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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, ENTERPRISE AND INNOVATION díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 24 Jul 2012

Role and Functions: Discussion with Competition Authority

We are now resuming in public session. I wish to welcome Ms Isolde Goggin, chairperson of the Competition Authority, and her officials to the committee to discuss the role and remit of the authority. There will be a question and answer session after her presentation. I thank Ms Goggin for attending the committee and I am sorry we changed the time slightly. I hope that did not put her out.

Before we begin, I will read a note concerning privilege. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter but the witness continues to so do, the witness is entitled, thereafter, only to a qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. Witnesses are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Ms Isolde Goggin

I have been chairperson of the Competition Authority since last October. I am accompanied by Mr. Gerald FitzGerald, a member of the authority, Mr. Ciarán Quigley, secretary to the authority and who runs the corporate services division, and Dr. David McFadden, legal adviser to the authority. This is my first attendance before this committee since I assumed the position of chairperson and I thank the committee for its invitation. I hope this meeting will turn out to be a useful engagement.

The authority's mission is to ensure markets work well for consumers, business and the economy. Consumers are at the core of what we do. By consumers, I mean end-consumers and end-users, people who in their ordinary everyday lives buy groceries or petrol, for example. We also look at businesses as consumers, as well as the State which is an important consumer, particularly of professional services such as legal services. It is important for us that the State, as well as the individual, gets value for money.

Competition policy has come to the fore in recent years, partly because there is much more emphasis on competitiveness. As a small exporting nation, we need our country to be competitive as this translates directly into export jobs and higher living standards. Competitiveness is not just about costs but also relates to fostering innovation along with achieving sustainable improvements in living standards and job opportunities. Competition policy is particularly important in hard times when there may be a natural tendency towards protectionism. Given the strong evidence linking competition to productivity growth, however, it is important to ensure short-term solutions put in place today do not become tomorrow's problems. Competitiveness is important to all sectors of the economy. High prices in the non-tradable sectors such as professional services and many public services raise the cost of living and doing business.

The authority has undergone considerable change in the past two years. In the first half of 2010, the chairman resigned to become the Financial Services Ombudsman. Several members of the authority also resigned meaning the authority found itself without a quorum. Emergency legislation was, therefore, passed to permit the direct appointment of temporary members for terms of up to 12 months. Gerald FitzGerald and I came in for six months which was subsequently extended for another six months. Several senior staff, including Mr. Ciarán Quigley and Dr. David McFadden, were appointed as temporary members, pending the recruitment through open competition of new permanent members and a new chairperson in late 2011. They carried out that role in addition to their normal duties and deserve great recognition for that.

The authority consists of four members comprising myself, Mr. Patrick Kenny, Mr. Gerald FitzGerald and Mr. Stephen Calkins. We have a staff of 39 comprising members, economists, lawyers, specialist investigators and administrative staff. Like all parts of the public service, we have had to cope with cutbacks in staff and resources. We have been able to do more with less and we are looking to a slight increase in our staff in the future. Our strategy statement outlines our new approach to project selection, prioritisation and the timely completion of projects. We are also working closely with our colleagues in the National Consumer Agency to ensure our planned amalgamation is a success.

We have two roles, that of enforcement and advocacy. Advocacy is promoting competition in the economy. We promote competition in many different ways such as the publication of reports on the competitiveness of certain market sectors, such as lawyers, architects, engineers and so on, through advice to Departments and other State agencies on competition issues relevant to their work and the promotion of a competition culture to the wider community through the publication of guidelines and interaction with business organisations. This is all very well on its own but it needs enforcement. We need to protect competition by taking effective action to deter anti-competitive conduct. A large part of our role is the investigation of anti-competitive practices such as price-fixing or abusive conduct by firms dominant in a particular market. We also review mergers above certain financial thresholds to ensure they do not substantially reduce competition and harm consumers. If it is of a multinational nature and above a different threshold, it will be sent to the EU.

Anti-competitive practices can take many forms ranging from hard-core offences such as price-fixing and bid-rigging to other forms of behaviour that constitute abuse of market power. The Competition Act gives us the power to investigate breaches of competition law, following a complaint or on our own initiative. It also gives us specific powers of investigation which include the power to enter and search premises and homes with a search warrant issued by the District Court, the power to seize documents and records, the power to summon witnesses and to require information from third parties. We are a little different to our European counterparts which are administrative bodies and which allows them to decide if a firm has infringed the law and to impose fines. In Ireland, only a court can decide that competition law has been broken and impose penalties. Prosecutions are usually taken by the Director of Public Prosecutions following an investigation carried out by the authority and the courts decide whether a company is guilty or not. The authority can bring summary prosecutions in non-criminal cases to the District Court in our own right. Due to the higher criminal standard of proof beyond reasonable doubt and that these cases are prosecuted on indictment, it takes time to investigate and prosecute a hard-core cartel case.

The authority has established a serious track record of criminal enforcement for anti-competitive behaviour. Earlier this year, a conviction was secured in a jury trial where an individual was fined €30,000 and sentenced to two years in prison, suspended for two years, for his role in a cartel that sought to fix the price of heating oil in the west. In total, the home heating oil case has led to 18 convictions on indictment with fines totalling €149,500 and two individuals given custodial, but suspended, sentences of six months and two years, respectively. In another case involving the fixing of the price of cars, 15 convictions have been secured on indictment resulting in fines, various prison sentences and one individual sentenced to 28 days in prison for not paying his fine.

