions posed as a result of the investigation were unpicked and a root cause analysis of it were done, it would not be necessarily about access to primary care but about the demographics in the area and people's comfort in going to an emergency department rather than going to a general practitioner. Another factor could be what people have to pay when they go to a GP or an emergency department. Some further analysis of that must be done, particularly in respect of some areas. I do not know the answer to the question about self-referral. I would hope that that figure, whether it is right or wrong, would have reduced. It is high compared to many parts of the country but it is also quite high in many areas.

I have dealt with the delayed discharge points. The Deputy also asked a question on GPs and emergency departments. Some areas have begun to look at GPs as part of the emergency department, which relates to the Deputy's point about the 69% self-referral. Many patients who attend an emergency department for whatever reason could be safely and adequately treated by a GP. That would be a different route to going to an emergency department. That is consistent with the emergency care programme and is something we need to consider. We have had similar conversations with people in different areas on GP access. It is not just about out of hours access but also about the presence of a GP within the department.

On the emergency department data, I mentioned earlier that this was a snapshot taken in August. The position may have improved or disimproved in different areas. I was exceptionally concerned that we had an emergency department task force report in 2007 and this was August 2011. Out of the 33 hospitals, nine could not provide us with the data, excepting the electronic data. We pushed back to get the manual data and not one hospital could provide every single piece of that information, some of which they may have thought was more relevant than others. If we are not measuring it, how on earth are we managing it? Notwithstanding the varying waiting times, we have been like that for four years.

I accept the argument about diminishing funding and resources but it is not an excuse not to drive improvements in the way we manage this system of care. We wrote to the Secretary General of the Department and the chief executive of the Health Service Executive, HSE, stating we had serious concerns and would like the special delivery unit to examine this area, not just on waiting times but also as a management issue.

A key performance measure of the productivity and efficiency of process is the patient flow, which relates to the question about ambulance patient hand over time. That target is, in fact, in the emergency medicine programme which I understand will be published and launched in the next several weeks. This is about patients in the community who cannot have an ambulance get to them, patients waiting on a stretcher to get onto a hospital trolley, and overcrowding in emergency departments. The turnaround time for an ambulance is a sign and symptom of that. It is fundamental, as we have recommended, that we pull together several indicators across the patient journey in order that we can see whether it is demonstrating effectiveness.

Did any statistics come to HIQA's attention that made it make that recommendation?

Dr. Tracey Cooper

It is not something that is measured in hospitals in Ireland generally. However, through interviews, discussions with patient groups and emergency department meetings, it was apparent there was a concern about excessive hand over periods for ambulances. The colleges were involved through an advisory panel which was very helpful to us. We are not creating a new indicator. It is in the programme and it is about actively managing the steps of the process to see if they are efficient.

Deputy Keating asked if we got full co-operation from Tallaght Hospital. I would say we had some interesting relationships with the hospital when we first began the investigation. From the end of August to the beginning of September, there were new individuals in posts and we have had full co-operation from the hospital since then. I am not saying the whole hospital was not co-operating but we had some challenges in the early period of the relationship.

I will take it that Dr. Cooper's answer is "No".

Dr. Tracey Cooper

Since August-September we have had full co-operation. As far as the question of the hospital being fit for purpose is concerned, it will be noted from our presentation and the report that the board changed in November. The archbishop and the Minister made the decision through a by-law in the hospital's charter to dissolve the previous board and create an interim one of nine non-executive directors and executive directors. They were appointed with the competencies appropriate for board members that we recommended. We recommended that there is a need to move to a substantive board, which should happen in the coming months.

We also made the point that the charter is not in keeping with modern corporate governance. However, that did not preclude the board from behaving in a way that was conducive to corporate governance. Attempts were made to improve it. They simply failed.

