Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, DEFENCE AND EQUALITY (Sub-Committee on Penal Reform) díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Feb 2012

Penal Reform: Discussion

The purpose of today's meeting is to hear presentations on penal reform, including information on international best practice. I welcome from the probation service Mr. Vivian Geiran and Mr. Jimmy Martin, prisons and probation policy and criminal law reform divisions; and from the Irish Prison Service Mr. Kieran O'Dwyer. I thank them for giving of their valuable time to come before the sub-committee.

For the information of sub-committee members, members of the Irish Prison Service, the probation service and the Department are all civil servants of the Minister for Justice and Equality. While I know they are delighted to discuss the implementation of existing policies and the issues being examined, it is not compatible with their position to express personal opinions on matters of ministerial or Government policy, nor can they go into matters which might be viewed as prejudicing future decisions.

Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the sub-committee. If a witness is directed by the sub-committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and he or she continues to so do, he or she is entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they do not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should be aware that under the salient rulings of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Martin from the probation service to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Jimmy Martin

The latest Council of Europe statistics which were published in March 2011 show the number of prisoners in Ireland per 100,000 inhabitants at 88.1 which is below the European median average of 119.4. The figure in Ireland is well below that in countries such as Spain and the United Kingdom which have high figures of approximately 150 per 100,000, slightly below that in countries such as Germany, the Netherlands, France and Italy but above that in Scandinavian countries such as Finland, Denmark and Sweden which have figures such as 67 and 77 per 100,000.

The figures for overcrowding and population density per 100 prison places are not always the most accurate, but they provide a rough idea of circumstances, as they are dependent on the legal regime in place in the various countries. The occupancy rate in Ireland is shown at 97.8% which is approximately the average for European countries. Other countries such as France, Italy and Spain have a much higher density, but Irish prisons are more crowded than those in countries such as the Netherlands, Denmark and Germany. However, there is a rider, as the number of places per prison can influence the figure enormously.

What is remarkable about our prison population is that there was a huge increase between 2006 and 2010, with numbers increasing by approximately 1,000 which represents an increase of more than 30%. This moved us away from being a country with a traditionally very low rate of imprisonment towards the European average and placed a huge strain on the prison system with regard to accommodation standards and the provision of services. The upsurge was aggravated by the fact that conflict between criminal gangs which traditionally did not extend into prisons did so. The number of criminal gangs means it is far more difficult for prison management to keep matters under control. We conducted an internal analysis to establish the cause of this increase and it suggests a significant increase in the number of long-term prisoners. The percentage of prisoners serving shorter sentences, of less than two years, has decreased as a proportion of the total prison population.

Only a small number of persons facing criminal charges receive a prison sentence. In 2010 more than 250,000 people were convicted on criminal charges. These included a substantial number of convictions for road traffic offences. However, only approximately 15,000 people received a prison sentence. While it is difficult to be definitive, the evidence does not suggest judges are now more likely to impose a prison sentence than previously. However, the number of serious cases being dealt with has increased substantially. In 2006 the Circuit Court which deals with more serious indictable offences dealt with approximately 1,000 accused persons in criminal cases. By 2010 this figure had increased to more than 3,000. The indications are that the proportion of cases attracting a prison sentence has not changed significantly. However, because the volume of serious cases has increased, the number of prison sentences has increased, as has the average length of sentences.

Penal policy cannot be viewed in isolation from the overall objectives of the criminal justice system. The Oireachtas determines the range of offences and what sanctions may be applied; the Garda and the Director of Public Prosecutions decide who is prosecuted and diverted away from the criminal justice system; and the courts determine what sanction is to be imposed when a person is convicted. The Irish courts have taken the general line that once a sentence is imposed, the management of the sentence is a matter for the Executive. In practice, this is done by the Irish Prison Service and the Probation Service in line with policy determined by the Minister and the Government. By international standards, Ireland has a flexible system of early release from prison. In many countries exit from prison can occur only in defined circumstances set down in statute or through a system of early release controlled by a quasi-judicial body acting independently of the government. In this state we have provision for temporary release on which the Executive can decide subject to the requirements of the Act.

