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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Feb 2012

Modern Languages in Primary Schools Initiative: Discussion

The second session is a discussion with representatives of the modern languages in primary schools initiative, MLPSI, on the proposed abolition of the initiative.. We have a number of speakers but the main spokesperson is Ms Tanya Flanagan, the national co-ordinator of the programme.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or any official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

By virtue of section 17(2) (l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in regard to a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I hope that does not scare anyone.

Mr. Robert Halford

I thank the Chair. It is my role today to introduce everyone. I am chairperson of the Kildare Education Centre which hosts the initiative. I would like to introduce the team but first I thank the committee for allowing us to attend the meeting. I look forward to the interaction with the committee.

On my immediate left is Ms Dolores Hamill, director of the Kildare Education Centre. Beside her is Dr. Kenia Puig i Planella, regional adviser to the initiative. Next to her is Ms Tanya Flanagan, the national co-ordinator. She will be the main presenter today. Beside her is Ms Pascaline Horan, another regional adviser to the initiative. Finally, we have Dr. Deirdre Kirwan, principal of a school in Blanchardstown where the initiative has been extremely successful.

I will preface the presentation by saying that we believe the proposal to abolish the initiative is ill-advised. That is not the way it should be. It is a highly effective and efficient programme, and one that is extremely popular among students. It makes a real difference to the learner, both in the short term, then as a young adult and, critically, as a worker in modern Europe. Given the recent successes, we are distressed at the possibility that the initiative would be set aside. I ask Ms Flanagan, the national co-ordinator, to make her oral presentation.

I thank Mr. Halford. We must end the meeting at approximately 11.45 a.m.

Ms Tanya Flanagan

I thank the Chair and members of the committee. The modern languages in primary schools initiative was first launched as a pilot project in 1998. Such was its success that it was designated an initiative in 2001. Our aims are to create a positive attitude towards language learning, to include a variety of schools, to facilitate and support diversification in the languages we teach, and to create links between primary and post-primary schools. More than 27,000 children in schools throughout the country benefit from the opportunity to learn a modern language, which not only lays the foundation for their language learning within the system but also brings many additional benefits, including enhanced cognitive skills, an openness to new cultures and learning experiences and enhanced literacy skills.

The schools originally selected from the 1,300 schools that applied to join the initiative were offered a choice of using their own staff or employing a peripatetic or visiting language teacher. Unsurprisingly, the vast majority of schools chose to avail of a visiting teacher with the result that in the early years of the initiative, 80% of teachers involved were visiting teachers. There are currently 545 schools teaching Italian, Spanish, German or French to senior pupils and, where staff capacity permits, to other class groups as well. As all schools joining the project in recent years must have staff capacity to deliver the programme, this, together with our efforts to build language capacity within the system, has brought us to a point where 56% of teachers involved are staff teachers and there is no additional cost to the Department as they deliver the programme as part of their normal work.

As the decision has been predicated on policy, let us turn for a moment to the current languages policy context obtaining in this country. The Department sought advice on the formulation of a national languages and education policy. While recommendations and action points were received from the Council of Europe in 2008, work on this is still ongoing. As such, all language teaching and learning operates within a current language policy vacuum. In his correspondence, the Minister referred to the influence of the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, feasibility report from 2008 and its conclusion that curriculum overload is an issue. The same report refers specifically to how the participating schools managed to overcome the challenges of time, widely articulated in the primary curriculum review. It also highlights that in schools offering a third language, Irish and English were reported to have gained. While it did not include modern languages in the curriculum in 2008, it clearly reiterated that the options proposed did not preclude schools continuing with a competency model of language teaching and learning. There are many more positive references to the MLPSI in the feasibility report rather than the narrow interpretation being reflected. The NCCA itself indicated surprise that this "very dated report is being cited in such narrow terms".

It would be of more relevance for the committee to focus on the NCCA's current language policy which has evolved considerably since 2008. A focus of the NCCA's current programme of work is the development of a new integrated languages curriculum for all languages for all children which will embrace a more plurilingual approach to languages. It recently commissioned additional research in this area from Pádraig Ó Duibhir and Jim Cummins to be completed in the coming weeks. As we await the publication of a national languages and education policy, the NCCA believes there is much to be learned from the MLPSI and that this experience and expertise will be valuable to the education system in the context of future policy decisions.

The modern languages in primary school curriculum is completely in line with the primary school curriculum. Modern languages lend themselves particularly well to integration right across the curriculum while also being a valuable vehicle which allows teachers to address issues such as culture, heritage, citizenship and inclusion in a natural and holistic way.

We assure the committee that we are mindful of the need to enhance literacy levels in the system but it is important to note, as has been tested by our schools and independent evaluation reports, that modern language provision has made a positive contribution to literacy in schools, in particular in disadvantaged areas.

