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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, ENTERPRISE AND INNOVATION díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Jun 2012

Unemployment and Youth Unemployment: Discussion (Resumed) with TASC

I welcome Ms Sinéad Pentony, head of policy at TASC. As members will know, TASC is an independent progressive think-tank dedicated to addressing Ireland's high level of economic inequality and ensuring that public policy has equality at its core. I am looking forward to hearing Ms Pentony's views, suggestions and solutions on unemployment and youth unemployment.

Before commencing, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite Ms Pentony to make her presentation, which will be followed by questions and answers. I do not know if Ms Pentony had the opportunity to see other presentation of this topic, but we are focusing on potential solutions and new ideas to tackle unemployment. Our target is to compile a report on behalf of the joint committee in early autumn which we will send to the relevant Ministers to try to ensue that action is taken to tackle unemployment and youth employment.

Ms Sinéad Pentony

I thank the Chairman and members of the Joint Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation for this opportunity to address it on behalf of TASC. I am head of policy at TASC.

My opening remarks are based on the written submission that TASC made to the joint committee in April. I will provide a brief overview of the extent of the unemployment crisis, an outline of the potential sources of employment, and a perspective on the main labour market policy initiatives adopted to date. I will conclude with a number of recommendations aimed at dealing with the specific issue of youth unemployment.

The rate of unemployment continues to rise. In the first quarter of this year, seasonally adjusted unemployment stood at 14.8%, that equates to 309,000 people. More worrying, individuals who have been unemployed for more than 12 months now account for over 60% of those currently looking for work, the highest level since the late 1990s. That means we have 187,254 people who are unemployed for more than 12 months. In the same time period, youth unemployment was 30.1%, which is 8.5 percentage points higher than the EU15 average.

Men represent two thirds of those who are unemployed, reflecting the collapse in the construction and related industries. However, in the past year there has been acceleration in the number of women becoming unemployed, accounting for three quarters of those who have been made unemployed in the past 12 months.

The number in employment, which is the employment rate, also continues to fall, and there are 338,000 fewer people at work than there were four years ago. Clear inequalities in the labour market now exist. In terms of inequalities within generations - which are largely a function of education and skill levels - the attainment of higher levels of education and greater skills means one is less likely to be unemployed. There are inequalities betweengenerations, as young people have been more affected than other age groups by the jobs crisis.

Those previously employed in craft and related areas, as plant and machine operators, constitute over one third of all those on the live register. Certain groups of people are more likely to have lower levels of education and are more at risk of becoming long-term unemployed. Many of those who were previously employed in construction and related industries are likely to fall into this category.

I will now move on to talk about potential sources of employment. The current unemployment crisis is primarily a demand side problem. The greatest barrier to work is the lack of jobs, and according to conservative estimates there are currently 26 jobseekers chasing each vacancy. Demand side solutions advocated by TASC include an investment strategy focused on social and economic infrastructure, such as schools, health centres, broadband, and transport links, designed to generate employment both directly and indirectly. Potential financing sources include the National Pension Reserve Fund, private pension funds and the European Investment Bank. TASC welcomes the efforts currently underway at a European level to increase the capacity of the European Investment Bank to part-finance investment in member states. The action plan for jobs has usefully brought together a wide range of actions under a variety of Departments, aimed at supporting job creation, but the plan does not include any significant new investment, which is necessary to support efforts to accelerate job creation.

