Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Nov 2023

Local and European Elections 2024 and Subsequent General Election: Discussion

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are meeting to discuss the local and European elections in 2024 and the subsequent general election. From the Electoral Commission, we are joined by Mr. Art O'Leary, chief executive, Mr. Carey, head of electoral operations, Dr. Mary-Clare O'Sullivan, head of electoral integrity and research, and Ms Karen Kehily, head of corporate services. From the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, we are joined by Mr. Barry Ryan, principal officer in the franchise unit, Ms Petra Woods, principal officer with the electoral registration modernisation project, and Ms Paris Beausang, assistant principal in the franchise unit. Members have been circulated with the relevant papers.

I have received apologies from the Cathaoirleach, who will join us shortly following a contribution he will make in the Dáil.

Before we begin, I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, to participate in public meetings.

Witnesses attending in the committee room are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy and it is my duty, as Chair, to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The opening statements submitted to the committee will be published on our web page after the meeting. I invite the witnesses to make their opening statements, starting with Mr. Ryan.

Mr. Barry Ryan

Good afternoon. I thank the committee for the opportunity to discuss the forthcoming electoral events, which, in the immediate future, will include the local and European elections and the next general election. Over the next 18 months to two years, we can expect the full suite of electoral events to take place.

As the Chair mentioned, I am joined today by Ms Petra Woods, principal officer in the electoral register modernisation programme, and Ms Paris Beausang, assistant principal in the franchise section.

The forthcoming electoral events will be the first elections since the enactment of the Electoral Reform Act 2022, which set out an ambitious set of electoral reforms. Principal among those reforms was the establishment of an independent electoral commission, An Coimisiún Toghcháin, on 9 February this year. The Electoral Commission, which is represented at this meeting, has already discharged several functions in relation to the upcoming elections, including through its review and revision of Dáil and European Parliament constituencies. The Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2023, which gives effect to the commission's recommendations in respect of constituencies, is currently before the Dáil, with Report and Final Stages scheduled for tomorrow.

The commission has assumed responsibility for the registration of political parties and has an education remit that entails encouraging people to vote and participate in our democratic processes. The post-electoral event reviews of the commission will provide important opportunities to learn what processes and procedures in our electoral system can be improved.

Modernisation of the electoral registration process was another important reform arising from the Electoral Reform Act. Commenced in October 2022, the provisions in Part 3 of the Act introduced continuous registration along with a number of changes to streamline the process and make it more accessible. Arising from those changes, people can now register and amend their details at any time of year and can do so online. Many people have taken the opportunity to do just that. We continue working with local authorities to encourage more people to do so.

The legislation also introduced a form of identity check for all new applicants and updates to the register and provided the legal basis for the use of the PPS number in the process. The legislation also provided for some new cohorts, with 16- and 17-year-olds now able to pre-register to vote and provision was made for people with no address and for those whose safety would be at risk if their information was published on the register. To ensure there is ongoing progress in relation to the integrity of the electoral register and its processes, An Coimisiún Toghcháin now has an oversight role and can make recommendations to individual registration authorities or to the Minister in that regard.

The Electoral Reform Act, in Part 4, when commenced, also provides for a framework for the regulation by the Electoral Commission of online political advertising during election periods, along with the labelling of online political advertisements and transparency notices for such ads.

Part 5 of the Act, when commenced, will provide for a regulatory framework to protect the integrity of elections and referendums against the dissemination or publication of online disinformation, online misinformation and manipulative or inauthentic behaviour online. The Department is continuing to engage with the European Commission in relation to the provisions of Parts 4 and 5.

In addition to the commitment to establish an independent electoral commission, the Programme for Government: Our Shared Future also contains commitments to examine a number of issues relating to voting, namely, examining the Scottish experience of reducing the voting age; the use of posters at elections and referendums; the use of postal voting, with a view to expanding it; the replacement of by-elections with an alternate list system; and the time limitation on people who are temporarily living outside the State to remain on the electoral register. An examination of these issues, along with other electoral matters, is contained in the commission's draft research programme, on which it is currently consulting.

I thank the Chair. My colleagues and I will be happy to engage further with the committee.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Ryan. I call Mr. O'Leary.

Mr. Art O'Leary

Gabhaim buíochas as cuireadh an choiste dúinn a bheith leo ag an gcruinniú inniu. Chaith mé deich mbliana sona sa seomra seo nuair a bhí mé ag obair sa pharóiste seo agus tá an áthas orm bheith ar ais arís. I thank the Chairman for his kind invitation to be here at the committee today. I spent ten very happy years in this room when I worked in this parish and it is a great pleasure to be back again.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I note it is Mr. O'Leary's second appearance at the committee in two weeks and I believe he was also at another committee the previous week. He is doing his best to stay in the room and is always welcome.

Mr. Art O'Leary

It is like the good old days.

Our appearance today marks the first appearance by An Coimisiún Toghcháin before this committee in our new role as Ireland’s independent electoral commission. The work and functions of the commission resonate in particular with the role and responsibilities of this committee, so I expect to be in regular contact with it about many issues of relevance to our functions.

We are coming into a potentially very busy electoral period, with the possibility of every possible type of electoral event – all eight – being held within the next 24 months, but we embrace that challenge.

Although it has been the subject of discussion in the Oireachtas for many decades, this is the first time an independent body like ours has been tasked with protecting the integrity of our democracy by scrutinising and modernising our register, examining and reporting on how our elections happen, researching key challenges facing our democracy and ensuring people can trust that their vote counts and is counted.

We were established just nine months ago so perhaps I will first take a moment to outline our work and functions. As members will be aware, An Coimisiún Toghcháin has taken on a range of pre-existing electoral functions, along with the new functions set out in the Electoral Reform Act 2022. The pre-existing functions include the carrying out of constituency reviews for local, Dáil and European elections; the registration of Ireland's political parties; undertaking the role and work on referendums previously held by the Referendum Commission; and encouraging people to get out and vote across our electoral events. Our new functions include preparing research and providing advice on electoral policy and procedure, building awareness of our democratic processes through education and information, and oversight of Ireland's electoral register. We also have functions related to the regulation of online political advertising and online misinformation and disinformation during election periods. These functions, set out in Parts 4 and 5 of our founding legislation, have yet to be commenced.

Very pertinent to today’s discussion on the upcoming local and European elections, as well as the next general election, we have also been tasked after every electoral event with preparing an independent report on how those events were administered. This work will include visits to polling places, observing the voting process in action, attending and observing local and national counts and gathering on-the-ground detail on the operation of our electoral events.

While we are not tasked with the keeping of the register of electors, which remains the preserve of our local authorities, or administering the elections, which remains under the auspices of the Department of housing, we have a significant oversight role, which will allow us to report to these Houses after each electoral event on the administration of that election.

Our first electoral event now seems likely to come in early March with two referendums. An Coimisiún Toghcháin has the responsibility to deliver the independent information campaign for these referendums, a role previously held by the Referendum Commission, and through that work seek to engage people across the State to get registered, get informed and get out to vote.

In relation to the electoral register, An Coimisiún Toghcháin may commission or carry out research on the accuracy and completeness of the registers, the maintenance of the registers and the processes relating to the compilation and overall functioning of the electoral registers. Each year, An Coimisiún will publish a report setting out our assessment of the status and functioning of the electoral register, and any recommendations the commission considers necessary to maintain and enhance the integrity of the electoral register and the registration process.

Another significant responsibility is our research function. This will allow us, as a commission, to identity key issues within our democracy that need specific scrutiny and to make necessary recommendations to Government.

Our first draft research programme was published for consultation on 10 November 2023. It sets out initial potential research priorities for the next three years across five strands. We are currently seeking submissions from this committee as well as experts, stakeholders and members of the public to inform and shape the programme, with a deadline of 12 January.

We want to give everyone, from all sections of society, a chance to shape our research programme, with inclusivity and fairness set out as key values of our research. An coimisiún will conduct and commission research to inform its approach to its education and public engagement remit and to encourage the electoral participation of underreached groups, including increasing representation of women, people with disabilities and people from diverse ethnic backgrounds, including Traveller and Roma communities.

Members of these Houses are all very familiar with the work of An Coimisiún Toghcháin, mostly through our early work on both the Dáil and European Parliament constituency reviews, in which Members obviously have a keen and direct interest. That work, however, is just one strand of a diverse range of functions, which I expect members will get to know in much greater detail and depth in the days, months and years ahead.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The first slot is Fianna Fáil's, which I will take. That is not an abuse of the Chair but our standard rota. I see the Chair arriving; he might take a seat and I will continue.

After decades of the Electoral Commission being spoken about, many members were very pleased that this was one of the first legislative items we dealt with. It is very welcome and gives us an opportunity to talk to members of a body with responsibility in this area about the issues we will address today. The fact we are here says a lot. I do not envy the commission the workload but its work is significant.

I will raise the matter of the significant debate that took place during pre-legislative scrutiny, sometimes in private session, on the issue of online political advertising. There was some debate at the time on whether the legislation will, for the first time, facilitate political advertising, which previously had no legislative basis. The fear was there were perhaps not enough safeguards in the legislation to protect some of the concerns people had around online political advertising. At that time, two of the three main platforms, namely, TikTok and Twitter, did not engage in online political advertising. Only Facebook permitted it, which it still does, and, by extension, its platform, Instagram. I should call Facebook "Meta". We are in a very different space now. TikTok continues to ban online political advertising but Twitter, or X, now seems to say it will allow cause-based advertising. Only yesterday, the owner of that platform was in very robust discussions, and I am being polite, with regard to the Taoiseach. There have to be concerns around what safeguards or measures are in place. I say that on behalf of any political party.

There were also a large number of concerns around the use of online political advertising by external actors, and how measures we might have in place here could be integrated into the platform structure that is unique to Irish circumstances. There are powers in the legislation to have take-down notices. There was a fear at the time that they would not be sufficiently quick to manage the significant speed an election campaign operates by. I note the European Commission has put certain obstacles in place in that regard and the Government is to reply. I would welcome an update on that.

The committee believed, and we carried out subsequent research on it, that more work was to be done in the space of online political advertising. It should be an area that the commission focuses on because with the advent of AI, there is now an opportunity for multiple versions of the same ad to be created, posted and rotated. That is a new space. The reason I say that is previously, if a poster, newspaper ad or even a leaflet was taken out, which said, "Older people are my priority", then younger people would make their assessment of that, whereas now, with segmentation, we can tell both older and younger people that they are a priority and we will give them multiples of the same thing. There is no transparency in the argument in the same way. That is very important because we know politics is often about choices and resources. I say all that only to encourage commission members. That is a very significant area they need to look at.