Having spoken about this country, I would like to allude briefly to developments in language policy across Europe. These have happened at a much more significant rate in other jurisdictions, largely due to commitments made under the Lisbon strategy in 2000 and further detailed in the Barcelona agreement from 2002 which committed member states to take action to "improve the mastery of basic skills, particularly to teaching at least two foreign languages from a very early age". Many countries have introduced more than one additional language to their primary systems, and schools are introducing them to pupils at an earlier age. The MLPSI allows this country to work towards fulfilling obligations in the future when it is to be hoped all children will be able to learn more languages, as they can in other countries. If modern language provision ceases, regrettably we will see a return to the situation which prevailed prior to 1998 when the only children with multilingual skills in this country were those from multilingual families and those who could afford to pay for the privilege. In many ways, the decision to end the MLPSI comes at a time when there has never been as much momentum behind the languages agenda in educational and economic terms. This brings me to the fundamental importance of language learning for the Irish economy. The OECD now refers to the term "international competence" as a combination of languages and intercultural skills which employees will need to compete in the jobs market of today and tomorrow. IBEC, Forfás, the expert group on future skills needs, the IDA, the Royal Irish Academy and even the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation as well as economists and industry leaders have all highlighted the language skills deficit in this country which affects not only indigenous companies wishing to capitalise on export potential but also multinationals which have their European and international bases here.

Sustaining early modern language learning will ensure our children have an interest in and a love of languages and will become lifelong learners of language and enjoy enhanced literacy levels as well as the many other benefits associated with an early introduction to modern languages. The model for modern language provision in its current form delivers exceptional value for money and helps children achieve valuable learning outcomes. The costs involved have decreased and the MLPSI has been congratulated on its efficient delivery of enhanced services with a decreasing budget. It is a cost-effective model which gives professional support to 545 principals and almost 500 teachers, of whom more than 200 are employed directly by the programme. Should the MLPSI end, this investment would be lost to the system and the loss of the significant number of teaching positions would be a source of great regret.

In our submission we have outlined possible options for the Department to consider and we are more than willing to discuss these and any other proposals with the Minister and his officials. I thank the committee members for their attention and we are more than happy to answer any questions or provide clarification on any aspect of our submission.

I thank the delegation for its presentation and the written material provided. Ms Flanagan referred to enhancing literacy in the system. What is the positive impact of this programme on disadvantaged schools? Will the witnesses outline the links between additional language learning and literacy?

Ms Pascaline Horan

I will answer on disadvantaged schools. Approximately 20%, a total of 108, of the cohort of schools involved are disadvantaged schools. This means a huge percentage of primary DEIS schools, almost 40%, have chosen voluntarily to become involved in the programme and have consistently applied to participate over the past 14 years. This testifies to the fact that these schools, principals and teachers believe it is hugely valuable. They would not be there if they did not believe in it. All DEIS school principals are concerned about literacy. There will be a strategy for improving literacy, and these principals will be at the forefront of this battle. They would not want to be involved if it did not benefit the children.

From my experience as a teacher in a DEIS band one school in Cork city and from speaking to principals and teachers in the schools I can outline a number of benefits to disadvantaged schools. By participating in the project these schools and principals feel they counteract the basic inequality that existed pre-1998 when only those who could afford modern languages as an after school extracurricular activity had that choice. With regard to what it means to the pupils, starting a new subject in fifth class is very exciting for children in DEIS schools. Many of these children have not experienced success in learning. Starting a new language enables literacy to be addressed in a new medium. It is not a case of one against the other, and so long as we pit one against the other we make a mistake. Contrary to what we believed in the past it has been proven that to address literacy through one language is not necessarily more effective. When one learns a language one gains a range of cognitive skills, not only skills in literacy.

The methodologies employed in the modern languages in primary schools initiative have particularly suited children in DEIS schools because they have emphasised active learning and oral language skills. Many of these children have become disengaged from what we may call the traditional subjects where greater amounts of writing are required in fifth and sixth classes. The chance to start anew on a level playing pitch with their peers has been very satisfying for these children and the principals have seen this.

Many schools, principals and teachers report enhanced attitudes towards Irish. It is very difficult sometimes for teachers in disadvantaged schools to engage children in the Irish language because they have inherited, for whatever reason, a negative attitude towards it. The Irish teachers in the schools, through the continuing professional development they have received in the modern languages in primary schools initiative, have become more excited about teaching Irish by using the methodologies in which they have been trained.

According to the 2002 evaluation report by Dr. John Harris, the initiative has made a particular difference to disadvantaged schools, and in general pupils in disadvantaged schools have made as much progress in learning modern languages as pupils in other schools. This is a unique example of successful learning in disadvantaged schools. In a direct comparison with any other subject one would not see the same results.

Modern languages in primary schools was a project in 1998, it was an initiative in 2001 and this year it is not necessary. This is what the Minister is signalling. Where does this leave the 545 schools involved? Will languages no longer be an option for the pupils in these schools? We know from research that children are like sponges when it comes to information. The earlier they get information or learn languages the more chance they have of picking it up. We are told we are relying on an export-led economy. I have read some of the documentation submitted and employers such as Google have stressed the importance of languages. However, we are removing this initiative from the system. This does not make sense.

