I welcome the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald; Mr. Jim Breslin, Secretary General of the Department; and Mr. Micheal O'Corcora, also from the Department. The Minister seems to be here more often than she is not and I thank her for being here this morning. As members are aware, this is our quarterly meeting which has been reconvened following a postponement. I invite the Minister to make her opening statement.
Update on Children and Youth Issues: Discussion with Minister for Children and Youth Affairs
Today's meeting provides an opportunity to reflect on my work as Minister for Children and Youth Affairs since our last regular meeting in February. As the Chairman stated, since then I have met the committee on two occasions to deal specifically with the 2012 Estimates and the Report of the Independent Child Death Review Group to which the committee devoted an entire meeting on the day after its publication.
I wish to express my sincere gratitude to the members of the committee for the very comprehensive work carried out in holding hearings and considering the heads of the Children First Bill. I received its very lengthy and detailed report last week and the Department and I are reviewing it ahead of preparation of the full Bill and a regulatory impact assessment to be published later this year.
I would like to deal with the question of the referendum on child protection. Officials in the Department are continuing a substantial engagement with the Attorney General and her officials to progress the Government's commitment to hold a constitutional amendment on children. Contact in this regard is ongoing and, as part of the normal process, will involve consultations across the relevant Departments in advance of the presentation of a proposed wording to the Government for consideration. To ensure the public is fully informed of the nature of the proposal and the consequences of approving it, the proposed amending legislation in the area of adoption will be published along with the wording of the amendment. Publication of the referendum Bill will have regard to the need to allow an appropriate period of time for the proposal to be fully debated and considered by the public. As the committee is aware, I have already undertaken some informal consultations and, as I told Deputies Ó Caoláin and McConalogue in the House earlier this week, I intend to continue to consult with Opposition spokespersons as the preparations which are under way progress.
We have commenced work on a new children's and young people's framework overall statement of policy. The lives of Irish children and young people have changed significantly over the past decade. The framework will reflect these changes and seek to respond to the cutting-edge issues affecting Irish childhood and youth, including economic pressures such as child poverty and youth unemployment, health problems such as the rise in childhood obesity and cultural influences such as the impact of new technologies, media and consumerism. The difficulties, in terms of alcohol and drug abuse by young people, were showcased last weekend. The framework will provide an important opportunity for a whole-of-government approach to these issues, with the ultimate goal of improving the quality of life of and opportunities for Irish children and young people.
Deputies will be interested to note that during the period allowed for on-line consultation more than 1,000 submissions were received, which indicates that a striking number of people have an interest in this issue. My Department will analyse the submissions which will form a key part of the development of the strategy. It has also done work directly with children. Some 68,000 children in schools countrywide responded to the consultation. This is probably the first of its kind in terms of the comprehensive number of young people who have been asked what they consider to be the key issues.
The high level children and young people's framework will also facilitate the preparation of a number of more detailed policies and strategies later this year and into next year, including Ireland's first ever national early years strategy which will be developed during 2012. This strategy is innovative in its dynamic and will be important in the context of the future development of the early years sector. It is aimed at improving their lives from birth to age six years, while harnessing the often understated potential which investment and intervention in early years offer to the future economic and social development of the State. The committee might at some point consider the increasing evidence internationally of the economic benefits of quality early childhood care and investment. There are many solid studies emerging worldwide of the economic benefits for a country where it provides for quality early intervention for young people.
Last week I met the Governor of Washington, which state has undertaken an examination of the impact of early years provision, which has shown that it is resulting, for example, in fewer young people in detention and residential care and that such investment is really worthwhile. We need to examine the issue in the Irish context. This will be helped by the studies emerging from the early years intervention projects which were supported by Atlantic Philanthropies. While we will not be able to continue at the same level of the particular pilot projects, there are key lessons which will be taken on board. Research from the various projects will offer us a blueprint of how to progress the development of services for young people.
Last month I hosted the first meeting of the new expert advisory group which I established to advise on the preparation of the strategy. The group comprises external experts from a range of specialties, including paediatrics, early childhood care and education, child protection and public health nursing, and is chaired by Dr. Eilis Hennessy of UCD. It will continue its work in the next few months and I hope to receive a full report from it towards the end of this year or early next year.
Members will recall that at the end of June we had a meeting to deal specifically with the report of the child death review group. As I announced at that meeting, I am, following consultations with the Taoiseach, putting in place an implementation process for the Gibbons-Shannon recommendations, many of which echo recommendations made in previous reports and actions are under way to implement them as part of the reform programme under way in children and family services. Where recommendations give rise to a need for new actions, my Department will incorporate them within the implementation process. My Department is preparing a detailed project implementation plan for children's services reform. Linked with this, it is preparing a single database of various report recommendations in recent years to streamline reporting to me on these matters. This is essential at this point, given the number of reports in hand. Reporting on the Gibbons-Shannon recommendations will form part of this streamlined reporting mechanism. I will bring regular progress reports on the reform programme to the Government, the committee and both Houses.
I advise the committee that later this month I will publish new HIQA standards on child protection. I compliment HIQA on its work in this regard. It is critical that we have standards for the protection and welfare of children. We certainly need to have a standards-led approach at this stage. This is central to enforcing a new culture of quality, effectiveness and accountability in child protection services. In this regard, a number of reports have identified unevenness in the impact of the various child agencies. We can no longer tolerate past failings. We must ensure we provide the best possible service we can for young people who come into the care of the State. The HIQA standards on child protection will play an important part in ensuring we have that quality approach. I will be happy to appear before the committee again at a later point to discuss the standards. Members might also be interested in hearing from HIQA representatives on them at that time.
The commitment to establish the new child and family support agency is at the heart of the Government's reform of child and family services. The establishment of a single agency, underpinned by legislation and incorporating key children and family services, will provide a focus for the major reforms under way. This reform programme contains a number of critical elements, the first of which is the continued and urgent implementation of a comprehensive change programme to improve the quality and consistency of child welfare and protection services. This will not be done overnight. As previously stated in the Dáil and at the committee, we face huge challenges in this area. Also included is the introduction of legislation to place Children First on a statutory basis and the establishment for the first time of a dedicated budget for children and family services, providing for transparency and accountability for the use of resources to meet national priorities. I have previously indicated that resources are given to a variety of statutory and voluntary organisations. As such, where key priorities are identified, we must ensure these resources are used to meet them. Also part of the reform programme are the transition of existing HSE child protection and welfare services into the new agency and the merger of the existing Family Support Agency with the child and family support agency. Many Members attended the launch yesterday by the Family Support Agency of the SPEAK report which outlines the work being done in communities. I see family support and child protection as being two sides of the same coin. We also need to look at further rationalisation of services for children under the new agency.
Members will be aware that I established a task force to advise on the establishment of the new agency. I met the task force on 21 June for its final meeting. I expect to shortly receive its final report which will propose a vision for the agency, governance arrangements and appropriate services for inclusion in the agency. I intend to publish the report before the end of July. It will inform decisions on legislative proposals and transitional arrangements for the new agency. Extensive work is under way in my Department, the HSE and through the task force to prepare for the establishment of the child and family support agency. The Government's ambitious timetable will see the agency assuming full statutory responsibility for services for children and families early in 2013. This is obviously a major change programme which requires a lot of co-operation. From the feedback we have received thus far, front-line staff are looking forward to the establishment of the agency and the type of changes that will be brought about as a result of its establishment. This a big challenge. It is a new departure in the delivery of services. It is clear that the old way was not working.
In April I announced that in line with the programme for Government the practice of sending 16 year olds to St. Patrick's Institution would cease. I am pleased to inform members that in May I signed a statutory instrument to cease this practice. From that date, all newly remanded or sentenced 16 year olds are being detained in the children's detention facilities at Oberstown. Within two years all those under 18 years who need to be detained - the numbers in this regard are decreasing, although they are probably emerging under the child protection services - will be sent to dedicated child-specific facilities on the Oberstown campus, for which I have received capital funding of approximately €50 million. The detention of children in St. Patrick's Institution, an adult prison, has been criticised for over 25 years by domestic and international observers as being inappropriate for the rehabilitation of children and addressing their complex needs. As I previously stated, the path from St. Patrick's Institution to Mountjoy has been too well worn down through the decades, and I hope the changes I introduce will help to end that cycle.
