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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 25 Jul 2012

National Educational Welfare Board: Discussion with Chairperson Designate

I remind members and people in the Public Gallery to switch off their mobile phones for the duration of the meeting because they interfere with the broadcasting equipment, even when on silent.

I welcome to our meeting Ms Nuala Doherty, chairperson designate of the National Educational Welfare Board. Ms Doherty is accompanied by Ms Catherine Hazlett. In May 2011, the Taoiseach set out arrangements for the making of appointments to State boards and the appointment of chairmen to those boards. Among the changes was that members of committees would have a role in the scrutinising of appointments. We are fortunate to have with us Ms Nuala Doherty, who is the chairman designate of the National Educational Welfare Board.

Members do not have a function in terms of blocking of nominations but they have an important role in the vetting and determination of suitability or otherwise of the nominated chairmen and it is an opportunity to engage in public session with the person nominated. In addition to informing the joint committee about the role and functions of the respective boards, we look forward to hearing from Ms Doherty regarding her reasons for applying for the post, her experience and suitability, and her vision for the board under her stewardship, along with the challenges and priorities facing her and the board.

Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise or make charges against any person or Members of either House of the Oireachtas, or a person outside the Houses, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Ms Nuala Doherty

I thank the Chairman and the committee. It is an honour to be invited to be the chairman designate of the NEWB and I am pleased to be here to discuss my approach to the job, my priorities and some of the challenges facing the board. I have circulated a presentation to give the members of the committee some background information. I am aware that just ten minutes are available to me. If members dip into the documentation I have furnished, they will get some background knowledge about the organisation and will be able to understand the priorities and challenges it faces.

The NEWB is a relatively new organisation. It has been in existence for ten years. It was established as a statutory organisation in 2002 in line with the Education (Welfare) Act 2000, which replaced the old School Attendance Act 1926. The school attendance officers moved into the education welfare service. The board has 12 members and a chief executive officer. Obviously, the board and the agencies have a particular interest in this subject. One of the biggest changes to have happened during the NEWB's ten years in existence took place in 2009, when it was given responsibility for three additional services: the home, school, community liaison scheme; the school completion programme; and the visiting teacher for Travellers initiative, which was subsequently discontinued. The big challenge that the NEWB has been dealing with since 2009 has been the integration of those three services into a single streamlined service that offers schools, children and families an integrated approach to attendance, participation and retention. The next big change for the NEWB took place last year, when responsibility for the board moved from the Department of Education and Skills to the newly-established Department of Children and Youth Affairs, which takes an integrated cross-governmental approach to co-ordinating with other services. That was seen as a very positive move. A review of the NEWB is taking place at present in the context of the establishment of the new Family Support Agency, about which I will say more later.

Most members of the committee will be familiar with the key functions of the Act, which places an emphasis on promoting school attendance. It is a very progressive Act because in addition to requiring the board to log non-attendance, it also gives it responsibility for promoting attendance by helping parents to send their children to school, understand the value of education and resolve some of the issues that prevent children from attending school. The legislation does not superficially say that the board should merely log non-attendance. It requires the board to understand the factors that lead to non-attendance and gives the board a broad and progressive remit and a number of duties regarding suspensions, expulsions and refusals to enrol. The board has to be notified when such things happen. Parents have the right to appeal refusals to enrol. Education welfare officers frequently accompany parents and enable them to make appeals. The members of the committee might not know that the board also has responsibility for the registration of education outside recognised schools. Parents who choose to educate their children at home have to register with the NEWB. Some 777 children are currently registered as being educated at home. Children attending non-recognised schools, such as junior schools that are not paid for by the State, also have to be registered with the board. The board has responsibilities with regard to research and offering policy advice and guidance to the two Departments.

