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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, DEFENCE AND EQUALITY díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 9 May 2012

Mediation Bill 2012: Discussion

The purpose of this meeting is to have discussions with some of those who have made written submissions on the heads of the Mediation Bill. Each group will be called upon as follows: the Centre for Effective Dispute Resolution in Ireland, the Dublin Solicitors Bar Association, Family Mediation Ireland, the Irish Commercial Mediation Association, the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators and Mediate Ireland.

Before we begin I ask everybody to turn off mobile phones as they interfere with our sound system. Unfortunately, silent mode is not sufficient and I ask that mobile phones be turned off completely.

On behalf of the committee I welcome: Mr. Greg Hunt and Ms Nicola White from the Centre for Effective Dispute Resolution in Ireland; Mr. Eoin Cullina and Ms Caroline Holmes from Family Mediation Ireland; Ms Geraldine Kelly, Mr. John Glynn, Mr. William Aylmer and Ms Josepha Madigan from the Dublin Solicitors Bar Association; Mr. Austin Kenny, Ms Helen Kilroy and Mr. David Nolan, SC, from the Irish Commercial Mediation Association; Mr. Pat Brady, Mr. Bill Holohan and Ms Anne-Marie Blaney from the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators; and Mr. Mark Small and Ms Mary O'Dwyer, BL, from Mediate Ireland. You are all very welcome. I thank you all for your attendance at today's meeting and for the information you have supplied to the committee. It is of great assistance to us in our work in the Oireachtas.

In terms of the format for today's meeting, each organisation will be asked to make brief opening remarks of approximately five minutes which will be followed by a question and answer session. We will have one-on-one engagement in that one member of the committee will engage with one group.

Before we begin, I draw the attention of witnesses to the position on privilege. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should be aware that under the salient rules of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call Mr. Greg Hunt from the Centre for Effective Dispute Resolution in Ireland to make his opening statement.

Mr. Greg Hunt

I thank the Chairman of the committee for inviting CEDR Ireland to take part in this meeting. My name is Greg Hunt and I am director of CEDR Ireland as well as being a member of the Irish Commercial Mediation Association, ICMA, Council and a member of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators. I point out that both this opening statement and our responses to the heads of the Bill are the views solely of CEDR Ireland and independent of the views of both the ICMA and the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators. I am pleased to be joined by my colleague, Nicola White, who is the practice manager of CEDR Ireland.

We commend the Minister, Deputy Shatter, on introducing the Bill and we firmly believe that, if and when implemented, such legislation will dramatically increase access to justice for citizens. We believe also it will serve to promote Ireland as an international centre for dispute resolution.

We have a number of concerns about certain heads of the Bill which I will summarise quickly. In head 2, a mediator is defined as "a person who assists parties to reach a voluntary agreement to resolve their dispute whilst acting at all times in accordance with the principles of impartiality, integrity, fairness and confidentiality, with respect for all parties involved in the mediation". We have concerns around the use of the terms "integrity" and "fairness" in this context. We are concerned to have these terms in statute because what would be meant by "fairness" and "integrity" is often arguable and we believe such terms could potentially create unnecessary satellite litigation. That concern also extends to head 7.

Head 4 deals with the duty on a solicitor to provide information and advice on mediation. We welcome the provision in head 4 as we believe it will promote early dispute resolution. However, regarding head 4(2)(a), which provides for a written statement, we believe a person should also have to include in the written statement his or her reasons for not attempting mediation prior to litigation. We suggest that would be beneficial in assisting the courts in two ways: first, in deciding whether to adjourn proceedings for the parties to consider mediation where the reasons stated for not attempting mediation prior to litigation are, in the court's opinion, unreasonable, and second, in deciding whether to impose a cost sanction for an unreasonable refusal to consider mediation pursuant to head 17. We believe such a requirement in the written statement would place a stronger obligation on the parties to give real consideration to mediation prior to the commencement of litigation.

Head 6.4 of the Bill states: "Where a mediator proposes to withdraw from a mediation process, he or she shall give reasons to the parties for his or her withdrawal." We have serious concerns regarding that provision. We believe that, as is the practice in most jurisdictions and as per the Law Reform Commission's recommendations in its final report on alternative dispute resolution, ADR, mediators should not have to give reasons to the parties for their withdrawal. There is no benefit to be achieved by a mediator disclosing reasons for their withdrawal.

Head 9 is on the code of practice for mediators. We firmly believe that if the Bill is passed, the Minister must prepare and publish or approve a code of practice as there is a danger the mediation movement could be derailed by a loss of consumer confidence if quality assurance mechanisms are not introduced to ensure clients are protected from incompetent mediators.

Head 10, which states that mediation communications are to be confidential, does not adequately protect mediators from being called as witnesses. In England and Wales there has been an increase in satellite litigation concerning confidentiality and mediation in cases where all parties have waived the confidentiality of the mediation and the mediator was still called as a witness. We suggest head 10 should be amended to provide statutory protection for mediators against being called as a witness in subsequent legal proceedings unless it is overwhelmingly in the interests of justice that the mediator give evidence.

We welcome the provision in head 14 on effective mediation on limitation and prescription periods. However, we believe the terms of the head are vague on when the clock stops at the start of the mediation. The head states the period beginning on the day on which the dispute is referred to a mediation process is the day when the suspension of the limitation period will commence. There are many definitions for when a mediation begins and further clarity is required in that regard.

Head 19 is on liability for civil damages. We have concerns about the explanatory note accompanying this head which states the mediator will be performing a quasi-judicial function and therefore should have protection from civil liability. We do not agree that mediators perform a quasi-judicial function.

The Mediation Bill is a significant step in the promotion and development of dispute resolution in Ireland and provides a real opportunity to enhance access to justice for citizens. We thank the Chairman of the committee for inviting us to give our views today and look forward to our continuing involvement.

I thank Mr. Hunt for being precise and brief. I call on Ms Geraldine Kelly from the Dublin Solicitors Bar Association to make her opening statement.

Ms Geraldine Kelly

The Dublin Solicitors Bar Association, DSBA, welcomes the publication of the general scheme of the Mediation Bill 2012 and is grateful for the opportunity to address the joint committee on this important proposal for legislation. The DSBA has represented Dublin solicitors since its foundation in 1936. It is the largest Bar association in the State, having more than 3,000 members.

Conflict is an everyday reality of the human condition. Most conflict between people is resolved by them without outside intervention. Unresolved human conflict results in disputes which can arise in every forum, from childish rows in the school playground to war between nations.

We are fortunate in Ireland to have an effective and highly respected civil justice system. The practice of mediation is not new here but is one of the most effective and valued non-judgmental methods of dispute resolution. Its integration into the civil justice system through primary legislation is an important and welcome step forward.

The DSBA is particularly pleased that consistent with the concept of mediation as understood by most European Union member states, the United States and other jurisdictions, the proposed legislation will put its core principles of voluntariness, confidentiality, self-determination, impartiality and flexibility on a sound statutory footing and will implement important recommendations made by the Law Reform Commission in November 2010. The Dublin Solicitors Bar Association has long promoted the use of mediation for civil and commercial dispute resolution. Our members participate in mediation every day as legal advisers to and advocates for clients in mediation, mediators and, on occasion, parties. Since January 2004, our members have represented parties in most of the disputes before the commercial list of the High Court which have been referred to and settled following mediation.

Many DSBA members are already certified or practitioner members of the Mediators Institute of Ireland, MII. Some years ago, the DSBA established its own panel of family lawyer mediators comprising 46 resolution trained and accredited family law solicitor and barrister mediators whose professional training is recognised by the MII and who are regularly appointed to mediate separating couples' and other family law disputes. One of this group of 46 is an elected member of the council of the Mediators Institute of Ireland.

The DSBA is proud to be one of the principal sponsors of the successful mediation training film, "Talk is Cheap: Commercial Mediation in Ireland", produced in November 2011 and released by the Irish Commercial Mediation Association, ICMA. Many of our members are also members of the ICMA and one of our council members is a founding member who co-ordinated that association's submission on the Law Reform Commission's consultation paper on alternative dispute resolution in November 2008. In March 2012, the DSBA hosted a continuing professional development seminar for members to view the training film and hear presentations from speakers on the various roles of the mediator, the parties and their representatives in mediation. The association also collaborated with the Law Society of Ireland's continuing professional development Skillnet programme in June 2011 to produce and deliver a two-day training course for solicitors in advising and representing their clients in mediation.

Key ingredients in successful mediation are the skill and competence of the mediator. Equally, a mediator who lacks the requisite levels of skill and competence as a mediator is unlikely to facilitate a successful outcome and may even cause a dispute to escalate. The proposed legislation usefully provides that mediators must provide certain minimum information about their qualifications and that the Minister may publish or approve codes of conduct for mediators. The DSBA urges the joint committee to ensure a code of conduct for mediators is prepared and published with the Bill and, in particular, to ensure uniform complaints and disciplinary procedures are adopted for mediators, as recommended by the Law Reform Commission.

The DSBA welcomes the extension of the statutory duties regarding mediation on legal advisers before issuing proceedings in all civil and commercial disputes, provided this is simple, cost effective and straightforward. While mediation is not new, it is still unfamiliar to the general public and although the process remains voluntary, it may be difficult for parties to decide to refer disputes to mediation if they do not fully understand the process. For this reason, further consideration should be given to the extent of the information available about mediation and when and by whom it should be given to parties in dispute. This is particularly so in view of the proposal that the courts will have power to direct parties to attend mediation information sessions on first application after they have issued proceedings.