I also bring to the attention of the committee that since our last meeting, in conjunction with my colleague, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, I have extended the remit of the Ombudsman for Children to cover St. Patrick's Institution. She has been requesting this for a long time but it was not done before. It has now been done and I have extended the remit to cover the institution, with the order giving effect to this change by statutory instrument coming into effect on 1 July 2012.
Two weeks ago I published Ireland's first guidelines for the responsible retailing of children's clothing to address increasing concerns over the sexualisation of childhood. These guidelines were prepared by Retail Ireland on foot of an invitation I issued to Irish fashion retailers earlier this year. They are not just about restricting what retailers can sell, but providing constructive guidance on best practice on a range of issues, such as styling, slogans, age-appropriateness, size, labelling and marketing. This code will play an important and constructive role in informing future decision making by retailers.
I have received a very positive reaction to this initiative, particularly from parents, since first expressing my views as Minister on the need for action in the area. It is important to note that Retail Ireland has provided a mechanism for parents, if they have concerns, to make contact, and there will be an annual report outlining the issues arising for parents and what is being reported. It will be interesting at the end of the first year to see precisely what concerns have emerged, if any, or whether the number of concerns are decreasing.
Last week saw a national play day being celebrated, with 25 local authorities - the highest number ever - arranging events around the country. Earlier this year, as the committee is aware, I launched a new national play and recreation network, which I established to bring together all local authorities to promote play and recreation and identify new policy initiatives. There was a very interesting meeting with staff from local authorities around the country, who discussed the plans in various local authorities to ensure, for example, that local schools have access to facilities at a time suitable for schools and the use of local parks for various sporting initiatives. There is much scope in this area at a local level, and this is an important issue to consider in the context of the obesity figures we have, with 25% of those aged three and nine overweight or obese. That initiative is one way of addressing the obesity issue.
The Hague convention on inter-country adoption formally entered into force for Vietnam on 1 February 2012. At the end of June a delegation of senior officials from the Socialist Republic of Vietnam made a week-long visit to Ireland. During this visit, positive discussions took place between the Vietnamese officials and the Adoption Authority of Ireland, leading to agreement on the contents of the final administrative arrangements for the resumption of adoptions between Ireland and Vietnam. I invited the Vietnamese Minister for Justice, Mr. Hà Hùng Cu?ng, to visit in September and it is expected that the agreement setting out the administrative arrangements will be signed by both central authorities during his visit.
Adoption is about putting the child's best interest at the centre of discussion, and that will always continue to be the case in our dealings with other countries. Details of timeframes and processes for adoptions from Vietnam should become clearer following the finalisation of the administrative arrangements by the two central authorities. The Adoption Authority of Ireland has approved Helping Hands Adoption Mediation Agency - Arc Adoption was already approved - as a registered accredited body for the purposes of adoption mediation within Vietnam. Accredited agencies also require the approval of the Vietnamese authorities or whatever national authority is appropriate. During their recent visit, the Vietnamese delegation visited with both bodies accredited by the Adoption Authority of Ireland to facilitate adoptions from Vietnam, with a meeting with representatives of Helping Hands in Cork and representatives of Arc in Dublin. The discussions the delegation held with these accredited bodies should assist future interactions.
I hope this gives the committee some flavour of the agenda in the Department. It is a full programme and I have touched on a range of issues which would be of interest to the committee and I thank members for their contribution to achieving progress to date. I continue to look forward to working with the committee on these issues.
I thank the Minister for her very comprehensive report. As a committee we are very happy to play a role, particularly with regard to the standards in child protection overseen by HIQA. If it is useful, we might invite representatives from HIQA to the committee. With regard to adoption, I met with the Vietnamese delegation and representatives of Helping Hands in Cork. If appropriate, the Vietnamese Minister might be invited by our Minister to accompany her to this committee in September, especially if we can play a useful role.
I thank the Minister for coming this morning, along with the Department Secretary General, Mr. Jim Breslin, and Mr. Michael O'Corcora. It has been a busy period and the Minister is overseeing a challenging portfolio. On the adoption issue, I welcome the efforts made in visiting Vietnam and trying to finalise administrative arrangements to get adoption up and running between the countries. Our adoption landscape has changed significantly, particularly in the past two or three years. Whenever adoptions resume from Vietnam, there will probably be a smaller number. The number of inter-country adoptions involving Ireland is also likely to be smaller in future; as a result it is all the more important that administrative arrangements are also considered for each country where adoption is possible and appropriate.
There are a number of parents who have received authorisation from the Adoption Authority of Ireland since its establishment but only a handful have proceeded. Part of that is owing to a time lag involved in completing the process. There are also much fewer avenues open for parents who wish to give a home to a family, so it is crucial that every effort is made not just with Vietnam, but with other countries. There must also be full consideration of bilateral agreements with countries such as Russia and Ethiopia, where there is a strong tradition of adoptions in recent years.
We have dealt extensively with the Children First legislation and although I welcome it, there is much work still to be done. There will be a regulatory impact assessment down the line but we have not given due regard at this stage to the likely impact of the pressures on the system from an increase in reporting, and how we should prepare for that. There should be more focus on such issues.
I welcome the Minister's move on the use of St. Patrick's Institution, with a commitment to investment so that those aged 16 and 17 can be moved from the institution over the next number of years. She has also moved to extend the remit of the Ombudsman for Children to include those people in St. Patrick's Institution.
It is unfortunate that as we move into the summer we do not have the referendum legislation or a clear idea on its wording. It is important that we have the children's referendum in the autumn because we do not know how crowded the political agenda will be after that. The autumn is an ideal opportunity for that referendum and some time in November should be the latest date; if we do not see the legislation coming through the Dáil until we return from the recess, it will be left on an unnecessarily tight schedule. The Minister has my full support in the consultation process. The earlier we can see its adoption the better. I would like the legislation and wording to be published over the summer, not wait until the Dáil returns. The longer that the referendum is in the public domain and people have a longer time to digest its contents and allow a conversation to take place then the healthier it will be.
On the last day the committee gave extensive coverage to the child death review group report. One instance that came out of it was the key finding and recommendation on mandatory reporting. Part of the report highlighted that the number of deaths versus natural deaths of children in the category of aftercare was significant. The amount was way out of kilter with both the natural versus the unnatural deaths in society in general and with the number of deaths among children who are in care under the age of 18 years. Children were vulnerable due to their experiences and it showed the dangers that they face once they reach the age of 18 years. It also showed the need for services in that category. When the Minister's party, Fine Gael, and the Labour Party were in opposition they gave a commitment to introduce mandatory reporting. When the Child Care (Amendment) Bill passed through the Dáil before the last election she advocated mandatory reporting. The review group's report showed that mandatory reporting is crucial. I ask the Minister to give a commitment to introduce mandatory reporting. Nothing less will be acceptable or appropriate to tackle the challenges that we face.
I ask the Minister and her Department to examine the issue of Internet safety over the summer period. In the past couple of days Members will have seen an EU wide report with an input from the Dublin Institute of Technology that showed worrying trends here. Between one and ten children between the ages of 9 and 16 years had accessed explicit sexual material, 14% of children between the ages of 9 and 16 years had accessed websites that advocated anorexia and there were many other instances. A stark finding was that only 51% of parents used blocking or monitoring technology or checked their child's Internet history. That means that half of parents were not monitoring their child's Internet usage. In the UK a number of Internet service providers have adopted an opt-in policy and we need to do the same here. Children are inquisitive. If they have access to material they will view it but they will not have reached a stage of development where they can properly digest or deal with the information. It is inappropriate for this country to leave it to 12 year olds to decide what is appropriate, particularly when more technology will be introduced in schools over the next few years.
Over the next week I encourage the Minister to ensure that the Fifth Report of the Special Rapporteur on Child Protection is published. We have waited about five months for it and it is crucial that it is laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas.
