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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 May 2012

Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council: Discussion with Minister for Education and Skills

Apologies have been received from Deputy John Lyons. As our guests today have arrangements to attend another meeting after this one, I propose the following timetable: from 9.40 a.m. to 10.30 a.m. we will discuss the Council of Ministers business with the Minister, Deputy Quinn; from 10.30 a.m. to 12 p.m. we will discuss the Ombudsman for Children issue with the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills; and from 12 p.m. to 12.15 p.m. we will discuss matters in private session. Our first business today is a briefing on the forthcoming meeting of the European Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council, which will be attended by the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald. The Minister for Education and Skills and his officials are welcome. I apologise for our late start but we will still finish at 10.30 a.m. regardless of what questions come in because we know they must attend the second meeting. They are here to discuss the agenda of the forthcoming Council of Ministers meeting in Brussels on 10 and 11 May 2012.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee. This is the second Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council meeting to be held under the Danish presidency. My remarks have been circulated to the committee. There are two substantive items on the agenda. The first is a discussion on the negotiations towards the next generation of the European education programme, known as Erasmus for All, and the second is the adoption of conclusions on the employability of graduates from education and training. We also understand that under any other business, Luxembourg has indicated it will raise a particular issue about its student grant and loan systems for higher education. Cyprus will also brief the Council on the programme for its upcoming Presidency in the second half of this year.

In regard to the first item on the agenda, most of the Council session will be taken up with discussion on the text of the proposed regulation for a proposed new integrated European programme in education, youth and sport called Erasmus for All. The reason for this title is that Erasmus is perhaps the most commonly known European brand in this space and it embraces and includes other programmes. It will replace the existing programmes in education and youth, the lifelong learning programme and youth in action and will come into effect from 1 January 2014.

As with the existing programme, Erasmus for All will support a number of different activities. The majority of the funding – approximately 65% - will fund learning mobility at various levels of the education system - for example, Erasmus higher education exchanges. The other major component – approximately 26% of funding – will go on facilitating co-operation for innovation and good practices within the EU. The remainder will fund operating grants for agencies, policy reform work and administration.

The Commission is proposing a major increase in funding to approximately €19.1 billion for this programme over the seven years of its operation. This represents an extraordinary 70% increase over the existing programme. The final budget will be subject to budget discussions which are under way centrally in the Council of Finance Ministers under the multi-annual financial framework negotiations. The Danish Presidency's current ambition is to agree a general approach to funding of sectoral areas, including education, by the end of June 2012.

At the upcoming Education Council, the Presidency hopes to agree a partial general approach on the regulation for Erasmus for All. Essentially, this means that it wishes to secure agreement on most of the text, with the exception of the financial elements currently under discussion as part of the multi-annual financial framework. It would also like agreement on how best to proceed with respect to the outstanding issues. The regulation for the new programme will be subject to negotiation and agreement by both Council and European Parliament, through what is called the ordinary legislative procedure, formerly known as co-decision. It is expected that negotiations with the European Parliament to finalise the text will take place during our Presidency.

Our major issues have been reflected in the current draft of the regulation and we have no issues of contention with the current text. With a view to the fact that Ireland will be involved in sensitive discussions which will take place during our Presidency, I propose to adopt a supportive but impartial approach at this Council meeting.

The second item of business at Council will be adoption of conclusions on the employability of graduates from education and training. Council Ministers had a very good engagement at the last Council on tackling youth unemployment. These conclusions have subsequently been negotiated at official level and will be adopted at Council without discussion. The main aims of this conclusions document are to adopt a benchmark to monitor the numbers of young people employed within three years of their graduation, whether from second level or tertiary education and to encourage member states to focus on measures which can contribute to improving outcomes for these young people, including, for example, enhanced co-operation between education and training institutions and employers.

The conclusions set out a Europe-wide target. By 2020, the employment rate for 20-34 year olds with upper secondary or tertiary attainment who have left education in the previous three years and who are not in further education or training should be a minimum of 82%. Europe-wide, the current rate is 76.5%. As measured by CSO quarterly statistics, Ireland's current rate is around 82%. Of course, the Government regards this rate as far too high and is committed to tackling it, including through the range of activation measures currently under way in the context of the Government's action plan for jobs and Pathways to Work initiatives. We have also made the point in our discussions with European partners that we need to be careful that this overall benchmark does not mask important differences between groups of people based on their level of educational attainment in the individual members states.