Confidentiality is one of the core principles of mediation. The DSBA notes the proposal not to adopt the Law Reform Commission's recommendation that a mediator as well as the parties be entitled to withdraw without explanation. The general scheme does not provide the policy reasons that it is considered inappropriate to permit a mediator to withdraw without giving reasons to the parties. The DSBA is concerned that such obligation on a mediator is inconsistent with the confidentiality principle and would seriously undermine the integrity of the process and stated aim of the proposed legislation to facilitate the early and cost effective resolution of civil disputes.

Given the rate of participation of State parties in litigation before the courts, the commitments given in recent programmes for Government and statements made in the Report of the Special Group on Public Service Numbers and Expenditure Programmes published in July 2009 and the high cost of litigation generally in Ireland, the DSBA submits that consideration be given to introducing statutory requirements that all State contracts contain an alternative dispute resolution clause and that all State parties will not unreasonably refuse any offer made to refer a dispute to mediation before issuing or defending proceedings in any matter or claim to which they are party.

The DSBA has many constructive suggestions which would be helpful in advancing the legislation. Many of the Bill's provisions should be addressed carefully and in tandem with the legal services Bill. I thank the Chairman and members for giving us an opportunity to contribute to this discussion and for listening to our suggestions. The DSBA is available at any time to discuss and provide assistance in any aspects of the Bill.

I thank Ms Kelly and invite a representative of Family Mediation Ireland to make an opening statement.

Mr. Eoin Cullina

I planned to make some opening remarks in Irish. However, given that several colleagues are from other jurisdictions, I will address the joint committee in English.

Family Mediation Ireland's position on the Bill is grounded in the perspective of family mediation. While we are conscious that the draft heads of the Bill are general and relate to all mediation, the experience from which we speak is one of working with couples and families who are experiencing separation or dispute. In this regard, we have one or two key observations on the draft heads.

On the mandatory mediation information sessions that were suggested in the context of family mediation in the Law Reform Commission report to which previous speakers referred, it is our strong submission that such sessions should be included in an amendment of the heads. We are guided by our colleagues in the United Kingdom and other jurisdictions where couples who seek to go through the family dispute process are obliged to attend information sessions. They are not forced to attend or participate in mediation but merely required to attend an information session.

The greatest difficulty facing all of us who work as mediators is the low level of public awareness of what mediation means. We must consider, from the family context, the position in which the nation finds itself. The country is in immense financial difficulty and we know disputes have a snowball effect in terms of public expenditure and the personal finances of families. It is our belief that if families are given an opportunity to avail of an information session, they will elect to do so. This option will deliver better outcomes for families.

We speak of this issue from personal experience. More than 90% of information sessions provided by Family Mediation Ireland convert directly into mediation. When people are provided with information we assume they are opting to go down the mediation route, a decision that will have significant benefits for their personal finances. One must also take account of the ripple effect of opting for mediation on the coffers of the State, for example, in respect of the citizens information service and other bodies funded by the State to assist people who have experienced disputes or the breakdown of a relationship. The potential cost savings of mediation are substantial.

We concur with previous speakers on the requirement that mediators should not be called as witnesses. Save for extreme circumstances, for example, in the case of negligence on the part of a mediator, mediators should not come before the courts in any capacity. Mediation works for our service for the simple reason that people trust that when they come into the room, anything they say, within reason, will be treated with a veil of confidentiality. This provides great support and comfort and must be reflected in the heads of the Bill. We suggest that amendments be made to reflect this position.

On the individual submissions that have been made, I do not propose to go through the heads of the Bill individually. However, I will outline the following general points in respect of the legislation. The Department should require that solicitors and barristers of prospective litigants provide certification in seeking to issue their proceedings. If I turn up at a courthouse seeking to launch legal proceedings against anyone, but especially in a family context, I should provide certification that I have attended an information session.

The Department should issue certificates to mediators who are deemed suitably qualified to provide mandatory mediation information sessions. While this course of action may be best reserved for the proposed code of practice, it could also be considered in the main body of legislation. Pursuant to the proposed code of practice, mediators could be licensed by the Department. We suggest, as will others who appear before the joint committee, that a mechanism for providing for a national list of suitably qualified mediators be worked into the legislation. No such structure is suggested in the heads of the Bill.

If mediators are working in conjunction with the courts in any capacity or dealing with couples who are working through the courts system, they should have a minimum level of legal training or knowledge of the courts system. This is not the case at present in terms of the broad church of mediation in this country. Insertions have also been made in respect of the training relationships and the further training required for people who are working as mediators privately or in the service of the State. The Bill provides a wonderful opportunity to set down in stone clear regulation in that regard. This is extremely important for us, as mediators, because bad mediators would do a dreadful disservice to our profession. Accordingly, better legislation and regulation is required. This purpose is best served through the Mediators' Institute of Ireland, which should, where possible through the code of practice, be established as a national body that would be in a position to certify training bodies and set down best standards as to how mediation should operate. There are other incentives which potentially could be available to the Oireachtas. For example, citizens are allowed to take back certain moneys from their taxes in respect of refuse charges or medical bills. If the State is prepared to afford this to citizens, why would it not go so far as to have consolidated taxes legislation to allow people to subvent or allow some degree of reduction on their spend towards mediation? If the State were to invest in the mediation process, this ripple effect would save money for the State and the parties alike further down the line.

It is our view that the multi-unit developments legislation, which has previously come before the Houses, is flawed and that the new Bill, if enacted, should rectify any difficulties that arise from it, especially in respect of reporting to a court. As stated, it is our view that this should not happen under any circumstances save extreme circumstances.

That concludes my submission in respect of the points that have been raised. If we were to ask for only one point to be taken on board today, it would be the requirement that couples who go through family proceedings should attend a mandatory information session and receive certification as to having attended, and this should be presented to the courts before people are allowed to take legal proceedings.

I thank Mr. Cullina for an interesting presentation. I invite the Irish Commercial Mediation Association to make an opening statement.

Mr. Austin Kenny

The Irish Commercial Mediation Association, formed in 2003, is an organisation that operates solely for the purpose of growing the awareness of and use of mediation. It is a voluntary, non-profit organisation and over the years we have worked closely with many other organisations in mediation, including some mentioned previously.

Two of the key pieces of work we believe we have done in the past ten years are, first, a survey in regard to the use of commercial mediation, on which my presentation is clearly focused, and, second, a short film we produced recently, which is very much an education tool. We believe anybody who has an interest in mediation, whether members of the committee, parties setting out into litigation or advisers, would benefit from watching this short film. It is easy to watch, is in a modern, drama-documentary style, and is there for all to see on our website.

We undertook a survey in 2009 from which we learned a great deal. The survey was of approximately 5,000 professional firms throughout the country, which we believed to be the best source on mediation. From that survey, we learned that almost 50% of participants saw mediation as the preferred route to dispute resolution. We realised the mediation that was taking place at that point in time was highly successful, with a success rate in excess of 70%, so it is a good space in which to be.

The reasons mediation is successful and is sought after can be synopsised into three points: first, it saves money for the parties; second, it saves the time and stress for the parties that comes with litigation; and third, it saves important business relationships. This is central to many of our discussions around the flexibility mediation as a process offers. We must get home this point that the flexibility offered by mediation is important.

Equipped with this information, we considered the key objective of the enactment of this Bill of creating a wider use of mediation across the community, whether it be family, business or other mediation. To achieve this, the Bill needs to be embraced, in the first instance, by what we consider the principle gatekeepers of mediation, namely, the legal community, so it is important that Bills and Acts are drafted in such a way. The second group is the users, which from our point of view is the business community, including the public sector and Government as well as private business and so forth.

The approach we take to this is very important. The sledgehammer approach through tough legislation will not work with mediation. We have heard it said throughout Europe that we should have statute-encouraged or court-encouraged mediation, and it is important to keep that philosophy in mind. If we do that, we have a better chance of protecting in legislation what we consider to be the core values of mediation. Those core values, some of which will be discussed today, include, first, the voluntary nature and, second, the confidentiality of mediation. We want to make a strong point on the need to protect confidentiality in order that the parties, whether family, community, workplace or commercial, when sitting in a room, know they are in a confidential place where the mediator can work with them to glean information in a confidential manner - confidential as between the parties as well as the fact it is a confidential process - in order to get traction to move them closer to resolving the dispute. That is very important.

The third value is self-determination. Anything contained in this legislation has to be about providing the parties with their own opportunity to resolve their dispute. The critical point, as we all know, is that the best people to resolve a dispute are the parties themselves, no matter what. If they cannot achieve that, the next step is for a mediator to facilitate or work with them to achieve it. The next steps are litigation or arbitration, which have their own difficulties, as we know.

The fourth core value is the capacity to allow flexible outcomes. We have heard from judges that courts can only rule on what they see before them. We want mediation in place to allow the flexibility for parties to create their own answers, which is particularly important in difficult economic times.