The potential of social enterprise as a job generator should be harnessed to much greater effect. A social enterprise is a business which is engaged in trading activity in order to achieve social objectives, such as providing employment, services or creating income for community benefit. Social enterprises have proven to be a successful model of enterprise across a range of sectors including urban regeneration, energy efficiency, waste management, recycling, health and social care. In particular, social enterprise is well placed to provide access to the labour market for the long-term unemployed and those at risk of permanent exclusion from the labour market. However, social enterprise does not receive the same level of State support when compared with the mainstream enterprise sector. A number of practical measures could be put in place to create a more level playing field, examples of which include all Government finance schemes, such as the micro-finance and loan guarantee schemes, making explicit reference to social enterprises in the eligibility criteria; broadening the remit of county and city enterprise board programmes and supports to include social enterprises, as part of the planned re-organisation of local authorities and city and county enterprise boards; and an examination of the potential for social procurement in Ireland, and the inclusion of social public procurement as part of national public procurement policy, within the parameters EU procurement policy. The experience of other countries could be examined in this regard, including the national procurement strategy for local authoritiesin the UK, which includes social procurement provisions and guidelines to public bodies.

I would now like to speak about the labour market activation and the National Employment and Entitlements Service. While the unemployment crisis cannot be solved in the absence of measures that increase the demand for labour, there is a need for a range of supply-side labour market activation measures that are essential for keeping people close to the labour market, while also ensuring a skills match between the labour force and future jobs. The pathways to work scheme sets out to achieve much-needed reform in labour market activation measures across five strands. These relate to engagement with people who are unemployed; the targeting of activation places; incentivising the take-up of employment; incentivising employers to take on unemployed people; and the reform of institutions delivering the services. The schemedraws on international best practice, where increased levels of engagement with unemployed people is a central plank of active labour market policy. However, such an approach requires substantial and sustained investment, as well as institutional reform. Ireland's expenditure on active labour market measures is low compared to countries with highly developed employment services. These countries also have much lower levels of unemployment than Ireland. We have a lot of catching up to do in developing employment services that meet the diversity of needs of employers, jobseekers and the wider economy.

While many of the planned reforms should lead to improvements over time, the policy measures identified in pathways to work are unlikely to be sufficient to meet the sheer scale of the challenges facing us, in particular the challenge of addressing structural unemployment, where there is a complete mismatch between the skills of those looking for work and the skills required for the jobs that are available. Effective labour market activation measures must provide a full range of training and education options to reflect the diversity of needs among unemployed people; have close and productive links between education and employment services; develop good relationships with employers and act as a conduit between unemployed people and potential employers; fully utilise the capacity of local development companies in rural areas and urban based partnerships to provide outreach services to deprived communities where unemployment is more likely to be concentrated; improve the level of data gathering, analysis and evaluation to build the evidence base for high quality and effective labour market programmes, as a recent evaluation of the labour market activation fund found that there was no record of what happened to half of the 10,000 people who completed a training course; avoid perverse consequences, such as displacement in respect of internships and similar work placement initiatives, which can be achieved by having clear criteria as to what constitutes a work placement or internship and by engaging constructively with employers; and ensure that other areas of public policy do not undermine labour market activation measures, such as cuts to community child care schemes and increased fees for education and training courses that act as barriers to the progression paths on which people are encouraged to proceed. We also need to ensure employment service staff have the skills and capacities required to deliver a person-centred approach to service provision. For some staff, this will involve a transition from processing payments to acting as a caseworker for unemployed people and having up-to-date knowledge of the range of options open to each individual.

I would like to conclude by outlining TASC's recommendations on youth unemployment. Youth unemployment currently stands at 30.1%. Youth unemployment, and in particular long-term youth unemployment, has the potential to develop into structural unemployment, which I defined earlier. Young people that are neither in employment nor in education are of particular concern and they typically include young people who left school early to enter the labour force during the boom. This group is particularly vulnerable and requires significant support through labour market activation measures. Without such measures they are at risk of permanent detachment from the labour market.