Who is funding the research to which reference was made? Is it the Department? It is important we do this with regard to forming policy because a report has not been done on this since the INTO Quigley report on languages. It is strange that we are jumping the gun rather than waiting for the research to see how we can roll it out.

I remind members and witnesses to switch off their mobile phones. I can hear interference.

Ms Tanya Flanagan

I thank Deputy Crowe for his questions. I will pick up on his points in the order in which he raised them. At present, 545 schools are involved in the voluntary programme. I reiterate to committee members that this number in no way reflects the interest in language learning. When the project was launched more than 1,300 schools applied to join. As Deputy Crowe stated the timing of this is quite bizarre because there has never been as much interest in language learning and the languages agenda is very much to the fore in education and economics.

The budget announcement was supposed to mean that with immediate effect on 31 December the project was to end which left us all in the wilderness because we were not informed on how it would impact directly on schools. It would mean an end to visiting teachers but, as I stated, a large number of schools involved in the project have the staff capacity to deliver the programme. Many of the schools involved in the project have the staff capacity to deliver the programme, but we have received no further direction from the Department. Just before Christmas it clarified that the initiative was to be allowed to continue until the end of the current academic year. It is in this context that we are attending this meeting to progress the consultations further.

The importance of languages in terms of our export markets was mentioned. In some of our research we came across astonishing data that highlighted the fact that, while there continued to be an emphasis on Brazil, Russia, India and China - the BRIC countries - our exports were performing most strongly in our traditional markets. CSO data from the first three quarters of 2011 indicated that exports to our traditional markets of France, Germany, Spain, Italy and Switzerland were worth a combined total of €24 billion.

The timing is circumspect. The Royal Irish Academy launched a significant policy document in October entitled, The National Languages Strategy. One of its main recommendations was that modern languages be mainstreamed in the curriculum and that all children be offered an opportunity to learn an additional language in line with developments throughout Europe.

The research alluded to was commissioned by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, and carried out by Dr. Pádraig Ó Duibhir of St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra, and Dr. Jim Cummins, an Irishman living in Canada who has carried out extensive research in the field of language acquisition. Given the NCCA's involvement, the funding was departmental. The NCCA agrees that a considerable amount can be learned from the teaching of modern languages in primary schools initiative, MLPSI, in terms of future policy developments. Policy work is ongoing. The Department realised the need to progress the issue and in 2005 invited a delegation from the Council of Europe which consulted widely with all of the partners in the education system on the question of language teaching. It received a comprehensive report in 2008 that was specific in its recommendations, guiding principles and action points. Subsequently, the Department convened a working group to progress the issue. We understand a draft of a national language and education policy was submitted to the Department at some point after this, but it has not been published. Work is ongoing on the matter.

The 1991 INTO report was mentioned. It was the last national study undertaken, but other research has been commissioned since. For example, independent evaluation reports were carried out on the initiative in 2002 and 2007 by the Linguistics Institute of Ireland, ITÉ and, latterly, Trinity College Dublin.

I welcome the delegation. We are years behind the Barcelona agreement and the Lisbon Agenda, under which systems were to have been put in place to facilitate the learning of languages. The minimum requirement was catering for two foreign languages. Fourteen years of specialty training and an entire structure, including people with expertise, will be lost to the education system. We must prepare students to compete. At previous meetings the committee discussed the issues of accessing jobs and mobility, in that there will be great migration within the European Union to acquire work. Once again, we are at a considerable disadvantage.

The Minister has referred to a negative letter sent to the Chairman, dated 17 December. It is a lame excuse for dropping these subjects. When a mass of people are being catered for, we must remember the students first. It has been stated-----

May we have a question, please?

Accessibility at second level needs the current foundations to be enhanced. In the long term those seeking jobs will be severely disadvantaged. Consider the amount of social welfare money that will be needed to offset this. A short-term view is being taken.

As no question was asked - the Deputy only made comments - we will move on to the next questioner.

Ms Tanya Flanagan

Let me pick up on Deputy Tom Fleming's reference to the foundations. Children will not be fluent after an experience in primary school, but they will have an interest in and a love of languages and a desire to be life-long learners of them. We are discussing early language learning. In an Irish context, this occurs at the upper end of primary school when children are aged between ten and 12 years. However, the process of early language learning has progressed at a far more significant rate in other European countries. Not only are most of them offering more languages, they are offering them earlier and earlier. For example, languages are offered in Spain at the age of three years. Whereas early language learning used to be referred to as the primary context, it is increasingly being referred to as the pre-primary context. I concur with the Deputy, that we are somewhat behind.

Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor is next and will be followed by Senator John Kelly.

Ms Flanagan has made an excellent presentation and I have significant sympathy in terms of where she is coming from. I have a good knowledge of the courses delivered as part of the initiative. I am a fan of its methodologies, the content of its programmes and how it provides for language teaching in the classroom, which is done on the cheap at a time when budgets are constrained.