The last point concerns the profession of mediation and how the mediation resource can evolve in this country through firms and organisations that will deliver back and serve this legislation when it comes to pass. We need to have appropriately qualified and regulated mediators and we need a code of ethics and practice so everybody understands the work a mediator does. While we want professionalism from mediators, as has been alluded to, we would like to have walk-away status for the mediator. That is unusual when one is talking about a profession in that we expect a professional to stand up and be accountable for the advice he or she has given. A mediator does not give advice; it is not an advisory capacity. Therefore, we do not need to start applying restrictions on the mediator or to put the mediator in a position that does anything other than facilitate the work of the mediator between the parties. The objective of the exercise is to get the parties to come to their own solution.

We have proposed a number of changes to the legislation, although I do not propose to go through them all as I am sure we will have plenty of time for discussion. Within those, we would like to see mediation described as a structured process, which it is, although it sometimes does not have that name or tag. With regard to lawyers coming forward and presenting to courts, we would like to see this opened up more in order that it is not just at the outset of litigation but can be considered at all stages. With regard to confidentiality and the work of the mediator, we do not like the sense that the mediator would be seen to be giving legal advice or even assessing whether a party has a capacity to be in mediation. There are a number of other points but I will not go over my time. I thank members for their attention.

Thank you for a very interesting presentation. I call the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators to make a presentation.

Mr. Pat Brady

I thank the committee for inviting us. I am Mr. Pat Brady, chairman of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators in Ireland. The chartered institute is a worldwide body and the largest of its kind solely dedicated to alternative dispute resolution, ADR, including here in Ireland. We represent arbitrators, mediators, adjudicators and other ADR professionals. We train mediators, mainly workplace and commercial mediators, to an international standard. We have an independent code of conduct and I take issue with some earlier comments made about confining the representation of arbitrators to another organisation. We, too, have outlined our comments on the Bill, which in general we welcome, and we will be happy to answer any questions.

I thought it might be helpful to the committee to make some general comments on alternative dispute resolution, ADR, which might provide context and also indicate the opportunity represented by this Bill. ADR has a long tradition, some would say dating back to Solomon. The Romans had an arbitration system. Chaucer refers to a mediator in The Canterbury Tales, appropriately named Prudence, and some say the first arbitration board in history, the Ouzel Galley Society, was set up in Dublin in 1705.

Surveying the current landscape, there is increasing acceptance of the potential of ADR as a means of providing effective, quick and cheap solutions to problems arising in business, in the workplace and elsewhere. One should bear in mind that this legislation was in the programme for Government and in the programme of the previous Government under the heading of reducing legal costs.

Looking briefly at some recent and imminent developments, in 2010, the new Arbitration Act strengthened the power of the arbitrator and, therefore, of arbitration, and limited the extent of court intervention and supervision. The Construction Contracts Bill 2010, which is on Second Stage in the Dáil, aims to provide rapid binding, if interim, solutions to disputes arising in the construction sector. Both parts of the island have also transposed the EU directive on transnational mediation. Somewhat outside this process, the Government is radically overhauling the disputes resolution machinery on employment rights where it introduced a mediation stage which is known as early resolution. In the context of EU developments, it is also worth noting that, by January 2015, two further measures are proposed to give consumers access to alternative dispute resolution vehicles in the case of complaints, one of which is specifically related to online purchases.

My colleague, Mr. Bill Holohan, produced a document on ADR in Ireland, a copy of which we will leave for the benefit of the committee and which gives an overview of the current position. The point is there is a recognition in all these initiatives that traditional legal remedies are insufficiently effective, either because they are too cumbersome or too costly. The European Union reckons unresolved customer complaints cost 0.4% of Union GDP. While the Oireachtas committee understandably must address the detail in the Bill, and we will turn to that briefly, we have concerns that the great potential represented by the ADR movement may fail to realise its potential for the want of public awareness of its availability. Part of our mission as an institute is to promote alternative dispute resolution, and in a series of meetings with a wide cross-section of business, trade unions and others, the overwhelming reaction to the idea of effective ADR clauses as an insurance policy against litigation is one of incredulity. This is obviously in the context of sectors, which is most of them, where it has not been the tradition to use ADR.

In November last, we held an event with the world president of the institute, Professor Doug Jones, on the topic of ADR in Australia. The biggest lesson to emerge was that in Australia, ADR, especially mediation, is primarily client driven. Clients tell lawyers they want mediation or other ADR vehicles, not the other way around. We believe that is the way it should be and we should move towards educating the public who will inform the lawyers, although I also agree with the points made by my colleague, Mr. Austin Kenny, on this.

The welcome provisions in this Bill requiring lawyers to inform clients of the ADR option are only one half of the picture. Business organisations, consumer groups, citizens advice services, the trade union movement and others need to be brought to a point where they clearly and fully understand the potential of this Bill to make their lives easier when disputes arise.

In that context, I conclude with a cautionary tale. When the automatic referral to mediation pilot scheme was introduced at London Central County Court in the 1990s, research by Professor Hazel Genn showed that in approximately 80% of cases one or both parties objected to it. Other research shows that people are not as enthusiastic about mediation as the Government, the judges and the mediation community think they ought to be.

I invite my colleague, Mr. Bill Holohan, to add to these comments.

Mr. Bill Holohan

I will be brief and will not repeat points made. As the committee will be aware from another context, I am a practising solicitor of almost 30 years but today I appear, so to speak, as a repentant solicitor and arbitrator. Having spent 30 years litigating, having studied Sun Tzu's The Art of War, and having learned the lesson of Machiavelli that one should never leave a wounded prince on the battlefield, I came to the conclusion that there had to be a better way. Pádraig Pearse said education was the murder machine but even though he was a practising barrister, he had not experienced as a party the litigation machine in this country. I have seen people bitterly divided as a result of disputes, not only those that started out as issues between them but also as a result the litigation process itself, which of its very nature is adversarial and drives people apart.

I had a Pauline conversion on the way to the Four Courts five years ago and went and became an accredited mediator. Since being elected to the committee of the chartered institute, I have been strong in advocating mediation. I was also a founder member of commercialmediators.ie, my particular area of experience being in commercial mediation.

My colleague, Ms Blaney, will go through some of the headlines in terms of our submission and focus on certain aspects. If I can focus on one issue, in particular, it would be, as Mr. Brady mentioned, the need to ensure clients are fully informed. In certain areas of the law, there is a formulaic requirement to certify a practitioner has discussed ADR options with the client or informed him or her about them. That is not enough. As per the Bill, there should be a requirement the clients sign an affidavit stating they have been informed, but also that they have decided not to go through ADR, in particular mediation, for specified reasons, and those reasons should have consequences, especially in the court's discretion on costs.

I was consulted recently by a person of high net worth who had been through bitter family law proceedings. The person had gone through High Court litigation with intermittent appeals to the Supreme Court on various points throughout a five year process. The end result, notwithstanding that many of the spouse's claims were not sustained, was that this gentleman was ordered to provide, as precondition to getting his divorce, a fund of €1 million to cover his spouse's legal costs alone, and he is also faced with a claim for a similar amount from this own solicitors, the marital assets pool having a value of some €9 million and the bank borrowings being approximately €7 million. They face almost potential insolvency, with costs of €2 million, to achieve a result that could have been achieved through a mediation process. Mediation was offered at the outset but it was rejected by one spouse who wanted a day in court.

Everybody is entitled to have access to the court and the European Convention on Human Rights would guarantee that, as would the Constitution, but there should be consequences for an unreasonable failure to mediate. There is decided case law in the United Kingdom on it. The principles are clear, but that should be incorporated in legislation here. One cannot force people to drink if they come to the lakeside of mediation, but they should certainly be given the opportunity to linger long and consider the opportunity.

Time is tight and I ask Ms Blaney to be as brief as possible.

Ms Anne-Marie Blaney

Our comments and suggested amendments to the draft heads of Bill are itemised in the 18 points submitted in our memorandum to the committee. We submit that there are two key issues, if I could extract those, which relate to the role of the professions to promote the use of mediation and the importance of regulation and minimum standards on which the draft is silent.

Head 4 addresses a duty on solicitors to provide information and advice on mediation services and at points one to four, inclusive, in our submission, we propose amendments to ensure those mediation services are provided by licensed and accredited mediators or organisations of such persons. This also envisages the filing of a statement, signed by a party and solicitor prior to commencing civil proceedings, that mediation has been considered. We submit it is important to add a requirement to state the reason mediation has not been adopted. It is submitted this prevents a formulaic adherence to the exercise, and clients will make a fully informed choice not to proceed with mediation and will be cognisant of all the implications, including the potential implications on the matter of costs.

Head 12 of the Bill addresses the court's invitation to parties to consider mediation. Obligatory attendance at an information session on mediation and its advantages as distinct from obligatory participation in dispute resolution through the mechanism of mediation will not detract from the overall voluntary nature of mediation. We submit there should be provision for the Minister to specify by statutory instrument approved bodies such as CIArb which would provide such information sessions.

The second key issue is regulation and minimum standards. Heads 6, 8 and 9, and a new head 9(8) which we propose be inserted, are important in this context. Head 6 addresses mediation conditions and codes of practice. We submit that it should be mandatory for mediators to declare the code of conduct under which they practice and, therefore, remove the words "if any" from the draft heads. The Minister should also have the power to publish a default code of practice and recognise codes of practice published and promoted by recognised bodies, such as the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators. In addition to point 12, we submit that head 8 requires the mediator to give details of experience. No attempt whatsoever is made at regulating the profession, the training of mediators and the administration of the profession or any other method of quality control of the mediator's profession. It is particularly surprising that there is no reference to minimum training requirements or standards. There is a need for statutory provision providing for the licensing, regulation and supervision of the mediation profession, such as a statutory scheme providing for the licensing, regulation and supervision of trained, qualified, accredited mediators, accredited by recognised bodies.