TASC's recommendations on addressing youth unemployment include the following: the provision and expansion of high-quality education and training courses that meet the needs of young people who are unemployed as part of a clear progression path towards employment; ensuring that trainee and internship programmes include learning objectives and targets; work experience should be co-ordinated with local employers, including identification of struggling but viable businesses which would benefit from interns or trainees; sectoral policies aimed at promoting job creation in youth-friendly sectors such as tourism, catering, ICT and sports; and a feasibility study should be carried out to assess the potential of a youth job guarantee whereby local authorities or local development organisations would act as employers of last resort for young people unable to access appropriate education, training or employment. A number of countries in the EU have implemented youth job guarantees, so there is plenty of evidence available to examine how these have worked elsewhere. Other TASC recommendations include an assessment of the specific supports required by young people considering starting their up their own businesses. Such a programme could be piloted by local development bodies and urban partnerships in conjunction with the county and city enterprise boards. A young entrepreneur package could include reducing the waiting time for the back to work enterprise allowance, entrepreneurial training and measures to address issues relating to credit-worthiness through the provision of micro-finance.

Investment in jobs and in the labour force is crucial to Ireland's economic and social recovery. Thank you for your time and consideration.

Thank you, we appreciate that. I will now open up the discussion to questions. I call on Senator Quinn.

It is great to see how much is being done, but I would like to concentrate on the last two recommendations for an assessment of specific supports required by young people considering starting up their own businesses, and the young entrepreneur package. When Irish people went to the US in the past 100 years, they were willing to work and to start enterprises, even if they were very small enterprises. I get a sense that we have lost that here. I will give an example of what I mean. I am rather lazy and I do not like polishing my own shoes. I do it but I do not like it. When I go to Dublin Airport I usually have dirty shoes and I am attracted by the people who suggest that I should sit down because I have five minutes to spare and they will clean my shoes. None of these people is Irish. Everyone who invites me to do that seems to come from some other part of the world. In the United States someone offers to clean my shoes on almost every street and that is perfectly normal there. I highlight this because it seems to me that at some point we should remind people that it is not someone else's job to create one's own job. Perhaps one should do it oneself.

Some time ago I was in Drogheda and I spoke to two men who were unemployed. They said they wrote away seeking work six months previously and suggested there was not much more they could do. On my way home recently, I encountered two students - they were from Trinity College if I am not mistaken - who had bought a piece of equipment to clean cars. They were charging €40 for each clean. That afternoon they cleaned the cars of four people on my road. They set up that business themselves. We should instill in everyone a culture of not expecting someone else to make one's job and to consider among the options that one should do it one's self.

I had a lovely experience recently where a young man came in and asked if he could use my telephone. He explained that he had a gardening business and he wanted to check whether he could develop some more business. I overheard him making a call to someone and explaining that he had a grass cutting and hedge trimming business and asked whether the person would be interested in his services. It turned out that the woman at the other end of the telephone used someone else and was satisfied with that service. I put it to him that he did not do a good job selling himself. He explained that she was a good customer of his but that he wanted to establish whether she was pleased with his work. It struck me as a case of great innovation and we need more of that.

Everything Ms Pentony has raised is useful but I am attracted to the final two points she made. We should consider encouraging more people to set up their own businesses regardless of how small those businesses are and even if it is only a shoe polish business, grass cutting or cleaning cars. If we can instill a culture of starting up a business many jobs will be created not by someone else but by the individuals themselves. There are many success stories along these lines and when I hear of such stories of people who have created a job it seems to me that we should encourage more people to try it rather than expect the State or the county enterprise boards to do everything related to job creation.

As someone who has cut a lot of grass I can go along with that.

Ms Sinéad Pentony

I agree with Senator Quinn that we do not have the same strengths in terms of a culture of enterprise in this country. A great deal more could be done. It is not simply about finding a job that someone else has created. Enterprise should be presented as a viable option for people. A great deal can be done in terms of raising awareness of the options and providing supports for people to make the transition from welfare to self-employment. The back-to-enterprise allowance is a good scheme. It has been effective in supporting people and helping them to make the transition. A good deal more could be done at school level to support entrepreneurship. Many schools have various enterprise projects and that is where we should begin. The idea is to start when children are young and that is when one should instill the idea that people can create their own jobs. More generally, supports are provided and in this way more awareness is raised of self-employment and the supports available. Given the scale of the unemployment crisis, not enough has been done in terms of putting in place measures to include this in a suite of options for people in terms of moving from welfare to work or self-employment.

