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Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 5 Dec 2023

General Scheme of the Residential Tenancies (Right to Purchase) Bill: Discussion

We are meeting to begin our pre-legislative scrutiny of the general scheme of the residential tenancies (right to purchase) Bill 2023. Apologies have been received from Deputy O'Donoghue and Senator Boyhan. To assist us in our deliberations on the heads of the Bill, we are joined by representatives from the Irish Property Owners' Association, namely, Mr. Brendan Allen and Mr. Maurice Deverell. We are joined by the following representatives from Threshold: Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly and Mr. Zak Murtagh. From the Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers we are joined by Mr. Patrick Davitt, Mr. John Kennedy and Ms Valerie Mogerley. They are all very welcome. The opening statements and background documentation have been circulated among members.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, to participate in public meetings. Witnesses attending in the committee room are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy and it is my duty, as Chair, to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

For witnesses attending remotely, there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a person who is physically present.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The opening statements of witnesses will be published on our committee's website after the meeting. I invite the witnesses to make their opening statements, starting with those from the IPOA, followed by those from Threshold and IPAV.

Mr. Maurice Deverell

We are grateful for the opportunity to speak to the committee today, on behalf of the membership of the Irish Property Owners' Association, on the critical matter of the general scheme of the residential tenancies (right to purchase) Bill.

The IPOA is a not-for-profit organisation that seeks to protect and promote the interests of private residential property owners and encourage the supply of good-quality accommodation and professional standards of property management. The IPOA is a national association and represents landlords throughout Ireland, from owners of a single property to owners of multiple properties.

At present, tenants are free to bid on properties on the open market like every other citizen. Indeed, many tenants have purchased from their landlords. Local authorities are also able to compete on the open market. When a tenant wishes to buy a property from a landlord, and a landlord wishes to sell, it is discussed between both parties, and if a deal can be done, a deal is done. This arrangement, which is not uncommon, saves estate agent fees, advertising, time and the potential costs of staging a property for sale. It benefits both parties and does not need a change in law to make it happen.

The issue facing the rental market is the lack of supply. Investors assist the State in its obligation to house people by providing homes in rental accommodation. Without investors willing to purchase, there is no private rental market. This legislation could end up worsening the already severe shortage of housing units faced by the rental market in Ireland. Landlords will be discouraged from investing in rental properties if their ability to freely sell them is restricted. This, in turn, could further diminish the available rental supply, exacerbating the current housing crisis. This legislation could also lead to unintended consequences that could make the process of selling a rental more difficult, in the case of default by the mortgagor. The risk to the financial institution is increased, which is likely to increase the interest rate.

This legislation may make it impossible for a landlord to secure vacancy of their property to prepare it for viewing and sale. This legislation will be unfair to private buyers who may invest significant resources, such as surveyors' fees and legal expenses, secure mortgage approval and then enter a contract in the expectation of acquiring a property. This proposal, however, introduces the possibility that their efforts could be superseded at the last minute by a tenant making a final matching bid. As a result, this legislation will, in effect, make auctions unfeasible. The hammer coming down will no longer have any effect if a buyer can be subsequently denied the right to purchase by a tenant's matching bid. This will deprive a landlord of availing of the auction option to sell a property and does not protect owners in situations where properties are in receivership. Another consequence is that properties whose occupants are in nursing homes would become unlikely to be let in view of the restrictions on selling proposed in this legislation.

What happens if a tenant's mortgage approval falls through? Any homeowner would prefer to sell to a cash buyer rather than a mortgage buyer for numerous reasons. What happens at the end of the process if both a cash offer and a tenant's mortgage offer are equal? If the tenant's mortgage approval fails and the cash buyer is gone, will the State compensate the seller?

What happens if a tenant seeks to vexatiously stall a sale by initially offering €1 for the property and then tries again to stall the process at the end? This may happen only very rarely but landlords must nonetheless be assured of protection under the law. Since landlords must provide a statutory declaration when selling, it would seem appropriate that a tenant should also be required to provide a statutory declaration to the effect that they have the necessary funds to complete a purchase, rather than the less stringent declaration that is currently proposed.

The legislation does not deal with shared tenancies where multiple tenants wish to purchase, one of whom may be in receipt of HAP and wish their local authority to purchase it on their behalf. These examples are just some of the potential unintended consequences and challenges to which this legislation could lead.

While the intention behind this proposal is to increase tenants' rights, we argue that the most significant of the potential unintended consequences of this legislation is that it may inadvertently curtail tenants’ options. By reducing the overall pool of rental properties, tenants may face increased competition and fewer choices when seeking new accommodation. We ask the committee to weigh up whether there is a valid need for this Bill versus the risks and possible unintended consequences.

Any property owner constitutionally has the right to dispose of their property as they see fit and in a timeline that is determined by them, to any person or company for whatever price they decide, at an auction, by gifting a property; or by offering it for sale on the open market. The right to purchase appears to be fundamentally unsound, unfair to prospective purchasers, damaging to tenants and will cause further damage to an already dysfunctional market. There are many more issues relating to this Bill which we are happy to discuss with the committee.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

I thank the Chairman and the committee for giving Threshold the opportunity to present our observations on the general scheme of the residential tenancies (right to purchase) Bill.

As members will know, Threshold is a national charity that provides advice and support services to people experiencing difficulties in their private rental tenancies. In addition, we advocates for a better and fairer housing system. There are many positive elements set out in the general scheme, but notably, only two heads out of the 27 relate to the tenant’s right to purchase. The remainder deal with numerous other matters which are complex in nature, have far-reaching ramifications for tenants and landlords alike, and must be given due and careful consideration.

Given the significance of these proposed changes, we advise that the Bill cannot be hastily progressed through the legislative process. If there is a desire for the Bill to be enacted promptly, the matters not associated with the tenant’s right to purchase must be removed in order that they are afforded full legislative scrutiny in separate legislation.

Today, I will offer Threshold's observations on the tenant’s right to purchase, followed by our observations on changes to the grounds of termination in the case of a transfer and the expansion of the slip rule. Much more is contained in the scheme. However, time does not permit us to expand on those during our opening statement, but our detailed response and observations are set out in our full written submission which we forwarded yesterday.

Threshold is largely supportive of the proposed amendments that will allow tenants the opportunity to buy their home based on the first right of refusal principle. Head 6, which requires that landlords issue a copy of the invitation to bid to the Residential Tenancies Board for the notice to be valid, is a necessary step to ensure the effectiveness of the right to purchase process. There is no valid reason for the exclusion of non-Part 4 tenants from holding the right to purchase, nor for the exclusion of tenants whose tenancy termination is subject to the Tyrrelstown amendment. Tenants in such scenarios are in no less need of a long-term home than others.

In respect of some of the other measures, we are seriously concerned about the proposed provision regarding the transfer of property for no or partial consideration, as set out under head 5. Our concern is that this provision appears to create a new ground for a landlord to terminate a tenancy. The proposed amendment would potentially allow for a landlord to terminate a tenancy if they are transferring the property to another with unclear indication of the accompanying payment. Such scenarios could take the form of inter-familial transfers or the inter-transfer of properties by large or corporate landlords. Threshold is strongly opposed to such a change. There is no valid reason for the property to be vacated for this type of transfer to occur. There are already sufficient grounds within the existing legislation for landlords to terminate a tenancy when there has been no wrongdoing by a tenant.

There are a number of changes to the procedural standards by the RTB. These changes relate to the procedures to be followed by adjudicators and tribunal members, principally in terms of slips and omissions in notices, and determination orders. Strict compliance with the formalities of ending a tenancy is the least a tenant can expect when being evicted from their home. We find the proposal to apply the slip rule to statutory declarations particularly worrying. Statutory declarations are an established mechanism for ensuring veracity across the legal landscape. Threshold does not feel that amendments which allow for a lax approach to be taken around compliance are permissible in any context, not least in that of landlord and tenant law in the private residential sector.

I thank the members for their time today and we welcome their questions.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

I thank the Chairman and members for the invitation to contribute to the pre-legislative scrutiny of the residential tenancies (right to purchase) Bill. I am the chief executive of the Institute of Professional Auctioneers & Valuers, and I am joined by Mr. John Kennedy who is the IPAV president.

IPAV has more than 1,500 members nationally. We operate a comprehensive system of professional education and development for members and for those wishing to enter the profession. Our profession is often misperceived as having a vested interest in ever-increasing property prices. While IPAV members are legally obliged to seek the best prices for those on whose behalf they act, we strongly believe in, and strive for, policy interventions that would bring about a sustainable property market where people are enabled to buy, sell or rent according to their needs.

On the tenants' side, existing tenants are generally the first to know that the property they are renting is coming for sale. They have the benefit of having lived in the property and, therefore, tend to know the quality of the property, whether the property would amount to a desirable property and location in which they would want to live over the medium or long term, whether they could qualify for a mortgage, the amount of repayments, etc. The key question that arises is if the tenant could satisfy the necessary criteria. The bottom line is that tenants are making decisions every day of the week to buy properties. Some decide to buy the home they are now renting and others decide to buy other homes because maybe their plans are more fluid.

On the landlord side, we believe that up to 90% of the residential tenancy accommodation in this country is provided by private landlords. Although the framework of this Bill is likely to have minimal impact on the right of a landlord to sell his or her rented dwelling, nevertheless the Bill will set a precedent for legislative intervention in a landlord's right to sell a rented dwelling. This is the first time legislation would impact on a landlord's right to sell a dwelling in this way. I would be concerned that a future Government could extend the impact of this legislation further and restrict the rights of landlords to sell their property in a manner which would have a more considerable impact on landlords' constitutional property rights.

There have been calls for landlords' rights to sell rented property to be abolished altogether or severely restricted. This legislation could be seen as the thin end of the wedge in terms of restricting landlords' rights in the future. Motivation for the private individual is different from that of the State, which has a social responsibility to its citizens. The private landlord involves himself or herself in the market for various reasons, but most typically they are, generally speaking, people who do not have a guaranteed income in later life or who are parents planning ahead for their children’s future and the property will become a home for that child or children during the college years.

Last year IPAV and the Irish Property Owners’ Association, IPOA, whom we have just heard from, undertook research involving more than 880 such landlords. They found the major cohort by far, 43%, became a landlord for pension purposes, and the next biggest cohort, about a quarter, did so to gain an income. There are two further very important findings from the report. Over 70% were self-employed and almost six in every ten had a debt to service. Many require a quick sale because they may be under pressure from a lender.

I assure the committee that our members are seeing the legacy of the last financial crash live on. Increased interest rates, sadly, set fire to the dying embers of unsustainable debt for many. Indeed, many landlords are happy to sell to existing tenants. Some owners might want to sell to a relative, typically, a daughter or a son. The Bill that we are discussing today, if implemented, would place the relevant family member in competition with an existing tenant.