The Irish Prison Service is responsible for the safe custody of prisoners and providing rehabilitation services for those in custody. Rehabilitation is a difficult and complex subject on which there are many conflicting views. The majority of offenders in prison are young males with little education or employment experience. Frequently they suffer from substance abuse, come from dysfunctional family backgrounds and tend to act impulsively without regard for the consequences. The mainstream services in prison try to address these matters by providing education and work training, as well as addressing substance abuse. More specialised services are also provided, including the sex offenders programme.

The Probation Service is responsible for providing pre-sentence assessment reports on offenders for the courts; supervising offenders on court-ordered probation, including community sanctions under the Children Act 2001; operating the community service scheme; restorative justice projects; risk assessment of sex offenders and, where appropriate, providing services for the post-release supervision and rehabilitation of offenders in the community. The priority in all of these is to reduce reoffending by prioritising higher risk offenders. It is the policy of the Government to ensure violent and other serious offenders serve appropriate prison sentences, while at the same time switching to non-custodial options for non-violent and less serious offenders. In particular, commitments have been made to implement legislation that will reduce imprisonment where fines are imposed and increase the use of community service.

In line with the recommendations of the report of the Thornton Hall project review group, a pilot system has been introduced for the early release of prisoners with a requirement to carry out community service. This is operated jointly by the Irish Prison Service and the Probation Service; we refer to it as "community return" to distinguish it from community service. Community service happens after court, while community return is a form of community service for those about to leave prison. An interdepartmental group is being established to examine the issue of people with a mental illness entering the criminal justice system. We expect the Minister to be able to announce the terms of reference in the next few weeks.

There are also plans to establish a group to carry out a strategic review of penal policy. The Minister has committed to introducing legislation on strengthening the role of the Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention and providing for a more integrated approach between the inspector and the prison visiting committees. He intends to place the parole board on a statutory footing.

In the committee's invitation it asked about sources of international best practice. I am sure the committee is aware of these already, but, in addition to material published by the Department and its agencies and the usual Irish academic sources, the Council of Europe's website includes relevant statistics and recommendations on penal policy. The Ministry of Justice and the Home Office in the United Kingdom commission a great deal of research that is accessible through their websites. I once visited their offices and they had more than 100 full-time researchers. Sometimes we avail of their research.

I thank Mr. Martin for his interesting and comprehensive opening statement. Senator Ivana Bacik will lead with her questions.

I thank Mr. Martin for a comprehensive overview which was prepared at short notice. We appreciate the delegation's attendance. Its help is of great assistance to us in our work.

Directly influenced by the Thornton Hall project review group's report, we are considering back door strategies involving some form of early release programme. In particular, we are interested in the report's recommendation that the Minister introduce a form of earned temporary release programme. As such, we were interested in Mr. Martin's statement that a pilot system had been established, to which he referred as community return, that is, the early release of prisoners with the requirement that they carry out community service. What are the details of the pilot system and how many prisoners are involved? It is in the early days, but what criteria are used in assessing who is suitable for inclusion in such a programme? Mr. Martin has mentioned that, to date, we have had a flexible system - some would say an unstructured system - of early release. This is in contrast with the position in countries in which exit from prison can only occur in defined circumstances set down in statute.

A key concern is whether Ireland should introduce a more structured form of early release on the basis of earned early release. The Probation Service would have a significant role to play in managing such a programme. The Irish Prison Service has already introduced an integrated sentence management system. We would like to hear more about the community return programme and how it fits in with integrated sentence management.

Mr. Jimmy Martin

I shall ask my colleague, Mr. Geiran, who is involved in this area and might be able to supply some details to answer that question.

Mr. Vivian Geiran

Following on from the report on the Thornton Hall project review, with the Irish Prison Service and the Department of Justice and Equality, we quickly set about examining how to introduce a system of earned early release incorporating some form of community service performed by prisoners. In October we launched the community return scheme on a six month pilot basis. However, the pilot scheme has been planned and rolled out on a two phase basis. The initial half ran from October until the end of 2011, while the second phase will run until the end of March. In the initial half between 60 and 70 prisoners left prison on early release under the community return scheme.

