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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, DEFENCE AND EQUALITY díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 May 2012

Mediation Bill 2012: Discussion with Mediators' Institute of Ireland

The purpose of this meeting is to have a discussion with the Mediators' Institute of Ireland on its written submission on the heads of the Mediation Bill. Before we begin I ask everybody to turn off their mobile telephones as they interfere with our sound system. Unfortunately, silent mode is not sufficient and I ask that mobile telephones be turned off completely.

On behalf of the committee I welcome Ms Karen Erwin, president of the Mediators' Institute of Ireland, and Mr. Gerry Rooney, president elect. You are both very welcome. I thank you for your attendance at today's meeting and for the information you have supplied to the committee. It is of great assistance to us in our work in the Oireachtas. In terms of the format for today's meeting, you will be invited to make brief opening remarks of approximately five minutes which will be followed by a question and answer session.

Before we begin, I draw the attention of the witnesses to the position on privilege. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should be aware that under the salient rules of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call on the president of the Mediators' Institute of Ireland, Ms Erwin, to make her opening statement.

Ms Karen Erwin

I thank the Chairman and members for inviting us here today. We are pleased to have an opportunity to discuss issues with members and answer their questions. As members will be aware, we have provided a 17-page submission which sets out our views on the generality of mediation, what it is, how it works and its fundamental principles. Later on in the submission we deal with the heads of the Bill and we would be happy to answer questions. I am accompanied by Mr. Gerry Rooney, the president elect, who will take over from me as president of the institute in November. We have no idea who will answer the questions. If they get too difficult I might pass them to my left.

The Mediators' Institute of Ireland is a unique body in mediation terms, not only in this country, but elsewhere. As an institute we welcome mediators from all backgrounds and, if I might say, none. Our mediators practise across the whole range of mediation. That is different from how mediation services operate in England and what is turning out to be the case in Northern Ireland. In those jurisdictions, for example, they tend to have a civil and commercial mediation group, and then they might have a separate group dealing with family issues and a separate group dealing with restorative justice and perhaps workplace issues. The Mediators' Institute of Ireland was founded about 20 years ago and at that time, it was founded to work with separating couples and family mediation, but as it grew during the past 12 years it opened up more to workplace issues and to commercial and civil cases, which in mediation terms is usually referred to as commercial.

I took over as president about seven years ago and at that time we decided to have a root and branch review of how we could assure the quality of mediation and mediators. Mr. Rooney was involved very closely with me on this work because he had particular experience of accreditation of mediators and mediation training courses abroad as well what was on offer in Ireland. At all times we have tried to assure quality - quality assurance of both the training of mediators and continuous professional development, as is common with most professional organisations, quality of the actual practice of mediation, quality in regard to ethics and ethical issues, practice issues and quality in regard to independent regulation.

The way we have tried to bring about independent regulation is by best practice. In our disciplinary, complaints and appeals procedures, we have a panel of three people, of whom the chairperson and one of the other two members must not be a mediator. The third person on the panel is a mediator who will come from the speciality of mediation which is the subject matter of the complaint or disciplinary action. The standard mediation principles would be put to the complaints, disciplinary or appeals panel but the people deciding on the issue would be entirely independent of both the Meditators' Institute of Ireland and of the mediators themselves.

We are a voluntary body under the charities legislation. None of the executive directors or council members is entitled directly or indirectly to any finances. We have a part-time administrator who works five days a week, mornings only, though as the authors of our own success, we find that is not sufficient and we are now looking to see if we can expand.

Our funding comes purely from our membership subscriptions, our annual conference which we hold in November each year and any education courses or assessments that we run. We are entirely self-funding. We have almost 600 members. I would imagine by the end of this year that will rise to 700. Although I did not have a chance to check the precise number, about 90% are qualified mediators and most of them have an annual practising certificate. They have passed our 60 hours of training courses, they have passed an assessment of skills and then each year they must apply for annual membership. To become a member, they must pay the renewal fee but in addition, they also have to show that they have participated in continuous professional development, CPD.

We are unique in professional organisations in that our CPD divides into three elements. The first is what one would expect, attendance at conferences or courses. The second element is the actual practise of mediation and I will make a note of that because there are not enough mediations to go around. Although some mediators have a number of mediations in train, many mediators have none. We are worried that a person might embark on mediation when he or she has not done so for perhaps two or three years. To get over the practice element, we run role plays as necessary.

