Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage díospóireacht -
Thursday, 11 May 2023

Planning and Development Regulations: Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage

An Cathaoirleach

Today we will meet in two sessions to consider the Planning and Development Act (Exempted Development) Regulations, dealing with bus poles, bus stops, gas infrastructure, street furniture, reverse vending machines and temporary weather radar systems. We are joined by the Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Noonan, and his officials, who are very welcome to the committee today. The draft Planning and Development Act (Exempted Development) Regulations and an explanatory note have been circulated to us.

Members are aware of the obligations regarding privilege. For those who are within the confines of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege. If they are attending the meeting from outside the confines of Leinster House, they may have limited privilege. Contributors are asked not to refer to any person or entity outside the Houses in any way as to make him, her or it identifiable. If I issue a direction in that regard, they must comply with it.

I call the Minister of State.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Malcolm Noonan)

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to present to him and the committee today these three sets of proposed planning regulations. The three sets of regulations consist of the Planning and Development (Exempted Development) Regulations 2023, the Planning and Development Act 2000 (Exempted Development) (No. X) Regulations 2023, and the Planning and Development (Street Furniture Fees) Regulations 2023.

The two exempted development regulations propose to amend provisions in the Planning and Development Regulations 2001, which are the principal regulations, concerning development that is exempt from the requirement to obtain planning permission. This concerns the installation of reverse vending machines and bus poles. The street furniture regulation proposes to waive the fee for tables and chairs for outdoor dining, similar to the waiver that was approved in previous years. Under the Planning Acts, each House of the Oireachtas is required to approve draft regulations relating to exempted development and street furniture fees by way of positive resolution before they can be signed into law. The consideration of the draft regulations by the committee here today is part of that approval process.

I will speak first to the Planning and Development (Exempted Development) Regulations 2023. They insert a new definition of “reverse vending machine” into the principal regulations, which is defined as a machine for the purpose of accepting in-scope bottles and in-scope containers, reimbursing deposits for each item accepted, and retaining the items accepted for collection, within the meaning of the Separate Collection (Deposit Return Scheme) Regulations 2021. In addition, the regulations provide an exemption for the installation, alteration, repair or replacement of reverse vending machines, RVMs, in certain circumstances in locations near shops, GAA clubs and community centres. These regulations will support the introduction of Ireland’s national deposit return scheme and the planned go-live date for consumers is February 2024.

The second set of regulations, the Planning and Development Act 2000 (Exempted Development) (No. X) Regulations 2023, propose to insert a new "Class 30A" into Part 1 of Schedule 2 of the principal Regulations to provide for:

The carrying out of development consisting of the removal, construction, erection or placing by or on behalf of the National Transport Authority, a public transport operator (as defined in the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008) or a local authority of:

- bus poles or bus pole signs in connection with a public passenger transport service (as defined in the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008).

This regulation will assist the roll-out of bus stop infrastructure to support the expansion and use of public transport. Local authorities will maintain control of the locating of bus poles under the Road Traffic Act 1961.

The third set of regulations, the Planning and Development (Street Furniture Fees) Regulations 2023, propose to waive the section 254 street furniture license fee of €125 per table for the remainder of 2023 for tables and chairs associated with outdoor dining. This is a repeat of the waiver applied in 2021 and 2022 to assist in reducing the cost burden for hotels, restaurants, public houses and other establishments where food is sold for consumption. We all recognise that businesses are facing increasing pressures in the current economic climate and this street furniture licence fee waiver is an acknowledgement of the difficulties faced by the hospitality sector.