The committee will be interested in the part of the briefing document that deals with the budget and staffing. Like every statutory agency, the board is under significant pressure at the moment. The NEWB's budget is €9.6 million. Under the employment control framework, its 2012 target is to have 100 staff. It currently has 91 staff. I am glad to say the board has recently been given permission to recruit three additional members of staff and two managers. The budget for the school completion programme is €28 million and the budget for the home school liaison programme, which is provided by teachers in schools, is €25 million. The board's extended remit was to join those three services, which do different work, together. The focus of the 124 school completion programmes around the country is on retaining children in school. The policy of the Government is that children should be retained in school until they reach the leaving certificate stage of the senior cycle. The school completion programme is really an intervention with children through projects such as breakfast clubs and after-school programmes that aim to retain children in school. It is focused almost exclusively in disadvantaged areas. Home school liaison teachers work with parents on early intervention. The strongest way of securing children's engagement in school is to try to make a good connection between school and home for parents. Education welfare officers have a responsibility to ensure children attend school. If that is not happening, they have the statutory authority to take parents to court if they suspect that the parents are in breach of the law and their children are being denied an education. The three services have a different focus, but they are complementary. Essentially, many of them are working with the same families. An attempt was made in 2009 to make the services work better together and to integrate them better.

People are always interested in the facts in relation to school attendance. Over 800,000 children are in school in Ireland. People probably know there has been an increase. Anyone involved in education knows about the additional pressure on the education sector. Since 2005, the number of children in our primary schools has increased by 50,000 and the number of children in our post-primary schools has increased by 9,000. Schools are required to make annual returns to the NEWB in relation to children's absences. In 2009-10, the latest school year for which figures are available, children in primary school missed an average of 11 days and children in secondary school missed an average of 13 days. Over 111,000 pupils miss more than 20 days in school each year. In the 2009-10 year, there were ten expulsions from primary schools and 148 expulsions from post-primary schools. Expulsion continues to be a rare occurrence. It affects just 0.05% of students in our secondary schools. It is important for the committee to note that our figures are very similar to those in Northern Ireland and the UK. The rate of absence in 2009-10 was lower than the average rate for the previous five years, which is heartening. Internationally, school attendance has been a very stubborn problem to resolve.

Legal activity is rare. The board takes a welfare approach that involves trying to get to the bottom of the reasons children do not attend school in the first instance. When all of the welfare options have been exhausted, a school attendance notice or a summons can be issued and the parents can be brought to the District Court. That would be a very serious matter because they would face criminal charges. The burden of proof is high in such circumstances. There have been 200 convictions since 2006, when the first summonses were issued. A further 139 cases have been struck out, mainly because of general improvements. This part of the service is small but intensive. It aims to ensure the right of children to education is vindicated. I have spoken about education outside recognised schools.

I would like to speak about the priorities for the board. Under the legislation, the board has a responsibility to provide guidelines to schools and develop school attendance strategies. That is in train and will be completed this year. It will be very helpful to schools because it will clarify roles, give descriptions of good practice and be of practical support to teachers and schools.

As I said earlier, the implementation of the integrated service framework is the integration of those three services. The title is very strong namely, One Child, One Team, One Plan. It uses resources as efficiently and effectively as possible. There is one outcomes framework. In other words, school completion, home-school and educational welfare officers will be able to measure the impact their service is having, not just the amount of work they are doing but the impact and outcomes it is having. For example, an outcome might be finding a place for a child who is out of school and has no school place. That is a very positive outcome. There are also qualitative outcomes. Early intervention and resolving or breaking a cycle of non-attendance by a family would be an example of a very positive outcome.

As a result of the reduction in numbers in the public sector, there has been a reduction in numbers in the educational welfare service. A reconfiguration of that service is required. That will take place this year and will be a priority.

I have never worked in a service in which there was less demand than resources to meet it. Prioritisation of service is inevitable and a fact of life even before our current economic circumstances. In this case it is even more important that we prioritise those children who are most at risk of leaving school and review it on a constant basis. Part of how we do so is to use the data we have with schools and have good relationships with schools in terms of getting the information.

This year we want to continue to develop and imbed the national attendance awards. Children respond to praise as we all do, and promoting good behaviour is as important as identifying and criticising under-performance. Some children have superb attendance records so it is important to promote it.

I referred earlier to reviewing the guidelines and the assessment of education outside recognised schools. This involves children in non-recognised schools and those educated at home. The guidelines were put together in 2003 and we have learned a huge amount since then about that service. The guidelines will be reviewed this year.