The third element of CPD is that one must have reflective practice. It is not good enough simply to mediate; one must reflect on how it is one mediates, which includes sharing experiences with other practitioners and keeping up to date with best practice. We regularly conduct what we call sharing and learning groups comprising practitioners engaged in mediation work across the board, including commercial mediation, workplace mediation and mediation involving separating couples. There is no mediator from whom one cannot learn something. We are strongly of the view that mediators, in order to serve the parties for whom they are providing a mediation service, must not keep themselves in silos. The issues that evolve during a mediation may cross the boundaries of a particular type of mediation to encompass intergenerational mediation, workplace issues and commercial matters. The mediator must not only be properly trained and accredited but must also have awareness across a range of disciplines.

The Mediators' Institute of Ireland is different from other mediation bodies in that we serve as the professional association of mediators. I am a member of the council of the Irish Commercial Mediation Association which, like the MII, is voluntary, but its role is specifically to promote mediation in commercial disputes. Mediators must sign up to a code of ethics and practice on an annual basis in order to have their practising certificate renewed. In other words, practitioners must declare that they will be subject in their work to the code of ethics and practice. Equally, if there is a complaint or a disciplinary issue against a practitioner, he or she will be bound by that declaration. The final requirement for a practising certificate is that one has professional indemnity insurance.

One of the difficulties mediators face in the course of their work is that there is currently no regulation of mediation practice. As such, we are absolutely delighted at the prospect of this legislation. In the absence of regulation, any person, even without training, can set up as a mediator. Depending on the type of mediation involved, one often deals with vulnerable people who are under enormous stress. They require and are entitled to be dealt with by practitioners who are properly trained and abreast of the most up-to-date methods and practices. Moreover, where a mediator makes a mess of a case or behaves inappropriately, customers must have recourse to an independent body that will call the practitioner to account. The volume of complaints to the Mediators' Institute of Ireland is, unfortunately, rising. As such, there is a pressing necessity to have a process in place by which people can be called to account for inappropriate behaviour. Whether a complaint is justified is for the independent panel to decide.

Mediation is an incredibly difficult concept to explain. For instance, colleagues and I are frequently asked whether we meditate, to which one can only reply that some of us do and others do not. The other major difficulty is that mediation tends to get lumped into alternative dispute resolution. While the latter is indeed an alternative to litigation, some of the processes involved are almost identical to litigation. To clarify, litigation and arbitration are two sides of the same coin. Whereas one might describe arbitration as an alternative, it is basically the same as litigation, being highly process-driven, focused on looking at the past and seeking to persuade an independent third party to adjudicate as to which party to a dispute is right. The difference between litigation and arbitration is that in the case of the former, the adjudicator is a judge who may have no background in the subject matter of the dispute, whereas in arbitration, the arbitrator is generally called on the basis that he or she has knowledge of the subject matter. That is seen a good deal in construction cases, for example, where arbitration is quite prevalent and an arbitrator is chosen on the basis of his or her relevant expertise.

The focus in mediation is less on what happened in the past, and we are not concerned with issuing judgments. In short, it is not an adjudicative process and we do not pronounce who is right and who is wrong. That is not to say that the past is not important in mediating a dispute; in fact, it is vital in terms of building the context of the mediation. There is often a cathartic effect for those in mediation in being able to tell their story - what happened to them, when it happened, and the consequences for them of the other party's actions. In some commercial disputes, in particular, it could be the first time the two parties have spoken to each other in a very long time. For instance, I took part in a commercial mediation recently where the dispute arose five years ago, was handed off to the two sets of lawyers and the two parties had not spoken directly to each other, or listened to each other, in all that time. The story-telling aspect is very important in order to ascertain the context of the dispute and for everybody to understand what happened and the issues arising from it. At the end of that story-telling exercise, no blame is apportioned and no adjudication is made. Instead, the focus is on what happens next and how we move forward. It is in this regard that mediation can prove particularly effective, the fundamental principle being that the mediator empowers the parties to begin designing and developing their own solution. They are, after all, the experts in the dispute. Parties may come to the mediation process, particularly in a commercial mediation, with five sets of lever arch files on each side, but it is the individuals themselves who know what has gone on and can look at all the possibilities for resolution. The flexibility in the process allows them to design their own solution.

Thank you, Ms Erwin. We will now have questions from members, beginning with Deputy Dara Calleary.