To conclude, I commend these three sets of draft regulations to the committee. The approval of these sets of regulations, which support Government policy in the relevant areas, will assist in the delivery of public transport infrastructure, recycling infrastructure and will also help to reduce costs for the hospitality sector. Finally, when these draft regulations are subsequently approved by positive resolution of both Houses of the Oireachtas, as required under the Planning and Development Act, they will come into force as soon as they are signed by the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. If approved by the Oireachtas, it will be the intention of the Minister to sign the regulations into law at the earliest opportunity. The committee should note that it is the also his intention to sign the Planning and Development (Exempted Development) Regulations 2023 on RVMs himself and the draft SI laid before the Oireachtas will be edited accordingly to allow this. I look forward to discussion with the committee on these proposed draft regulations and my officials and I will endeavour to answer any questions that the committee members may have.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State. I will go now to Members, the first of whom is Senator Fitzpatrick. We will address all three regulations in one go.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I thank the Minister of State and all who are in attendance here today. We appreciate their time. These are three sensible regulations and I am happy to support them. I am delighted to see them being brought forward. It is always about the small things, both in life and in politics. These might seem like minor interventions, but they are really important. I thank the Minister of State and everyone who has worked on bringing forward the regulations.

With regard to street furniture and restaurants, restaurants and other businesses already have to maintain the public path where they place this street furniture. It is, therefore, a sensible move to remove this cost from them. I welcome this. I am presuming that all the local authorities are on board with this. Have they made any representations to the Department or have they raised any concerns with the Department about any potential financial impact on their standing? I stress that while we hope this will support the hospitality sector, we hope that those who frequent the restaurants and bars will also benefit from any cost reductions. That would be welcome.

Bus stops and bus poles are really contentious issues. Bus shelters are welcome infrastructure on our streets, particularly in the city but also in the countryside. We are all trying to use public transport more but if there is not even a shelter in place, this actively discourages people from taking the bus. These regulations, therefore, are really welcome. Maybe Mr. Creegan can answer my next question. Local authorities will maintain the control of the location. How will that work in practice? Will that go through a local authority tagging process or the traffic advisory group process? What is intended there?

The actual location of the bus stop is often a really important and contentious issue. With BusConnects, there has been much debate in the city about how the new bus stops will operate. I ask Mr. Creegan to address how that will be worked out in practice.

The reverse vending machines to be introduced next February are very welcome, but where will they be located? Who is going to put them in place and maintain them? Do we have any estimate of what the impact will be on littering as a consequence? Those are my questions; they can be taken in whatever order.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I thank the Senator. The officials might come in on the BusConnects issue. The Senator's first question was about street furniture. I thank her for welcoming the measures. They are very positive, and the progress we are making with the circular economy is also fantastic. The financial impact on local authorities is minimal. It is spread across all 31 local authorities. The fees gathered were around €590,000 in 2021, so it is not really significant and we should note central government has supported local authorities with additional funding throughout the pandemic. We should also consider the positive impact of having increased activity and footfall in towns, which benefits all of our retail. That, in turn, is a benefit in the context of local authority rates because it keeps premises open. I was speaking to a local restaurateur in Kilkenny this morning about this, and they feel very positive about it. We have seen a transformation in our public spaces since the Covid pandemic, and we need to continue that trajectory. Local authorities are being progressive, but we need to reconfigure spaces and give them back to people and that is what we are trying to do in supporting this as well.

The NTA might come in on BusConnects and the bus shelters.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

The bus shelters are not exempted in this. It is the bus poles that are being exempted.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Okay.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

The approval process differs between local authorities. I am not quite sure what they do internally. When we are dealing with them, however, we usually liaise with a particular person whose role is to make a judgment on the bus stop locations and issue approval to us. That is the way it has been happening for a number of years. It is not a new process but one that is already in place. I am not sure whether local authorities bring it through their traffic advisory groups or not, but all authorities have a process in place at this stage.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I thank Mr. Creegan for the clarification; I was not aware. How are the bus shelters dealt with?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

We seek planning permission in most cases, especially where there is advertising involved, because that tends to be more controversial. In other cases, we have an agreement with the local authority where we do it in partnership and avail of an exemption under Part 8 to put in shelters in certain places, so it is a mixture.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Gabhaim buíochas le Mr. Creegan.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