There is a need for a review of school completion. That will be in the context of the reduction in money over the next three years for that service. We have to make sure the reductions are making it most efficient and are in the areas which have least impact on front-line services.

The priority will be maintaining the strong links with the child welfare service. There is a strong association between poor school attendance and child welfare problems. That was evident in the child death reviews published in the last month where a significant number of children who died were either in care or known to the State and had either poor school attendance or had dropped out of school completely. We must also maintain a strong engagement with the education system. I am referring to the education partners. For educational welfare to work well it has to be well connected to schools.

Leadership and the management of change may sound obvious. The change is an inevitable part of services now. Into the future we will be working with less resources. It is a big challenge to continue to meet our statutory obligations in that climate. The biggest potential in this area is in the integration of the three services whereby there can be a more streamlined and integrated approach.

The transition to the new CEO is also a challenge. The CEO will be leaving and the Department has sought sanction from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for the filling of the post. The transition organisation will be a priority for me. As regards maintaining the strong links with education in schools, I started my career as a teacher and spent the first ten years in a classroom so I have practical experience and I know the impact of poor school attendance on children and on teachers.

In terms of maintaining the strong links with child welfare services, I have spent a great deal of my life working in the HSE and the national education board. I know the impact and the relationship between poor school attendance and child welfare.

My view on the outcome of the review of the future location of the NEWB is that the task force report recommended that the NEWB would move to the new child and family support agency. That is being reviewed separately by the Department and the Minister will consider the outcome. In my view the NEWB straddles both education and welfare and it matters less where it lives. What is really important is the connections it has with both education and child services. Sustaining and implementing the integration process is critical. The international evidence is that it takes five years to fully implement something. Internationally we pay poorer attention than we should do to implementation. We need to keep our eye on that ball. We have put three years work into that service and the next two years will be critical. That integration process is public sector reform in practice. This is what the Government means when it talks about public sector reform.

I have included two pieces on my experience and skillset regarding this job. I am a clinical psychologist by profession and I started my career as a teacher. I have worked for the last 25 to 30 years in services for children and families working on the ground and managing those services. I have been the director of services for children and families in the HSE north east. I am also a former CEO and director of educational welfare services in the NEWB. Most recently I was the director of services in the Centre for Effective Services. That is a small all-island organisation whose job is to connect evidence and research to make practice better and to inform good policy so policy and practice are evidence-based. That is helpful in terms of the work of the NEWB. My skills are proven leadership and service delivery across a number of organisations. Not many people work across either professional silos or organisational silos. I have experience across education, health and social services. I am able to see the work through a number of lenses. I have significant senior management experience, particularly in the statutory sector. I understand the pressures and the obligations and the regulatory frameworks around statutory services. I have also extensive experience and expertise in applying evidence-based approaches to my work.

I thank the committee for its attention.

I thank Ms Doherty for her insightful, informative and significant presentation.

Go raibh maith agat. I welcome Ms Doherty and thank her for her presentation. I will be brief as other members of the committee have more knowledge of this area than me. I welcome Ms Doherty's reference to the fact of prioritising the promotion of attendance and of early intervention. We all accept that in this area, as in many others, early intervention is essential. What practical measures on a priority basis are we speaking about?

There were changes which took place in 2009 regarding the home liaison, school completion and the Traveller visiting teacher services. Three years on have those services bedded down? What has been the experience in adding these services to the remit of the NEWB? Reference was made in some of the documentation to a new service model for 2012-13. What exactly is that model? There is talk of an amalgamation of the service with the child and family support agency shortly. What effect will that amalgamation have on the board, how will that integration take place and what effect will it have on the services being provided? On the legal issues and the number of summonses, Ms Doherty stated there had been approximately 200 convictions. What does a conviction mean in this area and is it worthwhile seeking convictions?

I thank Ms Doherty for her presentation. With regard to the figure given for the number of pupils missing 20 days or more per annum, this amounts to approximately 13% or 14% and the comparable figures for Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom have been provided. Do we have any of the comparable figures for Europe? I know the education structures in those countries are slightly different, but I would like to know how we compare in the overall European context. There is also an issue with regard to the growth in the number of children attending primary school. This growth will continue over the next couple of years because our birth rate has risen dramatically in the past number of years. We must plan for that as the increase will mean more demand on the existing services. What needs to be done to deal with that?