I probably have a more personal view about the next issue but there is a common concern about it, namely, the proliferation of postering. Posters are important, especially for new candidates, for signalling an election and for letting the public know it is time to engage. The proliferation is a significant problem. In a small, three-seat constituency, there might be six or eight candidates, or a European or local election on the same day. The wallpapering that exists around posters is of real concern. Dublin City Council proposed that because it owns the lampposts, it could control what goes onto them. It proposed a regulatory regime that did not get through the council. I urge the commission to examine that issue. I have left Mr. O'Leary very little time to respond. There were more points than questions.

Mr. Art O'Leary

I will respond briefly. Mr. Ryan might say something about the update on the conversations with the European Commission.

As the Leas-Chathaoirleach knows, Parts 4 and 5 of the legislation have yet to be commenced but the thrust of what was desired by the Houses of the Oireachtas was very clear. From reading the legislation, people and Members wanted greater transparency in this area. There is much to be said about online political advertising. We will learn from experience because the platforms develop so quickly. We are prepared to regulate in this area as soon as Part 4 is commenced along the lines of whatever the legislation is. We all probably agree that transparency is a good thing. People need to identify who is paying for and benefiting from ads and particularly, as mentioned, what cohort or segment of society is being targeted by these ads. I have no doubt it is an area that will come up in our research programme. It is something we are prepared to be ambitious about in how we tackle it.

On the postering issue, the Leas-Chathaoirleach has given the reasons for and against postering. The academics who have expressed a strong view on this area believe they are very important, as he said, to introduce new candidates. The incumbents have an advantage, in that they tend to be well-known figures in their community. Posters are a way of introducing the face of somebody who puts his or her head above the parapet for the first time. Perhaps there is merit in that argument. It will not come as a surprise that some people only discover electoral events are on when they see posters up on lampposts, and they say, "Wow. Is there something going on here?". It is something people in Leinster House and its environs find hard to understand but it is a fact. The downside is the proliferation of posters, the damage to the environment and all that comes with it. It is a priority issue in our draft research programme. We were asked by the Minister to treat it as a priority. We will look at the issue in the early part of the new year with an urgency to make sure-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I ask witnesses not to abuse the time.

Mr. Barry Ryan

I will give an update on Part 4 of the Electoral Reform Act 2022 and online political advertising, and where we are at with that. At the time, those provisions were notified to the European Commission, as we are required to do. The Commission issued a detailed opinion on those provisions. We have been working with them to iron out those issues. That is the first issue. Second, alongside that, an EU regulation is being proposed and developed that broadly mirrors what is in Part 4. That is now close to a conclusion. It is not an exaggeration to say we have been engaging with the Commission nearly on a weekly basis over the past year on that regulation. That is close to conclusion. The Spanish Presidency has made it a priority and wants to get it across the line. When it is across the line, we will clearly have to look at Part 4 to make sure it is in line with that EU regulation.

Deputy Steven Matthews took the Chair.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank all our guests for being here. I welcome them in their capacity as members of a newly formed organisation. We need the commission now more than ever. We know that democracy is fragile. We are living in a changing world of 24-7 news, fake news, artificial intelligence, targeted adverts, misinformation and social media.

All of those factors can be weaponised to attack democracy. The commission is operating in a different space than it would have been were it established ten or 20 years ago, so I thank it for the work it does.

I have a comment on online advertising. I think we should be looking at regulating that, not just during election periods but right throughout election cycles. My first question is about constituency review, and I thank the commission for its work on this, although this is probably not really a question for the witnesses. Is there a timeframe within which the legislation to bring that into effect needs to be passed on publication of the reports? My second question concerns the commission's responsibility for oversight of the electoral register, and its accuracy and completeness. I first compliment the current campaign being run at voter.ie. It is effective and good. It is great that it is happening outside of that election period too because it is effective in that way. I know in my local authority there are discrepancies between this year's and last year's register of electors as provided to me as an elected representative. How do we, as public representatives, flag that? Do we flag that with our council or do we flag it with the commission? How do we do it in a GDPR-safe way? My third question is about a pet peeve of mine, which is proportional representation. I feel a lot of our electorate does not how our election system works. I know that education and public engagement comes under the Commission's remit. What plans are in place to show people how 1,2,3 works?

Mr. Barry Ryan

I will answer the Deputy's question on the timeframe for enactment of the Bill. As mentioned in the opening statement, the Bill's Report and Final Stages take place tomorrow in the Dáil, and is scheduled for the Seanad in coming weeks to have it enacted before Christmas. There is no actual timeframe set down.

Deputy Emer Higgins

Why is there no timeframe, out of interest?

Mr. Barry Ryan

In a previous judgment, the courts spoke of the urgent burden on the Oireachtas to legislate once the census shows the constituencies are out of sync with the Constitution. They did not set down an actual timeframe but they called it an urgent burden. We take it that means to do it as quickly as possible. The report was published at the end of August. The report on European Parliament constituencies was published this month. It will be enacted within a number of weeks.

Deputy Emer Higgins

If there were to be an unforeseen election called today or tomorrow, the Dáil would be dissolved and we would be doing it on the old boundaries rather than the new ones.

Mr. Barry Ryan

That would be a difficult position to be in, and that is why the courts refer to it as an urgent burden, and why it is always a priority once the report has been published. Ms Woods will deal with the question on the registers.

Ms Petra Woods

There are two campaigns running. We provided funding to local authorities for additional activity on electoral registration and promoting use. The four Dublin authorities did a combined campaign within the Dublin region for voter.ie. The wider national campaign focuses more on Check the Register. The notification of any discrepancies or inaccuracies in the register is made directly to the registration authority, which in the case of Dublin is the relevant local authority. There is a form online for any person to fill out who has any issue with an entry not their own.

Mr. Art O'Leary

I agree with the Deputy about proportional representation. It is difficult, but Irish people love it. There have been a number of proposals in the history of the State to change our way of voting, which have been resisted by the Irish people. I do not view this as a challenge; it is an opportunity. We will have many elections in the next couple of years and we should use them as opportunities to explain how PR-STV works. As I have said previously, our ambition in the education, information and active participation space should be eye-watering. We have been well resourced for the next couple of years to be able to run proper information and engagement programmes. We are really looking forward to getting stuck into this because it is not just about explaining PR-STV. It is about encouraging people to get onto the register and actively take part in electoral events. However, on a personal level, I was sorry when we had a trial of electronic voting in this country. To my mind, the election and the three or four days afterwards during the count are the greatest educational opportunity we have to explain how people get elected, how votes are transferred, etc. We will have the opportunity in the coming local, European and general elections to do that.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I will add to the electronic side. Those of us from political backgrounds have campaign teams who are often fascinated, invested and involved in the tally process. It is great to see all political parties leave politics outside of the count centre, and work collaboratively on that. We of course then have tallies which are great sources of information for politicians. Ireland is probably unique in that, and I welcome it. It would be great if the Commission would consider running ads in the run-up to elections about how PR-STV works. They could be cartoon type ads showing what happens when you cast your 1,2,3 or if somebody is eliminated. It needs to be spelled out because it is complicated for people. As Mr. O'Leary noted, sometimes people do not know there is an election until the posters are up. I would add on top of that knowing how to vote. It is complex. I often meet people who say they gave me a vote and who do not understand that they had a vote to give, and not 11, 12 or however many were on the ballot papers. It is a huge opportunity, as Mr. O'Leary has said, to educate people on that.

Mr. Art O'Leary

I agree. We will take full advantage of that. The education, information and active participation strategy, which will appear in the first quarter of next year will cover the full spectrum - nose to tail - of the electoral process from being able to pre-enroll as a 16-year-old to voting right through your life.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank the witnesses for all of the work they do.

An Cathaoirleach

I will take the next slot. The Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2023 goes to Report and Final Stages in the Dáil tomorrow, and then on to the Seanad. I think we will be okay to meet that deadline even if an election is called. I turn to the last point made by Mr. O'Leary. Is the pre-enrolment of 16-year-olds and 17-year-olds being monitored? Is he aware how much of that is going on at the moment? Is that part of it being enacted? I talk to schools about it and they tell me it is great, but none of them have done it yet. How will the commission monitor and watch that as it goes along?

Ms Petra Woods

One of the benefits of the modernisation process and the upgrades we have done to the systems local authorities use is that we have better access to information. The Cathaoirleach is correct that the uptake is quite low. Local authorities have been engaging, going into schools and so on. We have had feedback from the National Youth Council that it is useful to be able to talk to people about engaging and then presenting them with an action they can take. The numbers are quite low, so they would be in the low hundreds.

An Cathaoirleach

I think there is a QR code to get people onto it. Would it be acceptable in the classroom to say that as they all have smartphones, they can use the QR code to go register?

Mr. Art O'Leary

It is absolutely our intention that they do something like that.

An Cathaoirleach

Good stuff.

Mr. Art O'Leary

The experience, in particular in countries where they allow voting at 16, is that if you develop those habits as a 16-year-old and 17-year-old they tend to become lifelong habits. In small classes it will take ten minutes to say they will all sign up on the electoral register as 16-year-olds and 17-year-olds. It is not difficult and it is not rocket science. It is something we will take full advantage of.

An Cathaoirleach

The question has already come up about monitoring and managing social media, online content and how it has the ability to twist and turn. It has the agility to move quickly. I am intrigued to know how we can possibly try to address it. It seems like a slippery fish, and it keeps evolving and changing. When we looked at the electoral reform Bill at this committee and started to lift the lid, I realised you could go a long way trying to chase this.

Is that the best way to try to manage it, or is the best way to counter with clear, concise and regular information campaigns for everybody? I am talking about having an alternative source rather than trying to chase the elusive one.

Mr. Art O'Leary

There are a couple of sides to that particular question. We are fortunate that this organisation did not exist before because we now have an opportunity to build something from scratch that suits the modern environment in which we live. We are building an organisation that can be responsive, flexible and clearly attuned to what is going on in the digital space. That is not something many State bodies are often accused of but because we are brand new, we can build a culture that can deliver on those kinds of requirements.