The Senator's third question was on the reverse vending machines. Typically, these will be located in or close to retail outlets, at sports clubs and in public spaces. There is generally a specification around covering them, ensuring that they are not going to create noise and that they are not a nuisance due to people depositing materials around, as happens at bottle banks. There is no doubt that they will have a positive impact in the context of preventing littering. Coupled with the introduction of the deposit return scheme next year, which is going to be brought in with the large retailers, we will see people, including community groups, actively collecting bottles and cans in order to get revenue. That is what happens in countries where deposit return schemes are in place. It can only have a positive impact. People who litter sometimes litter anyway. Much of the litter on our streets is made up of plastic bottles and cans. These are valuable items, and it is only right that we have a deposit return scheme. The reverse vending machines will offer people the opportunity to bring them back and get revenue from them.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Will the Minister of State clarify who is actually going to provide the machines?

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I think they are provided by specific outlets.

Ms Bernie Kiely

I can come in there. The retailers will locate the machines themselves. They will buy the machines and install them.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Okay.

Ms Bernie Kiely

There are approximately 800 locations where there are larger retailers, so there will be a good distribution around the country. There will also be smaller retailers who have an option. It is the prerogative of the retailer.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

What are the economics of it? Does the machine pay for itself?

Ms Bernie Kiely

Yes, absolutely. There is a small fee earned per item returned, but it is obviously an attraction and through the footfall increase it will increase business as well. It will be another reason to go to the shop.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Great.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

Countries where these schemes are in place typically have recycling rates around 90%. That is the target we are aiming for. We are very good at recycling here and have good rates, but this will bring us up to the next level.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I have a quick final question. Is it glass, plastic and cans?

Ms Bernie Kiely

It is plastic and cans.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

It is plastic and cans, but not glass. All right.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I thank everyone for their presentations. Everyone is in favour of bus stops, deposit return machines and street furniture, but the trick is how these are implemented and that is sometimes not as straightforward as we think. I have specific questions on the implementation of these measures and ensuring that they work right, because we are all broadly supportive of them.

Will the Minister of State indicate who has been consulted on the bringing forward of these regulations? I refer to local authorities but also other organisations that may have a concern, including those working with people with disabilities, visual impairments, etc. I also want to know the rationale for this. There is a reason the Government wants to do this. I think I can guess the answer, but it would be useful to have it on record what the Government hopes to gain from each of the three proposed exemptions.

There are a couple of tricky aspects. Some of the local authorities, while they agreed in principle with the street furniture moves during Covid, had concerns around issues such as insurance and insurance liability. I ask the Minister of State to speak to that. Street clutter is a huge problem in our city. If one goes down to the end of Molesworth Street or down to College Green, the issue is generally utility boxes rather than bus stops or other facilities, but to what extent have issues of street clutter been taken into consideration? The safety of the streets is a real problem, especially for people with visual impairments. I was on Duke Street recently. There is a high-profile restaurant there that has good street furniture. When it is being used, the restaurant cordons it off in a very safe way. When it is not in use, the stands for the umbrellas are left on the street. I witnessed a man in his 40s or 50s falling quite dramatically over one of these. A number of people, including me, went to assist him. He then went into the restaurant make a complaint. Will guidelines or a circular be issued to local authorities or businesses in order to ensure that this is dealt with in a safe manner, not just when the furniture is in use but also when it is not? It is important this is done in a way that addresses the requirements of people with visual impairments and those who use mobility scooters, etc.

I am a big fan of deposit return. It is good that despite resistance from some sections of industry, it is now becoming a reality. This is slightly off topic, but I am sure the Chair will indulge me. Why is glass not being included? We have significant problems with glass and public safety. If the young kids who, not knowing better, spend their time smashing glass understood they could make a small return by collecting it and depositing it, as we did as kids, it would be really positive. Is that something that may come down the line at a later point in time?