I want to touch on an issue of concern with which I have become involved. This concerns one of three centres called life centres, which deals with approximately 30 students from the ages of 12 to 18 who have dropped out of school. The only funding we receive from the Department is €47,500 for the year and the VEC supplies hours. I raised the matter in an Adjournment debate recently in the Seanad and was surprised to hear the inaccurate information that had been supplied to the Minister on the issue. He was advised there were only 12 or 14 students in the centre, although there are over 30. Six of the children had sat the applied leaving certificate and eight had sat the junior certificate; that information was available to the Department, so I was surprised the information given to the Minister was so inaccurate. In the centre with which I am involved, approximately 18 qualified teachers not in employment work on a voluntary basis providing one-to-one assistance. How will centres like this, which obviously fill a gap, be supported in the future? Many of these children have dropped out of school because they have no support from parents. Some of them have a drug or drink problem, but progress is being made because they are getting a one-to-one service. How are we to deal with this issue for the future? The Christian Brothers provide approximately €90,000 per annum for the centre with which I am involved, but I understand that will finish at the end of this year. How can we continue to cater for the people attending the centre? Is Ms Doherty familiar with this centre and is it on her agenda?

I am not familiar with the work of the National Educational Welfare Board, but it sounds very worthwhile. What is the total number of staff in the agency, what is its total budget and what is the breakdown of front-line staff to administrative staff? Is there any information available on trends in truancy? Truancy may not be the right word, but is there any information available on the trend in defaulting on school attendance over the past decade? Is the problem getting bigger or smaller?

Ms Nuala Doherty

I will do my best to deal with all of those questions. I already mentioned some of the practical measures with regard to promoting school attendance, such as creating positive links early on with parents, making schools welcoming places for parents to visit, providing information on how to prepare children for and keep them in school and attendance awards. These all promote a positive approach. The development of school attendance strategies will also help schools in a practical way to develop a promotional aspect to attendance.

A question was asked about whether the integration project is bedded down. Significant work has been done on this and I pay tribute to the board and the executive in this regard. However, it will take time. The planning and piloting has been done and full implementation of the new service model will begin in the school year 2012-13, an important year for this work. That model will ensure there is one plan and one team for the child. The one plan determines the approach to retaining or getting the child back in school. The decision has not yet been taken with regard to the amalgamation of the NEWB with the child and family support agency. If and when it is taken, we will need to think carefully about it. There are real pluses with regard to the NEWB having direct access to and being in the same agency as mental health professionals, public health nurses and social workers because of the strong links that are necessary in this regard. The challenge will be to maintain the integration work that has been started.

Can that challenge be met?

Ms Nuala Doherty

It can. Once it is identified and carefully planned for, it can be met.

On the issue of convictions, the Act allows for a fine or a prison sentence, or both. The fine can be up to €675. International evidence is mixed as to whether this is an effective method to get children back to school. However, the NEWB only takes a case when it feels it is in the child's best interest and where it will have a chance of returning a child to school. This is a serious matter and some parents have been convicted and sent to prison.

On the question of comparable figures for children missing 20 or more school days per annum, figures are gathered differently internationally so obtaining an international comparison can be tricky. In Ireland, we collect the figures irrespective of whether absences are authorised. Therefore, included among the 111,000 days missed, we have the figures for a number of children who have been legitimately sick. It would not be long before a child with an illness would miss 20 days of school, but that child's attendance would not be of concern. Therefore, the number of unauthorised absences is much lower than the total number of absences, but we do not distinguish between them in our legislation. Teachers signal to us when they are concerned about attendance.

With regard to the life centre, I am aware from previous experience of the life centre and of many other alternative education centres. The policy of the State is for children to be in school, but the reality of life is that some children do not fit into school. That is the challenge for us. In the current economic environment, this poses an even greater challenge. A number of these centres do excellent work in supporting children with complex problems connected to education and learning and their work is very valuable. We do not hold the purse strings for these centres in the NEWB, nor have we the budget for them. However, we link closely with those services and alternative projects.

I am surprised that there was such a distortion between the Department's figures and the figures of the centre. Has there been a sharing of information?