Senator Quinn is right. As some stage the level of desire to create our own jobs changed. Has any research been carried out which has monitored when attitudes to starting an enterprise changed or the attitudes to work in general? Has this area been examined in the past 20 or 30 years? Does it feed into what we are doing here? I imagine Ms Pentony is right but is there any proof?

Ms Sinéad Pentony

There is probably some research but I am not aware of anything off the top of my heard. There is a good deal of research into enterprise and the culture of entrepreneurship that could be examined in this regard.

Is it something TASC has done?

Ms Sinéad Pentony

No, it is not something we have examined in detail.

The TASC submission ran to 25 pages and it was probably one of the most thorough submissions I have read. It contained many excellent ideas. Let us get down to the nitty-gritty. The submission indicated that the unemployment problem is really due to the collapse in domestic demand. One of the TASC proposals is for greater capital investment in such as areas as broadband, water infrastructure, education and retrofitting buildings for better energy efficiency. We are doing these things already and investment is taking place. The Irish Water company will be set up, broadband is being rolled out throughout the country and an extensive schools building programme is being put in place whereby almost every school, bar a small minority, will move from prefabs to proper, full-scale buildings and that is as it should be. Does Ms Pentony believe we should have more investment more quickly in these infrastructure areas? If so, has any consideration been given to how much more investment we need and what job creation outcomes would result? Are there any case examples of the how much more we need to spend as part of a stimulus and what the net creation of jobs is likely to be?

Another section of the submission referred to the youth guarantee. I agree with the points made. I have referred several times to the need to investigate the possibility of running some sort of youth guarantee whereby the State or local authorities becomes the employer of last resort.

What is the effectiveness of the training and education we currently provide to people who are unemployed? I will provide a concrete example. We are still offering people European computer driving licence, ECDL, courses. That is not acceptable. ECDL has had its day at this stage. It is the equivalent of giving a person a sewing kit when there are so many other ways of doing things.

I understand 82,000 people are involved in job activation through various schemes, including the back-to-education initiative, JobBridge and Tús. Were we to implement some sort of youth guarantee scheme, how many extra training and education places would we need to provide to manage the skills mismatch? We should remember that most of the people making up the skills mismatch come from the construction sector. Some of the jobs becoming available at the moment are in information technology and finance and, therefore, those people are non-runners. What needs to be done to address this? We know work is being done but it should be examined surgically to determine how we can improve it.

Aside from the TASC proposals for investment how does the group believe we should re-train workers from the areas of the economy that have collapsed, especially the construction sector? There are some good examples. The Fasttrack to IT group has been before the committee already. It is run on the social enterprise model and is funded through FÁS. It deals with people who are long-term unemployed. It works on the demand side and meets companies such as Microsoft, Symantec, Accenture and so on. It assesses their demands and then develops courses to upskill people to meet this demand but people do not have to complete a full graduate programme running to three or four years. The venture has a 75% job replacement rate. That is one example of how to do it well but there are other examples in Waterford and so on. What else should we do to re-train workers? Surely, the answer is not to send everyone to college? We need a quick fix.

The TASC proposal is the most thorough so far. Will Ms Pentony comment on and provide some more concrete figures on capital investment?

Ms Sinéad Pentony

The investment figures are dependent on what is available. We have drawn on the work done for our pre-budget submission on using what is left in the National Pensions Reserve Fund. There are moves at European level to consider beefing up the capacity of the European Investment Bank and how some of the moneys in private pension funds can be accessed. We have been looking at figures of around €3 billion and €5 billion. We have looked at what scale of investment is required for job creation. The standard measure is 3% of GDP in order to create significant levels of job creation. I refer to a lagging indicator. While the economy will eventually pick up, it can take a long time for employment levels to increase after that. The figure of 3% GDP is considered to be the minimum but we do not have that kind of money to hand. However, we cannot do it on our own. We can use the National Pensions Reserve Fund but we must also consider piggy-backing on European initiatives. Our figures are in the range of €3 billion to €5 billion invested over two to three years.