The second point the Cathaoirleach made is an interesting one. The suggestion from some of the experts in this area is not to obsess over individual posts or tweets or posts on any of the Meta platforms but to watch for trends, bot activity or thousands of actors in this space, which is the stuff you need to deal with. There are many tools at our disposal here. There is the issue about transparent, clear, factual information. People need to see that An Coimisiún Toghcháin is a trusted source for information so that if they see anything slightly concerning and they do not know whether it is true or not, they would come to us and we would be able to provide some clarity. There is lots of that. There have been ads recently from Coimisiún na Meán and news brands about their "stop and consider" campaign. The Swedes have a particular campaign at the moment which basically says that if it makes you angry, it is probably fake. That probably would not work in this country but some type of "stop and think" or "stop and consider" campaign is likely to be the most effective option as we educate people and inform them about where their trusted sources of information are.

An Cathaoirleach

There is the obvious messaging that is very easy for people to pick up on and there is the more nuanced messaging or the dog whistle, as it is referred to, because it is only audible for certain people or certain cohorts. We need to follow up on that and chase that down because that might not be apparent. Some of those messages are not very clear as to the direction they are going but they will be to others. It is going to be a huge challenge for the commission. I do not know how it is going to take it on but it does need to be taken on.

Mr. Art O'Leary

We accept that. We absolutely accept the challenge, recognising that it is of concern to many people, not just Members of the Oireachtas and those political actors. We are a small organisation. This time next year we will have about 50 people, I suspect. It is clear we cannot manage this challenge by ourselves. It will be done in collaboration with electoral management bodies from all around the world. They have some really bright ideas in electoral commissions in other jurisdictions about how to manage this process because there are actors in different spaces there as well. It also requires the co-operation of social media companies. We will be looking forward to engaging with the social media companies in the weeks and months ahead on the management of this particular challenge.

An Cathaoirleach

I have other questions but I will move on to members. I call Senator Boyhan.

Senator Victor Boyhan

We have read both the submissions and I appreciate them very much. I just have a few questions. I will go to the Department first and just touch on these issues in a block and then the witnesses can respond accordingly. We have had the Electoral Act and this committee has been hugely involved in the Bill. There was a lot of engagement and public consultation on a wide variety of issues, which the witnesses will all be aware of, so there is no point talking any further about that. The legislation that was introduced dealt with the form of an identity check for all new applicants and those updating the register with PPS numbers. Some people would have concerns about that. I personally do not have any concerns but that was an issue. I presume that is for people coming onto the register and not people who are already on the existing register. I do see some advertisements, which are good, saying that everyone needs to check the register and update the register. That is not a bad thing because some people fall off the register for all sorts of reasons historically. That is important. The witnesses might give some reassurances around all of that, including on PPSNs.

The pre-registration to vote is excellent. It is not what I personally would like. I would have liked to have gone further but that is not a matter for me. When is that going to kick in? I presume the witnesses are trying to trap those young 16 and 17-year-olds on the registration. That is a positive thing.

Something that got lost in a lot of our debate, and has been mentioned here, is how we are going to engage with people with no address. They are significant players in terms of a whole load of other social concerns and a whole load of other demographics. The witnesses might touch on how they are going to deal with that.

Regarding the electoral reform Act, Part 1 and Part 5 have not been commenced. That is significant. They are very significant parts of this legislation. I do not know how all of that is going in terms of engagement with the Ministers in the Department. What is the delay? There was some suggestion that there are EU Commission issues with that.

I will now go to the Electoral Commission. I commend the commission on its graphics. It is not all about graphics and pictures and publications but the content also and both get full marks. It is an easy document to read. It is attractive. It sets a very high bar for the beginning of what the commission is about and I think it is worth commending it on that. I also notice that its electoral boundaries reports are highly impressive. Those are two pieces of feedback I wanted to give.

We had a meeting with local media, including radio, local papers and provincial papers and they singled out the commission for not taking one single ad in any provincial or local paper so far. I know it is early days but I thought that was an important point to make. They illustrated the coverage in the national papers. Indeed, they photocopied those ads and gave us statistics on that. While the commission does not have a mandate to support local papers, it is important because local papers and local radio are very closely connected with local communities. It is another cohort of people it might not always get exposure to. The witnesses might just bear that in mind.

The public consultation and feedback, the questions asked and the key issues raised, is brilliant. The closing date is 12 January. I would suggest the commission engage in another round of publicity to highlight that. We are now falling into Christmas. We clearly want people engaging for this to be a success. I ask that the commission might look at whatever medium it decides to use - that is a matter for the witnesses - because it is important that we continue to keep that high level of engagement and the only way to do that is to tap in locally. Those are just a few points. Maybe the Department could start with replies.

Ms Petra Woods

I will start with the use of PPSNs. The Senator is right that the Electoral Reform Act gives the legal basis for the use of the PPSN in the registration process. As regards the identity check, there are three ways in which a person can identify themselves for engagement with the register. The first is through myGovID if they are doing so online. At the moment that is only available in the Dublin region through voter.ie but it will ultimately be available to everybody. The second is the one that is used most on checktheregister.ie, although it is also available on voter.ie, and that is by providing the PPSN. The third option is to have an in-person identity check, that is, to turn up to a registration authority with some photo ID. Those three options were chosen because they gave the full spectrum of a reasonable check on identity. It is for new and existing people on the register, so anyone wishing to register for the first time and anyone wanting to update their details. The reason it is considered important for people who are already on the register is that people move or change address. We need to allow local authorities to confirm entries that people are happy with that are current and correct, and then they can focus their efforts on those where there is no confirmation. That is why it applies to everybody.

Regarding 16 and 17-year-olds, those provisions have been commenced, so 16 and 17-year-olds can now pre-register through voter.ie or checktheregister.ie. We focused on them to some degree in our awareness campaigns. We provided posters and assets that focused very much on young people. It is a relatively slow uptake but I know the commission has plans in that regard.

In terms of people with no address, we made provision to provide for a situation where a person has no premises at which they are resident when they wish to register to vote. In consultation with an organisation that was looking to do a campaign with people with no address we came to the realisation that the flexibility and ease with which people can now update their details works for a large number of people. These provisions are now also active for those with no address and it can be done on checktheregister.ie. It is available online and there is also a paper form.

Mr. Art O'Leary

I thank Senator Boyhan for his kind words about our report. It is the work of our extraordinarily talented head of communications, Brian Dawson, who is in the gallery. Senator Boyhan mentioned local media, local newspapers and local radio. They will be very important platforms for us in what will be the forthcoming referendum information campaign and for electoral events in future that are for a particular area. I am thinking perhaps about the directly elected mayor of Limerick next year. Obviously the best way to speak to the people of Limerick will be through the media that the people of Limerick use. As well as national media this is something where local newspapers and local radio will be very good for us. Senator Boyhan can be reassured that local media will play a very important part for us. I heard what he said about advertising and our draft research programme. There has been a very good response from the initial round. The deadline is not until 12 January. We will find a way to encourage people to make further submissions. Many people have 12 January in their mind as the deadline. It is the target as opposed to something they should do now. Trying to get people to focus in the Christmas and new year period is hard because all they seem to be thinking about is the Smyths Toys catalogue. We will find a way to reach out to people who would like to make a contribution.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I apologise for being late; I was introducing legislation in the Dáil. I am sure it has been said but it is great to have the Electoral Commission before us. We know from the passage of the legislation through the Oireachtas there was cross-party universal support for the establishment of the commission. With the exception of one area of the legislation, which I will come to presently, there was very strong consensus about how this has been done. It is great the witnesses are here and are starting this work. We all wish them a fair wind.

I want to raise a number of specific areas with the Electoral Commission and the Department. One of the big issues debated at great length here was the role the commission will play in increasing electoral participation, particularly among sections of society which, for a variety of reasons, have lower levels of participation. These include young people, migrant communities, those from economically disadvantaged areas and Travellers. I am very keen to hear, even at this early stage and I know there will be consultation on the research programme, where the commission is at on this. It would seem to be an important and fundamental part of its work and I would like to hear the thinking of the witnesses on it. I would like any further information the witnesses can give us on the research programme, even with regard to the consultation and what level of engagement they are getting.

There is the thorny issue of very hastily introduced last-minute amendments to the Bill on online regulation and the discomfort it caused the European Commission, particularly in terms of conflict with the e-commerce directive. This may be more for the franchise section then the commission. Will the witnesses give us an update on where this is at? Have these issues being resolved? Will there have to be further changes to the primary legislation to overcome these matters?

My next question might be unfair to Mr. O'Leary in his first hearing in his new role. State agencies can have different forms. We can have very strong and positive State agencies with a lot of independent power and punch, such as the Environmental Protection Agency or the Food Safety Authority of Ireland. We also know there are agencies that have very important roles, such as SIPO, which are not often given full legislative independence or responses to requests for further powers are not necessarily forthcoming from the Government. How satisfied is Mr. O'Leary that the Electoral Commission has all of the powers it requires, given the limited staff and the fact it is only up and running? The hope is that over time the commission will grow in an appropriate manner to be a very strong, fully independent body to ensure we have the best possible electoral system and electoral processes.

Mr. Art O'Leary

I will start with the questions that are appropriate for us. I was at the citizens' assembly meeting on drug use over the summer. Somebody said something that really changed my mind on how we should approach public engagement and education. A man who worked in a treatment centre for addiction said there is no such thing as hard to reach people or groups, there are only hard to reach services. It dawned on me over the summer that we had been looking at this issue through the wrong end of the telescope. Young people, Travellers, immigrants and even women get up every day and live their lives, and there is no point in me being in an ivory tower saying these people are very hard to reach. Our job is to be where they hang out and to speak and engage in conversations.

We are developing what was envisaged as an education and public engagement programme in the legislation and we are calling it an active participation strategy. This is to cover the full spectrum of Irish society, especially those who do not engage in our electoral process. The committee will get an opportunity to have a look at the strategy, probably in the first quarter of next year. We are really looking forward to this. The group of commission members and the executive team here with me today feel this is an area where we can make a real difference. We will be judged by our success here. As the electoral register gets better and better, and becomes a better record, we will be able to measure our progress with regard to those on the register and those turning up to vote. In the years ahead we look forward to being held to account for our work in this area. It is a place where people should be able to notice a real difference.