I thank the delegates for their interesting perspective on this issue. The Mediators' Institute of Ireland is the 11th organisation to make a presentation to the committee. On the last occasion, at which representatives of several groups attended together, there were noticeable differences between them, with some of them seeming to go to great lengths to differentiate themselves from each other. One of my questions to them was who mediates the mediators. I absolutely agree with the delegates today that we must have trained and accredited professionals. In regard to the 60-hour basic skills requirement, is that independently audited by the Further Education and Training Awards Council, FETAC, the Higher Education and Training Awards Council, HETAC, or any other outside agency?

Mr. Gerry Rooney

No, we have our own standard for accreditation. Having done a great deal of research internationally, we found that the 60-hour training requirement provides a solid basis for training mediators. We have an accreditation policy committee which sits regularly and monitors standards as they emerge. Before a training provider can register as a trainer with the MII, it must meet the framework standards as set out on our website, which are quite stringent. We require that those providing training are accredited and experienced mediators in addition to having both the knowledge and skills that are required to assist mediators. Our activity does not fit into a FETAC or HETAC framework because we are not ourselves a training provider. Rather, our role is to oversee the standards.

In the context of the responsibilities that may potentially be assigned to MII under the legislation, would it submit to discussing with FETAC or HETAC the possibility of one or other of those bodies playing some type of role in terms of providing an absolutely independent overview of its courses?

Mr. Gerry Rooney

We would welcome any independent review of the standards we provide. We do not necessarily view mediation skills themselves as requiring a specific academic qualification; for instance, I have trained mediators who are only semi-literate. We would be concerned not to put up barriers that prevent people from gaining skills in mediation. Generally speaking, however, it would be very positive to have a body such as HETAC or FETAC overseeing the implementation of our standards.

I have concerns in regard to Nos. 63 to 66, inclusive, which deal with the capacity of a mediator to walk away from a mediation. As I put it to the other groups, where does this leave the client? All of the power is proposed to be given to the mediator to walk away and perhaps leave the clients stranded. Ms Erwin referred to five lever arch files of documentation. If a mediator is getting into the middle of that and encouraging people to talk to each other for the first time in five years, say, only then to walk away before the process is concluded, that is a cause for concern.

Ms Karen Erwin

I am pleased to have the opportunity to answer that question. It is a tricky one and it concerns a balancing of rights. The Deputy, who has clearly read the paper very well, will know one of the principles and fundamental aspects of mediation is confidentiality. The very reason the parties open up to a mediator is that they know the matter will not go any further. Mediators rarely, if ever, walk away from a case. It would be most unusual for them to do so. To my knowledge, they only do so in the most extreme circumstances. We refer in the paper to just two examples, one of which concerns elder or child abuse and the other of which concerns commercial information from a party in respect of which confidentiality would have to be breached if one were to tell the other party one was leaving because of certain circumstances. With regard to child protection and elder abuse, one is not allowed to tell the other party; one must walk away and report them. A significant set of issues arises in this regard. It is, of course, a matter of balancing rights.

Could Ms Erwin expand on that point?

Ms Karen Erwin

My understanding is that where there is abuse - including family abuse, although I do not practice in that area - one is not allowed to notify the abusing party that one has been made aware of it. To do so might, in itself, result in prejudice and give rise to difficulties. The mediator ought to walk away from the mediation and report to, notify or even ask questions of the relevant authority. It would be completely inappropriate to carry on in the circumstances described, even for the day, with the mediation. One might have to extricate one's self, call for advice and obtain help. Then, if one were allowed, one could return the next day or the day after. However, one would not be able to say to the relevant party, who might be in a different room, why one did what one did. It puts the mediator in the most invidious position possible because he or she is trying to encourage communication and dialogue between the parties.

If I were a mediator in a commercial dispute, according to a model closer to the shuttle model of mediation, and a party told me something that made me realise I had a conflict of interest, I would have to step back professionally from the mediation. The information is given in confidence and, therefore, one would have an inordinate problem going to the other party. While I understand Deputy Calleary's point, I believe it is a question of balancing rights. The Law Reform Commission considered this very closely and accepted the Deputy's point - the public policy point - but ultimately said the only acceptable approach would involve the protection of confidentiality. Fortunately, what the Deputy describes happens extremely rarely.

Given the highly charged circumstances in which mediators work, vexatious complaints could be made against one by a party that does not like the way the process is going. How does one separate a complaint of this kind from a complaint pertaining to a mediator who is not doing his or her job professionally enough?