Head 5 makes provision when property is being transferred for no or partial consideration but we believe it is not comprehensive enough. The tenant’s right to bid for the property should not arise where a landlord intends to transfer the property to a spouse or certain defined family members, as well as inheritance rights. IPAV believes the Government should give a public commitment that transfers of property to spouses and family members as well as inheritance rights are not to be affected by this or any future legislation.
I know we will have a more detailed discussion shortly but in summary IPAV respectfully suggests the following. Part 4 of the Bill states that a tenant must be in a position to provide to the landlord, vendor or his or her solicitors, in a manner that the Minister may prescribe through regulation under section 8 of the principal Act, their financial capacity to pay to the landlord the amount specified in any bid made by the tenant pursuant to the invitation to bid under the subsection. This section continues on and I will not read it out here. Where does the licensed property service provider in selling this property on behalf of the landlord fit in? Where are they when someone wants to get the documentation that a tenant can buy the property as they are probably the person who is selling the property? Where does this all fit in for somebody who wants to auction their property? How does that work? We ask the committee to investigate this.
We believe that this Bill is unnecessary since what it seeks to provide is already happening in the market in any event - tenants are buying where it suits them and where they can finance it. This Bill would prolong the sales process. With 90 days to bid on a property and a further 90 days to match a bid it will be six months before we get to the legal process to transfer that property. It will frustrate many potential and genuine buyers where a tenant could not match those offers but for whatever reason decides to exercise all available options. The legislation could raise tenant expectations in an unrealistic manner. A tenant’s right to purchase should be removed if they are in breach of any of their statutory obligations. It could be used by some tenants to stay in properties longer than existing legislation prescribes. The tenant’s right to bid to purchase does not apply to the sale of multiple-unit developments, further exacerbating the unequal treatment of private and institutional landlords.
IPAV would respectfully encourage the Legislature to prioritise measures that will increase supply as that is the secret to what we are discussing today. If supply is improved, virtually all the other difficulties in the market will be eased and fall away. The market will work.
While I am very thankful to get the opportunity to attend today, IPAV has had two to three working days to put a statement together for this meeting which is not long enough. This is very serious legislation and we need time to look at it with our legal representatives. The date on the scheme of the Bill was 20 October. We got the invitation on the 28th. We had a conference that day and had our president's lunch the following day which was a Friday which took it completely out. Saturday and Sunday came next which left us with Monday to work on this. That is why my statement is slightly changed from the one that was submitted. I apologise to the committee members for that. We would ask that we would be allowed seven working days together with the IPOA to bring our legal representatives together and come up with a response to this Bill. That is what we would really like to do. We have only touched the tip of the iceberg here. I have more details on the individual heads of the Bill that we need to go through but I do not have time to do it here. I ask that we be given time to do that. I thank members for listening to me.

Mr. Davitt is right that the notice given was too short to allow somebody to respond comprehensively. However, we have a period of time in which to consider the general scheme of the Bill. I appreciate Mr. Davitt and the other witnesses being here to assist the committee to get this right. We can certainly give him seven days to submit a more comprehensive written submission. We have a meeting on Thursday with officials from the Department and others at which we will have an opportunity to put to departmental officials some of the questions and concerns the witnesses have raised today. The committee will then complete its PLS report before Christmas and submit it to the Department. We do not have a timeline on when the legislation will be written, but I have outlined our time on it. We can certainly offer IPAV seven days.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

I might talk to my friends in the IPOA to see if we can put it all together.

I will now go to the members. They will have seven-minute sections in which they can put questions and receive answers. The first slot is for Fianna Fáil and I call Senator Fitzpatrick.

I thank all the witnesses for being here. We take Mr. Davitt's point regarding the short timeline and we apologise for that. We should also apologise now because this meeting is likely to be interrupted for the vote that will take place in the Dáil. It is no disrespect to any of the witnesses and we really appreciate their presence today and their contributions to our work to scrutinise this Bill. We would absolutely welcome a further submission from them all. I know that Threshold has given us an opening statement and a detailed submission, but the timeline for everybody is short.

My first question is for Ms O'Reilly. The tenant in situ scheme was piloted in Dublin city and then extended nationally. When contacted by a tenant who has received notice to quit and is becoming homeless, as standard practice does Threshold ask if the landlord is selling and if the landlord would be willing to sell to the tenant? Is that part of the script for Threshold first responders, for want of a better term?

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

I might ask Mr. Murtagh to respond.

Mr. Zak Murtagh

We run a weekly legal clinic where I directly tap in with our advisers. It depends on the situation, but more often than not advisers would inquire whether there is an interest on behalf of the landlord to sell. We have run some internal training on cost-rental, tenant in situ schemes. My understanding is that our advisers explore that in the first instance when they receive calls.

How many tenants did Threshold help to prevent from becoming homeless last year?

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

It was 10,000 adults and children approximately.

That is phenomenal. What techniques has Threshold used to prevent homelessness?

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

Primarily, we try to keep the person in the home to begin with. Whether they are being evicted or are rent arrears, which tends to be a smaller issue, the first thing is to establish if they could possibly stay in their home. Unfortunately, that has changed and it is actually more difficult to keep people in their home than it was five years ago. We usually try to ensure the person has adequate time and information to find another home, usually another private rental property. Depending on individual circumstances, now we obviously have the tenant in situ as an option. It could be that it is an older person who may have been on the housing list for quite a while and we may get in touch with the local authority to see if there is an option there. Unfortunately, it is a case of making sure that people have the time to find somewhere else and in most cases people have been able to do that.

Is the tenant in situ the main instrument used to keep tenants in the rental property?

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

It is one of the instruments that is used.

Extending the tenant in situ facility for social housing tenants is the objective of this legislation so the people who are not on a social housing list and are earning above the social housing income thresholds can avail of the rental property, providing it is being sold. That is a decision the landlord takes independently. At that stage essentially it becomes their permanent home. I listened to the property representatives and my heart goes out to the small landlords, whose pension it is and they want to realise their pension. Does Mr. Deverell feel that the people he represents will launch a legal challenge if this legislation goes ahead?

Mr. Maurice Deverell

The Bill needs to be drafted fully and go through many more stages before we would think of it from a legal point of view. However, we need to think about the effects of this legislation. Is it worthwhile putting through? How much will it help? Tenants already have the option to just buy it on the open market like everybody else. The local authorities can buy it on the open market like everybody else.

One of our biggest worries concerns councils and timelines. One of our members recently settled with Dublin City Council to sell a property. It was all done and it was a vacant older property. They were settling, no other paperwork was needed and the lease was fine. This was back in October 2022. They got the money out of Dublin City Council in August 2023, ten months later. This has no timeline for the council to do stuff within a reasonable timeframe, as there would be if it were a private buyer. There is the cash buyer end of it.

Another area that has not been touched on but perhaps should be is under Part V of the planning legislation, which dictates that up to 20% of properties go to social housing. There is nothing in this legislation to limit the number of properties going to council housing. That is dangerous because of the management company in the blocks. It already happened in the UK with cladding. If a council owns more than 50% of the flats in a particular block, the other private members get whacked down, so to speak, at the AGM or at the meeting where it is decided what they will do on the block. There is nothing in this legislation to limit, although it is forced upon the landlord, and it will change the demographics of the block.

Local authorities, to be fair, would have an obligation as a landlord. Their best interest is served as a responsible landlord to ensure sustainable and good management, whether it is an estate or a block. On the timeline issue, from my experience with the tenant in situ scheme with Dublin City Council, it has worked well on both sides. It has worked well for the tenant because they do not become homeless or have the uncertainty and disruption that causes, and for the landlord, they do not lose rental income, do not incur costs in having to market the property and they have the guaranteed sale. It works well, in my experience. Timelines are subjective. It depends on the property. I am out of time. I will come back later on this matter.

I thank everybody for their submissions, especially in such a short timescale. As always, we are keen to see a more detailed submission. Will Ms O'Reilly provide more detail on her concerns about the non-purchase heads, on the slip mechanism and vacancy on transfer? The committee would like to hear more about those.

Mr. Deverell made an important point on vacant possession. When I read the Bill, it seems to ignore that, from my experience, a large number of landlords who are choosing to sell wait until the property is vacant before putting it on the market because there is a belief they may get a higher price. There seems to be an assumption, with the first and second offer, that that is the point of sale. I invite Mr. Davitt and Mr. Deverell to give a view on how likely a landlord is to sell vacant rather than with a tenant in situ. How will that element of the Bill work?

Nobody mentioned, and I invite anybody to discuss, the further elements related to non-rental matters. As far as I understand, it is the Supreme Court judgment on the case taken about the WRC. Perhaps that is more for Threshold. Does anybody have views on those? I suggest that if Mr. Davitt does not at this stage, he could come back to it in his written submission. It is quite a significant element of the Bill.

I support anything that increases the opportunities of the tenant to purchase a property at the point of receiving an eviction notice. It is a sensible objective. I have concerns about the Bill. It is badly titled. It is not a right to buy; it is a requirement to offer. The legal mechanism is that a landlord is required to offer not once but twice rather than somebody having a right to buy. It looks like a scheme that states its objective is A but will not necessarily lead to a lot of actual additional sales. I genuinely have a worry. It is not unlike all of the faffing around with the changes to the fair deal scheme. When we saw that in operation, very few properties came into the rental market. I would be interested in everybody's views on the impact of the Bill in its current, unamended form on the number of tenants who may avoid homelessness and purchase the property who might otherwise not have been able to.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

I will ask Mr. Murtagh to comment. I should have introduced him; he is our legal officer. I will let him speak about the slip rule and vacancy in transfer, as well as the Supreme Court judgment.

Mr. Zak Murtagh

I thank the Deputy for the insightful questions on those issues. We see this as an expansion of the ambit of the slip rule. I mentioned the legal clinics I run. In my frequent interactions with advisers in Threshold, which commonly represents for the Residential Tenancies Board, there seem to be difficulties with the slip rule as it is.

For everybody's clarity and the public record, will Mr. Murtagh explain the slip rule and how it operates?

Mr. Zak Murtagh

The questions are getting more difficult. From our perspective, the slip rule is a catch-all that operates at the RTB's level. A casual omission or harmless error, for example, concerning notices to quit, can effectively be cured on the understanding by an adjudicator or at tribunal level in the RTB that there was no malice behind the mistake in the notice to quit and it was simply an omission when trying to comply with the formalities. The formalities around notices to quit and statutory declarations are not particularly onerous. We do not see why, at this stage, there need to be added complications around the slip rule. We also have a particular problem in respect of its expansion regarding statutory declarations. Across the legal landscape, statutory declarations are there for a reason and strict adherence to the rules with them is also there for a reason. Our understanding of this proposed new legislation is that prima facie careless omissions could be more than that in certain instances. We do not want the slip to be used to cure those.