With regard to strong agencies, I mentioned earlier we are building an agency that suits the society in which we live. Over the past 30 years there have been eight separate Government decisions to establish an electoral commission but this is the first time it has happened. It has happened at a moment when we can build the agency to fit the requirements of Irish society. We have to defend democracy from attack but also encourage participation and adopt regulatory roles.

We have all the powers we need right now to do everything we have to do. Our in tray as an organisation is chock-a-block. On day one, when you might like to think we would have gathered commission members in a room to speak about strategy and long-term strategy, we were speaking about constituency sizes and the constituency review. We now have an opportunity between electoral events to work on all of the variety of areas. We have enough to be getting on with. We have been given sufficient resources for the next year or two to be able to do everything that has been asked of us.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I will cut across Mr. O'Leary because I have only a minute left and I am keen to get an update on what is happening with the European Commission.

Mr. Barry Ryan

With regard to Parts 4 and 5, we notified them to the European Commission at the time, as we were required to do. It issued a detailed opinion on Part 4 and issued us some observations on Part 5. We have worked with it on these concerns which, as Deputy Ó Broin said, were mainly with regard to compliance with the e-commerce directive. Alongside of this is the EU's own regulation on political advertising, on which it has been working. Over the past 12 months we have been working very closely on this and probably on a weekly basis feeding into the deliberations on it. The Swedish Presidency had great hopes of getting it over the line before the summer but it did not happen. The Spanish Presidency has made it a priority and it is now close to finalisation.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I apologise for cutting across Mr. Ryan but time is running out. Will we need amending legislation on foot of the engagement with the Commission for these two sections of the Electoral Reform Act? I presume the answer is "Yes".

Mr. Barry Ryan

Yes.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Is there a timeline for this?

Mr. Barry Ryan

As soon as possible. Clearly, if an EU regulation is in place that is what will be in place.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Yes but I mean specifically. There was limited discussion on the detail of those two Parts of the Bill.

The difficulty is that very little work can happen until the outstanding issues between the Irish Government and the Commission with respect to those two Parts can be resolved and the legislation amended, if required. What does "as soon as possible" look like? Will it be in time, for example, for the local and European elections next year or the general election?

Mr. Barry Ryan

I cannot give a timeline for sure but it will be as soon as possible. "Yes" is the answer to the Deputy's question. Clearly, with an EU regulation, amendments would be needed. "Yes" is also the answer to the Deputy's other question.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Does that mean two sets of amendments might be needed? One would arise from the concern the Commission had with the original Bill as presented to us. The other would relate to any other or separate matters that arise out of the directive.

Mr. Barry Ryan

That is what we have been trying to avoid. We have been trying to bring forward a composite.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

That would be one set of amendments to deal with both sets of issues.

Mr. Barry Ryan

That is exactly right.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I want to be clear on that point. This may well not be up and running for the election cycles into which we are going. Is that the case?

Mr. Barry Ryan

I am just-----

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Mr. Ryan cannot say. He does not know.

Mr. Barry Ryan

Yes.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Okay, thanks. I will move to the review of the Electoral Act 1997. I notice that the language being used around it has changed a little. It was referred to as an immediate priority for the commission and the published research programme states it will commission a review. Will Mr. Ryan give us a timeline for the review of the Electoral Act 1997? Will spending limits be considered? I suppose everything will be considered as part of the review. I have always found that while it is better to have spending limits, I do not think anyone reaches those limits. They do not have much of an effect on controlling spending. In fact, if some candidates in the larger constituencies were using the full spending limit, it could have an impact. Those limits seem high to me. Are those things going to be looked at or reviewed? Most candidates do not come anywhere near the spending limits so it seems a relatively ineffectual proposal. Perhaps our guests would answer that point.

The research programme is in general very good and well laid out. Can our guests give us an idea of the timelines? Is it too early to do so? How long will it take to get much of what is in the draft done? Perhaps our guests could give us an idea in that regard.

Mr. Barry Ryan

I thank the Deputy. The research programme contains a proposal to conduct a review of the 1997 Act. I am not aware that we gave any indication it would be a priority but it is an important piece of work that will be undertaken early in the new year.

The deadline for receipt of submissions is 12 January. I suspect the commission at its meeting in early February will assign its priorities for the research programme. There are dozens of proposals from people who would like to have work done. There is no point in the commission starting 50 research projects so there will have to be an element of prioritisation. I suspect a review of the 1997 Act will be one of those projects. It is a long-term priority. I know there are issues of concern to some NGOs in respect of some of the definitions in the Act, spending limits and all that. I heard that loud and clear as the Bill was going through the Houses during the past year.

The good thing about the research programme is that some of it will be done by in-house researchers but we will be in a position to identify specialists in niche areas. We can start a number of research projects at the same time. The chickens will come home to roost at various times in the course of the year. There are longer-term projects. The question around the provision in the Constitution to have one TD for every 20,000 to 30,000 people is something we probably need to look at. That is probably a longer-term project. There are some issues, such as postering, that have been identified as a priority for some. We might be able to deal with those issues relatively quickly.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

If a review of the Electoral Act 1997 is started early in the new year, the hope would be that it comes to completion during the year.

Mr. Barry Ryan

The intention would be for that to happen in the course of the year.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Mr. Ryan talked about work to reach groups that do not have as high a level of participation in the democratic processes as others. Is the hope that work will be completed during the year and some of that work will impact the work the commission does during the upcoming electoral cycles, or at least the general election?

Mr. Barry Ryan

We are in an evidence gathering phase. Like most nine-month-olds, we are crawling around on the floor, trying to listen to everything people are saying we should be doing. We are working on the active participation strategy, which will be a long-term, three- to five-year strategy. It will be an evolving document. Things we learn in the course of that strategy will impact our information and participation campaigns, and any PR we are doing. We will have a draft active participation strategy in quarter 1 of next year. This committee would probably like an opportunity to look at that strategy and we would welcome an engagement on the issue. It will inform all our work with electoral events in the next couple of years.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

I thank our guests for coming. In our pre-legislative scrutiny, we had a long, and at times tortuous, discussion about online political advertisements. We tended to focus on data management and protection when it comes to online political advertisement. In the past week or so, we have seen that outside actors for nefarious purposes are spreading disinformation online. That is particularly the case in the immigration sphere. In some respects, people are inciting activity. Let us consider an election. The commission is in place and in charge. A group is inciting people and asking them to go down to a particular centre. How is it proposed that the commission would handle that? Would it have any role in addressing that or would it simply refer the issue to the Garda? Have the witnesses thought about what the commission would do if that type of disinformation was being spread and how it would handle such a situation in the heat of an election campaign?

In our pre-legislative scrutiny, we focused on Facebook and its advertising, where it came from, when it was flagged and who paid for it. As we now know, other tools are out there and available to people, in particular channels such as Telegram. WhatsApp is another big means of communication. I know it significantly influenced one of the most recent Portuguese elections. Disinformation was spread around WhatsApp. Is it proposed that a team will be in place to monitor that? What tools are they engaging to monitor? Have outside experts been brought in? When is it anticipated that such a team will be in place? How many people will be on the team?

I will move to unregistered parties. Political parties have certain rules and the Labour Party is strict in sticking to those rules. The problem for the upcoming European and local elections, and this is going to be the first real challenge for the commission, will arise where there are unregistered political parties. I know the commission has two recently registered parties.

To follow up, and I hope I leave enough time for our guests to answer, security is a big concern. Massive barricades have gone up outside Leinster House. People are being put off putting their names on the ballot paper by the prospect of the publication of their home addresses. People are inciting. On Saturday, a list of the addresses of people was published and sent out, telling people to go off to those addresses. What steps is the commission taking to ensure that people who put their names on ballot papers are safe?

Mr. Art O'Leary

I thank the Senator. There is an awful lot in what she has asked. She used a specific example for incitement that would not be a matter for An Coimisiún Toghcháin. It would be a matter for Coimisiún na Meán to deal with as part of its online regulation. We are working purely in the electoral space. Even if something happens during an electoral period or campaign period, it does not necessarily mean that An Coimisiún Toghcháin is automatically responsible for it. We will, however, be working very closely with Coimisiún na Meán in this area.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

Will that include work on attempts to influence the electoral process?

Mr. Art O'Leary

Yes, it will include influencing or spreading disinformation. The definitions of "misinformation" and "disinformation" in the Act are very specific. They were intended to combat electoral information telling people falsehoods regarding polling times, votes not being counted or the electoral register being wrong. These are things which we can easily correct. However, not everything somebody says during an election campaign is disinformation in an electoral context. That is the difficulty in some of these challenges.

We do not yet know exactly what Part 5 will look like. I am not going to give any commitments one way or the other today, but we will be prepared for when Part 5 is finalised and commenced. In the first half of next year, we will be recruiting people to work with us in the area of monitoring. These will be digital natives who are comfortable working in the space and people accustomed to working in a regulatory environment with skills in that area.

The registration of political parties has been very busy since we started. We have registered a number of new parties in recent months. We currently have a couple of additional applications which are going through our consideration process. The register of political parties is available for everyone to see. At present there are 26 parties on it. There are four others, two of which I have indicated it is my intention to register. These are in the appeal period at the moment. It is likely that we will have at least 28 and perhaps more parties beforehand. We have not had any difficulties with unregistered political parties. There are people in all kinds of forums, groups and alliances claiming that they constitute a political party, but they do not. If this is causing any difficulty at all, we will deal with it.

Our colleagues in the Custom House have been looking at the issue of addresses on ballot papers.

Mr. Barry Ryan

The Chair will recall that last week on Committee Stage of the Electoral Reform Bill 2022 this issue was also discussed. I will describe how an address arrives on a ballot paper in the first place. This happens through the nomination process. The nomination paper is required to have a description of the candidate and it sets out the name, address and occupation. The provision in the legislation requires that the ballot paper has such a description of the candidate on it. There is a degree of flexibility in this regard. We see various iterations of addresses used on ballot papers. There is discretion for the returning officer to accept those. I have seen some people go as far as providing an Eircode but others do not. On the other hand, less accurate addresses are also accepted and indeed constituency offices are often used as addresses. The point is that there is a degree of flexibility as it is.

As Mr O'Leary mentioned, the research programme is out for consultation. If this is something members feel should be looked at by the commission and recommendations made on it in relation to having a specific provision in the legislation on that issue, then it could certainly be fed into the consultation process.