In other less serious cases, where we think competition law has been broken, we will bring a civil case before the courts. Sometimes, we are able to get businesses to change their behaviour without necessitating an expensive court case. For example, following an investigation of a scheme used by RTE to sell airtime to advertisers, the station agreed last year to change the scheme so as to address the authority's concerns that it may have involved the abuse of a dominant position by RTE by virtue of its effect on competing broadcasters. The broadcaster did this through legal commitments which took effect in July 2012. In January 2011, the authority reached a settlement in its long-running proceedings against Beef Industry Development Society Limited. Certain parties in the beef industry were paying their competitors to go away. This settlement was reached following a European Court of Justice judgment.

The Competition Act 2002 provides for a system whereby mergers above certain turnover thresholds must be reviewed by the authority. This is one of the few areas where the authority determines itself. This is done in a public and transparent way. We invite submissions from the public on a possible merger. All cases are published and are available to download from our website. With the financial difficulties of the banks in recent years, the Minister for Finance has a certain role in bank mergers. The Minister may request advice, information and assistance from the authority which happened in the case of the merger of AIB and EBS.

The benefits of competition for consumers can be seen in sectors such as telecoms, airlines and energy markets where monopolies existed previously. We have carried out formal study exercises with detailed market studies in the professions, banking, insurance, private health insurance and the grocery sector. As part of the action plan on jobs, on foot of direction from the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, we began a study into the ports sector in Ireland. It will be an interesting study because I mentioned the importance of exports and, by volume, much of our exports go through the ports. We must ensure they are working as well as they could be for the economy as a whole.

I referred to the banking sector. Given where we find ourselves since 2008, competition in the banking sector has had to take second place to financial stability. We have moved towards a two pillar banking system, but the Competition Authority has been involved in promoting the long-term benefits of a competitive and well-regulated banking sector. The EU-IMF programme has put a considerable amount of money into the banks to restructure them but, as part of the programme agreed between the troika and the Irish authorities, Ireland has committed to a number of measures to restore competition and improve consumer protection by making it easier for people to switch and by ensuring new entrants to the banking sector, if they come along, are able to gain access to the system and compete effectively.

We participate in a steering group, comprising representatives from the Department of Finance, the Central Bank and the National Consumer Agency, which reports annually on the progress in implementing these measures. When the memorandum of understanding was agreed with the troika, there were measures about structural reform as conditions of financial assistance. Some of them related to previous recommendations of the Competition Authority, particularly in respect of the legal profession and the medical profession. Amendments have been made to the Competition Act, which passed through the Houses of the Oireachtas recently, and these are welcome in terms of strengthening the enforcement power, increasing the penalties for competition offences, giving the Competition Authority the power to enforce more effectively undertakings given by companies, and also giving consideration to the resourcing of the Competition Authority. We are working closely with our parent Department on that point.

The strategy statement on our website covers the period 2012 to 2014. With a wide range of activities across the economy, like every other public sector organisation we are doing the best we can with the resources we have. There is always more we would like to do but we hope we now have the structures in place to meet our statutory role and to continue to deliver benefits for consumers and the economy. I thank the committee for inviting us and we are happy to try to answer members' questions.

We are pleased to have the Competition Authority representatives before the committee. Ms Goggin's predecessor was a regular visitor while I was a member of the precursor to this committee. Today's invitation was issued on foot of the request from Deputy Kyne. I invite him to lead questions.

I welcome the representatives of the Competition Authority. In 2004, the then head of the Competition Authority stated that anti-competitive practices were costing the Irish economy approximately €4 billion annually. Is there a comparable figure for 2012? My interest in the area goes back a long time. Almost 20 years ago, when I was 15 or 16 years of age, my uncle sold cattle at a mart. The cattle were in a pen and a group of dealers were around the pen. They did not know who I was and they started pointing out which heifers were theirs. Effectively, they had them bought before the cattle went into the sales ring. I wondered what was the point of us rearing the animals from birth to the stage where we sold them when I saw people doing that. It was a small example of what occurs throughout this country and across the world.

I requested that the representatives of the Competition Authority appear before the committee in light of the Bill that has now been passed. Has the ability of the Competition Authority to tackle anti-competitive practices been strengthened by the Competition (Amendment) Bill 2012? The Chairman referred to extra staff, which is welcome. Has the ability of the Competition Authority to investigate anti-competitive practices been hampered by a lack of funding and staff? In 2000, the director of competition enforcement resigned, stating that the resources available to him were wholly inadequate to obtain evidence of secret conspiracies to overcharge consumers. He was convinced that price-fixing cartels represented a serious and widespread problem in this country. What is the view of Ms Goggin in terms of the existence of these price-fixing cartels?

In 2010, the then chairman stated that the Competition Authority would probably have to suspend a number of enforcement investigations because of a lack of funds. What investigations were suspended? Do the witnesses believe there are ramifications in respect of the two pillar banks and competition? How can we ensure consumers do not suffer? What are the concerns of the Competition Authority with regard to the banks?

Who should a person with information contact in the Competition Authority? Is there a section or is there more than one individual to contact? I hope there is more than one individual if someone comes forward with information. Who ascertains whether there is a case to be answered or whether the matter should proceed? Is it discussed and brought before a committee? What involvement do the directors have?

The witnesses referred to being relatively new, which is unfortunate for this question. Has there ever been political or ministerial interference in a decision of the Competition Authority to proceed with an investigation? The 2011 annual report refers to two of the cases under investigation being reported in the media. These concern allegations of anti-competitive activities, one of which was in the concrete and cement industry. Is that investigation ongoing and can the witnesses comment on it? I may have further questions at the end.

Ms Isolde Goggin

That is a great start. It is difficult to assess the loss to the economy from anti-competitive practices because, by their nature, they are covert and under the radar. The general rule of thumb has been that the existence of a cartel increases prices in the industry by 10%. More recently, the Office of Fair Trading in the UK and the Federal Trade Commission in the US have carried out more work on this and increased the estimate to 15% to 20%. We used to think the home heating oil situation was costing consumers €4 million for every year it continued. That concerns one regional area and we can extrapolate from that to say that the amount is substantial. It is not that we must catch every cartel in existence. If custodial sentences are imposed, that sends a strong message that such conduct is unacceptable. An ounce of deterrence is worth a lot of talking about it. It is to be hoped the fact that the cases were taken to court and reported will deter other people who may have been tempted to get involved in anti-competitive practices while times are hard. It is a similar situation with cars.