Now it is a different hospital. I am not criticising the people involved of old. Some people found themselves in difficult jobs which were perhaps not the jobs for them. There is a new board that is really driving improvements in governance. There is a very competent acting chair of that board and a competent chief executive and senior management team in place. It is very much on a steady trajectory with people who are very open-minded and who walk the floors, as mentioned earlier. I would be very comfortable that it is well on the way up. However, it has a long way to go. It is about leadership.

When we did the unannounced inspection on 24 August, we identified concerns around isolation facilities at the hospital. We brought this to the hospital's attention. The hospital then examined policies and procedures for dealing with patients with potential infectious diseases and reorganising some elements of the emergency department to address that. Insufficient precautions were in place to cater for such patients.

I have answered Deputy Dowds's question about leadership and governance. When I spoke about co-operation, I was referring to the business elements of the two organisations. Every step of this way, we found staff who are extremely committed. They need to be given that recognition.

We did not do a profile of the baseline number of staff required to carry out various services. We did identify there was no definition of exactly the services that should be provided or specificity in the contract arrangements which clarified what the HSE expected of the hospital. We cannot think of one part of the health system without thinking about its relationships with its neighbouring services. Tallaght is one of seven large hospitals in Dublin providing a 24-hour, seven day a week emergency department and many tertiary services. There is no plan in the Dublin area that states what each hospital is doing and how it should be resourced or takes into account changes in demographics.

Accordingly, we have made several recommendations that there needs to be a health service plan for Dublin which is informed on population needs and policy direction. Most important, we have resourced hospitals on historical budget allocations, yet there have been many changes in how we provide services and their configuration. We believe the Department of Health should begin a resource allocation review that examines the services required in an area, how they are allocated and how variations in services are agreed. For example, in Tallaght there was much scope creep in the services. There were well-intentioned actions on the part of a consultant. When the service stopped in another hospital, a consultant in Tallaght took it on. However, there was no process around it and it meant more blood tests, X-rays and inpatient beds were needed, but no one understood it until after the event. That is not the way to run a hospital.

May I just intervene briefly? Part of the reason I asked that question was that I heard, from talking to a GP I know well in Clondalkin, there were several turf wars going on between St. James's Hospital and Tallaght Hospital. That would have a bearing on how many staff were required. There was an attempt to steer, for example, all of the Clondalkin patients in the direct of Tallaght and that would have a bearing on how many staff would be required.

On the second point, I am not sure whether there was also a sense that perhaps they did not have as good a relationship with the HSE as some other hospitals and, therefore, were not getting as much.

Dr. Tracey Cooper

I agree with both points. The first one is similar to what I call the 'service creep', with good relationships between individual consultants across different hospitals. We use the example of haematology services where no doubt well-intentioned persons expanded a service over time which was not resourced. One matter on which the HSE is quite strict in governing its service agreement is that if it is not identified at a high level in what it is paying one, one must pay oneself if there is an expansion of services.

The second point is about leadership. There are the challenges of ongoing turnover of chief executives. I am not saying that these individuals were responsible for this in any way, but there is something about meeting people at eye level. Among one's peers as chief executive, one is providing a health service in Dublin. Some of those challenges, because of the turnover of leadership, resulted in some of the examples to which the Deputy referred. I understand a priority for the current chief executive and the chair has been to recalibrate those relationships. I believe that covers Deputy Dowd's questions.

I thank Tracey and Marty. I hope they do not mind me calling them by their first names because we have met a number of times. I nearly know them as well as I know myself.

Deputy Ó Caoláin kindly handed me the documents to read. I had not read them because I have not yet downloaded them. I have a problem upstairs with the computer but that is another day's work. However, I flicked through the executive summary, which is always helpful.

The four opening lines in the conclusion say it all. They refer to "longstanding challenges in the leadership, governance, performance and management of the Hospital which were manifest in the persistent, and generally accepted, tolerance of a wholly unacceptable practice of patients lying on trolleys in corridors". In the past three weeks I experienced accident and emergency with family members, in the children's hospital and in one of the main national hospitals. I am always overwhelmed by the response of the staff, down to those who come in during the night to clean. There are exceptional staff working in the hospitals, particularly in accident and emergency because they must deal with so much of everything that comes in. They are exceptional staff and therefore we should support them in every way we can.