In addition to the CPD details, head 8 addresses the provision of details regarding continuing professional development and as part of statutory provisions providing for the licensing, regulation and supervision, CPD should be mandatory. The words "if any" should be removed in clauses 8(2)(b ) and 8(2)(c ). On the issue of the Minister publishing a code of practice, a general default code of practice could be promulgated, as mentioned, but allowance made for specific approved codes. We propose inserting an additional clause at head 9(8) which would read: “A mediator shall, prior to the commencement of the mediation process, provide to the parties in writing, details of the published or approved code of practice to which he or she adheres which, code of practice shall be deemed to form part of the terms on which the mediator is engaged by the parties.” This would make the published or approved code part of the contract of engagement. I express our gratitude to the committee for listening to our submission.

I thank Ms Blaney. I invite Mr. Mark Small, Mediate Ireland, to make his presentation.

Mr. Mark Small

I thank the committee for inviting Mediate Ireland to appear before the committee. I am the managing director of Mediate Ireland. I am accompanied by Ms Mary O'Dwyer, BL, senior mediator with the company. We welcome the introduction of the Mediation Bill which has the potential to significantly reduce the backlog of cases before the courts and, more important in the current economic climate, can help to reduce the costs of litigation. We have a number of concerns which we have included in our written submission which are based on our experience in dealing with a wide variety of mediations, including family, commercial, workplace and financial. We have experience in dealing with individuals, SMEs, multinationals and semi-State bodies.

In the interest of keeping our opening statement brief I wish to highlight our two main concerns with the draft general scheme as proposed. These relate to confidentiality and a national register of mediators. I will deal first with confidentiality which is dealt with under section 10 of the draft general scheme. Generally speaking, litigation is held in an extremely adversarial environment and arbitration which is a widely used form of alternative dispute resolution in Ireland can also suffer from the same problem. Mediation is unique in that it helps to create a non-adversarial environment leading to a more successful and longer lasting resolution of disputes. International research has shown that eight out of ten mediations are successful and we have found that to be the case in our mediations. A vast majority of mediators internationally and in Ireland agree that the reason for the success of mediation is largely due to the confidential nature of the process and that this confidentiality increases the party's willingness to constructively engage in the mediation process. There can be many people involved in a mediation. However, they form three groups - the parties to the dispute, the mediator, or mediators in some cases, and the non-parties, including all the advisers and support personnel attending the mediation. These can include solicitors, barristers, financial advisers, family or friends.

Head 10 (i) provides that confidentiality can be waived if expressly waived by all the parties. This is ambiguous in that one would not be confident of to whom this applies. Does it apply to the mediator and non-parties also? If not, this would severely limit the effectiveness of the mediation process and make it pointless or purely a fishing exercise to wait for the litigation. The committee needs to re-examine this section in the draft general scheme.

The Law Reform Commission published a draft mediation Bill in 2010. Section 7 of that draft relating to confidentiality was much clearer in stating that the mediator parties and non-parties may refuse to disclose and may prevent any other person from disclosing a mediation communication. It went on to say that mediator parties and non-parties must all waive confidentiality. We believe, and it is echoed almost unanimously among the committee, that confidentiality is the cornerstone of a successful mediation. We strongly recommend that the committee take note of section 7 of the Law Reform Commission draft mediation Bill 2010.

The second issue is the need for a national register of mediators. This has not been covered in the draft general scheme and we consider it is of vital importance to the general public. Mediators can come from all backgrounds. I have a commercial background, my colleague, Ms Mary O'Dwyer, is a barrister. There is no one profession that makes better or worse mediators. However, initial training and, more important, ongoing training is essential to a successful mediator.

In Ireland there is no place where the general public can access a single list or register of mediators. The result is that any person can put up a sign and call themselves a mediator. There is no way in which the general public can know if that person has any training or is following any particular code of conduct. A similar situation existed in regard to architects until the enactment of the Building Control Act 2007 which provided for a national register. We recommend that the committee consider provisions to enable a national register similar to the way the architects register was introduced. There are a number of groups who maintain a list of mediators. For example, the Irish Commercial Mediators Association, Mediators Institute of Ireland, Chartered Institute of Arbitrators and Mediate Ireland. In some cases these are public lists or, in our case, a private company list.

We are not suggesting that the word "mediator" should be protected as there needs to be scope to allow development of mediation in other areas, such as community, social and sports mediation. However, words such as "registered" or "certified mediator" should be used to identify a person who has achieved a specified level of training, adheres to a particular code of conduct and participates in ongoing education. This would go some way towards protecting the general public when engaging a professional to help resolve disputes. It would then be up to a member of the public to decide what level of mediator he or she wishes to use.

I thank the Chairman and members for inviting us to appear before the committee. We are happy to answer any questions.

Deputy Ann Ferris took the Chair.

I have just taken the Chair because the Chairman has a question in the House. As Deputy Dara Calleary is the lead questioner for the Centre for Effective Dispute Resolution he may wish to ask a few questions. As the Chairman requested, perhaps members would keep their questions short and sharp.

I welcome the groups and thank them for their submissions. Given that we have had ten groups submitting their thoughts on mediation, who mediates the mediators? All joking aside, that is an issue to which they might all give consideration. We have had differing views on some aspects of the legislation. In the event of a complaint about a mediator in this process, given that it is going to assume such importance, to where does a person go? Is there an ombudsman for mediation? In regard to the CEPD submission, its representative expressed concern about including the terms "integrity" and "fairness" in the legislation. What are the international norms around the inclusion of such specific language?

Ms Nicola White

I am a practice manager with the Centre for Effective Dispute Resolution. I was involved with the Law Reform Commission's report on ADR and the draft Bill. We had this debate ourselves on such terminology. In the Uniform Mediation Act, the US decided to leave out those terms because they felt it may lead to satellite litigation and was more suited to a code of practice or a code of ethics. There are some references to "what is integrity?" and "treating parties equally", but it also provides that a mediator can give a recommendation. What happens if the recommendation favours one party more? We believe those terms would be more suited to a code of practice rather than to the Bill.

It has been widely said that mediation services could become an important part of the economy. Is there anything in the Bill that would inhibit that commercial potential? In Ms White's view, is there anything we could do to promote Ireland as a centre for mediation?

Ms Nicola White

The goal of those involved in mediation, many of whom are present, is to promote Ireland as a centre for mediation. It is the perfect place for international dispute resolution due to our language and stance on neutrality. Together with the Law Reform Commission of Ireland, we recommended one Bill that would be applicable to both domestic and cross-Border mediation. At present we have SI 209 of 2011 which transposes the European Communities (Mediation) Regulations 2011. One consideration would be to incorporate that into the Bill in order that it would be applicable in both jurisdictions, domestic and cross-Border. This Bill has attracted attention internationally because it is very advanced compared to what applies in other jurisdictions. It may be a lost opportunity not to make the provisions of this Bill applicable to international mediation that takes place in Ireland. People would be attracted to come to Ireland because we would have this protection in place.

It is a matter for concern that while people who wish to opt out of mediation must provide a written statement setting out detailed reasons for opting out of the process, the Centre for Effective Dispute Resolution, CEDR, as well as many other groups agree that if a mediator wishes to opt out, he or she is not required to give the reasons. Effectively, the mediator will be allowed to walk away because many groups cite confidentiality as the reason. Where is the fairness of imposing a restriction on a client who may not wish to get involved in the process and forcing him or her to give written reasons for opting out yet allowing the mediator to walk away if he or she has a problem and without having to give a justifiable explanation?

Ms Nicola White

The reason is based on the principle of confidentiality and maintaining confidentiality in mediation. Where we recommend that parties give reasons for not going to mediation is to tie in with cost sanctions that are applicable already for a refusal to mediate. Under the Bill, a party may withdraw from mediation and may or may not give reasons. It is up to the parties themselves why they are not sticking with the process. Under the Bill, a mediator must give reasons. For the report, I spent four years researching this issue at the Law Reform Commission of Ireland. I am not aware that a mediator must give reasons in any other jurisdictions.

The reason is that in the process of mediation, a mediator will meet each party privately and quite often in that private session, he may become aware of information and realise it is not appropriate to continue with the mediation. If the mediator had to state the reason for withdrawal, he would be breaching the confidentiality that exists between the mediator and a party in a private session. I do not believe there is any benefit to a mediator disclosing reasons. It may prevent parties from being open and frank in a caucus, given the whole purpose of the private meeting is to get to the real root of the conflict. If parties, though the mediator, might tell the other side what they are saying in that situation, it would damage the process.

To return to my first question, where does a client go if he or she has a difficulty with the mediation process?.

Mr. Greg Hunt

If somebody has a problem with a mediator from the Centre for Effective Dispute Resolution we have our own internal complaints procedure to allow a person to complain about the mediator. Mediators are often members of other professional bodies as well. Many of our mediators are members of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators or similar professional institutions who also have their own professional conduct committees and ways to escalate complaints about an individual through them. In the UK, the Civil Mediation Council, CMC, has it own complaints procedure, so again, if we exhaust our procedures and other organisations exhaust their procedures, the CMC can be appointed.