The education and training is not fit for purpose. The ECDL courses-----

I do not wish to insult anyone who is taking those courses. It is an example of something which should be gone at this stage and it highlights that such courses are still in existence.

Ms Sinéad Pentony

Yes, this was highlighted also in the ESRI report on activation which concluded that the levels of education training provided are at a low level and they do not meet the needs of the diversity of people who are unemployed, for instance, people who do not have any formal qualifications and people with doctorates and masters. Reform is under way to make the education system fit for purpose and I refer to good measures such as conversion courses and Fast Track. However, these are just a drop in the ocean. Education and training is an essential component of addressing the unemployment crisis. While there are some good initiatives, they are not nearly on the scale that is required to address the crisis. This is the number one issue.

Other public policy measures are making it more difficult for people to access education training. I gave the example of cuts to community child care and increased fees for accessing VEC courses. While Pathways rightly identifies the need for education and training as a central plank for keeping people close to the labour market and equipping them with the skills they need for the jobs of the future, other policy initiatives are making it more difficult for people to do that and I gave the examples of the cuts to community child care and increased fees.

On the question about the youth guarantee, the model I examined was in the Netherlands which has been in place for a number of years. It provides both a job and also education and training to equip young people to do the job. I do not know if there is any formal evaluation of the scheme but it has been in place for a number of years and I would be surprised if it has not been evaluated. This model could be considered. However, the quality of the placement must be ensured - there is no point having a person stapling documents - so that people can gain experience and are provided with supports to develop the skills to do that job and which will hopefully be a stepping stone to full-time employment.

Ms Pentony mentioned the UK model of social procurement. Is this the proposed social clause?

Ms Sinéad Pentony

Yes. Guidelines were published recently in Northern Ireland on a similar scheme. The State is the largest consumer of privately provided goods and services so we need to look at our public procurement policy and access for small and medium enterprises. The policy provides social enterprises with a chance to apply to provide those services and products to the State.

Ms Pentony has stated the spend should be 3% of GDP. Is this an annual figure?

Ms Sinéad Pentony

Yes.

When all the expenditure on job creation is added up, it amounts to about €19 billion over the next three or four years, including the NAMA €2 billion. That is quite a spend for job creation in tough times. We need to ensure it is spent correctly. I call Senator Lawlor - I mean, Deputy Lawlor.

It is not my intention to become a Senator.

They might not want you in there, Deputy Lawlor.

Youth guarantee schemes are very popular throughout Europe. My worry is that young people may not access any education training. We must emphasise the necessity of education and training and that a job will come at the end of the training. It is most important that they receive some form of training. The Microenterprise Loan Fund Bill is in the Dáil at the moment. Could some of this fund be ring-fenced for young entrepreneurs? Has Ms Pentony any suggested amendments to the Bill which this committee could propose and which might secure finance for young entrepreneurs? I think the Bill should be linked in with the city and county enterprise boards because they have the infrastructure in place. Kildare has a very successful young entrepreneur scheme through the schools and it is an exceptionally good scheme and great young entrepreneurs have come up with some very brilliant and commercially viable ideas. I invite Ms Pentony to think about how we might be able to ring-fence finance for the under-25s. It is well known that most people who are starting up in business are often over 40 years of age. It would be good to get the younger people to start in business.

I think as a country we are losing out when there is not an emphasis on the traditional apprenticeships. Many people who have started their own business as a result of the economic downturn had been apprenticed as fitters or toolmakers. We are probably not investing sufficiently in engineering-type skills. Until such time as we start manufacturing and producing goods for export, we will never really crack the unemployment problems. New technologies and IT skills are very important but we should not lose sight of the traditional skills that have served the country well over the decades. This country needs to invest more significantly in providing people with engineering-type skills.