Mr. O'Dwyer might wish to say more about how the system operates at the prison end. The Irish Prison Service identifies prisoners who fit certain criteria and who, based on their participation in programmes in prison, their behaviour, the nature of their offences, etc., have been assessed as being suitable and presenting a relatively low risk of reoffending following their release. They are considered at a prison-based review meeting of all of the various disciplines involved in working with prisoners. If an individual is found suitable at this initial stage, he or she is referred for further assessment by the Probation Service, part of which is to assess his or her suitability and willingness to participate in the scheme, and to explain to him or her what is involved if he or she is released early, for example, to undertake work in the community. The availability of appropriate work in the community is also assessed. Once the individual has gone through these phases and assuming everything fits, he or she is released early.

The community return scheme involves swapping prison time for time in the community and paying back through unpaid work. It roughly equates to a week of community work for extra remission of one month. The first 60 or 70 people who have been released under the scheme have proved to be extremely successful in complying with the conditions of their release, for example, in terms of their attendance at work and performance of whatever activities in which they are required to engage. As well as the work element, we try to include whatever other structures or programmes that the individuals need in the community, be it resocialisation in their families or community, attendance at drug programmes, etc. To the end of the year, only one or two prisoners needed to be returned to prison. Overall, there was an extremely high level of co-operation and compliance.

This is a unique initiative internationally, as I am unaware of anything comparable in place elsewhere. I am positive about rolling out the scheme to more prisoners.

In which prisons is it operating?

Mr. Vivian Geiran

It started off in Dublin but was extended incrementally to prisons all over the country during the initial three months. For various reasons, most notably numbers, the majority of early releases have been in the Dublin area, but the pilot scheme has been extended to Cork, Shelton Abbey, Castlerea, the midlands and so on.

Mr. Geiran has been helpful. Are there criteria concerning the length or type of sentence that rule out a prisoner during an assessment? For example, to qualify for extra remission, one needs to have served a certain proportion of one's sentence. As I understand it, the pilot scheme is more flexible.

The Thornton Hall project report mentioned that such a scheme of incentivised early release could provide for electronic tagging or curfew requirements. I take Mr. Geiran's point, in that conditions are already imposed, for example, attendance at drug treatment programmes and so on, but there has been no use of electronic tagging - we do not have this facility - or curfews.

How are the conditions set? Clearly, it is not a court order but an agreement between the prisoner and the Irish Prison Service. I apologise for asking so many questions.

Mr. Vivian Geiran

I should have mentioned that the length of prison sentence that one is required to serve to be eligible for participation in the community return scheme is between one and five years. Prisoners can get out under the scheme as early as the half way point in their sentences as opposed to the three quarters stage, as is the case in the normal remission process. This is not to say everyone gets out at the half way stage, but prisoners become eligible at that point. There is a direct swap between prison time and work done in the community.

I also should have mentioned other reporting conditions will be applied. Individuals sign on at their prison every week and their local Garda station every day. Generally, they perform work in the community three days each week. On the other days, they might be required to engage in other activities. For example, attendance at drug treatment clinics or appointments with training and employment officers in regard to appropriate training, employment or education opportunities.

Mr. Jimmy Martin

The legal basis for this scheme is temporary release, not remission.

Mr. Jimmy Martin

Therefore, the conditions of temporary release are imposed. While the person on temporary release can be returned to prison if he or she breaches those conditions, the procedure in respect of a person on remission is much more complicated. Although we have tested electronic tagging we have not used it as we are not sure it is viable. International experience suggests it can be expensive and does not necessarily enhance rehabilitation. While it provides some insurance to the public it does not necessarily prevent people from committing offences. During a trial of GPS electronic monitoring in the UK, a test subject killed a person. Electronic tagging does not necessarily prevent the commission of crimes. The expectation may be that it stops people from committing crimes but that is not the case.

What type of work are prisoners doing within the community? Also, has there been positive relationship building with agencies on the outside that might support greater roll-out of the programme into the future?