Mr. Art O'Leary

We should also note that the Ceann Comhairle's forum on enhancing participation in public life is currently sitting. We are coming to see the group in a couple of weeks and they will be reporting in March about some of the issues mentioned by the Senator. We look forward to seeing the recommendations to see what we can do to help. Obviously, public engagement and participation of all people in public life is something we are very keen to see.

Mr. Barry Ryan

The issue is about striking a balance between the voter having the information on candidates, and safety and security. It is a long-standing feature of the system. I looked it up and it goes back to the Electoral Act 1923, which did not require the address but required candidates to provide details of their abode, but that has changed over the years to the requirement to provide the address.

An Cathaoirleach

Things have moved on a little bit. On the issue of addresses on the ballot paper, it is important for the returning officer and for the process to have traceability as to who the candidate is. It might be necessary to find them if election posters have been left up, for example. That is why it is not a completely vague address. However, I question the necessity for it being so detailed, right down to Eircode, street and number for the voter to know. Surely electoral district or area would be sufficient. In any case, we will leave that to the researchers.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I thank the witnesses for the work they have done to get the legislation through. This has been far too long coming so it is good we are having this discussion. It is an enormous responsibility. All around the world democracy is being rivalled by autocracy. Here, our democracy is under attack on a daily basis. I do not think any of us should be blasé about this. We need to take the threat seriously. The responsibility on the members of the electoral commission to protect our democracy and ensure it stands up to serve our State is enormous.

The contributions we had in the discussion so far about the campaigning elements, postering and online activity are important. I guess we will wait for amendments Nos. 4 and 5 and we will return to that discussion.

The integrity of the ballot box and what goes into it and what comes out of it is important. The register of electors is what supposedly determines what goes into the box. There are 31 county councils, so there are 31 registers of electors. Of that, there are various categories of electors. From the commission's perspective, it will have the task of increasing voter participation. That is a laudable task. Some voter participation is more valuable than others, but the integrity of voter participation is important. Of the 31 registers of electors, what analysis has been done of them to determine their veracity and integrity? From this analysis, increased voter participation can be measured.

We discussed the operation of the polling stations when the legislation was going through. The polling stations are manned by presiding officers, appointed by the county sheriff. What are the qualifications required for the officers who operate the polling stations?

Ms Petra Woods

The combined total electorate is approximately 3.5 million people. As the Senator said, 31 registration authorities manage the register for their own administrative areas. We have been gathering some information from local authorities. Previously, we only had counts which were done annually and then a count of a supplement at an electoral event. We have been starting to gather some data on the quality of the information local authorities have. We are gathering information on PPSN, dates of birth, Eircodes and so on. We gather this information on a quarterly basis largely to see how effective our registration campaigns are. We have had approximately 156,000 applications through the various portals.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

What validation is being conducted on the existing 3 million supposed voters registered?

Ms Petra Woods

At this stage, we are leaving specific validation with the registration authorities. We are asking-----

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

The local authorities?

Ms Petra Woods

Yes.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

They have done none.

Ms Petra Woods

We are asking them to go out into their communities and engage with them.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Have any of them done it?

Ms Petra Woods

They have. They are working through. We provided them with a legislative framework that gives them the full year to work with. Often, they had to stop and start. They had a register, a draft and so on. They can now engage all year round with their communities. We provided them with funding in April this year to do additional activities to get more people to register and update their details. As I said, to date there have been 156,000 updates to the register spread across all local authorities.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

It sounds like the Department has done a lot of work in this space. Would it be possible to give us a report on the extent of the work, the funding provided, the local authorities that have engaged and what they have actually done? I am going to run out of time. My other question was about officers in polling stations.

Mr. Barry Ryan

They are recruited by individual returning officers, of whom there are 18 - I think that was the latest count nationwide, covering-----

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

What qualifications do they need?

Mr. Barry Ryan

Is the Senator referring to the presiding officers and poll clerks?

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I am referring to the people who are recruited to man polling stations.

Mr. Barry Ryan

None, to my knowledge. They are recruited by the returning officers to act as presiding officers and poll clerks.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Do they need to be able to read or write?

Mr. Barry Ryan

As I said, it is a matter for the returning officers.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Mr. Ryan is confirming what I know. The reality is there are no qualifying criteria. When it comes to actually operating the polling stations and ensuring the validity of what is taking place in the ballot box, there could be people who cannot communicate verbally or in any way with others. It is entirely on them to take action to ensure there is no voter impersonation and to engage a garda and ask him or her to arrest somebody engaging in voter impersonation. This is a weakness in our electoral process. That is before we get into the other complicated areas of campaigning.

Mr. Art O'Leary

An coimisiún has some functions which may be helpful in this regard. We have oversight of the electoral register as well. All of the registration authorities - the local authorities - will report to an coimisiún every year on the state, completeness and accuracy of the register. It is our job to get into the undergrowth concerning those figures. My colleague, Mr. Carey, will be available to talk to the committee about this afterwards. He is getting stuck into the detail of what that means on the ground.

On the second point, an coimisiún has responsibility after every election to conduct a review of the administration of that election. If the issue identified by the Senator is a real one, which I have no reason to doubt, it is our job to define that, call it out and find remedies.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

It is there. It is public information that the people who man our polling stations have no qualifications. They do not even need to be able to speak English or Irish. That is the reality. We can do a post-electoral review if we want but let us be honest with the public. That is the context within which our ballot boxes and democracy operate. It is a serious red flag. We need to do something about it before another election.

Mr. Barry Ryan

To be clear, I said it is the responsibility of the returning officer to recruit his or her staff. Traditionally, a large cohort of that staff comes from local authority or court services staff, where returning officers operate in their jobs.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

That is a valid point. I agree with Mr. Ryan. Traditionally, that is the case but we are at full employment. There is no sector that is not struggling to recruit. Every profession is struggling, even good professions with good pensionable jobs. One must ask how important our democracy is and how important the job we ask them to do is. We ask them to give a minimum of 16 hours, deal with the public and protect our democracy. We need to reflect on this.

An Cathaoirleach

My experience of polling stations is that the returning officers and presiding officers over them are really good and competent. They are always able to answer questions. We probably all have different experiences. I take note of the Senator's point.

Mr. Barry Ryan

The electoral commission is now in this space. We have always provided a full manual for presiding officers setting out their duties and the processes. The Senator is right; it is very onerous and can be detailed.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

There are 85 presiding officers, all of whom are drawn from the public service and are educated, qualified people with plenty of experience. Within each polling station, there are multiple tables and officers. Traditionally, political parties put people in - this tradition ended quite a long time ago - which meant there was some level of independent, or quasi-independent observation of what was going on in a polling station. I can say from my experience in Dublin that this no longer takes place and has not taken place for quite a number of elections in Dublin. If there are people who are unqualified - to be fair, they are giving their time - they might as well just be a warm pulse in some respects. It is a serious issue in our polling stations.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

We all have different experiences in the electoral contests in which we participate. I must say I have never experienced any of the challenges Senator Fitzpatrick has raised. I am not in any way suggesting her experience is not valid. I would hate for there to be a suggestion that there is a widespread problem with the competence and ability of people in polling stations. I have fought a lot of elections. I have lost far more than I won since I returned to Dublin in 2006. I have nothing but the highest regard for those who staff the polling stations. Often they are school teachers and principals. That was my experience in Dublin Mid-West and in Dún Laoghaire. Often, the people who provide the ballots and check IDs have years of experience because it is a day's work. They are often people in the public or private sector. It is something they do every year. I am not saying there should not be proper checks and qualifications, etc., but in my decade of electioneering in the South - I also had a decade of electioneering in the North - I have never experienced any of those problems. I am not dismissing it but I would argue that many of the people I come across in polling stations are eminently overqualified, taking a full day out of their work and doing the job they do, not necessarily for the money but because they believe it is a civic duty and it is important. I wish to make that observation.

To go back to the European Commission, the clarifications were very helpful. It would be helpful for the committee to get some of the substance of what has been going on. I know some of the communications are confidential and there is a certain degree of sensitivity around them. I am not asking for that to be breached. My understanding from the European Commission's position last year, with respect to Part 4, was that there were concerns around the criminal liability aspects being applied to online platforms. With respect to Part 5, it was to do with the information thresholds that would be required to impose those sanctions. This is related to the e-commerce directive. From the outside, it looks like it thought we were placing too onerous a responsibility on platforms both in information and liability and, therefore, the trajectory may be a weakening of the provisions of the Act. Can the Department provide additional information about the detail of those conversations or where it is going? It is an important matter. I do not necessarily share as many of the concerns as other members. There are things that make me angry that are damn real. Homelessness makes me angry. I know that is not what was suggested but when we think about regulation of speech and claims in elections, we must also be mindful that there is a fine line between the cut and thrust of any election campaign ever fought and deliberate disinformation in campaigns.

Senator Fitzpatrick and I slug it out on TV and radio stations accusing each other of giving out misinformation regularly, but it could also be that both of us have passionately conflicting views on a particular matter, and let us be honest about it. At the same time, it is still important for this committee, which is a public forum, to get some sense of the toing and froing between the Department and the Commission and where it is likely to land, inasmuch as Mr. Ryan can share that with us.

Mr. Barry Ryan

Following the notification and the detailed opinion that was issued by the Commission on Part 4, we engaged with it. To break it down, there were two main issues in its detailed opinion in respect of Part 4. The Deputy is right. It was around those thresholds that existed in the e-commerce directive. National legislation clearly has to comply with European law. In this case, the e-commerce directive. One of the issues was that the Commission was arguing that we were imposing a general monitoring obligation upon online platforms that would run counter to the provisions in the e-commerce directive. The second issue was that in the context of the e-commerce directive, we were imposing a threshold of reasonable grounds in the legislative provision we had in Part 4. That is where our focus was in the discussions with the Commission in respect of the very specific issues with Part 4 vis-à-vis the e-commerce directive.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

If we were having a conversation say about short-term letting, those issues would very much be live because the latter is a commercial activity and the EU has very specific competence in areas of that nature, which is why we have the e-commerce directive. The European Union has no competence in the context of how we manage and run our electoral system. Again, I am aware Mr. Ryan cannot tell me what the Attorney General may or may not have advised but was legal opinion sought by the Department to see, specifically on the regulation of online activity during elections as elections, that this was subject to the same provisions of the e-commerce directive as other areas of commercial activity? It seems to be quite a distinct area and one for which the European Union has no responsibility or competence.