I thank Ms O'Reilly for the prompt. The issue of transfer was addressed in a number of the opening statements. We have particular concern about this. There are 27 proposed heads in this legislation, of which 25 seem to be more procedural in nature and only two pertain directly to the right to purchase. It is almost as though this legislation should be called something else. We find it worrying on the point about transfer in particular. We do not want a much-needed development allowing tenants a first right to purchase their homes to be undermined or thwarted, if you like, by inter-familial transfers and inter-transfers within larger institutional groups of landlords. It is a point of particular concern to us. The legislation states it is trying to create a bona fide right of first purchase for tenants, yet we ask if it takes away from that by easing the situations in which properties can be transferred within families of landlords or large groups of landlords.

I will come back to my other questions in the second round because we have run out of time.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

I would like to comment on the slip rule, if I may.

Briefly, because we have to keep to seven-minute time slots.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

It cannot be that brief because it is a whole document part itself.

I will move on.

I thank all the witnesses for being here, especially at such short notice. What many of them have said is that this is already happening. That is good and positive and progressive. I have personal experience of someone who was a tenant being offered first refusal when the property went up for sale. There are many constituents in that same boat. I would like to see that extended much wider because I believe there is huge positivity in that. I am just a little concerned about unintended consequences and any potential this has to slow anything down. Sales and purchases are painfully slow in Ireland already and that can often lead to people's lives being put on hold and accommodation situations getting tricky. It is those unintended consequences I want to explore. Threshold brought up a potential unintended consequence around new grounds for termination, which I would be interested to learn more about. IPAV spoke about the situation where a landlord might like to leave or sell a property to a spouse or family member. We have already heard the dynamic and the difference of opinion on that. IPOA made a special point about this potentially having the wrong consequence and shortening or dampening the rental market. I would just like to explore those to make sure that when this is introduced, it is done right.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

On the transfer, the law currently states that a landlord can evict if they are entering into an enforceable transfer for full consideration. Essentially, they can evict if they plan to sell the property. Under head 5, it is proposed to change that to them being able to can evict if they plan to transfer the property for no or partial consideration. That is where it becomes unclear. That could just be transferring the property to a family member or maybe a large company doing transfers within itself. That causes us concern. That would mean a landlord could evict somebody when engaging in that type of transfer. There are already plenty of reasons they can evict somebody so that does cause us concern.

Mr. Brendan Allen

I am just concerned about the full thrust of this. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, stated clearly at the Threshold AGM that this process of the tenant buying is already there. It is already happening. I am confused as to why we have to go through this process and introduce a whole pile of complexity that is not necessary. It is actually working at the moment.

To comment on the transfers to family, I find it difficult to understand why someone should not be allowed to transfer their property to their son or daughter, or if they are in a marriage situation where there is a break-up, why they cannot transfer to their wife if there is a sitting tenant.

There would be a court order in that situation, presumably.

Mr. Brendan Allen

There are huge issues being generated here that we need to be aware of and unintended consequences. It is too short a timetable to deal with the complexities of this and certainly for us non-legal people, this is a huge hurdle to get through.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

The Deputy asked if we are concerned about family members not being able to buy the property. That is mentioned in two heads. It is brought up in one head but in another head it is not actually clear that this does relate to them. If that is going to be the case, it should come out very clear in the Bill or else the Government should say it is not limiting the Bill to this. That is very important part of it. The Deputy is dead right to come up with that. From our point of view, if the landlord wants to sell the property or pass on the property to their spouse or children, it needs to be there unambiguously that they can do that. That is a very important part of it.

Some of the opening statements talked about how this may have the opposite effect in terms of constraining the rental market or housing market. Could I get a bit of information on where that is coming from?

Mr. Maurice Deverell

It is coming from the fact that a landlord looks at an investment and looks forward, like any other investor looking at any other thing, be that shares or whatever. Whatever is an attractive investment that is going to give a return, which one can buy in and buy out of, is where people put their money. The whole thing is becoming a lot more complicated, as is the process of selling. Even going through the Residential Tenancies Act, at this stage it is 250 pages long and is incredibly complicated. Section 148 is unbelievably unwieldy, even in the way all the lettering has been done. The whole thing is so complicated, it does not encourage any new landlords to come into the market. This is as obvious as anything. I know there are varying numbers on how many are coming and going. There is the RTB count and the CSO count. At the end of the day, I know it from personal experience. The last place I let out, I had 180 applications and 80 phone calls and I met 30 people. I would not have had that five years ago. Clearly, there is a problem with the number of landlords in the market and we need to change that. We need to encourage more landlords into the market or else build a lot of social housing that is going to take that up. We cannot build the social housing quite at the speed we hoped to and with the population rising the way it is, this is the reason we are running into these problems. We need more landlords in the market, basically. This will not encourage one new landlord into the market. That is the point we were trying to make. We feel it will also dissuade some.

Does anybody else want to comment on that?

Mr. Patrick Davitt

Head 7 of the Bill is the one I was looking at. It says it will not affect a transfer in the interest in the property for no or partial consideration to spouses or family members. The Bill will not impact on inheritance of the property either. The tenant's right to bid to purchase the dwelling should not arise where a landlord intends to transfer his interest in the property to a spouse or certain defined family members. The tenant will otherwise enjoy a right to bid for a rental property which is not intended or going to be put on the market. In fact, if someone was passing the property to a next of kin, spouse or family member, the property would not be going on the market so why should the tenant have a right to bid on it? While the Bill proposes to make this clear, it should be made clear to the public while the legislation is in process and being passed by the Oireachtas because this is causing a lot of concern to different people who own properties at the moment. There should be clear communication from the Government. That is what I am saying on it. That is head 7.

I am going to take the next slot. I have a simple question for the three groups. Do they think this legislation will lead to a lot of tenants purchasing their properties?

Mr. Patrick Davitt

I think it is unfortunate that we are talking about two sides of this Bill. Ms O'Reilly addressed that a few moments ago. There are only the couple of sides we are talking about, namely, the landlords and the tenants, but there is a whole dose of different things from the RTB and different recommendations. I do not believe personally that this will affect the many people buying properties at the moment. It is going to give rights where rights are not needed because this is happening already.

This is probably a question for the IPAV or the IPOA. Do they find generally that if a landlord has decided to get out of the job, for whatever reason he or she may have, they prefer to sell the house when it is vacant rather than with the tenant in place?

Mr. Maurice Deverell

All our members would absolutely prefer that. When trying to move on a property, you need it vacant. It is not even just when selling it. If moving from one renter to another, generally it is nice to have a gap in between where you can give the house a coat of paint so it looks a lot better and becomes a lot more appealing. From that point of view, you want vacant possession. If buying a property, you want to be sure that when you sign the contract, that place is vacant. You do not want to buy a place as a buyer and find out it is still being lived in by somebody.

I understand the whole chain that goes on when people move.

Mr. John Kennedy

If you are organising viewings and you are trying to co-ordinate somebody coming into the home, they do not want to see everybody else's stuff. You do not want to have to clear the stuff up in order to do viewing. It would be preferable that the place is vacant when trying to bring people through. Then you can make on-the-spot appointments to bring someone in immediately to see the property.

In the witnesses' experience of that process, they have to serve what is sometimes quite a lengthy notice to quit-----

Mr. John Kennedy

You want to give them time to-----

-----and then that might not end quite at that timeline. Then they have to decorate the house and get the estate agent and maybe there are three or four months of sales and bids and dropouts. There is a period of time there where there is no rent coming in and there are expenses, estate agent fees, etc. Would certain landlords view this as being quite a straightforward transaction in that they have somebody there and there is no moving out or moving in, no decoration, no marketing and no estate agent?

Would the witnesses imagine some landlords-----

Mr. John Kennedy

They could have made that deal anyway without having to go to the estate agent.

Mr. Brendan Allen

Yes. They do not need the legislation to do that.

Of course they could. There is nothing to prevent-----

Mr. John Kennedy

And people do.

Yes. We had various groups in that deal with homelessness, and I think Threshold was present then as well. I remember the tenant in situ proposals we had whereby the local authority can purchase if it is a HAP or RAS tenancy or there is cost rental opportunity with the Housing Agency for someone who is slightly over that threshhold. Then there is this one, where somebody privately renting has first offer. There are important tenants' rights we try to build in. I am conscious we must balance the constitutional rights to private property that exist with the common good. All of that is in the middle of a very difficult housing situation with rental properties, affordability and sale of the house. That is what we are trying to do here, but I take on board that IPAV and the IPOA have concerns about it. However, do they not think it would assist a tenant where they get this first offer and this time to apply for a mortgage? In many cases people are paying a rent that might end up being less than the mortgage on that property as well. Do the witnesses not think it benefits tenants, in a way?

Mr. John Kennedy

Sometimes they have six months' notice.

Mr. Pat Davitt

Or nine months.

Mr. John Kennedy

Yes, or longer. They give kind of a good lead-in where they could have prepared, so it does not add any value from their perspective if they have a longer period of notice where they can make an offer. They could have made that offer anyway.

How then is it detrimental to a landlord on the other side of it?

Mr. John Kennedy

Will the Cathaoirleach say that again?

Mr. Kennedy says the situation does not add any benefit to a tenant, what is the other side of it? How is it detrimental to a landlord?

Mr. John Kennedy

Obviously they are looking to sell their property and they are thinking about what the market would give them for their property.

The tenant is going to make them an offer based on valuations.

Mr. John Kennedy

If the offer is good enough, and they are in a position to make it, then, as Mr. Davitt said earlier, there would be a deal done and the estate agent would not be wanted in that case.

It is not that we want that, but there is nothing there stopping-----

If that is the way it is, then what is the concern with this?

Mr. Patrick Davitt

At the moment, if a tenant gets a notice the landlord wants to sell the property, they have the notice immediately and they know first that they are going to sell the property. At that stage, what we find at the moment from an agent's perspective is, tenants are looking at the possibility of buying a property long before the property comes on the market, so they would have a very good idea of whether they can get an adequate mortgage or not. Price is not that big a problem, because the property price register is there. People can look at that register and see the value of a property in their area. Granted, the landlord may be looking for more or less, depending on what way the situation is, but there is absolutely no reason the landlord and the tenant cannot come immediately to an agreement about the sale of the property, which actually happens in many cases. What is being given here is a right for the tenant to make the first offer - it can be called "first" or whatever but it is not first under the Bill because what it does is give the tenant an offer to bid on the property and 90 days to do that and then it gives them an offer to match the bid. Thus, tenants are not being given the offer to buy the property, but an offer to match a bid on a property. That is what the Government is doing. That offer, at the end of the second 90 days, could be 10% to 30% above the valuation of that property. Would many tenants be able to match that from their incomes? That is the problem.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

The solicitors only to have to get their documentation together, but most people like to get an agent to sell the property because they know an agent is going to get the best price for them for the property.