Ms Karen Erwin

That is an interesting question. We have a complaints committee. When a complaint is submitted, it usually comes to me first, as president. Mr. Rooney will be in this position in November. I listen to the complaint submitted and must then assess whether it is about mediation. In telephone calls I have received from individuals about complaints about mediation, I have heard them refer to an appeal. I tell them there is no appeal in mediation. It turned out the cases concerned facilitation, with which we cannot deal.

At present, we have no screening process that allows us to say a complaint is vexatious and frivolous. Once a claim is legitimately made, in writing and on time, we must deal with it. We must get two outsiders and an independent mediator to adjudicate. If complaints continue at the current rate, that will be difficult.

How many complaints are received annually?

Ms Karen Erwin

We have had about seven over three or four years. Some are complaints that are not upheld and others are complaints that are out of time. Some appear to be complaints but actually are not as they concern something different. One complaint, concerning a breach of confidentiality, proceeded to the complaints panel procedure. It did not give rise to disciplinary action but it might have done. We have had no disciplinary complaints yet but it is only a matter of time.

I thank Ms Erwin for her excellent exposition on the institute and her submission. Given that the institute has been around for a long time and that its work has been to establish a practice of high-quality mediation, I can imagine the challenge that had to be faced over the years. Ms Erwin indicated a number of recommendations in terms of the heads of the Bill. Could she identify one or two of the key strengths of the Bill and a primary weakness or two?

Ms Karen Erwin

I will begin with the second question first because the first obviously concerns quality assurance. My greatest concern - Mr. Gerry Rooney may have different ones - is the lack of confidentiality that could arise, either by giving reports to the court or by having to give people reasons one has pulled away from mediation.

Mr. Gerry Rooney

I concur that confidentiality is a key aspect of mediation. Anything that could affect or challenge that would represent a challenge in encouraging parties to enter mediation.

With the enactment of the legislation, what changes might be required in the practice of the institute?

Ms Karen Erwin

We would have to examine our code of ethics and practice. I do not envisage reducing it but we would obviously have to ensure there was nothing Members wanted in the Bill that was not in our code, thus requiring its inclusion.

Ms Erwin admitted it is difficult to define mediation. At a previous meeting, a number of groups suggested that we should consider mandatory information sessions. Could Ms Erwin give us her opinion on that? She raised concerns about head 4. It was suggested that when parties are signing a statement of consideration, that statement should include the reasons they did not take up the option of mediation. What is the view of the delegation on that?

Ms Karen Erwin

There should be mandatory information sessions. The Law Reform Commission suggested it for separating couples cases. I would go further and stipulate that there ought to be a mandatory information session before issuing proceedings. In that way, one would certainly know the individual had the relevant information.

I make the point about solicitors because I am a solicitor myself. Not all solicitors necessarily know about or practice mediation. What they are giving is some rote definition as opposed to listening to what the case is about and deciding whether it is suitable for mediation, how long it might take and how much it might cost. One is really asking somebody to give an opinion on something about which he may know nothing. It has proved entirely unsuccessful in cases involving separating couples and this is why the mandatory information provision was introduced. Without it, the procedure did not work.

I welcome the delegation and apologise for being late. On the broader issue of the integrity of the mediator, let me address an issue that arises in my job. If a public body or big company hires a mediator, perhaps to facilitate the request of residents in respect of a big local project, is there pressure on that mediator to deliver the result his or her hirer wants rather than to operate in the public interest? There are many infrastructural projects around this country in which roads and footpaths are being dug up, and public bodies often call in a mediator to get rid of the concerns of local residents. That is one issue I have come across both as a councillor and as a Deputy. How does Ms Erwin defend the integrity of mediators in this regard?

Ms Karen Erwin

Inherently, there can be a conflict of interest from the mediator's point of view. This happens with more than just public bodies; it happens every day with organisations that pay mediators to deal with workplace disputes. Company X pays the mediator and then the two parties take part in mediation. It is nice, as a mediator, to bring home a win, which will get one more work from the company. Mediators are trained not to take account of this. Within the mediation room, they must be completely impartial in terms of who is paying them, how and where. It is not relevant within the room. Provided one is mediating and therefore facilitating the parties to come to their own agreement, one does not have as much influence as people might think, because one is facilitating them to come to an agreement. There is always an inherent conflict.