The group refers on page 8 of its submission to visiting and staff teachers. Our guests can correct me if I am wrong, but I understand their budget is approximately €2.5 million. Visiting teachers come to schools, but, as many of us know, staff teachers would be well able to deliver the programme were they to receive training as part of the initiative. Will Ms Flanagan comment on what is occurring in the training colleges in terms of teachers being trained on how to teach foreign languages?

Ms Flanagan mentioned that she had solutions to offer and asked whether the committee would like to hear them. I would. She mentioned that she could reduce the budget, which is what we want to hear. We are sympathetic to her concerns.

I welcome the delegation and compliment Ms Flanagan on her presentation, in which she mentioned retrograde steps. I tend to agree with her. Deputy Seán Crowe mentioned Google and the importance of modern languages in business. Ms Flanagan mentioned the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation which has stated there is a language skills deficit. We should not lose sight of these matters simply because we are in a certain financial position.

We have decided to spend €2.5 million or €2.7 million on literacy and numeracy initiatives and put the MLPSI on the scrapheap. I had a lovely cup of coffee with four modern language teachers before attending this meeting and we had a good discussion about the issue. One of them asked me what it would cost the taxpayer. We would save €2.7 million, but placing 270 people on social welfare payments would cost the taxpayer €5.76 million a year. When Departments make decisions such as this, they forget about the cost to other Departments. It is important that the delegation bring this fact to the attention of the Minister for Education and Skills in its submission to him and the committee should make sure he knows it. It should also tell the Minister for Social Protection. In everything we do it seems there is a lack of joined-up thinking. We are drawing from the same pot of money.

Should French formally be part of the primary school curriculum?

Ms Flanagan has been asked a couple of questions.

Ms Tanya Flanagan

I will take them in reverse order. It was always the long-term goal to mainstream languages in the curriculum, as recommended by the Royal Irish Academy as recently as last October. The primary school curriculum was revised in 1999. Even though French was not included as a mandatory subject at that point, there are numerous references in the curriculum documents to the need for a review in that regard, given developments at European level. The long-term goal has always been that all schools in every county should offer this learning opportunity to children.

The position of visiting teachers was raised. We have a large number of visiting teachers who have been involved from the beginning and they have brought an incredible richness to the programme. Many of them are qualified primary teachers from other jurisdictions who, as well as having the language specialism, also bring a cultural richness to the programme which has been of incredible benefit to the schools involved. I agree that there has not been widespread research commissioned in this area for many years. There is incredible staff capacity within the system which could be tapped into to bring this learning opportunity to more schools.

Last year we launched, in collaboration with the Italian Cultural Institute, an Italian course for primary teachers with a prior knowledge of the language. We had no idea how many teachers would apply, given that Italian would not have been our most popular language. Some 30 teachers enrolled and more are on a waiting list. There is, therefore, capacity within the system to sustain this project into the future.

On the colleges of education, there are 309 students enrolled in the languages departments at St. Patrick's College and Mary Immaculate College which have established French and German departments. Other colleges have indicated an interest in introducing languages to a greater degree in their programmes. It is unfortunate that the issue of timing arises continually. The colleges of education are engaged in a review of their programmes of teacher education. Members may be aware that all B.Ed programmes are moving from three to four years duration. The review presented a golden opportunity for colleges to introduce languages, capitalise on the language skills young teachers already possess and ensure all teaching graduates would have a language, thus increasing capacity considerably.

On solutions, it is welcome that the Department has prioritised its policy on literacy and numeracy. However, the point being missed is that literacy is not a monolingual concept. It does not involve Irish and English alone: there are 167 languages spoken in the primary system. We see modern language teaching provision as complementing the literacy agenda. That is where the solution lies.

That is a fair point.

I thank Ms Flanagan for her presentation. It strikes me, from the discussion she has had with other members thus far, that the literacy and cost arguments do not stand up, given the numbers of disadvantaged schools which have voluntarily taken up the programme. These schools operate in a challenging environment and their priority is promoting literacy and helping children to read and write, in particular in English. They obviously believe this programme could be of benefit to them. I note Ms Flanagan's letter from the principal of the senior school in Darndale which provides a strong endorsement of the programme. If teachers teaching children with the most challenging literacy problems believe the programme is advantageous, we should be listening to them.

On costs, I agree with the comments made by other members, in particular those relating to the futility of putting people on the dole, which is remarkable. Will visiting teachers who have been involved in the programme for a long time be entitled to redundancy payments or will they be redeployed? Making people redundant and putting them on the dole will result in greater costs. I am not sure if the delegates can answer that question, but it strikes me that at issue is whether any savings will be achieved. As pointed out, we need to focus on the long-term economic benefits.

I thank the delegates for their presentations. Ms Flanagan may be aware that I am a language enthusiast. Before our children turned 14 years, we sent them to school in France for one term. The two girls fell in love with French men at the age of 13 years and are now married to French men. This means our grandchildren have a French-speaking father and an Irish-English speaking mother. What impresses me is the ability of three and four year olds to soak up a language. My four year old grandson who lives in Ireland speaks French and English and attends Spanish classes with his parents.