I thank the Minister for his presentation. Hopefully, it will be a successful Council of Ministers meeting. We welcome the positive message in the Minister's contribution and the proposed increase in funding. He mentioned that the new programme will come into effect from 1 January 2014. I presume that in the meantime, the existing programmes will continue to be funded until that date.

In regard to the EU budget - we know the Commission has proposed in excess of a 7% increase and the type of welcome northern European Governments will give to that demand - I presume the new programme is contingent on the EU budget being finalised and that this figure of €19.1 billion is built into the Commission proposal, which was agreed at Commission level.

In regard to the different headings for expenditure, would it be possible to pursue the idea of the modern languages initiative being funded under one of those categories? As the Minister and members are aware, it was an initiative with small expenditure which was exceptionally successful and it is one I would like to see resumed, if at all possible. The Minister said the remainder will fund operating grants for agencies and policy reform work. I do not know whether such an initiative could come under a heading such as that. The Minister also mentioned facilitating co-operation for innovation. Perhaps the further development of languages at primary level could be regarded as innovation.

The Minister mentioned the item Luxembourg will raise under any other business, namely, its student grant and loan systems. To his knowledge, will it report to the Council about a successful scheme it has or will it seek support for a loan or grant system throughout the EU?

I welcome the Minister and his officials. The increase of 70% in this programme is very significant. I am glad to see it will be introduced during the Irish Presidency, so we may be in a position to influence the administration of it in our favour.

We may have to revisit foreign languages initiative in primary schools. It would be appropriate for the Minister to reconsider the removal of this programme from our primary school system. In view of this initiative, he might look again at that. The mobility of our students and the younger generation seeking work, etc., is now more important than ever. Will the Minister take a positive approach in re-examining that matter?

Deputy Smith raised a number of queries to which I will respond directly in the interest of brevity for all us. The ongoing programme will continue until December 2013 and the new programme will start from there. The budgetary lines are in place. As he rightly anticipated, the increase of 70% is enormous and that must go into the mill. My expectation, subject to confirmation, is that the overall framework of the policy initiative will be maintained but its roll out will be contingent on how much money is made available for it.

The modern languages initiative was a pilot programme which I terminated in the budget. We have had discussions about this before. It had a value of approximately €2.5 million. That money has gone into the numeracy and literacy strategy. To the best of my knowledge, 500 out of the 3,200 primary schools participated in it. It had a lot of support from different people and I have met a number of deputations in regard to it. Education is not a competency of the European Union. Member states have full and complete control over the educational dimension of their domestic policy. The EU has successfully promoted coordination, cooperation and mobility over many years. The Erasmus for All programme is one of those things. The prospect of getting funding for a national curriculum initiative of whatever kind from European funds would be totally in contradiction to that initial decision. It is not like agriculture or other areas. There is funding for mobility programmes but not for domestic language facilities.

We understand the question about Luxembourg is not an item for discussion but that the matter arises as a result of a ruling by the European Court of Justice that has implications for the current loans and grant system in Luxembourg.

In answer to Deputy Fleming's questions on the modern languages initiative, I met the coordinators of the programme and hope to be able to keep the organisation intact and if we are in a position to relaunch it, we will not have lost the core base.

There is a huge issue with unemployment and young people across Europe. When we were in Copenhagen recently, there was a discussion of apprenticeships and the variety of schemes across Europe. Is there a possibility this could be raised by the Minister to get a Europe-wide initiative on apprenticeships and younger people?

I am confused about the conclusion document. The Minister said that by 2020 the target for 34 year olds was 82% employment. The next bullet point states we are already around 82%. The following point states the Government regards this rate as far too high and is committed to tackling it. I am confused about the meaning there; it seems contrary to the previous two points.

I heard what other Deputies said and the Minister's answer to their questions on foreign languages but I ask the Minister to look at St. Patrick's Training College and Mary Immaculate Training College. Both offer teaching training in foreign language teaching. Hibernia College is also looking at this and it could be rolled out on a revenue neutral basis because most training college entrants have foreign language honours in their leaving certificate. This could be built upon and delivered in the primary curriculum. I know Hibernia College would be very interested in rolling this out.