Mr. Jimmy Martin

Mr. Geiran will outline the work which prisoners do. This is a pilot project, in respect of which we are using current facilities and links with agencies in the communities. If we are to expand the programme, we will need to enhance our ability to do so. In Cork, where there is a particular problem in terms of prison overcrowding, consideration is being given to what can be done in the local community area to assist in this regard. There is a great deal of interaction between the Prison Service, Probation Service and local agencies, including NGOs.

Mr. Vivian Geiran

Prisoners involved in the scheme undertake the same type of work as people on court order community service. In many situations, the groups of offenders work side-by-side. We have found that having people coming out of prison working side-by-side with court ordered community service offenders has had a positive impact. The prisoners have been good role models for the people sent by the courts to do community service although there was concern that the opposite might be the case.

The prisoners do work for local community groups, youth clubs and community organisations, which would not otherwise be done, including painting, environmental projects, site cleaning, graffiti removal and so on.

Does the probation service seek out that work? What is the decision making process in terms of project selection?

Mr. Vivian Geiran

We generally source projects through our local connections in various areas around the country. We have established strong links locally with different organisations. During the past year or two, owing to the increase in community service orders and the introduction of community return, we have had to increase our focus on sourcing work projects. For example, in the past two years we have made a particular effort to obtain work in the homeless sector in the Dublin area. This work included renovation, painting and so on work in homeless hostels and shelters. As stated by Mr. Martin, we are assisted by a number of organisations in different parts of the country in accessing work. These organisations either directly provide us with work or put work our way. One of the groups appearing before the committee this afternoon is funded by us in that regard.

It has been stated that the majority of offenders in prison are young males with little education or employment experience, which indicates that society in some way failed these people before they reached the prison system. The issue of substance abuse was also raised. I welcome that an interdepartmental group is to examine the subject of people in the prison service with mental health issues. Perhaps the delegation would elaborate on the type of mental health issues that arise in this regard. It must be challenging for the prison service to support people with mental illness. Perhaps the delegation would give us an overview in that regard.

Mr. Jimmy Martin

On the mental health issue, the percentage of people in prison that suffer from mental illness as compared with the average number of people per head of population suffering with a mental illness is high. This is not too surprising for a number of reasons. People who engage in substance abuse are more prone to mental illness than others. One of the affects of taking mind altering drugs is psychosis. There are a range of different people within the prison system, including people who were in reasonably good mental health when they arrived in prison but who have developed mental illness while there. As such, their mental illness has nothing to do with their offending behaviour but developed either as a result of substance abuse or the prison environment, which can be quite alien for most people.

It is the policy of Government to deinstitutionalise people suffering from mental illness and move them into the community. Where there is a weakness in community services and a person suffers an episode, this is manifested in public disorder. The first response to this is the Garda Síochána. Where a person has killed another person he or she will be arrested and will end up in the criminal justice system, at the end of which process he or she may be found not guilty by reason of insanity and will end up in the Central Mental Hospital. It is appropriate in such a case that the person is arrested and is dealt with by the criminal justice system.

At the other end of the system is the person whose erratic behaviour is directly as a result of a mental illness. The choice for the Garda Síochána is whether to bring such person to court or to involve local community mental health personnel. Much depends on the services that are available. There is a protocol in place which provides for a linkage between the local community mental health service and an inspector in the Garda Síochána in an effort to ensure people are diverted from court. The Garda Síochána is the first port of call in these cases. The second port of call is the courts. In some cases it becomes evident during the court procedure that the person concerned is suffering a mental illness. We have introduced a system in Cloverhill prison, which is a remand system, which links with forensic psychiatrists from the CMH to try to identify people with obvious mental illness, which is the root cause of the criminal behaviour, so as to divert them away from the criminal justice system into the mental health system. This is a relatively recent initiative which has been working successfully.