Are there different ways by which we can educate not currently used in Ireland? I am surprised to hear Ireland is the only country in Europe in which language learning is not compulsory at primary school level. What are we not doing correctly compared with other countries? How can the way in which we teach be improved?

Another issue is the length of school holidays in Ireland. Teachers in Japan get 16 days holidays a year. I gather teachers in Ireland get more days holidays than teachers in any other country in Europe. Should we be examining the way our students are taught and the number of days holidays in that regard?

Ms Tanya Flanagan

The Senator is correct that Ireland is the only European country in which modern language teaching does not form a mandatory part of the curriculum, which is the crux of the issue. Other countries have prioritised language teaching. Dr. John Harrison's input to our submission clearly reiterates that countries in even greater dire straits economically than Ireland have continued to prioritise modern language teaching. Countries such as Spain, Italy, Greece and Portugal are prioritising language learning as a way out of the economic difficulties we are all experiencing. They are not all learning English either: they are learning other languages also. Modern language teaching must become a priority for the Government. Languages need to be viewed not alone in an educational or economic context but also in a social context. We need to value languages more. They are of phenomenal economic benefit to the country not alone in education terms but also in economic terms.

One of the testimonials included in our submission is from the Centre for Next Generation Localisation, an academic research body based in DCU. It is the link between academia and translation and localisation software industries in Ireland. That industry is worth €680 million to Ireland and employs more than 16,000 people. It is deeply concerned about this issue because it had envisaged collaboration with us this year in encouraging involvement by more primary schools in the teaching of foreign languages to children. It believes languages represent a viable career option.

I cannot comment on the holidays issue.

I like stirring it up.

Ms Tanya Flanagan

However, it is a valid question. We use holiday time productively. A large number of our teachers have availed of European funding to attend language courses in France, Germany, Spain, Austria and Italy. They are using their holiday time very well.

I thank the delegates for their presentations. I discussed this issue with Ms Flanagan last night. I have had first-hand experience of this initiative in the school in which I taught and concur with the comments made about disadvantaged schools. This has created a level playing pitch. While previously French lessons were only available in middle-class schools, the average DEIS school now provides this service. Children of immigrant families in Sweden have a right to learn the language of their parents, whereas in Ireland we are curtailing a modern languages initiative. The reality is that we do not do languages well, the biggest example being the Irish language. Given the amount of time spent by teachers training in the instruction of the teaching of the Irish language and teaching it in primary and secondary schools, every leaving certificate student should be fluent in Irish. However, that is not the case.

Similarly, we are well behind the curve in European terms in modern language teaching. I will not go through a political statement regarding cuts and strains from the economic position, as we have been through it before and spoke about it last night. The tragedy is we always discuss these issues in the context of cuts and we never have a long-term view of what language learning will be over time.

There was a comment on teacher training. Is there a potential in the six-month period to discuss that long-term strategy and mainstreaming modern languages? I often get criticised for making the following point. The two biggest overarching priority value judgments made in Irish education are the Irish language and religion. If those are mentioned or criticised by us at any stage, we are in for it. I know this and am a great advocate of the Irish language. We must have a different view of our priority system and our value judgments in Irish education. Although what is happening now is regrettable, will it provide a chance to re-evaluate what we do in education and where languages lie in that regard?

I met Ms Hamill and Ms Flanagan last night and it struck me that they were exceptionally enthusiastic about the programme. It is rare that a group coming to me is solution-based, as they were, and they had proposals on how this could be kept on. Many groups could take a leaf from their book in that respect. Will they elaborate on the level of cost of the programme that would allow it to keep running? Will the witnesses tell the members about some of the ideas for keeping the programme going if funding is an issue?

Ms Tanya Flanagan

The costs involved have been very clearly reiterated by a number of colleagues. The costs involved to start with are very small. We are delivering exceptional value for money within a very small budget, which has been decreasing for the past number of years due to a variety of reasons, as we have already outlined. The critical issue on cost is that there is significant potential within the existing budget to cater for even more schools, as all new schools joining the programme must use their own staff to deliver the modern language option, so we could take on more schools within an existing budget. The potential for enhanced delivery and services, ensuring more children can avail of this opportunity, is there within an already small budget that has things going in the right direction.

I agree with Deputy Ó Ríordáin's statement and now is absolutely the time to consider a longer term strategy. It is regrettable that this decision was taken in the absence of that considered reflection. As has been mentioned, this is a golden opportunity in some ways. The colleges of education will not be reviewing their programmes for a long time and this year they will consider the options; they are examining the skills they want our future teachers to have. I give presentations in the colleges of education every year and after my presentation there is a queue of young teachers waiting to speak to me. They would all have exceptional language skills, having had to do very well at languages to enter teacher training. Many people are coming to teaching having had other careers, with some having degrees in languages, particularly through the Hibernia College.