Ms Nuala Doherty

It is probably from the Department of Education and Skills but we can check that out.

There are 72 educational welfare officers. That is broken down into 57 educational welfare officers, 12 senior managers and three regional managers. They are front line practitioners and they work cases. The sanction is for three additional educational welfare officers.

I was not quite sure about the Deputy's question on the budget. The budget for a home school is held in the schools, because they are employed by the Department of Education and Skills, so that €25 million is with the schools. The budget for school completion is with the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. The €9.6 million is with the NEWB for the educational welfare officers. The breakdown is quite tight on administrative and other sections. There is a very lean administrative section, but nevertheless there is a need to employ people in HR, financial, IT and communications sections for an organisation like the NEWB to sustain itself and meet its regulatory requirements.

You say you have been given permission to appoint three extra educational welfare officers. When do you hope to do that?

Ms Nuala Doherty

The process is under way.

Will those posts be filled by the start of the new school year?

Ms Nuala Doherty

I do not want to give a commitment on which I cannot deliver but it will take place through the Public Appointments Commission and it will be an open competition.

Does the board have a public relations contract with anyone?

Ms Nuala Doherty

My understanding is that it does not but I can double check that for the Senator.

I thank Ms Doherty for coming in today. I look forward to her taking over this role because her enthusiasm and her obvious expertise is a credit and is kind of infectious. I am not sure if my question is relevant but perhaps she can tease it out for me. I suggest that the NEWB gets most of its reports from schools on children who are registered there and who do not show up. Is the NEWB responsible for children who I would consider to be in limbo when it has a difference of opinion on the suitability of a placement with the NCSE? I have a child who has a disability and who has been offered unsuitable places by the NCSE and who has refused to take up those places. That child is in limbo and has not gone to school since last September. Does the NEWB get reports from the Department or the NCSE? Are they self-regulating or is that child going to remain in limbo and not be regulated by anybody for as long as the adults continue to argue over what is and what is not a suitable place for her? She is not unique; there are hundreds of children in her position. Do they come within the remit of the NEWB?

I thank Ms Doherty for her presentation. I come from a community and a constituency with one of the largest number of people leaving school at an early age. That has been well documented. Ms Doherty said there would be a review during the year of the situation involving those people in private schools outside the figure of 8,292. What will that entail? In respect of the 200 convictions, what action is taken when that happens? Is it only a fine or is it something else? In respect of expelling children from school, for how long are those expulsions? What happens to those children when they are not in the classroom environment? What monitoring do they receive while they are not in the education system?

What links does the NEWB have with community projects that deal with early school leavers? In my own constituency, there are several projects which deal with many early-learning people. Some of them do the leaving certificate applied examinations or the junior certificate, but are we creating another tier in the education system for those children who I believe should be dealt with in the classroom and not ostracised in the community? That is a stigma attached to many children in my area because the education system has not been able to deal with them and look at their educational needs. We are putting them out into community projects and some of them feel more isolated than they should. Keeping them in the education system would be a better way to go. What views does Ms Doherty have on that?

I thank Ms Doherty for coming here today. The function of the NEWB is to ensure that every child between the ages of six and 16 receives a certain minimum education. There was a jump of 50,000 in the number of children in primary schools between 2005 and 2010. That seems to be a very high figure, while there were also 9,000 more children in post-primary schools in 2010 than in 2005. I believe the NEWB has 251 full-time staff, working with 464 primary schools and 224 post-primary schools. Is that enough?

The most concerning figure from today's presentation is that primary school pupils miss an average of 11 days per year, while post-primary pupils miss an average of 13 days per year. How is the NEWB going to combat these? Over 111,000 pupils miss over 20 days per year. That is very high. What is the NEWB process for home visits? Are many home visits carried out to follow up on these children missing school?

There were 581 summonses issued to parents since 2006. I have always believed that a parent was the most important part of a child's life, so I am concerned about the figure. Can Ms Doherty go into it in greater detail? Deputy Healy asked a question earlier about the 200 convictions. Are these convictions against students? Can Ms Doherty elaborate on it? What is being done with home education and unrecognised schools? Are many children getting educated at home? Are the parents not sending them out? What engagement does the NEWB have with the DEIS schools?