There are also in the prison system people who may have an underlying mental illness that is not immediately obvious. However, on conviction and committal to prison the mental illness may be aggravated by the prison environment. We had difficulties at one stage as prisons are not equipped to deal with severe mental illness, in the same way as they are not equipped to deal with severe physical illness. We depend on the Central Mental Hospital to take the most serious cases, and there were problems regarding capacity there at one time. We had a long period that caused great distress, as somebody who was severely mentally ill, with concurrent stress for the person and prison staff, could not be placed anywhere until space became available. The regime has changed as there is slightly more capacity in the Central Mental Hospital. That hospital also provides an in-reach service to prisons and the Irish Prison Service is becoming more competent in dealing with these cases.

The ideal situation has not been reached yet but we are getting to a position where people with a mental illness can be managed within the prison, whereas more severe cases would be transferred to the Central Mental Hospital to be treated. Sometimes there are catch-22 cases. We had somebody convicted of murder who suffered from a severe mental illness. The person was transferred to the hospital and responded to treatment but as soon as the person returned to prison, there was a relapse. What can be done with such a person, who is guilty of murder and was not guilty by reason of insanity? In the end, the prisoner was moved to an open prison where conditions were more suitable for the illness. Mr. O'Dwyer may have some comments.

Mr. Kieran O’Dwyer

I have some figures. The HSE Central Mental Hospital in-reach service to Clover Hill now diverts 110 per annum approximately, primarily to community-based services. Approximately 80% of those would be known to community services and have a case history. That is working very well and we are looking at ways to extend this with the HSE. To confirm Mr. Martin's comments, in 2009, the Central Mental Hospital provided an additional ten beds in Dundrum, which eased waiting lists considerably at the time. There are still prisoners on waiting lists to go to the Central Mental Hospital.

Mr. Jimmy Martin

The Chairman asked about society and criminality. The vast majority of people who end up in prison come from socially deprived areas. Any link is a question of speculation, as many people living in socially deprived areas do not become criminals, and those areas tend to have the majority of victims of crime. It is a very complex issue. When assessing risk and indicators, we find that if a person is illiterate, does not have a job and is involved with substance abuse, he or she is much more likely to end up involved with crime. How to address that is complex, as it would involve a range of services provided by the State and family background. Whether the problem can be successfully tackled is beyond our knowledge. There is a link of some kind but what it is and how it can be addressed is very complicated.

It is work for sociologists that is probably ongoing.

Will the witnesses comment on some of the challenges that we may be facing in expanding some of these programmes, such as community return? Is it the case that in considering a suitable release, prisoners are matched with work programmes? Is there a difficulty in getting enough work programmes to meet demand or the numbers of people that would be deemed suitable for those programmes?

Mr. Jimmy Martin

As it is currently a pilot project, there is no real issue as we have sufficient resources to address it. The Minister is quite keen to expand the programme and go beyond the pilot. There is a natural limitation on the number of people suitable for the programme, as some prisoners would be violent or unsafe to release before their prison sentence is finished. Others may not be interested, and although it may sound surprising, some would prefer to hang around serving their sentence rather than getting involved in these activities. There are many factors involved.

There is a natural limit, although we have not yet established what it is. We are exploring the possibilities and as we increase numbers, the question of resources must come into play. This is particularly relevant as we go outside Dublin to more rural areas, as it may be a challenge to find work suitable for a particular prison. There are restrictions on the number of public servants who can be employed so as we progress the scheme we must examine whether more community supervisors can be employed by the Probation Service. There is a requirement to match the work to the individual, and I will ask Mr. Geiran to talk about that. Some prisoners can be quite elderly and they would not be able for physical or manual work. Others may suffer a disability. One must match the location of the prison with the prisoner and the work in an area in gauging suitability.

Mr. Vivian Geiran

I agree with Mr. Martin's comments on matching prisoners with work. The work and environment is important, and we often find that offenders would have a very good experience of doing community service work and would be able to make a very valuable contribution to the community, not just because of the nature of the work being done but the environment in which they do it and the extent to which they can interact with the local community and work with others as a team, for example. They can feel they are making a valuable contribution and paying something back to society.