Mr. Gerry Rooney

An inherent part of the mediation process is that the mediator engages the parties in an agreement to mediate in which terms of reference are set, so at the outset the mediator ought to be seen as an honest broker with both parties' interests at heart and not as representing one party or the other. The parties probably will not enter the mediation process unless they all agree to the agreement the mediator crafts with the parties. That is key in demonstrating the independence of the mediator and providing the parties with a process that can give them solutions or opportunities to achieve solutions.

From my experience - I will not name anybody, Chairman-----

Please.

For example, when councils hire mediators, my experience is that although the mediator sits down to meet the residents and deal with all the issues, nine times out of ten the result is in favour of the council. There is a lack of trust among some citizens in this regard. I wonder about that.

Mr. Gerry Rooney

Obviously I cannot answer on any specific issue, but-----

I could tell you, but do not think my Chairman would let me.

Mr. Gerry Rooney

Both research and our own practice inform us that what makes mediation successful - it never fails, perhaps - is the relationship that the mediator builds with the parties. If there is a feeling that a mediator has made a decision on behalf of one party over another, it is probably not mediation, in a real sense, that the parties have been offered. Time and again, it is not the content or expert knowledge of the mediator that is important but the ability of the mediator to build a relationship with the parties and manage the process and the content of the dispute so that all parties are satisfied that their interests are being met. If they are not, the parties decide whether they want to withdraw from the process. We have very high success rates for mediation, but in many cases in which mediation does not result in a resolution, the nature of the dispute may well change, which shows that the parties find the process itself helpful. To return to the core part of the Deputy's question, it is what the mediator sets up at the outset that determines the outcome.

I have one or two questions. Under head 11, Ms Erwin discussed whether the mediated agreement reached by the parties was legally binding and enforceable, and said it might be better to use the word "binding" than the word "enforceable". I ask her to tease this out a little. What would she like to see happening in this regard?

Ms Karen Erwin

I hope I can remember what I said. I know the Chairman wants me to be brief.

It has to do with situations in which parties arrive at a mediated agreement. How binding is it, and how is it enforced?

Ms Karen Erwin

Whether a mediated agreement is binding depends on the mediator and the parties. Personally, what I say in my agreements to mediate is that failing anything else, it will be binding on the parties. I do not talk about enforceability. When the parties are coming to a mediated agreement, they must then decide whether it will be binding on them. Nine times out of ten, it is binding on them. However, "binding" is different from "enforceable", because if it is binding it is similar to a legal contract. If the provisions in the document are breached, a party can issue proceedings - assuming they do not want to go through the mediation process again - for breach of contract. If on the other hand the document is directly enforceable, a party will not have to issue proceedings for breach of contract, because the document itself is enforceable. The concern of the Mediators' Institute of Ireland is that if the documents are made enforceable, we are really limiting mediation only to lawyers. Most mediated agreements are crafted in the mediation process itself and, frequently, signed within the mediation room. The parties may or may not have been represented by lawyers or union representatives, but there is an agreement which is binding on the parties, if that is what they want. However, if the document is enforceable, the recourse is straight to the High Court without breach of contract proceedings, and most mediators will not feel comfortable drafting such agreements. A concern we have about the directive on mediation in civil and commercial matters, which was transposed onto the statutory instrument, is that mediated agreements for cross-border disputes are directly enforceable. I am concerned about this. If documents become enforceable, we will end up having to have solicitors in every mediation - not necessarily when people agree on the heads of an agreement, or a non-binding agreement, but thereafter. The parties will have to take the agreement and go somewhere else, and then, much as happens frequently with separating couples, it will all start to unravel. I think it would be a disservice to mediation if this were to be provided for.

Deputy Calleary asked about the FETAC and HETAC qualifications. Are the certificates issued by the institute internationally recognised, and is there cross-border recognition of certificates from other jurisdictions by the institute?

Mr. Gerry Rooney

It is a general weakness in mediation internationally that there is no overarching body that recognises or certifies mediators per se. Mediators who qualify under the institute are recognised, for example, in Northern Ireland, where people value the MII certification. Mediation bodies in the UK have examined our standards and are trying to copy some of what we have achieved. However, there is no one body internationally that recognises any standard of mediation.

Ms Karen Erwin

There is one body, the International Mediation Institute, of which we are a member and a qualifying reviewer. If a person has MII certification - that is, if we have approved him or her - once he or she has extra hours, he or she may well be approved by that institute. However, as Mr. Rooney said, there is no overarching international body.