I wish to make a final point on the number of social workers. I know that social work is challenging and that these are challenging times. I see from the Minister's response to a parliamentary question I tabled that there were 1,196 social workers employed at the end of March 2012. That is the same number that was employed on 31 January 2011. The number increased throughout the year by 24 but has not returned to exactly where it was. I pointed out in the Dáil at Question Time that the key factor is that the number of children in care with an assigned social worker has drop from 94.5% to 92% and more pressure shall be placed on the system as a result of mandatory reporting and the Children First guidelines. Therefore, it is crucial that we examine the staffing numbers and investment again. We need reform but we also need resources. We cannot shy away from that reality. It will be challenging but we must ensure improvements take place.
I join with the Chairman in welcoming the Minister and her officials here. I thank her for the statement she put on the record of the committee this morning and for the information contained therein.
A few questions arise from the text. HIQA will publish the new national standards for the protection and welfare of children later this month. Shall I presume that will be after the recess in July? It is an important development and one that I regret that in the silly season - as it is often times referred to in the media - we may not get a chance to properly address. We can consider it in a more indepth way on the committee's resumption.
I shall focus on the three questions that I tabled in advance of this quarterly meeting with the Minister. My first referred specifically to the model or type of hours social care service that will be rolled out across the State. In her reply the Minister referred to the current HSE provision of out-of-hours emergency services for children at risk in the greater Dublin area and the emergency place of safety service. She also mentioned the two pilot projects in Cork and Donegal which we also addressed during the course of her attendance in the Dáil Chamber on Tuesday but I seek clarification. We are talking about a fully integrated system here yet it is apparent from all of the information to hand that it will be the child and family support agency who will be the principle body entrusted with oversight and roll-out of the service. It will no longer be under the remit of the HSE. It will be under the new agency's remit. If the new format only comes into being in early 2013, albeit in January, it will have a significant body of work to undertake. When does the Minister anticipate that an integrated, out-of-hours social care service for young people and children at risk will be in place? It is unlikely that we will have it early in 2013. It will be a job of work. Has the Minister any further information on when we can expect to see the long sought after system in place? Can she also refer to cross-Border contacts that have taken place or are intended to take place for the roll-out of the service? We have ample evidence to suggest that cross-Border co-operation in the area is important, especially in the interests of children in both jurisdictions.
My question No. 20 is on psychological and other therapeutic supports available following the disclosure of abuse and it was also directed at the Minister for Health. The reply was quite particular to psychologists, the number of psychologists in the service and those providing a psychological assessment, diagnosis and intervention. Does the Minister have additional information for me on other therapeutic support? I mentioned it in the body of my question but it was not mentioned in the reply. I would appreciate if the Minister could give me any further information in that regard. The figure cited for the number of psychologists in the health services, which we acknowledge has increased significantly in the ten years from 2002 to 2012, is 708. Clearly, not all of them would be addressing issues relating to children at risk and following disclosures of abuse. That is the number of psychologists employed across the health services. Does the Minister have a breakdown of the number that are focused specifically on child abuse related issues? My concern here is the long waiting lists for consultations and for counselling following on from first engagements.
The reply is inadequate in terms of what I was trying to establish. The Minister will understand what I am seeking, which is to shine a light in an area where I believe further resourcing is essential. My last question refers to the standardisation of reporting child protection concerns. In her reply the Minister indicates that the new national child care information system, the NCCIS, has "now gone to tender". This is an IT system dedicated to the compilation and retention of hugely sensitive information relating to child protection issues. Is it appropriate that this sensitive information bank be entrusted to the private sector? The tendering suggests that it is being farmed out to a private company or companies and I am concerned about that. Can the Minister comment on that aspect? If I am misreading it, that is good but if not, my concerns are not addressed and I wish to hear more about it. When will the tender process close? Has a budget been set aside for this?
Turning to the broader aspects of the national child care information system, have the definitions been set down in writing? I hope they have. If they have, will the Minister give members of the committee sight of them? It is important that we have knowledge of the agreed definitions and terminology to be employed. They should be circulated to all members of the committee. In reaching an agreed set of definitions, does it also entail an upskilling and training undertaking within the existing services across the board to arrive at a point where everybody is working from the same page?
I welcome the Minister and her colleagues. I am conscious of the Minister's wide agenda, the resources available in her Department and the urgency of so many of the issues she is dealing with because it has a daily impact on children's lives. I welcome her commitment to the child and family support agency. Obviously, I would like if matters were moving more quickly, but no doubt the Minister would like that too. It is critical that the necessary resources are transferred over. I hope that when the task force report is sent to the Minister she will send it to us as soon as possible so we, too, can provide that scrutiny and also support to ensure it is resourced.
This was underlined for me when we had a meeting two weeks ago on the independent review report into the child death review. The Minister mentioned the implementation plan she wishes to draw up. My question is about the last progress report on the Ryan report implementation plan. The second one was published last July so I expect there will be another progress report published soon. Is that the case? Will the outstanding commitments go into the new Gibbons-Shannon implementation plan report? The tracking of this is very important.
I commend the Minister on the retail guidelines. It sounds as if it was the Minister's own initiative. It is about protecting childhood and the more we can do to protect childhood, the better for society. I welcome that initiative.
I note the comments by Deputy McConalogue about children and the Internet. An issue about which I have a greater concern is the abuse of children material that is available on the Internet. Along with my colleagues I tabled a motion on this in the Seanad late last year. For the information of the committee, I was horrified to discover there is a prevalence towards going to abuse younger children, who cannot yet speak. I will not go into too much graphic detail but the Minister for Justice and Equality has given a commitment that he will seek to tackle the issue of blocking these sites within the sexual offences legislation he is to bring forward later this year. Ireland can no longer resist blocking. I ask my colleagues for their support in this regard.
One of my questions was about the forthcoming and promised referendum. While I am happy to receive the Minister's reply, I believe the timeline is slipping and I am anxious to secure an urgency about the referendum. I am also slightly concerned not so much by the Minister but by what is said by other people. Even today, however, the Minister called it the child protection referendum. For me it is clearly a children's rights referendum. Child protection is one aspect of the referendum, about having a proportionate response. That is an important aspect but there must be a framework in our Constitution to ensure that when the courts are making judgments they consistently uphold the best interests of the child, that they hear the voice of the child and that they treat all children the same. That is about children's rights. There is also the particular issue of children in long-term foster care who do not have the prospect of being reunited with their birth parents and who would seek to be adopted. It is a wider issue than just child protection. We should be careful with our language.
The Minister said she is engaging with the Opposition spokespersons. I urge her not to limit it to parties. I am the leader of the Independents group in the Seanad and my colleagues are all very interested in this issue. We are anxious to give our support so the Minister should also engage with Independents on this issue.
Question No. 13 in my name was about children with disabilities and independent inspections. I am very concerned about this issue. I welcome the Minister's statement that the HIQA standards on child protection will be published and put in place later this month. Why were children with disabilities not covered by these? I have been probing the question of independent inspections for children with disabilities but I feel I am being pushed from the Department of Health to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs and back again. Children are falling between the gaps between them. Everybody says these inspections will be forthcoming. When one looks at the Ryan report and its commentary, it points out that society knew things were happening but society did not take a role. I wonder if there are children now who are vulnerable but who are at a disadvantage because they do not necessarily have that voice. From my point of view, children with disabilities fall into this category. I wish to have a clear answer about who is responsible so I can pursue the question of ensuring there are independent inspections for children with disabilities. It is currently unacceptable.
I also have an issue about children in indirect provision. I realise it is not directly within the Department's remit but one third of all residents in direct provision are under 18 years of age. That is 2,000 children. I have visited one or two of the places that are providing direct provision and it is utterly wrong. These are residential settings. The sole residential place where we have children without inspections is not just where we have those with disabilities. Direct provision includes residential settings and we must ensure there are independent inspections examining the welfare of children.