In reading the executive summary, there are a few matters that jump off the page. It is, as stated here, about strong leadership. If one does not have strong leadership and staff who can manage, and staff who are trained, one is constantly sliding down the slippery slope. One needs managers and staff who will act on complaints and listen to the concerns not only of the patients but also of the staff. One must bear in mind that the staff in the hospital, down to the cleaning staff, are the eyes and ears on the floor of every ward and corridor. We should not miss what they are saying because they see it on a daily basis. It is about good housekeeping but it is also about morale and staffing in the hospital. That is what is failing at present. There is not good strong morale among staff. I was pleased to note that one of the recommendations on executive management was about training and bringing staff to a standard where they are capable of doing their job. For far too long in the HSE staff were put on tiers and thrown up into the next tier merely for the sake of it, and without any of the qualifications that they should have, not only in terms of qualifications but in being able to deal with it as an individual. I would hope that the witnesses might be able to give us some figures. It is stated that training for the clinical directors team through the RCPI was commenced at Tallaght Hospital. Have they any idea what kind of staff are being trained?

I want to reflect on what Deputy Ó Caoláin stated about beds. Having been in an accident and emergency unit last week, I was told on three occasions they were waiting for a bed for my family member. Part of the problem, as we all know, is a shortage of beds. Another part is the management of beds on the wards. There is a need to look at how they are managed and put into service. That has a significant bearing on why patients spend so long on the floor in accident and emergency. That needs to be looked at.

I appreciate Tracey's honesty and openness. I agree with Deputy Ó Caoláin. We do not agree on many matters because we are in different parties but I agree with him that the management of beds within hospitals is a major factor in why patients spend hours upon hours on trolleys. My family member got a bed after 12 hours, which was quite acceptable given that some had to wait much longer. We need strong management that listens to the people but, above all, that listens to those who work in the hospital. Many who work in the hospital feel that they are raising matters and are not being heard. If we listened more to what they were saying, perhaps we would have a better health service all round. I thank Tracey and Marty.

I thank both Tracey and Marty for attending. The question I want to ask gives truth to the fact that they conducted a thorough investigation and provided incredible recommendations. Based on their enthusiasm when they stated that the new management structure in Tallaght would have their full confidence in its ability to make those recommendations a reality, my concern is no longer about Tallaght. My concern relates to their statement that there was a service level agreement between Tallaght, as a service provider, and those which were signing the cheque, in this case the HSE on behalf of the State. There seems to be no governance whatsoever or a complete breakdown in communication between those who were signing the cheque and those who were delivering the service. At what stage during their investigations did they uncover any reviews of the services that were being provided by the HSE? How many reviews were there? Was there a service plan and did anybody bother reviewing it on a monthly or quarterly basis? How was it managed? By whom was it managed?

One of the two most incredible points they made today, given that it is 2012, is that there were seven service providers in the country from which they could not get statistical information by email. That is mind-blowing. The second, scary, point is that they stated there needs to be a health service plan for Dublin. Here we are spending €21 billion nationally on health services in the country, of which Dublin is the biggest population area, and we do not have a health service plan for Dublin. It is incredible. Based on the deficiencies of which they have learned and knowing that matters have changed since they started the report, is Dr. Cooper satisfied that the new clinical leads and programmes that are directed and headed-up by eminent persons, the SDU and the different programmes that have been put in place in the past year are even in some way addressing the governance issues and the blockages which seem to exist at every level in the health service? Or is it the case that there are still identifiable hospitals and if so, does that prompt her to ask whether HIQA should be doing more investigations? Are there other identifiable services that have major leadership credibility issues that need to be addressed by those clinical programme leads or the SDU?