One might not necessarily need an agent in this situation.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

It is not a matter of needing an agent or not. If one wanted to get the best price for one's property one would use an agent, in my opinion.

Let us say this is a one-to-one arrangement between the tenant and the landlord. A marketing agent may not be needed.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

An agent might not be needed if the landlord is happy. Nobody can force an agent on them, but if a landlord gets an agent to sell their property they do so for one reason, which is to get the best price available. That is what the agent has to do by law; we have to get the best price for the property.

I must move on, but I have a very brief question for Threshold. Does it come across many situations where a landlord served a notice to quit because they are selling and then maybe six or eight months later that property has not been sold and is now rented again? What kind of follow-up is done on that, if any, and how does the law sit on that?

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

It comes up occasionally. In those situations the tenant can take a case to the RTB for unlawful eviction in that instance. The tenant will probably just be awarded compensation, because the home is already tenanted, so the landlord cannot be directed to put the original tenant back in.

How many cases of compensation being awarded would Ms O'Reilly say there have been in the last while?

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

I would have to go and look. We are talking-----

She is aware of compensation being paid in those situations.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

Yes, in very small numbers. Usually tenants have moved on and they are not tracking what happened to their old place.

Mr. Zak Murtagh

If I can add something, it is something of a Pyrrhic victory to be awarded compensation after you have been put out of your home and there is no other home, necessarily, for you to go back to. A lot of the focus from some of the other people before the committee today has been on achieving the best possible price out there in the market around properties. We are in a historic housing crisis and selling properties with a tenant in situ does not necessarily mean people are getting an appalling or awful price and we have to keep that in consideration.

I thank Mr. Murtagh. Deputy O'Callaghan is next.

I want to explore the issue of vacant possession a bit. From IPAV's experience, would landlords generally be advised that if they are renting to a tenant in order to achieve the best possible price they need to get vacant possession to sell? Is that generally what happens?

Mr. Patrick Davitt

It depends on the rent the landlord is getting. If the landlord is getting market rent, then in that particular case you will get a market price. If you are not getting market rent you will not get a market price. Going back to what Mr. Murtagh said a minute ago about getting the best price, we are bound by law to get the best price. It is not something we can decide to do ourselves. We have to do it. If a landlord and tenant are dealing among themselves, it is up to them how much money they accept and there is nothing we can do about it. In the Deputy's scenario, that would be the situation.

In most cases when landlords are selling are they generally advised vacant possession is how they will get the best price or is there a practice of properties being sold with the tenant in place?

Mr. Patrick Davitt

No, you would go to look at a property and see. If the rent is not market rent then you are probably looking at another investor. If it is market rent, then you are probably looking at the open market value of the property, so it depends on how the rent is prescribed as you look at the property. Taking all this into consideration, if the rent is the proper rent for that particular apartment and it is not under-rented, then in that case whether the property is vacant or not you are going to get market price for it. If the rent is lower you would have to look at it and advise the landlord that the property is earning so much and on the basis of that yield they are only going to get X amount, whereas if they have vacant possession they will get X amount.

Is Mr. Davitt telling us that before rent regulation was introduced in Ireland most rental properties were sold with the tenants in place?

Mr. Patrick Davitt

Before rent regulation in Ireland, even if a property was under-----

Was that the standard practice?

Mr. Patrick Davitt

Yes. Even before regulation in Ireland, even if a property was under-rented, you had the option to put it up to market rent if you wanted to, so a landlord or another investor would have no fear of buying that property. Now they would have a fear buying that property because they are caught by the past rent on the property, unless they take it out of the market for two years, so you are caught in a situation. If there is no rent restriction then you could put the property up to market rent yourself.

Yes, so is Mr. Davitt telling the committee it is his view that before there was rent regulation in Ireland most rental properties were sold with the renters in situ and vacant possession was not achieved?

Mr. Patrick Davitt

It could have happened and it probably did happen. It happened on the basis that on the basis that if I was an investor and bought the property, I would know I could change that rent roundabout and bring it up to market rent if I so wished, so I would get as much as the property was worth. In the current situation you obviously cannot do that. If you are renting a property for €1,000 and the same property beside is being rented for €2,000, you cannot put the rent up from €1,000 to €2,000, you can only put it up by 2%.

Mr. Davitt answered that it could have happened, but from his experience of before rent regulation is this what usually happened?

Mr. Patrick Davitt

I would say it did happen.

Yes, and it does happen, but was it on a large scale that vacant possession was not achieved?

Mr. Patrick Davitt

The Deputy would be right that vacant possession was not achieved because you could put up the rent wherever you wanted to - if you were able to get it, that is.

Does Threshold have a view on that? Before there was rent regulation in Ireland, was it normal for renters to stay in place when the properties were being sold?

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

No.

We just heard from IPAV that it was.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

It has always been one of the top five issues that come into Threshold. Usually the number one issue is someone got a notice that they have to leave. Granted, more properties are for sale now. To be exact about it, I would have to go back and look at our historic stats on it. From personal experience, I do not know anyone whose property was sold while renters were in it, but I would have to double-check the figures.

From my experience as a public representative and my personal life, I can only think of one situation where the renter remained in place out of-----

Mr. Maurice Deverell

I have bought properties with tenants in situ at auction. The tenants are there and you take them on. In all cases, it has been in the UK. The reason is that if you buy it with a tenant in situ and the tenant is not working out, there is something wrong or otherwise, in the UK you have the option through section 20 to start a notice of proceedings, probably similar to Ireland but I have not done it in Ireland. In the UK, you can do it because if there is an issue, you could-----

It is the norm in most European countries, which do not actually have the same regulation systems. The UK would have better rights for renters and so on.

I am asking this because vacant possession is disruptive. We have been told here it is inefficient. It would be a much better rental sector if more renters were able to stay in the property. It would ultimately save hassle for renters and landlords. It would also save costs, costs during vacancy and all that. How could this impact or not on vacant possession? I would like to hear views on that.

Mr. Brendan Allen

I wish to interject. If a property is going for sale by a landlord, the reason primarily, in my experience, is that they are in financial difficulty and want to move out of that situation and achieve the best possible price. The problem is if you do not achieve market price, you might not even clear your mortgage with it, which has been the case. We have had ten interest rate increases in the past year and a half. Landlords are in difficulty with that. In my opinion, it is never the intention to force homelessness on somebody by landlords, rather, they want to sell their property. If the tenant can buy it, be it individually or through a local council, so be it, because the intention is to sell.

I might conclude on a comment. In my experience, many of the landlords in the constituency would absolutely prefer to sell to their existing tenant. Sometimes they feel they cannot because they feel they may not be able to get the best price. They might be advised they need to get vacant possession to get the best possible price, which might end the relationship with the tenant. The question is how legislation like this affects something like that. Does it create more stability or does it simply create more headaches for people without the benefits? Those are the questions we need to explore.

Mr. Brendan Allen

I wish to respond. The landlord wants to sell. If the facilities are put in place by the Government where it gives the local authority the ability to buy, landlords are delighted to sell to them if it is at market price. We do not necessarily want to evict tenants; we want to get out of a financial difficulty we may be in. There is no intention to make people homeless; rather, it is a consequence of the individual landlord’s set of circumstances more than anything else.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

That is very important from the point of view of agents as well. If a tenant is able to offer the market value of a property to a landlord, however it is, even if they are paying less rent for the property themselves, that deal would still be done. That is if they are able to offer market rent or market value for the property. For instance, if you are renting a property for €1,000 and you were able to pay the market value of the property if it was fully rented to the landlord, why should they not do the deal? I believe it is happening all the time. I do not see why they would not be able to do that. It is only when you offer below the market rent of a property on the basis of a yield that the landlord would decide not to sell the property. That is the only reason. The landlords would then look for vacant possession of the property to get the full value of it.

To follow up on Deputy O’Callaghan’s point, there is a bad idea and there is bad legislation. I think this is potentially a good idea but what we are hearing from both sides and across the board is that the legislation is not necessarily going to fulfil what is there as intended. The landlords and investors seem to be saying that this is happening already, so I cannot see the issue with them being willing and wanting to sell to existing tenants. The idea behind this is that it avoids homeless and extends the tenant in situ scheme to private tenants and long-term private tenants. The issue in the middle that we need to tackle is vacant possession. There is a strong argument being made by the IPOA that tenants' rights need to be subordinate essentially to getting the biggest deal landlords can get as investors. The question for us as legislators is on which side of that do we fall. With that said, there are probably significant problems with and unintended consequences of this legislation.

To the folks from Threshold, in their experience, how many tenants do they think something like this would be helpful for or to, or is it such an insignificant number that it is almost not worthwhile to do this?

Mr. Davitt wanted to talk about the slip rule. I have a little bit of time so I will cede some of the time for him to follow up on that question, which I think came from Deputy Higgins.

Regarding partial transfer, if what the witnesses are proposing is to take out the selling of it to family members, how many family members would they limit that to? I think Threshold already explained the issue about partial transfer in that it essentially gives another ground and an element, so that is something for us to look at.

I will hand over my time now.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

Our clients come from across society but given where house prices are, a minority would be a position to get the funds necessary to purchase a home. I cannot say an exact number but it would be small enough. That is not to say that it is not worthwhile. It would be a great addition to the tenant in situ scheme, which has been working incredibly well.

As regards the partial transfer, I should have clarified that we have no issue if somebody is transferring property to a family member who will live there. However, if they are evicting somebody because they are transferring for partial or no consideration and that property is then rented out to someone else, that is where we have a difficulty. If it is a transfer for partial or no consideration and the person receiving the property will take up occupancy, that is fine. However, if the tenants are going to be evicted just for the property to be rented out again, that is where we have a difficulty.

I hope that answers the Senator’s questions.

It absolutely does and that is an element we can look at.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

We welcome the changes to the slip rule, believe it or not. It is a welcome provision that extends the slip rule to warning notices, company statements and statutory declarations as well as to termination or notice of termination. This is a welcome provision from our point of view to avoid a notice being declared invalid on the basis of minor technicalities, which is what we find has been happening. This Part of the Bill should be amended, however, to make clear that one slip or omission contained within the document can be cured by the slip rule where appropriate to do so.

I am aware that some adjudicators at the tribunals at the moment - we hear this quite a bit – have taken the view that the current section 64 refers to a slip or omission in the singular. We believe this means that if there are multiple errors in the notice, the slip rule cannot apply but this is not correct in our interpretation. The Act of 2005 provides that in every legislation the singular includes the plural already and vice versa.