The third area concerns homeless children. The Department has done much work on this issue but it is not in the public domain. These three categories of children are today's children. They do not all fall directly within the remit of the Minister but they tend to fall into the gaps between the Departments. Are they children first or are we dealing with the issue? They are being lost.
My final question concerned early childhood care and education. I welcome the work of the Minister in protecting resources but I had great difficulty with the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill. I refer to the treatment of lone parents and the proposal to bring in a model that will consider children under seven. I do not see the Department getting the resources to do so. In the answer provided, there is no assurance that we are taking steps to increase resources for children of lone parents, whose benefits will be reduced while resources for after-school care and early childhood education have not been provided. It is once again a question of falling between Departments.
Deputy McConalogue raised a number of issues and ideas and, while he is not present I can inform the committee that we are exploring a number of bilateral and administrative arrangements with other countries. The situation has changed dramatically since the signing of the Hague agreement and international adoption in Ireland is in a different place. It has been difficult for parents in the system due to the changes that were made. I am not sure they were explored sufficiently in advance and people were not aware of the impact of the changes. We are trying to give priority to securing administrative arrangements as we are doing with Vietnam. We are exploring the countries from where most Irish families have adopted, Russia and Ethiopia. There are complex issues in respect of both countries. I pay tribute to the work of the Adoption Authority of Ireland, the chairman and the staff who are working very hard to deal with cases before them. They are trying to build up relationships and develop administrative arrangements. They were in India recently and the news from there is positive. We have work to do and I am happy to follow up on that work. A number of other countries also require follow-up. There is discussion in the United States on clarifying the position of Florida. I assure the committee that much work is being done behind the scenes but we are dealing with complex international law and different situations. We must be sure about standards and that children are at the centre.
Will there be greater co-operation between the agencies and families in Ireland?
Yes, communication is an issue and families must be kept very well-informed. We are trying to do so. It is an anxious time for families when they are in the process and waiting to see what happens. There is a changed international situation as far as Ireland and inter-country adoption is concerned. There are more processes to undergo and we must ensure we are working through the central authorities in different countries. We have seen what happens when that is not done. It ends up with a difficult situation for everyone involved and difficult outcomes. We must work and encourage parents to work, agency to agency, which is the best way to conclude international adoptions.
Approximately 80 countries have signed the Hague Convention. The situation with international adoption is changing, with fewer children available even though many children remain in orphanages in various countries. The policy under the Hague arrangements for adoption from countries we adopted from formerly is to encourage domestic adoption first. Many countries are now moving to a situation where they encourage domestic adoption. There are fewer children in the country and they tend to be older children in need of intercountry adoption. The situation has changed but progress is being made in respect of a number of countries. Members can see that in the case of Vietnam.
Internet safety was raised by Deputy McConalogue and Senator van Turnhout. Last month, the Department met the team behind the survey referred to by Deputy McConalogue. It is undoubtedly disturbing. I went to London some time ago and met with Scotland Yard, the Safer Internet Centre, and the children services in the UK. The Garda Síochána accompanied me on that visit because it is an issue that requires real attention. Senator van Turnhout cited the figure of 50% of parents being unaware of what their children access. Some very young children were accessing unsuitable sites.
There are a number of initiatives, such as the one taken by the Garda Síochána in local schools. I attended the launch of it some time ago. The Garda Síochána is sensitive to the issue and it requires a specialist response. The Minister for Justice and Equality is examining legislation to see if legislative initiatives can be taken, as was mentioned by Senator van Turnhout. We have also held safer Internet days to highlight the issue. New technology brings huge opportunities for young people but also new challenges and threats. The survey indicated the threats. We must examine the area. We encourage parents to be aware of webwise.ie. We need to ensure parents and young people get information because one of the points to emerge at the meeting in London was that many young children are inadvertently uploading material that is, to their surprise, used on the Internet. They may put up inappropriate photographs in innocence and the photographs are used and abused. It is a serious issue for young people to be aware of and for parents. If the committee has ideas about further initiatives, it is one we need to examine. We must be alert.
Has the Department dealt with Facebook, for example?
This is an area in which we must continue to work. We can meet with some of the providers. It is notoriously difficult to police the Internet but it is something we can explore.
Over the past number of weeks, since the summer holidays, any members who use Facebook as a medium of communication see more and more young people posting inappropriate remarks and comments. This goes back to the point made by Senator van Turnhout and Deputy McConalogue that the trend is becoming more worrying. Are parents aware of what their children, as young as nine years old, are doing?
The most recent survey, which is credible research carried out by a credible organisation, shows that 50% of parents are not aware. This is an area in which we need to spread information. It is a major educational job.
Are social media providers aware of their responsibilities or are they happy to opt out, given that it is the world wide web?
This issue is being raised more and more internationally. Every member of the committee knows how difficult it is in respect of policing. Senator van Turnhout referred to blocking mechanisms that can be used. My Department and the Department of Justice and Equality will see what scope there is for legislative potential in that area. The way to go is probably to focus primarily on education and information.
After care was also mentioned by Deputies Ó Caoláin and McConalogue with regard to the group of 16 to 18 year olds. This emerged in the child death report. Along with every other Deputy, I am becoming increasingly aware of working with and supporting this older age group. We speak a lot about early intervention but the problems 15 to 20 year olds face, in particular vulnerable 15 to 20 year olds, are very striking, especially in regard to drugs and alcohol. While we were all shocked by events at the concert last weekend, we must face the fact this is not confined to one dance, one concert or one event in the park. Every weekend we see what happens outside pubs and nightclubs, including stabbings and violence. The child death report showed that alcohol and drugs played a huge part in many of the deaths. We have a very real challenge to address in that area. Clearly, the question of stronger legislation is but one part of that in terms of the obligations of the HSE. The committee is well aware of the advice I received that the HSE has to do an assessment. However, I have given a commitment to bring forward legislation, when I establish the child and family support agency, to strength and clarify the role and obligation of the HSE to assess young people before they leave care. I hope to combine this legislation with the legislation for the new agency which I will bring in later this year. I believe that will make a difference.
Deputy Ó Caolain raised a number of points, including on out-of-hours. It might be helpful to him if I gave some information on the pilot projects and the evaluation Trinity College did. As he knows, the evaluation and the two pilot projects have been completed, but they will continue. The HSE decided it needed to evaluate the learning from those out-of-hours projects. The overall objective of the study done by Trinity College was to evaluate how the pilot out-of-hours projects worked in terms of their effectiveness, efficiency and value for money, to undertake an analysis of the referrals to the out-of-hours services in terms of the nature and appropriateness of referrals, the effectiveness of the response and the outcome, to examine the service arrangements within the two pilot projects in terms of management, staff, governance and value for money and to look at effectiveness as well, to evaluate the interaction between the out-of-hours services, the Garda and the company providing the foster placements and to draw conclusions and make recommendations. That report is back. It analysed the records the HSE had and interviewed HSE managers, Garda representatives and representatives from the Irish Foster Care Association and sent a written report back which, as I said in the House the other day, has been received by the HSE.
There are critical steps. This model did not exist over the past ten years. We have now had two pilot projects and an evaluation of them. There are critical next steps. They include designing the national model which is likely to include a call centre with on-site social workers, extended working arrangements around the country and maybe on-call arrangements in rural areas. The model is not completely worked out yet. I think I informed the Deputy that the director of child and family services is working on developing the model and hopes to be able to come back to me in September with an outline of that national model.
There has to be a discussion with staff interests. It will be a priority area in terms of resources. I want to assure the Deputy of that. It will be taken forward by Gordon Jeyes. We are making progress and, as I said, there have been huge improvements. We have had the pilot projects and the evaluation. We know the issues which need to be addressed and that there is variation around the country in terms of demand. We must match the resources to that varied demand.
There is work to be done but I hope by giving the Deputy the detail of the issues being examined in the out-of-hours service gives him a sense that there is real work going on in regard to developing the model. It is urgent, but to reassure people, if children are at risk outside the usual hours, foster places are available for them and the Garda have access to them. The whole issue of children staying in Garda stations, which was prevalent throughout the 2000s, does not happen now, or it would be very exceptional for that to happen. Children go to foster placements. That is the timeline.