We do not shy away from inserting into our own contracts as well other alternative dispute resolution bodies to come in and mediate if we are involved in a dispute. Obviously we may potentially know the mediator, because we know many mediators but there will always be an opportunity to appoint somebody whom we do not know. It is a community that looked after itself in many ways, but ultimately the professional conduct committees and bodies within each organisation will act and the Civil Mediation Council will be able to step in and help resolve any complaints at a later stage.

Ms Nicola White

From my experience with the Law Reform Commission of Ireland, which looked at this issue, bodies like CEDR, the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators and so on have developed great codes. The Mediators Institute of Ireland, MII, in particular has put a significant effort into the code of practice and the disciplinary code. The problem, which was the concern of the Law Reform Commission of Ireland, is what happens if one is not a body to one of these professional institutes. A person may do training of 60 hours or 40 hours, become a sole practitioner and not a member of the chartered institute, CEDR or the MII. Our main concern is to have an umbrella that would ensure all mediators would be subject to a disciplinary and grievance procedure.

I thank the representatives from CEDR and Deputy Calleary. I call on Senator Ivana Bacik to question the Dublin Solicitors Bar Association.

I thank all the groups for making detailed and comprehensive submissions on the Bill. I welcomer the opportunity to engage with everybody. I was glad to hear the Dublin Solicitors Bar Association, DSBA, representatives say mediation is appropriate for everything from childhood playground disputes to war between nations. That covers a range.

I wish to follow up on one of Deputy Calleary's point in relation to head 6 and the issue of withdrawing from mediation without reason. I heard the earlier speaker say no other jurisdiction provides that a mediator must give reasons for withdrawal. I see in the explanatory note that it is undesirable from a policy perspective that a mediator be permitted to withdraw without any explanation but I see in the DSBA submission that it states similarly said that a mediator should be free to withdraw without reason. For example, if something arises in a private consultation with one party, it might breach confidentiality to reveal it as the reason for withdrawing. The Law Society of Ireland has suggested a middle ground. Do the witnesses believe where a mediator is to have a statutory duty to give a reason to the parties before withdrawing, it is appropriate to state they should only be obliged to do so if the confidence of a party or parties would not be breached? Does that address the difficulty or should there be a blanket rule that they should not have to give reasons?

Ms Geraldine Kelly

I will ask my colleague, Mr. William Aylmer, to answer that question.

Deputy David Stanton resumed the Chair.

Mr. William Aylmer

I am William Aylmer, council member of the Irish Commercial Mediation Association. It may be a middle ground but I think the key point is the party would have to consent to the confidentiality being breached. In fact, the party would have to waive confidentiality. The concern from our point of view is that while the Law Reform Commission of Ireland recommended that all parties, including the mediator, be entitled to withdraw without giving reason, it seemed to make that recommendation on the basis of the voluntarist principle of mediation rather than the confidentiality principle. To compound the difficulty, the general scheme does not outline the policy reasons it considered for making it appropriate that the mediator would be required to give reasons. It may be easier to deal with this point and address it if we were to understand those policy reasons. The key issue is it would require a party to waive the right to confidentiality. It may be a middle ground.

Deputy Calleary made the point about ensuring the Bill, when enacted, would facilitate as far as possible Ireland being a centre for international mediation. One reason is that international mediators might be invited to co-mediate with Irish mediators in significant international commercial disputes and we feel strongly that a mediator who is accustomed to practising in England and Wales or in other jurisdictions would shy away from accepting a nomination or an appointment to co-mediate in a significant commercial dispute in Ireland if he felt he would be required to disclose his reasons before being entitled to withdraw. His concern would be, as we have said, on the basis that to do so would be to breach confidentiality.

I have one follow up question. In head 6, it states the mediator must set out the terms in writing under which mediation takes places. The point was raised by the Dublin Solicitors Bar Association that there is no provision for sanction on mediators if they do not comply with the section. Should there be a provision and what should it be if so?

Mr. William Aylmer

It is very difficult to say what sanction should be imposed on the mediator if he or she fails to comply. It is something we thought consideration might be given to, although it may be more appropriate that consideration be given in a code of conduct or disciplinary procedure rather than primary legislation.

I apologise for having to leave earlier but there was a parliamentary question in the Dáil I was scheduled to ask. We need somebody to mediate between us and the Chamber.

I thank all the groups for attending. I will focus on head 4, as there are different opinions on it. We have gone from the provision of a statement that mediation has been considered to outlining reasons this was not an option. A submission has suggested providing certificates stating that people have attended a mandatory information session. Will the witnesses provide some more information on those sessions? It was indicated that in England the process is mandatory, with an obligation to attend.

Mr. Eoin Cullina

Yes. The position in England changed earlier this year and we are fortunate to be able to work closely with a group of family mediators in London. They are very experienced mediators from different organisations. We have been able to plug into them and ask how mandatory information sessions have been going. Such sessions are going well because there is an impetus.

Head 4 is somewhat muddled and we must ask a basic question. If we assume mediation is good for people and it works, we should consider how to put the information in the hands of the clients. To date, the system we have operated under in a family context in Ireland has been certificates under the Family Law (Divorce) Act 1996. A solicitor would send certificates to the court indicating that he or she has spoken to the clients and told them about mediation. Despite the fact that we have had that for many years, there has been an abysmal conversion rate with regard to people going to mediation. If we learn from our cousins in England - I am thankful some of them are here today - the position appears to be improving by virtue of the fact that the people attend the information session. Nobody is forcing mediation in these cases, and people are merely learning about it, as couples do when they come to work with us. We sit the couples down and explain mediation.

It is voluntary because we take it that the couple are there because they want to be. That is invariably the case. It is impartial in that the couples understand we are not judges and will not tell them their business or what to do. Confidentiality sections are important because of a third element, namely, privacy. Whatever options are instigated in the room should be free in looking to fix the problem by means of separation, for example. It is the same with a sibling or commercial dispute. If somebody violates the sacred bubble that is in place, people will not want to come to mediation. Unfortunately, that is where the draft heads fall short. The concept should be tightened.

With regard to head 4, it is our submission that the people who are best placed to provide certification that the clients understand mediation are the clients themselves. Mediation is about self-empowerment. If I decide to take litigation against anybody, I should be obliged to present a certificate to indicate I understand there is an alternative and I have at least attended a session of my own free will and taken on board that information. If people want to proceed and take the risks of going through the courts - with the following cost implications - that is their own business. The most the State can do in this regard is ensure that the citizen is properly informed. Our previous system has not worked and the statistics speak for themselves.

Mr. Cullina's group provides these information sessions.

Mr. Eoin Cullina

Yes.

How successful are they?

Mr. Eoin Cullina

The success rate is in excess of 90%. The cases which have not worked out and proceeded directly to mediation from private information sessions are invariably those where there is an underlying serious issues, such as domestic violence. That may not surface for some time. The information sessions are there to be used. The experience of our colleagues in the United Kingdom is that the information sessions are proving very effective in bringing people to the mediation process, thereby giving better results.

Are we looking at the same type of percentage in England?

Mr. Eoin Cullina

I am not sure of the percentages in England and cannot speak for that. From the last point of contact with our colleagues in England, it seems they are seeing a definite change, with people becoming more aware of the process and taking the option of not going down the litigation route.

I presume this option just relates to the family area.

Mr. Eoin Cullina

That is our point of contact. A question could be raised as to whether this should be for all types of mediation in civil litigation or just the family area. We would take the lead from the Law Reform Commission report. It is great that Ms Nicola White is here as she was instrumental in preparing that report. It is extremely unfortunate that the LRC recommendations have not been followed to the effect that these information sessions in the family context should be mandatory. Much evidence was included in the report as to why this should be so and we know the process is working in other jurisdictions internationally and in states within the United States, not to mention the United Kingdom. Why should we not follow suit if it is tried, trusted and working? If that concept is not included in this Bill, the Legislature would be making a grave omission, following on with the failed policies from the family legislation.

I welcome everybody. Listening to the various presentations, it seems there is a thread going through each. The elements sought include confidentiality, a code of conduct in practice and a register of mediators. Near the beginning there was mention of alternative dispute resolution which includes mediation. Will the witnesses explain the difference between ADR and mediation?

Mr. Pat Brady

Alternative dispute resolution is a generic term for all processes outside the court system. There is some question as to whether arbitration is, strictly speaking, alternative dispute resolution but in general terms, it is everything that does not drag a person to court. The other processes are adjudicative, whereas mediation is one of a number of participative processes, including conciliation and so on.

That would be part of work disputes and solutions. Would it cover all types of disputes in every area?

Mr. Pat Brady

Yes, it has the potential to do so as the Bill is drafted. The Arbitration Act, for example, does not include employment disputes but this legislation would do so. There are some conditions relating to workplace disputes but it would be covered. We may appear to be a fractious bunch but we are all united in that the potential of this legislation is enormous for Ireland Inc. and how disputes are resolved. We have seen the benefit of the resolution of a long-running intercommunal dispute and in principle there is no reason not to extend this way of business into everyday matters. That would have a similar premium for business dispute resolution in all its forms. That is why I was at some pains to express some concerns.