Ms Erwin mentioned cross-border disputes. How do they work? I am not talking about Northern Ireland, because she has covered that, but what about disputes between parties in Ireland and another European country? Is there a way of dealing with that?

Mr. Gerry Rooney

There is the EU directive on cross-border mediation across Europe. That has the effect that agreements made in one jurisdiction can be upheld in another jurisdiction, so one does not need to take the route of proving or enforcing them. Ultimately, when the parties choose a mediator, they contract that mediator and there is an agreement to mediate, so they accept the mediator's bona fides in providing that service. That is an acceptable norm internationally. Once the parties agree to the mediator, that sets it up as being a reasonable approach to the dispute.

It was mentioned that there is an onus on mediators to determine capacity, especially in situations involving older people. Could the witnesses expand on that? We dealt with capacity legislation earlier in the year and issued a report on it; I do not know whether the witnesses are aware of that. What are their views in this regard?

Ms Karen Erwin

It is a tricky issue. I am about to receive international accreditation in elder mediation and it is really tricky, so I am aware of the work the committee has been doing. Under that draft legislation, I understand, capacity will be presumed and will be determined on a moment-in-time basis as and when decisions are made. Just because one is incapacitated today does not mean one will be incapacitated tomorrow. A mediator is not qualified to reach a view on whether somebody has capacity, but if there is a presumption of capacity, in my view, the onus is on the mediator to satisfy himself or herself that the person concerned is not demonstrating a lack of capacity. In other words, one accepts the presumption unless one has reason to believe otherwise. The term used in the heads of the Bill is "ensure" - that is, the mediator will ensure - and the mediator cannot do that. We do not have the qualities and qualifications to do that. Under the capacity legislation there are processes that are put in place and supports to help a person to have capacity, to ensure the least prejudicial situation for him or her.

The institute's submission also referred to online mediation, which again brings us to the 21st century, the Internet and so forth. With respect to people who cannot be in the same room, if mediation goes on for a while, confidentiality is an issue. Is online mediation taking place now? Will Ms Erwin comment on that?

Ms Karen Erwin

There is a differentiation between online in a typed format and online on the telephone. I was at a conference last week and reference was made to doing small commercial disputes online. They never see people at all. One party is at this end of the line and the other is at that end. They now have a specialist approved by the British civil service which approves four telephone providers. I have never seen this but I have the name of one. An elder mediation case is an intergenerational mediation where there is a mother or father and a number of siblings. If, for example, the mother is becoming unwell with Alzheimer's dementia and all the family wants to get together to decide how best to look after the parent, somebody could be on a Skype call from Australia and somebody else in America on a conference call. They would be bound confidentiality-wise because they would all have to sign up to the agreement to mediate before they started. Everybody within the mediation has, therefore, signed the agreement to mediate, which allows for that confidentiality.

Confidentiality means different things in different types of mediations. For example, in an elder mediation, if one was going to look at a nursing home, that obviously would not be confidential but other financial elements would be.

Two issues were raised at the previous hearing on the Bill. The first is that mediation is relatively new and unknown among citizens, particularly among businesses and families. The second is the cost of mediation versus the cost of litigation. The committee was informed that there is a huge difference and businesses would benefit significantly from taking the mediation route, yet many do not know about mediation or are unsure or afraid of the process. Could Ms Erwin give us an example of a cost comparison between mediation and litigation? What is happening about informing people regarding mediation services?

Ms Karen Erwin

When one deals with arbitration and litigation because one is asking a judge or an arbitrator to decide, one has to go into all the history and the documents to prove what happened and that takes ages. One must get statements from witnesses and so on. One has to get five lever arch folders. When one is mediating, all one is interested in is what the person has in his or her head at the time and, therefore, one cuts out all the preparation time trying to persuade the judge. I could get a telephone call this afternoon and mediate it next week. At the end of the day, mediation is flexible. There is no court time, papers or stenographers and we can use a hotel meeting room. The parties agree and the mediator sits down and writes out the agreement there and then and it is done. Time is money and significant amounts are saved.

When I gave my presidential address at our last conference, I quoted figures for the amount spent on the Courts Service report on mediation and it was incredible.