Deputy Kyne referred to a matter that arose in 2000. I am a serial joiner and leaver of the Competition Authority because I was there from 1996 to 2002, from 2010 to 2011, and then I came back at the end of last year. I was around for some of the case and at the time there were serious difficulties with regard to staffing. When the Competition Authority was first given enforcement powers in 1996, we were allowed to recruit a number of economists and lawyers. They were all on three-year contracts and a number of them left. Subsequent to that, after the staffing crisis, the matter was taken seriously. The staff cohort of the Competition Authority was increased substantially and a number of case officers, lawyers, investigators and managers joined.

I have never come under pressure to investigate or not investigate something. People pass on the concerns of their constituents but we have never been pressured through the political system to take particular actions. There is a system whereby the Minister can direct us to carry out a study but that is all completely transparent. It is what happened with the ports, which are a good sector to look at.

Will banking consumers suffer? The banking sector is in such difficulties that it is difficult to say whether consumers are suffering from a lack of competition or a lack of funds and there being no money to lend, especially to small businesses. There was no point saying we had to preserve four or five banks at all costs if the funds did not exist to keep them going. We have had a lot of discussions with the Department of Finance about this, and it has said there must be at least two sustainable banks. Our approach is that financial stability must trump competition in the current situation, but we should try to insert conditions to say that if and when conditions improve, if new entrants try to come into the market, they would be able to pick up access to clearing systems and ATMs.

We have a system for handling complaints that would include our general e-mails and contact numbers. These then progress to a screening file because sometimes issues are sent to us that are outside our remit. If we are to use our enforcement powers, the matter would then progress to a complaint file. We have a cartel immunity programme whereby someone who thinks he might have participated in a cartel or something that could lead to it can come to us anonymously and securely. He can talk to someone not involved in investigating or can come to us through a lawyer. All information is received in absolute anonymity and confidentiality is protected.

There are ongoing investigations into the concrete and cement industry. Normally we do not even comment on investigations that are under way but this has been reported in the press. There has been a number of such investigations over the years. We do not have enforcement powers related to anything that happened before 1996 because that was when the post of director of competition enforcement was created and the authority was granted enforcement powers. Previous to that there were rights of private action, where an individual who was aggrieved could take an action, but our powers only kicked in from 1996. Given we have a criminal system of investigation and enforcement, we must secure evidence that will stand up in court, which means sworn witness statements and evidence that will be accepted beyond reasonable doubt as proving an infringement. Issues are ongoing in the sector and we will continue to investigate them, although I cannot say any more than that.

I know it is only the 2011 report, but e-mails to the Irish Small Business Alliance in March 2012 state the Competition Authority is of the view there are insufficient grounds to initiate a criminal investigation into the cement and concrete industry at this time.

Ms Isolde Goggin

There are several different investigations.

It was said there were insufficient grounds for a criminal investigation so what sort of investigation is under way?

Ms Isolde Goggin

There is a potential abuse of dominance issue arising. That might be related to one specific complaint. We would deal with complainants individually so there may be others from others in the sector. The resolution of one complaint does not mean the whole sector is closed off.

The e-mail concerns an investigation into the cement and concrete industry. If I have a complaint about a cartel, is there someone I can contact? If I contact an individual and he feels there is no issue, what happens then?

Ms Isolde Goggin

The contact for the cartel immunity system is on the website. There is a particular phone number for an individual in the organisation.

Does one person deal with that or is there a group of people?

Mr. Ciarán Quigley

As it happens, I am the designated officer when it comes to cartel immunity. We have a dedicated mobile telephone that I carry most of the time. If I am not in, someone else will have it. Someone can approach me, directly or through a lawyer, and say he has been involved in a cartel. The programme is a joint programme with the Director of Public Prosecutions so we cannot grant immunity from prosecution to anyone. All we can do is recommend to the DPP that she grant immunity in a particular case if the person meets the qualifying criteria set out in the programme. We always advise people when they phone, particularly if they are individual lay people rather than lawyers, to get legal advice on immunity before coming to us because effectively they are admitting to having been engaged in a criminal breach of competition law, which has serious consequences if they were to be caught outside the immunity programme.

If the DPP accepts an applicant under the programme, the applicant must then disclose absolutely everything to us he or she knows about the cartel, such as documentation, when meetings were held, who else was involved, the duration and so on. We will investigate the alleged cartel and in return for him or her giving evidence on behalf of the State and the DPP in any subsequent criminal trial, the DPP guarantees that she will not initiate criminal proceedings against that person. That is how the programme works. There is a wider programme within the EU and most countries have immunity or leniency programmes like ours. In recent years there has been an upsurge in the number of applications made to us under the cartel immunity programme, which we put down to the fact that since 2006, we have secured more than 30 criminal prosecutions. People see they can get caught and know the consequences.

What is Mr. Quigley's background? How long has he been on the board and what was his previous experience?

Mr. Ciarán Quigley

I have been in the Competition Authority since 1998. I am a career civil servant. I have been in the Civil Service since the late 1970s and I have been in the Competition Authority since 1998. My colleague, Dr. David McFadden, and some others came up with the cartel immunity programme but I have been the designated officer since the programme came into being in December 2000.

Going back into the area of cement and concrete, controversies in the sector go back to the 1980s when it was investigated on "Today Tonight". Is it a surprise that no Minister has asked for an investigation given he has the power to ask for an investigation under the Act when this sector has been so controversial?