I hope to have the outline of a national model from Gordon Jeyes in September. It is then a question of working on the implementation. When the new agency is established that will be one of the priority areas for Gordon Jeyes to take forward along with all the other priority areas with which he must deal. I will not pretend it can be done overnight but what I am clearly saying is that there has been progress and there is a roadmap now.
I accept that. Can it be rolled out before the conclusion of this Dáil term in a fully integrated way?
Before July?
No, the Dáil term. This is a Dáil session. The Dáil term is the duration of this particular Dáil - the 31st Dáil.
I would certainly expect that to be the case. I hope to see incremental development and that we would have the national roadmap in regard to the development of the services later this year and then begin to see a development from the pilot projects in the areas where there is most need to begin with, that is, clearly some of the urban areas. We must examine the figures, which are available - I can discuss them with the Deputy at another point - of the number of cases that have come to the attention of the crisis intervention service in Dublin and around the country. The numbers are not huge but they can be critical. That is the point. Accessing the service is the important issue.
The Deputy asked a question in regard to the NCCIS. This is critical and I have said on a number of occasions that the lack of national data is very disturbing. We must move to a system where we have national data. The child and family support agency will own and manage the system. The IT system is being tendered and the successful bidder is likely to have delivered such systems in other countries. The HSE has ruled out the standard business processes and terminology in advance of the IT system, which we discussed before. That is the best practice in terms of moving to implement this IT system. I would be very happy to make available a briefing on the detail. What is important is that the tender is out and I understand the decision will be made in September. It is expected it will be rolled out next year. It is very important because we need this data. I have said repeatedly that I am disappointed by the lack of national data. It is extraordinary that throughout all the years of the so-called "Celtic tiger" we did not manage to set up a national system to find out about child protection and child welfare cases and that we do not have a national system.
What does the tender entail? Is it only in terms of provision? Does it include operation, oversight, maintenance, etc? My concern, as already expressed, is that this hugely sensitive database will be under the control of a non-public body or institution. Will the Minister clarify what is involved here? Are we offering to a private company overall control in regard to this database?
Perhaps I will ask the Secretary General to make some comments on that.
Mr. Jim Breslin
That is not the intention. The model of tender being used is that the child and family support agency will own, manage and control the system. It will set the specifications for the system but the tender is to get a technology company which can actually write the system for it - write the code and deliver it to it. However, it will be owned, maintained and controlled by the public entity, the child and family support agency. It will build on experiences in other countries which have rolled out similar systems and the public entity has owned and managed it.
I can arrange a briefing if committee members would like a briefing in this regard.
Definitions.
Yes.
Senator van Turnhout raised a number of issues. We will do an updated Ryan report. We need a database that takes account of the range of reports and recommendations at this point and streamlines the responses to them.
The Ryan report is due in September. I take Senator van Turnhout's point on briefing and I am happy to brief Independent Members of the Oireachtas on developments on the referendum. She also asked about the areas the referendum will cover and the use of the term child protection. Effectively, if one is talking about making children visible in the Constitution, which is what the referendum is about, one is effectively dealing with child protection in the broadest sense. The Senator's point on the concept of taking into account the views of the child and the best interests of the child were examined last week at a seminar which was run by the Children's Rights Alliance and the public law initiative and another group. It has been said again and again and in the last committee report on the referendum that these issues should be contained in any constitutional referendum and there should be provision for children who currently cannot be adopted to be adopted. I want to reassure members that those issues will be dealt with in any proposed wording. Clearly there are challenges in respect of the precise wording as DeputyÓ Caoláin and others who were members of the previous committee are aware, but that is the intention. There are probably some 1,600 children who are in long-term foster care who, if the Constitution had been different, could have been offered a second change in a stable family home in terms of adoption. Luckily many of them have been placed with foster parents who have given them great care but some of those families would have liked to have adopted those children but were not in a position to do so.
A great deal of work is being done in relation to the adoption legislation. I have said that no work had been done on that. It had not been said that this legislation would be published alongside the referendum. I have taken the decision to publish it because I think it is in the public interest that when they are voting in a referendum they know precisely what they are voting on. These are very complex issues concerning adoption and there is a great deal of information of which people must be aware. I take the point that people will need to be fully informed in relation to the range of issues that will be addressed in the referendum.
On the HIQA standards, I have had discussions with the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch on the guidelines and standards for children with disability. I have been informed by HIQA that it believes the best way forward is to continue the work it is doing looking at the adults and in many cases children who are in these residential setting and to combine the standards that apply to children and adults in those setting. That work is being done together. The Minister for State, Deputy Lynch, assures me that work is ongoing on the standards and they will be published next year. In the meantime these services that are directly under the HSE and the child protection services will be published later this year. The point is rightly made that we need standards in relation to all children and the Senator is particularly concerned about residential services for children with disability. I understand that concern, given the data that emerged in the Ryan and other reports that examined this area. To reiterate, work is ongoing and the Minister of State, Deputy Lynch, is responsible and will be publishing standards. The Senator might like to check with her the precise timetable.
There is very close collaboration in the work on the early years programmes. We have an interdepartmental group examining in detail the issue. That interdepartmental group comprises representatives from my Department, the Departments of Social Protection and Education and Skills. There is also a Cabinet committee looking at it. We want to build on the success of the ECCE scheme. We are specifically examining the support for those entering the labour market and the scope to build on the two schemes we have in place, the CETS and the CCS. Clearly there are budgetary constraints, equally there are demands. There are vacancies in child care settings throughout the country. Child care places are available. The question of course is the funding for and access to them. There is quite a bit of demand for places in child care training and education support, CETS and the community child care subvention scheme. Both of those are already been targeted at low income groups. There are many facilities around the country. It is one area where there has been significant investment in capital infrastructure and places. We are examining precisely what the impact of changes in social welfare will have in terms of demand for after school places. I assure members that work is being done.
As a member of the Oireachtas Committee on Health, Children and Youth Affairs it is important to raise what happened at the Phoenix Park concert last Saturday. This would have been the first time that many young teenagers would have attended a concert. Alcohol was a major cause of the disgraceful behaviour and its outcomes. The topic of debate in the national media is the effect this will have on the situation for young people in the future. I am appealing to the Ministers for Children and Youth Affairs, Justice and Equality, and the Environment, Community and Local Government, Finance and Health to work together. Alcohol abuse is out of control. Something must be done about it. The talking has been done and it is time for action.
I thank the Minister and her officials for joining us this morning at our earlier starting time, which I think is very welcome.
Were any interviews conducted with the children and families who participated in the pilot programme of the out of hours services conducted in counties Donegal and Cork when the scheme was reviewed and the service evaluated? What was their experience of this out of hours service? It is a new venture for families who are facing difficulty. Was it effective in terms of the viewpoint of parents rather than social workers and Garda? If parents found it effective that is a very welcome development as it was not the case in the past. Second, I wish to raise the issue of support for early childhood care and education. There is no doubt that it is a very successful scheme, a fact that needs to be reiterated. Now nearly 95% of preschool children engage in this service. A significant sum of money is spent on it and additional moneys up to €175.5 million will be spent this year. What are we doing to ensure that these are high quality placements? We have spoken about early intervention and prevention and trying to ensure that young people do not end up in high support care or in juvenile detention centres. What is the Government doing to ensure the people who are getting money to provide an early years service are providing an effect service? Who is looking at the curriculum and the outcomes? We know that a good quality preschool education experience for young children can benefit a child both socially, emotionally and in their language and literacy development. If children have all those skills when starting primary school, they are far less likely to be the children who end up in St. Patrick's Institution. We need joined up thinking. I think there are some areas that need improvement. There are some staff who need further training and support. I appeal to the Minister to examine this issue. Even within the restricted resources we have, significant upskilling for a small investment of money could have significant benefits down the line in the outcomes for children.