Mr. Barry Ryan

The real issue here, and where it brings it into the e-commerce directive, is the fact that we were regulating paid-for political advertising online. This was a very specific provision relating to advertising that was paid for and so that is the commercial element.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

And that was legal advice the Department sought and received.

Mr. Barry Ryan

Well, yes. In fairness------

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

We know that the Commission will argue for whatever it wants to do. We also know that it has a long history of mission creep. Is the Irish Government satisfied that that proposition is legally appropriate?

Mr. Barry Ryan

We were satisfied that it did fall-----

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Was that advice from the Office of the Attorney General or was it independent legal advice?

Mr. Barry Ryan

In the context of drafting the legislation, we were obviously working closely with the Attorney General's office.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Sure, but the Department was working with the legislation. The legislation we got contains a set of provisions that have merit. However, the Commission is arguing that they are too strong. I know Mr. Ryan cannot confirm this but I will say it anyway. Clearly, the Attorney General's advice when we got the amendments was that they were fine, but then the Commission interjected and said "No". What I am asking is, at that point, after the reasoned opinion was issued by the Commission, if subsequent legal advice was sought by Government to contest or validate the Commission's view that the e-commerce directive was relevant? I accept that it is paid advertising, but it is paid in the context of elections. Everybody would accept that elections hey are in a very different sphere of regulatory responsibility from the general economy. My worry is that the power of big tech in lobbying the European Parliament and the European Commission is far greater than the power here. They did come before the committee and gave us their views, but there was a fair amount of consensus that we wanted the strongest possible regulation. In fact, many of us were disappointed that what was being put in front of us was weak. It was a decent start. My worry is we have a directive that might not be the most appropriate legal avenue for the Commission to water down what were originally Government proposals.

I have another concern. Obviously, the EU provides a floor of regulation. Was legal opinion sought to discover whether, as long as the Government did not go below that floor but sought to go above it and have even stronger regulations, in the context of elections, that would be permitted legally? These are very important legal questions.

Mr. Barry Ryan

Yes. This brings us to some extent to the second point I was making. The second element of this is that the EU's regulation on political advertising that I mentioned is almost across the line. Therefore, in some respects-----

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

This regulation may not have the same level of applicability during an election period as outside one depending on how primary responsibility for the competence of election regulation is ceded. The only reason I am raising this matter is because it will become increasingly important for the Electoral Commission as well.

Mr. Barry Ryan

I accept that but, ultimately, any suite of amendments that may be made to Part 4 will have regard - in terms of moving on from the original concerns around the e-commerce directive - to making sure that it is in compliance with the new EU regulation that is in place.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I suppose my question was whether subsequent legal advice was sought by the Department post the recent opinion on those related matters.

Mr. Barry Ryan

We were working with the Attorney General's office all the time in respect of those matters.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

That sounds like a very diplomatic answer. Not a "Yes" and not a "No".

Mr. Barry Ryan

No, we were.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Did it seek legal advice on the specific legal questions about which I am asking?

Mr. Barry Ryan

Yes, we would have.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I thank Mr. Ryan.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I have two questions and they overlap in both the witnesses' areas of responsibility. I will address my first question to Mr. O'Leary. It relates to the Electoral Commission's research consultation. We know from the Department's submission that the programme for Government contains commitments in the context of examining a number of issues. We know this anyway, but the Department has decided to tell us again today. The issues to be examined are: examining the Scottish experience and reducing the voting age; the use of posters in elections and referenda; the use of postal voting with a view to extending it; the replacement of by-elections with an alternative list system - interestingly, by-elections seem to be definitely on the way in a matter of months; and the limitations on people who are temporarily living outside the State as to the amount of time they should remain on the electoral register. These commitments are in the programme for Government. Clearly, the function of the Department is to drive Government policy in conjunction with the relevant Ministers.

Will Mr. O'Leary share with the committee what he has done on that matter to date, or if he has initiated anything? There may be an overlap, clearly, with the commission's work. Is it a given for Mr. O'Leary in terms of the Electoral Commission? This is the Government's stated policy. Of course, the Government has a lot of stated policy but it does not necessarily see it all through. I have yet to see any programme for Government that delivered 80% of its programme, not to mention 100%. Has the Government a particular fast track into the commission's system or is it in the pool like everybody else? I do not know, and I want to clarify that. The two questions are the same, but they come at that matter from different angles. The commission clearly has a mandate to push on and not sit on its laurels within the Department. It is working to a Government programme. The commission is established, and it may not see that order of events as being a priority. Does the commission have that discretion or is it effectively mandated by Government? Before I finish, I will touch on an election which we have not really spoken about at all. I refer to the Seanad election.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

How could we forget?

Senator Victor Boyhan

Seanad Éireann has an election that is run internally. It is a most unusual election because the bulk of the Members of the Seanad are elected by politicians. It is, quite frankly, a very difficult place to get elected to because, for starters, you have to canvass politicians. There is oversight of that process. Ballot papers are sent out in brown paper envelopes that are subject to being torn apart of delivered when it is raining. Who is overseeing that, ensuring the privacy of the ballot box and ensuring that there is no one over your head deciding who or what you are voting for? Who seals the thing and who delivers it? We are going through a system run by An Post that cannot absolutely guarantee that these ballad papers are returned. There is a huge issue there.

I want to be very clear that I am not casting aspersions or questioning anything that has been done in the past or how it has been done. My experience of the process is that it has been done well, but we have to move with the times. Is this whole election and the conduct of if something that the commission has even talked about? Is it something the Department has talked about? Is it something on which the commission has engaged with the Houses and the Clerks to the Houses? Clearly, there are constitutional provisions for the way an election is conducted so there may be a need for referenda on changes there. It is a space at which one needs to look. I do not have all the answers but the process certainly needs to be modernised. Will Mr. O'Leary share his thoughts on that matter, and more importantly, on how he will interact with both Departments and with the Seanad office? Will he indicate if he has any plans in that regard?

Mr. Art O'Leary

An Coimisiún Toghcháin is absolutely independent of Government. As the Senator knows, there is a provision in the Act whereby the Minister can request us to conduct research, etc., but, ultimately, this will be the commission's research programme. When the closing date for submissions is reached, the commission will decide its priorities for the research programme.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Good.

Mr. Art O'Leary

It sounds to me as if they are reasonable. The Minister wrote to us during the summer to say he would like us to have a look at the issues the Senator mentioned. This is why they are in the draft programme. The commission will make a decision on this in the context of other, wider priorities and additional priorities as well. As I said, our ambition could be quite broad. We can start a number of research projects and each of them will finish in due course, but we will send the research programme to this committee as soon as it has been decided, some time after the February date.

On Seanad oversight, we have responsibility for the post-electoral reviews of Seanad Éireann elections. In the recent Heneghan case, we all got to see much more about how Seanad elections are conducted than perhaps can be good for anybody, but it is a role we will take seriously. As the Senator said, Seanad elections are unusual. They is not typical, so it requires a particular approach to be able to have a look at them as well. They are very much on our radar some time in the next year and a half before we have a Seanad election.

Senator Victor Boyhan

At best. It could be earlier.

Mr. Art O'Leary

Yes. Whenever it is, that is the time we will conduct the review. We are obliged to have the results of the review laid before the Houses within six months of the electoral event, so there will not be any delay on our part in dealing with that too and making recommendations where we feel oversight or change is necessary.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I have one follow-up question before moving to the officials from the Department. Where the Minister writes to the commission, as provided for in the legislation, to request it carry out research, does it publish those letters? How does the public know what the Minister is requesting of the commission?

Mr. Art O'Leary

I think it is in research programme. We have identified some of the issue which were-----

Senator Victor Boyhan

Yes, but this is about openness and transparency, which is critical in light of all the other considerations the commission has owing to the nature of its work. How does the public looking in know the Minister has written to the commission to request research? Is that via circular? How does the public know?

Mr. Art O'Leary

We did not tell the public because-----

Senator Victor Boyhan

No, but the public would be interested.

Mr. Art O'Leary

Yes, but it is part of the research programme process as we gather up things that are ultimately published that we did publish. The letter made its way into the public domain, because it was the cause of many letters to The Irish Times during the quiet month of August. There were issues, especially around by-elections, etc. It is certainly something we should have a look at, perhaps, and be a little more transparent around that too.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Yes, it is about the commission adopting an open and transparent policy. All this documentation, to and from anyone, as part of this consultation should be available for inspection on the commission's website. It is a good idea, within the constraints the commission may have to operate within.

Mr. Art O'Leary

I do not disagree with the Senator at all.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I thank Mr. O'Leary. I put the same points to the officials from the Department.

Mr. Barry Ryan

I do not disagree with any of that. The Minister was on record, mainly as the Bill was going through the Houses, as saying he would ask the commission to look at a range of issues. As Mr. O'Leary said, that is what he did during the summer and they are the issues set out in the programme for Government, beyond the commitment to establish an electoral commission already realised by the Electoral Reform Act. They are all there in the draft programme and as Mr. O'Leary said it is a matter for the commission to prioritise that after January.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Does the Department have any role in the Seanad election?

Mr. Barry Ryan

The main role for the Department is legislative. There are the two items of legislation, namely, the Seanad Electoral (University Members) Act 1937 and the Seanad Electoral (Panel Members) Act 1947. Consideration has to be given to introducing amendments regrading the finding of unconstitutionality the Supreme Court in respect of the 1937 Act. There are independent returning officers there, both in the context of the university panel and the other panels. There are independent returning officers who run the election. That is the role subsequently for the Electoral Commission with the post-electoral event reviews. All electoral events are listed, but it includes the Seanad elections. The commission will have a role in reporting on the operation of those after each one.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I understand that, but clearly the Department is the parent Department when it comes to elections. If there was a by-election, the Seanad would pass a resolution instructing the Clerk to inform the Minister there is a vacancy. Otherwise, it cannot happen.

Mr. Barry Ryan

Yes.

Senator Victor Boyhan

The Department is aware of all that. Has it been involved? Has there been any proactive work or suggestions relating to the conduct of the Seanad elections that Mr. Ryan is aware of.

Mr. Barry Ryan

Not that I am aware of in relation to the conduct of Seanad elections.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I mean the process, not the conduct.