I thank Dr. Cooper for her report and contribution here today. My apologies for having to leave for a vote in the Seanad. There are three matters on which I want to touch, and which I do not think were raised already.

In hospitals where there is a board of management the board has independence in the scale of pay it can give to management whereas the HSE hospital managers are tied to set grades. Where staff have moved from the HSE into the voluntary sector, salaries have almost doubled. I have no difficulty with salaries doubling. It is a huge responsibility for anybody managing a hospital to take on board. Even though their funding largely comes from the public finances, voluntary hospitals seem to enjoy considerable independence on pay rates at management level. Given that salaries in the HSE are tied to scales, how do we stop the movement of good people out of that organisation?

The report comprehensively addressed the issues of patient waiting times for medical consultants and delayed release from hospitals. A report produced in 2003 recommended that 3,600 consultants be in place by 2012. There are at present 2,500, which means we are 1,100 short of the target. To what extent is that shortage contributing to the inefficiencies within the service? I recognise that in a context of considerable financial pressures on the health services it is not possible to appoint 1,200 consultants in the morning but how can we achieve best value for money and provide the best possible service?

Approximately 30% of admissions in emergency departments are directly related to excessive alcohol consumption. I know of an individual who presented to a GP surgery at 9 p.m. last Friday but before he even sat down he was told by a nurse that he should have gone to the emergency department instead. This individual did not have to go to the emergency department in the end because the doctor saw him. Why have we created a culture in which GPs cover themselves by referring a large proportion of their patients to emergency departments? I wonder if referral rates are overly high and, if so, how we can deal with the issue. Do we need to be more proactive as regards installing basic equipment in GP practices, particularly where they are open after 6 p.m., so that many of the cases presenting to emergency departments can be treated in primary care units?

Dr. Tracey Cooper

Deputy Catherine Byrne asked a specific question on training but I am afraid I am not familiar on the progress made in this regard. I understand the Deputy was referring to an e-mail which was sent earlier by the chief executive. Significant assistance is provided by the clinical care programmes, and the acute medicine programme in particular, and I assume that is how the training is being supplied. I have no reason to believe the HSE is not training because its recognises the need for upskilling and modernisation.

Deputy Regina Doherty asked about HSE oversight. Under the service arrangements which have operated for many years, the HSE meets the hospital on a monthly basis. The quality and safety of the service did not appear on that agenda until August 2011, at which point a member of the HSE's quality and safety directorate became party to those regular meetings. Conversations were focused on access and timeliness, HealthStat and funding. Since August the performance and service review meetings also included quality and safety elements and patient outcomes. The HSE was established in 2004 and the service arrangement was agreed in 2010. I understand the HSE faced significant challenges with all the voluntary hospitals in getting them to sign up to a service agreement. The majority of voluntary hospitals come under section 38 of the Health Act 2007, which provides that they are contracted to the HSE on behalf of the State. Activities were already in place but they were not sufficiently effective in dealing with persistent poor performance. The hospital has overspent its budgets over many years. Challenges have also arisen in the area of governance and a number of investigations over several years. Our concern was to find out the point at which the HSE called a halt in order to do something more substantive.

I will not get into the details of the matter but the service arrangement can be broken into two parts. The first part deals with the governance of the arrangements. This part is quite detailed and sets out a number of enforcement activities, from withholding money to termination of contracts. I understand that has never happened, however. The only issue raised in respect of money was the €1.8 million, and the HSE quite rightly told the hospital that it was not in the service arrangement and would have to be found elsewhere because it was not going to be paid out of public funds. This was the kind of dialogue that took place but it is insufficient for the regulator to jump up and down for a while over quality and safety concerns when it was dealing with a hospital that was facing persistent challenges.