There is a significant interest in language learning because these teachers are getting to a market where they are competing for jobs, as there can be several hundred applications for every teaching vacancy. People are looking for something to make them unique, and they see modern languages as doing so. They are being snapped up by principals, as they are seen as potential future subject leaders in the area who can drive this at school level. We would warmly welcome an opportunity for review, which is one of the key points in our submission. We were not consulted at any stage on this decision, although we have been congratulated by the Department at every review meeting about how well we were managing to deliver our enhanced services within a decreasing budget.

I will return to the point about Gaeilge, as we have never seen ourselves in competition with Irish. People at our schools would testify that they have seen enhanced delivery of the teaching of Irish as well as an enhanced receptiveness to Irish. Pupils are finally beginning to realise that Irish is a language, rather than being put in a box as something they must learn. To bring it down to a school level, people may use it as the informal language of the classroom; on Mondays and Wednesdays English might be used, with Gaeilge on Tuesdays and Thursdays and French, German, Italian or Spanish on Fridays. That is the way we encourage our teachers and schools to operate.

We advocate a whole-school approach. If members went to any of the schools in our project in their constituencies, they would know they operate as trilingual schools. Ms Kirwan has more than 40 languages in her school and can testify to this. We see the positive impact on Irish, not just in terms of children learning but also in the teaching of Irish. With the methodologies and approaches, the integration focus is on ICT, with thousands of resources on our website being used by teachers for Irish. Some 93% of teachers in our evaluation report stated they had personally benefited from being involved in this programme because they see the impact not just in the context of modern language teaching but in broader teaching.

Are there any other thoughts on the costs?

Ms Tanya Flanagan

We have not-----

It is really important and what we are talking about is the potential cost.

The Minister has made it clear that cost is not the only element; there is also concern about numeracy and literacy.

Ms Dolores Hamill

It must be taken in a broader context. The estimate in the budget is €2.5 million. For the past three years that number has been reducing, with factors involved including the moratorium and the fact we do not bring out pay substitute cover for teachers. All the schools joining have internal capacity and there are no more resource grants for them. Many savings have already been achieved. I have figures from the Department but they need to be broken down further. I can meet members afterwards to go through the costs, which have definitely been reducing. The model as it stands will not see increased costs because every school comes in at no cost. We are achieving greater efficiencies, getting more with less, which we all have to do. We have accommodated this by re-evaluating the strategies for implementing continuing professional development, without which a programme cannot be run. We have new strategies that are in line with current practice in the professional development service for teachers.

We had already built up a cohort of local facilitators to deliver in the evening and we had just been given permission to reinvest some of the savings in using associates, which is the model for use when additional expertise is required, particularly in the language area. This is not a mainstream activity but it is national, so we must provide a service and support that is available across the country. To do this, the current thinking is about the use of associates and local facilitators. The expertise of the team is then expanded, and more is being achieved with less.

Perhaps the witnesses will send the members a note on the costs.

Ms Dolores Hamill

I have figures from the Department but they require further explanatory notes.

I believe Deputy Lyons was looking for the cost required to run the programme; that is leaving aside whatever the budget is now. Specifically, could it be done for less? Perhaps we could see some options, although not necessarily now.

Ms Dolores Hamill

I would not like to commit to figures without further study.

We can get them at some stage.

Ms Dolores Hamill

We would have to engage with Department officials and see what the figure can be reduced to. We have many ideas on how we can continue to deliver in a cost-effective manner.

The point is if we can get over the policy issue, could the costs be facilitated?

Mr. Robert Halford

I will mention cost as well. We have all become expert economists lately, although I have taught economics for a number of years. Economists understand costs slightly differently than accountants. There may be a bottom line cost of €2 million but this is an investment. This is the same as building a bridge, which cannot be done for €2.5 million. This will benefit the economy far into the future. In particular, if we could fast forward ten years hence, we imagine a more unified Europe with a fiscal union and far greater movement of workers, cultures and so forth. We need to be better prepared for this. We have here a highly efficient programme or initiative that we know works. We have all the elements in place and it is ready to go. In fact, it is already going and we are now talking about dismantling it. It makes no economic sense whatsoever.

The final two questioners are Senator Fidelma Healy Eames and Deputy Brendan Griffin.

This is a very exciting project, so much so that I regret my children are not availing of it in primary school through the MLPSI. Mr. Halford has hit the nail on the head at one level. I have a few questions in this regard. English is the language of choice for foreign direct investment, for which we are competing with the United Kingdom, in particular. However, competence in foreign languages is an added value. How do we compare with the United Kingdom in the teaching of foreign languages? The economic benefits will accrue to the nation if we can compete favourably in that regard.

Ms Flanagan and Ms Kirwan might also respond to my second question. The teaching of a foreign language, to which Senator Feargal Quinn alluded, complements the teaching of other languages. This country is committed to the 20 year strategy for the teaching of Irish. I used to teach at primary level and taught French in fifth and sixth class without the CPD which would have made a big difference to me. Will the delegates give an example of how one can practically teach a foreign language? How will it enhance the teaching of Irish?