However, this should be clarified in the legislation to ensure decision-makers are being consistent on this point. I thank the Senator for allowing me to add the bit about the slip rule but we do welcome the amendments in it.

Senator Moynihan has another minute or two remaining.

That is very helpful. I do not have any more questions. The committee will probably have to go away to discuss this. It could potentially be a very good and progressive idea, but there is probably work that will need to happen on the legislation itself. Both sides have raised the problems and issues and it is up to us whether we come down on the side of increasing tenant's rights or whether we are concerned about people's investments. I know where I sit on that but it is for the committee to discuss privately how we make this legislation simple and robust. It is probably overly complicated for what it is trying to achieve at the moment.

Mr. Brendan Allen

What is the Senator's view of landlords in the sense of if they have financial difficulties? Does she accept that landlords can have financial difficulties?

We do not tend to question the committee members.

Mr. Brendan Allen

I am sorry.

I am actually not in here to be questioned.

Mr. Brendan Allen

I am just astonished-----

Maybe you could have that discussion in private.

We can have that discussion and Mr. Allen can ask that.

Mr. Brendan Allen

I am astonished the Senator is proposing or suggesting that all landlords have very deep pockets and are here to screw tenants. That is certainly not the case.

I do not think that is what Senator Moynihan actually said.

That is certainly not what I suggested but I am not here to answer questions either.

I apologise for being late. I was in the Seanad Chamber with the Minister, Deputy McGrath, and there were some interactions on the Finance Bill in the context of landlords. I missed some of the meeting so I want to go back over some of the comments in the opening statements of both IPAV and the IPOA, such as that this will prompt some landlords to sell in advance of the legislation, that the Bill would elongate the sales process, that i could be used by some tenants to stay in the properties longer than the existing legislation, and that it will remove auctions. I have read the Bill and have had an interaction with the Department regarding it and I do not see what the witnesses see. I come to this from the perspective of being exceptionally supportive of landlords as opposed to some who try to vilify landlords. The perceived difficulty the witnesses allude to does not take account of the fact that the minimum notice period for a Part 4 tenancy is six months. What we are talking about here is 90 days. Reference was made to somebody coming in at the end of the process. The heads of the Bill outline that this only applies where a bid is less than or equal to the proposed price the tenant has actually put forward. Find me a landlord who will accept a lower bid. I do not see that piece either. Will Mr. Davitt and Mr. Deverell come in on the issue of the 90 days?

Mr. Maurice Deverell

Can I clear this up? The Senator is correct in everything he has said so far. To take an example of a €500,000 property. The tenant offers €400,000 for it, and that is fine, in the first 90 days. The Senator is 100% correct on the fact that the amount of time that goes on will be way over 90 days. The tenant then leaves the property because the 224 days, for example, have run out. The property is now vacant and goes onto the market. There is still the offer of €450,000 from the tenant but ideally the property is worth €500,000. The property goes to auction and makes €450,000. The hammer comes down. It is sold to the man in the green tie for €450,000 but that is not the council. Now it has to go to a ten-day pause------

I will just put it to Mr. Deverell. He is involved in the auction process.

Mr. Maurice Deverell

Not at all.

There can be a reserve price at an auction. Mr. Deverell has a reserve price of €450,000, which is an offer that is on the table. If someone puts down an offer for €450,001, then that is the sale. Would Mr. Deverell accept that?

Mr. Maurice Deverell

I would accept that.

I will ask about the other comments by Mr. Davitt around the 90 days versus the 180 days. Six months is the minimum notice period for a Part 4 tenancy. There is nothing in this, as I see it and from my questioning of the officials on it, that will stop any landlord from going out to the market in that first 90 days to try to achieve the best price for his or her property.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

Is there anything in the Bill to ensure the tenant will allow the property to be viewed? It is fine to talk about the six-month period and in all honesty-----

Okay, but that is the present scenario.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

That is not the present scenario. The tenant does not have an option at the moment to buy the property so it is not the present scenario. The present scenario is that the property is put on the market. If the tenant wants to buy the property and they offer enough money for it, the landlord will sell it to them.

The present scenario for what we are talking about here is that the tenant must be given at least six months' notice.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

They are and they are given 224 days in some cases.

Absolutely, but the minimum notice-----

Mr. Patrick Davitt

The point I am trying to get to is how we can get other viewers to view the property and make an offer on the property while there is a tenant inside the property. There is nothing in the Bill that says the tenant must allow viewers of the property. If the tenant does not allow viewers of the property or if someone goes to the view the property and the tenant does not have it in as nice a state as one would like to have it in, as an agent bringing somebody to look at it, in that situation surely it will devalue the property and that is why this would be done.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

I will talk about the auction before we move on. In the auction process, of course you can put a reserve price of €450,000 on a property. What do we do if there is a reserve price of €450,000 and you have passed this at this stage and are at €460,000? What do your do if the tenant comes along and says they will get €460,000? Will the tenant give me €460,000? I have to close this.

To clarify, that it is not in the Bill. What the Bill actually says is that where the sale price is less than or equal to the price the tenant has offered within 90 days, then it has to be offered at that price. My point on that is that I do not know somebody who would sell a property for less.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

I know many landlords who would sell a property for less if they were getting a cash buyer as opposed to somebody who is waiting on a mortgage. I do not think that is a secret that this is the case.

Okay, in the context of a cash buyer, but my point is that it could not happen within a 180-day period. What we are saying here is the best offer has to be put up within a 90-day period.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

There are two scenarios. One is where the Senator talked about the auctioneer, so I will explain the auction and how it works. I know he is well aware of how the auction works.

I only mentioned the auction piece in passing.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

The auction piece is not taken into consideration in this Bill at all because you do not have 90 days, 90 hours or 90 minutes. You not even have 90 seconds to make up your mind. You are either selling the property or not, so the tenant must be in a situation to buy the property if it is put to auction. If I am standing in front of the Senator and he is bidding me, for instance, €450,000 for the property and my president, Mr. Kennedy, is the tenant and he says he will match the €450,000, then I go back to the Senator who will give €451,000. Will the tenant match that? He says he will. Will he match the €452,000 bid I have? Will he give me more than that? Also, each person at that auction must be in a position to sign a contract and pay a deposit on that particular day.

There is an inference in what Mr. Davitt is suggesting there that this is not the case.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

That is the case. That is what happens.

No, under the legislation, if a tenant within 90 days has offered €450,000 and someone comes along to that auction and offers €451,000, there is no obligation - I questioned the Department officials on this specific point last week - to go back to the person who has offered €450,000 and ask if they can match €451,000.

That is not in the draft Bill.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

I am sorry; I am not asking questions here but I want to get straight what we are talking about. The Senator is saying a tenant might offer €450,000 for the property and they will have 90 days to it. As I understand it, the draft Bill also states there will be a further 90 days to match the bid. If I go through-----

That is not how I understand it. Perhaps that is where clarity is needed. I asked the departmental officials specifically about this and they said "No" was the answer to the scenario Mr. Davitt is outlining. They said that if somebody subsequently bids €470,000, there will be no obligation to go back to the tenant and allow them to make an offer of €470,000.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

I do not know which it is but-----

I asked this question for that reason-----

Mr. Patrick Davitt

That is fair enough. I would be delighted with that.

My point is that if that were the case, would that reassure Mr. Davitt? It is my understanding from my engagement with the officials last week.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

Let me put this into plain English so that I understand it as well. The Senator is saying a tenant would make an offer within 90 days to buy the property.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

He is then saying that after the 90 days, if somebody goes beyond the offer, the landlord will not have to go back to the tenant.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

That is not my understanding of the draft Bill.

Would that be Mr. Deverell's understanding of it?

Mr. Maurice Deverell

The Senator is correct on that.

Does that reassure Mr. Davitt?

Mr. Patrick Davitt

It is reassuring but it will still be in the auction period. If a landlord wants to put a property on the market, they will have to wait for the 90 days to elapse.

To go back to the very first point, is that not the case in any event, given the minimum notice period is 180 days? If the landlord wanted the property to be vacant in order to do it up, paint it and present it in the best possible way, they could not do that until at least 180 days had passed in the first instance.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

That is correct, or more.

It could be 228 days.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

We are happy with that.

We are going to move on now but we will get the Senator clarity on that because it is an important point.

To continue that thread, my reading of the Bill is the same as that of Senator Cummins but I do think subhead 3 is very unclear, so it would be helpful to get clarity from the Department when its representatives appear before the committee later in the week. As I said, I read the provision in the same way Senator Cummins does.

I am not asking whether the following aspect is good or bad; it is just for clarity. The Bill does not seem to make any provision for a landlord who wants to sell vacant. If there is a six-month eviction notice, for example, with a 90-day period and the ability of the tenant to make an offer, during that period the landlord can put the property on the open market. If they get a higher bid, they will sell to that person, but if it is the same as or lower than the tenant's original bid, they will sell to the tenant. I am not seeing anything in the general scheme with regard to making provision for where a landlord wants to sell the property vacant. I am not arguing that should be there but it is an important point of clarity. The entire presumption from subhead 3 is that it is all happening within and up to the 90 days. Does anybody see anything other than that in the Bill?

I do not want to keep going back to the slip rule, but it would be valuable for the witnesses' organisations, as advocates both for tenants and for landlords who understand the finer detail of this, to tell us about the typical kinds of errors or mistakes they see. I share Threshold's concern in that it is one thing to make a genuine error in a notice letter, but an affidavit is a document of legal standing. What kind of mistakes in affidavits are we talking about? That issue is of a different order. If there are specific examples, I would like to hear them.

I am keen to hear about the Zalewski Supreme Court judgment because it is a significant part of the Bill. I think I understand it but I encourage our guests, if they have a view on that section, to share their thoughts on it.

Mr. Maurice Deverell

On the slip rule, I think-----

I am looking for examples. I get the generality of it, but what kinds of mistakes do Threshold or the landlord representative organisations see?

Mr. Maurice Deverell

I would say Threshold or IPAV would see a lot more than us because it is the tenant who brings the case to Threshold, so its representatives are the best people to answer. Ms O'Reilly is the best person for the job.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

That might actually be Mr. Murtagh, given he looks at the cases.

Mr. Zak Murtagh

Yes, I do look at them. Deputy Ó Broin has made the point that statutory declarations are an important creature in what they are and seek to achieve in respect of veracity and law, and he made the comparison to an affidavit and outlined how important it is to follow the letter of the law on them. Our advisers see all kinds of problems relating to the witnessing of statutory declarations, which is a core area we see, and, to use layman's language, a sloppy adherence to statutory declaration rules. Some people do not understand their function in law as a witness, albeit a written one. We are just not seeing an adequate appreciation by landlords, whereby it is something of a box-ticking exercise. In my experience, we sometimes see certain problems with statutory declarations from absentee landlords. We see a raft of things going wrong with them, but the core point is their importance as a legal instrument is not fully appreciated.