Having said that, where possible we try to match people with appropriate work. To an extent, we must try not to put people in inappropriate work placements. A percentage of the people on community service or community return would have individual placements organised. Most of the work arrangements are for groups, with a community service supervisor for a group of offenders undertaking a task. Sometimes we are able to organise individual placements in organisations. From memory, I recall somebody being able to work on their own under the supervision of a voluntary organisation providing meals on wheels for the elderly. That is not a placement for everybody on community service. Some people are suitable for individual placements with less intensive supervision, although some people need more supervision. It is partly about work and partly about environment, contribution and the value that people can add to the community. That makes it worthwhile.

I know it is a pilot project but with regard to expansion, resources and personnel would be key.

Mr. Vivian Geiran

Yes, and as Mr. Martin has correctly noted, we have not had a real problem there so far with the initial phases of the pilot. People coming out on community return are spending much more time on community service than people ordered there by the courts, as they are at the more serious end of the scale. In some parts of the country we would have more capacity but we would have less capacity elsewhere. As the pilot continues we must keep resources under review.

The costs may be €8,000 or €9,000 per week to have somebody in prison. Is that correct?

Mr. Jimmy Martin

In calculating costs for a prisoner, the total costs of running a prison is divided by the number of prisoners. As a result the average cost has become much smaller over recent years because we put more prisoners into the system. The costs that are specific to an individual prisoner are relatively small. The current cost is approximately €70,000 per year for a prisoner in a medium security prison. However, if we take out ten prisoners, we will not save €700,000 because much of it is fixed costs and labour costs. The saving is that we would have to buy less milk, food and such things. One must be careful about equating not sending somebody to prison with a saving of €70,000. That is not necessarily true. However, we do make savings. Obviously, if we managed to keep 500 people out of prison, that equates to a prison so we could close down a prison and make significant savings with that. It is a complicated matter.

Community service is relatively cost effective in the sense that there is the cost of the community service supervisor, administration costs and a few material costs, but they are not very significant. Vivian Gieran can discuss that.

Mr. Vivian Geiran

On the cost of community service, the figures I have are a couple of years old and, for similar reasons regarding the prison numbers, we have more economies of scale because there are now more people doing community service. However, even a couple of years ago we calculated the average cost to us of implementing a community service order was €2,400 per order. The cost of carrying out an assessment for community service if the case was adjourned was €244. More recently, we have introduced same day assessments in the courts for community service in certain cases and they are €55 each. The total cost therefore is €55 or €244 as well as an average of €2,400 per order for community service. That cost has probably gone down for the various reasons outlined.

Would time duration be a factor with some orders?

Mr. Vivian Geiran

Yes, it would. Court ordered community service can be between 40 and 240 hours. We worked out an average over the year for the average community service order.

Do people with community service orders get some form of payment or stipend?

Mr. Vivian Geiran

No, there is no payment.

How are people who are homeless when they leave prison supported?

Mr. Kieran O’Dwyer

I will respond to that, if I may. I was going to intervene earlier to point out at these schemes are not magic bullets due to the complexity of the needs which you mentioned earlier, Chairman. Whether it is a combination of things, employment, training, education or simply the chaotic lifestyles they have or their dependencies, all of these need to be addressed in the context of temporary release, community return or whatever it might be. That is a huge challenge.

The Irish Prison Service and the probation service work closely in trying to address those issues for prisoners in terms of finding local accommodation in hostels or emergency accommodation. A very high proportion of prisoners come into the system with accommodation difficulties and it is nearly worse when they are heading back out. It is a concrete and immediate need. If one does not have accommodation and employment, it is a recipe for recidivism and other trouble down the line. If we are to be successful in our attempts at resettlement, all of these issues must be addressed as part of a package.

You have identified that as an important issue, that is, somebody who comes out of prison and does not have a job, has no place to live and who might have other issues, and the supports they require to support them in not falling back into crime and being returned to prison. On the payment issue, if somebody is working for three days per week and they are signing on at the Garda station as well, are they on jobseeker's allowance?

Mr. Vivian Geiran

They would be on jobseeker's allowance or benefit. The fact that they are doing community service does not interfere with their social welfare payment, and this has been the case since the origin of community service in 1985. If somebody got a job while they were on either community service or community return, we would, and do, make appropriate arrangements. We certainly would not stop somebody taking up a job or a training place. In fact, we would encourage it.