I thank Ms Doherty for her presence today. The remit of the NEWB under the Act is to deal with children between the ages of six and 16. I published an amendment to that Act recently, suggesting that any child aged four or five who is enrolled in the school should come under the remit of the Act, because we cannot have early intervention unless we can intervene when a child is enrolling in the school. Poor attendance patterns are often embedded in a child's experience, so by the time they hit six or seven years of age, when the welfare officer can intervene, it may be too late. In my own experience, attendance patterns say a lot about the family and the aspirations of that family. What does Ms Doherty feel about this amendment becoming law? At the other end of the scale, there are 17 or 18 year old pupils missing any amount of days who still do not come under the remit of the Act. Should we have a stipulation that anybody enrolled in a recognised school should come under the remit of the Act? The Act will work for anybody within the ages of six to 16, but not for anybody outside it.

I wonder how the figure of 20 days was arrived at, because 20 days is almost a target for some parents in many schools. It is a comfort zone. If they stay within the 20 days, they are fine. If they go outside it, that is where the problem arises. In my own experience, a child could have 12 or 13 days in June and knows there is a comfort zone of 20 days, so it is difficult to encourage him or her to be in attendance every single day. Is there potential to reduce that number of days? I am interested in hearing about the NEWB's interaction with the school completion programme and the home-school liaison service. Also, given the importance of mental health issues at both primary and secondary level, how does it intend to address that? Am I right in saying that the number of expulsions at post-primary level is rising? If so, how does Ms Doherty suggest we could address this?

I welcome Ms Doherty. I echo the point raised by Deputy Doherty, which is a matter of concern throughout the country, and I look forward to the response.

I wish to address the matter of the number of pupils who are missing from school for more than the threshold of 20 days. While I accept that there is good reason for some children to be missing, the fact that approximately one in seven of the school population is absent for more than 20 days per year is worrying, given that 20 days amounts to one tenth of the school year or four full weeks. A lot can happen in four weeks in school. As Deputy Ó Ríordáin has said, we should examine that threshold to determine whether it is too high.

At the moment the Minister for Social Protection is examining ways to reform the child benefit system. Would it make sense to tie child benefit in with school attendance? That would provide an incentive for parents to ensure that children attend school regularly. It would also deal with the situation in which €36 million per annum is being paid out for non-existent children, thereby helping to reduce fraud. Has the NEWB considered that type of incentive, which could help to reduce the overall cost to the Exchequer of child benefit, as well as providing a genuine incentive to parents to ensure their children have full attendance?

I welcome Ms Doherty. I am impressed by her curriculum vitae and her background in education. It is important to recognise the valuable role the board plays in education. It specifically deals with children who were born on the wrong side of the tracks, many of whom have grandparents who are illiterate and, in some cases, parents who are only semi-literate. Ms Doherty cited a figure of 0.05% for children who fall out of the education system, which on paper seems small. However, as Ms Doherty knows only too well, these are children whose families have multiple problems. When there is hardship in a family, education falls down the priority list and the family becomes concerned only with survival. It is important that the valuable work that the board does in trying to keep these children, who often have limited life skills, in the education system is supported.

It is not surprising, given that we live in one of the most class-ridden societies in Europe, that the State can fork out €500 million to private schools but cannot find a pittance to keep children who were born on the wrong side of the tracks in the education system. Were it not for organisations such as Citywise in south-west Dublin, many children in that area would take a different life path. That path is a very unpleasant one - everyone here knows what I mean - but that is what happens, historically, in working-class communities. If children are not in school studying for their leaving certificate, they find other activities in which to engage. The NEWB is trying to ensure that does not happen. It is for this reason that the work of the board is so valuable and we, as politicians, must ensure that its work is sufficiently funded so that these children get the same opportunity as middle-class children, or at least get some opportunity to learn, to be literate and to take on a career.

Thank you, Deputy. I ask Ms Doherty to respond.

Ms Nuala Doherty

I will do my best to deal with the questions raised thematically.

I agree with Deputy Maloney's comments. Education is a passport for children and an absolute leveller. Sometimes there is no other way out of poverty for children except through education. In that respect, it is vitally important.