Mr. Gerry Rooney

The costs can be significant. Legal costs of €60,000 can be incurred by both parties combined. A day's mediation if the parties are willing to resolve the issues is quantifiable and clear. The MII is proactive in providing information to all communities interested in mediation and dispute resolution. For example, we attend meetings of chambers of commerce and we have briefing pamphlets for different areas of mediation. At our conference last year, Mr. Mark Fielding of ISME attended and he made a strong point that business does not survive without relationships. The benefit of mediation as a dispute resolution process is it allows relationships to continue. Disputes are resolved by the parties maintaining a relationship. The message is slowly becoming more prevalent in the business community that mediation is a way forward.

Mr. Rooney said the typical cost for a group in litigation is €60,000. What is the cost of mediation for a day?

Mr. Gerry Rooney

I would not like to be quoted saying €60,000 is typical. In the example I had, the combined costs of both parties had exceeded €60,000 and when they looked at the potential costs if they carried on, it was high. The MII does not want to declare what the fees would be for this professional service but it would be in the low thousands, perhaps less than €5,000. That is significant.

I apologise for arriving late from another meeting. I welcome the delegation. I would also like to address the issue of costs. Mr. Rooney referred to the combined costs of all parties for one day in litigation. In mediation, are parties typically legally represented or does that depend on the type of mediation? Clearly, they bear their own costs when they are not represented and these would be much lower than the cost of the attendance of solicitors and counsel for court.

Confidentiality was another issue raised at our first hearing on the legislation. Is that enforceable or it is mutually agreed? Would it be a good idea to make an additional provision to enforce the duty of confidentiality?

I am impressed by the online mediation through Skype calls and so on. That is arm length's mediation. That is a huge advance given the costs of court appearances and, for example, the logistical difficulties of bringing all the witnesses physically to one place. That is a huge advantage to emphasise.

Mr. Gerry Rooney

What is happening in the UK regarding online mediation is exceptional. Limited time telephone mediation of an hour is used and there is a high percentage of resolutions for these small cases. That demonstrates a good opportunity for businesses.

Not all cases involve legal representation. It depends on the value of the claim, where the parties have positioned themselves and what is at stake. Increasingly, mediations in which I am involved have lawyers engaged. Whether they attend the mediation depends on the parties. If they engage lawyers, there is a cost. It is invariably agreed in the mediation that both parties agree the costs. I could have responded to this earlier when Deputy McGrath asked which side a mediator takes if both parties are paying. The mediator is less likely to be accused of taking one side or the other. Invariably, if there is an agreement with the parties, the costs are typically asked for in a resolution through a legal route, but when the costs of the mediator are discovered, it is easier for the parties to agree them because they are not as high as the legal costs or going to the Taxing Master. Lawyers are involved. We do not necessarily preclude them per se but the disputes are up to the parties to resolve. Having them engage through the mediation process is where the success lies.

Senator Bacik beat me to the punch. I was going to ask whether mediators mediate in the presence of people's legal representatives. How willing are their legal advisers to expose them to mediation as opposed to litigation or arbitration? I appreciate Ms Erwin is a solicitor. Is there hostility to this approach from conventional legal practitioners? Is there a higher probability of success in mediation in the absence of people being hand-held by their legal advisers?

Ms Karen Erwin

Not necessarily. It depends on the type of mediation. For example, in many of the mediations I do, I keep the parties in the room with me for almost all of the time - it is only if we arrive at an impasse that I would separate them - whereas if I am doing a commercial mediation, they tend to separate much more quickly, although I try to keep them together. Lawyers can be incredibly helpful, particularly in commercial mediations, if they understand the principles of mediation and they are with the mediator. They can do huge volumes of work to the benefit of the parties and, therefore, to the benefit of the resolution of the dispute. Where lawyers are not aware of mediation, do not understand it and see it as a threat to their income, that is more problematic but, as we educate people and mediation is spreading more widely, lawyers are beginning to see its benefits.

The mediation Bill is helping because it is bringing a focus on mediation. There is also case law whereby people might be forced to pay costs if they have not considered mediation. These are all sticks and carrots. We are getting to a point where it will be easier, but there is nothing better than when lawyers are working with us. It is great.

I thank Ms Erwin and Mr. Rooney for their attendance, the information they forwarded to the committee, answering questions and engaging in such a proactive and positive way. This will prove helpful to us in our work. Our plan is to publish a report in a few weeks giving our views on this matter. It will be launched in Leinster House and forwarded to the Minister as per his request. The committee has published a number of reports. I thank the clerk to the committee and his staff, who have been supportive.

The joint committee went into private session at 2.45 p.m. and adjourned at 2.55 p.m., until 3.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 6 June 2012.
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