There are two stages, with the first getting this legislation right. As has been correctly observed, there is a high degree of agreement around the table. The next level comes after this legislation, when we must ask what must happen to achieve what the Government has defined as a primary purpose of the Bill, which is to reduce costs. Deputy Calleary made an interesting observation and a number of people in the room have been canvassed on the idea of presenting a more united front to the potential users of mediation. With the greatest respect to this committee, if it is bewildered by the range of organisations then potential users of the system will be utterly bewildered to say nothing of the duplicated and wasted efforts to get the message out to business. There are three legs to the stool. As Mr. Austin Kenny has said, one is the legal community. I have been engaged with the business community and have witnessed an incredulous response. The mediation community must rock up and face some questions on how it proposes to ensure the public interest objectives of the legislation turns into a reality. I hope that there will be an initiative, in due course, to turn it into a reality.

Earlier the need for a national register of mediators was mentioned a few times. As Mr. Pat Brady has said, it would allow users to access a service online or whatever and make choices but would depend on where they work and live and on what mediation organisations charge for their services. Is there a difference between what organisations charge? Should there be-----

Mr. Pat Brady

A national register?

Yes. There should be a cost guide like the one used for legal services where litigation costs are stipulated. Should there be guidelines to allow a consumer or user to know the exact price for a service? Organisations providing the same service charge various prices, resulting in a disparity of €100 or more. There have been a lot of cases where people have been confused by charges and they think that if they pay more they will receive better value and a better service. That is not necessarily the case. I would like the delegations to comment on charges.

The delegations mentioned that mediation should be client driven and I agree. If somebody opts for mediation, whether they are neighbours, an employer and employee or a couple, is one mediator enough? Can people choose two mediators with one being their own as in the case of a collaborative divorce?

Mr. Pat Brady

The Deputy asks hard questions. I will make a comment while I think of an answer to the Deputy's second question.

Earlier I commented on presenting greater clarity on who does what. That is highly desirable. I think Mr. Small referred to it also. Obviously, if we were starting from scratch we would not start from here. It seems to me that an overriding objective that we all share is that potential users of mediation easily find the answer to all of their questions such as who is suitably qualified, do they operate under a code of conduct and what they charge. The Bill does comment on charging.

With regard to the second question on whether to use one or more mediators, that is a matter of individual choice. Family mediation is quite different from commercial mediation so perhaps I will defer to someone else.

Mr. Bill Holohan

I will add to Mr. Pat Brady's comments on the first point. I am reminded of the words of Oscar Wilde that a cynic is man who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing. It depends on who one gets and his or her experience. That is why, as part of the submissions, we favour a register. We also favour publishing the details of mediators' training, experience, continual professional development, the refresher courses that they attended, etc., in order that people can choose a suitably-qualified mediator. Mediators have different experiences. Recently, we ran courses on workplace mediation and afterwards we asked participants to comment on their experience. One of the comments made was that there is a new wild west territory. Someone from a commercial background did not know about it and they had not experienced the intensity of relationships in a workplace mediation process which might be even more intense in a family law situation. There are different skills even in the mediation community. We want to ensure that skill levels and costs are transparent but costs vary. For example, the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators operates schemes that involve an element of pro bono work on debt mediation with the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, etc. It is horses for courses.

I have a final question for Mr. Bill Holohan. He mentioned qualifications and getting what one pays for. What minimum qualification should a mediator possess? Should it be somebody from a legal area such as a solicitor or barrister? Does he think a minimum qualification is necessary? What can be done to stop Joe Soaps like myself putting a plaque on their door and claiming to be a mediator?

Mr. Bill Holohan

There should be an accreditation process following a specified minimum number of hours incorporating specified elements of training. There are different accreditation bodies but, broadly speaking, they all adhere to that concept and principle. There are some very experienced mediators who have never undergone formal training because they have grown over the years. In terms of setting a standard, in the same way as Mr. Mark Small referred to architects, grandfather provisions were included in the 2007 Act to allow those regarded as grandfathers of the architectural industry to qualify even though they had never sat an exam. Similarly, there are people like that in the mediation community. In terms of the future, it should be based on clearly defined and maintained standards.

Would examinations be attached to that process?

Mr. Bill Holohan

Correct.

That is great and I thank the Chairman.

Does Mr. Small wish to comment briefly?

Mr. Mark Small

With regard to the Deputy's question on a list or register of mediators, my organisation would not favour what I would call a "PR" list. How would one maintain it and how would it be structured? Again, I will refer to the list of architects that purely contains the name of the person, the contact details and specific registration number. I want a purely separate listed register because all of us are members of different bodies. Individual bodies can have a "PR" list and let each association, such as the Irish Commercial Mediation Association, Mediate Ireland or Chartered Institute of Arbitrators, have different information on their lists. We need to separate the register from the "PR" type of register because it would not be beneficial. There would also be a question over who maintains it. I think it would be more beneficial to have a single list done that way.

Is Mediate Ireland in favour of the grandfather clause contained in the Bill?

Mr. Mark Small

I think so. I would reference my father who has just retired. He was probably one of the best mediators around. He does not have any formal training but looked after a lot of multinational issues. We must allow people that practice as mediators, and are members of organisations, who have no formal training to exist as mediators. We seek a way to deal with what will happen over the next 50 years.

I thank Mr. Small.

Mr. Eoin Cullina

I wish to respond to the Deputy.

Briefly.

Mr. Eoin Cullina

Collaborative divorces and co-mediation were mentioned earlier. The system that Family Mediation Ireland primarily uses in family cases is co-mediation. For example, a male and a female mediator will work with a couple going through a separation. It has also been used effectively in commercial mediation. Many commercial mediators, including David Richbell who is one of the leading commercial mediators in England, strongly advocate co-mediation. It allows for a counterbalance. It allows for security checks and balances for the mediation team and one mediator is not loaded with the full responsibility of handling a mediation. Collaborative divorce is slightly different but we advocate co-mediation.

Ba bhreá liom fáilte a cur roimh na grúpaí éagsúla agus ár mbuíochas a ghabháil leo as ucht an méid atá ráite acu. I have a few brief questions. I am not sure whom I should direct them to. Maybe I will just throw them out there. If people feel a question is of particular interest to them, they can respond to it. My first question is about head 5, which relates to the duties of barristers.

I have to stop the Senator for a moment. He is aware that we have a one-on-one system going here.

That has been organised. Perhaps the Senator can hold his questions until that process has been finished. We will invite him in again.

That is no problem.

I call Deputy Finian McGrath, who wishes to ask a question of Mediate Ireland.

Yes. I welcome all the groups. I thought their oral and written submissions were excellent. I am strongly supportive of mediation because it can save time, stress and money for many people.

I would like the Deputy to ask focused questions of Mediate Ireland.

Okay. I will direct my first question at Mr. Small and Ms O'Dwyer. Most people agree that the mediation system saves time, money and stress. I do not think anyone has mentioned that the integrity of the mediator has to be sacrosanct. How can that integrity be guaranteed in the interests of the person, the group and the consumer? Can it be done through strong regulation?

Mr. Mark Small

One can over-regulate in this regard, as in any area. It could be dangerous to put it on a statutory framework or to try to define anything. Our belief is that during the mediation process, if one cannot quantify it one should not try to agree it. Many people speak about unquantifiable matters like respect or love. Similarly, integrity is a very difficult thing to quantify. We would have great difficulty if we tried to legislate for it. However, it may be possible to cater for this and other matters within a code of practice. A great deal of emphasis is placed on one's experience and track record. People within the mediation community, which is quite small, know what is going on. The question of the register arises again in this context. It could be possible to remove someone from the register for a gross breach of discipline or integrity. It could be done through a hearing or appeals process which would be organised on that basis. It would be difficult to try to regulate it.

In his submission, Mr. Small suggested that this committee should look at "confidentiality which is dealt with under section 10 of the draft general scheme".

Mr. Mark Small

Yes.

He also proposed that the committee should adopt section 7 of the 2010 draft Mediation Bill as a kind of recommendation. Is that right?

Mr. Mark Small

I would not like to tell someone how to suck eggs. It would be much more appropriate for Ms White to comment on that.

Would it represent a more positive and appropriate way of proceeding?

Mr. Mark Small

Yes. That particular part of the 2010 legislation was really clear and very straightforward.

Mr. Mark Small

It referred to all the specific parties, the mediator and the non-parties. It highlighted the specific requirements of each of them. It was much clearer. As I said in our submission, the current head 10 is very ambiguous in what it is trying to achieve.

I understand that Mediate Ireland has said in the past that 90% of mediations are completed in one day. That is its track record, as far as I know. Where did Mediate Ireland get that figure? How many cases were examined to come up with it?

Mr. Mark Small

The figure in question relates to the last couple of years. We have suggested that all our mediations are done in a day. I know this is different from the way Family Mediation Ireland works. Mediation takes place over multiple days in the family situation. We believe that the groundwork associated with a particular agreement can be done, and a framework can be drawn up, within a day. However, certain elements of it may need to be tweaked thereafter. We have dealt with a significant number of cases over the last year. I would estimate that 90% of them have been done in a single day.

Mr. Mark Small

That is the nature of what it is. I cannot emphasise enough that someone can say almost anything to the mediator in confidence. The co-mediation model we use is also beneficial. It involves a specialist in a particular area - finance, human resources or medicine - working with a highly-qualified mediator. On that basis, we are able to hone in on an agreement or draw up the terms of an agreement very quickly. As I have said, it can all be done in a day. If one cannot agree the context or framework for an agreement in a day, one is not going to agree.