Two Deputies mentioned children with disabilities and special needs, which is an extraordinarily complex area. It is enormously difficult for parents, who spend a lot of time trying to do the best by their children. On the other side, there is the challenge for schools in trying to accommodate children's needs. The NEWB works very closely with the National Council for Special Education in trying to get school placements for children with disabilities. I agree that it sometimes takes far too long, and often there is no neat solution. Sometimes these children are given home tuition for periods of time, which can be really helpful in some cases but not in others. The important point is that the resolution of problems happens when agencies work together and take responsibility for their part in the process.

That does not happen quickly enough. We can all give examples of parents whose children are not in school and who see no joined-up thinking on how to get them into school. There is no inter-agency or multidisciplinary approach to finding a solution.

Ms Nuala Doherty

Yes, and that is part of the reason we need a new child and family support agency - so that people work outside their agency box. I can certainly say that the NEWB carries its weight in that regard. We have good and highly developed protocols between ourselves and the National Council for Special Education and we work together to resolve those very tricky, complex problems.

What do we say to the parents who have no school places for their children right now and have not had one since last October?

Ms Nuala Doherty

In such circumstances, an arrangement is made for home tuition so that the children are receiving one-to-one instruction. It is not enough, I agree, but they at least receive home tuition. Solutions are eventually found and while it often takes too long, the processes must be worked out. If one is appealing a decision there is a regulated timeframe in the process which must be allowed for. If the refusal to enrol is upheld, one must move on to the next school. That takes time but the processes are in place to be used.

I am sorry to interrupt, but I have another question. I will preface this by saying that it is no reflection on the NEWB. How many reports has the board received from the National Council for Special Education or the Department of Education and Skills of parents who have refused to accept places for their children in schools that the Department deems suitable but the parents do not? In those circumstances, the parents are deemed to be refusing to send their children to school. How many such reports has the board received?

Ms Nuala Doherty

I do not have those figures to hand but I would be happy to follow up on that matter with the Deputy.

I do not have strong views either way on the question of whether children under six and over 16 should be included under the remit of the Act. However, it is important that if we pass any legislation, its aims are achievable, and that we do not have laws on our Statute Book that we cannot implement. At present, there is nothing to stop the service from working with children under six. I absolutely agree with the Deputy. If a pattern of non-attendance begins when a child is four years old it is unlikely to be resolved when the child is ten or 12 years old. One thing we learned is that children do not fall out of school overnight. They slowly drift out of school over years. This may not be the question Deputy Ó Ríordáin asked, but I would prioritise children in the infant classes. If a pattern is set at that stage it is a poor omen. Educational welfare officers and home school liaison officers stitch a very strong link to families and homes to see what the issue is and to try to resolve it.

Home visits are critical. The aim of a home visit is to find out what the problem is, how the parents see it and how we can resolve it. Some of the causes of poor school attendance lie in the home and some in school. Some lie within the child. A committee member mentioned mental health problems. If a child has a mental health problem and is a school refuser or is anxious about going to school that must be dealt with in a particular way. The child needs assistance. The aim of home visits is to make an assessment about what is going on and how we can resolve it and to make a plan with the family and the child to get the child back to school.

It was I who asked about home visits. My main concern is that there have been 581 summonses against parents. Is one of the purposes of a home visit to see the parents and to find out why the children are not going to school?

Ms Nuala Doherty

Home visits are a routine part of work. If a child is out of school, the school does not know what is going on. Someone has to go to the home and see what the situation is, how things are and how we can resolve them.

Deputy Fitzpatrick also asked about convictions. Convictions are not against children. It is parents who are brought to court. It is a fair and legitimate defence that a parent has done his or her best to return a child to school. That is a legitimate defence, under the Act.

With regard to the 20 days period in the Act, we would have to go back to the people who crafted the Act for an explanation of it. I do not know where 20 days came from. I share Deputy Ó Ríordáin's view that it can be unhelpful. I do not know the background to the measure. I know that some people take licence. The schools, however, operate a zero tolerance policy with regard to non-attendance and make it a requirement to be in school every day. We have got ourselves into some hot water in the NEWB on the subject of school holidays, but I would not even go there. Children should be in school every day.