The Higher Education Authority at my request, and on foot of the Hunt report, is looking at the five teacher training colleges. We have looked at international best practice on the provision for educational training of primary and secondary school teachers. Singapore, which has a similar population to ours, has one teacher training institution for both levels. Finland, which frequently gets benchmarked, has eight. The province of Ontario, which is bigger in population and size, with 11 million people, has 13 training centres at both levels. We have 22 institutions, five at primary level, four owned by the Catholic Church and one by the Church of Ireland, which provides training for the reformed churches, and 17 other institutions providing education courses at third level. There are around 40 different courses in education across the system. The duplication is excessive, the cost is wasteful. A landscape paper has been provided by Ms Áine Lawlor and Ms Áine Hyland to enable an international three person panel to look at our infrastructure for educational training provision and to make recommendations. I would hope we would get that report in the autumn. I will be more than happy to discuss it with the committee when it is published.

The point is well made. At primary level, the teachers coming into the system in many cases have done a modern continental language and with the training programme being extended to four years, the capacity might exist to provide teaching and education in a modern European language in the classroom. In that context it might be useful to avail of the support system of the language support group, particularly Ms Tanya Flanagan. I do not want to lose that coordinating expertise but I do not have €2.5 million to spend in the way it was spent previously. It would be possible, however, for schools of a certain size to offer a modern language. I hope that also addresses Deputy Fleming's question.

I apologise to the committee, I did not properly deliver the information in front of me. The rate of unemployment for young people is far too high, that was the reference. In Spain the overall unemployment rate is 25% and I am told in some places it is as high as 50% for young people. It is against that background that these levels of participation in the labour market are recommended; the overall levels of unemployment are far too high and they are skewed towards the young. The people most excluded from the labour market are young people with no skills or poor skills.

We are in flux on apprenticeships with the closing down of FÁS and its replacement with SOLAS. The traditional focus on apprenticeship was overly-dependent on the construction sector. The Commission is producing a document entitled "Rethinking Skills" and I hope during our Presidency to get a discussion going on this topic.

The skills gap in ICT and mathematics is a major issue at every committee meeting on job creation and enterprise. Even the EU's website talks about a major gap of 700,000 in 2015. Can this pot of money help close that gap? The British are not overly impressed with the size of the budget proposed. Do any other member states feel the same? Funding can be drawn down by two Departments. I assume that can be coordinated to ensure there is no duplication. Can the committee be of assistance in that area?

There is a worldwide shortage in ICT skills; that is not peculiar to this country, it is a result of the explosion in demand internationally. It has been compounded by the fact that in Ireland we have service providers and back up technical assistance groups, with a demand for languages. We have a level of language fluency because Ireland had become a very attractive centre for a host of reasons. Companies such as Google are attracting people who are not only fluent in their own language but also a second continental language.

The committee may be aware that there has been a 20% increase in the number of pupils opting to take higher mathematics in the leaving certificate examination in June. This decision was initiated by my predecessor Mary Coughlan when she requested the colleges to consider giving extra points. The CAO system is run by a privately owned company - it is owned by the seven universities - which allows other colleges to participate, but the CAO calls the shots in the allocation of points. It agreed this year to award 25 additional points to those who achieved a certain grade in higher level mathematics. The maximum number of points this year, therefore, will be 625. What we do not know and will not know until the day after the examination is the number who have studied higher level mathematics but will change their minds on the day of the examination and take the lower level paper. However, the indications so far are that the strategy of enhancing the attractiveness of mathematics has worked in that the number opting to take the higher level course is up by 20%. When we know the number who will sit the exam, we will know if the 20% increase has been maintained.

In regard to the increase in the EU budget, as Deputy Brendan Smith said, the sceptical countries are the United Kingdom, Germany, Denmark, the Netherlands, France, Austria and Finland, the ones which are not included in the programmes. The Cypriots are hoping to sign off on the budget in what will be Cyprus' first experience of the Presidency. It is a very small country with a limited administration and it is a big ask for it. We are heading into our seventh Presidency in January 2013 and the general expectation is that it will fall to Ireland to sign off on a number of items. On the budget, I do not know what the outcome will be at this stage. We will certainly try in the education and social area to maximise the level of co-ordination between the domestic Departments involved to maximise the drawdown.

I am aware that the Department had issues with the wording. Has that matter been sorted out?

Yes; I understand it has.

I thank the Minister and his officials for attending. I am glad he is able to leave on time.

Sitting suspended at 10.04 a.m. and resumed at 10.05 a.m.
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