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I thank the Deputy for his questions. On the first question, I am not sure about the insurance issue and might ask one of the officials to come back to him on it. Obviously, it is public liability insurance. On the issues around people with disabilities, my reply is "Absolutely". The Department can issue further circulars and we do that regularly to local authorities anyway. Licensing would be subject to universal design guidelines. Most local authorities have access groups that have input into how streets are organised, street furniture, etc. It is important there is engagement at local authority level with local access groups. That is certainly the case in my local authority. There is the design manual for urban roads and streets as well. It was jointly prepared by the Departments of Transport and the Environment, Climate and Communications. There is a set of guidelines there for local authorities. On a licence-by-licence basis, they have the ability to assess the safety aspects of placing street furniture.

I note the points the Deputy is making specifically about utility boxes and the glut of street furniture generally that appears, sometimes because of necessity, but it is important that local authorities continue to try to keep streets clear and safe and ensure that tactile paving and all the requirements we need for people with visual impairments or various disabilities are catered for in our public spaces. I wholeheartedly agree with that.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

On guidance, could the issue of storage be included, if it is not included already? Again, when street furniture is being used generally, increasingly it is cordoned off and that is welcome but the guidance does not also refer to storage and ensuring that when it is not being used, that everything is stored inside or in an appropriately safe location. Can that be considered?

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

That is a fair point. It is something local authorities could and should be proactive on, in terms of issuing guidance to licence applicants on a case-by-case basis. That is really important. You have to assess these things. There are different street widths and footpath widths. In each case, the local authority will work with the premises owner to ensure that safety is given consideration.

On glass, we do have high collection rates for glass generally. When I was young, I would have brought back bottles to pubs or to local shops and it was a great source of revenue. There is a very high collection rate and a very high recycling rate for glass given that we have a good infrastructure of deposit banks across the country. A refund model is something that could be considered and it might add to that but the recycling rates are very good. It is typically not so good for plastic because the facilities are not there and that is why the scheme is being introduced.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Then on my first question as to with whom the Department had consulted in bringing forward these regulations, was it the Local Government Management Agency, LGMA, or ------

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I think all of those were consulted on this.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

And disability or visually impaired advocacy groups?

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

Again, I am not sure about that. I think that typically, disability organisations would be consulted with on this but I can come back to the Deputy on that.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Mr. Sheridan might know the answer.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

We are requesting that circulars and guidance to local authorities are adhered to. We are requesting that universal design guidelines are adhered to. Local authorities are very good at doing that. I have not replied on insurance. It is public liability.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank everyone for all the work they have done on the three pieces of information and regulations here. I have a couple of comments and one question. The reverse vending machines are so positive. They are a great move for the environment and for changing our culture around recycling. Many local shops in my constituency have expressed an interest in having these and some have started the process so they will be delighted to hear about this. Many of our sports clubs are already doing deposit returns scheme themselves. While this may be competition for them, at least it has engendered that culture among their kids and that is fantastic.

On street furniture, my local pubs, Kenny’s and Courtney’s in Lucan, have invested hugely in their outdoor areas. They have created fabulous new dining experiences for people and increased their footprint. What is great about these regulations is how we are supporting smaller businesses to do that, such as cafés. Some of the cafés in my area may have doubled their footprint through street furniture which is huge for them. Waiving fees to support them is a great way of enabling our small and medium enterprises to thrive but it is also a great way of helping our villages and community spirits to thrive because it adds to the hustle and bustle on a nice summer’s day particularly. It is great to hear that universal design guidelines are to the fore on that.

My question is on the bus stops and poles. I really welcome the move and I hope it makes it easier for the NTA to decide to route the W6 down Peamount Road. The removal of bus stops and poles is included in the regulations. Is that from the perspective of remove and upgrade or could the NTA and local authorities now decide to take away a bus stop without any consultation with the public?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

On the regulations around taking away a pole and replacing it, there might be occasion when the layout of an estate changes and the bus stop has to move from one road to another road. In all cases, it is the local authority which gives consent for that. Even for removal, it is a local authority decision in all cases.