An issue arose during our discussion on the heads of Children First. There seemed to be a significant number of early years child care workers who had not received child protection training. We were all alarmed when we heard this but I welcome the announcement that specific training has been designed by the HSE and a cascading model of train the trainer will be rolled out. I understand the National University of Ireland, Galway, NUIG, is in the process of evaluating that training. That is a really positive step to ensure we have good quality and safe early child care places for our children. A report a number of months ago raised critical incidents in early care setting of children being hungry, not being supervised properly and going missing. Given that a significant amount of State money is being pumped into the early childhood sector we have to be careful that the standards are not only met but also supervised and measured.
I am a member of a committee of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly which is investigating the issue of human trafficking. Several weeks ago I visited the Welsh Assembly to hear evidence from an official who has been appointed to deal with human trafficking on a national basis. Some of our newspapers have reported in recent weeks that Ireland has been identified as a safe haven for child traffickers. I ask the Minister whether she is aware of this alarming trend and, if so, the steps she is taking to ensure that children are protected in Ireland, regardless of their origin. I am awaiting a response from the HSE to a parliamentary question I have tabled regarding the number of children who go missing after coming here as unaccompanied minors. My greatest fear is that they are trafficked children and this is an issue on which the Government needs to act.
I endorse everything that Deputy Conway said. The Minister will be well aware of the issues arising in regard to trafficking and I hope significant progress can be made in this regard.
I am disappointed that we had to wait until 5.35 p.m. yesterday to receive responses to questions that we submitted two months ago. This meeting was postponed from a fortnight ago but at our last meeting we agreed it is not acceptable that the committee only receives this information shortly before meetings start.
In fairness Deputy Naughten, this is the only committee that holds quarterly meetings with Ministers and which allow questions to be submitted in advance.
With due respect, we have facilitated that.
Apart from our ongoing engagement with Ministers, this is the only committee that holds quarterly meetings to make these facilities available to members.
Out of courtesy we should get responses in advance of our meetings. That is the case with the Minister for Health.
I refer specifically to two of my questions, Nos. 9 and 11. The Minister stated that there is a need for a national data system. We all agree that such a system is urgently required but the data provided in response to my detailed question No. 11 are very sparse. I recognise this is more of an issue for the Department than for the Minister but the relevant data have not been furnished in the reply even though they are available to the Department and child welfare services. I submitted that question two months ago, along with a parliamentary question to the Department. That information has not yet been furnished even though the HSE has compiled it. I asked for a breakdown for 2009 and 2010 of the numbers of initial assessments of reports, suspected cases of abuse and ongoing assessments of child welfare concerns. I can set out the figures for the Cavan-Monaghan area for 2008 but we cannot get the relevant data for 2009 and 2010. That directly contravenes one of the recommendations in the Ryan report. Twelve months ago the second progress report on the implementation of the Ryan report indicated that we should get this revised data for 2009, with further enhanced information for the 2010 report. The only data we received are national headline figures. Something is wrong in the Department if that type of information is not provided even though it is compiled at PCCC area level.
Question No. 9 deals with an issue that I have previously raised regarding the audit of cases of serious neglect in County Roscommon on foot of the Roscommon child abuse report. I would be grateful if the Minister could furnish me with an answer because in November 2010, while the audit was taking place, Phil Garland informed me in response to a parliamentary question that all the cases of serious neglect in County Roscommon were being audited as of early September 2010. Some 500 cases are currently open in County Roscommon, of which more than half fall into the category of neglect. However, it was decided that only 30 of these cases would be audited. I want to know why that decision was taken. The audit was completed in February 2011 and it found that children were inadequately safeguarded in almost one in four of the cases audited. It was not possible to make a determination in one in six of the cases based on the information provided on file. This indicates that 40% of the 30 cases were inadequate but the audit has not yet been published. I was informed by the HSE that it intended to publish a redacted version of the audit and the Minister advised in a reply to a parliamentary question that an executive summary of the audit would be published. Nothing has been published and we are now being told that we will be given a composite report on Roscommon, Waterford and south Dublin.
A detailed and damming report was written on the neglect of a particular family in County Roscommon. On foot of that report an audit was carried out and all of us, as public representatives, believed it would overhaul the system and identify problems in County Roscommon. We are now being told that the audit report will not be published even though one in four of the files were found to be inadequate and, in some cases, inadequate action was taken in respect of the children concerned. It is unacceptable that the audit will not be published. The Minister has stated that the audits conducted by the Catholic church should be published.
I ask the Deputy to conclude.
Certain audits have been published on foot of child death reports but even though the audit of County Roscommon was recommended by an independent report it is not going to be published. That is not good enough.
I thank the Minister for attending the meeting and welcome many aspects of her report. Her initiative on play and recreation must be promoted among young children to counter the influence of the other options available to them, such as the Internet. The more children are encouraged to enjoy their childhood, the better.
I presume we will see the wording on the referendum as soon as it is available. I am slightly concerned about the way the campaign may operate, primarily because of the McKenna judgment. I may be naive but I believe the bulk of political forces will probably support the referendum. How will we deal with the obscure opposition groupings that may be given a platform because of that judgment?
In regard to the Report of the Independent Child Death Review Group, is it the Minister's view that the best way of dealing with the issues arising is by providing as much support as possible to families who are in difficulty? To what extent will the State be able to deal with that?
I thank Deputies for their questions. Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick raised alcohol abuse, an issue we must take extremely seriously at national policy level. As the Deputy correctly noted, initiatives are required on a number of different fronts and several Departments have responsibilities in this area. The Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Róisín Shortall, is bringing forward a comprehensive range of proposals to tackle alcohol abuse. We have highly disturbing information to show Irish children are drinking from a younger age than their counterparts elsewhere in Europe and in greater quantities. Last weekend, Irish people saw an example of the impact of our drinking habits which, as Deputy Fitzpatrick noted, is visible every weekend.
Irish people must face up to our national ambivalence towards alcohol, which has been well documented over the years. We must examine the international evidence on action that could be taken to make a difference. Tighter regulation of the off-licence trade, restrictions on advertising and sponsorship and many other issues need to be given serious consideration and action must be taken. Education and information also have a major role to play. Alcohol abuse is a serious issue which emerges in every report about young people. It also featured strongly in the report into the deaths of children in care, many of which were the result of overdoses involving the consumption of alcohol.
Statistics on alcohol are striking, for instance, alcohol is a feature in the deaths of one in four young men. We need to pull together international evidence on this matter and take action. I assure Deputy Fitzpatrick that the Government will introduce a comprehensive action plan on substance misuse.
Services that are working with adults will have to increasingly focus on the impact of the adult's or adults' drinking on children in the family. In many cases, this impact has been hidden and emerges subsequently in child protection cases. Serious issues arise in regard to services for adults working with services for children. When services are dealing with adults who abuse drugs or alcohol they must examine the impact of the abuse on children in the family. Providers of adult services need to be conscious that this impact has frequently remained hidden, as is made clear in the report on the deaths of children in care.
Deputy Conway is correct that we must be clear about the standards of child care in light of State investment in this area. A number of actions can be taken in this regard. Two programmes on standards, Síolta and Aistear, are being implemented. It is not enough to simply provide a service; we must strive to provide a high quality service. After all, child care services provide care for young children for long periods and sometimes from the early hours of the morning. For this reason, it is critical that the care provided is of high quality.
A number of other areas also need to be improved, for example, the current inspection regime requires an overhaul. By international standards, the number of inspections being carried out is large. Whereas in other countries child care services may be inspected on a rolling basis every two or three years, last year, 61% of Irish child care facilities were inspected, which is a high proportion in a single year. Other reviews were also carried out.
Inspection reports should be published online and parents should have access to them. Parents who have concerns need to raise them with their local child care committees, as I am sure many of them do. The county child care committees play an important role and I commend the work they do. They deal with the implementation of standards, on which many initiatives are being taken. However, there is no room for complacency because child care work is of great importance. Traditionally, this type of work has been poorly paid and those employed in child care are not paid what one would expect. There is an increased focus on child care workers obtaining a level 6 FETAC award and increasing their training. At a time of limited resources, it is difficult for child care services to support staff engaging in this training but they are doing a good job in seeking to do so. We need to continuously monitor this area and examine reports being submitted to us. If services are in any way unsatisfactory, some of them will be closed. We must take this issue seriously.