Mr. Martin mentioned in his introduction that Finland, Denmark and Sweden have low rates of incarceration. Why is that?

Mr. Jimmy Martin

That is a very good question and I do not have a straight answer. It is partly cultural. They tend to impose very low sentences. When I was dealing with rape legislation I looked at the average sentences in Sweden and in Ireland. The average sentence in Ireland would be at least twice as high as the average in Sweden. They tend to go for low sentences. They also have many institutional supports. If one looks at statistics for youth crime in Sweden, for example, they appear to be extraordinarily low, but that is because a person under 16 years of age does not go into the criminal justice system. However, there are many people in homes and so forth.

Some of their issues are different from ours. Alcohol related issues are very strong in these countries, so the make-up of the prison population can be different.

What do you mean by alcohol-related issues?

Mr. Jimmy Martin

It is not unusual for a person convicted of drink driving in a Scandinavian country to go to jail. They have stricter regimes than ours. However, one tends to deal with a different type of person.

Finland went out of its way to reduce its prison population. It made a policy decision to reduce the number of people it would imprison and introduced a number of measures. Why a country has a high prison population is a choice in some cases. The United States has a very pro-imprisonment policy. In Europe, Spain and the UK have a high rate of 150 per 100,000 persons but in the US it is 700 per 100,000 persons. That was a policy decision. In other cases, it can be cultural or due to many other factors.

As I said, it is partly cultural and partly that there are many more supports in the community than, perhaps, in this country. I cannot give you a good scientific answer, and I have not heard one from anybody.

If somebody finds the answers, we will be doing well.

The socio-economic circumstances would be different in those countries.

Mr. Jimmy Martin

Yes, they would be different. However, I was once asked by a Finnish colleague about our murder rate. He said their murder rate was much higher than ours and I asked him why. It turned out their murders tended to occur at queues for taxis. Finland does not have late night buses and one cannot hail a taxi. One must queue for one. When they all go out drinking the fights tend to be in the queues. We have similar murders but they appear to have a higher number, that is, where people have been drinking on a Saturday night and so forth. They also had a higher rate because they have greater access to firearms. Instead of beating up the wife, therefore, they might shoot the wife and then shoot themselves.

However, it is correct that they have many more social supports. Their economy and society are different from ours so one is not necessarily comparing like with like. It is very complicated.

I have a final question. I have found this discussion very helpful and I thank the witnesses. However, I will return to Mr. Martin's point about the legal basis for the temporary release. Is the Criminal Justice (Temporary Release of Prisoners) Act 2003, which amends the 1960 Act, sufficient to expand the programme of community return or the idea of incentivised release or would another legislative basis be necessary? I do not know if Mr. Martin can comment on that. Is there a sufficient legislative basis at present to run this programme?

Mr. Jimmy Martin

Yes. The recommendation from the Council of Europe about early release favours what it calls conditional early release. We have two systems, one of which is remission. Once one is released on remission, it is unconditional and the sentence is finished. We use temporary release as a form of conditional release and it is a flexible system. It is easy to get people out and get them back in. To some degree, it is an administrative system. We tend to let people out on extended renewable temporary relief of a week or a month. There is no legal issue about ending the release. We are quite happy with the system.

The UK changed the system of remission from one third remission to a 50% conditional release. As it is a statutory system, it tends to be inflexible and, effectively, every prisoner in the UK is released on conditional release after serving half of the sentence. Prisoners can be called back but it requires a complicated procedure. Temporary release is flexible because we can impose conditions. It is easier because, if we encounter an obstacle, we can rapidly change the community return system. We set guidelines that the Minister approves. These are the structures in which we operate the pilot system. There may be something to be said for having a more structured system once we work everything out. Introducing this through primary legislation can be restrictive because it reduces flexibility.

Mr. Martin mentions that a group is being established to give a view on penal policy. When will that be established?

Mr. Jimmy Martin

I understand that might be quite soon, in the next month or two, but I cannot give an indication when it might happen.