What about the Supreme Court judgment?

Mr. Zak Murtagh

The Supreme Court judgment was something I deeply did not want to talk about today, but I will and am happy to do so. It is a complex decision that has ramifications for quasi-judicial bodies across the board. As per Mr. Justice O'Donnell's decision, the core area of this is the administration of justice in public and the absolute importance of that. This draft legislation is proposing special circumstances where hearings could be held in the RTB and determination orders that come out of those hearings could be redacted on a certain level. Our position in Threshold is that it is imperative at the moment, given what is going on in the private rental sector, that as much attention as possible is put on the RTB's decisions and what they mean-----

Is it Mr. Murtagh's view that the import of the Supreme Court judgment, in the context of these heads, will be to restrict or limit some of the transparency in terms of the publication of determinations or the holding of hearings in public?

Mr. Zak Murtagh

It is a complex judgment that is open to interpretation, and I am not trying to fudge the question by saying that. We can look at the judgment in a number of ways but, certainly, having looked at the draft legislation, the heads are clearly calling for circumstances where more private hearings would take place, and that is of concern to us. We would say there is possibly a different interpretation of the Supreme Court's decision-----

Does the same apply for the publication of determinations, whereby there could be greater levels of redaction, for example?

Mr. Zak Murtagh

Yes, it does. To get back to the point I previously made, we want the information on determination orders out there because they are of serious social consequence in the broader scheme of things.

That is clear.

Turning to Mr. Deverell or Mr. Davitt, I do not see anything in the draft legislation that makes provision for landlords who want to sell vacant. Is that their interpretation or do they read it differently?

Mr. Maurice Deverell

We only got the proposed legislation on Thursday, but my understanding is that the tenant will have the 90-day notice, offers will go in and so on, but when it comes to 158 days, 224 days, they should get vacant possession. One of the problems we have with a lot of our members relates to overholding. Overholding is illegal but there is nothing in the legislation, even though it could easily be adapted into it, to enforce its illegality. Even if we do not want to go as far as enforcing that illegality, why not bring in something like the German system whereby, when you overhold, you would have to pay the rent directly into the RTB? We think that is a fair idea. The tenant could pay rent directly to the RTB, let it go to tribunal because everyone knows it is going to take weeks or months but, at least, at the end of the day, in a year's time or whenever the thing is finished, the RTB will have a couple of bob to give to the person to whom it is due. That is where we would like to see overholding addressed.

Can I clarify something? I know the invitation was short notice. This Bill was published on 20 October. Did both organisations only see it-----

Mr. Maurice Deverell

We were invited late on Tuesday night or Wednesday morning-----

To the committee?

Mr. Maurice Deverell

-----to this and we got the document on Thursday.

So you were not aware that the general scheme of the Bill had been published on 20 October?

Mr. Maurice Deverell

Not before Thursday, three days ago.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

It was not available online.

It was not available?

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

We had to ask the clerk to send it.

Mr. Maurice Deverell

We had to ask for it.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

We were aware it had gone to Cabinet and that was it.

We were sent that general scheme previously. That is something that we need to look at. If a general scheme is available, those interested or concerned with that aspect or sector should be able to look at that general scheme. I just wanted to clarify that.

We can all learn from the process. Normally, we would have the Department in before external witnesses. Perhaps if that had happened, we could have clarified some of the issues that have been raised and the witnesses might have had the opportunity to see the Department's proposals in a fleshed out form. That is obviously something for us to consider. I accept that timing and lack of information is less than ideal and is probably not satisfactory. That being said, I think the witnesses have added to the debate on this Bill from different perspectives. They have raised a number of significant things which we can now bring to the discussion with the Department. I thank them for that.

I want to touch on a point raised by the IPOA. I can fully appreciate the additional burdens which the increased rights we have granted to tenants have laid at the door of landlords, because they do not lay at anyone else's door but, ultimately, the door of landlords. In 2020, we were probably an outlier in the European context with the rights that were provided to tenants. The additional rights which have been granted to tenants over the past three years bring us more in line with that European context. We regulate many different industries in many different ways. What we have done over recent years is positive in the long run, although it is no doubt an additional burden on landlords. Senator Moynihan asked if that is an acceptable burden. I would say all the measures we have brought in so far are acceptable.

I do not expect my colleagues on the left to herald the benefits we have brought in, but they have been significant. We have capped rents and deposits to be below the rate of inflation. We have increased notice periods. We have limited opportunities and grounds on which a notice can be given. On a number of occasions, we prevented eviction on public health grounds, but equally last year, when we decided to lift the eviction notice, we put in place a number of steps for tenants, namely, the cost-rental tenant in situ scheme and access to the first home scheme for purchases. First refusal for purchases is the last one of those rights that were indicated at the time. I do not expect my colleagues on the left to herald any of those but they are significant rights which tenants did not have three years ago and which they have now. We also fund Threshold to assist tenants to exercise those rights.

This area is tricky. It is the first time we have gone into the ownership and sale of property. The other legislation regulates businesses, not assets. It is worth having that discussion in a different context. Senator Cummins's contribution is important. I do not believe there is anything in this Bill which prevents people from selling their property. Am I correct in saying that?

Mr. Maurice Deverell

It might affect the price, but the Deputy is right.

The next question is whether it prevents people from selling at the market rate. I take on board the points about showing the property and achieving the best market rate, and the idea that vacant possession may provide a slightly larger amount. I think on balance, looking at the Bill, and we quizzed the Department on this, it allows people not only to achieve the market rate but actually allows landlords to achieve the market rate much quicker than they otherwise would. They can secure the price of the property much sooner than if they were to go down the route of vacant possession. It facilitates landlords in achieving much more quickly the rate that they would otherwise have achieved. For those landlords in financial difficulty, this speeds up the process, allows the sale to happen and allows it to be done more quickly. They achieve the market value. Do the witnesses accept that is one benefit of the scheme?

Mr. Brendan Allen

There is that potential but the experience is generally that, if a council or another government body is involved in the sale, it is exceptionally long.

In the case of a private sale?

Mr. Brendan Allen

In the case of a private sale, fine, it will be done very quickly. As I said earlier-----

So a landlord in financial difficulty who intends to sell the property can, under this legislation, secure the cash value of that property much sooner than in the current situation.

Mr. Brendan Allen

I cannot answer that, with respect.

According to Senator Cummins's timeline, people can sell the property to the tenant in situ within the period and not have to go down the route of having an eviction period and then a transaction period.

Mr. Brendan Allen

There is a difference between a sale being agreed and money changing hands.

Mr. Brendan Allen

That is what our problem is. A landlord wants to sell because he has his own difficulties and it is not to cause a homeless person to arrive at Threshold's door. What we are trying-----

Mr. Davitt indicated it could be problematic to achieve market value because of gaining access for visitation and so on. Mr. Allen is indicating as part of the process that one concern he has is that legitimate offers would not be followed through. Those are two things we can take away and include in the legislative process.

Mr. Maurice Deverell

There are also complications. When we start adding in complications such as the John Gormley non-principal private residence, NPPR, tax, which is still running, solicitors have to get all that finished up. All the complications of adding this in make the process move forward more slowly. Going back to the original point, do we actually need it?

I am anxious to ask Threshold one question. One of the successes over the past year has been the tenant in situ scheme. By the end of the year, the local authorities will have more than 2,000 people protected by that. Does Threshold believe the Bill goes far enough to ensure the council has the right to purchase and that it is not a voluntary arrangement? I have to say in all circumstances I have dealt with that the landlords have jumped at the opportunity to sell, in part because it allows them to remove the estate agent from the process. It is an attractive offer since they do not have to go down the road of showing the property and so on. Does it go far enough for the tenant in situ scheme, cost rental, and people who wanted to exercise the first home scheme?

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

Head 7 deals with that. The only objection we had was that Part 4 tenancies, from the Tyrrelstown amendment, do not apply. Everything else was fine.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

I am happy with what the Deputy said in the beginning and with what he said right along, with a few amendments to it. He is right that a property sale could happen quicker, providing the landlord and tenant are in agreement. If they are not in agreement, that is where we run into a problem, because the property will have to be vacant to get the proper amount of money for it. The Deputy is right and has a good idea of where we are going. We are not here to disturb any situation. We are here to point out the different scenarios that can happen. Taking that into consideration, if that happens at the moment, landlords and tenants do something similar. If that is the case, from what the Deputy is saying, I do not know why this Bill would be here at all.

In any event, having the Bill here, I still think the 90 days is not correct. I will give the part of the Bill for the Deputy to look at. I will not argue the case. I refer to page 15 of the Bill, in head 39(b)(iii), which asks for a further period. If we can get an explanation for that, we will see what the situation is. As the Deputy says, at the moment, it is only in the event of a disagreement that a property will have to be shown.

If a tenant agrees to pay the money for the property and the owner agrees to sell it, of course that is great. The legal end that we have been speaking about is a different situation. We know that a Bill is going through the Dáil to try to decrease these periods.

The one measure that has not yet been used quite sufficiently is where people have the opportunity to use the first home scheme for a second-hand property. We do not want it to be used widespread in the second-hand market because it would inflate the price. For tenants being evicted, using the first home scheme to borrow only 70% of the value of the second-hand home where they are living would be a great advantage. They would not otherwise have it to bid on the house next door or down the road. The right to purchase copper-fastens a tenant's ability to exercise this. If they did not have this right they would not achieve the same benefit. This is one of the reasons it is important. It gives people the opportunity to buy under the first home scheme the home from which they are being evicted while not allowing them to use it on another property.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

It is the first time the scheme has been used. We went through it last week and we are aware of it. It is a great scheme for this purpose. In the event that people can do this and money will be given for a second-hand property it is a good development.

In all circumstances the seller still receives the same value as otherwise.

The interaction from the witnesses and the members has been very helpful. I am worried that the perception going out from this is that in some way we are trying to restrict landlords from selling their properties. I sense this is what is being picked up. Some of the witnesses are from a representative body for the sellers and landlords. This may be perceived by landlords of properties. In the departmental briefing I asked for a very clear guidance document on what is being proposed, what are the steps and how it might impact positively or negatively. This would be very helpful. There was interaction between Senator Cummins and Mr. Deverell about the 90 days and whether someone can come back with a second offer. We will get clarity on this and come back to the witnesses. Often something occurs to people after they have left the room, such as a question they wished they had asked. In such a case I ask the witnesses to write to us. We had a briefing with the Department and we have briefing documents. We will have a public session with the Department on Thursday and we can get questions and clarity on the record.

My reading of this is that it will not restrict. It is often the case that somebody who wants to buy something will ask to be allowed first offer. It develops a relationship between two people. It is not in any way restrictive or binding but it develops a relationship. It gives an opportunity for a tenant who may face a notice to quit or eviction. Even though we have introduced the rule on the number of days, it is still a very challenging time and very stressful. This legislation will develop a relationship between a person and their landlord that they can pursue with the benefit of Threshold and the other schemes we have introduced. This is what we are trying to do.

This is not a silver bullet to solve rental issues for landlords or tenants or to solve affordability. It is another small piece that when we add them all together, and Deputy McAuliffe listed them, I honestly think we see that tenants' rights have been improved. I will not speak about the cost of rent because that is a whole other area. Tenants' rights have possibly been improved more in the past three years than over a long time before that. When we spoke about the tenant in situ scheme with Threshold it was of this view. These are my comments and clarity on my thoughts.

I want to speak to Threshold about the other options that we have introduced. The local authority option to buy was being done by Dublin City Council prior to the introduction of the tenant in situ scheme but all local authorities can do it now. There is also cost rental with the Housing Agency. Will Threshold inform the committee about how it believes these processes are going at present? Are there other changes we need to make? We will admit there are concerns about the general scheme of the Bill but I ask about these two particular issues.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly

They are running incredibly well now. Certainly the tenant in situ scheme in which the local authority purchases the property got off to a slow start and there were definitely difficulties. We saw some local authorities not so quick to pick it up compared to others. Some local authorities felt they needed more guidance and assistance with it. It now seems to be running very well. Overall we are quite happy with how it is going.

We have not seen as much with cost rental. This is understandable because it was only introduced in March. It has taken a while to get going. Only a small number of properties have been bought so far with a number in process. I cannot really say much more about it yet until we see more of it. Overall it is very positive. These are people who are already living in the homes. There is no reason they should not get to continue living there, versus somebody else who might wish to buy it. Obviously everybody who needs a home has a genuine need but at least those people who are already there and settled in the community with children in school get to continue living there. Overall it is largely positive.

This has also been my experience. It has been slow to start but we have introduced something that is quite big and loaded it onto the local authorities, which have an awful lot of duties as it is. With cost rental we have the banding of income levels whereby people do not qualify. Perhaps there will be a smaller cohort.

Mr. Zak Murtagh

With regard to the cost rental and tenant in situ scheme we hear there are certain issues about red tape with accessing the schemes and teething problems. It is something on which we might want to make a further submission or broaden it out. We run a legal clinic where I speak to various advisers from our various services nationwide. They have indicated they feel that bureaucratic and red tape issues may be attached to these. By all means we will follow up with more detail on this.

The committee would be interested to get feedback on this to see what we can do to this improve or streamline the process. Senators Cummins and Fitzpatrick and I visited an LDA site in Shanganagh today. A large amount of cost rental housing is coming along there. The concept of cost rental has been slow because it is a new concept. We only legislated for it in the Affordable Housing Act which I believe was in July 2021. I appreciate that it will be slow. It is possibly legislation on which we will look back in a decade and say it was a turning point on secure long-term tenancies. These are the comments I wanted to make and we will be interested to hear the feedback from Mr. Murtagh.

I welcome all of the witnesses. I agree they should have had more notice and we do need to revisit this. The submissions of the witnesses have been very informative. We will also have to make sure that in future any correspondence does not clash with a president's dinner or a president's weekend. It is good to get their perspective.

It is quite possible to safeguard landlords' rights and tenants' rights at the same time. As a housing committee, it is very important that we do this. To the best of the Government's ability, I would like to think that we have endeavoured to do this.

I hope we will continue to do the same for the lifetime of the Government. I believe most of the representatives in here would agree with what I have observed, which is that very few people who come in to me say that they want to buy the house when they have been given a notice to quit. What they want to do is stay in the house. In that respect, the tenant in situ and cost-rental schemes have ticked an awful lot of the boxes. Some speakers have already referenced that these are working very well and have merit, although they may need some fine tuning. I would question whether we need this new layer in the process. Perhaps we need to do more with our cost-rental and tenant in situ schemes and to make it easier for tenants to avail of them. We also have to acknowledge that an increasing number of tenants want to remain tenants. We in Ireland are obsessed with the right to property, homeownership and buying a house but there are a lot of people who are quite happy to remain as tenants and should be given that right. In that respect, the tenant in situ scheme works very well. From my experience, it is working very well.

I agree with the witnesses on the transfer issue. There will be complications for people who want to transfer to a family member. The point on nursing homes is very good, and we need to explore the matter further. That would certainly cause some concerns. I also agree that there is an opportunity for less scrupulous tenants to exploit the situation, to extend and to go for the full 90 days, elongating the process. There needs to be some safeguards in that regard. The IPAV's recommendation that there should be a public commitment from Government on the transfer of properties to spouses and family members is important. We have long safeguarded and upheld property rights in this country. We need to do that. I have some reservations about the legislation so today's meeting has been timely from the point of view of both Threshold and the witnesses' organisations. I would welcome an opportunity to have the speakers back in at a later date. That is all I have to say for today. I have no questions.

To tease things out a little bit more, I have a question for Mr. Davitt. Let us say I came into an estate agent and said I wanted to buy a property that was on the market for €350,000 and that I had mortgage approval in principle. Many people can get approval in principle; the difficulty comes with the final part. Let us say I put in a bid of €350,000 on that property and that I then encountered difficulties subsequent to making that bid. How quickly does the estate agent determine that I cannot ultimately come up with the €350,000? I know it is different for every person but how long would that take in a typical case? It does happen. It happens to estate agents. I know many of the IPAV's members.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

The estate agent would ask the purchaser, Senator Cummins in this case, how he or she intends to buy the property for the given figure. Was it €250,000 the Senator said?

It was €350,000.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

We would tell the Senator-----

It is a second-hand property not a new build.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

Is the Senator a tenant?

Mr. Patrick Davitt

The Senator is nobody; he is just coming to a buy a property. Typically, if we were selling a property for €350,000 and the Senator ultimately bid €350,000 on it, there and then on the spot, we would ask how he intended to pay for the property.

Let us say I intend to pay for it through a mortgage.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

If the Senator was going to pay for it by means of a mortgage, we would more than likely accept approval in principle. It depends on which bank it is from. Some of the banks do them in five minutes and, as the Senator knows, when you go to get the money, it could take five hours, five days or five weeks.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

It depends on the bank the approval is from but that may prove the Senator can buy the property. We do not sell the property ourselves. While we do the processing, at the end of the day, it is the vendor who accepts the person to buy the property. If we go back to the vendor and tell him or her that the Senator has put in an offer of €350,000 and can prove he has the funds, that is well and good. If the vendor had no other bidders, he or she would obviously accept that offer. If he or she had a cash bidder, he or she might choose that bidder because things would happen more quickly. That is the process. An agent would know very quickly whether the purchaser could buy the property or not.

What happens if I then encounter a difficulty? I will tell Mr. Davitt where I am going with this. Within three months, you would definitely know that the sale is going to break down.

Mr. John Kennedy

It depends on the circumstances of the person. Are they buying a home? Are they in a hurry to sell, having committed to another property? There are different scenarios in which timelines become more urgent. There can come a point at which the vendor cannot or will not wait any longer. That is the point the Senator is asking about but there are many situations and complications.

Typically, you would not be waiting three months for somebody to-----

Mr. John Kennedy

It has happened and people have waited longer because they will have to kick-start the whole process again because the other bidders they had are gone. They have to weigh up the fact that they are going to have to reboot the whole process and start viewings again if they withdraw from the sale.

I assume they would have taken a deposit at some point.

Mr. John Kennedy

That is refundable.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

It must be remembered that, at this particular stage, the buyer will have had the benefit of viewing the property. Viewing that property is a problem if there is a tenant in it. That is what I am trying to say.

I take the point on the viewing of the property. However, within 90 days, the owner will know the tenant's best offer. To be clear on further invitations to bid, the briefing memo from the Department says that if, following an unsuccessful bid by the tenant during the initial 90-day period, the landlord proposes to enter into an enforceable agreement to sell to a third party on the open market at a value that is lower than or equal to the value of the highest bid made by the tenant during the 90-day period, the landlord is required to give a further invitation to bid to the tenant. That is where the third-party offer is lower or equal to the tenant's bid and not above. If there is a bid from the private market that is higher than what the tenant has offered, there is no requirement to give that tenant a second or third chance. I have clarified that with the Department, and we can clarify it again on Thursday. That is the crux of this matter. To be quite honest, if that was not in it, I would have the same view as the IPAV. I teased that out. If that is the case, is the IPAV still of the view that it would slow the process down? I just do not see how it would if the owner does not have to go back to the tenant. The best bid is made within 90 days. On the open market, you might not even get a bid within 90 days. At least owners will know what their base figure is within the 90-day period.

Mr. John Kennedy

If a bid is received, it has to be legally recorded. It is there in any event.

That is another point I raised last week. There is nothing in the heads of Bill to say that the bid from the tenant has to be officially recorded. My concern about that process is that, subsequent to the fact, when the property is sold on the open market to somebody else, a tenant could say that they had offered a given amount and that the owner said it would be taken under consideration.

Mr. John Kennedy

If the owner is dealing with an agent, by law, it must be recorded. There is no choice in that.

However, in this process wherein the tenant is given 90 days, I suggest that it would be helpful for bids to have to be formally recorded. Does the IPAV agree with me? You do not want a situation to arise in which somebody subsequently claims they bid €350,000 when the property went for €350,000.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

What we are trying to say is that the bid is recorded. From what the Senator has read out, it is not crystal clear that is the situation.

If one goes to auction, one is in a situation where one than has to go back to the tenant. I am sorry. We have looked at it and what we have come out of it with. I know the committee has the advantage of going to the Department and so on, but we do not have that advantage. We are only looking at what is in front of us. What is in front of us shows me that if, in 90 days, a tenant makes an offer on the property, if that offer is the highest, that is fine. If, however, the tenant's offer is not the highest and somebody else has the highest offer, there is an issue. If one wants to go to auction with the property and is outside the 90 days, if you then get a higher offer, in my opinion, you have to go back to the tenant. Senator Cummins says that it is not necessary to go back to the tenant. If that is not necessary, then the whole situation will be clarified.