We need to think about how that plays across other hospitals because one of the key issues for the HSE is the rigour with which it can hold the service provider to account. Although the 2007 Act does not give it the broadest of powers in contractor-commissioner arrangements, the HSE did not make optimal use of what was available. There were regular performance reviews but insufficient action was taken in response to the ongoing nature of poor performance at the hospital.

Where did public accountability come into it?

Dr. Tracey Cooper

It was at the heart of it. We are discussing Tallaght hospital but perhaps we could make similar points about a number of hospitals. Approximately €176 million of taxpayer's money is spent to provide extensive services. When there are challenges in the services, the budget and the governance, somebody, somewhere has to do something about it. Public accountability for effectively and safely discharging public funds is one issue. Oversight in the broadest sense could include a political examination at committee level into how the commissioner or contractor, in this case the HSE, oversees expenditure on behalf of the State and perhaps recommendations about the role of the Comptroller and Auditor General. We have not sufficiently or effectively held to account the providers which receive lots of money and which could offer excellent services in return.

The report makes two very important recommendations. The first is that all chairpersons of service providers receiving State funds should report to the future director general of the HSE for performance and effectiveness of governance and management. Similarly, all chief executives of those providers should report to their boards in the first instance and to a national director on issues of performance and delivery.

In regard to accountability and oversight arrangements, page 5 of the report states that the HSE's relationship with the hospital was not sufficiently effective. The report states: "it did not appear to the Authority that there was reconciliation between the funds available and the budgetary overspend". In regard to Deputy Regina Doherty's comments, I find it most alarming that it also states: "There was no evidence available to the Authority to demonstrate a clear understanding of the collective roles and responsibilities of each statutory and non-statutory hospital's contribution to the overall delivery of the HSE's Dublin Mid-Leinster service plan".

Dr. Tracey Cooper

The report is very strong on this. As Deputy Byrne mentioned, the first four lines of the concluding remarks about leadership, governance and management manifested itself in patients on trolleys in corridors for long periods of time and the oversight system failed to stop this from happening. What will be key, and a number of speakers alluded to it, is the recommendation for the Minister and the oversight committee, because there must be leadership. The report is bigger than HIQA and the service providers; it is about how the State governs the health services it provides. We recommend an oversight committee to ensure governance recommendations are implemented so the question never needs to be asked again.

If I am wrong correct me, but does this in itself suggest we have so many tiers of bureaucracy in our health system that it creates an ability to pass the buck? I take the point made on an oversight committee and I read the Minister's comments and we also have the national standards for safer better health care. Is it not about time that those responsible own up and state public accountability demands and warrants they are in charge and they take responsibility, act and make decisions?

Dr. Tracey Cooper

I fully agree. We are speaking about Tallaght.

I am speaking broadly.

Dr. Tracey Cooper

Through this investigation into one hospital one sees a slice of how we do our business with public accountability and the quality of safety in the various levels of the health service. For some reason the State has difficulty in addressing poor performance and holding people to account for poor performance. We are very weak on performance management. I strongly agree with the Chairman. One of the reasons we went significantly further than merely stating this is about Tallaght Hospital and its relationship with the HSE is that the situation could be replicated. This is about stopping the intolerable acceptance of patients lying on trolleys in corridors for long periods. It is about how to run a hospital and how to govern a health system. I have very strong views on this. We must stop this difficulty we have with having the required conversation when there is persistent poor performance and patients are on trolleys in corridors.

It is not all about money.

Dr. Tracey Cooper

It is not all about money. Sometimes money is an issue, but I know through the improvements made in this hospital and my previous experience in reforming emergency care we can do much better. However, people must have the necessary skills and must want to do it. This support, performance management and, most importantly, public accountability must be in place and people must ask the questions to which they do not want to hear the answers.