Ms Isolde Goggin

A number of private court cases have taken place at the same time. It is difficult for a Minister to order an investigation when litigation is under way or investigations are ongoing. Also, some of this goes back to the 1980s, a time before the passing of the 1996 Act and the establishment of powers of enforcement. The areas in which Ministers have asked the authority to carry out market reviews include ports, casual trading and mobile phone masts. The authority is generally asked to review areas in which competition is not necessarily working very well for consumers. In some cases, the way in which the law is being breached is not obvious. The use of a ministerial direction to undertake a market study usually applies to areas in which the issue at stake is not particularly obvious. It might be a little more difficult to get to the core of the issue. In the case of the ports, people were not saying there was an obvious or significant issue. It was a case of raising the question rather than issuing a direction. We were asked to find out what was going on. We decided to examine how the ports compete and interact with each other. We looked at whether there is more competition between Dublin Port and Cork Port, for example. We considered whether the issue arises among terminals within ports. I would not be surprised that ministerial directions are not being used in an area which is the subject of ongoing litigation or investigation. Such directions are usually aimed at something that is a little more indirect.

When the authority is considering carrying out an investigation in any area, does the matter have to go to the board for approval? Is it done internally? If a conflict of interest arises - a member of the board might have had a former association with a company - I presume the person in question would absent himself or herself from any decision.

Ms Isolde Goggin

Absolutely. In terms of corporate governance, we have a code of conduct for the members of the Competition Authority and its staff. Anyone who has any kind of conflict of interest will absent himself or herself. Any decision on whether to take an investigative action, such as a search, is considered by the full authority.

How many members does that consist of?

Ms Isolde Goggin

It consists of four members.

Before I call Deputy Calleary, I would like some clarity about the hotline. Do many of those who call the hotline subsequently decide not to follow through on what they have said, perhaps due to the need for and cost of legal advice?

Mr. Ciarán Quigley

Some of those who call decide not to pursue the matters they have raised when they realise they will have to give evidence in court from the witness box against their former conspirators. That is what puts people off. The cost is not as significant a factor. We used to think a reluctance to engage in whistleblowing was a particularly Irish thing, but in fact the same experience has been noted across Europe.

I call Deputy Calleary. It is good to have him back.

I thank the Chairman. Ms Goggin mentioned the authority's "serious track record" and said she is happy that it compares to the European average. Reference has been made to the home heating oil and car fixing cases. I think they go back a few years at this stage. The authority had seven active investigations under way at the end of 2011. Can Ms Goggin outline where they are now? Has the authority had any successes, apart from the home heating oil and car investigations, in the intervening period? How many people are participating in the cartel immunity programme at present? How many people have done so since 2000? How many cases have been brought, successfully or unsuccessfully, as a result of this programme? Ms Goggin spoke about the work the authority has done in the grocery sector. Is she happy that we have competition in this sector? What would she define as "sufficient" or "fair" competition in the grocery sector at the moment?

I am concerned that the authority seems to be a little relaxed about the need for competition in banking. We accept there is a need for financial stability. The authority should be banging on the door of the Department of Finance to ensure the two pillar banks are trying to knock each other a bit out of shape, particularly with regard to small business. Nobody is doing that, however. Everybody appreciates that small businesses are not getting a break from the banking sector at the moment. The badly needed recovery will not happen until the authority fulfils its advocacy role, as mentioned by Ms Goggin, and hammers home the point that nobody is providing this service. There needs to be competition between the pillar banks and among the banks that are not in there at the moment.

Ms Goggin spoke about the closed shop in the legal and medical professions. Has she had any interaction with the Minister for Justice and Equality in the last six months on the redrafting of the Legal Services Regulation Bill 2011? The Minister has committed to the re-publication of the Bill some time in the next few weeks. Can Ms Goggin confirm that investigations into the cement and concrete industry are still under way, as she said in response to Deputy Kyne? The e-mail that was mentioned states clearly that there are insufficient grounds to initiate a criminal investigation into the cement and concrete industry. It does not refer to any other cases or complaints. If there are insufficient grounds for further investigation, can Ms Goggin explain why that is the case? Perhaps she can do so in private session to enable us to make a call on the matter. Is any body so big that the Competition Authority does not have the resources to go after it, or is afraid to do so for some reason?

Ms Isolde Goggin

My understanding is that we have six active investigations at the moment. Some of the home heating oil cases were some time ago. The most recent prosecution in the home heating oil cartel was in May of this year. There is no doubt that these things can go on for a long time. We have to take the time that is required to investigate a case. It would not be unusual in Europe for a cartel investigation to take two years internally in the organisation. It then has to be referred to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. The case in question was appealed to the Supreme Court on a point of law. It went from the High Court to the Supreme Court and back down again. It can take a long time for the initial complaint to be progressed to the very end of the legal process. A file relating to a number of companies has been with the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions for some time. We have engaged in discussions with the office on how it wants to proceed. There is a sort of pipeline in these cases. Some cases have been completed, some are in the legal system, some are with the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and some are under active investigation while we use our search powers. We have carried out nine searches so far this year. The level of activity has increased significantly compared with the years immediately previous, when a bit of this turmoil was going on.

How many people have engaged in the cartel immunity programme?

Mr. Ciarán Quigley

Approximately 20 applications have been received since December 2001, when the programme was introduced. There are approximately five active applicants at the moment. There was an immunity applicant in the home heating oil case. Unfortunately, one of the individuals who received immunity in that case died before the first trial started. The two immunity applicants in the Citroën case were not needed to give evidence in court. I assume people decided to plead guilty on the basis of the book of evidence, rather than going to full trial. It was evident from the book of evidence that there was an immunity applicant. The identity of the applicant would have been made known in the book of evidence. I understand that five or six immunity applications are active at the moment. It is not necessarily the case that they will all proceed to criminal trial. The Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions might well decide not to press criminal charges. It is entirely in the hands of that office.