As Ms Flanagan said, we have many teachers with a language in their basic degree in the teacher training colleges. How does one enhance capacity in the system? It has been said 56% of schools currently have in-house staff.

Ms Tanya Flanagan

It was said 56% of the staff involved were school-based.

Yes, they have languages. It would, therefore, cost practically nothing to keep this programme going, except for the CPD.

I thank the group for appearing before the committee today. I apologise for missing the presentation; I was in the Dáil Chamber. However, I have been informed of the issues involved by people working on the modern languages programme in County Kerry. I have been lobbied extensively on the issue and have engaged with the people involved. I raised this matter in a Topical Issue debate with the Minister before Christmas, but, unfortunately, the response was not very positive. He was adamant that there would not be a rowing back on the decision. In addition, the cost factor was not brought forward as the primary reason for shelving the initiative. However, it is something on which I will continue to work. As Deputy Aodhan Ó Ríordáin mentioned, this has ironically brought the teaching of languages in primary schools onto the political agenda, which is one positive to come from it. However, that is of no consolation to those benefitting from the initiative or to those involved in teaching languages.

It is very relevant that we are now examining the primary education sector and how we are addressing the teaching of languages, not just European languages but also languages spoken in the BRIC countries.

Will the Deputy ask his question?

We are looking to these countries as markets we can develop and expand. I have rarely seen Portuguese being taught in an Irish school. Portuguese, Russian, Hindi and Chinese are languages we could consider. Are there specific proposals that could be given to the committee regarding the overall curriculum and how modern languages could be incorporated into it? That would be very helpful.

I invite the delegates to respond to the final questions.

Ms Tanya Flanagan

I will respond before asking Dr. Kirwan to discuss the Irish context, in particular.

With regard to the decision made, it was predicated on a policy decision. As I outlined in my submission, that policy decision was largely based on a report taken in a very narrow context. It certainly did not reflect the broader content of the report. We spoke at length about this in the submission.

I am delighted to hear that schools in County Kerry were in contact with the Deputy. There are over 50 schools in that county doing this as part of our programme. In terms of building capacity, we have made concerted efforts not only through the colleges of education but also through our extensive links with the ATCI, the education centre network, to develop local language course provision. Importantly, the cultural institutes and embassies have had a very strong role in building capacity and invested significantly in recent years in this programme in terms of ensuring teachers receive adequate support.

To refer to the UK context, I will divide it into three regions. Modern language learning is compulsory at Key Stage 3, which approximates to the senior end of primary school here. There were plans to introduce it at Key Stage 2 as a statutory requirement, but that decision is being reviewed. Recently, however, the Secretary of State for Education, Mr. Michael Gove, has said he wants to introduce modern languages from the age of five years in England.

That would give them an advantage over us.

Ms Tanya Flanagan

Absolutely. In Scotland it is not a mandatory part of the curriculum, but, in practice, 98% of pupils are learning a modern language. Wales has recently introduced a new trilingual literacy strategy called, Supporting Trilingual Literacy, in which it is prioritising English, Welsh and foreign languages in primary schools.

I will hand over to Dr. Kirwan to discuss her school.

Dr. Deirdre Kirwan

First, it costs nothing in my school because the teachers on our staff teach it to our fifth and sixth classes. In terms of teachers and anybody teaching modern languages in my school, even when they go on holidays, they do not leave their work behind because invariably they come back loaded with resources they have paid for themselves. Perhaps taking a holiday is not such a bad idea.

They come back loaded.

Dr. Deirdre Kirwan

Absolutely, with resources for teaching languages. Senator Feargal Quinn will be very familiar with the area in which the school I am teaching in is located. In the last 18 years it has undergone a dramatic change. It went from being the local village school, in which the grannies, grandads and parents went to school, to having 70% of its enrolment being non-native speakers of English. We have acquired extensive experience in language learning and teaching in that time. The children who are most successful in the school, who are not Irish, are those who attend Polish, Romanian or Urdu classes after school. In terms of comparisons with the cohort not doing this, the English language development of these children would be at a higher level.

As Ms Flanagan said, if one looks at literacy from a narrow viewpoint, one will get a narrow result. That is very important in the context of the new literacy programme. As Mr. Jim Cummins who has been mentioned and Professor David Little, formerly professor of linguistics in TCD, tell us, languages should not be taught in isolation; learning languages enhances all language learning and, therefore, literacy.

If the programme is pulled, will Dr. Kirwan continue it?

Dr. Deirdre Kirwan

I hope we would be allowed to continue it, as it would be a shame not to. I can offer a solution, given that solutions are being sought here also. With regard to teacher training, we have courses offering business with French law or something else or with another modern language. I firmly believe that is the way we should proceed with teacher training.

As far as methods are concerned, an issue mentioned by Senator Feargal Quinn, the Council of Europe has done an enormous amount of work on language teaching and learning in the past ten to 12 years. Is that work filtering down here? It has certainly filtered down to the MLPSI. We came across it simply because we had to, as we were dealing with non-native speakers of English. I am not sure that those methods have filtered beyond that and if we were to bring the language component into teacher training, it would have enormous benefits to the teaching of Irish, modern languages and English.