Deputy Emer Higgins

But there would be no consultation carried out where the bus stop was being removed, where the local authority was removing it?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

It is outside the scope of the regulations but I think we recognise that removing a bus stop means removing a service, usually. We would not be doing that without consultation, as the Deputy will know from dealing with us.

Deputy Emer Higgins

Super. I thank Mr. Creegan.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I thank the Deputy for her positive comments on the regulations.

An Cathaoirleach

I will take the next slot. First on the reverse vending machines and the proposed class 42A. Part 1 of Schedule 2 states "No such structure shall be attached to the front wall of the building or erected forward of the front building line". I suspect that is so that you cannot put machines out where it would impede a footpath. However, if someone has a shop with sufficient forecourt and curtilage that is not in the public area, where there are parking spaces, for instance, would we be restricting someone from putting one on the front of their own premises where it does not act as an impediment?

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

Yes, it would require planning permission.

An Cathaoirleach

If someone wished to put it on the front of a premises.

Ms Bernie Kiely

I understand that it is for reasons of visual impact. The exemptions are trying to give people guidelines on what is exempt from planning. If it strays outside those parameters, someone can still do it but they will need planning permission because the visual impact will need to be assessed in those circumstances.

An Cathaoirleach

The external finishes of the reverse vending machine would also come into that too. That is something that will have to be considered in the planning. What kind of external finish does the Department envisage? Is it timber sheeting around them?

W

Ms Bernie Kiely

We have our planning expert here in Mr. O'Neill..

Mr. Paul O'Neill

The exemptions currently provide for a finish that is consistent with the existing building. It is for those reasons of visual impact that one would want a more consistent finish.

As for the structures themselves, the commercially-available ones come in a variety of finishes. It is prefabricated structures that can be finished in accordance with whatever structures are there. They can be rendered or one can have them in glass. There are options available to the operators or to the retailers to ensure that they can avail of the exemption but if they want to move outside that then, for good reason, that is, for visual impact etc., you would want to assess them in a planning application.

An Cathaoirleach

So for clarity, if someone had a terrace of shopfronts, the only option available to the operator of one of those shops would be to place the machine inside or to seek planning permission to place it forward of the shopfront, provided it does not impede the footpath?

Mr. Paul O'Neill

That is correct. Or, if you were placing it in the rear yard, you could have an internal receptacle and the back-of-house processing could be done in a structure in the rear yard which would be exempt.

An Cathaoirleach

So there is scope for a receptacle and then the machine would be on the other side.

Mr. Paul O'Neill

Yes. In the shop, you could place the bottle into a receptacle.

Ms Bernie Kiely

It also be useful to understand that one does not have to have a reverse vending machine. You can take bottles back in a bag, if that suits a place better because, say, they are a small business without space for a reverse vending machine. That option is also there.

An Cathaoirleach

On bus stop poles, I think there is some technical guidance on where you place a bollard or a pole or structure on a footpath so that the vehicle sweep does not catch it. Often there might be a narrow footpath and they are placed in it so that it is narrows the path again. Is there any guidance on the erection of bus poles so that they are off the back side of the footpath or is there a requirement that they are most prominent, even where it impedes access on the footpath?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

There is generally understood guidance out there that they are set back around 600 mm from the kerb edge. However, our practice over recent years has been that if the footpath is less than 2.5 m wide put it at the back of the footpath, because in that way it does not impede people using the footpath and getting the full effect with-----

An Cathaoirleach

Put it at the back of the footpath.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

Exactly. The new style of poles with large flags at the top allow us to do that in a way that the smaller poles previously did not. However, in the event that this regulation is passed, we are producing a guidance note on bus stop installation for local authorities and ourselves.

An Cathaoirleach

That is great. I thank Mr. Creegan. I move on now to the tables and chairs fees. Is this just an extension of what we passed in 2020 and 2021, or are there any other changes to it?