Deputy Calleary asked whether anybody is too big for us to investigate. As we are all aware, the European Commission imposes massive fines on large international companies in respect of cartel activity on a fairly regular basis. It is worth noting that in recent times, most if not all of those cases have emerged from whistleblowing applications to the European Commission. There is no doubt that immunity programmes work. As we are responsible for the criminal regime - I will not describe that as an unfortunate position - we have to bring these cases right through the criminal process, which takes time. I take the Deputy's point that the Citroën and home heating oil cases occurred some years ago. In the latter case, the last conviction was almost on the anniversary of the searches that we carried out. We were involved in approximately 11 District Court areas. We must abide by the rules and the law when investigating and prosecuting. These actions take time. It is not a question of a delay on our part. Rather, it is the process. The home heating oil case began with 24 defendants. The original plan was to try them together, but there was not a courthouse big enough for the 24 defendants and their legal representatives. For this reason, the prosecution was divided into stages.

I have outlined the position on the immunity applications.

Ms Isolde Goggin

I will revert to the groceries issue and the Deputy's query as to whether we are satisfied that there is sufficient and fair competition. The system must be kept dynamic. There was sufficient competition five years ago, but people's buying habits have changed significantly in that time. In 2007, there was much less focus on value for money and cost and a greater level of discretionary spending on the so-called fancy stuff. It is difficult to see how the likes of Aldi and Lidl would have done so well had that situation continued. They now have approximately 12% of the market between them.

The most important issue is to ensure that the system remains flexible enough so that people can enter the market with new formats and ways of selling, including direct selling by farmers and producers. Consider the growth in farmers markets and people going straight to the consumers and bypassing systems that made getting their products onto shelves difficult.

We have found coming to grips with the issue of fair competition difficult and there is a great deal of European concern about the balance in the supply chain. The programme for Government committed to new competition and consumer legislation to merge the Competition Authority with the National Consumer Agency, NCA, and to update competition and consumer law. It will have an enabling provision for the introduction of a statutory code of practice in the groceries sector. Yet again, this reverts to the issue of whether people are willing to give evidence. Small suppliers are concerned about the threat of being delisted. Current legislation places certain prohibitions on "hello" money and so on, but we have found bringing someone to the point of giving evidence difficult. There is an imbalance.

I did not mean to convey the impression that we were too relaxed about the banking issue. We did not believe that there was any point in saying that there needed to be four or five banks when that number was clearly unsustainable, but we will try to maintain pressure on the Department of Finance to ensure that the remaining banks act as if they were in a more competitive environment and to facilitate the entry of other banks into the market relatively easily and quickly. The industry is in difficulty, but we must plan for three or five years down the road.

Mr. Quigley mentioned immunity programmes, which have tended to start slowly in this and other jurisdictions. They ramp up once word gets around. No one is too big to be caught by ourselves or the European system.

On legal services-----

Before Deputy Calleary responds, with the agreement of members I will suggest that Deputy Conaghan take the Chair. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Michael Conaghan took the Chair.

Will Ms Goggin refer to the Legal Services Regulation Bill 2012 and confirm the situation in respect of the concrete and cement industry?

Ms Isolde Goggin

We have interacted with the Department of Justice and Equality regarding the Bill. One of my colleagues attended the same conference as the Minister and spoke to him. Before Christmas, I spoke at a conference at UCD and raised some of the issues around ensuring the independence of the Legal Services Regulatory Authority and so on. We published those points on our website and raised them elsewhere. We have suggested tweaks to the Bill to ensure that the independence of the profession continues to be respected.

I do not know which e-mail the Deputy is reading, but we have received a number of complaints. That we would close one company does not necessarily mean that we would close everything. We will consider the civil versus criminal route and will examine any additional evidence presented to us.

I welcome the Competition Authority's work in combating anti-competitive practices, price fixing and the abusive conduct of firms that are in powerful positions in particular markets. The authority is part of an official steering group to review and report on measures to improve competition among the banks. In this regard, what bank practices is the authority most concerned about?

The authority is due to merge with the NCA. What are the benefits sought from this merger and what is the timeline for an effective amalgamation?

Ms Isolde Goggin

One of our reports on banking sector competition focused on current accounts and loans to small businesses. That report examined the banks from the point of view of consumers' experiences, not in terms of prudential regulation, which is a matter for the Financial Regulator and the Department of Finance. For example, we considered ease of switching of current accounts, not the availability of wholesale finance. That situation has changed significantly since we reported several years ago. We examined whether codes of practice were in place to ensure that direct debits did not drop out and a person's credit rating was not lost when he or she switched current accounts simply because of a fault in the banks, something of which there has been experience in recent months. Nothing else springs to mind.

There is a crisis, in that there is no cash available for small and medium-sized enterprises, SMEs. The Minister for Finance is listening to the banks and the Department, but not to business people.

Ms Isolde Goggin

I agree, but I am unsure as to what extent competition between the banks could remedy the problem of the availability of funds. If one bank was not making money available and the others were, people could be encouraged to go to the banks that were lending. It may be a more widespread funding problem. We hoped that the crisis would ease after a while and that some banks that left the market a few years ago would re-enter it with sources of funding that were not available to the Irish banks.

As members know better than me, getting legislation through the Houses can prove difficult. The Department hopes to publish the amalgamating legislation by the end of this year. There are many synergies between competition and consumer agencies. Many countries have put them together from the beginning. For example, the Office of Fair Trading, OFT, and the Federal Trade Commission, FTC, are amalgamated agencies. Across Europe, such agencies are increasingly being amalgamated.