To answer Deputy Doherty, we spent much time discussing oversight. She asked about clinical leadership progress in the special delivery unit. It has taken a little time for the clinical programmes to reach the point at which they are now. I believe they represent an opportunity to make a substantial improvement in articulating clearly what is required with regard to various elements of the health system. The specially delivery unit is injecting urgency and accountability. It is changing the Friday afternoon attitude of waiting until Monday to deal with patients queueing up to get into departments over the weekend. This urgency and ethos of direct delivery is being injected by the special delivery unit. It is expanding throughout all hospitals and involves people with experience of this in other jurisdictions.

We recommend that while this is fine and going in the right direction there must be a national linked programme. Hospital porters, nurses or CEOs do not want a range of activities coming to them vertically; they want one quality improvement plan for the hospital. It is all going in the right direction and the programmes contain some excellent content. My caveat is that the step to prevent harm to patients is the interface between patient and professional and those who manage it. This is where we must invest. National programmes will really help drive good practice but it is the people in the hospitals who will make the difference. We must invest more in better governance and management to get it right.

Senator Burke spoke about the boards, their constituent aspects and pay scales. I mentioned section 38 of the Health Act. Providers covered by sections 38 and 39 of the Act are required to remunerate in accordance with national pay scales. An area about which we had concerns is ensuring compliance with national directives from the Department of Finance and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and we have made a recommendation on this. Some providers may provide different types of services involving different routes of funds, income and expenditure which need to be governed effectively, but we are discussing equity and calibrating pay scales. My understanding, and I am pleased to be corrected, is this should be in accordance with the national directives for section 38 providers.

The problem is HSE staff who should be on the higher scale end up on the lower scale because the position is not on the appropriate scale. It is not a case of voluntary hospitals paying over the top. As a result the HSE is losing people.

Dr. Tracey Cooper

I am not familiar with whether this is an issue but clearly the Senator has come across it.

The Senator spoke about shortages of funding and consultants. We have not done any work on the state of the nation in this regard. The specialty spread is not clear with regard to whether we are short in certain areas and have more than we need in other areas. The Senator may be right but I am not close enough to comment directly on it. Health reform is not only about doctors providing care; it is also about developing practitioners in an appropriately governed system with appropriate clinical guidelines, supervision and audit. We speak about centres which could potentially be nurse-led. We made previous recommendations on nurse practitioners doing colonoscopies with appropriate clinical governance and I understand this is part of the colorectal cancer screening programme. We need the right number of consultants in the right specialty fields. In addition to this we need to diversify in an appropriate quality-driven and safe way, and where it is appropriate to do so expand the roles of other practitioners so they can get involved in treating patients.

The role of primary care is pivotal. We cannot reform emergency care in a hospital. It must be about the role of primary care and we have not discussed this enough. Some primary care practitioners are excellent and directly involved and others are not. I agree with the Senator that the role of primary care in the system of providing good, safe care for patients requiring acute admission must be part of the discussion.

I had a question on primary care but it has been answered.

I have a question that could be answered by a single word. It is in regard to HIQA's proactive follow-on to the recommendations. It is not enough to pass on the report and place a blind trust in the system. Can Dr. Cooper assure us that HIQA will have an ongoing and active interest in the implementation of the report's recommendations?

Dr. Tracey Cooper

Absolutely. This is about health reform and we will not be moving away from that.

On my behalf and that of the committee I thank Dr. Cooper and Mr. Whelan for attending today. Patient safety in not only Tallaght Hospital but all hospitals is of paramount importance. We have underlined that again as part of our deliberations today. Patients, regardless of who they are or from where they come, deserve a health system under which they can be confident they will receive high-quality health care in a safe environment and in which there is accountability and delivery of a continuum of care. Dr. Cooper is right in saying this is about reform, ongoing probity and ensuring there is accountability. I very much welcome her last comment that there will be a follow-up on this and that this will not be the end of a process, that it will be a juncture and that there will be a continuation. I very much hope that it will be part of an ongoing process.

I thank both witnesses for attending. I also thank the members for being here and members of the media for staying with us. I thank members of the staff and the clerk for their work today.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.55 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 24 May 2012.
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