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

There no changes to it. It is the same.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay, that is grand. It was acceptable to us then, and it is acceptable now. I thank the Minister of State, and I move now to Deputy Cian O'Callaghan.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Like everyone else, I want to welcome the broad thrust of this, especially with regard to the deposit return for reverse vending machines. It is very important regarding what we need to do on the environment and the circular economy. I am very supportive of it. There is one particular area I want to ask about. Could the Minister of State talk us through the safeguards and the regulations around these with regard to advertising, both for the reverse vending machines and the street furniture?

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

As far as I know, regarding the street furniture, the local authority can be prescriptive about specific advertising, be it for drink products or whatever. Generally, the advertising has to be restricted to advertising the premises, but that is not always the case. Sometimes the coverings or the surrounds are supplied by drinks companies, and I know there are issues there with drinks advertising in public places. That is a big, broader issue.

On the reverse vending machines, I am not so sure. This states that advertising signage, or other advertising material, shall not be affixed to or placed at the reverse vending machine, or a storage area containing such a machine, other than for the purpose of identifying the machine, warning signs for the purpose of protecting persons, providing instructions regarding the use of the machine, and providing the contact details of the operator, manager or owner of the machine. That is fairly clear.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Yes, that is perfectly reasonable, but what is the general rule for street furniture?

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

Advertising is not permitted.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

One can advertise the name of the venue, café or restaurant-----

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

As far as I am aware.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

-----but not commercial products beyond that, and that is what is allowed within the scope.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

Yes.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Okay. That is very important, because one of the things about street furniture is that not only are there benefits for the local economy and businesses, but it actually improves the public realm full stop. It gets more people out on the street, and that helps to curb issues around antisocial behaviour, or people not feeling safe. All of those are positives, and the transformation around that is very welcome.

I visited Dún Laoghaire a couple of summers back, and I have obviously been there since, but the transformation in Dún Laoghaire as a result of what the local authority has done in the public realm with regard to planting and its own street furniture has hugely changed the main street and really lifted it. It is a really good example that should be followed by other local authorities. These exemptions are very welcome, but it does not need to be left to commercial premises to do this. Local authorities can take a lot of initiatives to improve streetscapes and the public realm.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I agree wholeheartedly, and where we have positioned the urban regeneration and development fund, URDF, funding and other funding to support local authorities to make that big change in public spaces is critically important. We have all had the experience that came out of Covid-19 where maybe there is resistance at a local level to reverting to traffic themes which were in there in the past. However, there is no doubt that these public spaces can become hugely vibrant by making big, bold changes. It does require a lot of bold steps by local authorities, but also by the owners of premises and the commercial operators. It is important that we continue to make those positive changes in our towns and cities.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I have one final question around the concerns which, sometimes, people with disabilities or visual impairments have. I know earlier the Minister of State said it is for the local authorities to address that on the ground and there are different circumstances. Is there any oversight or independent analysis being done on these measures, and whether local authorities are taking those concerns on board enough, or how they are performing on that? Is anyone doing any oversight or analysis of local authorities on that? It is definitely a concern for some people.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

It is. It is really important. The first point is that at local level, all local authorities should have an access officer and should have a local consultative access group to consult regarding general planning issues. The planning authority is the first point of contact in ensuring that our public spaces are disability-proofed, as well as buildings. Regarding oversight of the local authorities themselves, I am not sure. I am sure it is absolutely important that all local authorities adhere to the universal design guidance as well. Under Article 9, regarding the issues around hazard to pedestrians, exemptions are removed, so there is strict guidance in there to ensure that premises are adhering to it.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy O'Callaghan. Does Deputy Ó Broin wish to come back in?

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Apologies, but one of the questions I asked in the first round was not answered. I presume the reason for this is just to speed up the process by which the bus stops, vending machines and street furniture can be implemented. In terms of time, what is the actual time saving from the exemptions?