The stereotype is that competition agencies view competition as the be all and end all. Since a competitive market supposedly removes all problems for consumers, they wonder why people complain when they could avail of that competition. However, as people have examined firms' behaviour further, it has become clear that a great deal of confusion can be created even in a notionally competitive market. Firms' strategic behaviour can make comparing tariffs difficult, tie people into long-term contracts that make switching more difficult and conduct confusing advertising that leads people to believe that they are getting great deals when the opposite is the case. There is much more interest now in behavioural economics, in looking at the ways in which consumers behave in real life and how firms behave to exploit the biases we all have. For example, we all love a bargain and we all love to save a bit of money now rather than more money in the future. Consumer agencies can do significant good by educating and informing consumers and bringing them along so that if there is competition in the market, they will know how to avail of it rather than be exploited. Our advocacy function and that of the National Consumer Agency, NCA, is of significant benefit and we work together closely and interact on issues. For example, the NCA has done a lot of work on price transparency in the professions and on encouraging the display of prices so that people can compare what is available. We are also working together with regard to the new system for water regulation and are talking to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government so that we can present our joint view. Therefore, there are huge benefits on the timeline and advocacy front and the plan is to have the legislation published by the end of this year.

Like others, I welcome the fact that Ms Goggin has stated clearly there is a current, ongoing investigation into the cement industry. My first question concerns the amalgamation. Has the Competition Authority had much contact with the NCA on this and what proposals have been made with regard to the way forward for the new body? Will the amalgamation mean a loss of jobs? It is strange that when we have amalgamations within State organisations, jobs are not lost whereas they are in the case of the private sector. Obviously, both bodies have a CEO. Will the new body have just one CEO or will we have two CEOs on the extremely high salaries being paid currently?

The Competition Authority currently has 39 staff and is now taking on extra staff. Will the increase in staff reduce the length of time it takes to move from acquiring information on a cartel, for example, to the time it is brought to prosecution or resolution? Ms Goggin mentioned that the system in Europe works much more quickly than our system because we have to go through a legal process. Would she advocate changing the system here along the lines of systems in other European countries? Does the Competition Authority look at judgments and rulings made on issues in other countries that could have a bearing on certain industrial sectors here and does it take action as a result?

Ms Isolde Goggin

With regard to the amalgamation, we have done significant work with the NCA. We have set up a project with one of the NCA staff - a person on secondment from the Office of the Financial Regulator - as project manager. Representatives from the Competition Authority and the NCA are on the project team and we also have working groups working on different aspects, such as legislation, IT, the building and facilities, enforcement and so on.

Are some of these people from outside the agencies?

Ms Isolde Goggin

No, they are all in-house. We have no money for paying outside project managers. The people involved are working on this in addition to their daily work. With regard to the long-term structure, the Minister decided the board would be a collegiate body with a chairperson and members rather than an external board. However, the issue of who will chair the board and who will be on it has yet to be decided. We will wait for the publication of the legislation before making that kind of decision.

With regard to the additional staff, I do not see their recruitment reducing the length of time it takes to do an investigation. Rather, we will be able to do more investigations. Many of the issues relating to the time taken for investigations arise from procedures, such as getting search warrants and the need for forensic analysis of the information captured from computers, laptops and servers and so on. That work must be done anyway. The system in Europe is quicker because there is no court stage, but we would not advocate that entirely. In some areas we would prefer that the burden of proof was not quite at the criminal level. However, it must be recognised that our system, where we go to court and the judge decides, is very fair. An issue has arisen a lot with regard to European competition law lately because the Lisbon treaty brought the Charter of Fundamental Rights into European law. People are looking at the system and saying that the European Commission or the competition agency in some European country is judge, jury and executioner as they are investigating the issue, making the decision and imposing the fine. Some people now believe that does not respect the rights of the defendant and there have been a couple of court cases in this regard and it has had to be made clear there are Chinese walls in-house and that the people doing the investigation are not the same people who are taking the decision on whether there has been an infringement. Our system may have its downsides, but it is very respectful of natural justice and is ahead of European systems in some ways.

We do look at judgments and rulings in other countries. However, it must be borne in mind that it is really the court that makes the decisions here and it is the court, not us, that must abide by precedent. Many of the judgments of the European Court of Justice came in directly as precedent into our law. The courts implement our national Competition Act, but they also implement Articles 101 and 102 of the EC treaty, which are the European competition rules and are directly applicable in Ireland. If a judge is looking at an issue in a competition case, he can look at it as a matter of Irish law or, once it has a European dimension, as a matter of EU law. Therefore, other judgments and precedents are taken into account.

May I speak on this?

I have a list of speakers and will follow the order: Senator Mullins, Deputy Kyne and Deputy Calleary.

I welcome our visitors. With regard to the case concerning home heating oil, everybody was happy there were some convictions. However, the people who were ripped off had no recourse and got no justice. Is there any recourse to compensation for customers overcharged in that sort of situation? Can we be satisfied now that such cartels are no longer in operation? How does one define a cartel? If there are four filling stations in a town and they all charge the same price for petrol, would they be considered a cartel?

The Competition Authority's remit is to investigate any abuse of dominant positions. I have no doubt there is significant abuse by large multiples, which, as mentioned, affects small producers. Last Christmas, I heard of a case where a small producer was forced to provide stock to fill shelves in the run up to Christmas, but very little of that stock was sold and he had to remove all the goods and as a result was not paid and suffered a significant loss. If he made too much of a complaint, he would be delisted. The Competition Authority's remit is on the side of the consumer, but we should also protect smaller businesses from larger multiples and multinationals. There is evidence that the large multiples are forcing the smaller players out of business by selling at a much lower cost than the price those smaller businesses pay when buying direct from the producer, which supplies both types of business. Much work must be done. The below cost selling of alcohol by the multiples is subsidising other items within the stores, providing an unfair advantage and doing much damage to the smaller shops and the pub trade. This is a grey area and I wonder if it comes under the remit of the Competition Authority.