Mr. Kieran O’Dwyer

Senator Bacik asked me about temporary release at the beginning. It is used for the vast majority of prisoners and only prisoners of a violent disposition or those serving sentences for a particularly heinous crimes serve until the last day. Temporary release can range from a day or two to a programme of weekend releases in open centres and early release. Not all prisoners will be on community return but we have other conditions that we can impose, such as participation in addiction programmes and curfews.

Is there day release, where people can go back at night?

Mr. Kieran O’Dwyer

There is day release from the training unit and the open centres. These people do work in the community or a training course and come back into custody in the evening. We want to move towards earning a temporary release by dint of what they do in prison, such as engaging in sentence planning, structural activities such as work training and education, or other programmes to address offending behaviour. We have specific programmes for violent offenders and sex offenders. They must earn temporary release by good behaviour and engagement with the services in the prison. Community return applies to those who are serving one year or more, which coincides with the integrated sentence management model. We are looking at options for those serving shorter sentence. We would not like to overlook them and particular measures can be taken.

How many sex offenders are in prison?

Mr. Kieran O’Dwyer

Between 325 and 330 are in custody, most of whom are in Arbour Hill, Wheatfield and the Midlands Prison. We operate the sex offenders programme in Arbour Hill. Our system assesses them in the prisons and works to bring them to Arbour Hill at some stage so that they can undergo the programme and return to the original prison on completion. We introduced a new programme in 2009, which processes higher numbers than the previous programme.

Is there a measurement of how effective the programmes are?

Mr. Kieran O’Dwyer

Ongoing research is examining it. It is early days and we do not have a control group we can measure against because we try to get as many through as possible. It is based on international best practice and is modelled on programmes in Canada, where there is evidence that supports the programme's effectiveness. It fits with psychological theories and we take comfort from that but we do not have hard evidence yet.

How many people end up in prison because they do not pay fines after the legislation was passed to reduce imprisonment for unpaid fines?

Mr. Jimmy Martin

On any one day, there are only 50 or 60 in prison. Their sentences are very short and the big issue is the number committed to prison. It could be 7,000. The numbers increased because the Garda Síochána has become more active in chasing down warrants. A judge used to imposed the fine and the automatic default for non-payment was imprisonment. The Garda Síochána became more active in enforcing outstanding warrants. Also, people heard that if they did not pay the fine, they would go to prison and get out the next day. The volume of people going to prison for non-payment of fines increased dramatically. They do not spend very long in prison so the number in prison on any given day is not very high but it creates administrative issues. It is expensive as it involves Garda time. Legislation was introduced so that a fine would not be imposed unless the person could afford to pay it. The only people who can go to prison are those who refuse to pay it, not those who cannot pay it. We are trying to move away from the default position of imprisonment. The Fines Act allows us to appoint a receiver and if that does not work, the option is community service or imprisonment.

We are considering attachment of earnings as an option. There were difficulties in implementation because it required a change to the computer system of the Courts Service. The money has been provided and has now been implemented. There is the odd person who refuses to pay but we hope the threat of seizure of goods will increase the number of people who pay fines. The judge can only impose a fine that can be paid, which eliminates the situation where people do not pay because they have no money. We do not approve of anyone going to jail because they cannot afford to pay the fine.

Will the attachment orders require legislation?

Mr. Jimmy Martin

Yes.

Will the Fines Act be implemented soon?

Mr. Jimmy Martin

As soon as the Courts Service has adjusted its computers, we will provide a commencement order that will bring it into effect. I know money has been provided in this year's budget to adjust the computer system but I do not know how long it will take.

How many people were processed every year?

Mr. Jimmy Martin

Over 100,000 people received fines and some 7,000-----

The figure for 2011 is 7,000.

Mr. Jimmy Martin

I do not have the figures before me but that sounds about right.

The hope is that this will reduce substantially.

Mr. Jimmy Martin

It will be almost eliminated.

It will take pressure off the prison service.

Mr. Jimmy Martin

The pressure is caused by the fact that they must be admitted into prisons before they can be released.

I thank the witnesses for their attendance and their information. It was extremely helpful and informative.

Sitting suspended at 10.30 a.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
Barr
Roinn