The demand for mediation seems to be increasing nationally and internationally. Part of the reason for that is the reduced costs that are associated with mediation. What about the cost to the company, the consumer or the person? Is the mediation service potentially, basically or essentially for well-off people who have lots of money? How can mediation be used by people who do not necessarily have the required clout, finances or resources?

Mr. Mark Small

A survey that was conducted by the Irish Commercial Mediation Association - Mr. Kenny can correct me if I am wrong in this regard - found that a commercial mediation process is 83% cheaper than a litigation process. Significant cost reductions are associated with mediation. Mediate Ireland provides half-day mediation when the dispute relates to a single issue for as little as €750 plus VAT. A limit has to be placed on what can be done in such cases. That is our way of doing it. It is very limited. The €750 figure applies to both parties. Each of them pays €375. I do not think this is the high-cost issue that people are suggesting it is. It is significantly cheaper than a litigation process. I emphasise that half-day mediation has to focus on a single issue that may have arisen. It is open to everyone.

Ms Caroline Holmes

I am a founder member of an organisation that does pro bono work in Limerick. Our colleagues who work for the Family Mediation Service, which is not represented here today, also offer a free mediation service. My colleague referred to doing pro bono work. I am aware that CEDR Ireland undertakes pro bono work. People who need to access mediation can avail of free mediation services.

That is grand. I have a final question on the broader question of mediation. Some people might be concerned that a broad attempt is being made to replace the Labour Relations Commission without providing for a rights commissioner. Would that be in the zone? Were mediators involved in the background before a final resolution was found to the long dispute involving the Vita Cortex workers in Cork? Is that part of the game here? Are people involved in trade unions being undermined?

Sorry, we cannot get into specific cases.

I know. The question is-----

I heard the question.

Is an attempt being made to replace-----

I want to make one point please.

We cannot get into specific disputes. The Deputy's question was perfectly valid. I am merely pointing out that we should not get into specific disputes.

I will repeat my major question. Is a broad attempt being made to replace the Labour Relations Commission or the rights commissioner-based approach to these situations? That is all I wanted to ask.

Mr. Mark Small

I understand the question. A distinction needs to be drawn between the work of the Labour Relations Commission and mediation. There seems to be a confusion between the two types of mediation. There is mediation in the Labour Relations Commission but an element of recommendation is also given subsequent to that. In the mediation provided by Mediate Ireland, absolutely no recommendation is given by the mediators. That is the type of mediation that most people in this room are talking about. The making of a recommendation is a different process. In its 2010 report, the Labour Relations Commission mentioned that the process in question can be defined as "conciliation". There is a complete lack of understanding of the fact that the two processes are very distinct. The Labour Relations Commission listens and acts as a referee in a mediation-type process. At the end of that process, the person will make a recommendation on the basis of what he or she feels. If mediation - as we define it - breaks down, no recommendation is made. We say that the mediation has ended and everyone goes their separate ways.

Mediate Ireland states on its website that the increase in the number of mediations it has been undertaking "is probably as a result of the significant delays experienced in progressing a case through a Rights Commissioner and the Labour Relations Commission".

Mr. Mark Small

Yes.

That is my point.

Mr. Mark Small

We say that on the basis of our experience in dealing with multinationals and some semi-State bodies we have been dealing with recently. We understand that the standard Labour Relations Commission process can take up to 18 months. It takes slightly less than that. Mediate Ireland, presumably like most of the organisations that are represented at this meeting, could have a mediator on site for a mediation process in a matter of days or weeks.

I thank Mr. Small.

Ms Caroline Holmes

As a former head of HR, I note the employment tribunal would often revert to a company and suggest mediation. In such cases, resolution could be quicker and cheaper. The sooner one tries to resolve a dispute, be it familial or commercial, the better. This can obviate the need for going to the Labour Relations Commission, etc.

Mr. Pat Brady

To clarify a point for Deputy Finian McGrath, yet another mediation system, known as early resolution, was introduced as part of the current Government's blueprint for reform of employment rights procedures. Those concerned clearly did not want to use the term "mediation". The option of private mediation still exists and it is legally possible to settle a matter, even a matter under one of the employment rights statutes, at mediation subject to certain consent conditions. There is nothing in this that will do other than help in the process of resolving disputes.

I have urged a number of trade unions to review their internal complaints mechanisms and replace them with mediation. There is no part of Irish life that could not be improved by adopting the general principles that underlie this legislation. If anything, it is of help to complainants. One can gain access to the rights commissioner quite quickly these days but it can take 83 weeks to get to an employment appeals tribunal. The early resolution mechanism and private mediation could obviate the need for such an approach.

I have three questions. My colleague from the Law Library, Mr. David Nolan, SC, may be able to assist me with my first question, which relates to head 5, concerning the duty of the barrister regarding mediation. We are awaiting legislation, the Legal Services Regulation Bill, in the Seanad. It has not come through the Dáil yet. It might bring a lot of changes.

How does Mr. Nolan envisage the process working out in terms of a barrister's responsibility to advise clients about the possible use of mediation as an alternative to litigation? Is this just a provision in the proposed legislation that would lead to one other box being ticked by barristers in terms of their being required to show they have just given advice to a client? Barristers enter the process and are briefed at different stages of proceedings. Would the procedure be more extensive?

Mr. David Nolan

The Senator has raised a very interesting and important point. In many ways, I am wearing two hats, one as a representative of the Bar Council and another as a representative and member of the ICMA. Our views have been well set out in the submission papers, which have already been received by the members of the joint committee. The role of the barrister is up for some determination and discussion given that the Legal Services Regulation Bill is going through the Houses. The provisions contained in the mediation legislation should be seen in light of that. Placing a separate obligation on the barrister is perhaps unwarranted.

My difficulty is that if the barrister or solicitor whom one approaches for advice advises that mediation is not appropriate, it is somewhat contradictory to place an obligation on him to go against his own advice. Lest there be any doubt about this, let me state I am a big fan of mediation. As with my colleague, I have had a road-to-Damascus experience. Mediation works because it is flexible and cheap and it empowers the parties concerned to reach their own solution.

Everybody in attendance comes with clean hands regarding this matter. I am not certain this committee understands exactly what mediation is about.

This is why we are here today.

Mr. David Nolan

If members cannot be brought to a mediation - it may not be a bad idea to carry out a mock mediation exercise for the committee – they should watch the DVD.

Deputy McGrath raised the issue of the timeframe. Mediations are carried out in a day in the vast majority of cases. I know nothing about family law mediation, which is a very separate matter. The mediations to which I refer are carried out in a single day. Everybody around this table understands litigation can proceed for months, if not years.

The ICMA made a presentation to 24 judges of the High Court. At the end of the presentation, the President of the High Court said there is no good or bad time for mediation. It can be at the start or middle of the process or, as was the case with certain very protracted litigation before a judge for two years, right at the end of a two-year period. Mediation is a process that everybody should be embracing. The big job is to sell the news to the public. My fear is that this legislation could be constrictive and restrictive.

I urge the committee to consider seriously the issue of the Statute of Limitations, head 14. I urge it very strongly not to introduce a stop on the statute. This has caused a nightmare with the Personal Injuries Assessment Board Act.

As I stated, mediations can be organised at the drop of a hat. They can be organised within a week or month or a very short period. If the parties are proceeding to mediation, there is no need to stop the statute. If one asks the mediator to become involved in stopping the statute somewhere along the line and restarting it, one is giving the mediator a statutory responsibility. The whole point of the Statute of Limitations is to bring certainty. If one introduces a provision whereby it is impossible to know where it starts and ends, there is uncertainty. I can tell the members from bitter experience that one is bringing on the satellite litigation which my friends from CEDR warned us against.

There is no need to stop the statute. With most commercial matters, the relevant period is six years. With regard to personal injuries matters, one is straight into the PIAB. With family matters, the family practitioners all know what the statute is. There is absolutely no need for what is suggested.

That was very interesting. I note many people have been to Damascus lately. I hope it will be safe to travel there again soon.

I have two brief questions, on heads 9 and 10. This matter has been referred to already. Head 9 provides that the Minister may prepare and publish a code of practice. Is the shared view of the delegates that the word "may" should really read "must"? That is a reasonable question.

Mr. Austin Kenny

There is an EU code of practice at present. There is no statutory framework for mediation. The Mediators Institute of Ireland has a well thought-out code of practice and ethics that can be considered. There is no need to rehash that space. A lot of work has been done on it in Europe and locally.

Does that answer the Senator's question?

Yes. My final question is on head 10, which concerns confidentiality of mediation and communications. Anybody following debates in this country in recent years will know we are all pondering the limits to confidentiality. I was struck by the exception whereby it was considered that disclosure would be allowed where necessary to prevent physical or psychological injury to a party. Bearing in mind that the delegates are at the coalface, it struck me that "psychological injury" could be interpreted very broadly. How workable is the concept? Is it a Pandora's box?

Mr. William Aylmer

It may be more in the contemplation of the mediators who work on disputes involving separating couples than those who work on commercial disputes, which comprise my area. If a mediator envisages or comes by information from one or other of the parties in a mediation that gives rise to an imminent danger to a party, there may be a concern he or she should take steps to ensure that injury does not happen. I do not know if that is a statutory obligation to report but it is worthy of consideration.