That is an excellent recommendation. We need to inform the teaching of language and teacher education.

Senator Healy Eames should allow Dr. Kirwan to finish; we can talk about her point afterwards.

I had to leave because of the vote in the Seanad but the last recommendation is powerful.

There is a vote in the Seanad but the debate will appear in the Official Report and committee members will go through it. The witnesses can continue answering questions.

Dr. Deirdre Kirwan

We were thrown in at the deep end because we were at the forefront of taking in people from abroad. When the MLPSI programme started, we applied to be part of it. Unfortunately, we were not successful the first time around. We had taught French to children in our schools since 1988 but unfortunately a small number were able to go to class after school. We could not do it during school. A number of years ago, we are thrilled to get onto the MLPSI programme because all of the children in fifth class and sixth class could avail of it. As well as that, teachers in our schools teaching French could receive training from MLPSI that they would not otherwise have got. It has changed the way they teach languages. We have three official languages in school and 40 unofficial languages. The methodology promoted and developed through the Council of Europe and channelled through MLPSI has filtered into teaching. It is a successful way to teach. This project has remained a pilot project but it should be available and compulsory in all schools. The methodology used and the enhancement of teachers' professional skills as a result is second to none.

We have gone over time but the Minister has not yet arrived so we can continue.

Dr. Kenia Puig i Plannella

We have commented on all aspects of our submission. We discussed the impact it has and how it fits with literacy. The Minister referred to the PISA results and Ireland's place at 17th. Most of the countries ahead of Ireland on the list have committed to multilingualism for a long time. This includes countries such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Finland and the Netherlands, which foster multilingualism from early on in primary schools. That helps us to see how literacy is addressed. When children learn a third language, they have already developed literacy skills in their first and second languages. This gives them the chance to enhance their skills. They stand back from the languages they know and they can reflect on language and see how it works. That makes them better at the languages they know and better at learning languages later.

We have not touched on the inter-cultural dimension of our project. The work teachers do in classrooms on inter-cultural awareness is invaluable. It broadens children's rights and gives them skills to deal with other cultures at the same time as examining their own culture. They reflect on how we do things here and how things are done abroad. It happens in the context of modern language learning in the modern language. That aspect of it, developing the inter-cultural competence, will also be lost and I think it is valuable.

Ms Tanya Flanagan

The voice of parents is included in our submission but not reiterated orally. It has been part of the constitution of the National Parents Council Primary for over 30 years that modern languages should be offered to all children. The last major survey of parental attitudes to the education system was the Your Education System, YES, campaign from a few years ago. Parents were asked about 13 issues and the lack of provision of modern languages in primary schools was the issue of greatest concern.

Ms Dolores Hamill

Several options have been proposed and I am aware that we did not get to go through them. We are solution focused and we will look at the options to maintain modern languages in primary schools. As John Harris from Trinity College Dublin pointed out, 20 years is the standard time from introduction to completion of a programme. Members are familiar with the 20 year strategy for Gaeilge. We are 12 years into a 20-year journey and the investment will be totally lost. On behalf of all of us and the Kildare Education Centre, I would like the committee to recommend to the Minister that modern languages be maintained and that the process of further consultation be entered into. There are opportunities here to reflect on other issues.

I cannot speak on behalf of committee because we must make a decision on it. It is something we will discuss further. Witnesses have given us much useful information. We must discuss the issue and formulate a plan for the years ahead. Our committee spans three Departments, each of which is affected by what the witnesses discussed. The Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation is concerned with jobs, which is key, and it affects the Department of Social Protection because of the impact of jobs lost. This is the committee to examine solutions and see what we can put together. I will recommend that we should examine it in the long term as well. That decision will be taken by the committee and we will engage with the witnesses again as well as linking with the Minister. He was here last week and we have had meetings with him before. It is not just a money issue, he genuinely believes the curriculum is full in primary school with regard to literacy and numeracy. The witnesses may shake their heads but that is what he believes. We must work on the issue and discuss it. The witnesses presented interesting data to show that their programme helps literacy.

Mr. Robert Halford

I want to emphasise that this is not a threat to any budget. It is complementary to the budget. With regard to the flavour of the month, the literacy and numeracy policy, this will work in parallel to it and will supplement it. It is not in conflict with the literacy and numeracy policy. I thank the Chairman, Deputies and Senators for listening to us. We know they have listened with great interest and we think we have furthered their understanding of the initiative and its value. We look forward to further discourse in one format to another.

I welcome the proposal and, as a member of the committee, I hope we can discuss it as soon as possible. If there is any leeway, I hope we can avail of the opportunity.

I thank the witnesses on behalf of the committee. They have made a strong case and we will work on it with the Minister. The transcript from today's meeting will be sent to him and we will have a follow-up discussion before sending our recommendations. I have no doubt that some of our colleagues will want to study this.

Sitting suspended at noon and resumed at 12.05 p.m.
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