Is there a register of interests for members of the Competition Authority? For example, would it be normal practice for members to declare that they had shares in a company?

In the mid 1990s, the EU fined an Irish company for being part of a European price fixing cartel, yet I understand there has never been an investigation into the stream of allegations about price fixing in this jurisdiction in the concrete and cement industry. This is why I am harping on about the issue. There was a building boom in Ireland over the last decade and more, and people who paid over the odds for houses have been affected. If cartels were operating in this country in that period, that would have had serious consequences on what people had to pay. The EU fined Irish companies for being part of price-fixing cartels, and that concerns me.

Deputy Lawlor asked a question about the authority reviewing cases in other European jurisdictions. My interest is not so much in points of law, but in the different sectors. Does it set alarm bells ringing that cases of anti-competitive behaviour were found in particular sectors? I agree with Deputy Kyne's concerns about the concrete and cement industry. I do not think there is enough urgency in that area. As we review what happened in this country over the last few years, that is one area that needs to be examined.

Ms Isolde Goggin

I might ask Dr. McFadden to respond to Senator Mullins's point about compensation. It is an issue we have thought about quite a lot in terms of individual consumers and classes of consumers.

Dr. David McFadden

This issue is a huge undertaking at the moment in the European Commission, while it is also ongoing in the UK. In current competition cases, the European Commission is looking at the possibility of consumers who suffer small losses getting redress. The Law Reform Commission examined the issue in 2003 and issued a report in 2005 recommending reform. The Competition Authority participated in the debate on collective redress. For example, we made submissions to the European Commission Green Paper on the issue in 2005. We made a much more substantial submission in a new round of consultation undertaken by the European Commission towards a coherent collective redress.

The heating oil cartel occurred in just one county, namely, Galway. For one product in one period of nine months, we estimated that the overcharge - the actual theft - was for a sum of £4.4 million. Each householder who bought 1,000 litres of oil - they would not have access to gas and most likely were using oil to heat their homes - was probably being overcharged by £50 or £60 at the time. After we took our action, any individual who wanted to sue at the time would have to bring cases individually to sue for £50 or £60. That is not realistic and even so, they are not allowed to bring an action at the moment in the District Court. The only way they could sue would be to sue in the Circuit Court, with all the attendant costs and hassles. That is just not realistic.

We have advocated for a system that will allow for collective redress for consumer harm. Representative actions do not allow for damages to be paid under our law. We made a submission and the NCA made a similar submission simultaneously to the European Commission which recommended reform. We would love to have a debate on that issue in Ireland if it were possible. I want to commend the Department for taking the first step towards assisting the bringing of damages actions, by creating this provision of res judicata, where the court has already made a finding of infringement. If a case is brought by us or by the DPP, an infringement finding made by the court will now be binding on any follow-on actions that might be brought by somebody else. That is a good first step, but there are other things that need to be done.

Ms Isolde Goggin

Senator Mullins asked if we were happy that there are no cartels. We are not at all happy. We have received complaints and we continue to investigate complaints. The issue of petrol prices bothers competition authorities everywhere. One often finds that everybody in a particular area is charging the same price for petrol. What makes a cartel is the fact that there must be some kind of agreement between the undertakings to charge the same price. Where there is a retail prices display order, as is the case for petrol, then everybody knows what everybody else is charging. Perhaps there is an incentive to charge a little less, but there is not necessarily an incentive to charge a whole lot less. Local markets with a lot of price transparency tend to lead to all the prices coming together. There is a terrible phrase known as "rockets and feathers" which describes some markets where prices go up together very quickly and come down together very slowly. It has been examined by many agencies across Europe, and while I am not saying that there have been no findings of the existence of cartels, there are other explanations for price parallelism. If we get complaints and evidence, we will look into them.

The issue of imbalances of power is a difficult thing to get at. When we talk about abuse of dominance, competition authorities use dominance in a very specific legal sense. If a company has less than 50% market share, as a rule of thumb it is unlikely to be dominant. Companies have been found to be in a dominant position with a market share of between 40% and 50%, but that is very unusual. It only occurs normally when a market share is above 50%. People do not have that level of market share in most markets, but there can be an imbalance at different stages of the food chain and that is why the programme for Government has included a provision to enable the creation of a statutory code of practice for the grocery goods sector.

Accusations have been made in the media that the groceries order was almost worth having because it kept alcohol prices high. There are many social and cultural reasons for having high alcohol prices, but we do not need to have the price of every other grocery high in order to keep that. I notice that there are proposals for a minimum price of alcohol, which has just been introduced in Scotland. These are the decisions that politicians have to make, taking different issues into account. If there is to be a high price for alcohol, perhaps it should be high because the tax is high, rather than because the profit is high. There are two sides to every market. There is buying and selling. Price has a big influence on consumption, particularly for teenagers and so on, but if we raise the price and do not raise the cost, then we put a big wedge of profit in there and we create a big incentive for people to sell more alcohol. However, if the wedge is reduced through tax, we can have a high price and a low profit as well, which is the other side of the equation.

We are subject to the Ethics in Public Office Act 1995 and we all sign declarations every year that go to the Department and to the ethics commissioner. In terms of corporate governance, we are absolutely on a par with the public sector in general.

Deputy Calleary asked whether we talk to other competition agencies. There is a European competition network, arranged in sub-groups, working groups and so on, where people get together to discuss certain sectors, particular types of practices and so on. In some areas there is a lot of commonality but in others, because we are not the decision-making body, the Irish authority is different from most other agencies. However, we keep in close contact with our colleagues in other European countries.