On the Deputy's point on training for Children First, I visited the St. John of God centre in Stillorgan yesterday. I was highly impressed with the organisation's focus. St. John of God runs many services for vulnerable children and adults. Yesterday, it had arranged a full day of staff training attended by representatives of the Health Service Executive who discussed the initiatives the HSE is taking on training for Children First and caring for vulnerable adults. Organisations delivering services are strongly focused on developing training and it is an area to which we are committed.
Given that the Children First guidelines were issued ten years ago, it is not the case of having to reinvent the wheel. Considerable experience has been acquired over the years on how to report and what issues need to be reported. A great deal of training has also been done. I am aware that an issue arose regarding child care providers during the joint committee's recent hearings on Children First. We will ask the Health Service Executive to address the issue in question.
Deputy Conway also raised the issue of trafficking and referred to the joint committee a highly disturbing report alluding to the idea that Ireland could be considered a safe haven for trafficking. I pay tribute to Deputy Naughten's work on this issue over the years. Recently, in the Dáil, I provided some statistics on the number of unaccompanied children coming to this country. The figure has decreased dramatically and much greater attention is being given to the number of children arriving here. For example, a dedicated team of social workers engages with such children and they are placed with foster families rather than in hostels. It is possible that some of the unaccompanied children who arrived here have been trafficked. While it is hard to believe this could occur, international research shows that children and women are trafficked. We would not have considered this possible some years ago but the harsh reality is that trafficking in women and children is a feature of international crime. The Garda is aware of the problem and is working on it. The customs service must also be highly alert to the problem. We certainly do not want to acquire a reputation as a haven for traffickers. The issue needs to be seriously addressed. As I noted the number of unaccompanied minors arriving in Ireland has decreased significantly. I believe the care and management of such young persons is much better than in the past, although we need to remain alert to the issues.
Deputy Naughten raised an issue regarding a reply to a parliamentary question he tabled. I apologise if he believes he was not given sufficient data. It was not clear from the question that the breakdown sought related to the number of initial assessments and confirmations. The Deputy asked about the type of abuse and that is the information we provided. The Department has information on the numbers of assessments and can circulate it to the Deputy. I have spoken previously about the deficits in information, which are not always shortages of information but sometimes relate to problems in comparing data or unreliable data arising from changes in the system over the years. I will obtain further information for the Deputy.
Deputy Naughten also made a number of points on the Roscommon case. The information that emerged from the case in question was a cause of great concern not only to the Deputy but everyone in the country. The position at national level is that Gordon Jeyes, the national director for children and family services, has implemented national quality assurance guidelines, which provide for ongoing audit and supervision. Audit should not be a once-off exercise but must take place on an ongoing basis. It is my understanding that the results of the audit of the Roscommon case will be published in composite format alongside the results of the other pilot audits in Waterford and Dublin. The Deputy appears to be unhappy that the report will be composite in nature. Issues such as anonymity need to be respected when a report of this nature is published. He cited the sample of 30 cases and some of the concerns that emerged in these cases. I have said time and again there are huge challenges in this area in terms of national standards. While we might all assume there should be a certain approach to child protection cases, it is clear from the child death report and other reports that there has been huge variation, and not an acceptable level of variation. That is the reason I am pleased that HIQA is ensuring there are standards in this area just as for hospitals. We need to approach child protection in the same way. That is the intention with these new standards, and it will help. Obviously, it is an area of high demand. To arrive at a situation where we have the standards that should apply will take time. I believe that what Gordon Jeyes is striving to put in place are national quality standards in regard to the assessments. I will try to get some extra information for the Deputy on the date of publication of the report on Roscommon. It is the intention to publish.
I accept what the Minister is saying, but we were told up to now that a redacted version of the national audit of neglect cases on Roscommon would be produced. Based on the initial report on the abuse case in Roscommon, that audit needs to be published in whatever format. There are huge concerns in respect of the Roscommon case, not just because of inadequate action but, at the other extreme, because health professionals have expressed concerns that in some cases the child care services are going too far. It is important that report is published in light of what happened nationally.
I apologise for my late arrival as I had to attend a local meeting. I thank the Minister for her reply to Question No. 6, giving an in-depth report on all the figures and the amount of money her Department allocates. I may come back to the Minister on some of the figures as I have not had an opportunity to examine them.
I wish to deal with what happened last weekend in the Phoenix Park, which involved alcohol. Communities were terrorised and many people had to stay indoors. There was a lack of respect for those who live in the surrounding areas, including Chapelizod and Ballyfermot. I note that in the area of drugs education and prevention, there is a drug prevention officer. Leaving aside the drugs issue, I am concerned that people as young as 12 years of age are becoming involved in drinking in side streets and parks. Two of my children were at the concert on Saturday night and had a fantastic time and enjoyed the music. They came home safe, thank God, and did not see much of what happened. For those young children who did see what happened, it was terrifying.
With regard to the allocation of resources to drug prevention through education, I am not sure we are tapping into the right places. The schools are being covered but the drug prevention officers should focus on community organisations such as youth clubs and the GAA and even dancing groups in parish halls. I would like to deal with the issue in greater depth but I have not had time to read the entire response.
I thank the Minister for her reply on the Gaisce awards, which are wonderful. Many young people in my community go forward for such awards. As a parent I have attended many presentations with other parents. The award is significant for individual children as it gives them a different rating within the school, and can influence their attitudes about participation in class. I did not realise the Gaisce awards were given in the North.
I call on Deputies McConalogue and Ó Caoláin.
To follow up on the points raised by Deputies Byrne and Fitzpatrick, this issue was dealt with before. The growing alcohol abuse problem is one on which we have to be determined and have a strong resolve. From speaking with people who attended the concert in the Phoenix Park at which there were particular problems, the feedback I received was that people had rarely seen a bar at a concert as quiet as that one. This shows the impact that drugs had at that event. I understand the bar at the concert the previous night was very busy. This shows there is a serious issue with alcohol, which we need to tackle. We can change how we deal with off-licences, which are regulated by the State. There are very strong regulations in regard to drugs but the evidence from the concert was that the problem is deep. Certainly, from anecdotal evidence, it played a significant part.
I thank the Minister for her reply on social workers. I seek clarification on her plans in this regard. She indicated a couple of months ago that she had given authority to the HSE to employ an additional 57 social workers in light of the early retirement scheme. On several occasions in the House throughout last year she indicated to Deputy Ó Caoláin and me that it was her intention, specifically during 2011, to recruit an additional 60 social workers. Following on from the Ryan report implementation plan, some 200 were to be hired the previous year, 60 in 2011 and ten in 2012. According to the figures supplied in the Minister's reply today, she indicated that at 31 January 2011 there were 1,196 social workers in the area of child and family services. The most recent figure available to the Minister, in the same reply, showed that we have exactly the same number working in the services today, at 1,196. The number increased a little during the year; at the end of December it had increased by 24. That was the highest number at any time in 2011. The number has now dropped back to the same level. Will the Minister clarify whether it was her intention to hire an additional 60 social workers in 2011? That certainly did not happen, as was shown clearly in her reply today. What is the plan in terms of increasing the number?
I have a question.
I will bring Deputy Dowds in again.
I refer to questions I put to the Minister at the outset, to which she has not responded. There is no criticism involved in that. I appreciate that the Chairman must regulate the meeting and pass on the opportunity but I would not have spoken again if I had received an answer. The Minister did not address one of the three questions I posed. The first of the areas I focused on was the fully integrated system; I asked if there was any cross-Border dimension. I notice Mr. Jim Breslin acknowledging that. We do not raise these points just to extract information but because there is a possibility that this is not the case. I strongly believe it is important, and I wonder whether either the Secretary General or an tUasal O'Corcora is noting these points. Perhaps if there is not a cross-Border dimension already, there will be. As a Border resident, I strongly believe North-South co-operation in the area of child protection is hugely important.
The other question I asked was in regard to the standardised system of categorised reporting of child protection concerns. We dealt with the tender issue in respect of the NCCIS and I welcome the clarification. If there is further information available, I would also welcome it. Can the agreed definition set down in writing be circulated to committee members as soon as possible?
The last question on psychological and other therapeutic support services was not answered. I do not know how questions are tabulated, but I would not come back to annoy the Minister if she had addressed it at the time. I am anxious to know about the other therapeutic support services available. The answer I have received in writing only refers to psychologists; it does not deal with the other supports. I do not expect the Minister to have all the information immediately to hand. If the written answer could be revisited to provide expanded detail, that would suffice.
Deputy Catherine Byrne again raised the issue of alcohol which clearly is very serious. She is right in what she said about very young people. International research shows that those who begin to drink before the age of 15 years are four times more likely to develop alcohol dependence at some time in their lives than those who have their first drink at 20 years or older. What experience was it for those young people who took their first drink in going to a concert? We do not expect a trip to a concert to be life endangering. I knew one of the young men at the concert in the Phoenix Park who was stabbed repeatedly. Thankfully, he is recovering, but one can only imagine the shock for him and his family. There are huge issues about what happened. We need to see the reports on the security questions that clearly arise, but the visible showcasing of alcohol and drugs was very stark. A range of initiatives are needed to address the issue, but it is a national problem that needs the most serious attention. I thank the Deputy for her comments on the replies she had received.
A very exciting programme is being put in place this year by Gaisce and I hope to see some of the work done being extended into more communities, especially those experiencing disadvantage. I want to make sure young people have some good experiences and Gaisce offers a positive way to do this. There is also the North-South element.
I would like to make a few points on the issues raised by Deputy Charlie McConalogue. The amount of resources available to the HSE is critical when looking at the number of social workers available. I remind the Deputy that an additional €21 million is being provided in 2012. The budget for child protection and welfare services was eroded in previous years. The last Government approved a service plan for 2011 with a budget reduction of €14 million which clearly had an impact. In the new agency the only concern of local managers is the provision of child welfare and protection services. They are not being asked to decide between the filling of a social worker post and a nursing post at a community nursing unit or psychiatric hospital. As we have created the shadow agency and separated it out, they are making decisions on social worker posts rather than priority decisions on the recruitment of social workers or nurses. Mr. Jeyes and his team will be able to distribute resources to where workloads are the greatest. Clearly, that is what has to be done. It is not just the level of resources available, but how effectively they are deployed to contribute to improved outcomes for children.
I do not know how many times I have to say this to the Deputy, but 60 social workers were recruited. He is taking the gross figures at any one point. It is very clear that there is movement of social workers in and out of the service for a variety of reasons. I have given him the number of social workers who availed of the retirement scheme which impacted on overall numbers. Other social workers also leave for different reasons. There was an increase of 34 in the number of child and family social workers last year, before the 60 additional posts were filled. Those social workers have been recruited, but retention is clearly an issue, as it is in other countries. We have to address it by examining the support front-line workers receive and the supervision provided. It is not correct to say, therefore, that we did not recruit social workers. We did, but the retirements in January and the movement in and out of the service changed the figures. The extra social workers recommended in the Ryan report were recruited. That is the reality.
(Interruptions).
The Deputy has been in twice already.
I have, but to get to the nub of the issue-----
Please respect the Chair. The Minister has replied and there are outstanding issues to be dealt with.
If we cannot have clarity on this issue at the committee-----
The Minister has clarified the position.
She has done so several times both here and in the Dáil.
I am moving on. I ask the Minister to reply to Deputy Robert Dowds and Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.
I will come back to Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin in writing on the point he made about services for victims of abuse. Children who are sexually abused are often dealt with in the first instance in the local paediatric units, as well as in the specialist sexual abuse units. What is happening in terms of psychological services is a very important component, but I recognise the Deputy's interest in the other professional inputs. I will try to obtain further material for him to show precisely what is happening. The hospitals in Crumlin and Temple Street have a multidisciplinary service in St. Louise's unit and St. Teresa's Ward. Services in the rest of the country are provided mainly in paediatric departments in regional hospitals. Once an initial assessment has been carried out, the children are then referred to the local child protection team. I will try to obtain more information on what is available in terms of the therapeutic teams which are dealing with this aspect.
We are working on developing the out-of-hours model, on which I have answered questions and provided the details. I am meeting my Northern counterparts next week. We have a strong child protection programme. The Minister for Health, Social Services and Public Safety and I launched the cross-Border guidance policy on exchanging information and managing child protection cases.
Was that Mr. Poots?
Yes. There has been work done on out-of-hours GP services in Border areas and arrangements have been implemented. The take-up was not as high as expected, but we can look at that experience and learn from it.
Perhaps the Deputy might like me to brief him on the North-South work that has been done. We have completed one set of programmes and next week I will be discussing with my Northern counterpart the child protection programme.
The very first North-South interparliamentary association plenary meeting will take place here in October. We met last week in Stormont and determined an agenda for that important second strand of the Good Friday Agreement. The first item to be addressed in the morning session is our common concern on the issue of child protection. I was delighted to see the level of support provided across the board and the appreciation across the island of the need to address this issue together. It is of great importance. I would appreciate advice on the extent of the engagement heretofore because that it inform the debate.
That arises partly from the fact that there has been North-South co-operation on child protection and we launched the cross-Border protocol some months ago. There is now a strong new programme in respect of child protection North and South and I look forward to that meeting.
What about Deputy Dowds's remarks?
Deputy Dowds raised several points.
The main question to be responded to related to the child death review. My comment on the referendum was a political comment more than anything else.
Deputy Dowds made a point on the referendum. We must ensure that we communicate the key points and it is important to get these across to the public. I am sure others will make various points but I am clear that the referendum is about making children visible. It is about the key points I raised with Senator van Turnhout in respect of ensuring that where there are decisions involving the future of a child, his or her views are listened to and his or her best interests will be considered. Can Deputy Dowds remind me of the key point, please?
Given what the independent child death review uncovered about the number of deaths, I am concerned about the level of resources to ensure that this occurs as little as possible. To what extent will the Minister consider support for families as a way of getting over the problem?
Deputy Dowds made a key point about providing family support. Intervention at an earlier stage in some of those families and perhaps more precise interventions, including clearer risk assessments being done at a higher level and stronger family support, could have made a difference. There will be a new child and family support agency and when cases come in we must determine the child protection cases. Deputy Dowds noted that in many cases neglect will be an issue and building up family support will be as important as the child protection issues. We must be conscious of maintaining family support services as much as we can as well as developing clear child protection mechanisms. The report makes clear that actions are needed at a range of levels but it highlights the issue of agencies working together and especially the need for child and adolescence mental health services to work effectively with the child protection services to carry out proper risk assessments. Agencies must be clear about who does what.
Sometimes more resources are available than people realise but the allocation of these resources should be examined more carefully especially in the area of family support and early interventions. In some cases there was not enough intervention to take children into care. At times this was delayed and there were poor outcomes as a result. It can work both ways. High quality family support can prevent children going into care. Sometimes this does not work and at times the decision to take children into care was delayed with sometimes disastrous consequences.
Can I come in?
Briefly, Deputy, you have been in three times already.
I will be brief. A point was made about social workers.
The Minister has addressed that already and you have had it answered in the Dáil. I realise you are worried about the reshuffle today but-----
I wish to make a fair point. It is not confrontational. The commitment last year was for 60 additional staff. There is always movement within social services. The commitment the year before was for 200 additional staff and by the end of that year there were 233 additional staff as well as the backfilling. The Minister stated that she recruited 60 staff last year.
That is the same question.
There are no additional staff. We have the same number today as there was at the start of last year.
There was a retirement scheme. I made that clear.
We have not reached the number even with the 60 additional staff.
We have reached it. We have recruited. There have been issues about retention.
That was a case of backfilling posts and it did not include the additional staff.
I thank the Minister for being here this morning and for her engagement with the committee. I thank the members of the committee for their work and deliberations.
The joint committee adjourned at 11.35 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 19 July 2012.