The second is with respect to street furniture and advertising. Certain drinks advertisers, for example, may and in some cases do offer free street furniture so long as they can advertise. It is very positive that the vending machines do not permit the advertising of other kinds of commercial products. Is that something that can be considered, or has been considered, with respect to street furniture?

Ultimately, the responsibility for managing this comes down to the local authorities, but the clearer the advice issued centrally, the more consistent the approach. I would hope the Minister of State will take away from members of the committee, particularly with respect to visually impaired people and those who have to navigate the streets, that clear guidance from the Department to the local authorities would really help. If that is not an issue for anybody, it enhances the general public perception that this is a good thing, which I think we all agree with. However, when one has incidents such as that gentleman I saw fall last week, that colours people's attitude. If there is not very clear guidance already from the Department to the local authorities - and maybe there is - the clearer that guidance is in terms of safety for those who are visually impaired, the better.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

Just to give assurance to the Deputy, in the circulars which are being issued to local authorities, we are giving clear guidance on disability proofing, and ensuring that public spaces and the public realm is maintained in a safe way for people of all abilities. That is hugely important.

On the second point with regard to drinks advertising, generally, companies are getting more clever at how branding can be done, and how it is put out. It is a broader issue, as is alcohol advertising generally. Sometimes they are advertising zero-alcohol products, but they are advertising a product as well. They have become very clever regarding how they respond, but I do think it is important. It is a broader issue which would perhaps require a bigger discussion, both in planning terms, but also around alcohol advertising generally.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

On that, we have a bizarre situation in Dublin at the moment where planning permission had been previously granted for telephones, back when not all of us had mobile phones. Those structures still exist and are there, but they no longer have telephones on them. They have commercial advertisements, and even though the planning was granted for the purpose of having a payphone, they are now essentially circumventing some of the advertising requirements because they have the permission already. Clearly that is not a good use of our public realm and space, so I ask the Minister of State to consider that with his officials at a later point.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

Absolutely, and it is certainly something which the committee could perhaps give consideration to having a deeper dive into at some point. It would be useful.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Regarding the time of the planning gain, for example, with regard to the NTA and Dublin Bus, what will be gained, time wise, from not having to go through planning?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

We want to replace, basically, almost all the bus poles across the country, so one is talking about 12,000 to 16,000. One could imagine the overwhelming of the planning system if one was to run a planning permission for each of those. In any event, we have to get local authority approval for the positioning. It a big time and efficiency saving factor for us.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Is that both for the NTA and the local authorities?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

Correct.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Would the NTA need planning even just to replace an existing pole, if it is substantially different from the existing structure?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

Without this exemption?

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Yes.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

Yes, we should. We try to navigate our way through that by working with local authorities, but this brings clarity to it. Without this, the answer would be, if it is substantially different - and new poles are - it probably is.

An Cathaoirleach

I will add to the points made by Deputy Ó Broin. In regard to the circular to the local authorities about guidance on this, it would be very helpful if they were asked to issue guidance to those businesses owners where they know these tables and chairs licences are in place just to remind them. It has been in place for two years and sometimes clutter can become normalised just because of the extent of time it has been there. That would be helpful.

On the telephone kiosks, I suggest that we might look at something in the planning regulations that will go into the planning Bill as well. The orientation of kiosks should be where they offer the least resistance to pedestrians. At the moment, they are placed face on to the pedestrians because they are primarily for the purpose of advertising. If they were made to go the other way, it would not be half as attractive as an advertising opportunity. It certainly would not be lit up because there would be a traffic impact then on the traffic-facing side. It is something we will consider in the context of the planning Bill as well.

Members have had the opportunity to consider the draft regulations. We have done the reverse vending machines, the fees and the bus poles. As we have now completed our consideration, the clerk will send a message to that effect to the clerks of the Dáil and the Seanad.

I thank the Minister of State, his officials and Mr Creegan. for their attendance. We will suspend the meeting for five minutes before moving to our second session, at which we will deal with the other two planning exemptions with the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell.