JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, ENTERPRISE AND INNOVATION díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 Jun 2012

Cross-Border Employment Issues: Discussion with NIABT

Chairman

I welcome the delegation from the Northern Ireland Assembly and Business Trust, NIABT, to discuss business and political issues of mutual interest. I understand that, while the delegates have attended several parliaments, this is their first visit to the Oireachtas. I hope today and tomorrow will go well for them and that we will have a good exchange of views. This will probably be the first of many meetings in the coming years and we will work together on various issues.

The committee has changed slightly in the past week. We used to cover the Departments of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Education and Skills and Social Protection, but the old committee was split in two. This committee's main focus is on jobs, enterprise and innovation, while a second committee deals with education and social protection matters. I am conscious that the delegates are interested in the areas of enterprise, business innovation and, as a type of educational board, education. We can discuss these matters. Other members might attend during the meeting.

The committee visited Stormont approximately two months ago at Mr. Maginness's request and had a successful and useful meeting. It was its first meeting in Stormont and we hope to build on that process and meet more regularly to discuss various matters. Many cross-Border issues are of mutual interest and we could tease out solutions and ideas together.

We will meet the delegates at lunchtime and again at the reception in the British Embassy tonight. We will have a good chance over the course of the day to discuss various issues and establish contacts. I hope this is the start of a process of co-operation.

I welcome Mr. Alban Maginness, MLA, and Mr. Glyn Roberts of the Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association, NIIRTA. A different committee met and worked well with Mr. Roberts a few years ago on another issue and it is good to see him again. Also present from the NIABT are Ms Leslie Cree, MBE, MLA; Mr. Phil Flanagan, MLA; Mr. David McClarty, MLA; Mr. Peter Hall, secretary; Mr. John Rooney of Rooney Fish and Ms Joanne Stuart of Attrus Limited. Mr. Maginness and Mr. Roberts wish to make presentations, but everyone else is welcome to contribute and ask or take questions.

Mr. Alban Maginness, MLA

I thank the Chairman for his kind welcome. Mr. Flanagan, an MLA who represents Fermanagh, will join us later.

We welcome the opportunity to exchange views with the committee. I will summarise what the NIABT does. It was established in 2002 to offer parliamentarians and the business sector an educational and informative discussion forum at which each group could develop a greater understanding of their respective needs. It must be emphasised that the trust is an independent, neutral and self-financing educational charity that organises programmes for Assembly Members and business representatives. These programmes involve briefings, seminars, educational visits and fellowship placements. They are non-partisan, non-lobbying and mutually educational and informative. The trust is modelled on a similar organisation at Westminster. Speaking as an ordinary Assembly Member, the trust has been a remarkably successful organisation as far as the Assembly is concerned because we can make immediate contact with those involved in business and industry. Our mission statement is to advance and encourage businesses' understanding of the Assembly and Assembly Members' understanding of business. It would be remarkably good if all parliamentarians and politicians understood business.

A part of the trust's work is to visit parliamentary institutions. This group has visited the European Parliament, other European institutions and Westminster. These visits were successful. Today's visit is groundbreaking, in that it is the trust's first visit to the Oireachtas. The intention is for business people to try to understand the work of the Oireachtas and its committees and explore some of the issues between North and South with the purpose of engaging with business and making a few pounds. I hope we can have an informal exchange of views.

Mr. Roberts is the trust's vice chairman and will make a short presentation to the committee.

Mr. Glyn Roberts

I am delighted to return. In addition to being vice chairman of the NIABT, I am chief executive of the NIIRTA. Not only do I follow the committee's proceedings, I also follow Senator Feargal Quinn's excellent television programmes on RTE. He will not mind me giving him that plug.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Glyn Roberts

The trust performs a vital role. Prior to 1998, there was no interaction between the business community and local politicians, primarily because of direct rule. Now that the Assembly exists, it is vital that politicians and people from the business community learn more about what makes each group tick. Given that there is no more important political issue than growing the North's economy, we must move away from a public sector-dominated economy to one in which the private sector is in the driving seat. It is essential that the business community understands what MLAs and Ministers do and, vice versa. The trust has been working hard on ensuring MLAs spend a day in a business learning what happens on a day-to-day basis. Business membership of the trust ranges from small to large businesses and covers every sector, or at least most of the main sectors, in the Northern Ireland economy. We are not about policy. I am sure the business organisations in the North - I do not speak for them all - would welcome dialogue with this committee.

We recently produced a document entitled "The Jobs Plan" to which the eight main business organisations in Northern Ireland signed up. This was the first time eight business groups anywhere on this island signed up to such a document. While it is not open to me to comment on policy, this highlights that the business community is providing solutions rather than problems to Ministers, thus ensuring they have an impact and follow through on the programme for Government priorities, including the economic strategy and the investment strategy set out by the Executive. The long term vision for the economy is growth of our indigenous business base while remaining competitive enough to attract new foreign direct investment, in respect of which the corporation tax is a key measure.

The trust is about creating understanding. We have held numerous events and have, as stated by Mr. Maginness, visited Westminster and the European Parliament on several occasions. This has provided many business members with a knowledge and understanding of the pressures on MLAs and vice versa. Given the nature of Northern Ireland politics the business community has traditionally chosen not to get in political parties. I believe that will change and that the move to politics based on issues such as the economy will result in more engagement with the business community. The trust has an important role to play in this regard.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Roberts and Mr. Maginness for their opening remarks. The trust appears to work well. It is perhaps a model that could be adopted here locally and at a national level. We will now move to questions and answers.

Senator Feargal Quinn

Has the trust been successful in coaxing and encouraging business people to get involved in politics? In my experience, most politicians are either teachers or lawyers. While we need participation by both of those professions we also need business people to get involved. Senator Mary White, who is a successful business woman and joined politics from there, has just joined us. The number of people who have come into politics from business is comparatively small. The opposite is the case in the United States in that one does not get elected until one has been successful. I acknowledge there are some exceptions in that regard. In general, the Americans do not believe a person is capable of running the State unless he or she has previously run a business. We could learn from that point of view.

The view is that foreign direct investment is from where jobs will come in the future. While foreign direct investment will bring jobs the real success are entrepreneurs. I would like to see a better mix in politics, North and South. Are there many people from the business community in the Northern Ireland Assembly? A man called Jerry Kennelly, who is from Kerry, built up a very successful business, which he sold and then started up another, namely, the development of young entrepreneurs. He assists 600 entrepreneurs each year. I attended one of his sessions this year. He teaches entrepreneurship to 16 year olds in a school, 600 of whom attended the session which I attended. These young people were being encouraged to set up business. It was a joy to meet young people, one of whom was only 16 years old, who had developed a business, in one case using the Internet from a base in Kerry to sell to 22 countries around the world. I mention this because I believe it is important we focus not solely on foreign direct investment but on people who are willing to set up businesses and to do so at an early age. Perhaps the witnesses will tell us if there have been any similar successes in the North.

Mr. Alban Maginness, MLA

On politics - Members are aware we have come through the Troubles - there are probably more conviction politicians in the North than anywhere else in the world because one had to be steadfast in one's political commitment throughout many years. While we eventually achieved a political settlement, imperfect though it may be, there remains that cadre of politicians who are attached to the various political parties. We have not moved beyond that point very much. People on the edges are getting involved in politics, in particular young people who are taking positions perhaps not as MLAs yet but working towards that. It is important this development is encouraged by all political parties. It will inevitably bring about a new set of representatives in terms of backgrounds. It is hoped some will come from business and from the law. As far as I am aware, apart from myself there are only two lawyers in the Assembly. There is a need for a greater mix of people from society. One of the problems in the North is that many people, in particular in the professions and business, opted out of politics. We need to encourage them into the political arena, which is a challenge as Members know.

As regards entrepreneurs, Government and Invest Northern Ireland have gone a long way to encourage young entrepreneurs and an entrepreneurial spirit. We still have barriers to that taking place but the effort is being made. It is perhaps up to the business representatives here to explain whether it is successful and how we can further encourage the spirit of entrepreneurialism within our society.

Mr. Glyn Roberts

On Senator Quinn's question, Northern Ireland is a small business economy. Some 99% of all business is small business. We have terrific examples of world class small businesses. While we need to focus on getting more FDI we also need to ensure that our indigenous business base raises its game. Obviously, as Members will be aware, change in the retail sector is constant. I can point to several new retail entrepreneurs who are playing their part. There is a need to review our education system in this regard. For example, self employment is regarded as a career option for graduates. Previously, graduates took up positions in the public sector or in the Civil Service. We need to encourage them into the private sector and self employment. Starting a small business is seen as a legitimate career option. I know from my ongoing contact with the University of Ulster retail studies course that many first year students have already put together a business plan around what type of retail entrepreneur they want to be when they graduate. They are already having dialogue with various people in the private sector and university authorities. We have some good examples, although we must do much more. It will be a case of watching this space.

Mr. Leslie Cree, MLA

First, I should clear up this issue about my gender, as my name card states that I am Ms Leslie Cree.

Senator Mary M. White

Mr. Cree can speak to his wife about it.

Mr. Leslie Cree, MLA

I might take it back with me to her.

Senator Mary M. White

She is a formidable lady.

Mr. Leslie Cree, MLA

The Senator makes a good point. I come from a business background, with more than 30 years in business. A business friend actually brought me into politics and I have never forgiven him for that. I have been totally unsuccessful in getting any other business people into politics. They look at me sympathetically and tell me to carry on because I am doing a good job. Nevertheless, it is important.

The Senator mentioned the USA, and anybody can rise through politics there. We have had cowboys as president and there may be further cowboys in that position. It is a totally different ethos. Mr. Roberts made the point about training for entrepreneurship and creating that seed. I fully subscribe to his view on the universities, although I believe the process begins at a lower level. When I speak to pupils in primary schools about entrepreneurship, I ask them about the possibility of starting their own business, and I do the same in secondary schools. I do not know if this country has an organisation similar to our Young Enterprise, which is great for developing young people and making them aware, at an early age, of the benefits of business. If there were many more business people in politics, it would be much easier.

Mr. Phil Flanagan, MLA

An important question has been raised. When I was elected I was the youngest member of the Assembly, although I have been superseded in that position due to a co-option in South Down. In talking about trying to get people involved who are not stereotypical politicians or who were not involved in the historical conflict, it can be a difficult challenge. When I stood for election, I said it was not a job for an older person, but I have since realised it is not a job for a man with a young family either. I am still trying to find out who the job is for. If somebody is single and has no commitments, it might suit, but late nights, early mornings and travelling around the North and further afield means it is a challenge for anybody.

Mr. Roberts mentioned the profile of business we have in the North, with the normal example being small organisations with one or two staff members. If one of those people is to become involved in elected political life, it can mean the end of a business. We must overcome this problem, which is similar to the dilemma facing parents or anybody else. It could be true of any background.

In recent years there has been a massive increase in the number of people coming from business and other backgrounds. They want to get involved in politics not to stand for election but rather to join a political party so as to influence policy and try to effect change. They do not want to be the face of an organisation in standing for election but they want to make a difference, no matter how small. The most recent example I have is somebody working with an autism charity. That person is not necessarily keen on standing for election but does much good advocacy work on behalf of that autism charity and wants to join a party to try to effect internal change. That is what is happening, albeit slowly, and it will take a while before we can get more business people and others from outside politics into the political sphere. It is slowly coming about.

Ms Joanne Stuart

I will speak a little about entrepreneurship. I was at the Aviva Stadium yesterday with The Ireland Funds judging the business plan competition for the nine universities on the island. When one sees the standard of some of the ideas coming through, one can see we have a bright future, although it is about creating the right ecosystem to support those entrepreneurs. Mr. Cree mentioned Young Enterprise, which has an equivalent of Junior Achievement Ireland in the South, in the engagement with business. The majority of businesses are keen to get involved with school pupils, encourage them and help to mentor them through business.

I am a director of the Northern Ireland Science Park, which is about developing the knowledge economy and innovation-led companies in Northern Ireland. We are developing this ecosystem of business people, either in the legal professions or entrepreneurs, to help those up and coming entrepreneurs with their ideas. We are working with universities and further education colleges to help people to take research and development and see how they can commercialise it in order that we can really start to grow our indigenous base within Northern Ireland.

With a focus on young people we also have Generation Innovation, a programme working with youths aged 16 or 17 to encourage and show them the exciting opportunities in the world, as well as the kinds of companies that can be created. It is about giving them an alternative to going into the professions, as people are still pointed towards the legal area, accountancy and medicine in Northern Ireland. This programme gives some wider options. There is also the social enterprise sector. In my business I work with social entrepreneurs and enterprises on how they can grow. It is also a growing and important sector in Northern Ireland. As Mr. Roberts noted, there is still more to do but many people are stepping up to the plate to support entrepreneurs, either in the private or social sectors.

Mr. John Rooney

For more than 35 years I have worked in the seafood industry. As people know about the fishing sector, we do plenty of shouting all the time. I am involved with many organisations and committees. It seems people are able to shout harder from outside politics because when people shout from inside the political sphere, somebody tells them to be quiet. I see that all the time. I shout all the time and if people do not listen, I go to Brussels. I am involved with the Seafish organisation, the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development and many other bodies. At least I can get issues off my chest, which happens a lot.

Senator Feargal Quinn

One would think the fish business would make a good net profit.

Mr. John Rooney

Brussels has taken the issue well out of my power in recent years. Our sector has got it very hard but I fight for all sectors. I am involved with the Federation of Small Business as well and we work for small businesses, trying to help them out. Manufacturing Northern Ireland brought up the rates issue, and they have been capped at 30%. Such effort helps, although it took us a long time to persuade MLAs about such issues. If we had not worked from outside the political system, it never would have happened. Some people lose faith in government if a body tries to put a good issue forward but somebody on another bench looks to scrap it. We might be able to get in young people but their knowledge comes from an educational background. They do not have knowledge from experience, which is where the knowledge for government should come from.

Chairman

Although we might be polite, much shouting goes on behind the closed doors at party meetings. One might read about it in the media but it is not otherwise public. Deputy Tóibín is next and may have some thoughts on childhood, having become a new parent in recent weeks.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I welcome all the witnesses. I agree with Mr. Phil Flanagan, MLA. I had a young garsún born to the house in the past three weeks so it is hard to keep the eyes open at times, both at home and here. I come from a business background and worked in the North of Ireland for approximately three years, based in Armagh city as a management consultant. I worked with InterTradeIreland in that period so I have a good insight on how business functions in the North of Ireland.

I come at this issue from a business background. The North and South have been doing business with their backs to each other. We have exported more goods to Belgium than to the North. Taxation and other structural elements have led to a cycle of boom and bust and in the long run that prevents long-term investment. People acknowledge that things may be good for two or three years, but are unsure of how things will work out in five years' time. We need to plan and develop together to iron out the significant barriers to trade and business. It strikes me that we are working as single economies and we need to develop a joint strategy.

On the island of Ireland, we have three tourism bodies, roughly doing the same thing. We have Invest Northern Ireland offices in cities across the world, where we have Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland offices and consulates. If the resources that are very thin on the ground on both sides of the Border could be used jointly, we could do a better job. From a purely business perspective, nobody would run a business in a similar manner to the way we are running the enterprise resources of this State. It was interesting to listen to the comments on universities. The InterTradeIreland programmes that I enjoyed the most were programmes that allowed graduates take a technology and work under the fusion programme with small businesses and bring that technology to business fruition, translating that academic knowledge into jobs. The focus programmes were brilliant because graduates who were wet behind the ears and had very little experience were put into businesses which enabled them to develop skills. I know from the focus programmes I was involved in that quite a number of my cohorts became self-employed. They were placed in very small businesses that were replete with enterprise energy and learned to create enterprise. I would like to hear the views of the delegates on how we can use our resources jointly to reduce costs. There is a cap on InterTradeIreland. In business one puts a cap on something when it reaches the limits of its success. When it is successful one does not try to put a cap on it. Why are we limiting the engines that are working for us in trade and enterprise?

Senator John Kelly

I warmly welcome all our guests to Dublin and I hope they will enjoy their stay. One of our Ministers promised good weather for the next couple of days - we are on a winner today.

I have a number of questions on the running of business in the North as distinct from the South, because I know nothing about the differences.

I understand that commercial rates have changed in the North. How is the rate set in the North and are the rates charged comparable to the commercial rates struck in the South? Are incentives, such as rates holidays or other measures offered to businesses to set up in the North? When employees are on sick leave, does the state pay their wages or do companies where they work pay them and, if so, for how many weeks are they entitled to be paid? If the business of a self-employed person fails and he or she needs to avail of social welfare or the DHSS, how is that dealt with in the North?

Senator Mary M. White

I welcome the delegation. To develop Senator Quinn's point on getting more business people and entrepreneurs into politics, I know from experience in the North that the business people North and South were one of the key drivers of the peace process, but they remained under the radar. Sir George Quigley, the then managing director of Brown Thomas and chairman of the Dublin Chamber of Commerce, was forever at meetings in the North and South, encouraging business people in the North to try to work for peace in Northern Ireland. He was one of the drivers of the peace process behind the scenes. There was a drive by business people and entrepreneurs behind the peace process so that the two parts of the island could function normally and not remain in a dysfunctional state. Being an entrepreneur is about creating employment. Mr. Terry Leahy, the former chief executive of Tesco, said in a speech a few months ago that Britain is a trading nation and he wanted to see more people setting up businesses. He expressed disappointment that his children and their colleagues at university wanted to go into management consultancy. We need people to produce goods that can be sold abroad. Senator Quinn would agree that setting up a business is not for the faint-hearted. I am very optimistic about the North. I am also optimistic about the South, where we had an agriculture-based economy. Until not so long ago, the North had a very sound industrial base and a world renowned reputation for ship building and linen. Some 90 years ago, Belfast was one of the key cities of the world because of its entrepreneurs and business people.

We want people to manufacture goods that people will want to buy. I totally agree with Senator Quinn that foreign direct investment is marvellous but we must develop our indigenous industry and get people to raise their game. Our most successful indigenous industry is in the food sector.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

I welcome the delegation and it is great to see all of those from the North. My mother is from Newry and I love the North and spent much of my life there. I had the privilege of being in Taiwan a few months and met Theodore Chang a successful businessman. When I asked for his advice, he told me that in the South, we spent too much time building finance centres and underground carparks. He was showing me around one of the 12 science parks, which Ms Joanne Stuart referred to, one of which makes a profit of €1 billion each year from electronics on an island half the size of Ireland with a population of 26 million people. He spoke of the need to manufacture goods and to be innovative. We need to create, imagine and manufacture goods. I do not come from a business background but an educational entrepreneurial background, but it was stark advice.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

I welcome the delegation. It is more of an invasion than a delegation but a friendly invasion and a most welcome one. The challenges we face have no borders and Europe demonstrates this very accurately. Given the challenges that remain to be solved, we should think in terms of borders melting away or not being barriers at the least. I am not from a business background but from a small farming and fishing background and I wish to offer some practical ideas for stimulating and enhancing the economy.

I understand the area of cultural tourism is the fastest growing part of the economy in the world. Let us consider the region that includes north-west Cavan, south Fermanagh, north Leitrim, east Sligo and south Donegal in terms of cultural tourism and the possible impact cultural tourism could have on food production and creativity in the presentation of food, as exemplified by the work of Neven Maguire. When one visits that area, within certain limits one is unsure whether one is in south Fermanagh or north Cavan. A number of elements are present which, when they combine creatively are most promising, whether relating to food, lakes, the mountains in Donegal, skiing, north Sligo, with its associations with poetry, or north Leitrim. I envisage this as an evolving and developing region. It is not one county or even one country. We should consider in a more dynamic way how we can mutually enhance entire regions which may have a topographical compatibility rather than a strictly geographical or country boundary basis. I imagine this applies to many other regions.

I am aware that those involved in the North have done a great deal with their industrial heritage. We have done little about our industrial heritage. This year will see a celebration of EU industrial heritage. We go to great pains to safeguard, celebrate and invoke our literary, music and artistic past. However, our industrial creativity, exemplified by the great trains that were built in Inchicore and the human ingenuity that went into them, has been forgotten about and written off the agenda, whereas in the North those involved have done the opposite. This could represent an evolving, rapidly developing foundation stone to develop the area of cultural tourism. Let us consider what the delegation has done with the mills in the North and so on. We have allowed ours go to rack and ruin. We could get some ideas from the delegation in these areas.

We should consider other regions such as the region to which I referred earlier. In north Donegal and Derry, Letterkenny and Derry merge into Inishowen and the hinterland has a great deal of potential for cultural tourism. There is potential for cleaner food and there is fishing in Killybegs. There is a great deal of untapped potential when we consider Ireland without the Border, especially in what is termed the Border region. There is potential to create synergies and a new focus that could stimulate what is taking place locally and what draws people in by virtue of culture, music, the arts and language. We should not forget the culinary delight that is the Ulster fry; that should go global. It is one thing to talk about small business but there are other factors which create interesting scenarios that command creativity but which are not always about making tangible things.

Chairman

It is a pity we only have one hour because there is a good deal more we could say but there will be further meetings.

Deputy John Lyons

I welcome the delegation to Dáil Éireann. We have only one hour and so far it has been a rather general discussion. It would be to good purpose if there were an opportunity in future to consider a strategic meeting to discuss core areas where both groups might have an interest and a genuine sharing of knowledge and ideas.

The area I represent includes Ballymun, Finglas and the surrounding areas. It is considered a disadvantaged area on the social deprivation index. There are considerable levels of unemployment there. The best solution to address poverty is to create a job for someone; it is the first step to get a person out of poverty. There appears to be something of a problem here at the moment whereby we are supply-led rather than demand-led. I have worked with people in some industries who have identified that numerous jobs are available in some sectors, for example the information technology sector, but the problem is a lack of skills.

Traditionally in Ireland, the culture has been that progress in education seems to involve one going to school, then to university and then one gets a qualification. However, some jobs are available for which people are not qualified at the moment but these posts do not require a third level qualification. We need to see a cultural shift in the way we view education. It should not be education for living. I realise I am shifting to the education area. What is the function of the Department of Education and Skills? Surely it is not only for learning, but learning for work as well. There should be more of a balance in education to produce a more rounded person. A job should represent a route to get someone out of poverty and to a better quality of life. I do not believe we have been successful down here to date but if we carry out a proper skills match, jobs are available for which we can train people.

One does not necessarily need a degree level qualification to do such jobs. Microsoft, Symantec and Accenture are among several companies calling out for staff in the information technology sector alone. I will finish with one interesting fact and it may help us to consider whether we are missing the target. I may have the figures wrong but the message is the same. On the mainland of Europe there are 36,000 wind turbines. Some 60% of these are below maintenance level because there are not enough people to carry out the maintenance. That indicates an opportunity for either the delegation or ourselves to do something about it. Jobs are available and we can create a different society but perhaps we should examine who is carrying out the changes in our systems and whether they are doing it correctly. Perhaps this is where we need more of a business balance on the committees that make these decisions to ensure that there are appropriate outputs. Ultimately, everyone who has been elected must stand before the electorate again. There is no point in my suggesting that we have great initiatives but it that it will take too long to roll them out. We need to be able to say that we can deliver jobs. I will leave the delegation with the figure about wind turbines to reflect on where we are headed.

Chairman

The final speaker before we start toing and froing is Deputy Joe McHugh. He is wearing several hats. He is Co-Chairman of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. Are you also Chairman of the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement?

Deputy Joe McHugh

No, not at the moment.

Chairman

You have two hats. Is that correct?

Deputy Joe McHugh

That will be a matter for the committee to decide.

Chairman

You are the potential Chairman.

Deputy Joe McHugh

I have no wish to pre-empt any election result. I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to speak. I am not a member of this committee. I welcome the diverse delegation of politicians and business people. I am more familiar with the politicians present. There are several first time visitors from the business community to Leinster House. All are welcome. I have read the biographies. There is diverse expertise. I imagine the knowledge the politicians are getting is invaluable. Deputy John Lyons has prompted me to focus on one aspect. Mr. Richard Hogg from Precision Gear Company is among the visiting group. Can a member of the visiting group answer a question? What is the protocol?

Chairman

He has to be here but he can answer it.

Deputy Joe McHugh

I mean no disrespect to the panel before us. I have a question for Mr. Richard Hogg and Deputy Lyons has prompted me to ask the question. The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, is today meeting his counterpart in the UK to discuss exports and renewable energy. EirGrid will have the interconnector between the UK and Ireland up and running, possibly by this September. I refer to joint projects between the UK and Ireland. For instance, David McClarty works closely with me on the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. We have been talking for years about cross-Border co-operation but much of the talk has been about intangibles, but it is great to see more tangible results. How can legislators, North and South, east and west, assist in the work being undertaken by Mr. Hogg who is providing one turbine gearboxes throughout the UK and Ireland and which is providing employment? The focus of this meeting today is how we can work together on a cross-Border basis. How can we as legislators in the North and South, work towards advancing the issue of more offshore wind energy in the seas around this island and throughout the British Isles?

Chairman

I will take Mr. Richard Hogg first on that question.

Mr. Richard Hogg

I think many things can be done between the two Governments and from a legislative point of view. There are many stumbling blocks for companies in both the North and South when it comes to wind, and the grid is the biggest issue we have. All of our wind is across the west coast, primarily off Donegal through into Galway and Kerry. The big issue is how to get it from that location across to the United Kingdom mainland, and this issue needs to be addressed. If we can sort out that problem, it means we will be able to export that power across to the UK or even into Europe. Our wind is a great resource and we are missing out at the moment. We need to deal with this as a priority. On the education side, there are some cross-Border initiatives between the Letterkenny institute and Belfast College whereby technicians are being trained for offshore and onshore work. A lot more could be done, in my view. I suggest the first thing needed is a really good grid incorporating all the island, and this will cost a lot of money. It is very important to have a good ring grid right around, and once this is in place, we will be able to make progress and we can put up offshore and onshore turbines.

Mr. Glyn Roberts

While I do not think we have time to answer all the questions, it is important to stress that the business community in Northern Ireland is not just moaning and complaining. We are bringing solutions to the table rather than problems. All of the main business organisations have produced their own manifestos ahead of successive Assembly elections. Eight business groups came together to produce the jobs plan and I urge the committee to look at this document. It sets out a coherent vision about how we can grow our private sector. Ms Joanne Stuart and I both had a hand in drafting the document. It shows how we can create 90,000 jobs in the private sector in the North.

The hands of the business community are seen in our programme for government, our investment strategy and the economic strategy. While these are not perfect documents, certainly they are much more pro-business than we have ever had previously.

On the question about business rates, we have a second extension of the small business rates relief scheme which has helped very small businesses at a time when they are struggling the most. We now have a rates holiday for new businesses taking up vacant shops in town centres and they will only have to pay 50% rates for the first year. Given the very high dereliction rate in many of our towns and city centres, we certainly hope this will incentivise new entrepreneurs to take up those empty units, thereby addressing the dereliction in our town centres. Also, as Senators and Deputies will know, the first year of any small business is the most critical period, and 50% rates for the first year helps with first year costs. The Executive has responded by listening to what the business community has said and it has put measures in place.

We now have a fantastic attraction in the Titanic signature project. Forty years ago, the shipyard employed 30,000 people. I lived in that working class part of Belfast so I know it well. Now we have revamped it completely. We are now able to attract movie companies to film in the shipyard, and productions such as “Game of Thrones” and numerous others have used the facilities. We are re-inventing ourselves and making ourselves attractive, not just in the old ways of industry but in new ways, such as attracting film companies. Nobody would ever have thought that the shipyard, which employed 30,000 people years ago, would become a Mecca for film directors.

Deputy John Lyons took the Chair.

Senator Mary M. White

I have a question about sick pay. This is a controversial issue in this jurisdiction because our Minister for Social Protection wants employers to be responsible for payment of illness benefit. Is the delegation familiar with this issue?

Mr. John Rooney

Most of it comes out of our pockets, out of the business. That is the situation in Northern Ireland and in the UK. The company pays the sick pay. The company can claim back maternity leave pay. Most sick pay must be paid by the company but a certain percentage may be claimed back. The administrative work costs more than what is being reclaimed. Therefore, a company will lose 99% and will have to pay out itself.

Senator Mary M. White

If the employee is out?

Mr. John Rooney

If the employee is out and is claiming sick pay, he or she will get the first 26 weeks. It depends whether the employee is paid a salary or an hourly rate. The salary is slightly reduced but the company still must pay it. In the case of the hourly rate, the employee is allowed £70 a week from the company. I am not sure because I do not look at those figures because they make me cross.

Mr. Phil Flanagan

Different companies and organisations have different policies. Some multinational organisations will offer as part of the contract of employment a full salary to be paid for six months sick leave, half salary for the next six months and then the person will receive statutory sick pay which is approximately £70 a week. Much depends on the employer and the terms and conditions of employment in place. It is primarily up to the employer. I presume that after a period of time of employment, a person will qualify for payment of sick leave by the employer. Generally the employer pays for the first six months sick leave.