That is the question I have. If one does not have to go back to the tenant, Mr. Davitt would be satisfied.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

If it is not necessary, of course I would be satisfied, because one gives the tenant the offer to buy the property inside the first 90 days-----

Mr. Patrick Davitt

-----and that is it. If the tenant buys it, is the highest bidder and the landlord wants to sell it, that is fine. If landlords do not think they are getting the proper price and want to go to auction with the property or sell it in some other format, such as by means of private treaty, then they do not have to go back to the tenant to match any of the bids. Nobody is stopping tenants from turning up at auctions and, even though they are outside the 90 days, still bidding on the property. There is nothing stopping that today. That is why we are asking if the proposed Bill is really needed. As matters stand right now, it is possible to do exactly what the Senator described. Why would we need to put it into a Bill?

Mr. Maurice Deverell

There is only one change in the Bill, which is that the landlord can be done for €20,000 in damages. Otherwise, everything else is the same as it is today.

That is the point I mentioned about that bid being formally recorded. I feel there is a necessity for that to be in legislation because we do not want a situation where people come back after the fact to say they actually bid €350,000 when they did not do so.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

That is covered by the legislation relating to Property Services Regulatory Authority, PSRA. Every bid has to be recorded. In the event of a complaint about a bid, that a bid has not been made, the person involved can make an application or a complaint to the authority, which can go to investigate those bids that are made. The agent must have a bidding slip to show that the bid is made, must show what time it was made at, the amount of the bid, and that the agent has passed on the bid to the vendor. It is up to the vendor to decide what the situation is. If it carries on outside the 90 days, the vendor will not have the choice. That is the problem that we see with this.

We will ask the Department-----

Mr. Patrick Davitt

Exactly.

-----about the PSRA obligations on Thursday. I am sure it is listening in and will be ready for the answer on Thursday.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

I thank the Senator.

Mr. Maurice Deverell

If the Senator is talking to the Department, there is another issue regarding old people going to nursing homes. They have to be dead for this Bill to work. The problem is that sometimes old people go to nursing homes who do not think they are going to stay in the nursing home. They actually live with the hope that they will get back to their own house and then might want to rent it out. Then they find that, financially, the fair deal worked to their favour or did not, or they might just be broke and want money to do their hair, but they cannot sell the house without offering it forward. That is a pity, because old people do not just leave nursing homes when they are dead. Although they are in the nursing home, are very frail and are months away from it, the Bill should cover this in some way so that they are allowed to get vacant possession. One can do without it for probate.

Mr. John Kennedy

Senator Cummins talked about agents seeking the best price for their clients, but he completely left out the part where agents actually manage the whole process after the price has been agreed. He talked about things falling through. That is where agents really come into their own in helping to solve problems, whether issues that come up with certifications or even advising the purchasers to help them navigate through the difficulties of getting the money. When one circumvents an agent, it is not as simple as that. Agents bring experience to help and advise purchasers and vendors to try to keep that deal together, which is part of the job as well.

To be clear, I never suggested circumventing an agent, because it is an essential part of the process. I agree wholeheartedly. If the witnesses took that up from anything I said there-----

Mr. John Kennedy

No. It was mentioned earlier that maybe it would not have been-----

Mr. Patrick Davitt

Head 4 covers this. We said before the Senator came in that the head states that documentation about the loan should be passed to the vendor's solicitor. Even if an agent is dealing with the property, it would be passed to the vendor's solicitor. We believe it should be passed to the agent acting on behalf of the vendor or, in the event that an agent is not acting, maybe the solicitor for the vendor. Many vendors do not have solicitors at that point. Why would somebody who is buying a property, using an agent, suddenly decide to engage a solicitor? They would pick a solicitor if they do not have one and would need to give their loan documentation to that solicitor, instead of giving it to the agent who is used to looking at this every day of the week. The third part of head 4 unfortunately does not make sense. We would like for that to be looked at and amended, if possible.

It is not actually a legal requirement to have an agent. If two people willingly want to buy and sell a house, they can.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

Exactly. All we need to put in is the words "agent or solicitor".

Yes. In the scenario that Senator Cummins is talking about, where the tenant has offered a bid to the landlord in line with what is here, how do we record that? There is no agent in the mix at that stage. If I was the tenant and said that I could offer €380,000, there has to be some to record that bid.

It has to be recorded at some point.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

The committee needs to put into the eventual legislation that every sale should involve an agent. That would simplify it.

Mr. Davitt would like us to put that in, of course.

I am not trying to in any way negate the good work that agents do. They do try to streamline the process of a difficult and large transaction. I am talking about the early stages where landlords have gone to tenants and said that, firstly, they have to serve the notice to bid and the right to bid to the RTB at the same time. That process has started, so there may be no agent involved for a good few months.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

I am being flippant. I am sorry. I felt I could not help but add that piece in but I am being flippant.

What are the legal constraints when I see a sign saying "Sale Agreed" on a property? What does that actually mean? Can offers keep being taken? Does it in any way provide safety or security for the person for whom the property has gone sale agreed?

Mr. Patrick Davitt

It means that the property is sold to somebody on the basis of the price that person is offering to pay for it. That is really all it means. It does not mean to say that the property is bought or anything. We cannot do that. Gazumping is well within the law, wherein somebody could see a sign on the property stating that it is sold, and somebody such as the Cathaoirleach bought it for €350,000 and the agent has taken a deposit, etc., on it. People could see the property and say that they missed that and meant to bid more on that, or, worse than that, they could say they wanted to let the bidding go to the end and that now they are going to make a bid on it. The Cathaoirleach could come along and offer me, the agent, €370,000 for it, and I would, by law, have to go back to my vendor and tell the vendor that there is another bid on the property for €370,000 and ask if the vendor wants to accept that or is happy to stay with the €350,000. Some vendors will stay with the original offer and some will not, depending on if it is a larger sum or not. Sale agreed means very little except that the property a sale has been agreed with somebody at that particular time.

So it just says that it has got to a certain stage, that somebody has done research on the property, seen it to be good value, maybe had engineers' reports done, and had all of that lined up, then somebody else sees the "Sale Agreed" sign, knows that a person has done the background work on that property and decides to go and find out. Could any member of the public then walk into the estate agents and ask what the sale agreed price was?

Mr. Patrick Davitt

The agent may not tell that person what the sale agreed price was.

The agents do not have to, or they may or may not?

Mr. Patrick Davitt

I would say they do not have to but many agents feel that they are under an obligation to tell people, especially if they have been bidding on the property prior. If people have been bidding on the property prior, for €345,000, for example, and the property went for €350,000, they will have an idea that the property went for that figure anyway. In other cases, if the property is sold for €350,000 and people have never bid on the property, there are other ways that they can find out how much the property was sale agreed for apart from the agent. There could be a brochure on the property. They may even go to the vendor, ask how much the vendor got for the property and say they are prepared to give the vendor more. The person who owns the property may well decide to cut out his or her agent despite the fact that he or she cannot do that because there is a PSRA legal agreement with the agent on the sale of the property.

There are many ways that people can find out the value or what the property was sold for, but if it happened to be brought in in this proposed Bill that gazumping was against the law, agents would be absolutely delighted.

As an agent, there is nothing as bad as having to go back and tell someone who bought a property in good faith for say, €350,00, that there is now an offer of €370,000 on it. What is even worse, many vendors would not go back to the under bidder. The agent is then left with a lot of egg on his or her face. They cannot even go back and take a further offer. Even if they were allowed to go back and give the under bidder or, as it would be then, the sale agreed person, the opportunity to make a further offer, it would be something. In many cases, one cannot do that. If an agent does not go to the vendor with the further offer, they are afraid of the person themselves going to the vendor. "Sale agreed" means very little, except that a vendor is happy to sell the property at that price. That is really all it is.

I know people who have been desperately disappointed when they have gone to "sale agreed" suddenly find out that there are another five offers on the table. We really should try to tighten this up. If a sale has been agreed, that should be it. To go another €5,000 or €10,000 does not really provide much for an estate agent, so there is not much incentive for them to encourage people to do that.

I did not understand the point being made regarding the fair deal scheme and nursing homes. There are approximately 22,000 people in the fair deal scheme. Not all of those properties are vacant, some of the people have surviving partners. As of November, only 44 households in the scheme had availed of the changed tax status. If someone is in a rental property and happens to be in the scheme, obviously, they will have the same rights and entitlements, depending on the length of the Part 4 tenancy in terms of notices of termination. What is the particular concern?

Mr. Maurice Deverell

It is the word "bequeathed". If the property is bequeathed and the old person actually dies in the nursing home, then it does not have to go through this process. However, if the old person is still alive in the nursing home, it does have to go through the process. I do not know how it could be written around, so to speak. It was one thing that struck me. When a person is old and in a nursing home, it seems a little bit mean.

There is a lot in this that says landlords "shall" and tenants "are obliged". That seems a little bit unfair because there are two parties to a contract where both sides are obliged and should follow the rule of law. It should not just be an obligation, we should actually do it.

The issue of unintended consequences came up earlier.

Before Mr. Deverell moves on, let me come back to the original question. Let me get this right. If the owner of the property, who happens to be in a nursing home, decides to sell the property, then is Mr. Deverell saying that he does not think this scheme should apply? If the person passes away and bequeaths the property to a family member, for example, they do not have to adhere to this process, so why should the owner of the property? Is that Mr. Deverell's point?

Mr. Maurice Deverell

Yes, it just seemed a little bit unfair on old people who are in nursing homes.

Let us take a real life example. My mother passes away in a nursing home and I inherit the house. If I am then going to sell the property why should I not be required to adhere to this process? I am selling the property so it seems to me there is no reason I should not. Obviously, if I have inherited the property and I want to move in, then I issue a notice of termination on grounds of use of the property for myself. The inference I would draw from Mr. Deverell raising the point is that there is no reason the person to whom the property is bequeathed should not have to comply with this system, if they choose to sell the property.

Mr. Maurice Deverell

Yes, but the point is that we are very short of rental properties at present. Therefore, if we discourage people who go into nursing homes from renting out their properties - and they are left vacant - it does not help with the State's obligation to provide housing because these properties should not be lying vacant. We should be encouraging rather than discouraging people. I just wanted to make the point about the use of the word "bequeathed" in the legislation.

Senator Cummins has been called to the Seanad for a vote. No other members are indicating to speak, so we will adjourn. We have a meeting with the Department on Thursday at 1.30 p.m. The witnesses are welcome to jot down any questions that occur to them. I know committee members always welcome when someone has written out the questions for them.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

Of course we will. The offer is much appreciated.

The timeline here is to have a meeting with the Department. We have also had engagement with the City and County Managers Association, CCMA, and with the Housing Agency and we are expecting some correspondence from both bodies. The Housing Agency has the cost rental and tenant in situ aspect as well. We will consider all submissions, so please get them to us as soon as possible. We intend to sit down on 19 December to finalise this report. If we had something the Monday before that, it would be very helpful.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.27 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Thursday, 7 December 2023.
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