Ms Sinéad Pentony

On youth guarantees, in the Netherlands education and training are part of the job guarantee scheme. That is probably slightly different from the position in the United Kingdom. However, there is plenty of experience in the Netherlands which could be considered in the context of what seems to be working well. I agree that some ring-fencing should be provided for in respect of microfinance for young entrepreneurs. A young person setting up in business is far less likely to have a credit history and will, therefore, encounter difficulties. We could certainly examine the possibility of ring-fencing part of the microfinance fund for young entrepreneurs and take a creative approach in this regard..

While social enterprises are not explicitly referred to in many of the initiatives aimed at supporting the SME sector, there are variations in interpretation at local level as to whether they should be supported through the country enterprise boards, some of which do support these enterprises, while others do not. Those which do not support them are of the view that these enterprises do not come within their remit. Explicit reference must be made to social enterprises in the initiatives.

I agree with what was said about apprenticeships. The quality of apprenticeships in Ireland is very good. Unfortunately, we do not have a requirement in respect of developing the traditional type of skills. It would be useful to consider evolving apprenticeships in order that they might incorporate more engineering and industrial design elements. We must ensure our education and training system evolves to meet changing needs. As Deputy John Lyons stated, college is not for everybody. A diversity of skills is required and we must provide different types of courses in order to equip people with the skills needed in various sectors of the economy.

I wish to make a further comment and Ms Pentony may respond to it if she so wishes. I understand what Senator Michael Mullins is saying. There are examples of where we can improve in developing the skills of some members of the existing workforce in order that growth can be export-led. However, I am aware of anecdotal evidence which indicates that certain substantial multinational companies based here are refusing to bid to expand their hubs in Ireland because they know workers here do not have the necessary skills. I refer to companies which produce brands with which everyone would be familiar. It is startling that this is the case. The skills mismatch on the IT side must be quantified. Courses must be adapted and developed in order to meet needs. There is other anecdotal evidence which indicates that the companies to which I refer are embarrassed by the fact that, as a result of the skills deficit, they are being obliged to hire people from outside Ireland.

I formally flag a major concern in respect of the new agency, SOLAS. I accept that this falls within the remit of another Department, but it is intrinsically linked with what we are discussing, namely, the future skills match. Unless there is a significant demand-led aspect to what SOLAS is doing, we could end up with an agency which has a new name but which will be reasonably similar to that which preceded it. When SOLAS is put in place and we engage in a spring cleaning exercise, we should say goodbye to the ECDL and whatever else needs to be removed. If this is not done, we will not be in a position to entice multinationals and other companies to either establish new or expand existing operations here.

As public representatives, we will be obliged to seek re-election at some point in the future. Some may choose to do so, while others may not. However, I presume that most of us will seek to be re-elected. It is incumbent on us to ensure we will be able to call to people's houses and tell them what we did during our time in the Oireachtas. It would not be good enough for me or anyone else to knock on someone's door and state we had developed the Pathways to Work scheme and the action plan for jobs, that they were still being developed but that the relevant jobs had not been created. People want jobs to be created. As legislators, we must monitor all aspects of these new initiatives and schemes in order to ensure real change will occur. I accept that everyone has the best of intentions. However, we must ensure those intentions become a reality. Ultimately, what we want to do is create more jobs. There are ways by which this can be done, but we must be careful about how we proceed because we do not want to create something similar to that which is in place.

Will Ms Pentony indicate if we have missed out on any opportunities in the context of our policies or the areas into which we are directing money? Are there areas in which jobs could be created but to which no one has given consideration? Many of the presentations made to the committee on this topic indicate that virtually everyone is in agreement on certain areas in which action is required, namely, youth guarantees, training, the skills mismatch, etc. However, we have not really identified areas in which there might be opportunities to create jobs but which we have not considered. I ask Ms Pentony to comment on that matter. If she identifies such areas in her work in the coming period, perhaps she might make them known to us. Many of those who have come before us have stated the initiatives taken by the Government or which have been in operation for some time are good. However, they have also stated more of these are required or that additional funding is needed for those already in operation.