Mr. Barry Ryan

Not beyond the recent issues around electing the university Senators. Nothing beyond that. The Senator is right the role for the Minister here is to set the polling day order, effectively, after the notifications. After that, it is the returning officer who takes over the running of the election.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I thank the Cathaoirleach.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. O'Leary listed what a potentially busy electoral period we have over the two years ahead, with eight electoral events. I only count seven. Which one am I missing?

Mr. Art O'Leary

We have the local and European elections next year, the Dáil and Seanad elections, a presidential election, a number of referendums, the directly-elected mayor for Limerick and perhaps a plebiscite of the people of Dublin on whether there should be a directly elected mayor. Depending on the outcome of some of these other elections, we may have Seanad and Dáil by-elections on top of that too.

An Cathaoirleach

I see. Mr. O'Leary meant voting events, not necessarily electoral events.

Mr. Art O'Leary

They are all electoral events.

An Cathaoirleach

Are they classed as that? Even referendums.

Mr. Art O'Leary

Referendums, perhaps are.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Do not forget the Údarás na Gaeltachta elections next year.

Mr. Art O'Leary

We do not have responsibility for those. Not yet anyway.

An Cathaoirleach

Returning to the research strategy, there are a number of high-level issues talked about there. Obviously, the commission will assess what comes in from the public consultation. Something may spring from that which the commission had not considered and it may decide to take a look. The commission will get these in by, say, 12 January and go through its assessment. When it produces its final strategy, will it set out what it is going to prioritise and a rough timeframe for addressing that?

Mr. Art O'Leary

Indeed. That is spelled out in the legislation as well, as the Chairman knows, including the cost of the research. That will be an opportunity for us to identify the priorities, the timeframe and the cost. This is a report the committee will receive sometime in quarter 1.

An Cathaoirleach

Let us say there is to be a general election next October, November or whenever - everybody is guessing different dates for it. Could the commission reasonably have made a recommendation by that point around postering? The commission will be making recommendations, but it will be up to the Oireachtas to legislate to put those into action.

Mr. Art O'Leary

Yes. Some of the recommendations might have constitutional implications as well, certainly around voting age and perhaps with the 20,000 to 30,000 figure I mentioned earlier. They are just recommendations. Deputy Ó Broin asked whether we as an agency had sufficient powers, etc. The real test of whether this organisation is going to be taken seriously relates to what happens to recommendations we make. There is a long history, perhaps, of agencies and bodies making recommendations that are ignored, but this is something we will take seriously and will, I suppose, affect the level of ambition of our future research programme.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

That is the most diplomatic use of the word "perhaps" that the committee has heard in quite some time.

An Cathaoirleach

I will make a submission, but the listing of addresses of candidates on ballot papers is something I would like to see dealt with. I do not know whether we will be able to do it in time for the local and European elections, but it is a vexed question. There could at least be guidance provided to candidates applying on what they can put down.

A little further on, because it probably will not be for the forthcoming election, is the issue of six-seater constituencies.

I would love to know if the members of the Electoral Commission sat around and said to each other that if only six-seater constituencies had been permissible, it would have been possible to get the boundary changes done much faster or in a less disruptive kind of way.

Mr. Art O'Leary

We were not allowed to.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, I know. The commission was constrained by the Electoral Reform Act 2022, which only allowed for constituencies with three, four or five seats. I drew up my own version of six-seater constituencies anyway.

Mr. Art O'Leary

To make a comment in an effort to be helpful, undoubtedly having six-seater constituencies would have resulted in a very different landscape emerging from the recent constituency review. When a five-seater constituency becomes too big, when it has a population too big to remain in that configuration, we only have two choices. We can cut the constituency in two or we can hack off a piece and give it to the neighbouring constituency. There is nothing else we can do. In the cases of Wexford, Fingal and Tipperary, we had to make difficult decisions. One of the most difficult of these decisions was in the constituency of Carlow-Kilkenny. The 6,314 people living in Urlingford and Freshford are now voting in Tipperary North. In the context of the number of three-seat constituencies, which rose from nine to 13, seven of these arose from our inability to make six-seaters. It is not for me now to say whether this is a good idea or not. The Oireachtas, in its wisdom, has said there should only be constituencies with three, four and five seats. This is in the draft research programme and we will have a look at it. It certainly has the potential to greatly alter the electoral landscape.

An Cathaoirleach

It certainly does. Depending on what is done with constituencies, the result could alter the outcome of an election. Depending on the formation of the next Dáil, as well, if the commission were to come up with a report recommending six-seaters, it may not suit the Oireachtas at that time to move to them. Anyway, I suppose that is democracy for you.

Mr. Art O'Leary

We never had six-seaters in this country-----

An Cathaoirleach

I know, yes.

Mr. Art O'Leary

-----but we have had constituencies with seven, eight and nine seats up until the mid-1940s. If six-seat constituencies do become a reality, then the next mountain to climb will be constituencies with more than six seats. It is never expressed in these terms, but our population is growing at a rate of two TDs a year. This conversation around constituency size and the number of TDs is something we really need to have, outside the white-hot heat of a general election campaign. It is, therefore, something likely to be revisited by the next Government after the 2024 or 2025 general election.

An Cathaoirleach

True. I refer as well to a constitutional change concerning the ratio of people to TDs. If this were to happen, then it might not be necessary to move to constituencies with six seats. It might be possible to go back to what we have previously.

Mr. Art O'Leary

Yes. That will require a constitutional change, as will elements like voting at 16, so these are longer-term projects.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes. I am conscious the research areas the Electoral Commission is going to work on may be important to a certain cohort of people but not to others. Some people may just not be concerned that they are now in a constituency with three, five or six seats. However, if you are a candidate in one of those areas, this is going to be of great interest. There is also the issue of posters. Some people do not mind postering at all. They like it. They like the sense of occasion it brings to the election. Other people I know are really concerned about the environmental waste from so much plastic and from cable ties. In the context of the Tidy Towns competition, we found cable ties that had been left up since the last election. There is also the road traffic aspect from the perspective of the splurge of postering that goes on.

I would not ban election posters at all - I think they raise awareness of an election - but we should curtail the amount of postering. I am of the view that something like 50 posters per municipal district, or something like 200 posters for a four-seater constituency and 250 posters for a five-seater constituency, is reasonable. If there is a level playing field like that, then every poster will have the same impact. There will be no need for candidates to put up five posters of their face on the same pole. I would love to see something coming forward quickly on this issue. One of the worst parts of any election is trying to put up election posters, and then take them down as well. Ask anyone. Senator Fitzpatrick wishes to come back in again.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I agree completely with the Cathaoirleach. I urge the Electoral Commission to be enthusiastic and ambitious and to sort out the issue of posters, before the next election if possible. It is environmentally bad. It has a distorting effect. I do not think we should ban them entirely. They do, of course, have a value. A reasonable limit should be set, though, and a level playing field ensured. If we care about our democracy, then let us try to ensure some fairness in this space too.

Returning to the polling stations and the polling officers business, I think Deputy Ó Broin makes a fair point. I do not want to malign the people who have been working in and staffing our polling stations. That is not my intention. I hope the representatives of the Electoral Commission will agree, though, that the role of presiding over the casting of the ballots in each polling station is an important one. I am curious to understand how the commission will do a post-election review of what happens in each polling station. What are the plans for this? How will this work in practice?

Mr. Art O'Leary

On the postering issue, I do not want to go back over the pros and cons that we went through earlier, except perhaps to say that the people in favour of postering are in favour because they think it gives an opportunity to new candidates to get their faces out into the community. Incumbents are favoured in elections. It is also the only way some people know elections are on. The Cathaoirleach mentioned Tidy Towns' committees earlier. Some of those can be self-regulatory in this regard. They tell candidates that no posters will be allowed in certain sections of towns and villages.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

We should aim for a level playing field and we should not leave this to Tidy Towns' groups to undertake.

Mr. Art O'Leary

I absolutely agree. As I said, all these issues will be ventilated in our research document and in our recommendations. If it is a real priority, I suspect these will appear sometime in the early part of next year.

On the post-election review, we are working through what this might look like. It will be the case, at the very least, that every member of the staff of the Electoral Commission will be in polling stations and on the ground in count centres all over the country. The Electoral Commission members said they would like to get involved in seeing things-----

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

How many members are there?

Mr. Art O'Leary

There are seven. A whole lot of us will be in polling stations looking at issues. After that, we will be seeking submissions from people on what went well and what did not go well. We would like to hear about the experiences of individuals. This is especially the case after we engaged recently with the National Disability Authority and heard about people who have had trouble accessing polling stations. We would like to hear about their experience too, and whether it went well or not.

The ambition here is vast, though, because it encompasses the administration of the electoral event, from the time people tried to get themselves on the electoral register and could not, to the polling card never having arrived, difficulties arising in getting a ballot paper, because of a lack of ID, or whatever the issue might be. We would like to hear about all these experiences. We can then build up a database of events as they happen and issues that need to be dealt with.

I am not sure how widespread the issue mentioned by the Senator earlier might be. This is the first time anyone has ever mentioned it to me, but it is something I will be keen to ensure is dealt with properly.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

If there are seven members of the commission, then I think, with the best will in the world, if they were to get to five polling stations, this would still not be a whole lot of observation. I do not think this is sufficient.

Mr. Art O'Leary

It depends on how you select polling stations as well. I agree with the Senator, though-----

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

There must be 30 polling stations alone in the constituency of Dublin Central. This is only one constituency, and there are 49 of them. This approach is wholly insufficient. To be relying then on anecdotal, unqualified submissions from the public is also wholly inadequate.

Mr. Art O'Leary

We will also be getting submissions from returning officers, polling workers, candidates-----

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

That will help.

Mr. Art O'Leary

All the stakeholders in the process will have an opportunity to comment on their experience of the electoral event. The hope is that we would be able to do something that will again make a difference. We should be able to make recommendations for the enhancement of the electoral process in due course.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Okay. Will the commission, from this perspective, give consideration to taking any action in terms of establishing a minimum qualification for people working in polling stations and for the instructions and training to be provided to them, or is this something the committee needs to write to the commission and request?

Is that something that we as a committee need to write to the commission to request?

Mr. Art O'Leary

If it is an issue, it is certainly something within the scope of our post-electoral review. When it comes to dealing with it, arranging the training, etc., the administration of the election remains with the Custom House and our colleagues in the Department but it is not beyond us to make recommendations on this area if it is a very real issue that needs to be dealt with.