Deputy Byrne spoke about the community. Again, this is linked to children who are not able to stay in mainstream school. It is Government policy to keep children in mainstream school until the age of 18. Community arrangements are often vital in ensuring children get continued support in their learning. Eventually, I would like to see a feedback loop into schools so that community arrangements are not separate and so that we try all the time to reconnect children with their education. It is not okay for children to be stigmatised.

Does Ms Doherty have statistics for the number of children who, having come out of school at 15 or 16 and gone into a project, go back into mainstream education?

Ms Nuala Doherty

I do not have statistics on it but------

I would like Ms Doherty to have that information. It would be very important. Going on my own experience, I would say the figure is very small.

Ms Doherty, I return to your point that education is the passport out of poverty and link it to Deputy Byrne's question. I thought the leaving certificate applied would be taken predominately by bottom-stream classes, because these are the students who are at risk and are failing to fulfil their potential, although they have huge potential. The leaving certificate applied is one of the best things we have in education. I am wondering about the Youthreach approach and a different type of model. I share the Hillary Clinton view that it takes a village to raise a child. If the parents of a family are in difficulty we have an obligation to support and assist the family. Deputy Byrne's question and the legislation put forward by Deputy Ó Ríordáin are practical tools to make it easier to complete the circle.

Ms Nuala Doherty

That is really important. Some areas have taken a community approach to school attendance. The work done in Ballymun has been really excellent, because people are saying school attendance is the responsibility of everyone in the community and not just of schools. Everyone is to ensure that a child goes to school. That work has shown some really positive results.

We have been speaking about community involvement. I was involved in a project in Cork for 12 or 13 years. The project was funded by FÁS and worked with young people between the ages of 15 and 18. Many of the young people who came to us had problems with literacy and numeracy and had dropped out of the school system at 12 or 13 years of age. A large number were referred to us by gardaí because they were going down the wrong road. We did a survey of participants five years after leaving the project to see how they were doing. Over 70% were in full-time employment and some were even self-employed. Community projects do work if they are structured properly. That scheme was well funded by FÁS and we had dedicated staff who worked very hard with the people involved. Projects of that sort can work when the effort is made.

What year was that?

I was involved from 1994 until 2007. The project was based in Blackpool in Cork and 50 young people were involved at any one time. They would spend four or five months in education followed by two weeks work placement, two further months in education, work placement for four weeks then back to education and a final work placement of six weeks. We were also able to help them to get jobs. We selected a particular year-group and surveyed them five years after they had left the project. That work was done by a graduate student so there was an advantage for the person who was doing the research and an advantage for us.

Can Ms Doherty tell us what will happen to the review of private schools and what will it entail? How long do expulsions last and what happens to children who are expelled, or put out of the classroom? Who monitors what is happening to them during their expulsion?

Ms Nuala Doherty

The review of non-recognised schools will be concluded by the end of this year. It will deal with how children are registered with the board and the standards for registration. Individual children as well as schools are registered. Those assessment guidelines were developed in 2003 and they needed to be reviewed. The Department of Education and Skills, the National Council for Curriculum Assessment, the National Educational Welfare Board and the Department of Children and Youth Affairs are represented on the review group. A very robust lens will be used.

The board of management of any school must notify the NEWB of its intention to expel a child. It is a very serious issue. Before a child is expelled the board of management must notify the NEWB. There are then 20 days within which the NEWB must try to convene a meeting and find a solution. If that is not forthcoming, the NEWB will support the parents to find another school place. Children who are expelled are an absolute priority for the NEWB. They are an at-risk group and need to be in school. If that takes time, which it does, home tuition is applied for and is forthcoming from the Department of Education and Skills in cases where children have been expelled.

I thank Ms Doherty and Ms Hazlett for their attendance. I wish Ms Doherty well in her tenure as chairperson of the National Educational Welfare Board. The message must be emphasised that school attendance is not optional, that it is a fact of life. We should not condone the behaviour of parents who decide to take children out of school in order to go on holidays or for whatever other reason.

Sitting suspended at 11.20 a.m. and resumed at 11.22 a.m.
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