The committee decided last year to take up the cause in respect of social enterprise. This is because we believe sufficient focus is not being placed on social enterprise. We considered the Scottish model in this regard and came to the conclusion that the Scots seemed to be doing quite well in this regard. Ms Pentony referred to the social contracts in this area in the United Kingdom. We can make inroads in this matter and I am happy that the action plan for jobs contains a chapter on it. It states one of the aims this year is to agree a strategy and a plan on social enterprise. I would have preferred it if these had already been announced and put in place, but at least notice has been taken of social enterprise as an area in which something must be done. We need to exert pressure with regard to this matter and I am glad Ms Pentony raised it. We will certainly be recommending in our report that a focus should be placed on social enterprise and that investment be made in it. Social enterprise seems to have fallen through the cracks between a number of Departments during the years. Strong emphasis must be placed on it, particularly in the context of the massive job creation opportunities available.

We do not, as a society, appear to provide encouragement for young entrepreneurs and others who seek to establish their own businesses. This matter is touched on during transition year in secondary schools and the enterprise boards work with students to assist them in establishing their own little businesses. It is then almost ignored in fifth and sixth year because people are focusing on the leaving certificate. Society then encourages individuals to go on to college as a next step. When they emerge from third level, they are 22 or 23 years old and may have lost the initial impetus to establish a business.

It is not nurtured.

That is correct. We must do more to reassure people that it is fine to set up a business at 18 years of age and, perhaps, attend college on a part-time basis. That was the route I took. There are more opportunities now to pursue third level courses on a part-time basis or at night. We need to change people's perception that they must attend college on a full-time basis in order to enter society properly. There is nothing wrong with establishing and developing a business - even if it only involves cutting grass or trimming hedges - and pursuing a college course at the same time. However, we do not seem to be that way inclined. Perhaps we need to change the way we think.

Ms Sinéad Pentony

On education and training and as I stated, there are some good initiatives, but they are not nearly of the scale required. In general, there is a need for extensive reform, expansion of high quality education and training and clear and close linkages between employers, education and training providers and employment services. There must be a three-way partnership in this regard in order to ensure education and training providers are giving people the skills employers are seeking. I am aware of anecdotal evidence which indicates that companies cannot find the people they want in this country because they do not have the necessary skills. At the same time, 300,000 people are unemployed. There is certainly something wrong in this regard.

There is not much discussion of the national skills strategy nowadays. The target was that 500,000 people of working age should increase their qualifications level by one step. We are a long way from achieving this. Education and training are key in terms of investment in human capital which is essential for economic recovery. Of all the areas in which investment is required, that of education and training provides the best return. There are reams of evidence to support this view. While we are in a very difficult environment fiscally, education and training is one of the key solutions to the short-term crisis, long-term competitiveness and having a sustainable economy, but it needs reform, investment, expansion and that linkage.

In terms of new areas covered, the committee has met a wide range of people and I doubt if I could suggest key areas that people have not suggested already. We need to be creative about the types of enterprise models, and I was delighted to hear the members commitment to social enterprise because we under-utilise that hugely compared with other countries. At a European level there were policy moves recently to strengthen the focus on social enterprise. That is an area that could be examined. It is particularly important because social enterprises tend to be embedded in local communities. They are also more effective at creating job opportunities for people who are long-term unemployed and who are not necessarily a natural fit for the labour market for many reasons. They create the types of jobs that can help many people who are more distant from the labour market than others.

I thank Ms Pentony. We hope to have our report finished by September. We may revert to her before we complete it to check any data. If any new information comes to hand she can pass it on to the committee which will be very much appreciated. I thank the members also as it is a busy morning.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.05 a.m. until 11.30 a.m on Wednesday, 11 July 2012.
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