Vice Chairman

Deputy Tóibín mentioned more collaboration to get the best out of Enterprise Ireland and the use of resources abroad such as consulates. I invite the delegation to speak on this point.

Mr. Alban Maginness MLA

Deputy Tóibín introduced a very interesting element to the discussion in respect of collaboration,not just North-South but also with regard to foreign trade and investment. Last week at the enterprise, trade and investment committee, the chief executive of Invest Northern Ireland indicated there was a good degree of co-operation between Invest Northern Ireland and Enterprise Ireland. He also mentioned that the overseas offices of Invest Northern Ireland and Enterprise Ireland co-operate informally. It is an interesting development and it highlights the need - which I would contend is very important - for collaboration, both at home and abroad.

The Deputy is correct in respect of InterTradeIreland. There is much more potential there to stimulate business on both sides of the Border. I would make a plea that we should try to depoliticise business, North and South. There are sensitive issues and there is no way of avoiding these or pretending that they do not exist. If we could, however, depoliticise business in some way, it would be mutually enriching for both parts of the island. Business people are very pragmatic and just want to get on with making money and creating wealth. We should let them do that and give them a depoliticised context in which to operate. That would be my plea to everyone, North and South.

Deputy Damien English resumed the Chair.

Chairman

A vote has been called in the Dáil. I will take contributions from the two remaining members of the delegation who are offering and we will then bring proceedings to a close. Our guests are due to take a coffee break and the next meeting they are due to attend commences at noon. In such circumstances, we would not make it back here in time to recommence proceedings prior to their next engagement. Our guests are welcome to remain here and chat with the Senators who are members of the committee and who are not obliged to be present in the Dáil.

Senator Mary M. White

In the context of co-operation with Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland, how are the authorities in the North faring in respect of the harmonisation of the tax rate?

Chairman

Two of our guests are offering, Senator. I am afraid I must take their contributions.

Senator Mary M. White

That is a crucial issue.

Mr. Phil Flanagan, MLA

Senator White has raised the matter to which I wished to refer. What I have to say follows on from what Mr. Maginness said in respect of Alastair Hamilton's indication that great work is ongoing between Invest NI, IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland. Mr. Hamilton alluded to the fact that the co-operation between these bodies only exists because they are targeting different companies. Those who invest in the South are here for the profit base, while people who invest in the North are there for a different reason. Mr. Hamilton also indicated that if there was a harmonisation of corporation tax across the island, there would be increased competition between Invest NI and the two organisations south of the Border. That would be a regrettable development. I have seen figures which indicate that huge costs are being incurred in the context of the duplication of offices right across the world and this means that there are still gaps. There is massive duplication of service provision in certain areas. This is a matter on which the business community must take a lead and in respect of which the FSB Northern Ireland has called for action. I agree with Mr. Maginness that there is a need to depoliticise this issue. There are political sensitivities with regard to matters of this nature. I would like to see progress being made in this area.

Mr. John Rooney

I wish to comment on co-operation between all Government bodies. Such bodies do not want to lose their identities and, therefore, they do not want to co-operation too much. They can go so far but at the end of the day they will stop short. I have seen that happen. I am aware of the position on both sides of the Border. It might not sound like it but I was born in Cabra in Dublin.

Chairman

The point Mr. Rooney makes is a fair one. I accept that we have not had an opportunity to deal with all the questions that were raised but there will be other occasions on which we can discuss matters. We are having lunch together at 1 p.m. and everyone is invited to the reception at the British Embassy this evening. As stated, our guests are due to have a coffee break now and if any members wish to remain on and chat with them, then they should by all means do so.

I thank our guests for attending. We dealt with many matters. These proceedings prove that there is a range of issues we can discuss and on which we work together in the coming months and years. I look forward to that.

Mr. Alban Maginness, MLA

On behalf of the delegation I take this opportunity to thank the committee very much for the reception we received and for giving us the opportunity to express our views. This is the start not, I hope, the finish of our relationship. I hope we can build on what has been a fascinating introductory session.

Chairman

It certainly has been fascinating and I apologise for the fact that we have been obliged to bring proceedings to such an abrupt end. I again thank our guests for attending. It was good to have them here.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.35 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 27 June 2012.