Mr. Barry Ryan

From time to time, we do have independent election observation missions, particularly from the Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights, which is part of the OSCE. They have been here from time to time. I am not suggesting that they can get to every single polling station either but we have had independent election observation missions in the past.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Returning to the register of electors, I was struck by Mr. O’Leary’s point that our population is growing at two TDs a year. Some 150,000 of 3 million or so is roughly 5% variation to the register of electors. Is the 5% by which it has varied additions, deletions or changes?

Ms Petra Woods

It is about half and half. About half are new registrations and half are updates of existing registrations. One of the things that makes it a little bit difficult at the moment is that we have two different systems in operation across local authorities. The four Dublin ones are already working on one shared system, on voter.ie, and the other 27 have individual set ups. Checktheregister.ie as a portal works for all of them. We have done some work to integrate the process of people moving between local authorities so that two local authorities are notified. That was previously quite a manual process where you get a form, do the necessary and then send it on to the other local authority. We have done some work to make sure that is a little more automatic and a little easier for local authorities to manage and keep track of. There are significant improvements but I suppose the big one will come when the national system, which we have also provided for under the Electoral Reform Act, is up and running. That will be an expansion of the existing voter.ie operating in Dublin and all local authorities will come to use that system once it is ready. The procurement around that is under way at the moment and expected to be finished in 2026.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

So that is after the election. There are two categories of registers, outside of Dublin and in Dublin. Of the 150,000 or so changes, how do they split between those two? Are the majority Dublin or outside Dublin? It is fine if Ms Woods does not know that.

Ms Petra Woods

I will send the Senator that information. We have got reports, figures and so on. We get more regular updates from checktheregister.ie because we are involved in that. The Dublin local authorities tend to do quite well. A lot of our inputs are through MyGovID which is very helpful. They introduce the PPSN check too which increased their numbers because it became easier for people to engage.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

To follow on Senator Fitzpatrick’s point about polling stations, I think I have 17. On a general election day, I get through every one of those at least three times. With seven people, I am not saying you will get the whole country but you will get a good random selection.

Mr. Art O'Leary

There are seven members of the commission but there will be 30 staff on the commission as well. If everyone does a couple of dozen polling stations, we should be able to get a good sense.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

If it is representatively selected, one could actually get a very good sense.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

You would get a good sense of what the footfall is. I do all the polling stations too and I get a sense of it. I get a sense of the traffic. I have been doing polling stations all my life and I can get a sense of whether the numbers are up for a time of the day or are down that time of the day. Unless I am sitting at a table watching who is coming in voting, who has come in twice or three times or who is actually local to the area-----

Mr. Art O'Leary

No, we are never going to do that-----

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I am not suggesting that you do.

Mr. Art O'Leary

-----but we will be there with clipboards, checklists, etc. We will be looking at accessibility and at all those kinds of things.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

What we need is a system that actually does that. It should not be reliant on spot checks.

An Cathaoirleach

This is Deputy Ó Broin’s time.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Sorry.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Let us be very clear. I do not see any set of circumstances where we go back to the days where two or three political parties had the volume of people to do those independent verifications. I would love if that was possible but it is not. I think the point Mr. O’Leary is making is important. With that team of staff, so long as the staff know what they are looking for and are trained and briefed, you could do really important work. I have done election observation. When we go to a polling station we are going in looking for something particular and we get that the commission’s folks will be doing something different. I do not think the numbers are as problematic, although that is not the point I wanted to make.

Turning to research, this is not to tell the commission its job because the people here know it already, but we need an evidence base for the decisions we all have to make. I am really fed up with the poster debate. We all have a strong opinion but there is no evidence there. What will be very valuable is for the commission to evidence something. I share the Chair’s view. I use fewer posters than almost any other candidate in my constituency. It has never caused me a problem in Dublin Mid-West. I think regulations on numbers, locations and materials is the right way to go. I have listened very carefully to the political scientists, and not to politicians, on posters. When you talk to Professor Jane Suiter, Professor David Farrell and those people, they make the argument about participation. However, it would be really nice to have some independent evidence base to say whether any of us is correct or whether we are talking off the tops of our heads, and then to make recommendations and decisions on that basis. It is the same with the constituencies because, like the Chair, I think there are strong merits for the commission being allowed to make that decision and not to have the terms of reference constrained. For me, the kind of evidence is what difference does it make. If someone in a portion of Carlow, for example, becomes part of Tipperary, that has real consequences.

I am in a constituency, Dublin Mid-West, and the poor people of Saggart and Brittas are moved in every boundary review. Often they are in one area for local elections and another for general elections and what happens is they are forgotten. They get ignored because they are a small peripheral part, numbers-wise. Their experience will be that they are less well served. Fingal is less an issue because other than the name, which is a separate issue, the majority of people will probably not experience anything differently. The good people of Fingal might take exception to that but in the Carlow case, it is a really significant issue because of their level of representation, particularly in large geographical areas where candidates tend to be concentrated in the bigger population centres.

To emphasise the Chair’s point, I am thinking about the representativeness of the subsequent parliament. Obviously, I am in one of the three big parties. Electorally, we will benefit from the increase in the three-seaters, if all things remain equal, but we argued very strongly in tabled amendments, as did other parties, that we should not tie the commission’s hands and that it should have that choice. Because there is a strong argument to say the representativeness of a parliament can sometimes be diminished if there are too many lower-seat constituencies in terms of the plurality of opinions. Again, however, I would like to see some evidence of that. Is that actually the case? We can all have nice philosophical arguments in here. That research function will be really important because if it does not end those debates, it might at least give an evidence base for decisions. That is why I think that research function is so important. I am sure the commission paid attention to it. We had very long debates here about the long list of research functions we wanted to give the committee. We wanted to insert some of those things into the legislation. We will all make submissions. Some of the issues are more obvious priorities than others. I look forward to engaging with the committee further on that once the consultation is closed.

Mr. Art O'Leary

I am delighted the Deputy mentioned data. This has been a bug bear of mine for 30 years now. As a nation, we have not yet developed enough data to be able to make decisions on this. Political parties with manifestoes get elected and say all the things they are going to do in government, etc., then they engage with stakeholders, the Civil Service, etc., and that produces policy. One of the foundation stones of the draft research programme is the longitudinal study that we are recommending. That is where we will start building the data the Deputy talks about. I do not like exit polls. I know they are a great predictor of electoral outcomes but they talk to people who vote.

Nobody talks to people who do not vote right now. This is what we will do with the longitudinal study, and this is something that will hopefully continue long after I am gone. What we are talking about here is a 25-year study where we build a database of information and data on which we can make proper decisions regarding electoral reform. It is so important. We will start this next year. It is something I am really keen to do. It will be a very important point as we will talk to thousands of people after electoral events, and not just people who voted. We will also do trackers during the year to ask people whether they know there are elections coming up, the key issues are facing them, etc. We have a tender advertisement out at the moment for a national electoral and democracy study management board. We are looking for some really talented experts in this area, including academics. We will have an international expert as well. The group will probably be chaired by me because this is a significant priority. To my mind, it is the jewel in the crown of the research programme.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

We support that fully. We have some of Europe's leading scholars in this area who spend a very significant amount of time in other jurisdictions relaying to their expertise. Exit studies have a huge value. Mr. O'Leary is absolutely right; any longitudinal study also needs to be able to talk to the people who do not vote. In the testimony we got from the political science community via Dr. Theresa Reidy, Professor David Farrell and others, in fact, one of the things they certainly impressed upon me was that there was a period during the Celtic tiger when there was more money. Significant amounts of State funding were put into exit polls that tell us not just the result of the election. They actually have a volume of data that is so important, but that data is only valuable if it is repeated over a longitudinal period as well. Therefore, I urge Mr. O'Leary to not discount that deeper level of exit polling study as part of that wider project. Again, Dr. Reidy, Professor Farrell and others made the case to us at committee that it is as important to try to identify those people who do not vote and identify why they do not vote and engage with them over periods of time or ask why people vote in certain types of elections and not others. Our turnout in local elections is 10 or 15 percentage points lower, depending on the particular election, than a general election. That is really good news because that would be a hugely important element of the commission's work.

Mr. Art O'Leary

I agree with the Deputy. I was not trying to devalue the work that is done on exit polling. It was just to indicate that 30% of our electorate do not vote. I have been a fan of this for years. When I worked in this parish many years ago, I wondered how the communications fund managed to syphon off a large chunk of funding to help support the electoral project that was being done by Professor Michael Marsh and now Dr. Reidy and Professor Farrell. This data is so important. When we start getting that data, it should be able to give members enough ammunition in the Oireachtas to make proper, well-intentioned, evidenced-based decisions regarding further electoral reform.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Ó Broin. Senator Fitzpatrick will make a final point.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I thank all the witnesses very much for their participation today. The longitudinal study is great, and I am a huge supporter. Data is where we need to be. Could Mr. O'Leary share with us, not today but before the commission finalises the data set for that longitudinal study, the various data parameters it is going to try to capture with it?

Mr. Art O'Leary

We will be happy to do that. As part of our transparency function, everybody gets to see everything in our building.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I am suggesting we have it before it is finalised because it would be really interesting for us to see, and we may have some suggestions.

Mr. Art O'Leary

We will be happy to do that.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I thank Mr. O'Leary.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Senator Fitzpatrick. I thank Mr. O'Leary and his team for their contributions and Mr. Ryan and his team for their assistance to us. The committee would be really interested in continued engagement with the Electoral Commission, especially after it has assessed the consultations to the draft strategy and produced the final strategy. The fact that we have created this independent commission indicates how much we value and understand the importance of having democracy. We sometimes forget that in other countries, they do not have a democracy. They do not get to choose how to vote. Their politics, where it exists, is interfered with and in some cases, people do not get the right to criticise governments or those who have been elected. We should always value and protect that democracy as much as we possibly can.

Mr. Art O'Leary

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I look forward to much criticism then in the future. I welcome that.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Mr. Ryan will tell Mr. O'Leary we are not all bad at the committee; we are very constructive.

Mr. Art O'Leary

I very much look froward to this committee's submission on items for draft research. Members had such an engaged conversation around this issue as part of the passage of the Electoral Reform Bill and there were some great ideas there too. We look forward to hearing whatever members think should be a priority for us next year.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. O'Leary. I will now adjourn the meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.15 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 5 December 2023.