Dr. David McFadden

I wish to add that the network obliges us to have people engaged in constant daily monitoring of cases. Information is shared, not just with regard to developments in case law but on actual cases being opened by the Commission. If we decided to open a case for an alleged infringement in Ireland of Article 101 or 102 of the treaty, which we are empowered to do now, we would inform our colleagues on the network of what we were doing in case others were doing so at the same time. If we were the only agency doing so, the case would probably stay with us, but if three or more countries were looking at the same case, it might be decided that one country will take the lead or the case might be sent to the Commission itself. We are part of an active network that is monitored daily and we must have people working on the system, sharing information concerning the opening and closing of cases, ongoing investigations, obtaining information on cases and so forth.

Where an Irish company is fined as part of a European price fixing cartel, would it be routine for an investigation into that company to be initiated in this jurisdiction?

Further to that question, would the authority initiate an investigation if an Irish company was part of a price fixing cartel operating in the UK or in some other jurisdiction, not necessarily in Europe?

Ms Isolde Goggin

It would depend on the evidence. We cannot try a company twice for the same offence. If it was something that happened in another country-----

I think it should serve as a signal that if price fixing is happening in another jurisdiction, it might also be happening here. Would it not indicate to the authority that the company would be worth investigating?

Ms Isolde Goggin

It might but it would depend on the evidence available and who is willing to swear up to that evidence. It certainly would suggest to us that the sector is worth looking at but it would not prove, of itself, that price-fixing is happening. We would have to get the evidence-----

Ms Goggin seems to be saying that we should encourage more people to come forward to the authority with information so that procedures can take place. The only problem, as I see it, is the length of time investigations take. Ms Goggin indicated earlier that one individual died during the course of an investigation. The length of time between the receipt of an initial complaint and the fulfilment of an investigation is excessive. Perhaps we need to learn from the European system, where the process is much quicker, which results in a public perception that the system is working and is fair. The public must be confident that the authority is doing the job it was set up to do but, as far as some of us are concerned, it is not. It is taking too long to prosecute cases. In some instances, it has taken eight to ten years for cases to reach the courts, which does not instill any confidence.

Given her experience and the fact Ms Goggin has been involved with the authority over a long period, does she believe it would be in the interests of Irish consumers to adopt the European system?

Dr. David McFadden

I wish to respond to the point made about time using the example of the heating oil case. The first call we received from an anonymous complainant was in June 2001. We conducted surveillance in various places in the west and began to gather evidence. We conducted searches in February 2002 and by the end of that year we had a file ready to go to the Director of Public Prosecutions. Even though that case was the first of its kind, we got a very substantial investigation under wraps very quickly. However-----

When did the authority get a prosecution?

It was ten years later.

Dr. David McFadden

That is what I am coming to. We did our work expeditiously. The case was the first of its kind and we broke new ground in that we had to conduct searches over numerous sites, investigate and question numerous suspects and so forth. Despite this, once we sent the file to the DPP, and the DPP acted quickly, the criminal process was such that the prosecution took a long time to secure. On one occasion, three accused parties applied to have their case moved from Galway Circuit Criminal Court to Dublin and that application was allowed. It took a year before the case came for hearing in Dublin, at which point there was no court available and case was then put back for a year. Rather than wait, we advocated, and the DPP agreed, that we press on with the other cases. The accused parties in those cases also applied to have their cases moved but, thankfully, those applications were not granted and the cases came on for hearing quickly and were dealt with. The first conviction from that investigation was secured in March 2006. By the close of business in 2007, most of the convictions were secured. One case hung on until early 2008, at which point it was directed to the Supreme Court. That court decided in our favour in 2011 on a specific point and the case was sent back and was tried before a jury in 2012.

I am not trying to say that it was everybody's fault bar ours but these processes are cumbersome, slow and time-consuming. However, unlike in other jurisdictions, we must take the criminal prosecution route. It was the first time that a criminal cartel was ever brought before a jury in Ireland or Europe. It was also the first case of its kind to result in a jury conviction. Even so, it is a slow process.

If the European system operated here, then at the end of 2002, when the authority had all the case files in place, the accused parties would have been fined and the taxpayer would have been saved the costs incurred in the criminal prosecution process.

Ms Isolde Goggin

I must point out that even within the European system, the possibility of appeal exists. Some cases go up and down through that appeals process, which can add four or five years, and there is not a whole lot one can do about it. Certainly, where there are fewer actors in the chain, the process is quicker, but that is the system and Constitution we have.

The process, by its very nature, involves an awful lot of people.

Ms Isolde Goggin

In some countries there is no separate Director of Public Prosecutions..

Is that a good thing?

Ms Isolde Goggin

All I can say is that I believe we have done a good job within the confines of the system we have. There are broader issues at play.

Would the authority do a better job under a different system?

Ms Isolde Goggin

One must look at the broader picture. It is relatively easy to look at it and say the European system is better. We never wanted to have administrative fines but we prepared a paper some time ago where we suggested that civil fines would be good. However, even with civil fines, we would still go to court and would still have a judge making the decisions. However, the burden of proof would be less. It would be on the balance of probabilities rather than beyond reasonable doubt.

Our system of going through the courts gives us security with regard to fairness, reasonableness, access to natural justice and so on. In that context, there are a lot of critics of the European system who point out that competition authorities are taking cases through from investigation to virtually hanging the parties and that the prosecutor is not independent of the decision-maker. There is some attempt to create a separation between prosecutor and decision-maker through the construction of so-called Chinese walls, but no system is perfect. Ours is very strong in some respects but, admittedly, it is not the fastest.

I thank the representatives of the Competition Authority for addressing the committee today. I also thank members for their attention and participation.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.10 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 4 September 2012.
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