Mr. Eoin Cullina

My colleague is right. It has more meaning in family mediation. It is not so much the direct admissions that take place in a family mediation whereby there is awareness of a physical or psychological threat to a party; sometimes there can be indirect flags that might come out in the course of a mediation. In that regard it is clear that we have a duty to report. There is substantive legislation in place that places an onus upon all of us, lawyers and barristers, to report to the authorities where there is a case of imminent danger.

Looking at the child care legislation, the Garda Síochána has an automatic out for the recovery of children from aircraft or boats. Confidentiality is all well and good but it can be lifted by court order. We have a duty as mediators. Confidentiality is good in as far as it is not used as a mask to hide criminality or to continue to perpetrate a crime against one or other of the parties in a mediation. Sometimes it might not be explicit, it might be under the surface, but where mediators have that concern, as unfortunately I have had in the past, the duty is clear under the present law. I see nothing in this provision that would countermand anything already in legislation.

Can we get an example of where the psychological injury might cause the mediator to make a decision?

Mr. Eoin Cullina

In a general context, if someone openly admitted in private caucus, where the mediators are just one party in a mediation, that something in his or her behaviour was leading to an immediate physical or psychological concern for the other party in the mediation, we must decide where to draw the line in the sand. Would it be something slight, like not doing chores at home, or is it someone who tends by his or her own admission to be abusive in a certain context stopping short of physical violence? It is a difficult decision we must make as family mediators every day. In some cases, people clearly cross the line and go into the realm of perpetrating a physical or psychological injury to another person. In that case, it could affect another party in the case or, indeed, could affect children. We have a duty to break confidentiality in that regard. That is clear under statute and in the law as it stands today.

Ms Josepha Madigan

It is important to reiterate that mediation is not a panacea and that for each mediator dealing with separating couples, screening processes are put in place for the suitability of parties to enter mediation in the first instance. During these intake sessions, it might become apparent there are different levels and forms of abuse, from intimidation and bullying to an equilibrium between the parties that is not evident unless the mediator has experience in ascertaining and evaluating power struggles. The psychological issues and abuse issues are very important in the screening. In any separating couple dispute, the mediators will be trained in that regard.

Mr. Austin Kenny

We wanted to pick up on another point regarding confidentiality of the mediator.

Ms Helen Kilroy

It is in our submission, on the question of privilege. The law reform report recommended clarity would be given that communications in a mediation environment attract legal, professional privilege, meaning the parties do not have an obligation to disclose them in a court environment. The best practice locally is that lawyers advise clients that without prejudice discussions generally attract privilege but there has been uncertainty about it and we invite the committee to look at chapter 3(d) of the report, which makes clear provisions. That is consistent with Mr. Small's remarks on section 7 of the draft Bill that was attached to the law reform report. It addresses both confidentiality and privilege.

We have already had the withholding information Bill hearings, which were interesting, especially in family law. The Irish Commercial Mediation Association claimed several thousand legal professionals were surveyed. How many responded?

Ms Helen Kilroy

There was a very low response rate, which was a negative when we presented that at our conference in 2009. We got a response rate of close to 5%, a very low rate.

It was said several thousand legal, accounting and other professionals surveyed, along with 5,000 firms. How many of the 5,000 responded?

Mr. Austin Kenny

We had a response rate of 4%. That seems low but in survey terms, 10% is an enormous response. This was done in 2009, the very early stages of commercial mediation. It is arguable we were being preached back to by the converted. We realise there are many unconverted.

Almost half of respondents choose mediation, the success rate was 70% and the cost 70% lower than litigation. It is hardly scientific though if there is only a return of 4% on the 5,000.

Mr. Austin Kenny

We presented the survey in light of that. It was a small survey done by us. We are a pro bono volunteer body. Subsequently there have been two key surveys that we have access to, the EU survey on litigation costs, which confirmed much of the information, particularly on cost and duration of litigation, and another from France by FIDAL in association with the American Arbitration Association, one of the largest mediation organisations in the world. The same facts are coming through, with success rates even higher than those we stated and the reduction in costs is stressed, along with the potential for repairing relationships. The same language is coming back, even if the figures are slightly askew.

What sort of cases would mediators in the commercial and business world deal with?

Mr. Austin Kenny

It could be any sort of commercial dispute. It could be internal between business partners, a boardroom dispute between directors or a construction site that has gone wrong and everyone is suing everyone else. Any commercial deal or business can see disputes arise.

What percentage of cases go the mediation route instead of the litigation route?

Mr. Austin Kenny

The same EU survey tells us 0.5% of cases across Europe go to mediation. We made a presentation a while ago asking why any process, with all these compelling benefits across family and workplace, has such a low take-up. Europe's response is to get this started with cross-border transactions. The use of mediation is quite low generally.

However, we hear a lot about business costs in this country being so high and this could be part of that.

Mr. Austin Kenny

Absolutely.

So we must advertise and inform people about the mediation process.

We spoke about mandatory information sessions on the family side. What is Mr. Kenny's opinion of mandatory information sessions in the commercial sector?

Mr. Austin Kenny

It is not a bad idea. In the commercial world, and even in every aspect of our lives, information is very easy for us to find now. Doctors will say patients come to them knowing more about their problem than they do and it is the same with lawyers. The information society is feeding that. Everybody has information and, therefore, I do not know whether information sessions should be mandatory. I do not think I would be against it. I fully take on board what has been said and there is probably a need in family law.

With regard to the delivery of information, if lawyers are compelled to give the information, then clearly they need training and, therefore, the Law Society and the other professional bodies need to be taken on board to make sure solicitors and barristers are sufficiently trained about mediation. One does not know probably an awful lot about it. There is misunderstanding and misuse of the word "mediation" right across society, particularly by the media. Newspapers recently reported on the volume of mediation work undertaken by the Labour Court but it is conciliation work, not mediation work and, therefore, there is a misunderstanding. I take Mr. Brady's point earlier that as a service to the community, mediation providers need to get together and get co-ordinated around that message right across society.

Mr. Bill Holohan

Mr. Kenny referred earlier to solicitors and barristers being the gatekeepers and they are. Cork solicitors have a particular reputation. The group I am involved in in Cork has been trying to educate our colleagues. We had a seminar last year and one chap in his late 50s of a more conservative bent who had been through mediation convinced more people with one simple sentence, "You know, it worked and it wasn't bad". The difficulty is educating the lawyers as to the benefits in order that they, in turn, can inform their clients and educating them as to their role. The natural inclination of lawyers is to argue and to try to get the best deal as they say "I'll do better for you" and so on. They do not understand that there is a better way, which is to be a solutions provider for their clients. If one gets a reputation as somebody who can produce results in a short period, one will have a better future than someone who undertakes a huge volume of work and possibly never gets paid for it.

Whatever about mediation being mandatory, as Family Mediation Ireland representatives said earlier, there should be a mandatory mediation information session at the very least. People should have to have this session at the outset and then decide what road they will take. That would be important along with the public information campaign.

Mr. Greg Hunt

There has been a great deal of talk about solicitors and they are important gatekeepers. Other gatekeepers include professional bodies and institutions and trade associations. We provide more than 100 schemes for trade bodies, including everything from travel to funeral to motor care to caravan disputes with consumers where nobody even goes near a lawyer. They go to the trader who then refers them to the trade association, which, in turn, refers them to independent arbitration, adjudication, mediation, etc. It is not just about getting to the lawyers; it is about getting to the businesses because there is a range of cases from somebody who wants to go to mediation for an apology rather than money to a €1 billion construction project and everything in between. Mediation can be used for all of it. It is about getting to the right people and education is key.

Mr. Mark Small

I refer to Mr. Holohan's point about the training of the legal profession. There needs to be clarity on the two different types of training. There is training to be a mediator. However, significantly, there is also training to be an advocate within a mediation process. Two years ago, we identified this as an issue and we started a programme of training our mediators. Some people have attended our training programme for advocacy, which is different. It is different as a solicitor and a judge. The problem people are beginning to understand is that many solicitors and barristers who come to the training do not understand the difference between an advocate in a mediation context and advocate in a court context. They are used to the former and there needs to be an education process about the latter. We have trained more than 300 people in this area, including for the Law Society. It is important that people understand that difference.

Mr. Greg Hunt

I would like to make an offer and a challenge to everyone. Let us get together and take this forward. It has been mentioned a few times.

That would be useful. I thank everybody for attending. I hope witnesses will excuse members coming and going but they are busy, as there are many demands on them. I have learned a great deal not only about the upcoming legislation but also about mediation. There is not enough known about it. It is an exciting, valuable, useful, cost effective and stressless process. I would ask the media to do their bit to inform and educate the public, businesses and others about this process.

I thank the representatives for their input into the draft heads of the Bill. This is a new process where we consider the draft legislation before it is published. This will be the fifth or sixth report of the committee and the Minister and the Department have accepted many recommendations from the committee as we work closely with them. We have been requested by them to publish a report on the draft legislation before the end of the month. We will invite the witnesses to the launch. If they are available, they will be more than welcome to attend. The report will go to the Minister, who will then hopefully publish the Bill. The debate will commence in the Dáil before the Bill is sent to the committee for Committee Stage. I invite them at any stage in the proceedings to feel free to make a submission to us. Members would be most interested in maintaining engagement with the various groups.

I thank everyone for their attendance and for their interesting and valuable input, time and expertise.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.50 p.m. until 3.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 16 May 2012.
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